/lit/ - Literature

Houellebecq's pre-Submission stuff maybe?

>>10974667
No, that sounds gay

>>10974667
probably, but they all got rejected by modern publishers

Schopenhauer pretty much btfo women for all eternity

>>10974667
she grosses me out desu, tits way too big, really grossly gingerish, unhealthy looking complexion

>>10974667
good writers are above that garbage

Neitch, Shopenhower, Airastottel

>>10974687
try again sweaty

>>10974686
>tits way too big

>>10974687
go away, Malkiel, your global agenda isn't welcome here

>>10974672
Submission is full of women shown for what they are/aught to be. I would include it.

>>10974689
>>10974685

>contemporary

so much for reading comprehension

Eliot Roger, Randy Stair, the list could go on

>>10974667
4chan??

>>10974686
your opinions are terrible

Boccacio's your man. He's like a funny rambling Italian at the pizza bar. Contemporary and ahead of us in spirit. True late-medieval bro-tier.

Small taste in Caterina's capture of the nightingale:
http://cdimatteo.com/italian/decameron-day-5-novella-4/

>>10974667

>>10974667
Ways of Seeing?

>>10976733
Randy Stair was a martyr for trans liberation. Rest in Power sister

>>10974667
You could never do anything like that. It would offend women. Besides what would you say? The problem with this topic is that it is so imprecise. We care about the truth. We want to make sure what we say is accurate. What chance then do you think you have against people that do not?

I mean what is toxic masculinity really? Being aggressive or rude toward other people? Being insensitive or brutal? Is this label applied only to men? What happens to a woman who acts like this? Is she exhibiting toxic masculinity? And the male gaze is what? A women's felt sense that men are looking at her, or judging her fitness for procreation? Is this suppose to be damaging to her?

Honestly this sort of thing is so stupid. You are better off devoting your intellectual energies to artistic or scientific pursuits. Just let feminists fester in a swamp of dogma, hatred, and irrationality. It's their preferred climate.

>>10974686
low test

>>10976870
>fighting against nature
why

>>10977738
>grandmommy complex

>>10977265
>I mean what is toxic masculinity really? Being aggressive or rude toward other people? Being insensitive or brutal? Is this label applied only to men? What happens to a woman who acts like this? Is she exhibiting toxic masculinity? And the male gaze is what? A women's felt sense that men are looking at her, or judging her fitness for procreation? Is this suppose to be damaging to her?
Literally all of that is answered if you bothered to read some feminist theory. I don't agree with all they have to say but you describing your stubbornness to engage with their ideas as irrationality on their part is sort of proving a lot of their points.

lol

>>10977765
>Feminist theory used unironicly
What a time to be alive

>>10976811
too 'actorly' in their mannerisms here
what show is this?

>>10974667
>So lots of female writers - explicitly feminist or not - take the piss out of men in a contemporary context (male gaze, chauvinism, toxic masculinity, etc).
Are there any that do it well? I'm not a feminist but I do personally hate masculine men, being a soy boy cuck.

>>10977765
>Literally all of that is answered
Answered a million different ways, sure. I know my feminist theory, sport. If you want any coherence you need to stick with a single feminist author, bud.

>>10974667
in literature no, but the whole sort of sphere of evo psych stuff about women pisses them off so intensely that there's no way it isn't true. Specifically the stuff about them losing all their sexual value after age like 25, about them being addicted to certain sorts of men and then trying to get betas to raise the kids of these men, etc. The howls of rage are the unmistakable sign of unpleasant reality being uncovered.

The closest thing to this I can think of is how somebody like Tolstoy or Lermontov writes his women characters and their relationships. But that is not at all contemporary. I don't think anybody would publish anything honest about that these days

Actually I read this pretty gay book called The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao, by a Dominican, and since the guy is non-white he's allowed to be somewhat honest about what women are actually like, so the book touches on how the gangsters, assholes etc. get the chicks
The guy is still massively cucked though and so frames this all in quasi-feminist terms. We don't really get the perspective of the men in question, except the beta orbiter that the novel centers around

>>10977265
feminist here.

I'm not offended by men talking about the male gaze. If they know what they're talking about, it's highly enlightening.
I find that most of the concepts feminism has come up with were created in order to be precise and accurate about certain dynamics we sometimes see in the world.

>What is toxic masculinity?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity
>Is this label only applied to men?
No, women can experience toxic masculinity too. Men are more likely to be subjected to masculine expectations that can be unrealistic and toxic, but I think the toxic masculinity cultures in certain career paths that are predominantly male end up applying to the women that make it in those fields.

>The male gaze is what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze
It's a part of literary and artistic analysis, not just the sense that we're being looked at IRL. It affects our culture around women and what we think of them when one viewpoint prevails in media representations.
>You are better off devoting your intellectual energies to artistic or scientific pursuits.
The male gaze is an aspect of pretty much all artistic pursuits, whether it engages with or defies the male gaze, since every piece of art has a viewpoint or perspective, and we can analyze that.
Feminism often intersects with scientific pursuits - philosophy of science, biological factors, nature versus nurture debates, etc. I'm a STEM major and feminist stuff has helped me navigate my field.

I looked at a female today, she was really cute. Why am I such a sexist misogynistic pig? Men need to be locked up.

>>10977265
>And the male gaze is what?
Traps

>>10977835

>>10977835
>unrealistic
>toxic

Jesus christ. There is nothing unrealistic or toxic about informing young men that they MUST (as in it's not an option) be able to physically defend themselves and family, provide for themselves and their families, and pass on their genetic nest egg so their existence won't be for naught.

Young men committing suicide? Young men going on mass shootings? Young men feel like children when they are old enough to own homes? This is not the fault of toxic masculinity. This is not patriarchy. This is all the fault of modernity and the relativistic abstractions that have come with it.

>>10977835
The managerial gynocracy wants to reduce humanity to a single indistinct castrated mass of polyamorous wheelchair bound blobs with pink hair.

>>10977835

How do feminists propose of convincing working class people of any of this shit.

>>10977872
>genetic nest egg

>>10977886
by calling them uneducated which ironically gives them justification for calling out their "privilege"

The only thing more inconsequential than a silent woman is a bitching woman.

>>10974667
You could not write about the female gaze, as it would cause mass suicides and divorce/cheating. If men fully understood the female gaze, not only would women further weaponize their sexuality, but sociopathic sexual behavior would increase. No one, besides college aged women with personality disorders, and narcissistic social climbers in the corporate world, cares about what women think of men’s sexuality. everyone, by nature, cares about female sexual behavior, there is nothing more important to a middle status male’s life, than the sexual behavior of the few women he has a chance of fucking or breeding with. Im sorry, if you disagree, look at the number of male vs female ancestors we have. Its not even comparable

>>10977898
Stealing this.

>>10977835
this has to be the dumbest shit I've read in a long time

>>10977886
I'm going down to the country to read 'cat person' and rupi kaur poems to the peasantry

>>10977872
I mean a lot of feminists don't neccesarily believe that those things are the fault of toxic masculinity, but for a feminist I cape for men a lot.

I think the main thing a lot of feminists talk about is that toxic masculinity can cause emotional intelligence issues that cause them to be more likely to be abusive. I don't really like that they choose to ignore the struggles men face.

Personally, I think that view that you need to provide for others and be physically able to defend oneself to just be a view of western ideas, they're not neccesarily real life. We all have different abilities and if we expected every man to be able to beat up a bear or whatever, Kubrick or Scriabin or any other number of amazing artists would be doing that instead of making art. It's a very boring life, if your expectation of success is to procreate and raise children.

>>10977894
yeah I hate it when other feminists do that shit. My biggest pet peeve is when other feminists appeal to academic authority.

>>10977926
how about you just stop being a fucking feminist, its a title that commands very little respect nowadays....not really something you would want to advertise. Even you admit it's cancer. just get on your life and stop complaining, men and women both have their challenges.

>>10977935
in other words try thinking for yourself

>>10977926
We dont have the fucking room or time for 1 bajillion artists. Many things you take for granted requires extremely hard work.

>>10977874
yeah, I know some feminists like that. I'm personally not a gender abolitionist, so I really enjoy varied gender expressions myself.
>>10977935
nah

>men and women both have their challenges
true, that's not incompatible with feminism though

>>10977940
yeah, I don't think we all need to be artists. I mean I'm a STEM major who works in computer science and does martial arts.
but I don't think every man needs to be a father of 15 children who spends his whole life defending his family and property

>>10977940
what's the point of it all, all this 'extremely hard work', if it only entails more hard work?
what is the point of civilization if not the making possible of cultural achievement?

>>10977943
but why though? literally anyone can say "I'm a feminist" and expect to automatically get rewarded and praised for it. All it does is severely limit your dating pool, because no strong man wants to go out with a self-described feminist. Because for 90% of men, when they hear a woman describe themselves as a feminist, their immediate thought is "shes probably a megacunt, run away"

>>10977926
It's me, >>10977872. I understand where you are coming from, but come on. No one has to beat up a bear. No one has to beat anyone up. But they could at least try. And emotional intelligence? I know a lot of strong, hard working, patently stoic men who are emotionally mature/adept. However, they don't base their entire being around it. Also, to a feminism, emotional intelligence usually comes down to being overwhelmingly compassionate to a fault.

>>10977946
to eat, shit, and fuck?

>>10977960
reddit, leave now. you weren’t surprised, you weren’t asking a question, you’re a fae degenerated mutant imp and you need to leave

Presumably, male writers are more engaged with writing literature and not resentment fueled garbage that they can pat themselves on the back for.

>>10977946
Because we arent even close to the era of automated maintenance for you to further enjoy your shitposting on an anonymous indonesian bug farming simulator forumn.

>>10977963
>he thinks im from reddit

>>10977946
yeah I mean I personally enjoy working hard if it enables other people to make cool stuff
art is actually another form of labor that helps enable others to chill out and be happier, which allows us to do other work

>>10977957
Oh yeah, definitely. The "beat up a bear" line was a bit of hyperbole. Personally, I find value in self defense as well, but I don't think it's something that needs to be expected of all men. And yeah, I think strong, hard working, stoic, emotionally mature men are awesome. I know plenty. I've observed that a lot of men in my life have reported having hangups about emotional issues due to expectations put on them though. A lot of guys with a high degree of emotional intelligence that I've known have reported that they had to overcome some of the expectations of masculinity in order to get there.

Hm, I think a lot of women are compassionate to a fault, but the feminism I've seen actually suggests not doing that. I think sometimes it actually gets to the point of cruelty. I think it's a feminine quality to be intensely compassionate, not necessarily a feminist one.
For instance, the fight to get women to stop doing so much unpaid labor in relationships, particularly emotional labor, is one that asks women to be less compassionate to a fault.
>>10977956
I'm usually highly skeptical of most people who say they're a feminist because feminism is so varied. I think the thing about getting automatic praise for saying you're a feminist is kind of a liberal thing.
I don't need my dating pool to be less limited, I'm polysaturated right now.

>>10977991
Tyrone AND Jamal? Damn, you must be bad!

>>10978005
>not having a panracial kitchen table polyamorous BDSM book club commune
what kind of anti-hedonism is this

>>10974700
Based Bernie

>>10977971
i don't enjoy this

>>10978017
THEY PROBABLY ALL UNDER 5'8 LUL

>>10978025
well it's all women so mostly, yes

it's a good life being the lone top in a world of bottoms
anti-feminists miss out on a ton of anal if they refuse to date feminists

nietzsche but he actually believes in it. thats what makes it funny though

>>10978034
anal sex is awful
it stinks and feels like nothing
like poking into a sheet of greasy elastic

>>10978047
sounds like you need to date better women

>>10978034
Why do feminists like getting fucked in the ass?

>>10977991
The reason I hate feminists is because I view them as power hungry nyt bureaucrats who want to control every aspect of our lives and reprogram everyone into this alien totalitarian ideology

>>10978063
sounds like you need to actually engage in anal intercourse rather than larping about it on the internet you silly faggot
there is little variation in the anatomy of the anus across the population
a 'better woman' isn't going to have more constrictive mucous membranes, nor is she going to be less likely to shit out of her ass

>>10978073
sex positivity is extremely mainstream feminist these days, so exploring different kinds of pleasure is a big part of the body and desire politics that feminism deals with
part of it is also reclaiming power dynamics resulting in wanting men to dominate them in bed in a way they're comfortable with, and do more to be up front with their desires.
>>10978080
I don't really get how your image relates to your post other than being NYT. Discussions and understanding of consent is a pretty important issue with enjoying yourself and having good sex, which is pretty liberating and human.
>>10978090
changes in diet help with a lot of that
soak your lentils before eating them

>>10978106
You are creating a society of total surveillance in which every aspect of our culture and our sexuality is dictated by a secular priesthood managerial shitlib bureaucrats and no dissent is allowed

>>10978112
>addressing none of what the other person said
based shitposter

>>10978106
>Discussions and understanding of consent is a pretty important issue with enjoying yourself and having good sex,
this is wildly untrue though women like being raped

>>10978106
oh, soaking your lentils redirects excrement to other parts of the body?
doesn't sound very healthy
soaking your lentils adds structural muscle to an area that did not have it before? or does it rigidify the membrane of the colon?
neither sounds particularly healthy nor desirable, either

>>10978119
Good shitpost.

>>10978106
Shitlibs are christians except the substitute Christ for a sniveling pink haired gender blob and all the sacraments for abortion and sodomy

>>10978118
degenerate fag is still degenerate, surprise

>>10978119
yikes

>>10978125
Yeah I mean I'm all for abortion and sodomy but libs need to chill the fuck out. Most of them are still christian but I agree that their relationship with feminism is basically a sort of social identity that's unhealthy and borders on religious

https://youtu.be/cUykjJLs4D4

>>10978150
based discordian poster

>>10977835
>Everything is nurture nothing is nature.
Brainlet.jpg

>>10974667
no because any guy smart enough to do so properly will just use his knowledge to have a great relationship with his wife or date a bunch of hot girls at once instead of being a gayboy partisan for 4chan incels

>>10978193
>he’s not aware of feminists biopolitics
real NEET incel hours

>>10977943
>I really enjoy varied gender expressions myself.
What exactly does this mean?

>>10978222
My feminists philosophy includes a respect and appreciation for many different ways of expressing masculinity or femininity. I don’t want androgynous pink haired clones. It’s not my kind of feminist to tell people they can’t be lumberjacks, leather daddies, gothic lolitas, princesses, whatever.

>>10974667
I keep clicking on this thread in the catalog to watch the gif. I'm lonely.

>>10977792
that's clearly a theater piece, brainlet

>>10977905
>You could not write about the female gaze, as it would cause mass suicides and divorce/cheating
God, are you fearful

>>10976811
Who is she?

>>10976811
Yours are worse. She's gross.

>>10978257
I had to read a lot of feminist theory for my gay education so I know that a lot of concepts are completely misinterpreted by anti-feminists and feminists alike. As a relatively level-headed representative for feminism, how do you feel about the fact that your movement has been co-opted by absolutely retarded libfems who use it as a tool for gibs?
These womanchildren aren't fit to wield the power that comes with all these victim cards they're sitting on today. I think it's your duty to set them straight.
I tried to talk to this histrionic roastie about difference feminism and gender essentialism. She just shook her head and said "that's not feminism". Turns out that all she knew about her own ideology comes from Buzzfeed articles and shitty pamphlets on campus.
FIX THIS!

>>10978295
yeah, obviously
you know what we call 'theater pieces' 'in the biz'?
fucking shows
what fucking show is it?

>>10974686
>tits way too big

Punching down is bad form, my friend. I'm sure you could find some criticisms if you really stretched but there's really no point in doing so.

Unless you really hate women for some reason.

Do you hate women?

THIS GUY HATES WOMEN!

It's going to be a lot harder for anyone to take men that do this seriously. Storytime:

>Be me in an intensive two-week writing seminar a few years ago
>We all go to a poetry reading
>Halfway through, overweight young man with a ponytail and patchy facial hair walks into venue, takes the mic
>Reads poem about how he hates women his own age
>They aren't mature enough and never challenge him
>He likes older women, because they're not corrupted like his generation is
>He watches obscure movies that modern girls don't understand, like The Graduate
>Strides away from microphone
>Doesn't sit down to listen to anyone else's work
>Goes outside to hit on the green-haired, 40 something barista on a break, who soon comes back inside
>He starts smoking on a bench outside watching the modern girls give readings through the glass

>>10977265
This is literally the dumbest shit ever, kill yourself

more ginger cowtit 60s waifu pls

>>10974672
>The despair comes from saying good-bye to a civilization, however ancient. But in the end the Koran turns out to be much better than I thought, now that I’ve reread it—or rather, read it. The most obvious conclusion is that the jihadists are bad Muslims. Obviously, as with all religious texts, there is room for interpretation, but an honest reading will conclude that a holy war of aggression is not generally sanctioned, prayer alone is valid. So you might say I’ve changed my opinion. That’s why I don’t feel that I’m writing out of fear. I feel, rather, that we can make arrangements. The feminists will not be able to, if we’re being completely honest. But I and lots of other people will.
Houellebecq chooses Islam over feminism.

Roasties BTFO.

>>10977746
Anything a human can do is within their nature.

>>10974667
>lacks any knowledge of power struggles
plz gtfo

>>10978583
my goddess

>>10978615
you're a faggot

>>10974678
Under irrigated post

>>10978994
>only reading the Koran and neglecting the Hadiths
what a moran

>>10976870
Why is that guy's cock on sideways?

the real question is how are roasties of today going to cope? in 15 years they will look back at the 5,000-10,000 photos of their young beautiful days and then look in a reflection and see wrinkles and lines and fat faces. im already seeing a trend in the ones who hit the wall, they start "deleting" all of their public photos as some kind of mass purging and erasure of their past. but you know they keep them offline and look at them with a combined mixture of disgust, lust and regret.


we've never had this happen before in human history, when women could visibly see themselves age. and visibility is everything in a world where words have lost all meaning. so, whats going to happen? mass suicide? mass capital towards age reversal surgeries? masks that display their younger faces in some ghastly 3d overlay?

>>10979970
If someone is that insecure about their appearance there's nothing society can do to help them.

>>10978994
>>10979727
yo there was a guy on here awhile ago, or maybe it was some other board--/int/ or /pol/ or something--but he was claiming to have thoroughly studied all the principle islamic texts--the koran, the hadith, etc etc--and he was relentlessly excoriating the whole thing with what seemed like valid citations. all the while he was batting off these interlopers trying to call him a fraud and a liar and what have you, to which he would respond with yet more scriptural and exegetical references on taqiya etc
it was great
anybody happen to have copy-pasta'd that exchange?
or have a link to the archived thread?

>>10979970
You are clueless about women and society in general, and it shows. Nigger what kind of person doesn't see, or feel themselves age? Or do you really think humanity suddenly gained the ability to see when you're not noticed anymore, when men start treating you like an aunt? Or men who keep acting like playboys well into their 40s and are laughed at by the young girls who they used to impress? Dealing with your physical decay is a stepping stone to aging gracefully (or being a bitter cunt).
I honestly wonder how much time have you spent dealing with such women IRL versus thinking about them. I cannot take you niggers seriously

>>10979708

Who is she??

>>10980384
Christina Hendricks.

>>10980170
>t. roastie

>>10979708
Keep chasing grandmas.

>>10976811
>tfw no tittiemonster waifu to smother you in her sweet flesh melons.

i dislike women

You just have to read books from that perspective. I doubt any sensible man could finish The Bell Jar without despising women, nor do I think even the cruelest and most sadistic men are capable of successfully emulating the perspective of a woman.

>>10980810
>I doubt any sensible man could finish The Bell Jar without despising women
Why would reading a book written by a young woman make you despise all women? That doesn't seem like a sensible conclusion. In fact that seems (quite ironically, given the subject) like overly emotional irrationality.

>>10974700
>americans

>>10980816
Like all women, she sees men who aren't up to her standards as less than human. They're immeasurable yet subtle cruelty is better expressed in that book than anything else I can think of.

>>10980740
>tfw it never got made

>>10980822
>she sees men who aren't up to her standards as less than human. They're immeasurable yet subtle cruelty
Read this greentext back to yourself slowly and ask yourself if the that stance you've taken sounds at all similar.

>>10980830
Not sure what you're getting at. The poster you're replying to sounds like a total gentleman to me.

I'd maybe even go so far as to say a supreme gentleman.

>>10980830
Any frustrations I have with that sex is a response to the repeated cruelty they've shown to me.my attitude lacks the sadistic element inherent to the female gaze.

>>10977835
so you agree feminism and scientific pursuits are heading in different directions and only sometimes intersect, implying crossing, implying divergence.

do you concede that your project would be called humanism if you really wanted equality, and the reason it's called feminism is because your deepest thinkers were petulant womanchildren and lonely spinsters rolled into one unfuckable package. i mean, i don't know what childbirth means to a woman, given it's the one thing that makes you unique and special, but i can tell you most guys would kill themselves if their dicks didnt work, to CHOOSE to not use your dick gives us interesting aberations, like religion and mystical experiences.

what exactly had the feminist eunich contributed so far? Should we give you another few hundred years to build up to your orgasmic contribution? or should we assume ur brainwashed ideologues.

>>10980837
At the very least, I'm not a virgin, so I can't be all that supreme.

> - explicitly feminist or not -

>>10980838
Try to say that women dehumanize all men as you dehumanize all women doesn't logically follow. It's only more of the same. A constant merry-go-round of egotism and denial, masquerading as justified righteousness.

If you've gone through some bad times with women that sucks, and I know how shitty some of them can be for sure, but use it as a learning tool to make sure that you never become like that. You get to decide what kind of man you become. Not them.

>>10977835
I feel like most people annoyed/offended by the term toxic masculinity feel that those who use the term see all of masculinity as negative, rather than only the toxic traits. and often they are right, as it is frequently misused in this way. wishing to be reliable and wanting to protect your household are not bad traits, but being condesending, insecure and overly agressive are. i think most conservatives would even agree on those being negative traits, yet the term has become incredibly polarizing.

>>10980852
the whole fuckin gender evolved for duplicity and subterfuge through mixed reproductive strategies, woman is the predator of man

>>10980855
My problem with the term is that it isn't for women or feminists to define what healthy masculinity is.

>>10980876
Could you please stop being so bitter and remember that you're the one that actually has the final say as to what quality of man you become? Stop being a victim.

>>10980905
having to share the world with vampires is a legitimate tragedy

>>10980908
Yeah, but if you let a bite from one of them change you and turn you cold then you'll become a vamp too.

A cheesedick analogy, but I had to.

Men Are Better Than Women by Dick Masterson

>>10980933
It touched me. I'll do my best.

>>10977265
>Just let tumours fester in a swamp of metastasis, pain, and death. It's their preferred climate.

>>10977898
>>10977906
Me too

>>10980852
>Try to say that women dehumanize all men as you dehumanize all women doesn't logically follow. It's only more of the same. A constant merry-go-round of egotism and denial, masquerading as justified righteousness.
Word salad

>>10981109
based wordsalad poster

>>10981138
based basedposter

>>10980900
of course men should not be excluded from the discussion for being men, but the same holds true for women.
they are 50% of the population and with that 50% of the discourse. It is a bad practice to lump all women together in one group and somehow assign a set of general opinions to the group that are somehow supposed to be different from men. for example a woman finding your behaviour condesending and unpleasant is just as valid as a friend at the gym calling you insecure and arrogant.

>>10981109
>Word salad
That's only three sentences with an easily discernible sentiment. It isn't word salad. You're just triggered by it and need an excuse to ignore it.

>>10981156
>thinks he can read thoughts over the internet
>understands or posts word salad
Based schizophrenic

>>10974667
>>10974673

>No, that sounds gay

This is a good point. If you want examples of male writers criticizing women in the same catty way that some female writers criticize men, you need to look at homosexuals. They can be just as nasty, if not more so.

Herewith a couple of examples. (O.P. emphasized *contemporary* writers but I'm going to ignore that. Restricting oneself culturally to the last five minutes is the mark of a perpetual adolescent and anyone so doing needs to be shamed out of it.)

>Somerset Maugham, Three Fat Women of Antibes
Maugham wrote some decent short stories but he is almost always ungenerous and waspish towards women. (Like most surfers of the Marmite wave, he hated women because they stole the young men he wanted for himself.)

>E.F.Benson, Mapp and Lucia
Benson wrote a series of six light comic novels about a 50-ish-year-old woman called Lucia who lives in a little village & is obsessed with her social status as the "queen bee". Later she moves to a slightly larger town and encounters a similar woman called Mapp. They fight for supremacy.

>>10974667
Probably but they're all virgin losers who won't get published

>>10980841
Crossing doesn't imply divergence.
Humanism versus feminism has the sort of equity versus equality thing going on with it, and I think a lot of feminism probably falls under humanism - but it could just be humanistic studies of the power dynamics that women deal with. Feminist concepts like the male gaze and unpaid labor aren't contradictory with humanist concepts as I understand it.
>>10980855
Yeah, I agree. My dad is masculine without being toxic about it, for example. He taught me to do martial arts not as like a pissing contest or to encourage violence, but rather to teach discipline and how to better oneself. Seems masculine, but not in a toxic way.
>>10980900
I think women should be allowed to say how they're affected by it - but my experiences with how I understand masculinity to be toxic are largely based on what the men in my life have self reported.
>>10978854
I prefer to let them wear themselves out. It's not really worth it to yell at people not to do that when they're emotionally invested in it, especially because much of that is because they've suffered literal abuse. I do that with dudes too caught up in their masculinity too, I'm not gonna challenge it if it's going to make them resent me for it. I prefer to lead by example and I find that a lot of different kinds of people come to me to talk or ask me about why I do things the way I do, and it fosters less resentment than trying to fix other people or deciding it's my "duty" to set anyone straight.

>>10981269
>this heated for no reason
Jog on mate.

>>10976870
Dude, the man whoms view that is seems to be gay... ^.^

Seriously though, thats some pretty cringeworty incel-shit you got going there mate...

>>10981805
From reading your responses to other anons, it comes off here as you're morally set to correct actions you yourself deem negative for the collective under the guise of an ideology, yet levelheaded and cool about the stance.

I like your type. Could use more of those, spite not agreeing on the ideas and concepts.

>>10974667
>Are there any *contemporary* male writers who do a similar critique against women?
>critique

other than 'manosphere' shit (and even then not really) no and there shouldn't be, not in the specific sense you mean.

this word "critique" comes from critical theory, at least in the sense it is widely used. its academic jargon from bad highly-politicized modern/pomo litcrit. it implies a specific and very limited way of looking at a given subject, and ironically that the writer is likely an over-socialized conformist.

notice how one of /lit/'s main functions is for male arts students to vent their angst at having to read leftist critical theory at school. but our few woman posters are like 2/3rds critical theory fans. that isn't a coincidence.

don't use ANY of their words - "critique" "praxis" "discourse" "empowerment" etc. or at least understand if you are using them, since a few of them have neutral applications, that they come with ideological baggage from critical theory and will exert subtle mind control if u use them unconsciously

>>10982572
p.s. 'critique' is obviously a canon philosophical term ('critique of pure reason') but its been badly coopted at this point. high overlap of affinity for it and critical theory

The first 10 pages of any book on Male psycology
>Robert Moore with King Warrior Magician Lover
>Robert Bly with Iron John: A book about Men
Their shitting is more polite though.

>>10982407
Well, I want to correct my own actions. I empathize with the reason that others act in other ways - I don't think it's ethical to sit there and tell them they're wrong for how they feel, even if I don't agree, because that's usually coercive.

http://www.masculinityresearch.com/five-stages-overview/0/
This might be relevant to the thread. At stages 4 and 5, feminists stop being assholes about masculinity, it's just something we talk about.

>>10982572
Basically /lit/

>>10982684
could you please return to reddit where you belong instead of contaminating us with reddit posts

>>10977801
>a million different ways
Can you name some and their relevant authors?

Sometimes I wish I had a course in university I could take to teach me all the times that I say "sorry" too much.

Honestly, I've heard that anecdote so frequently from my female peers. "I learned in my Women's Studies class how often I say 'sorry' when things aren't my fault."

What level of privileged prejudice are they operating on?

>>10982853
>What level of privileged prejudice are they operating on?
maybe reflect on how this question applies to you, yourself, before casting it at others

>>10982853
Take a leadership and communication course.

>>10982859

Are you suggesting that I spend my free time browsing /lit/ without having applied philosophical principles to my own life?

It's genuinely indefensible to argue that a biweekly seminar in White Middle-Class Victimhood matches the level of rigor demanded by a university education. They're presuming to study gender dynamics in society by way of enrolling themselves in a specifically gendered discourse.

>>10982862

Brutal.

>>10982886
again, you are refusing to interrogate yourself, and are instead searching about beyond for some object to pathologize
if you are not prepared to excavate your own cave, maybe you could start with an obvious question: why, exactly, would so many of your 'female peers' be struck by this revelation that they do, in fact, find themselves apologizing for things they have no reason to apologize for--like voicing an opinion in a context in which opinions are being shared. what does that say about not only their personal psychologies--which are never separable from social and other objective determiniations--but of the kinds of people they must keep company with, those to whom they feel the need to apologize.

>>10974667
>Are there any *contemporary* male writers who do a similar critique against women?
Charlie Puth
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfs8NYg7yQM

>>10980024
don't know what you're talking about but it sounds cool

Girls are good mmmkay

what's the deal with proponents of critical theory not being critical about critical theory

>>10982908
Again, no I'm not.

You're refusing to read my fucking argument—that it's impossible to engage in an academic critique by focusing solely on one half of the issue. Rarely do you find men struck by similar realizations that, for example, at no significant point in history has anyone without a Y chromosome ever been subject to military draft.

I'll restate my point just in case you feel the need to misinterpret me again: a space which encourages discourse on specifically one side of the issue will not reach the level of rigor demanded by an educational institution. Critique must be well-rounded. University is not meant to be home to a self-congratulatory circle jerk à la, "let's list all the reasons I felt oppressed this week." Echo chambers are the antithesis to intellectual argument.

It's as absurd to hear, in an academic setting, "I learned that I say 'sorry' too much" as it would be to hear, "my Men's Studies class taught me about my toxic masculinity today—I guess I need to work on that."

Are you going to misinterpret my point again?

>>10974667
"Friday evening I was invited to a party at a colleague from work's house. There were thirty-odd of us, all middle-management aged between twenty five and forty. At a certain moment some stupid bitch started removing her clothes. She took off her t-shirt, her bra, and then her skirt, and as she did she pulled the most incredible faces. She twirled around in her skimpy panties for a few seconds more, and then, not knowing what else to do, got dressed again. She's a girl, what's more, that doesn't sleep with anyone. Which only underlines the absurdity of her behavior.'

>>10982981

Addendum: I mean, Christ, if a grown-ass woman can blatantly misuse words like "misogyny," applying them to every fucking instance of a man saying a mean thing to a woman, with impunity and without censure from the professor, what the fucking kind of environment is this? No, Claire, the police officer in the novel you read is not implicitly sexist because he investigated the wife's potential motive for killing her husband.

This goes doubly for male professors who are so goddamn afraid of being called sexist that they'll genuinely say "C-word" to avoid saying "cunt."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Snowflake

>>10982981
what you are doing is disguising your own resentment as an institutional critique
what is worse is that you are representing this as born from personal experience, where it is obviously just borrowed polemic
i don't disagree that the university is basically an advanced, specialized, and very expensive daycare system
but i also think you are arguing from a position of extremely bad faith
and so i'm calling you out on it

>>10983037

"The crux of your argument is logically indisputable, but I'm going to continue giving you my unrelated personal opinions."

Sounds good. I particularly appreciate your unfalsifiable claims regarding the validity of my personal experiences. I think we can drop it here.

>>10974667
>So lots of female writers - explicitly feminist or not - take the piss out of men in a contemporary context (male gaze, chauvinism, toxic masculinity, etc).
Lots of male writers do that too, though often without using the buzzwords, just check out an episode of any cheesy sitcom from the last 40 years.

>is there a concept of a "female gaze" that male writers have written about?
No because most men would like to be gazed at by as women.

>>10976844
>bro-tier
now i have no desire to read him
>>10978488
No, I am not fearful of anything but Life Satan.

The female gaze is sexual selection itself, if men understood it en masse and women were aware of its utility and social power there would be an incredible tumult in the mating market and lots of lower status males would kill themselves, women would go nuts with sexual behavior and society would basically fall into a sexual stasis, or socio-sexual arms race.

Men can be accentuated publicly, you can campaign against or for male sexuality. Female sexuality is immolationist, it is totally emulsifying and will capture, digest and annihilate the psyche of the species. Male and female are not the same. Men rape with their gaze, women castrate. Castration is worse than rape and this is why there are more female ancestors than male.

Goodbye

>>10982572
>>10982572

>Are there any *contemporary* male writers who do a similar critique against women?

it's not really a critique of women, but a critique of post war managerial liberalism(which has effectively subsumed feminism since the 70s). Based Jew Paul Gottfried studied critical theory under Herbert Marcuse back in the 60s, but he ended up a far right paleoconservative. What if the liberal comittement equality is undermining the bases of liberalism itself?

>Much of the gap reflects an enduring tendency to discriminate on the basis of hours worked
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/20/the-guardian-view-on-the-gender-pay-gap-enough-excuses-time-for-action

>http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/253614/is-feminist-lemonade-kosher


60s feminists didn't want equality with unfree men, but 'liberation', whatever that meant. Gramsci didn't know, when you march through the institutions, the institutions march through you too. The liberal classes have been reduced to passive narcissism, they don't have convictions, only hollow snark and creeping sense of guilt disguised as smug superiority. The sons and daughters of the 60s wound up inhabiting a world of monolitic neo-coldwar bureaucracies, more intrusive than the ones the hippies rebelled against and no you don't even get a house in the suburbs either, everything is perfectly 'rational' and 'egalitarian' as long as you don't stray far away from the HR department. trapped between Hobbes and Disney. All the bonds that held us together, family community, religion are dissolved into nothingness. You identity will be assigned to you by a faceless bureaucratic body. There are no people in here, only quantities and labels. Donald Trump represents the petty bourgeoisie reaction to managerial liberalism. Gottfried knew it would be incoherent and it would make no sense. But neither does liberal egalitarianism. It can only end with the grotesque spectacle of YAS KWEEN Hillary celebrating historic drone strikes, the first woman to push the nuclear button.

>>10983116
>The most interesting of all possibilities is that those 10 novelists were the best available, chosen strictly on merit. In a given year such a heavily disproportionate outcome is entirely possible. Indeed, given the strong preponderance of women studying the humanities, and the consistent gaps in verbal achievement that have always favored women over men, it would be surprising that an unbiased assessment would not start to yield outcomes skewed toward the gender that buys and reads—and increasingly writes and reviews—most works of fictions. There are reasons other than favoritism, corruption, trolling, or ideological zeal for disparate outcomes of this sort. To the extent that the choices were honestly arrived at, and not an assertion of power, they should not be questioned. Were they or weren’t they? If they were arrived at honestly and are to be defended in those terms, one has committed oneself to the principle that other such disparities, innocent of corruption of favoritism, are also possible, indeed inevitable. When you say that math scores should be equalized through measures intended to benefit women, while also insisting it’s fair to shut men out entirely from a different area strictly on the basis of merit, you put yourself into a contradiction that can only be resolved honestly by stipulating that all that matters is identity. If they were not arrived at honestly and were instead mere trollish retribution against the sons for the sins of their fathers, be conscious of the full implications of adopting the view that only power matters and that fairness is merely a mystification serving the interest of the stronger. You may soon enough discover that fairness is not only the just but the only prudent policy when others begin to take you at your word.

>>10982684
ahahaha what a fake post
i bet you were nodding and thinking "yes... this is all true... those damn reactionaries" reading it lmao

>>10982956
critical theory is so fucking unbearable to read precisely because it is constantly critically reflecting its own position. just read the dialectics of enlightment by Adorno and find out. But then again shitposting would be so much harder, wouldn't it?

>>10983171
>it is constantly critically reflecting its own position
it is doing nothing of the sort. it halfheartedly feigns this sort of self-awareness but doesn't ever criticize it's 'side' the way it criticizes anything it sees as being traditional or right-wing

>>10982908
most of my female peers are idiot narcissists, can't say that the men are any better, but 99% of modern feminism amounts to the endless glorification of narcissism, go 'indulge' yourself on a candy bar you cunt, check out this microagression listicle on a women's interest content farm, made specially for you and 50% of the human race/consumers.

>>10983067
polemic isn't argumentation and anyway, as i said, i am not nor did i start out with disputing the thesis, which you falsely present as your own, that education-as-interest-group-alignment is contrary to the spirit of genuine inquiry
i do challenge the notion that there is nothing to the experience of young women that find some self-enlightenment in their course work, wherever it happens to come from--a seminar on 'women's studies' or a reading of èmile or day-dreaming during econometrics
you want to reduce the totality of their education--a very nebulous thing, especially given the diffuse and unanchored curriculum most undergrads are milled through, and difficult for anyone who's been through it to summarize--to just this singular personal insight, because you can wield it as both example and explanandum for 'everything that is wrong with the education system today'
but the problem is not 'women' or 'women's studies' or whatever; it's vastly more complicated than that

>>10981144
>It is a bad practice to lump all women together in one group and somehow assign a set of general opinions to the group that are somehow supposed to be different from men.
I don't think so. Their genital cavity seems to correspond with a moral one. He social behavior encouraged by the shape of the female sex organs is vile.

>>10977765
Feminist theory is anti-reproduction, therefore it should be invalid in any healthy society.

>>10983220
I sometimes think of the n word and start laughing hysterically because I know I am free from the NWO's psychopolitical mechanisms of control. I might look like a middle class white to the outside observer, but inside i am not human, but a wolf. AWOOOO!

>>10974667
>

>>10977905
You need to become redpilled badly. Women will fall over themselves to fuck an average man if he carries himself like an alpha.

>>10974667
>tfw libshits and feminists won't be able to stop the rising tide of the coming neorreactionary movement no matter how much they 'snark' and use the terms 'dudebro' and 'garbage person'

>>10979727
Actually he is based
The jihadist are idiots because not only are they literalists they give more credence to Hadiths aka 200 year old persian Chinese whispers

>>10977835

>>10977835
>What is toxic masculinity?
>>10977265

>>10977966
Yep, this.

>>10978141
>I'm all for abortion and sodomy

>>10978141
If feminism is a religion, then baby i'm a satanist. my reactionary opinions stem from this inborn, irrepressible lust for blasphemy. My whole identity is based on my sense of abjection from society. If this was the 1950s i'd be an anarchist, I would denounce God and preach the creed of debauchery. But I was born in the wrong century. I am certain of two things and two things only: the fundamentally evil nature of the universe and the fundamental stupidity of Woman.

>>10974667

OP here, this thread is disappointing and I should've known.

>>10977801
have you ever read any academia on medicine or law or quantum physics? There hardly ever is any consensus. Also dissenting opinions is a great thing not a downside

>>10983694
this is code for 'everything we produce is worthless'

>>10980170
Of course, already Freud wrote at lengths about the situation when a woman realizes he daughter, instead of her, now suddenly became the object of desire. But this anon has a point: Previously, did didn't have daily selfies of themselves with perfect skin.

also
>implying you can't fuck 20 year olds off tinder with 40 as a man today

>>10983792
>Freud
as if this was some insight original to Freud and not present since the fucking Pleistocene

>>10983792
Who is this I'm in love

>>10977935
why are you so fucking mad bro

>>10983290
(You) do not understand biology at all and have been tricked by the affective-casino of social media. There is no replacement for good bone structure, height and big dick. Please understand I’m trying to help you people. I only ever post to be of service to anons

so what are the good recs itt for understanding the female use of sex for power?

could you guys for once tone it down on the woe is me

>>10984073
>so what are the good recs itt for understanding the female use of sex for power?
Real world experience? At least that way you'll be out and about upping your real world experience points instead of staying inside reading. Don't listen to book nerds rant about women and especially don't waste any of your time reading any of the books that they recommend.

>>10984073
i don't know about 'understanding' but
antony and cleopatra
madame bovary
lysistrata
various chunks of the old testament
and on and on

>>10984102
>don't waste any of your time reading
WHY ARE YOU HERE

>>10984102
>>10984115
This is what I mean. Dude literally recommended Madame Bovary and parts of the Old Testament. If I didn't know any better I would say this was a parody of nerds, but I know it isn't.

Don't listen to this board on women. Fly fast and far from us.

>>10984073
just look at women on tindr and when they go out and at parties and at nice restaurants, and look at them at school. its extremely obvious they leverage their beauty and “fragility” for social status and resources, attention and pleasure near constantly. all you need is a vaguely attractive face, tits and hips, that’s it. a muscular manlet with a vaguely attractive face and a nice dick is not getting even remotely the same ressources for what he has to offer. and that’s all there is to say

>>10984132

>>10974667
I really fucking hate women, but I think I hate the so called LGBTSJW community even more, together with Jews I suspect they are the ones behind all this Cultural Marxist White Genocide stuff, women are merely misled

>>10984147
Don't get mad at me because I'm telling anon to put the books down where women are concerned and get out into the real world to learn firsthand. That's what you should be telling him too.

>>10984208
okay but this isn't /adv/
it's /lit/
and the request was for literature recommendations
so please
off yourself

>>10977835
I unironically love that most of the replies either assblasted reiterations of anti feminist ideology that don't directly respond to anything written in this or meme pics that serve the same purpose. It's a real shame the mods have been deleting all the entertaining threads lately.

>>10977886
Because loads of them already believe it some extent or another. Besides, feminists go for the what and who they critique directly, they aren't trying to seriously convince the masses of anything.

>>10984235
why should anyone effort-post reply to a dumb reddit thot's basic bitch feminist memes. you posted wikipedia links lol.

> oh wow, male gaze on wikipedia! ive never encountered this before! damn, my patriarchal views are being checked like fuk... how can i ever recover? i better write an essay about it

said nobody

>>10984287
>unironically writing like you're from Facebook and /b/
I didn't post any Wikipedia links bud.

>>10976870
who cares?

>>10984313
yea you did. you've also been parodying a petersonfag in a bucnh of other threads because you have no life.

>>10978265
Based
>>10984331
Why don't you try writing that again but this time like you aren't an underage Brazilian.

>>10984343
i just have one question for you. how do you find the time for reddit AND 4chan? how are you so good at time management?

are you wearing a fursuit right now? be honest

that's three questions but they count as one question because the real questoin is how you're such a huge cunt.

>>10978265
You may be lonely but you're not alone.

>>10984354

Oh man the female gaze, she's looking at my BIG DICK BULGE.

t. the subtitle of my upcoming 1000 page opus magnum (condom)

>>10977886
feminism is a cover for the interests of the middle management bitch class. They have no beliefs beyond their inane lust for power as an end in itself, which is rationalised as being somehow 'progressive'. Crying discrimination is another rational strategy for advancement after all, but unfortunately when these people get power, they will use it to grind humanity down into a genderless uniform mass of high fructose consumer blobs existing in a state of perfect 'equality'. The gynocrat is devoid of creativity, she sees art as a purely technico-administrative question, the rational maximization of 'empowerment' and the fulfilment of racial/gender quotas and economic performance targets. The 'empowered bad ass woman' is a thin stock character callibrated to optimise the performance of labor/consumer/whore units. The male action hero is a relic of a previous stage of capitalist development. The system now wants an army of unthinking gynoclones for some reason

>Earlier this year, women became the majority of the workforce for the first time in U.S. history. Most managers are now women too. And for every two men who get a college degree this year, three women will do the same. For years, women’s progress has been cast as a struggle for equality. But what if equality isn’t the end point? What if modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women? A report on the unprecedented role reversal now under way— and its vast cultural consequences
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-end-of-men/308135/

Why does she keep looking at my ass? Why does she brush her saggy tits on me whenever she walks by? Why does she make weird comments about her king-sized bed? I'm only 21, and she's 42. Still looks OK for her age but way past prime. Now she's flirt-texting me outside work. I wouldn't sleep with her normally but I guess to get ahead a niggas gotta lay some PIPE.

Fuck male objectification by menopausal crones. I feel so used but I have to slam this dried up middle-aged pussy for my livelihood, like 27 year old child refugees in Sweden.

Guys, I've been thinking about writing a book involving this topic, but frame it in a way as to disguise it to feminists too:
>futuristic setting, couple with beta guy get pregnant
>female baby that they change to male after birth through advanced DNA tech stuff
>kid grows up kinds beta, very confused about life and his gender and lonely, parents ignore him
>low t soyboy basically, like all males in this world
>have to skip around a bit here but basically he gets his ugly whore gf pregnant accidentally and despite living wage, has to get a job
>at his job he sees losers who tell him this is the best time and its all downhill etc
>has a dream where he's a girl, going on a date, his parents super encouraging and the mom says she should only settle for the best
>wakes up
>realizes this shit aint for him, runs away, police looking for him etc
>sees gender surgery ads, an expensive one to become female and a cheaper one thats basically super steroids
>lives with social outcasts and hears of an underground doctor
>doctor makes him his pet project and turns him into a wrestler type with super steroids, improves his face and everything
>guy returns to his mad wife, tells her he is gonna be a wrestler and bring in more money
>goes to Cuba competition and gets a local woman pregnant, no strings attached
>returns home, drugs the wife and takes her to the same doctor for miscarriage
>later divorces her and pays little in alimony because of an earlier setup in the book where he tricks her by signing everything in his mother's name
>goes back to Cuba
>deals with machismo, gender sexuality type stuff but nobody fucks with him cuz hes Chad now
>meanwhile US vs Russia proxy war in Africa that was also set up earlier, cuban men joining both sides
>guy laughs on the beach as he knows all the men are going to war to martyr themselves in the name of "manhood" and he's staying to fuck all the local women in sunny Cuba

What do you think? I want to make it relatable to feminists through the birth gender thing, but this is obviously a male success story and a criticism of feminist society and uncle tom men

>>10974667
RAPE: Revolt Against Penis Envy: towards an understanding of Male-Female Harmony by Boyd Rice

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/soc.men/fIK0SdYsSEw

>>10984550
women don't generally want men to be soyboys, they want men to be slightly more socially adept and maybe less predatory. social skills are an alpha trait btw, being huge and good at fighting people makes u a bodyguard on its own, not a leader. being a soyboy is a way to sidestep developing human social skills and just making yourself as inoffensive as possible which isn't really what anyone wants but will at least keep you from annoying everyone excessively

in my estimation of these things

>>10984458
that self insert holy shit

>>10984073
to be honest i feel like the guys who get manipulated by sex are largely in such an impossible to deal with state that there's no other way to communicate with them. i'm sure there are bad gfs or wives but a lot of guys are better off pussy whipped

inb4 victim blaming

>>10984140
ultimate redpill: if you get all weird around a chick cause she's hot, it's largely because you're unconsciously behaving in a way cause you think acting nice to her will increase your chance of her having sex with you. if you can stop doing that and act like a normal human being lots of these girls will be really cool to you. unless you freak out and think making friends with someone is a bad thing (friendzone)

>>10984581
Did you reply to me accidentally? Personally, I just want to be as Chad as possible, I couldn't give a single fuck about women want long term or even short term, I care about what I want. I wanna fuck. I don't care if they want to feel protected by a pseudo alpha monogamous but hot boyfriend

The plot I outlined shows how the main character pursues what he feels he deserves, which is some identity (obtained through gender) and happiness and freedom, which is separate from the plans made for him by everyone else (wife, parents, co-workers, lawyers, etc). You can say he becomes an anti-hero in the process, but I want the reader to stick with him the whole way through.

>>10984612
>a lot of guys are better off pussy whipped
Here's your (you). Feel free to kill yourself.

>>10984641
well the way you get to fuck is by figuring out what girls want in a romantic or at least sexual partner and then offering it

if you don't care about what women want you actually don't want to fuck

>>10984663
I Think I HATE women in a completely visceral and unironic way. I find it hard to imagine fucking or being in a relationship with a woman, the closest I can get is probably neurotic image board trannies, can't we just bring back Greco roman pederasty?

"i don't care about what men want i just want a hot billionaire to marry me"

>>10984682
therapy my man

>>10984663
M8 im just looking for some opinions on the plot I outline please, not to discuss psychology. You can believe what you want and it's fine.

>>10980855
>being condesending, insecure and overly agressive are
How are these either exclusively male traits, or only negative in men?

>>10974667
I'm pretty sure the history of women as objects and set pieces is the equivalent, or ideas such as presenting women as humorless, boring, or inept. You only categorize it differently because you actually believe those things about women, while similar critiques against men are simply catty banter or "taking the piss out".

>>10984728
>men think women are dumb and worthless
>but women really value men, its just banter haha
Hmmmmmm

>>10984728
but anon, women ARE humorless, boring and inept. It's how shitlibs have to remind people women are funny (usually by repeating it over and over) when in reality the internet panopticon gynocracy has eliminated humor(which relies on transgression and the unexpected) entirely by reducing it to a technico-administrative question. I had my lefty phase too, but then I realised Otto Weininger was literally right about everything, just like Sam Hyde, Elliot Rodger and Hitler.

>>10984589
>>10984458
The character was created by a male author.

>>10984772
>I had my lefty phase too, but then I realised Otto Weininger was literally right about everything, just like Sam Hyde, Elliot Rodger and Hitler.
You sway from one extreme to another. This often happens to people who are impressionable and looking to define who they are by what they associate with. Know thyself.

>>10982981
I've had men walk away from gender studies classes saying that it taught them about toxic masculinity and that they realized that it articulated some experiences they weren't comfortable with, and that they were glad they found out they could work on it.

After getting a base line of concepts, gender studies tends to argue about two sides of feminist discourse. Examples of questions pertaining to this thread that have more than one side in feminist discourse, could be:

>why do men report symptoms of toxic masculinity? where does it stem from exactly?
>what does the female gaze look like?
>what are interesting inversions of the male gaze in media? what can we learn from them?
>even if it's pragmatic to speak more effectively by not apologizing frequently, why is that a bad thing?

There's a bunch of different kinds of feminism that are all arguing with each other. It's not exactly a circle jerk, especially at higher levels where it ends up being a thunderdome between gender essentialists, third wave radfems, queer feminists, Lean In types, intersectional feminists, and class reductionist types.
>>10983189
someone's never read deleuze and badiou
>>10983330
here's your (you)
>>10984073
Camille Paglia wrote some okay stuff. She's kind of shitty about social issues but her art criticism stuff isn't too bad. Talks about sex as power in the media.

If you want my sort of sloppy abridged take:
Women have historically been treated in the legal system similarly to property in early civilization. Generally, the continued existence of dowry systems even after law stopped being explicit about the absence of rights ended up enforcing a similar culture. A lot of western culture is built in the ruins of older stuff that was based on women being a commodity. Now that we have a stronger consent culture, men are stuck in a position of continuing to be in a culture where women and sex are similar to a commodity. We value them, but we've also had the ability to obtain something we want put into the hands of someone else. Statistically, there's more women than men, so really, given a society where they aren't seen as commodities, the power should be equal, if not in favor of men.
>>10984235
Yeah it's pretty funny.

>>10982684
>Claims that sex and gender are different concepts are met with outrage
What's the problem here? I would hope someone teaching Flat Earth theory in a university would meet the same outrage.

>>10984830
sex and gender as distinct concepts are scientifically supported. gender started being used in an academic context within linguistics to describe occurrences of pronouns and languages with a heavier reliance on linguistic gender, before that got extrapolated into psychology and biology, and currently neuroscience

>>10974686
Its her posture that bothers me, look at how her neck cranes forward like that

>>10984841
>Its her posture that bothers me
you tell her, Grandma.

>>10984802
the managerial gynocrat is the abstract spirit of the current social order, individuals don't matter, they hardly exist anymore it's this abstract sanctimonious feminized authority that permeates everything. We are due for a ruthless assertion of masculine warrior Dasein. go feral, ignore all institutional and moral constraints live like a beast in the wilderness, you freaks want to grind people down into mush, you want to make us into cattle

>>10984813
Hope you feel bad about posting something this reductionist and poorly thought-out. And I say that knowing full well that the post you're responding to is bait, and is equally reductionist and poorly thought-out.

>>10984818
Ok feminist m8, can you pls give me some feedback on my book idea above (cyberpunk pic)?

In exchange I can engage in debate with you. Let's start off with why feminism matters and is good for everyone, because I think its just a power play to give women a few more advantages in the men vs women game

>>10984845
t. pic related

>>10984867
>Hope you feel bad about posting something this reductionist and poorly thought-out.
That's just, like, your opinion, man.
>And I say that knowing full well that the post you're responding to is bait
You know I thought it might've been but in this age who can fuckin tell.

>>10984915
this guy is really a stickler for posture
very cool and based

>>10984632
people of lower social status behave in an anxious manner when confronted with attractive people because of two principles: beauty is license to do violence with impunity; the disgust of the beautiful is comical and transfers disgust into the surrounding community more easily than does the disgust of others, unless they are of course authority figures or respected elders/children. The reason that women get away with crying rape against average and ugly males but permit attractive males to have their way with them so freely is because there is a power and discretion difference, which can be leveraged to do things which are considered anti-social for others. The chad chimpout and the extreme disgust which attractive women affect when approached by lesser males, especially an unaffiliated male, which are called randos by socialites at socio-sexual status signaling/mating events (aleatory appearances of repulsive, diseased and alien genetics) where these both happen the most, are both products of these principles. The weak are also harmed by their inexperience with aggressive and high tempo socio-sexual environments, so the chance of their being to withstand vetting or rejection in this arena is even worse than someone who is an alien of good breeding and high status in another deme.

Nietzsche talks about the weak’s inability to not react to stimuli of an emotional, psychologically disturbing or traumatic nature. They both can’t let others suffer and cannot themselved withstand pain as easily as the strong. The beautiful tend to be stronger than the ugly and marginally stronger than the plain. So, the weak and ugly (who tend to walk together and nature) will not manage their emotional states or psychological equilibrium properly when faced with strong visuo-sexual stimulus. There’s no chance that any incel, no matter how pure of heart, witty and surrounded by friends, will be capable of dealing well with the beautiful as often as a beautiful person. This compounds itself overtime, and thus becomes an evil neuroses, a really reprehensible sickness of the heart and maybe a kind of learned autism, which will never remedy itself, and which intensifies the hatred of the beautiful.

None of this is to necessarily indict the beautiful as entirely psychopathic, though they are certainly more corruptible than the average and slightly above average (who I think may be the most likey to have moral integrity due to lack of stress which afflicts alphas and lack of constant social failure ruining their souls).

But, to be sure, there is no doubt that they err towards hyper violence, towards sexual violence, towards cheating socially, and towards rejecting others on a whim and leading the charge in robbing and weakening the weak. This is bio-physical and hardly something to hate them for, we need not even bother with lamenting this process really. Without it all kinds of disease and instability pervades a breeding community.

>>10984907
I'm not really interested in debating about that, since it's a bit low level, but I'll give you some feedback anyways.

>>10984550
Initial thoughts:
>DNA tech change in utero sounds kinda eugenics-y, red flag
>what makes him a beta exactly?
>the whole soyboy, low T, and beta thing is pretty unscientific for cyberpunk
>I'd probably get some red flags at the portrayal of the GF.
>Wait, if he's a beta, how did he get a girl pregnant?
>wait, if he was born female, how did his chromosomes change in such a way that didn't render him infertile?
>runs away? what an asshole
>as I understand, steroids are basically extra testosterone. they actually make you uglier and go bald and smell bad
>oh yikes this guy sounds like an asshole
>how does he deal with maschismo and gender/sexuality stuff?


Overall, it sounds like something I probably wouldn't be interested in reading. I don't really think it sounds like a set up for good gender explanations - it has a liiiiittle bit of "feminine essence theory" kind of backing to try and add intrigue on a gender identity sort of way, but 1. I personally don't buy into feminine essence theory and 2. hormones (roids) shouldn't fix that if that's your angle
Also, the main character just sounds like someone I wouldn't like. I'd probably find it unrealistic that the wife would take him back after he fucks off for a while.
I do think the last part is kind of interesting, about him laughing about the macho shit of dudes going to war, but that doesn't sound like something someone who would roid up and become a wrestler would think. Ultimately, while I think that thought of laughing at dudes being macho in the military is pretty interesting, it comes across as selfish based on his past history of him doing macho asshole shit.

>>10984989
get off 4chan and stop using nietzsche to justify your social neuroses imo

>>10985016
>>10984989
they actually have this thing called therapy that can fix u.

>>10974667
The whole me too movement. A woman enjoys the advances of a sexually attractive man, but the same advances from an undesirable man, she judges as creepy.

>>10984996
Well I didn't mean to give feedback in feminist judgments, but rather as a story, if the concept is interesting regardless of ideology..

I can clarify some stuff
>in this future even more people lead sedentary lives than irl, and a living wage is established. Feminism has a firm grasp on society, the matriarchy if you will
>the protag was not gender switched in utero, but after birth, through high tech sci fi stuff that made his cells get XY chromosomes over a few months or years. His father tells him it was his decision, but the father never really interacted much with him. Basically, daddy and mommy issues, also beta because of societal reinforcement
>protag gf also has daddy issues, wears a lot of makeup, sleeps around
>she takes him back because he is masculine af now and can bring in money
>again through sci fi stuff his operation makes him hot. Also you dont know much about test, male pattern baldness, chest hair and beard growth are related to androgen receptors but not to their quantity, more about how your body reacts to any presence of it because of genes and gender. Anyway like I said it's sci fi

Also discussing the usefulness of femimism is 'low level'? Sounds like something a woman would say to distract from the fact that feminism is just a power play

>>10984989
Agree 100%

>>10985093
well those aren't my "feminist judgements", they're just my take on the story given my understanding

>living wages aren't a feminist thing, UBI is common amongst class reductionists
>he should be sterile if that's the case
>beta still isn't really scientifically supported
>unsupportive parents often result in aggression
>if everyone has a living wage, why would she want the money? also she was attracted to him when he was low T, why would him being masculine make her want him now when she liked him before?
>male pattern baldness and body hair correlate to DHT or "free testosterone", which testerone supplements tend to increase. you can look up the effects of transmasculine HRT if that interests you, but even without DHT, it still messes up your skin and fat redistribution in a way that's kind of gross

and nah, the discussion you want is just kind of low level, it sounds like you don't have a base line that would make discussion interesting to me, sorry

>>10985093
>>10985123
so to add on, I think there's some interesting elements here but they could be pared down a bit into stuff that can be a bit more exploratory conceptually and might be a little more straight forward if seperated

like
>dude is confused about gender, parents are ambivelent, ends up picking up fucked up societal standards of masculinity, has fucked up relationships, acts like a tool, realizes that sometimes masculinity makes you a dumb fuck who martyrs yourself, chills the fuck out and drinks beer
>someone exploring a world of gender identity and expression in a world of transhumanism and designer babies

i had a bit of a story similar to the second concept in mind myself at one point

>>10985123
Ok sweetie you are viewing everything through your feminist prism, when many of the things in my story are not explicitly about it, even if one of the themes of it is criticism of the movement. I never said a living wage had anything to do with feminism for example, yet you felt the need to "correct" me, and also point out the "unrealistic" aspects of sci-fi plot mcguffins, or to even dare imply things like "neglect leads to violence" as if its an axiom and not a psychology theory that needs to be viewed on a case by case basis, not to mention its fucking FICTION.

I read all of your posts in this thread, and they strike me as about low level as I would expect, so to refuse to argue regarding the very essence of any ideology (power play, deciding who has the most power) is dishonest.

I'm a /fit/izen and I doubt you know more about test than me, considering you are likely female. Tell me, what is your experience with testosterone? I'll tell you this, there are no side effects. I don't have to say sorry, ever, only in contexts of "sorry sweetie but I don'y buy your gay theories". Gender studies are a hugbox for girls that serves only to acknowledge their confidence issues (lack of test) and to help them deal with the reality that they are powerless driveless holes. Who has the strength, the dick, the test? Males. Males that, if unrepressed by society can find sexual relief with other males, therefore driving the commodity of women on the sex market below the fucking ground. Feminism and anything fem-targeted is just a power play- giving power to women through law lobbying, social conditioning, sexual liberation, make them compete that much more with men within the confines of society- because outside of it they are worthless, only few lucky to even be considered a sex object (which is enjoyable anyway).

Imagine if makeup was outlawed and sex orientation was seen not as straight-gay but dom-sub. Roasties would be fuckerino.

>>10985021
>>10984689
yes goyim, go to good old doctor Finkelstein, he will prescribe you some (((pills))) that will fix your persistent wrongthink syndrome and take care of that toxic masculinity

>>10974667
>this thread hasn't died yet

>>10984550
there's nothing here, have you even written anything before? you don't even seem to be aware of how you're just throwing certain signifiers, memes, around because they're all you know, rather than out of having genuine inspiration for flipping them or otherwise engaging in juxtaposition or seeing through them etc etc
nevermind that this is 2049 *in 4chan goggles*
>your protag becomes a 'real boy'

take all of the memes that informed this, and look at them as a psyop in cultural media that's taken control of your mind. hell, if you really think you can get really inspired treat it as if you were the psyop's best and most controlled mark. no, you don't get to prefer one pet meme over any other
write your way out.

research: marketing, social media marketing, simulacra and simulation, society of the spectacle, medium is the message, understanding media
if you're actually capable of writing something half interesting you'd discomfort the boundary created in the discourse being had here

>>10985310
Thanks m8. I don't think you particularly understand the messages I was trying to speak, but ok. They go well beyond "memes" or whatever, and I know a bunch about what you mentioned- psyops, marketing, Marshall McLuhan, Edward Bernays, etc. which are in some way or another related to my story, so I would like you to specify exactly what you mean.

Half of all men are going to be thrown in jail, and the other half will be employed as prison guards. We are under siege. They're sharpening the guillotines.

>>10977780
>unironicly

>>10984860
>all this in response to a simple correction
Christ, you people are fucked in the head.

>>10984550
sounds dumb as hell but you should read triton by samuel delaney

>>10985236
Not the feminist but your story is shit mate, it's like a parody of the kind of actual speculative science fiction novels they used to make before the 90s, which might've actually made for a decent read if you weren't wholeheartedly trying to pass it off as a serious critique of a prolific real-world ideology. Also
>ok sweetie

>>10985494
Fuck off roasie

>>10974667
what is this cIip from? pIease

>>10985390
The dream here as the inciting incident breaks through the unreality of his identity, typical, and you're playing a reverse transgender story where the person discovers not a psychological identity but a biological truth, then playing another twist on the transgender story by not making the transition to the 'real' identity but further pushing the 'fake' identity to the extreme while not giving protag group approval as is desired by the trans. All well and good.

My perspective here is that the elements around the protag as references and stand ins for aspects of current culture have to be more fleshed out so that the protag's interaction with them can more clearly elucidate the transgressive nature of the character and the story. Up to you to how coy you want to be with exactly who and what you describe in terms that mirror marketing in a way that pays off at the end with cubans chasing masculinity.

The way in which these images are most present in real life and how you experience them has to be part of how they are presented in the story, which is why simply describing a 'soyboy' isn't enough. The way in which these things are experienced on and through the internet is why I brought up those books to further be able to lampoon not only specific images and ideas but their contexts. These things are internet phenomena through which we mediate reality "authentically". To present them in the terms or structure of marketing would at once imply our own world but also create a more fucked up reality for your protag and give another layer for you to play with that plays into the final scene which also can't just be a play on actual current events or representations of ideological stereotypes but also a further lampoon on certain ideas of identity as being played with through the protag

>>10985236
I'm actually seeing an endo about my high t levels (for my age and assigned birth sex) so it's been something I've been consulting my doctors about, actually, if you were inquiring in good faith about what i know about it

scifi and cyberpunk usually has a strong basis in science even if it's fiction. speculative thinking is part of the wonder of it. it wasn't a "correction", it was just my thoughts i had reading what you had to say. it's not a personal attack, it could still be a good story, i assumed you were gonna explain the science parts instead of just being angry or whatever

look dude it's not dishonest to just think what you offered was boring and weird, by offering to "debate" me in exchange for feedback for your novel. you asked for something and i gave it to you for free without whatever you were offering me for it.

If makeup was outlawed and sexual orientation was dom-sub, I'd probably be pretty happy.

>>10985390
it's pretty obvious what they mean?

>>10985236
>>10985641
lol i didn't even see this post before responding
you REALLY need to read triton

>>10985726
you are giving this dude way too much cognitive credit, friend

>>10985236
>Who has the strength, the dick, the test? Males. Males that, if unrepressed by society can find sexual relief with other males, therefore driving the commodity of women on the sex market below the fucking ground.
wait what
>I'm a /fit/izen
dw it all makes sense now

>>10985752
Lmao I always knew /fit/izens were actually gay for each other, it's pretty homoerotic.
>>10985750
I mean, why prioritize the intentions of the subject if it's a fun exercise to interpret it in good faith?

>>10985750
trying to prove a pointthat taps a lightbulb into working

>>10985726
Thanks. It's weird how some stories automatically get better once you are let in on their secrets- that I wasn't just rambling about feminism but really trying to create depth based on the things I have literary knowledge of, but that depth is only acknowledged once I reveal my inspirations. The story really is about deconstructing gender role expectations and social conditioning through media and law.

There are many things I want to put in the story, and the greentext was just a 4chan-digestible version. It's not "soyboys and feminism" in such a blunt and uninteresting way.

I do want to play around a lot with social conditioning- particularly what it is to be considered male under different social groups. In a nod to Brasil's cosmetics and trannies and general beauty market and South Korean men wearing make-up and the plastic surgery craze, I would like to play around with that in this androgynous commercialist world. Add the futurism and you have the designer babies with modified genders and physical traits, but all still veering toward that homogeny of race and androgyny (paralels to Gangnam look and Brasilian trannies, etc). I picked the character to become a roided wrestler because in this world being an athlete or even working out is seen as somewhat fringe and animalistic, dare I say, toxic, but still magnetic in some way. I never mentioned this, but multiple times the character feels weird when he sees big ripped men on tv and 2 cops on the street when he's a fugitive, and it's unclear whether this is jealousy or sexual desire.

>>10985792
How exactly does law play into it?

>>10985728
Well why are you still obfuscating your birth gender and """the gender you identify with""" and t level value? Hot tip: visiting a doc will not give you an indicative sign of how good or bad your levels are. The ranges keep being adjusted for "normal" as t levels and sperm count decrease over the decade. Don't adjust the school program, adjust the test score averages, that kind of thing. As silly as it sounds, the best guys when it comes to t are the "manosphere", like Ben Greenfield, or if more mainstream, Joe Rogan, followed by the onion-eating retards on /fit/ and only then followed by doctors.

>>10981318
>Somerset Maugham
Was looking for this. He has the bitchiest descriptions of women I can think of.

>>10985827
Law reinforces media and media reinforces law to create social norms. Not to get too connect-the-dot-y but they both stem from the same entities, the ones in charge of society.

In the story, one example is the legal consequences the protag faces when hooking up with the cuban girl vs the american. It may get too cyberpunk but all money is cryptocurrency, well quantum currency I guess- virtual and monitored and suspended at will by the government. The protag stops being a fugitive to get the manhunt off his back and get eyes away from his assets and bank account so he can change their ownership to the mother, and later force the wife to have a miscarriage and divorce her for only a small alimony sum, so he has enough to leave for Cuba.

>>10985848
>As silly as it sounds, the best guys when it comes to t are a bunch of people entirely uneducated on the medical implications and applications of testosterone
As a visitor from /sci/, in my bioeng program we're laughing our asses off at anyone who's bought into fucking alpha/better Testosterone pseudoscience

>>10983104
A very good post

>>10985897
Oh yeah bitch boy? Fucking step up and enlighten me then and tell me how to "truly" maximize t and what the other guys get wrong. Ben Greenfield knows his shit, I doubt you do.

>>10985272
The point is that i think youre handicapping your ability to participate in society and have a meaningful relationship because of nonsense you read on 4chan, and that your regret it either once you realize that you can change or on your deathbed

>>10984550
Dream sequences are for fags anon.

>literature threads
>30 replies
>thread on wemen
>300 replies
Thanks /r9k/

>>10984073
The Manipulated Man by Esther Vilar
Not toning shit down for you though faggot

>>10983189
what did you read? be honest.

>>10984996
I want to cave your skull in with my bare hands

>>10974695
>muh edgy gay basement nazi.

>>10983508
you know the opposite of "religion" is not "satanism" right

>>10980408

That woman has always been mad.

Is there any female/feminist equivalent of manosphere literature (like "The Rational Male", for example)?

Whilst there's much I don't agree witg, it definitely provides an insight into less socially acceptable aspects of male thought and behaviour.

>>10979970
stem cell therapy to regenerate lost/damaged tissue
If you want a picture of the future, imagine chad going balls deep in your oneitis - forever.

>>10985021
Therapy is as efficacious as a placebo, pharmacotherapy is as efficacious as a placebo. Id rather be vaguely crippled gut both eyes wide open, then medicated, placid, desensitized and hooked onto a seratonin circuit for wage-slaving. being aware of the inhumanity of humans is a noble state, even if it induces tragic consequences. die normalfag

>>10984989
Actually I think very similarly but without the pseud language.

>>10984354
UMA

>>10974667
No. If they do they're seen as gratuitous idiots.
You see, this is the age of faggotry, if you aren't sucking some wimp's cock you're just a nefarious character nobody should have anything to do with.

>>10986200
nice, thanks

>>10976811
That guy seems gay.

>>10982359
>Dude, the man whoms view that is seems to be gay
>whoms view
>whoms
Motherfucker do you English? Whom is used primarily to denote the accusative case. To make it simple, one should use whom when the answer to a question would also end in an "m". Whom did you hit with the hammer? Him. You hit him. Who said that? He. He said that. I don't even know how to approach what you've done here.

>>10987235
>namedropping the holy grail
Anon what THE FUCK are you doing

To answer the question, its just the equivalent to any feminist theory book since the sexual revolution, of which there are many.

>>10987556
I'm quite, quite certain it was a joke, Shakespear.

>>10988514
I can't even write Shakespeare. I am the biggest stuttering pothead there is on this planet.

>>10986200
This book made me go from
>As a male I just wanna do what I want and be free and physically attractive and let others try to do the same
to
>women DESERVE rape because it is the only viable reproductive strategy