/lit/ - Literature

"Given a choice between Noam Chomsky and Ben Carson, in terms of the totality of their understanding of what’s happening now in the world, I'd vote for Ben Carson every time" - Sam Harris

"black ppl are stupid it's the brown ppl that we should exterminate" — Samuel Harrisson

>”We should nuke the Middle East before ISIS get nukes.”
>OMG I never said we should nuke the Middle East!!!! I just said it would be wise to nuke them before ISIS gets nukes!!!

>>10976966
>says *something*
>hey did you say *something*
>n-no you need the proper context! Stop strawmanning

>>10976966
just STOP

>>10976966

>mfw I can go from 'is' to 'ought' in only seven twitter posts

>>10977087
Friendly reminder that Chomsky is a self-described anarchist.

I aint been representin' in five years. But the Ballas won't give a shit.

In his 'defense', Harris is just a blogger. If youre not immersed in the world of intellectualism its easy to be taken in by shit that sounds neutral and common sense, but is actually rediculous. His recent championing of the Bell Curve is an example. When you read something like 'genetics and experience both play a part in a persons IQ' seems on the face of it fairly common sense, but when youre in the world of reading scholarly stuff and then the responses to it and the responses to the criticism itself, you see whats actually happening. Harris isnt, hes just a slightly above average intelligence podcaster without much experience of the topics he comments upon.

>>10977470
Bell Curve (specifically the "why niggers are so shit" chapter) is scientifically mainstream.

lmao
https://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/neuroscientist-sam-harris/

>>10977470
Honestly is there anybody popular who can't be described this way?

>>10977470
no one judges the validity of an idea based on critical response they judge it based on its truth value and ability to falsified or to reflect observable phenomena. the scientific consensus in neuropsychology and behavioral genomics is that blacks are less intelligent and that its caused by genetic factors primarily. Sam is an idiot because he’s tried to formulate a scientific ethics and has astroboy retarded understandings of technological capabilities and cannot argue for elim materialism coherently despite using it to hammer other people for epistemological errors

>>10977575
chomsky, zizek, the list goes on

>>10977535
The mainstream scientific position is that high heritability of a certain trait does not necessarily mean that average group differences in this trait are due to genes. This is because heritability measures the proportion of variation in a trait that can be attributed to genes, which is not the same as the proportion of a trait caused by genes.

>>10977087

There's no way he said that. I heard him express severe discomfort at the fact that someone running for president, who was also a surgeon, did not believe in evolution. He seemed genuinely disturbed by that fact.

>>10977616
The mainstream scientific position is that American Negroids are, on average, inherently dumber than whites.

>>10977616
yeah but i mean...they won't say it outright, but it isn't exactly hard to put 2 and 2 together

>>10977101
>completely missed the point

poor you

>>10977616
you don’t know what heritability means and neither do the people who explained that to you. this is sci-mag, scientific american tier obfuscation. high heritability means higher genetic influence will survive each generation

>>10977685
He is still right that high heritable in a trait doesn't mean that group differences in that trait are due to genes.

>>10976966
>STOP MISREPRESENTING ME

>>10977583
>no one judges the validity of an idea based on critical response they judge it based on its truth value and ability to falsified or to reflect observable phenomena

This isn't true at all. Even in a purely theoretical field. People are being totally misled about academia by Richard Dawkins and Neil Tyson et al and their 'peer review' schtick

>>10977535
There's literally zero serious scientific study of this topic

>>10976966
oy vey sweetie blacks ruin everything they touch all over the world because other races bully them

that's the only reason and to say different is racist and therefore wrong

>>10977866
yeah because every time a scientist does a study on this, they suddenly become a pariah, and so the status quo of 'no serious study' is maintained by tarring the study in question.

>>10977707
it essentially does, so you are wrong and so is he. the people who say this are lying to your face, height is high heritability and also happens to be highly influenced by genetics. Don’t you think that’s a weird coincidence that eye color and height are highly heritable and also almost exclusively determined by genetic factors?
>>10977821
normalfags are not human, i wasn’t talking about them. I was talking about the scientific community

>>10977866
there is overwhelming evidence that intelligence is highly heritable, and strongly influenced by genetics, and there is overwhelming evidence blacks inherit weaker intelligence genes which affect their cognitive function severely. Hence blacks are loud, violent, hyper sexual and incoherent thinkers; whites are much less so, and Jews+Asians the least of any group

>>10977910
which everybody already knew before the century of lies anyway. like this stuff was common knowledge and obvious, even the parts about heritability, they just called it 'breeding'

>>10977893
Consider actually reading a post before responding to it. Read >>10977707 again very carefully and see if you can figure out what is being discussed. Hint: It has NOTHING to do with the relationship between being heritable and being caused by genetic factors.

>>10977652
>did not believe in evolution
Chomsky doesn't believe in evolution either

>>10977652
https://www.salon.com/2015/12/09/siding_with_christian_fanatics_like_ben_carson_over_noam_chomsky_sam_harris_exposes_inherent_conservatism_of_new_atheism/

>>10977910
There's no proof white people exist beyond an abstract categorisation.

>>10977087
absolutely based

MOOOOOOOM, THE BIG ARAB GUY KEEPS BULLYING ME

>>10977910
86% of members of the American Anthropological Association disagree with the claim that the human population may be subdivided into biological races, 88% of them disgaree with the claim that racial categories are determined by biology and 93% of them disagree with the claim that there are discrete biological boundaries among races: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ajpa.23120

If I touched this stove, would it suck?

>>10976966
I like how he's usually 200% autism but then completely chimps out on Twitter.

>>10977917
i am aware anon
>>10978239
it actually does and you’re fucking insane if you think skin color and height are highly heritable and thus have high genetic influence, but intelligence is not, and are ignoring that blacks are simply of lesser intelligence and its highly heritable, thus their offspring have inferior genes and this is fixed by genetic influence throughout their lives

you also don’t understand genetics at all so you sud keep quiet
>>10978500
there is proof from studies on variation that humans are split into 5 distinct subspecies, caucasoids are their own subspecies and congoloids are another
>>10978555
this is just cultural propaganda and is not backed up by using inductive logic, i reject this consensus. do the fucking math, there is more variability between humans than many distinct subspecies of apes and predatory animals. we are 5 different sub-species (races), blacks are distinct subspecies and they have lower average intelligence due to lower fitness genetics that have persisted in their native environment. the high heritability of intelligence and the remarkable loss of neuroplasticity at around 20 years old ensures that blacks are less intelligent because of the genetic and indirect genetic influence of their race and this gets worse as they age. You can run in circles, you can appeal to “consensus” but it won’t change that blacks are just lesser intelligences, which is why they did not independently create high civilization whereas the Mayans did, the Incas did, the Aztecs did, Blacks inhabit an enormous range of climes and in none of them did they produce high culture. Whites did in the Mediterranean, the Semites (caucasoids again) did in MENA and the Berbers and Egyptids (who are Hamitic-Semite hybrids or precursors of those races from the Maghreb) also did, the Chinese did, the Indians did, with help from the white aryan conquerors, the Dravidians (read:Iranic neolithic caucasoids) did in Harappa, the Mongols did, the Siberians and Native Americans did, but the Africans failed to do so. Why? because the average iq in africa is around 75 and dips as low as 65 in some places, anything below 90 is stupid, anything below 80 is developmentally disabled. They’re the equivalent of barely human disabled toddlers and so they just didn’t make robust cities, trade routes or weaponry. All the materials necessary to flourish are available. You could argue its a bad place to start a civilization, but you’d only be trapping yourself because this would lead to their genetic adaptations being deficient relative to whites and asians. There was 40,000 years at least of isolation between the eurasians and congoloids, they’re not the same people. East and South Africans aren’t even black, they’re red and yellow afro-asiatic races, Ethiopids are Caucasoidal Semitic Africans and the Somaloids are also Red as are the Khoisan, all these dominated africa for thousands of years before the Bantu horde bulldozed them

>>10978650
look at him go

>>10978650
>it actually does and you’re fucking insane if you think skin color and height are highly heritable...

God how much did you drool as you mashed out this nonsensical post that has nothing to do with what I said. Are you so retarded that you cant comprehend a simple sentence? How stupid did your parents have to be to shit out a brain dead ape like you. You belong in a cage you stupid fucking nigger.

>>10977593
underated post

Question: how does he make money, now that Sam is boycotting Patreon?

>>10977583
HE SAID IT HE SAID IT BOYS HE SAID ELIMINATIVE MATERIALISM

OH BOY THATS A PADDLIN.

>>10978853
He isn't anymore, he gladly accepts their bux.

He also has his own subscription model at his website and does live events.

I would estimate that Sammy is at least bringing home 100k a month.

Not that he needs to, given his mommies succes in Hollywood.

>>10978555
>anthropology

discarded. 'race' is only partially arbitrary, it is possible to determine, with greater than 90% accuracy, the race an individual identifies as a member of by taking a swab of their armpit, letting it grow in a petri dish and examining the specific kinds of microbes that grow in it. Race tends to be a replacement for 'clinal extreme' in daily parlance. While it's true that there is no objective point where you draw the line between what is Mediterranean and African for example, the fact is that the Bantu are genetically distinct from the French, for the time being at least.

Race as we know and use it is a simplifying heuristic, it is not the end all be all of human genetic difference but it is useful as a signaling tool and for the sake of diagnosis. There are already medicines on the market that, for example, have been shown to have no effect on those identifying as caucasian but a significant positive effect on those identifying as african. While you can get technical and say that there is likely a very narrow spectrum of genetic and lifestyle factors that are responsible for this relationship, the fact of the matter is as of right now we do not know exactly what it is that makes this population respond to the medicine and the other population not respond so in terms of applying the medicine, race is a useful means of categorization.

Also questions of whether biology explains human difference should not be asked to a social scientist, they have a vested interest in saying it doesn't.

>>10978879
I'm not familiar with Patreon, but I don't see the normal "tiers" of donation
> $1 patreons get so and so
> $5 patreons get this
> $10 patreons get that
https://www.patreon.com/samharris

>>10978650
it's more likely that all the intelligent africans left africa in massive migration waves (over a few hundred thousand years), and the brutal violent ones stayed behind creating some sort of bottleneck which exported intelligence north. the classic chad vs virgin, with the virgin running away unable to compete sexually (and fucking weird subhumans like neanderthal and denisovan entering our collective gene pool).

do you really think africans wont catch up in like 50 years? why wouldn't some massive corporation run by an autist like zuckerberg just create a 75 iq technology, like some kind of drip feeder that is attached to you from an early age and provides you with the right feels and foods, in the process stupefying everyone down to that level.

>>10978882
so ur saying jews sold all humans out to ayys by promoting multi-racialism in order to have a lazy silver bullet virus to wipe us all out in exchange for gold?

>>10978915
He also doesn't state how much he actually gets but he's in the rankings between people who make about 20k a month on patreon alone.

https://www.patreon.com/explore/podcasts

I believe the majority donates directly via his own site though, that Patreon 20k is just a nice bonus.

>>10977470
This. Listening to him explain why he sided with the FBI during the Apple dispute was pretty cringey. Even though he clearly had no understanding of data encryption technology (or constitutional law), he somehow thought his "scientifically proven morality" was sufficient to weigh in on the issue.

Stick to your neuroscience, Sam.

>>10976966
I'll have stop you there and plant a flag so I can unpack this and explain the nuance of what I meant, you lying shitbag

>>10978981
this happens to all public intellectuals in america, they are sat down and given the talk, and then allowed to pick a side.

>>10978981
>Stick to your neuroscience, Sam.

He's not even good at that. I'm a neuroscience grad student and in the lab, we just shit on Sam Harris because his only publication is some shitty, underpowered imaging study that doesn't really say anything.

>>10977535
The book is not mainstream at all.

>>10978936
it's over 20k PER PODCAST, and he does 3-4 of them a month

>>10977470
>Bell Curve
ugh, I hate it when laymen jack off to this naturalist garbage.

>let's adhere to the bell curve!
>It tells us everything we need to know!
>what is binomial distribution, uniform distribution, gamma distribution, exponential distribution, chi^2 distribution, beta distribution?

>>10979278
that can't be true. $60,000 a month, just from rambling for an hour into his microphone once a week?

>>10978379
What?

>>10977616
>. This is because heritability measures the proportion of variation in a trait that can be attributed to genes, which is not the same as the proportion of a trait caused by genes.

No, but when you start eliminating others factors and are backed into invoking an almost religious belief in a specter of an unfalsifiable and unverifiable creature like institutionalized racism, then I think we might have evidence the differences are genetic.

>>10979244
>STEM grad student on /lit/

Name five of your favorite writers, in no particular order

>>10978575
It would be extremely painful

>>10978981
>IQ isn't neuroscience
what a moran

>>10977087
No shit anon. Harris and his neocon buddies keep a tight leash on evangelical dupes like Carson. Chomsky, though also an ardent Zionist, may actually deviate from the current course of unceasing Middle East war.

>>10977652
He did, he loathes Ben Carson, but the fact that he acknowledged the real threat of radical Islam and was willing to do something about it was enough.

>>10979580
>an almost religious belief in a specter of an unfalsifiable and unverifiable creature like institutionalized racism
as the poet andreas rommel jung once said - nigga is you crazy

>>10979842
>the fact that he acknowledged the real threat of radical Islam and was willing to do something about it was enough
harris is a high-functioning autist

>>10979713
King, Grisham, Camus, Orwell, Clancy
:^)

I'd like to be as successful as Sam Harris

>>10979842
>the real threat of radical Islam
>kills less people then falling vending machines yearly

The funniest part of the "radical Islam" fear that pussy westerners have, is that all of these groups are their frankenstein monsters. And westerners feel like they're victims for being the smallest percentage of innocent deaths at the hands of these groups.

I have yet to find evidence that Islam is either a threat to westerners or is in bed with liberalism. I just don't see it.

>>10979580
>an almost religious belief in a specter of an unfalsifiable and unverifiable creature like institutionalized racism
Sometimes, every once in a while, you read or hear something so completely, ridiculously retarded, that you just have to take a break. Your post is one of those things. May Allah guide you, poor soul.

>>10976966
I won't defend a Jew just I've never heard a good argument against him. Just sperging and terrible sperging. Until this same treatment is given to Socrates then I don't want to hear shit.

He's arguing whether there is a limit to the absolutist "nukes are literally the devil's penis" argument. They're last resort but he's arguing they should be used a bit sooner to prevent something worse from happening.
Granted I don't want to start nuking Arabs because a Jew is getting uncomfortable for Israel.

>>10979713

Obviously >>10980502 not me.
Balzac, Dickens, Gibson (yea fuck off), Joyce, and I dunno, probably Mishima.

>>10980645
>make a monster
>you shouldn't be afraid of it
What did he mean by this

>>10977866
Geneticist here. There's no study on it because no one dares to touch it and no one would ever fund a project on it. But IQ being mostly inherited is undisputed in the scientific consensus.

Sam Harris won the debate, end of discussion.

>>10976966
Which book is this?

>>10981204
has he ever won a debate? the closest I've seen is him arguing semantics with peterson for an hour and that was just one where he kind of didn't lose.

>>10981204
Yeah but Thomas Jefferson.

>>10980861
>the joos

Go back to /pol/

>>10978593
>>10978601
>>10978612
someone signify whether or not lit approves of these images so i can save them

>>10981327
t. Chaim Goldsteinfinkelberg

>>10977593
>zizek
i love zizek bu he is a fucking autist coke head
the only reason why he gets jerked off here that often is because he says nigger
/lit/ is a brainlet board

>>10981334
Yeah you're all good.

>>10978555
I appreciate this post, and I do agree with the message. I just wanted to say I thought it was odd they and anthropologists when most of the questions deal with Biology.

>>10981334
>i can't think for my own and need validation of my internet buddies to even take a simple shit on the toilet

>>10980645
>the only metric to measure an idea's harm to society is the number of people killed
Nice use of the Taqiya there, Muhammed

>>10976966
While Sam is right at the core of the matter, he failed to ask the right hard questions and apply pressure from different angles. He basically ended up repeatedly bashing his head against a wall like he often does rather than trying a different approach, which made it seem like Ezra got the upper hand rhetorically. Sam needs to expand his rhetoric toolkit in order to deal with clever people like this

>>10980645
>I have yet to find evidence that Islam is either a threat to westerners
It is quite literally fighting western values at their own turf
>or is in bed with liberalism
Only fucking retards believe this, "moderate" islam is just taking advantage of guillible ess dubya jays to spread their influence and not be called out on it

>>10981729
>sam is right

stop right there buddy, there is not a single person more uniformly wrong about everything than sam harris

>>10981801
Wow... You're right... So this is the power of argument

>>10979319
Jesus, stop flaunting your basic bitch knowledge of stats.

>>10981848
The Bell Curve promotion he did was unironically the single most valuable thing he's done. The absolute best he's capable of is advocating for others whose arguments aren't as bad as his.

>>10979319
>>10981851
The guy has obviously never read the book and has no idea what it's about. Thinks listing a few distributions disproves it i guess?

>>10978650
Your last post demonstrated a grievous lack of even basic knowledge of West African history. The Yoruba people who populated Ile-Ife had amassed an independent civilization by the 7th century, and had commissioned brass/copper sculptures that European archeologists compared to the greatest works of Rome/Greece, and attempted to blatantly deny that they had ever even come from Africa.

The Ghana Empire developed on its own. After the Muslims introduced West African civilizations to a common written language, they had experienced an enormous surge in technological progression (Timbuktu manuscripts). The Bornu became excellent traders and refined steel cuirasses for their infantry & cavalry.
Please actually know what you're talking about before pulling utter bullshit from your ass.

>>10977101
What does it matter its not our choice anyway

>>10981131
>Geneticist here. There's no study on it because no one dares to touch it and no one would ever fund a project on it.
lol bullshit, contact the pioneer fund

Reminder that Zizek called him out on his former affirmation of Pol Pot and Chomsky conceded with a quip. Something like "Pol Pot's followers aren't as bad as Lacan's followers", so pathetic it could've been a tankie's tweet.

Can we just formally ignore all of Chomsky's non-Linguistic work, for his sake?

>>10982156

But Chomsky's linguistic work ended up holding back the field for over 20 years due to his refusal of accepting heuristics and machine learning as a proper way to gap into statistical physics

>>10982211
How can one man exert so much influence on the field and why did no one question it?

>>10982227
>refusal of accepting heuristics and machine learning

There's little reason to believe that shoving things into a machine and hoping the statistical correlations pops out a series of good answers will necessarily be more fruitful in understanding the specific ways that the human mind may be biased towards certain structures given that the mechanisms won't necessarily be transparent to humans. This is not at all to discount machine learning and the power it does have, which is potentially immense, but for now this should complement structural approaches to linguistics, rather than fighting it. Chomsky isn't some idiot who just hates machines and is afraid they will beat him.

>>10976966
I hate to admit it, but Sam Harris was BTFO by Ezra Klein in the latest podcast.

This thread is why Klein won the debate. The data on race and IQ isn't conclusive, yet so many wish to use it to fuel their racism. This should be a taboo topic because idiots will misrepresentat the findings to confirm their racist biases.

>>10982390
>The data on race and IQ isn't conclusive, yet so many wish to use it to fuel their racism.

This is right.

>This should be a taboo topic because idiots will misrepresentat the findings to confirm their racist biases.

This isn't. It's not unreasonable to propose the idea that genetics could have a certain impact on the difficulty of a given population attaining a certain level of intelligence, as measured through IQ. The existing studies don't give reason to believe that this isn't the case, thought they don't show conclusively that it is. This deserves serious consideration, though you're not wrong to fear racists simply using this mindlessly. It would be better to not deny the possibilities that do exist instead of using weasel words (like >>10978555 ) to act like certain genetic correlations couldn't possibly be meaningful indicators without outright saying it.

>>10982390
> The data on race and IQ isn't conclusive, yet so many wish to use it to fuel their racism
Harris agrees with this and stated this himself before the argument with the journalistic activist
> This should be a taboo topic because idiots will misrepresent the findings to confirm their racist biases
Again, Harris agrees with this, but the reason he had Murray on was due to what he felt was an unjust crucifixion, not to further the debate on race and iq.

Debates like this aren't won or lost. They're for the undecided few. For the rest they're just a cause for high blood pressure and confirmation bias. You yourself confirmed this with your non-argument.

>>10976966
Imagine actually being someone who watches Sam Harris debates on YouTube.

>>10982459
hahahaha XD XD XD, i know right? some people hahah

>>10977616
This board talking about science is really embarrassing. /sci/poster here, just wanted to let you know everything is attributed to genes

>>10982459
Imagine actually being someone who chooses to remain ignorant.

>>10979278
>>10979337
have you heard those live podcasts? sammy draws thousands and thousands of reddit atheists who go apeshit, it's like a pentecostal megachurch type thing. americans love clapping and herd behaviour so much that spirit will creep into everything.

sam could say 'god.. heh.. *raises one eyebrow*... fake.' and people would jump up from their chairs and go "WOOOOOOOOOO YEAAAAAAAH" and give thunderous applause.

>>10982474
Friendly reminder that this dude is wrong, and while many physical characteristics are attributed to an individual's genetic makeup, there are many that are not. A few examples include the role that malnurishment can play into someone's height. If you still do not believe me that genes do not make somebody holistically, look at identical twins, who are genetically identical but can be very different in personality, and even sometimes in appearance.

>>10978483
>salon
Even the link is clicbait. I doubt the writers believe a word they throw up.

>The scientific consensus is wrong and is just cultural propaganda
>I know better than anyone

Why do lit posters have so much arrogance? I mean these arguments on heritability seem to be from people who understands genetics just watching a few YouTube videos and reading pol posts.

>>10982975
>dude
>friendly reminder
fuck off bug

and you’re fucking wrong about everything you’re saying, intelligence and height are genetic, your spic friends are short because they have the genetics to be short. epigenetic factors can depress height to a degree, but if you mean to appeal to HBD evolution, then this is laughable because that would be genetics and the same could be said for intelligence. You’re going to be crushed into a pulp in public soon, i can’t wait for the ants to scatter

>>10982988
>and you’re fucking wrong about everything you’re saying, intelligence and height are genetic, your spic friends are short because they have the genetics to be short.
>Implying I said otherwise

I live in a developed country where malnutrition really isn't an issue, so my short friends are short because of genetics, yes. I never said that those don't play a role, in fact I never said this wasn't the SINGLE LARGEST role in your makeup, especially physical. I was simply stating there are other factors. As for the actual inheritance of intelligence, I think we agree that genetics is the single largest factor in that as well, but yet again does not dictate everything. It really doesn't sound like we disagree on too much, honestly, I just wanted to make some clearifications.

The last bit of your comment was weird, so I'm skipping that.

How do people end up like this guy, though? With that faggy voice and way of speaking as well... What the fuck went wrong?
I know a couple of literal homos and they're not like this. This guy supposedly even has a wife.

inb4 joo
Sam Harris and Murray are also jews.

>>10977616
>his is because heritability measures the proportion of variation in a trait that can be attributed to genes, which is not the same as the proportion of a trait caused by genes.
What the actual fuck does this even mean? Everything about you originates with genes.

>>10983247
nah m8 the culture fairy dust creates culture souls and culture magic which defies the laws of physics and makes humans not animals

>>10978650
Why the fuck do you pseuds who know absolutely NOTHING of history feel the need to present fallacious drivel as fact?

Do you know that you are spreading blatant misinformation? Do you even care, you fucking sub-human troglodyte?

>>10979730
That's a big OUGHT

>>10982517
>If you don't care about internet memes you're ignorant
The absolute fucking state of yourself

>>10982932
How do people digitally clap during a live podcast?

>>10983546
For is.

>>10983555
you are by definition ignorant of the memes

>>10983679
ebin

>>10977384
Why does that need to be a reminder? Thats what most of his work is about. Thats like reminding people that MLK was an anti segregationist

>>10978555
>anthropologists
>scientists

>>10983688
why are you brainlets so convinced of your own superiority

>>10983689
much needed itt

https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2018/04/08/live-not-by-lies/

>>10983697
ebil

Example of a classic libtard
>God is for stupid people, I believe in SCIENCE
>Muh evolution
>People are not different, everyone is equal
But what about evolution?
>Evolution stoped at the neck

So you think morality isn't objective? Put your hand on the stove RIGHT NOW

Why do people get so emotional when talking about iq? To me the notion of a 2-3 digit number representing all the subtleties that come with the human brain is ridiculous. For example, these tests require you to do no critical thinking or decision making. Yet when you question the usefulness of this number, people sperg out like you physically assaulted their mother or something.

>>10983914
Majority of people in real life and even academia don't give a shit about IQ. IQ is something that thrives on the internet, especially on forums like this where people have no accomplishments to thier name.

Also IQ is synonymous for most people as the definitive test for intelligence.

>>10983914
IQ correlates with real life outcomes, which is why people care about the number. Nobody has ever suggested that it represents all the subtleties of the human brain. Nobody has ever even come close to saying this.

Usually this is not what people say when they criticize IQ anyway, they say that the entire concept is flawed and that it doesn't measure anything useful at all. The hostility against IQ stems from 1)the fact that races have different average IQs, 2)People don't like the idea of quantifying humans in any way, because we are supposed to be equal, and 3)IQ appears to be highly heritable, which contradicts environmentalism.

When examining any individual their IQ is not a great proxy for much, within reasonable boudaries- someone with a 70IQ will simply never be a physics professor, for example.

>>10983983
>IQ correlates with real life outcomes
In a very broad and generalized way. The numbers are entirely pointless because they don't mean anything except in vast differences (IE: 70 iq person vs 140 iq person), also there are several things that change as far as what is regarded as "intelligent" (here meaning useful or more vaguely "positive" aspects) for example the fact that at one point in time a farmers knowledge would be regarded with the same importance as a computer coder's knowledge would be today. Not to mention that IQ is something that must be graded and weighed and made sure that the average is maintained in a society (so that the "average" IQ of 100 stays the average), IQ is nothing more than pseudoscience that somehow bled over simply because there are SOME (not many) correlations between having a higher test score and achieving more (within an abstract ideal) in life

>>10983983
>When examining any individual their IQ is not a great proxy for much
That is completely and utterly FALSE.

>>10984012
if it has predictive value it is not a pseudoscience. It predicts very well for whole populations


you're correct that IQ will not predict for success in all walks of life. It helps in fields that require some amount of mental ability. Some fields have average IQs of over 130 because they are very intellectually demanding.

anyway all of this is very old news, and there's not much point going over it. People have picked their sides, they either throw out the whole idea, or they eventually succumb to the wrongthink

>>10984036
>Some fields have average IQs of over 130 because they are very intellectually demanding
No, you have this backwards. Some fields are so specific that they are regarded as needing a certain IQ to succeed in.

>>10984053
i do not have it backwards. If you pick some field that people think of as being for 'smart' people and measure the people in it, the average IQ will be quite high

this has been demonstrated for decades

>>10984059
You are approaching IQ as if it were a fundamental truth and not a test written and rewritten by the people who administer it.

>>10984079
im approaching it as it were an imperfect measure of somebody's intelligence. A score that correlates with ability in other activities that require intelligence. Which is what it is.

>>10984086
>im approaching it as it were an imperfect measure of somebody's intelligence. A score that correlates with ability in other activities that require intelligence.
Listen to yourself, it's pseudoscience.

>>10984090
pseudoscience would mean that it doesn't correlate. That we can't take the average IQ of a group and make fairly accurate predictions about their abilities and outcomes.

>>10984090
>it's pseudoscience.
IQ is the most widely studied and accepted Phenomenon in ALL of psychology. By rejecting IQ you would have to reject EVERYTHING else that has ever come out of the field of psychology.

Now let's see how you dance yourself around that, kiddo.

>>10984099
>That we can't take the average IQ of a group and make fairly accurate predictions about their abilities and outcomes.
And we can't, unless of course we also control the definitions of success or failure.

>>10979826
>an ardent zionist
not really

>>10984107
well of course we have to control the definitions of succes and failure. IQ does not predict for social success or even reproductive success at present.

It predicts for things related to intelligence. If you look at professions considered intelligent, things like Law, Physics, Mathematics, the average IQs are very high.

It also correlates with things like crime in more subtle ways.

But of course it doesn't correlate with just 'success' for any possible definition of success, that would be absurd.

>>10983842
We all evolved to roughly the same intelligence dumbass

>>10984154
No we didn't. We all evolved to adapt to our environment.

If you believe that an IQ of ~60 is roughly the same as 100-110. Then I got some bad news for you. dumbass.

>The mark of a charlatan--say the writer and pseudo-rationalist Sam Harris--is to defend his position or attack a critic by focusing on some specific statement ("look at what he said") rather than blasting his exact position ("look at what he means" or more broadly, "look at what he stands for")--for the latter requires an extensive grasp of the proposed idea

B L O W N
T H E
F U C K
O U T

>>10983702
can't wait to read an article I won't understqand from a scientific racist, really brightens my day

>>10976966
disgusting thread, your pet niggers will do absolutely nothing but bite

>>10984126
>IQ predicts for [...] intelligence
>look at professions considered intelligent
"considered" intelligent and "predicted intelligence" are some pretty big claims here. It's easy to lay down these ideas and be satisfied by how simple (and right) they seem to be, but you never break away from my point a couple of posts back. IQ is an abstraction of what we define as "success". Of course a person would need a "high" IQ for those fields because those fields are our very (modern) definition of intelligence (and not to mention highly competitive).This is exactly why it is pseudoscience, the fact that everything comes with a "tend to" or "correlate in subtle ways" but no actual hard measures or sure signs. This is why I have a problem with IQ being a "predictor" when it is often applied after the fact. You may as well divine chicken bones to see if someone is going to graduate college or not.

>>10984209
so disgustingly vain, and probably barely above 100 iq. you people have immense hubris

>>10984209
>You may as well divine chicken bones to see if someone is going to graduate college or not.
You seem to have an very dismal understanding of what IQ and intelligence really is. You should really start reading and watching presentations/lectures by people who have studied this for decades. There are countless of studies on IQ, and many of these studies are very good.

Do this, before you start to embarrass your self with your ignorance.

>>10984209
that's not what pseudoscience is though. Pseudoscience fabricates correlation where there is none.

What you're saying is that this is not hard science, which it is not, it's social science. But you have to understand that throwing out everything that uses statistics is an absurd proposition.

I think you're too hung up this 'success' thing, or even on the definiton of intelligence. Intelligence as commonly understood in the 'school smarts' sense, which everybody understands, is measured fairly well by IQ. That is all the IQ scientists are really saying.

And you agree that the 70 IQ 10 year olds are not going to be physicists. Well the 100IQ 10 year olds aren't likely to be physicists either. IQ is harder to measure in childhood but it isn't just random either. So it is a valid predictive measure.

All of your objections and points are valid, but they are all addressed in the studies on this topic. They've been doing this for a very long time now.

>>10984226
>iq is social science

>>10984234
IQ studies are part of psychology, which is a social science. This is so obvious I dont quite understand why you even posted

>>10984241
Reminder: If you reject the phenomenon of IQ, you would have to reject EVERYTHING that has ever come out of Psychology. IQ is the most validated phenomenon in all of Psychology.

>>10984216
>>10984222
>man if you just believed in the same thing I believe in
ok

>>10984226
>They've been doing this for a very long time now.
And yet they haven't gotten any better at it. I'm not trying to undermine every study of intelligence (or ignore it's obvious importance), I'm just trying to keep it in line with reality since so many people now (and probably always) think it's 100% accurate.

>>10984249
>reject everything that has ever come out of psychology

done

>>10983031
you sound like a bluepilled faggot lefty. I'm looking forward to crushing you and other of your bug kind

>>10984252
>done
I got to admit, I kek'd.

But I still think you are wrong.

>>10984250
well they have gotten better at it, they removed a lot of stuff that was deemed 'culturally biased' and refined the tests in other ways, mostly to do with trying to more closely approximate 'g', which is supposedly a general intelligence.

But yes it's social science and as such vague, prone to error, and lacking proper explanatory power. It also does collapse something which is potentially multi-dimensional into one dimension, though it isn't clear to me that the specific thing in question here, which seems very near to being simply 'pattern recognition ability' isn't basically a one-dimensional phenomenon.

>>10984103
>>10984249
>quoting a Peterson video almost verbatim as an argument, twice
hiroshima should nuke this board

>>10984279
Except you're missing the fact that IQ is fundamentally a statistic. It's just ranking. You take 1000 people administer them any test. Any at all. Then rank them in order. The people who are in the top will stay in the top across domain no matter what you test. The people in the bottom stays in the bottom too. Of course there's variance in everything but this is the point of IQ result in that it is predictive enough to bet money on. The only arguments that you can make is about tests where rankings cannot be made and that it. Even in physical test the people who are at the top are not retards.

>>10984301
>hiroshima should nuke this board
>hiroshima should nuke
>hiroshima

Um...anon...are you fucking retarded?

>>10981890

Yoruba art is good, but it was a brief period of flourishing, almost two millenia after classical antiquity.
Whereas antiquity continually echoes its influence in the present.
It's the exception that proves the rule about sub saharans

>>10979826
>an ardent zionist
what

>>10985038
welcome newfriend

>>10981729
Sam believes that if he gives his opponent a dose of R&R (Reason and Rationality) slowly they will come to their senses and wake up to find Sam to be right

He doesnt recognize that humans thrive off of irrationality and emotionally charged statements, and most people cling to whoever sounds “the best”, whoever they emotionally identify closest with, not who has the most reasonable and rational arguments

If you want a man to hate you, tell him he is wrong and heres 40 reasons why im right. The two of you will proceed to argue, convinced you are right, without changing the other persons mind

Every now and then an emotionally open person can see past the emotional entanglements arguments create, but most people dont, and they become emotionally closed off to changing their minds right from the beginning

We both knew Ezra and Sam werent going to say “you were right i was wrong sorry for the mess i created” they went into this guns out

gosh darn if only these emotional people weren't so goddamn muddled by their feeelings they'd do the right thing and commence with first strike nuclear assault

I can hear Joe Rogan getting mad at this thread right now

>>10978650
>5 races
theres 16 unique haplogroups in the human species jackass, stop getting your facts from 19th century texts

>>10981712

The only instance of Taqqiya used actively was by Shiite Muslims using it to appear as Sunni Muslims to prevent them from getting killed.

Acting like it's an active tool in every Muslim's kit is so massively fucking retarded, that I don't know where to start. Then again, you're a halfwit /pol/stain, so no suprise there.

>>10985497
>more taqqiya
Thanks for proving my point dalmar

>>10985500
the majority of muslims dont bother reading the quran or hadiths, its not really "lying" if the only thing you read was the bastardised copy of the quran sanctioned by the local mullah

>>10985079
all Jews are zionists. don't fall for yid taqiyya

>>10983226
Apparently it's upspeak or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal

>>10986055
>The high rising terminal (HRT), also known as moronic interrogative

>>10978996
>I just need to plant a flag here
>What you're saying is software that I am unable to install
>This metaphysical cookie

>>10985038
yes, but what does that have to do with my post?

>>10978593
>>10978601
>>10978612
is sam harris the dark enlightenment guy

no i'm thinking of nick land

is anyone shitting on nick land

>>10984164
That requires way too much time spent in the exact same environment that humans do not have. Even our bodies is not adapted to the civilization we needed.

>IQ of ~60 is roughly the same as 100-110
It is when compared to other species

>>10986747
both hbd realists though
both agi realists

>>10978996
>my having a foothold in this debate shows that my winning it means that my being a vastly superior human being is my accepting the truth

>>10978612
(Sam Harris's power is lightning or something) always gets me.

>>10986989
yeah but is anyone shitting on him

i'm fairly certain that almost nobody knows who nick land is

>>10987106
https://qz.com/1007144/the-neo-fascist-philosophy-that-underpins-both-the-alt-right-and-silicon-valley-technophiles/

>>10977384
Daily reminder that Chomsky is just a fucking linguist and has no actual legitimacy entering the world of politics either from his educational background or his actual published materials on political thought.

>>10979826
>Chomsky, though also an ardent Zionist
It's quite clear you've never done any research into Chomsky.

Holy shit.

>>10988118
Kind of like Pinker the neoliberal apologist. These language nerds should stick to their lane.

>>10977470
He's a phd neuroscientist and philosopher who'd authored many books before he ever had a podcast

>>10977439
lol

>>10988834

I like Sam sometimes but he's oftentimes fucking cringeworthy. His grasp of foreign affairs is laughable as is is ventures into philosophy and neuroscience. He wouldn't be famous if his mom didn't write for Golden Girls.

He needs to get of Twitter and stop getting into spats like this. No one would have remembered this Vox article if he didn't sperg out about it for a year. No one gives a shit if these publications call you racist.

The Klein podcast was a waste of time. They argued past one another and never directly engaged the main points of the opponent.

>>10989056
Alexander wouldn't be famous if it wasn't for daddy handing him an empire either

>>10985802
imagine how stupid you have to be to actually believe this

>>10989083
Difference is Alexander conquered Asia. Sam Harris appeals to a small section of white males who aren't in work.

>>10982383
Yeah I'm listening to it now, and I gotta say this is the highest grade kvetching I've ever had the displeasure of hearing. That they're even entertaining serious discussion on HBD is an incredible step forward though. A couple years ago and the progressive orthodoxy would've had to stage a full blown character assassination on poor old sammy here. A shame he couldn't keep up, sure. But the Overton Window has shifted. And when more research comes to light, squabbles like these would be none more than the empty bickering I see it as right now.

>>10983031
epi-genetics are still genetics you idiot. how do you think protein structures are organized without genes? the environment just comes in and magically reorganizes tissue growth and hormone release? Everything about you is controlled by the gene. Everything.

>>10984170
that guy has wicked awkward body language

>>10977470
Anybody have a link to that forum post that absolutely eviscerates Harris?

He was basically a NEET sloth frolicking around the world until he decided to study neuroscience and then used his Mother's TV connections to become established.

>>10989835
the environment has a significant effect on epigenetics
here’s one such case: http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/features/142195/beyond-dna-epigenetics

>>10985189
You're right. I find Sam to be autistic and perhaps naive in this way, though i often agree with his points

>>10990007
thats... my point

>>10989529
>Human biological diversity is being defended by fucking Sam Harris
I doubt he understands the first thing about race naturalism in the modern context

>>10990381
>>10989835
how?
how is that your point?
>Everything about you is controlled by the gene. Everything.
and yet:
>When scientists talk about epigenetics they are referring to all the cases in which the genetic code alone isn’t enough to describe what’s happening—there must be something else going on as well. That is one of the ways that epigenetics is described scientifically: where things that are genetically identical can actually appear quite different from one another. But there has to be a mechanism that brings out this mismatch between the genetic script and the final outcome. Epigenetic effects must be caused by some sort of physical change, some alterations in the vast array of molecules that make up the cells of every living organism. That leads us to the other scientific way of viewing epigenetics—the molecular description. In this model, epigenetics can be defined as the set of chemical modifications surrounding and attaching to our genetic material that change the ways genes are switched on or off, but don’t alter the genes themselves.

>>10977535
No its not and Charles Murrey is a political scientist, not an actual scientist.

>>10990406
>change the ways genes are switched on or off

>>10990423
yes?
what is the issue?
do you dislike the metaphor?
for what reason?

>>10978650
Yes anon, I'm sure people mean Caucasoid when they mention "white people"
Look at all those white people in North Africa and the middle east

>>10990445
sorry, you seem reasonable i will stop being a dick
"epigenetic" is a heuristic used to describe genetic traits that arise from non-bimodal expression. The issue lies with causal complexity not an underlying structural difference in action. the gene is still the underlying cause but the route is difficult to determine. hormones for instance can play a large epigenetic factor; things from diet to exercise to social situation can epigenetically affect gene expression. I expect epigenetics will fade as a explanandum as we progress in biology.

>>10988118
>has no actual legitimacy entering the world of politics either from his educational background

>I have no meaningful argument with him that actually addresses anything he's said and will completely ignore his meticulously researched points because he isn't an *OFFICIAL AUTHORIZED POLITICAL SCIENCE DUDE* in my books, so there