/lit/ - Literature

>>10975924
That thread is garbage. Especially the guy somehow with a masters that said "fuck Plato." Looking at Philosophy in that way is plain wrong.

>>10975946
more confirmation that modern education is a joke

>>10975924
they're just saying you should look at a textbook to have a general idea of what philosophy even is before reading primary sources or you'll be confused. this assumes that you live in a shithole with a horrible education system that didn't already give you a basic overview of philosophy in high school. if you actually have a high-school level of literacy and knowledge there's no reason why you shouldn't be reading a socratic dialogue. the reddit thread is for barely literate normies who got burned by plato because they went to him straight from harry potter.

>>10975946
Yeah I’m sure that guy doesn’t have a masters; this is a completely reductionist viewpoint on philosophy.

>>10975946
He isn't wrong

>>10975946
>A man born 400 years BC was wrong about stuff
The absolute retardation of redditors... If you dsmiss Plato because his conclusions were 'wrong' with no regard as to the influential aspects of HOW he got there then you have no right going near a philosophy lecture, let alone parading a master's degree in the field as if you know something about it.

>>10975924
This is the same people who find the Stoic insight that you have some control over your thoughts fucking revelatory

>>10975957
>>10975972
Plato made philosophy worse.

>>10975979
you make the world worse with your shitty opinions

>>10975979
>Plato made philosophy
Fixd

>>10975946
>tfw people don't realise that Plato was actually right about everything
https://youtu.be/en3YTSViS6s?t=6m35s

>>10975963
Mother fucker claims to understand plato and has the fucking balls to say he is ‘wrong’ and then goes on to say that plato’s understanding of mind/body is dualistic. I would kick a cunt’s teeth in

>>10975924
el goblino

>>10975995
That he thinks Plato is wrong is even the bad part I think, it's that he deserves to getted "fucked" for being wrong that irks me.

>>10975946
bro democritus was fr*ckin epic.. he was like the neil degrase tyson of greecr or sumthin. he invented atoms right? epicurus makes way more sense thn plato.. its just common senese

>>10975946
>unlike, say, Democritus or Epicurus
the worst thing is, he wouldn't be so intolerable if he didn't write like a faggot. it is utterly natural to prefer some of the presocratics over the "errors" of platonism... but... "wrong about pretty much everything" ugh! you can tell this man only likes democritus and epicurus for their resemblance to his easily received materialist hedonist apathy...

PLATO FUCKING SUCKS!!!!11!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9b0hLDZIZU

>>10975984
kek

>>10975957
>>10975963
>>10975972
>>10975993
>>10975995
>>10975998
>>10976002
>>10976006
Plato was wrong. Get over it and stop worshipping old things because they're old and foundational, pseuds.

>>10976014
I'm literally a Platonist. He wasn't wrong.

>>10975957
>>10975963
>>10975983
>>10975984
fuck off with your false idol worship. Plato was not god's gift to philosophy - there were many other thinkers that could have had their ideas take precedence over his and had a much more beneficial influence on the history of philosophy.

>>10976014
yeah, you fucks, stop appreciating the floorboards in your house, and just tear them up. they weren't placed optimally and even though they have been perfectly acceptable for generations, we have to get rid of them immediately!

>>10976014
Plato was wrong... but he conforms more to the good than the redditor... who is demon,

>>10976024
>Plato wasn't greek Jesus

>>10976024
>>10976014
t. Masters in philosophy from Reddit University

>>10976006
>materialist hedonist apathy.
i want you to know that i rolled my eyes at this

i haven't read it but it might be true, you know. the non-classical public very often misunderstand the greeks. there are no good translations made for the average person who doesn't already know lots about them

>>10976002
trying too hard

>>10976037
i am sympathetic to epicureanism though, you see... but i am revolted by the sort of, easy confirmation that the redditor finds in his philosophy. it's simply more palatable to him by default than plato, so he extolls him as "right about everything" immediately and denounces plato unequivocally

>>10975946
i'm so triggered right now, thanks

>>10976019
really embarrassing thing to say

>>10976026
oh dear

>>10976068
for you

>>10976024
>>10976014
Morons.
Plato is the bedrock for Philosophy and is important regardless of how correct he is factually today. We don’t discount Adam Smith for classical economics.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if he actually had a PhD in philosophy. These are the kinds of people who will be teaching in the universities and advancing academic philosophy tomorrow. Do you think analytic-oriented courses actually teach you Plato properly? It's half of one semester, then you breeze through Aristotle and jump to Descartes next semester. Academic philosophy is garbage unless you're going to the best universities in the world, or really luck out with an amazing professor. I dropped out of phil mostly because the historical courses sucked ass.

>>10975946
LMAO this reminds me of that time I was eating with my family and they were watching one of those retarded discussion programs and some feminist guy said we should totally destroy the work of western philosophy starting with Plato because it was the intellectual foundation of the heteropatriarchy, had to go to the bathroom to bite the towel because I got so triggered.

>>10976101
I would think someone interested in philosophy would start with the Classics on his own.

>>10976125
that man.. was freiderich nietzsche

>>10976036
kek

>>10976125
fuck me

>>10976125
it's true though, Plato and Aristotle were racist, mysoginistic and queerphobic by today's standars, why keep placing these long dead white man on a pedestal when their words are literally harming living marginalised folks to this day? I cannot stand by while people suffer. White dudes shouldn't think themselves cleverer and better than thou for reading old books, instead, they should try listening to the less better off people in society such as women, PoC and queer people. Fact: most 'leftist' bros in the humanitites are motivated by a fear of women in positions of power rather than by genuine anti-capitalism

>>10976421
Greeks aren't white you cuck

>>10976433
the othering dynamics of western culture are already present in Homer and Herodotus. Greek culture was heavily patriarchal and misogynistic. It's our duty to deconstruct it. See how the alt right and reactionary bros are so fond of the classiscs the canon and muh greek statues? there is a very real white supremacist power associated with these discourses

>>10976433
Greeks were Indo-Europeans so yes, white.

>>10976421
What about their metaphysics?

>>10976455
what about priorities? what about the lived experiences of marginalized folks? Are you seriously expecting queers and people of color to forget about their problems, forget they have been othered and dehumanized by people like you for millenia and just praise the white cishet man for inventing human rights and philosophy

>>10975993
do NOT associate Simone with such shit music

>>10976088
>Plato is the bedrock for Philosophy and is important regardless of how correct he is factually today
Never said otherwise

>>10976465
No, I just asked what you thought about their metaphysics.

So what do you think about their Metaphysics?

I'm brainlet but I had course on political philosophy and while Plato was interesting to read I always though that Machiavelli and Hobbes made more sense.

>>10976487
Plato was more prescriptive.

Hobbes and Machiavelli were just more descriptive.

>>10975946
Show me one (1) thing Aristotle was wrong about. I dare you.

>>10976421
brainlet tier
>hating Plato and Aristotle because they were racist, mysoginistic and queerphobic by today's standars
midwit tier
>Hating Plato and Aristotle because philosophy is the origin of western nihilism
genius tier
>Hating Plato and Aristotle because western metaphysics is the origin of the unveiling of Being that spawned tecnè that in turn makes us forgetful towards Being

>>10975979
Nietzsche may say things like that; Reddit may not.

>>10976479
You can't separate metaphysics from ethic or politics. Plato's theory of forms is normative, it implicitly enshrines a white male ideal and has been used to justify oppressed norms. Same goes for Aristotles' teleology, which carried over to the Church's policing of queer people and women's bodies and later to the western right that declared PoC countries as terra nullius and non whites as subhuman

>>10976502
have you heard of physics?

>>10975995
B-Brainlet here, please explain how it isn't?

>>10976502
that the purpose of the brain was to cool the body and had nothing to do with thought.

>>10976517
delete this

>>10976506
cosmic knowledge tier
>Hating Plato and Aristotle because they unveiled only the waking part of Being, and did not create a techne for categorizing that which is only essence

>>10976530
no can do, kid

>>10975924
>Plato
>investigates literally every philosophical possibility talked about over the last 2,000 years
>creates Western Idealism
>still the dominant mode of thinking
lol you just know these guys havent stepped foot in a philo. class

>>10976517
>>10976520
>>10976546
Listen, you little shits, I didn't mean it literally, okay.

>>10976533
elder god tier
>hating Plato because he is responsible for the decadence of sophia caused by his creation of philo-sophia and the disembodiment of the apollonian-dyonisian dialectical logos embodied in the presocratics

>>10976570
elder übergod tier
>recognising all of this and and still not hating him for it

>>10975946

>Plato's mind/body dualism

But this is a misreading of Plato....

>>10976515
>You can't separate metaphysics from ethic or politics.

Aristotle did. It's why he has a different book for each.

>>10976421
>>10976451
excellent bait

>>10976590
Intersectionality is real philosophy, metaphysics is pointless speculation for privileged dudes

>>10976601
Metaphysics is really just a precursor to physics/consciousness.

It can still be studied on the basis of that idea. Are you honestly telling me right now that movements of things have no moral beginnings/ends? Then you are no better than an apatheist.

>implying philosophy is about truth instead of the process of organic development in the western Geist leading to the liberal-democratic state

>>10975946
>"fuck Plato."

based

>>10976576
oneness tier
>forgiving Plato and Aristotle for the suffering they have laid upon Man's shoulders, and begging forgiveness for the grudge you held against them

>>10976616
If you want to know about moral ends, you should try listening to marginalized folks. Concepts such as micro aggressions and implicit bias are extensively proved by psychiatric research

>>10976626
>implying Nietzsche would have let someone less smart than him get away with something like that

>>10976601
>>10976638
you're overdoing it

>>10976638
What can marginalized people tell me about metaphysics? Or physics for that matter?

>>10976576
based

>>10976644
Our generation found an objective and irrefutable epistemological basis for ethics, aesthetics and politics in the form of empathy and the lived experiences of marginalized folks such as queers and PoC. Why shouldn't we use it to win internet arguments?

>>10976630
Reminder to go to church

>What can marginalized people tell me about metaphysics
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-metaphysics/

Not that troll above, but he's not completely wrong - the canonical tradition of graeco-christian metaphysics cannot suffice on its own, perspectives of groups who historically didn't have access to the philosophical discourse are useful in continuing that discourse. The field of metaphysics has a relevant political economy like any other.

>>10976421
>>10976465

You joke, but I literally had a girl start talking about white privilege and start crying about the plight of the homeless in a class about Greek philosophy back in 2013. She was white of course.

>>10976630
Ugh, dont put your jewish seed where it doesnt belong, christcuck.

>>10976681
Oh of course, but in place of Aristotle? I think not.

>>10975924
I want nothing more than so rape her so violently that she unknowingly develops a fetish for it, so that she will either never be satisfied again or succumb to a life of budget whoring.

>>10976681
>S is a woman if and only if

>S is regularly and for the most part observed or imagined to have certain bodily features presumed to be evidence of a female’s biological role in reproduction;
>that S has these features marks S within the dominant ideology of S’s society as someone who ought to occupy certain kinds of social position that are in fact subordinate (and so motivates and justifies S occupying such a position); and
>the fact that S satisfies (i) and (ii) plays a role in S’s systematic subordination, that is, along some dimension, S’s social position is oppressive, and S’s satisfying (i) and (ii) plays a role in that dimension of subordination.

ANGELA MERKEL ISN'T A WOMAN CONFIRMED

>>10976689
>implying Christ represents a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, and was not in actuality an avatar of the Platonic Form of the Good.
Start with the Greeks.

>>10975946
I'm triggered right now.

>>10976699
Eugh, hardly metaphysics.

>>10975924
>>10975946
>4 years old thread

>>10976721
t. Angela Merkel

>>10976695
It's good that you Americans left Europe, you essentially got your own containment country over there where you can be retarded together

>>10976699
serious question: why do we have an issue with women in positions of power?

>From Circe to Clinton: why powerful women are cast as witches
>A misogynist insult in Washington and Westminster, a force for good in Hollywood … for centuries, witches have personified fear of assertive women. But why does the stereotype persist?


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/apr/07/cursed-from-circe-to-clinton-why-women-are-cast-as-witches

>>10976741
I'm not sure what point are you trying to make.

I wonder if this is the guy that shows up in every Aquinas or Aristotle thread and starts spamming Kant

>>10976750
the vicious hate directed at Clinton, Merkel, May goes far beyond the partisan.

>>10976799
Yeah but how has this anything to do with Merkel not being a woman

>>10976741
serious question: why do we not have an issue with a woman and a political party who admitted to rigging the primary election after they were caught

>>10976808
Merkel and Clinton are very much women. The gender pay gap is real, the way female politicians are treated is different from the way male politicians are treated.

>>10976824
>Merkel and Clinton are very much women
Merkel isn't, according to the aforementioned definition.

It needs to be proven that Angela Merkel is a human being, before we can set out any analysis of her gender position.

>>10976815
because people love dirty politicians its sexy, nobody wants another hitler, virtue and politics are oil and water. especially blind virtue and absolute morals, you're going to destroy your country with that shit.

>>10976849
im dying

>>10975946
>unlike say Democritus or Epicurus

>>10976868
Yeah I saw that too.

Epicurus' metaphysics is borderline retarded.

>>10976826
all else equal, Angela Merkel would be in a subordinate position next to an hypothetical male german chancellor who was alike to her in every aspect besides gender. intersectionality 101

>>10976753
He's not wrong. Kant was right about everything.

>>10976879
>because I said so
Ok

>>10976002
>*
Opinion discarded.

>>10976753

The funny thing is that Kant was read as a sort of Aristotlean by very many eminent philosophers. This idea of a sharp break is not at all clear.

Not to mention all this nonsense about Plato contradicting himself.
Has he forgotten that Plato wrote dialogues? How one is to even extract doctrine is not at all clear.

>>10976815
You know it's about more than that. If only White male 'leftists' cared as much for sexual assault and structural racismas they do for Clinton's supposed misdeeds (never mind that she has been targeted by the right wing hate machine for decades and has been an inspiration for billions of women)

>>10976421
This is bait. We should still hurl sodomites off of rooftops though

>>10977006
This is bait. We should still hurl sodomites off of rooftops though

philosophy is useless pseudo-science, and philosophers are pedants

>>10976996
This is bait. Just bait. Go to >>>/pol/ worthless Clinton apologist shariablue anon.

>>10977018
isn't Plato's chief criticism of homosexuality that it is too distracting, so to just leave it at kissing and holding hands? I haven't read too much Plato, but that one tract in the symposium is pretty gay.

>>10976101
Fuck off I went to a shit uni and read plato in phil, poli, and liberal studies. I read Plato more than any other author in a double major poli/phil. Plato is still heavily studied in academia, don’t be a brainlet.

damn its like people on reddit are actually educated while people around here all reek of "audidacticism"

>>10976421
Greeks practiced techne, read more Heidegger

>>10977059
t. uneducated redditor

>>10975946
It just baffles me that this absolute fucking hole of a site actually has better post quality than that shite.
Even our pseuds are better than their pseuds.

>>10977051
>i went to a shit uni
>i read plato in every class

i wonder if this is related

>>10977037
>Plato's chief criticism of homosexuality that it is too distracting, so to just leave it at kissing and holding hands?

This is sort of right if you limit yourself to the Symposium.

Plato was limited by the retarded notion that every homosexual is either a top or a bottom, what would his criticism be of a loving vomited couple who engage in various positions?

>>10977615
comitted lol

>>10975972
So why not just read the Bible at that point? It's an old book that is wrong about nearly everything but it's ok because it's old.

>>10977631
you should read the bible as well if you want to be an educated person.

>>10975946
/lit/ards going all out

>>10977026
philosophy is a non-science

>>10976024
But almost all of history and philosophy is anti-Plato. Even where they try to follow him they tend to bastardise his ideas.

>>10975984
>Plato made ontology as contrasted with ontic being
fix'd

>>10976036

>>10977822
god damn al gore looks like shit these days

>>10976502

He thought you could fit a larger volume of water into a barrel by first putting the water in wineskins.

>>10975993
What the fuck, is this real?
>REEE REEE REE REeREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

>>10976037
>having only two reactions

>>10976421
https://youtu.be/H3pntGBylho

>>10976433
>Confirmed for not having read Aristotle's Metaphysics

Begone philistine

>>10976685

Here's an interesting product of Harvard:
https://youtu.be/8mpUrE0uOYc

>>10977873
Why the cockroaches and the cat?

>>10976570
can you explain this please? im a young brainlet

>>10976026
Honestly you just hurt your argument.

>>10977631
>it's ok because it's old.
Congrats, you entirely missed his point, but yes, you actually should read the Bible too if you have any interest in understanding humanity.

>>10978307
He's just saying that he's a Nietzsche fanboy.

>>10978015
he's right tho

>>10977631
lol why read anything written before 2018
like dude
check a fucking calendar bro