/lit/ - Literature

>>10923459
>What's the deal with Christfags?
Evangelizing
>Is the Bible worth reading?
Totally
>Does Christian apologetics make a credible case from a philosophical standpoint?
Yeah, see Thomism.
>Why are there so many Christfags and is the credit given to Christianity for Western culture deserved?
free evangelization of natives(10 million Aztecs converted to Christianity in 10 years in the 16th century; that is one example of the benevolence of unforced conversion)
>Is there real value to The Bible as allegory or are its premises negated by more credible systems of philosophy?
Well, the Bible is a library of different genres and of course it is used to make Christianity credible from a philosophical standpoint. idk what you mean by allegory though.

Sorry about the terseness; Just giving you the surface of it.

>>10923459
>Is the Bible worth reading?
Only if you like knowing literally ANYTHING about the Western canon.
To be a student of literature (or any art / Humanities whatsoever) without a thorough or at the very least working knowledge of the Bible is to doom yourself to eternal pseuditry.
Good news, though: it's a thumping good read. Highly recommend the Book of John as a starting off point. Follow that with Revelation, and then go around as you like. Depending on the translation, the Psalms and Job and the Song of Songs constitute some of the world's greatest poetry. Genesis after you've read John is very pleasurable.
Have fun, anon. Leave this place and edify yourself.

>>10923479
Which Bible should I read

>>10923459
>...a credible case from a philosophical standpoint?
Thoroughly read and come to understand Thomas Aquinas and Augustine. Then come back here and try to argue the contrary.
Pro tip: You won't be able to.

>>10923484
King James Version to read what Shakespeare read and was deeply influenced by.
New American Bible or Revised Standard Version for accuracy of translation.

>>10923484
New Revised Standard Version with Apocrypha, plus the Book of Enoch.

>Give me the basic gestalt
start with Plato, and then:
Aristotle
Philo
Plotinus
the Gnostics
Justin Martyr
Saint Irenaeus
Gregory of Nyssa
Tertullian
Saint Augustine
Saint Anselm
Saint Bernard of Clairvaux
Hugh of Saint Victor
Avicenna
Averroes
Bonaventure
Saint Thomas Aquinas

then come back

Mark is the best gospel prove me wrong.

>>10923459
I'll go a little off the beaten path here for you, OP, as I have already seen some fantastic suggestions in here re: the Bible and philosophy.

One of Christianity's greatest advantages is its openness to mysticism, and its poets. If you want to have a mystical experience, Christianity provides pretty surefire ways to pull it off, whether it be through St. Theresa of Avila or through St. John of the Cross.

Dante and Fr. Gerard Manley Hopkins constitute the poetic energy of the Church at their intensest concentration. Longfellow translation for Dante, btw, unless you want to just read the prose.

>>10923548
I mean, it's an embarrassment of riches, but Mark is my personal least favorite. It goes
>John
>Luke
>Matthew
>Mark

>>10923553
Why don't you like Mark, anon? I mean John is also a great gospel for completely different reasons, but putting Luke and Matthew above Mark just doesn't seem right to me.

>>10923557
I'm trying to word my preference so as not to disparage Mark, since it's also fantastic - those four books are my 4 favorite books! Instead, why don't you tell me why Mark is your favorite, anon? I'd be interested to hear why! ^_^

>>10923575
I like Mark specifically because it has, in my opinion, the most care put into any gospel to its larger composition. Mark frames each section of the gospel with similar narratives that fit in thematically to the chunk as a whole. You can see this most clearly with the fig tree episode, but my favorite instance of it is definitely the healing of the deaf man, and then the healing of the blind man at Bethaisda much later. Matthew and Luke based their gospels at least partially on Mark, but they change his composition. In Matthew and Luke, stories such as the fig tree or the healings are put in at seemingly random points in the respective gospels, where in Mark it was very clear he was trying to focus the reader around a larger idea or a larger point he was trying to make by using these smaller stories to frame a wider narrative.

Also, I like Mark because it provides a complicated picture of Jesus that you don't really get from the other gospels. John is the exception here, but his gospel portrays Jesus as almost this godlike being far separated from humanity, where Mark's Jesus is a far more human, and therefore a far more compelling figure.

>>10923459
It is the most influential book in existence. This cannot be denied, and should speak for itself.

Philosophy aims to learn of the truth, and there is no truth outside of God. Read and judge for yourself. Aquinas and Augustine are incredible reading.

I apologize for being brief; asserting without explanation. I tire and must sleep.

In short, you need to read it if you are a conscious being.

>>10923548
Matthew is my favorite. The way he treats the dealongs with the pharisees is spectacular. It is matthew more than the others that really give me a sense of both the humor and wisdom of God

>>10923595
Well said.
Personally, I like my Jesus as close to the Gnostic characterization as possible while still being orthodox: hence, my love of John, which has Jesus, as you rightly say, just about bursting from his own flesh due to the power of his own spirit and the mind-shattering potency of his thought.
But your case for Mark is astute and it gives me a new appreciation for him. I think I'll give it another read with a fresh point of view tomorrow morning. Thanks, anon.

>>10923549
I might add, it's mysticism with reason. It never goes so far as Sufi, or gemmatria, or budhism. It's mysticism is one of harmony and patience, not secret paths and magic.

>>10923617
Another thing to keep in mind is that Mark is considered a Pauline or "outsider" gospel, specifically because of its treatment of the disciples compared with the unnamed faithful that come to see Jesus. Look at how Jesus treats the disciples.

Another thing, read it without any verses, headings or chapters. Read it like the author intended to and you'll stop atomizing everything that's in the gospel and see it for its whole. Too often does study of the Bible focus on digesting the small chunks, sifting out the ones that don't seem significant and digesting the morsels that seem somehow more important.

Read it as a continuous narrative instead of a collection of stories and sayings, and you'll appreciate it more.

Christ is the most profound figure in history.

I wish some of you highly intelligent Bible-readers would lend a hand in my picking a confirmation saint....! I have a thread up about it: I want, I think, to do one of the three Archangels, but I'm having a lot of trouble committing to one, they're all so fascinating ... and I also feel a little like picking an Archangel is a bit of a cop-out desu :/

Any feedback would be very very welcome....

>>10923640
This is good advice. I will take it. Thanks, anon.

>>10923662
>intelligent bible readers
>picking a confirmation saint
J U S T
U
S
T

>>10923667
No problem anon, I'm always in support of people reading the Bible with a more critical and thoughtful eye

>>10923620
That is a good amendment, indeed.

Although there is also such a thing as esoteric Christianity; unfortunately, it has a nasty tendency of ditching everything that makes Christianity, Christianity. I wish there were some saint of the "occult" who was able to open some new way into Christian mysticism without ever uttering a single heresy. I don't even know what that would look like desu, but I wish it were real.
>inb4 "be the change you want to see in the world"
I know, I'm trying

>>10923671
What's the problem with picking a confirmation saint anon? :(

>>10923678
I'm just pulling your chain. I was raised Protestant so I don't really do all the "saints" stuff. To each his own though.

saints as Catholicism use them don't really exist in the Bible though. Important figures of Christianity do exist, like Peter, John and Paul, but none of them are described as "saints" in the Bible at all.

>>10923515
lmao
Yeah, OP,
>See you in 4 years. Then we'll talk.
But seriously:
Plato
Aristotle
The Bible
Augustine
Aquinas

That will actually
>give [you] the basic gestalt

>>10923688
Ohhh. Ha!

Yeah, I recognize that about the saints, but I frankly enjoy it, embellishment though I recognize it may well be. That's my take on a lot of what I've encountered in Catholicism actually, lol

That said: you mind my asking what denomination of protestant you are? Or are you a rugged Christian individualist? Or are you just an interested party, as it were?

>>10923459
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

>John 14:6

>>10923459
Just rad the anti-christ, by Nietzsche and you can say you hate god. It works for me.

>>10923676
Check out 2 writers. Vladimir Lossky and Gregory Palamas

>>10923459
>What's the deal with Christfags?
>>10923600
>asserting without explanation

>>10923459
>Is the Bible worth reading?
Yes, even if you put all religious meaning aside there are great stories, lore, philosophy and aesthetics.

>>10923479
>>10923600
>Philosophy aims to learn of the truth, and there is no truth outside of God
>To be a student of literature (or any art / Humanities whatsoever) without a thorough or at the very least working knowledge of the Bible is to doom yourself to eternal pseuditry

Where did you faggots all come from? The amount of fedora-tipping christians on this board is astounding - but what brought you here? Did you migrate from /pol/? Or are you just larping as retarded catholics to reciprocate the atheism thing on reddit?

>>10924500
They got BTFO of every other literary board on the internet, so here they all are, where their identities can be kept secret.

>>10924500
>Gets mad when someone speeks the truth
That's your normal Pharisees

>>10924511
Yeah, he can't even stand someone having a different point of view.

So. I'm starting to read the Bible. How much am I safe to read daily in order to not overflow myself with this shit? How much time should I be leaving to reflection?

>>10924507
lmao
>they have migrated from other more-hostile forums (????)
>they are here so they can be anonymous
>(never you mind that I am anonymous)
Never change, heretics.

>>10924645
Difficult to say, anon. This is really up to you. The books of the Bible vary in difficulty, genre, and recommended reflection. Also, if you're just someone interested in the stories and the text, "reflection" isn't really going to do anything for you.
If you want to get the most out of the Bible, I recommend believing or at least pretending belief, and then attempting Lectio Divina.

>>10924500
>no, YOU'RE THE FEDORA TIPPERS
>YOU ARE "LARPERS"
The fedora has always belonged to you, my friend. Embrace it. It's sad when you, while wearing one, point at others' heads and screech about what isn't there. Just be yourself. :^)

>>10924645
Some books like Job and John are reflective masterpieces, so take your time with them.
Others such as Numbers are just lists of things, such as dimensions for the ark, people in a tribe etc, so don't sweat over those.

>>10925145
I agree, you guys have the tiara

>>10925131
>>10925257
I've always preferred the agnostic look towards Christianity. I'm from Finland, and we're Lutheran here, but religion isn't a very big part of most people's life here. There are some families that are very devout Christians, but most families are not, mine has never been.
But nevertheless I've become more and more interested in reading the Bible, mostly for the literary value as it is a huge influence in all of Western literature and philosophy.
So I decided to grab bull by the horns and dive in. Started today, read the first 9 chapters of Genesis, and I'm starting to think I might've taken in too much in one sitting since I'm feeling kinda overwhelmed.
I'm reading the NKJV in English, by the way since I don't like the sound of any Finnish translations I've read, they're so clunky and the flow is very unnatural. I wonder if the fact that I'm not reading in my mothertongue factors into me being overwhelmed, probably.

>>10925281
Haha. Wow, anon. Good one. Truly scathing. You must write for Fallon or something!!!!

>>10925296
If you're into the "agnostic" interpretation, then you want to read Jung and others who can engage with the Bible as mytho-poetic literature.

I have absolutely no idea what to recommend vis-a-vis Finnish translations, I'm afraid. But I will say: the KJV can be clunky for non-native speakers of English. Even native English speakers can have difficulty with it if they're not used to that type of English.

I think the RSV would be the way to go for you. If you want to stick with KJV, then slowing way down and approaching all of it as you would English poetry should help.