/lit/ - Literature

Also what the hell is with the layout? did they change it?

>>10892113
oh its just mozilla being retarded

>>10892108
>>>/his/
You are beneight us

>>10892144
Im not asking a history question here, or are you saying that human history basically shows why this ideology is retarded?

>>10892108
The feeling is mutual. I find collectivists overly emotional, pretentious and intellectually dishonest. They claim to "care about others" but only because it makes them feel better about themselves. They steal from you and claim it's "for the greater good". They are jealous of other people's success and use philsophy to rationalize their mental inferiority and lack of ambition. They are responsible for the most murderous ideologies in human history: communism, nazism, fascism,...

>>10892108
>its like talking to a brick wall
It's more like fighting a ghost than anything tangible. In most arguments you get two players who show up to the ring wearing boxing gloves, but Rand just comes in with those pads trainers wear on their hand to block practice blows, never really throwing any punches. The typical randfag's strategy is purely defensive and contrarian, and they'll usually crumple when asked to say something beyond "all sides r bad and I'm somehow none of them!"

Usually what happens is that they generate some absurdly broad definition of "pleasure" or "want," like "pleasure/want is willingly choose," and then they'll say "ergo, people always choose pleasure" and from there declare that all philosophies are reducible to some form of strange closeted hedonism. If you can at least explain that phenomena dictates word rather than the reverse, it isn't hard to show how obviously loaded their tautology is, and once they have to stick their neck out they'll instantly fold. And yeah, some people have better arguments than the one I'm referring to, but nine times out of ten this is what you're dealing with and in the tenth case the person might actually have a good point worth listening to.

>>10892308
>pretentious
>posts le epic greek statue

>>10892175
/his/ is history and humanities. if you aren't talking about a piece of literature, /lit/ isn't the place to go

>>10892322
> thinks this is an argument

>>10892332
calling someone pretentious isn't an argument either.

>>10892308
>the most murderous ideologies in human history
>if you cant pay for the medicine you gotta go, like death
individualism isnt much more merciful

>>10892108
Pinkos out

>>10892308
Communism is materialist just like capitalism, i despise both.
Im not a fan of NatSoc but I am a Fascist. and other than the Holocaust and Utase (no body like the utase) Fascism has a very low track record

>>10892337
> creates thread painting people he disagrees with politically as mentally inferior
> gets upset when called pretentious
It just keeps getting better and better

>>10892361
>Im not a fan of NatSoc but I am a Fascist
>>>/pol/

>>10892363
Oh, the guy who said that you werent making arguments when you called me, the actual OP, pretentious...isnt me..
Thats another anon fren

>>10892350
Except you fail to factor charity. Those who wish to give to those who have nothing will. If you want to give away your money and time, do so, but it will cost you. You. Not everyone but you, only you.
Voluntary charity is both more viable and desirable than compelled charity.

>>10892370
Im not here to make political arguments, only philosophy based ones.

>>10892308
>They claim to "care about others" but only because it makes them feel better about themselves.
Does this mean that they don't care about others? You're saying this as though it were a contradiction.

>>10892381
What about the types who say that the poor are just lazy assholes who need to get a job?

>>10892361
>other than the holocaust and death squads/torture security terror states of Brazil-Greece-Spain-Argentina-Chile-El Salvedor-Nicaragua and the holocaust and Utase there is a low body count

>>10892399
Compared to the good ol us of a this aint shit tbqh

>>10892399
>chile is fascist
>el salvador is fascist
>nicarauga is fascist
now tell me which leader do you talk about when you say Brazil?
Chile was Capitalist, it is NOT fascist. Do you even know what fascism is?

>>10892409
HOLY SHIT FUCK A SMALL COUNTRY IS TRYING TO NATIONALIZE ITS RESOURCES!
>procedes to render that nation to constant civil war, and also destabilizing entire regions and installing dictators in the name of freedumb

>>10892316
Ah, this should help against Liberals (lol who carss if it doesnt harm you) and Boomers, thanks anon

>>10892411
lol fascism is a form of capitalism with socialist bulwarks, its not some special magic infallible noble 3rd position. military controls state, government meddles in industry but only to protect giga corps, terrify population, siege state, torture, secret police, warfare, death camps that’s fascism
>>10892409
relativist arguments for the moral superiority of a political system are evil

>>10892108
stop fucking talking to them
what exactly do you hope to achieve? they won't be swayed by arguments. maybe one day they when they feel their beloved individualism from the other end but even then they'll probably blame the gubmint.

>>10892381
>Voluntary charity is both more viable and desirable than compelled charity.
>more viable
beyond deluded

>>10892426
so basically you believe fascism to be every hollywood representation of a authoritarian dystopia...and fascism
wow, you're gullible.

>>10892423
>lol who carss if it doesnt harm you
Usually what's meant by this is "who cares if it doesn't harm anyone," and not just "who cares if it doesn't harm me specifically." In the latter case I see what you mean, but in the former it doesn't apply 100% of the time.

>>10892108
is the argument in the picture the one you are are fighting against? that is fucking stupid, how doesn't it affect me, you can't live in the society without getting affected by it, and if the society, with this I don't mean the whole 7 billion people but the part you are in contact with, is pathological and sick, then it will inevitably become part of you, you can't fucking avoid it, no one can, and the ones who think that they are smarter than their surrounding are the first ones to reflect all the negative characteristics of it, that they are supposedly fighting against,

and I don't want to only mind my own business, I want to fucking care about other people too and I want to, with high interest, ask myself what they do and what they think because that's a huge way to improve my viewpoints

>>10892108
>mind your own biz

*opens facebook*

Individualism is a fundamental aspect of the European character and stems from our evolutionary environment. It is good and bad: good in that it allows us to be very creative, inventive, artistic, etc.; bad in that it blinds us to the tribal behavior of others and causes us to believe that others are as individualistically minded as we are, when they aren't.

The main argument against individualism, or perhaps the argument for incorporating a greater degree of group awareness among whites, is that jews are currently attacking our societies as a racial group while browbeating whites who attempt to organize along similar lines. They have to be dealt with and kicked out, but that can't happen if we're all atomized individualists. It must be a collective effort that stems from white racial awareness.

Since I found the cuck who im talking about let me share some screenshots of why this ideology enrages me so much

>>10892462
"Just Me" is the egoist

>>10892462
>>10892468
are you arguing on steam?

>>10892381
Charity fails because of the underlying understanding that for it to work it would need to collect enough money that the charity functions as a socialist branch of the state
this inherently creates for a crueler system if only a select few can get the resources needed and theres no good determining system other than drawing sticks

tl;dr some institutions shouldn't function under certain economic systems if lives are morally considered equal

>>10892475
Looks like discord, not steam.

>>10892459
>individualism is a fundamental aspect of european culture
no its not, the Germans aren’t individualists, neither are Italians or Slavs
>kevin macdonald parackeet
oh whoops haha sorry carry on faggot pseud you have a lot to tweet tweet tweet about

>>10892475
discord

>>10892459
>Individualism is a fundamental aspect of the European character
why is this meme so popular?

>>10892392
Well obviously they're wrong to generalize that way. There are plenty of poor people who work very hard just to subsist. But luckily, economic mobility in the US is excellent. Its very easy to become well to-do (if not straight up rich) here than almost anywhere else, it just requires hard work.
But that aside, there is some validity to the criticism of poor people. With economic mobility being what it is, often times the reason people become poor or remain poor is due to poor life choices. There's also the fact that welfare is very commonly used in the US as supplemental to one's meager (or non existant) income. The system is commonly subverted and abused. I've known quite a few people to do this on a personal level, a majority of them white.
Overall its a shame, and if you ask me where the problem lies I'd argue its one of culture. That may seem like a loaded statement, but I mean across the board, not just in certain racial groups. We need to foster a culture of personal responsibility to teach people to make better choices and become successful. This affects everyone. The more prosperous, intelligent, resourceful, self-reliant people there are, the better a community becomes, its better for everyone.

You see why I hate these types of people so much?

>muh charity solves everything
I sincerely hope the state takes possession of your private property.
Libertarianism is the ultimate pseud brainlet philosophy

>>10892497
I wish people like that would face the consequences of their thoughts. Like, when they get a heart attack in the middle of the streets, that people at that moment know that he doesn't give a fuck about them, so why should they call an ambulance.

>>10892523
we need a big "Im an egoist! I dont give a fuck about any of you" sticker for everyone who holds that way of thought. like the Jude patch in Germany

>>10892486
>the Germans aren’t individualists, neither are Italians or Slavs
All Europeans are far more individualistic than any other race. Germanic people conform to moral norms more than others but this only in part overlaps.

>>10892492
It's true. Who has invented everything and is far more likely to engage in extreme individualist pursuits like sailing around the world or climbing mountains for fun or becoming specialists in an obscure field? It's overwhelmingly whites due to this individualistic sense. And again this results in whites being more creative and responsible for 97% of all innovation.

>>10892468
that's true though

>>10892489
>you realise that it would cost us a hell of worker capacity to prouce that for ourselves?
>you realize how many domestic jobs that would create?
I really wonder what his immigration policy is

>>10892497
How does he define "my people" as anything beyond "the people I care about"/how does he define "them" as anything other than "the people I happen to not care about"? It sounds like his argument here is "why should I be anything beyond whimsical?"

>>10892327
Thread should have ended here.

>>10892438
Refute my point friend. How is it less viable than compelled charity?
Good, voluntary charity benefits everyone. It enriches a community by providing opportunity to the have-nots, who may themselves be innovators or at least consumers who require some extra help. Nothing wrong with that. It can be precise and incredibly effective. It can even be moral. I don't have to give simply because it may be a gain for me down the road, perhaps I just want to use my resources to alleviate the suffering of others. Humans can be very compassionate.

>>10892108
American culture is based in simulacra, it is transpolitical in nature, and this is what gives it its strength, its edge, and is what leads to its recurring victory over other cultures. Europeans are closet homos who resent this. Read Baudrillard, a closet homo who understood a good amount about the country.

What's this brainlet shit? Read some books. Stop talking about all this politics stuff. God, I swear everyone who uses Discord is a fucking cretin. You're not even having a "debate" you're just getting baited by some fucking stranger.
>OMG the egoist is so evil!! I wish he'd face le consequences of his actions and have like a heart attack LOL >:DD
Psychotic retard.

>>10892535
>21 century
>being a nazi
>being unironically right wing
>being ironically right wing
>having thoughts that would flag you as right wing in the media
>posting made up statistics on the internet
>not knowing how to address issues without getting called a nazi

I swear the west needs another war just to bash some sense int your small brains.

>>10892577
I did nofap for 50 days and at that time I left the internet almost completely, once I started masturbating again here I am, thinking about death again, humbles out the stress, helps the breath get in.

>>10892535
>And again this results in whites being more creative and responsible for 97% of all innovation.
You're fucking retarded in both the facts you take for truth and what you deduce from them.

>>10892535
>muh all yuropeans are the same
brainlet...
>Germanic people conform to moral norms more
Drop the useless "ic". Let's talk about German*s*. Aka morally bankrupt slave race.

>>10892478
Who says the charity must be government managed? Certainly it would be good for charities to be regulated to an extent, but why couldn't they function as private organizations?
I think its also worth mentioning that our current welfare systems are by and large a drawing of lots already. There are people who recieve aid that don't deserve it and those who don't recieve aid that need it.
I think the system would be more viable because it would (hopefully) shear off the fat, exclude those who don't need but would take and provide swift assistance to those who do.
>>10892511
Charity doesn't solve everything, but it helps act as a stop-gap for "economic inequality", in quotes there because said inequality is easier now than ever to overcome in first world countries.
The bottom line is this: if you've worked for something, you've earned it. If you haven't you don't. Taking things from people who've earned them and giving them away for free to those who haven't earned them is called stealing.
And no I'm not talking about general taxation. If you use something you should pay for its maintenance, that's why public utilities are taxed, and that makes sense.

>>10892108

>>10892589
>gay quote
>gaudy black and white picture of cheap sculpture
every time...

>>10892563
You seem a good example of how postmodern philosophy warps one's interpretation of how the world works. America was strong because of its European roots/nature and nothing else. It is not phenomena based on some abstract bullshit, it is a phenomena based on a people. Europeans are abstract idealists but the resulting power and influence doesn't stem from the idea itself but the people who conceptualize it and try to bring it about.

>>10892589
Humans are both inherently individual and necessarily social.
I don't understand why there can't be a balance. Both are incredibly important qualities and people and societies can neither survive not thrive without either.

>>10892599
dull worldview. the "abstract bullshit" you talk about, aka culture, would arise from the people. you talk as if "the people" are nothing more than gene farms with no higher thoughts... very modernist perspective.... nihilist... die nazi.

>>10892583
>>10892586
>>10892587
These are not legitimate rebuttals, and seem like posts by bitter non-whites.

>>10892599
that theory doesn't take into account the geographical position of europe compared with the shitshow all the others had to handle plus with other factors like the connection with asia that would make the european race look shine in less glory, not to mention the "european values" the european unions is promoting while having two world wars and one cold war under their belt

>>10892602
You misinterpreted that post. The abstract idealism so prevalent among whites is a product of nature and race.

>>10892605
No, if whites are as individualist as you say, then they would have no qualms with mocking your pathological collective identity-centric illusions.
*drops mic*

>>10892605
then go and gas some jews you monkey, if it's in your power ofc

>>10892352
GEt out of South America first, you yankie.

>>10892609
What? Europeans had to struggle through long winters and plan ahead more than others. The geographical environment was much harsher. But this is what in large part led to the European individualistic nature in question.

Commies, Nazis, Fascists, and all the like will all hang side by side.

>>10892614
Many do. And that's what needs to be overcome or better understood among whites so to combat the problems we now face.

>>10892142
it's mozilla's fault? really?

>>10892619
>sahara
>whole deadly australia
>sibiria
>himalaya
>actually africa as a whole

what the fuck are you talking about

>>10892599
>America was strong because of its European roots/nature and nothing else.
Sounds exactly like what a resentful European trying to take all the credit for the greatest country on earth would say, even though America fought against the Anglo-Saxons of Europe and separated itself from the death grip of the church, and has been incredibly successful (and still is) even though it has had a strong Jewish and black influence for over a century now. And the reason for that is because our cultural resolve is so unbelievably greater than Europeans that we are able to remain stable even with diversity.

>Europeans are abstract idealists but the resulting power and influence doesn't stem from the idea itself but the people who conceptualize it and try to bring it about.
Europeans are abstract idealists, but they didn't have the practicality the Americans had, which is why the Americans created the European ideal of one large nation consisting of many (the states) under a single flag before the Germans did. Yes, it was European blood that had the strength to create that in North America, but it was not just European blood that caused the Allies to win.

Next you'll say something along the lines of "but now the United States is falling into crisis, so so much for that strategy." Firstly: the greatest weakness of all things always lies in its greatest strength, so the eventual outcome is not a negation of the United States' unbelievable triumph even under conditions which combined the forces of European and non-European blood. Secondly, you're accelerating the timeline to an outcome that has not yet been realized: you don't know for sure that the United States will be collapsing anytime soon. While there's some local upheaval, I think that Europeans tend to overestimate the degree of the problem, because Europeans tend to not properly perceive the immense size of the United States and the types of people that are required to manage something of that size for the amount of time that it has been managed.

>>10892631
Many of those places were uninhabited or even came about relatively recently. Africa was also the easiest geographical location to survive in since food was available year-round. This is why Africans have high time preference, because they never had to plan ahead. You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>10892538
he also argued that in an ethnostate we shouldnt deport all the blacks because "muh based blacks would get deported and harm us" clearly showing that he only views success in terms of finances

>>10892643
Believe me you stupid mutt he's not a continental European, he's almost certainly an American talking about Europeans in a racial sense. Nice non-sequitur self-aggrandizement though.

>>10892630
Opened up Opera and 4chan was just fine

>>10892660
Superiority breeds jealousy.

>>10892605
>bitter non-whites.
You're probably a cultureless mutt, desperate for a group to cling onto.

>>10892625
> we now face
>we
There's no "we", fuck off.

>>10892672
Individuals make up the collective, it only seems like you're one of these individualists who only wish that everyone in society held this boomer-esque ideology

>>10892644
or you are trying to fit something into a frame it doesnt belong to, or better, trying to fix a frame that was broken and proved unsuccessfu last century

buy a fucking rope and hang yourself

>>10892643
Distinction without a difference, and I'm American. You admit that it is based on racial aspects and that non-white interference and diversity is only recent so there's no real point here other than what you want to believe. Unfortunately what you want to believe doesn't matter which is why you so carefully sidestepped the implications.

>>10892679
the collective is a concept made up by individuals in which they can hide themselves, there is no "I" in "we", and when I talk about "us" I dont talk about "me"

>>10892660
Post your le funny memes all you want, the fact is you are making fun of a culture that has yours by the balls, or has in fact already completely overridden yours from the world, and you're failing to realize why that is.

>>10892679
You're pretty bad at making assumptions.
I'm a traditionalist and not some individualist degenerate. I just don't give a fuck about countries or people who aren't my own, and certainly don't feel like there's any need for a "white" identity when I have my own culture, traditions and language.

>>10892671
>>10892694
Not so fast. For I am no European, my enfattened friends. Soon the Australian will have the whip hand over the American, and all shall be right with the world.

>>10892108
>collective wellbeing

>>10892683
>You admit that it is based on racial aspects and that non-white interference and diversity is only recent
It's been strong enough to note for about a century. America has been a cultural powerhouse the entire century and still is. There is definitely a point: the point being that not only was it strong enough to endure it, but it even WILLED it. The strongest culture in the world willed it, and has survived. How the hell can anyone try to argue against that? To say that things could be done better in the future, well, sure. But to say that things were not done right previously, given the circumstances? You can't say that with a straight face.

>>10892546
your argument for its viability is sophist philosophical bullshit, there's nothing to refute

>>10892489
>arguing about whether something is good or not
>caring about the 'good'
>egoist
Stay spooked

>>10892713
I more or less agree, and that strength and showcase of will was a product of European racial nature.

>>10892584
>thinking about death again, humbles out the stress, helps the breath get in.
please say more

>>10892698
Ah,a man of culture I see.
I myself am an American Ethnonat and view the concept of a "hwiet ethnostate" to just be white multiculti. However I can understand how white nats say that we must stick together to fend of the brown hordes.

>>10892704
Not to overstep myself here, but I feel a bit of kinship with Asussies as an American. You guys seems pretty cool in general. Somehow every Australian I've met (and most I've seen) has a great sense of humor and real down to earth personality. You also seem to whine about America the least among other foreign nations.
Just wanted to say that you guys seem like bros. Just putting it out there.

>>10892727
google it

>>10892733
>You also seem to whine about America the least among other foreign nations.
maybe because they're in the asshole of the world far away from the region you're shitting in

>>10892723
Now that doesn't make much sense, does it? If my argument is simply sophistry you could certainly point it out, couldn't you? Easily, right?
Go on, show me where I'm wrong. I think you can do it anon. I believe in you.

>>10892363
>continues posting random old art for no reason
wow anon, you are really cultured!

>>10892725
>strength and showcase of will was a product of European racial nature.
The strength of the culture, yes. But the culture did not become the greatest by its strength alone: its ability to deceive played a part in making it the greatest. And that is not entirely European founded. Its strength makes it immune to deceiving itself, but its ability to deceive others is what enabled it to grow and triumph.

>>10892752
I don't think that's the reason. America's reach is global. We exert as much influence over Britain as we do Australia, yet Bongs constantly love to complain in their inability to do anything.
I tend to think its a cultural difference.

>>10892728
>American Ethnonat
How is that even possible? There is no "American" ethnicity, let alone culture or traditions to follow.

> fend of the brown hordes
A Greek or a Russian would be the same as an Arab Orthodox immigrant. Being Muslim makes it worse, but I see no point in caring about the color of immigrants, because that'd imply that I want "white" immigrants more, which I don't. And I'd overwhelming prefer an Arab Orthodox immigrant to some Protestant anyday, controlling for income and education.

The only argument against egoism is Christianity.
If there's no God then everything is up for grabs

>>10892765
Do you consider Mexican to be an ethnicity? Argentinian? Chilean? Brazilian?

>>10892765
>How is that even possible?

By returning to America's roots of the English Puritan spirit

>>10892764
>I tend to think its a cultural difference.
of course you tend to think so, because if it's cultural then aussies are cool and bongs are just idiots who don't see your american charm
the truth is you're retards who like killing foreign men, women and children, and immiserating your own

>>10892733
Thank you friend. Maybe it's less than other nations but in my IRL experience Australians tend to have a plebby casual anti-Americanism. An odd mix display of amused contempt and bothered resentment, depending on who you talk to. Aussies generally have really John Oliver tier opinions on American politics and what life in America is like. I don't always have the most shining opinion of America but it really makes me cringe every time to hear it. Muh guns muh guns. Of course I'll never admit this while I'm shitting on you shart in marts online.

You might hear less whining from Aussies because we're smaller and you have le special relationship with Britain and because Britons are probably genuinely more bothered by America, whereas the Australian consciousness is just overcast by vague and drifting negative notions.

>>10892771
Not really, all mutts to me. Maybe they will be one eventually, but they are ethnically heterogeneous, practice exogamy highly, and are only united by politics and culture. I don't mean that I'm rejecting the idea of differences between them/US/etc. though.

>>10892780
Yeah, good luck with that.

>>10892762
Culture is a product of race. And the individualist, proto-libertarian origins of America were distinctly European being rooted in Enlightenment thought and the French Revolution. All of these things about America's founding and earlier culture are reflections of race, everything is.

>>10892753
I did point it out when I said "sophist philosophical bullshit", but you didn't understand
you made a claim and didn't back it up with anything except some theoretical hullaballoo
the truth is that government programs are both better and farther reaching than charity and they're there even when the rich fucks who're funneling money for tax breaks into some foundation go away and buy themselves a private plane for not fucking their kid's nanny
voluntarism is bullshit that doesn't work but it's a nice pretext for selfish cunts to say "I would totally donate if I wasn't FORCED to pay taxes god's honest truth"

>>10892794
>And the individualist, proto-libertarian origins of America were distinctly European being rooted in Enlightenment thought and the French Revolution.

Nigger what, the American Revolution predated the French. It was the Cromwellian Revolution that was the root of America's Republicanism

>>10892765
>There is no "American" ethnicity
There most certainly was for nearly all of its entirety. America was founded as an explicitly white nation. It has only been recently that jews have tried to change America to an idea and not a racial construct, but that is historically untrue.

>>10892791
Is anglo-saxon an ethnicity?

>>10892769
But there is great individualism in Christianity. Everyone is responsible for their own soul and sins. However, it balances that with charity, frugalness, and love.

>>10892785
I don't think Bongs are idiots. I think they have lots of great points. I'm just saying that I feel a certain kinship with Australians. I like them in general.

>>10892817
There is and thats why I emphasized Christianity and not just any old religion.
Christianity is the only religion which reconciled the invidual with the absolute without betraying either

>>10892804
Sorry, the Lockean revolutionary thought led to both the American ideal and French revolution.

>>10892800
See. I knew you could do it.

>>10892826
Locke's father literally fought for Cromwell

>>10892826
brainlet

>>10892794
>Culture is a product of race.
Yeah, and I'm saying that American culture for the past century (a little more, actually) has possessed a mastery over both the powers of strength and seduction, and has been a product of multiple races in that time frame.

>>10892800
Do you have a citation? But whether or not charities worked better, they are moral and taxation is not. If 6 people in a group of 10 decided it would be better to pool all their resources and distribute them evenly, but the 4 others disagreed and didn't give them their stuff, then the only way for the 6 to get their way is by force or to exclude the other 4. They either go their seperate ways or one group uses force to dominate the other.

>>10892812
yes, though the modern idea isn't identical with the original angles and saxons.

>>10892808
yeah, but things have changed. and the premise that this new Euromutt "white" ethnicity isn't a pointless construction, or even has traditions or culture worth saving is pretty debatable.

I have no issues with Americans making up their own ethnic group to compensate for being mutts, and rejecting immigrants (which is a good thing), but I refuse to group myself with it in any way. "white" is only valid in America.

>>10892858
but anglo-saxon is a mix of anglo and saxon
if anglo-saxon is an ethnicity why not spaniard-aztec

>>10892842
It hasn't though. White men dominated and determined nearly everything until very recently. Since the wasp elite was eroded and replaced by a jewish elite, mainly in the second part of the 20th century, that culture and our institutions have been enormously eroded. Because just as the strength you speak of was reflective of European racial nature, so is the present moral depravity and social collapse reflective of jewish racial nature, which is iconoclastic and hostile.

>>10892854
>Do you have a citation?
right here in my dick, you'll have to work a bit to get it out

>>10892854
>They either go their seperate ways or one group uses force to dominate the other.
Force is a mainstay of life as long as we have need for food and water.

>>10892868
that's pretty much mestizo you stupid cocksucker.

>>10892824
Just thought I'd clear that up.

>>10892858
I don't think Americans are really affected by this mutt slandering people like you engage in. Americans are largely the cream of the English/Germanic European crop. It was the most independent and ideological of those people who came over, which has selective effects that are mostly positive.

>>10892875
Just thought I'd ask
>>10892879
Isn't that a fallacy? Just because force is how things are usually done doesn't mean it's right, but maybe you could elaborate on what you mean.

>>10892868
When they become fairly homogeneous I'd say they'd be an ethnicity.

Again, white Americans have no choice but to classify along white-black-latino-etc. lines, because that's just what's there. I'm only against the grouping of Europeans into this as "white", because it's fucking meaningless. Keep your racial classifications to where they matter.

>>10892871
Complete nonsense. Various black and Jewish artists and businessmen have played a huge part in the development of the culture and have enraptured the world for the past century.

>>10892892
>Isn't that a fallacy? Just because force is how things are usually done doesn't mean it's right, but maybe you could elaborate on what you mean.
What I mean is that ther eisn't any other way to organize communal living other than forced taxation. Your brilliant idea makes the material conditions of society worse.

>>10892888
English, German, Italian, Irish, and a little of random other things. And I could care less about the quality of the genes. The very fact is, Americans lack culture, tradition, history and are already living alongside blacks, etc. who are pretty much American - not to mention modern culture replacing whatever original European culture there was. The primary thing I value is tradition, and there's really nothing of this nature in America. Yeah, maybe if you genocided all the non-whites and changed the culture of all the whites, but that's fucking retarded.

>>10892894
No, jews were largely excluded or non-factors, and their effect when otherwise was almost entirely negative and subversive, such as constantly trying to stir up agitation in the early 20th century. Jews began to take over the culture in the 60s and again this caused a gradual decline into degenerate porn culture we see now. Blacks are irrelevant.

>>10892893
i say the only true American ethnicity are the whites, due to whites founding this country.
the time to just say "lol im just a mish mash of european genes" is over, now is the time to recognize American as an ethnicity. recognize the niggers as foreign

>>10892925
nah the niggers have the same degenerate culture as you do, they are just poorer and dumber.

>>10892868
>but anglo-saxon is a mix of anglo and saxon

That name is just an historical hangover. British people are genetically proven to be predominately descendants of the original Brythonic celts

>>10892914
Americans avoid blacks like the plague. We have to continue to form an identity and reassert ourselves as we were doing successfully prior to the jewish era, and that's okay. It's necessary. What's not acceptable is supposed Europeans like yourself, I assume, who try to impede that and regurgitate jewish talking points to D&C us. You should stop that immediately and use your words and time more wisely.

>>10892925
potato niggers
nonetheless all forms of nation building identity is complete retardation
religion and langauge are much more important than race

>>10892583
>someone actually typed this out and clicked post.

>>10892940
>religion and langauge are much more important than race

*smiff*

I smell someone still trying to justify his jewish slave religion to himself...

>>10892940
>religion and langauge are much more important than race

While this is true I think race is like the shell of an egg. What's inside is what really matters but without the shell it would quickly become corrupted and degraded

>>10892915
You're honest-spirited but have no sense of subtlety or understand how the power of seduction is used in the United States. Whites let Jewish businessmen run and influence certain institutions, and they let black artists flourish and be propagated by Jewish businessmen. Both these things were part of the grand strategy of their cultural domination, an effort in subduing the masses. There's been no "erosion" except in the lower echelons of the Western world, which is to be expected; as above, so below. Not to mention, that is a universal constant; in no society has the lower echelons not appeared corrupt and deficient compared to the higher. The risk now is the potential loss of identity, which becomes more and more difficult as the system grows, but you will fail in doing so if you fail to realize how the system works, because self-identity is realized through the identification of the world.

>>10892621
>Only pure Traditionalists, Monarchists, Anarchists, and ascetics will reside in the /lit/state

>>10892946
Christianity was the only religion in history that freed slaves
Oh but of course, you want to bring back thralls because there would be no one you would be one of them

>>10892946
Christianity was the only religion in history that freed slaves
Oh but of course, you want to bring back thralls because there would be no way you would be one of them

>>10892387
He's not saying it as if it were contradictory. He is saying that they do care about others but for the wrong reasons. Their reasons being ultimately selfish and that betrays the purported intention of helping people as the end.

He is saying that their helping people is the means to an end when they make it look like it is the end.

>>10892936
>try to impede that
nah, I think it's a good goal for you guys. doesn't make you not mutts whose culture I despise, and it doesn't make me consider your "national identity" any less retarded. I also just find it hard to believe that you'll ever get this unified identity that you seek, because nobody in your country is going to buy into this idea.
> regurgitate jewish talking points
I don't think I'm doing this. As I said, "white" is an acceptable and useful term in America.

>>10892108
Some people want to be individuals but we are not built like that; we are political animals

>>10892976
>Some people want to be individuals but we are not built like that
Some people are. No one here, obviously.

>>10892976
Some more than others clearly
>I get spooked easy and that's a good thing!

>>10892981
I am an Ubermensch myself actually

>>10892946
slave morality not found here fuckwit, but maybe look towards the major issues religion posed in europe and the Americas. They were all white. But religion and language were the major fucking issue. Race came after - in the colonial Americas the issue would not be race. It would be Protestant or Catholic. Race is a relatively minor in comparison to that, especially in the early Americas. You are just regurgitating a new narritive.
>>10892949
Once again this was not the a major I said in colonial America.

>>10892951
But at levels that are irrelevant. This changed at various points with the jewish Federal Reserve Act and especially the jewish-led 1965 Immigration Act but white men dominated everything until recently, and to a large extent still do.

>There's been no "erosion" except in the lower echelons of the Western world,
There has been an erosion from top to bottom, but especially at the top, where the European aristocracy that had previously kept jews in check is now nonexistent.

>>10892962
>Christianity was the only religion in history that freed slaves
See why you don't get the big picture? Christianity itself didn't free anybody. White people did.

>>10892995
The two are intrinsically connected Europe IS Christendom

>>10892985
>Race came after
Race comes first and foremost. It is the foundation of everything and no other factor is more relevant in determining who we are and how we behave. And that both ironically and un- includes the hyper-individualistic sense in Europeans that makes us believe we can transcend such aspects of our nature.

>>10892489
invite link?

>>10892995
*white people under the influence of Christian thinking

>>10892489
inv link?

>>10893001
Fine, but it's still a jewish religion that was imposed on us and that we should as a civilization distance ourselves from in favor of something less universal and more specific to who we are.

>Moses leads his people out of slavery
>Nordic Pagans had a system of keeping their own people as slaves
>Judaism is the slave morality

What is the meaning of this. Judaism is clearly the free man's religion at its heart

>>10893017
>that was imposed on us

That's a funny way of saying voluntarily converted.
At what point did Judea conquer the Roman Empire?

>>10892108
This has nothing to do with literature, and doesn't belong in /lit/.

MODS

>>10892990
>the European aristocracy
Again, you display a lack of subtlety and a lack of understanding of the power of seduction. Calling ourselves Americans rather than Europeans was part of this seduction. You assert that the genetic European origins are all that mattered in the culture's success, and that names are just names, but that is simply wrong, and history demonstrates how. Names are incredibly powerful; names are part of what got America as far as it did.

Until you stop being so blind to the power of names and only praise the power of race, you aren't fit to be talking about global affairs and how things should move forward.

>>10893020
Jews were kicked out of Egypt for being despotic rulers, not slaves. See: Akhenaten.

>>10893026
Jews filled the court of Charlemagne, who spread Christianity to the Germanic tribes by the sword.

>>10892929
the culture is caused by capitalism my friend. its a culture made up of consumerism

>>10892940
are you trying to justify civnat?
>>10892946
Go away pagan
>>10893016
I dont wnat a massive join fest so I cant post it here, its naked apes discord

>>10893041
And who forced Charlemagne to be Christian?

>>10893040
Names? What? So Americans should refer to ourselves as Europeans? What's your point here? Stop speaking crypticly. I can't be expected to just know what you mean when you speak of "seduction" and things like this so vaguely.

>>10893051
ah, alright

>>10893058
>So Americans should refer to ourselves as Europeans?
No, the opposite. You or the other guy I replied to said "European aristocracy" and has said "European" multiple times to refer to whites in America, rather than the proper term: Americans. What this reveals to me is that you / he has little respect for the power of language, which is no doubt why the emphasis on race is there. My point is that all this talk is not American because it possesses a lack of acknowledgement of the power of seduction, which is another way to say the power of names, or the power of masks, the power to control others for your own purposes.

>>10893057
Jews promoted the spread of Christianity through Rome and beyond because it weakened the state and promoted the inverted values Nietzsche talked about. Charlemagne and other leaders did not make this association and were more or less extensions of Rome anyway.

>>10893075
I'm doing that partly our of convenience and to avoid saying "white Americans." I'm more than happy to own the term American. But America is also an extension of Europe and a European imperium that goes back millennia. This is also petty bickering whites and Europeans shouldn't be engaging in because it only benefits jews. Europeans and Americans face the same enemy and the same problems.

>>10893089
>Europeans and Americans face the same enemy
They come to very different conclusions on how to handle their issues, though.

>>10893105
They shouldn't. There is only one solution: removing jews and the non-whites they've let into the west.

>>10893113
That's the standard European solution, and why the Axis lost to the Allies. You can't control people if you get rid of them, ya dig?

>>10893045
Right, but that doesn't change the fact that American whites are just as degenerate and lacking in tradition as the blacks.

>>10893113
>There is only one solution: removing jews and the non-whites they've let into the west.
Which is impossible.

>>10893116
That's ancient history now, and only so many equivalents can and should be drawn.

>>10893123
It's been done 359 times before and is what the Spanish did when jews took over and flooded Spain with arabs like they are now. It's far from impossible.

>>10892327
on topic fags are the worst

>>10893141
>It's far from impossible.
It's completely impossible in the modern age.

>>10892496
very much indeed!
I have fallen victim to hatred of personal responsibility. I am constantly fighting a version of myself which is lazy and wants to stay inert.
Much of which is my own fault!
but however schools and environment play a role in the hatred of personal responsibility. Constant access to the internet, instant gratification to any knowledge, instant gratification to pornography teach that NOW is what is important. Responsibility is pointless if you don't benefit right NOW.
Which is false and can lead down to very poor choices. The long run is important, but the NOW is also important. As almost everything is, a balancing act. To balance the NOW and the future.

I was reading plato and socrates was going on about justice, and described an ideal society.

something like,

"people must stick to their nature and in nature some people are better than others. The people with the nature for pure knowledge shall lead (but also gotta be strong and healthy), and they mustn't lead for any personal gain. The gains must be made for the city, and the city must be temperate in what it wants."

The way to get the city in the way he spoke it is through teaching children the correct way!
and that is where we are lacking right now!
The internet is advocating for such degenerate things, and the T.V, and the media lead such a terrible example for kids!
These bad examples lead kids the wrong way.
I fear for the next generation

"Gucci gang, Gucci gang, Gucci gang, I can't buy no bitch a wedding rang, i'd rather go buy some balmains,
GUICCI GANG GUCCI GANG GUCCI GANG GUCCI GANG"

>>10892308
Your life must be really miserable

>>10893078
>Jews promoted the spread of Christianity through Rome

They actively opposed it actually. You clearly are historically illiterate. Jews despise Christianity and always have because its the one thing that deeply threatens them

randianism isn't egoism.
>>10892308
'collectivists' are a meme.
Bad strawman. Go masturbate in a corner somewhere, solipsist.
btw capitalism kills more than those 'murderous ideologies' on a regular basis while doing everything in its power to hide said fact. Go be le white civilizashun retard somewhere else, philhellenes.

>>10892327
/his/ is /pol/ without flags.

>>10893141
>only so many equivalents can and should be drawn.
I believe what I said is more true now than it was before. It would take far too much of our strength to try and undo what has been done for the past century. A rather pointless exhaustion of our strength for little payoff. The best way forward, like America has always known and exercised, which has culminated in the cultural victory we currently celebrate, is how to best make use of everything as it is, and transform it that way. Through the exercise of seduction and control, in other words.

>>10892754
WE WUZ GRIKS N SHIEEEEEEEEET

>>10892438
>beyond deluded
Sick argument, bro

>>10893169
Thanks for correcting the record Chapo Traphouse

>>10892780
America existed before *nglos and sp*cs came, whitey.

>>10893173
>/pol/ without flags

Fresh off the boat from reddit?

>>10893179
I'm not a socdem bud
>>10893186
I'm fairly fucking certain that the /his/ sticky says that it isn't '/pol/ without flags' or something like that. Of course, it is. Eat my ass you plebbit cunt.

>>10893146
No, it's not. It's easier to do now than ever before.

>>10893167
That's debatable. They opposed it for themselves, certainly, but they encouraged its spread among non-jews. Perhaps from the beginning, perhaps only after they saw the effects or realized it was a good tool to divide people. It's hard to say which.

>>10893078
>as Nietzsche said

>>10893194
>but they encouraged its spread among non-jews.

Do you have a source for that claim or are you just making this shit up as you go along for your feels > reals head canon?

>>10893200
Reality doesn't exist. Go back to plebbit please

>>10893174
Again, I don't exactly know what you mean by "seduction and control." Blacks aside, the nonwhites currently inside the US arrived in recent decades. They can be sent back with ease. There is no reason to conced and just say "welp they're here now so I guess they'll be here forever."

>>10893206
Not an argument

>>10893211
GO BACK TO PLEBBIT

>>10893212
So this.. this is the power of reading Nietzsche...

>>10893200
Jesus and his apostles were all jews, they were the ones spreading it. It is the source.

>>10893220
No they were Christians actually

>>10893209
>I don't exactly know what you mean by "seduction and control."
What do you think consumer culture is? It's pacification (control) of the masses, using marketing (seduction).

>They can be sent back with ease.
But why not take advantage of them instead? They make up a broad portion of consumers now.

>>10893222
*sigh*

>>10893226
Not an argument

>>10893223
Because that's what jews are doing to further their control. Whites aren't jews and shouldn't act like them by furthering the creation of and exploiting some identity-deficient caramel underclass, but creating a healthy environment for our own people free from the jews who are doing such things.

>>10893228
Jews are a race. Whatever they're hocking at any particular time does not override that.

>>10893238
>Because that's what jews are doing to further their control. Whites aren't jews and shouldn't act like them by furthering the creation of and exploiting some identity-deficient caramel underclass
Boy, are you naive.

>>10893239
So even when Jews are preaching directly against Judaism, proposing a universal religion that dissolves their claim to ethnic importance and integrity its actually all a Jewish plot
Interdasting

>>10893246
No, I'm not, you are working with incomplete information. We are in the jewish era working toward a jewish globalist agenda. No shit white elites have been influenced and incentivized to promote those interests and even believe they are their own in some post-Christian utopian sense, but that doesn't change whose agenda it really is.

>>10893255
Perhaps you should enroll in a biology course.

>>10893259
>jewish globalist agenda
It's a white agenda, too. You're too afraid to admit it, but politics at base is all about: how can we maintain power over the masses? Exploitation is inherent to all governments, the better a government is at exploiting its people as well as other governments, the more successful it will be. Like I said much earlier on in this conversation, which you seemed to gloss over, whites let black artists flourish and be propagated by Jewish businessmen as part of the grand strategy of their (whites') cultural domination, an effort in subduing the masses. Seduction is exclusively a Jewish game? Very wrong, very naive, and with that idea, you will for sure hand power over to others.

>>10893274
It is a jewish agenda through and through. I have no qualms holding whites accountable and am not trying to absolve them here - in fact I blame white elites more than anyone since jews are only doing as they do - but you have to understand this in terms of group interests. The jewish globalism destroying white nations is in jewish interests and is a jewish agenda because jews are an anti-national, international people; plenty of whites have bought into this and gain from it and believe it and promote it, but fundamentally it is not their own. They do not have the long-term perspective required to realize the effects of these policies on their descendants, simply don't care, or are too stupid to comprehend what they're doing. And this is the biggest problem of all. But they are doing the bidding of jews. Period.

>>10893301
>It is a jewish agenda through and through.
Dead wrong. You're just too afraid to accept the reality.

Also, you make a grave error when you talk about elites as if they ever have an interest in the "group". Not even Jewish elites do. What they might say doesn't matter. All elites are interested only in themselves; Jews will exploit one another when necessary, or will ex-communicate each other, they are very harsh in that way. But ultimately, high up the hierarchical chain (all hierarchical chains), there are only individuals who are competing one another and exploiting everyone else. You have zero conception of what highly competitive individuals, who always make up the elites, are like if you think otherwise. And a global economy for global cultural domination is not exclusively a Jewish idea. They are not the only ones who possess the will to power in its full unbridled form. In fact, they are not even at the top of that chain.

>>10892108
>Once I heard one unironically say "moralfag" I knew I needed help.
lel I hope it was here in 4chan and not IRL.

>>10893341
Oh and your answer OP is that both are shit, all ideologies are shit, it is all pointless due the fact that all of them apply greed in 2 different ways.
>inb4 muh_centrist_strawman_from_shitty_paint_artist.png

>>10893341
Discord

>>10893353
Ah
No wonder.

>>10892108
>I need help confirming my preexisting opinion

>>10893327
>Not even Jewish elites do.
You're lying or stupid, and it's not up to me to discern which. You need to get a better grasp of the jewish problem. You are lacking in this department and thus failing to make connections I can only guide you through so much.

>>10893371
yes

>>10892308
>They claim to "care about others" but only because it makes them feel better about themselves.

So as an Individualist, you should support that, dumbass lol ?

>>10892492
Hegel said it

>>10893413
>What they might say doesn't matter.
Time to wise up and realize what life is about: competition between individuals who are exploiting everyone below them.

>>10893676
Jews don't do anything as individuals. Everything is viewed through the lens of: "is this good for the jews?"

>>10892361
>other than the Holocaust, Fascism has a very low track record
>>10892308
yeah i'm sure being a Harvard legacy from birth with parents who make 2 million a year is all due to mental superiority and ambition right

>>10893686
What's your point? They are indoctrinated by a higher up all the same, like anyone harping on identity politics.

>>10893726
There is no culture that more strongly enforces in-group identity and cohesion than jewish culture. Everything is about furthering the interests of the group, and they're all 5th cousins of one another anyway. Time to learn some HBD.

>>10892546
No it doesn't. It prevents reforms to change and only sedate the poor. Read Wilde

>>10892308
>They are responsible for the most murderous ideologies in human history: communism, nazism, fascism,...
That's just because collectivism is more powerful in getting things done

>>10893747
you must be a really sad person

>>10893795
Is there a problem with that statement?

>>10892535
Germany is a social democracy and as a result of that the quality of life is much higher than in the US, brainlet.

>>10892523
sounds like current day china

>>10892108
They start with different premises, they unsurprisingly reach different conclusions. You can argue that individualism is essentially self-defeating (look at America, we are social animals, etc), or hit them on some tertiary belief of theirs, but if they're smart they'll have some sort of mental gymnastics to cover that.

>>10893697
>yeah i'm sure being a Harvard legacy from birth with parents who make 2 million a year is all due to mental superiority and ambition right

Actually yes? How did the parents get there without ambition? Isn't it their right to have their children enjoy their wealth?
You're just proving my point

>>10893828
Naturally. Such a social model is much more viable when you don't have a historic underclass of Africans.

>>10893828
>the quality of life is much higher than in the US
Which wealth classes are you comparing when you say this?

>>10893857
That you fucked with for 5 generations.

>>10892308
>disregard every famine, mass suicide waves, wars promoted by capitalism
>communism was a mistake!!!!

>>10893857
>da black man be keeping us down
lol
>>10893866
all of them

>>10893169
Explain with unambiguous details, and using clear arguments, how free markets kill more people on daily basis than stalin and mao ever did, and then explain how capitalists hide this fact from the public.

>>10893880
To whom we've allocated trillions of dollars to lift up with no success. Blacks fail wherever they are, everyone knows this.

>>10893887
Sure thing bud.

>>10892308
>>10892108
The correct answer is: you’re both shortsighted. When analyzing economic relations and phenomena, and even social philosophy in general, it helps to analyze it from three perspectives

The phenomenon of free competition
The phenomenon of monopolies
The phenomenon of collectivization

The first two occur in a capitalist state, the second occur in a socialist one.

These sorts of things happen all the time down to this very day. It’s important to understand how these sorts of things impact individuals and why. Simply writing off collectivization is un-scholarly. The correct answer is that autocratic rulers using the communist regime as a scapegoat to their agenda killed millions. Capitalism is not ideal, but not terrible, especially when managed well. And collectivization of the productive resources has been shown to reduce the duopolistic prices that occur on a hyperbolic indifference curve down to one, efficient price.

>>10893857
That's what people fail to realize when we talk about the Nordic model. It's falsely universal. Yes, we're sharing among an ENTIRE NATION... that has the total population of a single large US metroplex... and everyone is a white guy named Sven.

It's easy to share when everyone looks like you, talks like you, thinks like you, eats like you.

>>10893882
>all of them
In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about.

>>10893906
thats why the ruling class in those countries is so obsessed with importing refugees, to break the welfare state, once people who don't look like u are gettin free gibs people start voting against the safety net, so in order to discredit nordic welfare state style capitalism they need to bring in a big enough minority to undermine it

>>10893644
The point he is making is both individualists and collectivists act the same way, but individualists are honest about their intentions while collectivists are being hypocritical

>>10893828
>>10893882
The quality of life is not "much higher" in Germany than the U.S. When you compare national averages, you're comparing apples and oranges. Compare americans of German descent with native germans living in germany and you'll find that german-americans make much more money than germans back home. Pic related is for Scandinavia, but you get the point.

Start with the Greeks. Aristotle's Politics & Ethics. Then move straight to Schmitt.

People who argue that altruism is inauthentic because it brings pleasure to the altruist are idiotic neoplatonists who prefer a futile chase after inaccessible abstract concepts such as pure truth and pure goodwill rather than looking at things from a pragmatic lens.

Pragmatically, reciprocal altruism is good for the individual. The individual who has an excess of goods and/or property which is no longer bringing him greater happiness (given that it is well established statistically that once you go beyond financial security you no longer have happiness gains) derives pleasure from improving the situation of another man, the other man deriving even greater pleasure from said improvement in situation. Both individuals arrive at some benefit.

Pragmatically, reciprocal altruism is good for society. There is nothing wrong with selfishness per se insofar as reciprocal altruism is a type of selfishness, but nonaltruistic selfishness is stupid and unsustainable. For example, nonaltruistic selfishness is exactly the reason that the US has so much difficulty with the prospect of protecting the environment. It is in the interest of the species overall for the environment to be protected, but companies etc. lobby for their own monetary benefit at the cost of humanity at large. Reciprocal altruism meaningfully acknowledges such threats as environmental collapse. From the outlook of reciprocal altruism, it is in everybody's interest not to destroy the planet we live on; just because it is in other people's interest does not mean it is not also in one's own interest.

>>10893923
GDP is uselless alone as a metric, brainlet

>>10893917
Not quite but there's too many problems there to unpack. If anything socialist policies were implemented to weaken and coddle the populace so they wouldn't fight back when a million man invader wave was imported.

>>10893923
Trust an American to think that money equates to quality of life

>>10893940
>>10893955
No you dumb fucks, gpp is a perfect indicator of wealth. Even if we were to argue that it isn't 100% accurate, a $25.000 gap in gpp between two groups of the same ethnicity is just too large to ignore.
Compare apples with apples, and you'll find that americans of germanic and nordic ancestries beat nordics in their home countries in everything, from employment rates to education and income levels.

>>10893990
this is a good point, if u take out nignogs and mexicans, then america actually outperforms those commie euro countries on most metrics

>>10893990
>No you dumb fucks, gpp is a perfect indicator of wealth.
No it's not you dumbfuck. Learn some economics.
>>10894006
That's not how an economy works you imbecile you can't just take away elements you don't like.

>>10894011
>you can't just take away elements you don't like.
ICE can

>>10894011
Fine. Tell me how the value of all services and products produced in a country, divided by the number of citizens, is not an indicator of wealth. I'm waiting.

>>10893990
alright, let's see the data

>>10894028
well, for one, it doesn't tell you the real distribution of wealth.
for another, gdp does not measure income, but total product. only a portion of a countries gdp is actually personal income, or purchasing power. you can have an incredibly productive economy with very low average purchasing power, which is related to the the first point.

>>10892108
The sooner you realize how false of a dichotomy individualism/collectivism is, the better you'll get at spotting politically illiterate retards and avoid unproductive "debates"

>>10894060
yeah, look at you
just rising above it all

>>10894028
>>10894059
GDP is an indicator of growth, not of wealth

>>10894028
Wealth =! GDP simply because of the obvious fact that it doesn't take into account the average costs of living and the inflation rates between countries you illiterate fuck. Average wealth isn't even a useful indicator of quality of life because it doesn't take into account a bunch of measurable sociological factors like social coesion.

>>10894073
no, it's not an indicator of growth. the growth rate is.

>>10894074
u ever seen that "humburger index" where they calculate the cost of a bigmac relative to the average income or whatever, guess what, rich countries were still rich, hongkong was the highest ranked

>>10894077
How is GDP not an indicator of growth if it just measures the production of goods and services for one year? How can you possibly derive what the TOTAL capital is in that country, just from the GDP.

No, anyone who truly grasps what wealth is will tell you GDP is more of an indicator of overall growth rather than one of wealth.

>>10894034
Alright, here goes:
Here's a comparison of poverty rates. Absolute poverty rates are 6.7% in Denmark and 9.3% in sweden.

>>10894034
>>10894100
High school graduation rates

>>10894070
No, I simply understand that we are born into a pre-existing social structure which molds our motifs and molds us as agents, that makes the agent and the structure mutually dependent as the individuals reproduce the structure, and the structure affects individuals, which means individuals make their choices in a pre-existing social context.

Tl;dr : being an atomised consumerist in capitalism isn't "individualism", and living in a classless stateless moneyless society isn't "collectivism" either, the latter might have more individualist freedom to than the former

>>10894034
>>10894109
Unemployment rates

>>10894098
i see what your point is, but i still wouldn't call this 'growth'
more like 'productivity'
i'm not the one claiming it measures wealth btw

>>10894100
>>10894109
>>10894119
>conversation is about germany
>posts the nordic countries
ok
where are these from btw?

>>10894110
Fine I concede that GDP can be more accurately described as measuring productivity than growth, but for reasons you probably don’t even understand.

Either way we both agree that it is NOT an indicator of wealth. Good little discussion

>>10894141
Is meant for
>>10894124


Sry, phoneposting

>>10894110
maybe you should read the thread rather than making assumptions about the opinions of those you are deriding

>>10894141
and where do u suppose wealth comes from if not productivity? not that i'd expect a worthless neet to understand

>>10894134
It's the same thing in both germany and Scandinavia. Germany is in fact more capitalistic.

>>10894141
hm yes okay
what don't i understand?
what special feature of this concept, 'productivity,' is eluding me?
share your insight please

>>10894149
Wealth doesn’t come from productivity. If a country is productive, it doesn’t necessarily mean any excess exists. Excess is what contributes to wealth.

Rather high rents or wages could mean that a country with tremendous productivity ends up losing wealth at the end of the year.

>>10894160
wow you're fucking dumb, are you a marxist by chance? do you think the 10 million dollar cost of a condo in manhattan means nyc is poor or rich? do u think the average rent in san francisco of 4000 a month means san francisco is wealthy or poor?

>>10894151
>It's the same thing in both germany and Scandinavia. Germany is in fact more capitalistic.
>bcuz i said so
"More capitalistic" doesn't mean anything. Germany has a social democratic structure with government interventions (like fiscal compact). Post your data or stfu.

>>10894160
omg no wealth is not the same thing as savings
>https://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wealth.asp
Wealth measures the value of all the assets of worth owned by a person, community, company or country. Wealth is determined by taking the total market value of all physical and intangible assets owned, then subtracting all debts. Essentially, wealth is the accumulation of resources. Specific people, organizations and nations are said to be wealthy when they are able to accumulate many valuable resources or goods.

>>10894074
Lmao. Social cohesion leads to higher gdp, hence why you get high GDPs in countries with high levels of trust. You can't tell the degree of social cohesion in a country based on its GDP, true enough, but you can be sure that high GDPs and high degrees of social cohesion go hand in hand. All third world countries, almost without exception, have low degrees of trust.
Also GDP does actually take into account costs of living and inflation rates, hence why we have a thing called GDP (PPP), Grosss Domestic Product Per Purchasing Power.

>>10894179
ppp stands for purchasing power parity not per purschasing power

>>10894173
That’s not what is implicitly meant by ‘rent’. Rent could be based on land, and with the economic progression of society this can in fact produce hardships for buildings in cities or other farmers not utilizing the capital taking the place of land in the production of a good.

On the other hand, rent is also very commonly (more so than it used to be) expressed as a facet of capital. Capital machinery is very typically leased by large companies to even small farmer for production, so any increase in that amount of rent produces some hardships for them as well.

Productivity does not mean an increase in wealth, sorry.

>>10894179
>hence why we have a thing called GDP (PPP)
Which the other guy hasn't posted. Did you just skim the GDP wikipedia page for the first time you turboretard.
And I said measureble sociological factors LIKE social cohesion, social cohesion is far from being the only one.

>>10894178
I never said it was. I mentioned capital, not savings.

You are a brainlet.

>>10894185
if a farmer has to pay a higher interest rate on the loan for his new tractor it has no impact on the output of his farm, holy shit where are you getting these dumb ideas about economics?

>>10894193
Yes it does, depending on the tractor’s coefficient of production.

>>10894205
>>10894193
To be more specific, to maximize profit, the tractor’s coefficient of production for a given economic good is determined by the interest rate on a macro scale.

So the overall productivity is actually affected by exorbitant interest rates.

>>10894205

it makes no difference in the gpd if the output of the farm goes to the farmer or a bank

>>10894211
>maximize profit

wow man put down the econ 101 textbook for a second and think...we're talking about gdp not profit holy shit

>>10894215
In the case we are supposing, on a macro level, it does make a difference because potentially less goods could be produced overall.

I love when fools talk economics

>>10894192
you mentioned 'excess', not 'capital', and in context this meant 'savings' from 'profit'
you actually, genuinely have no idea what you're talking about

>>10894234
This.

>>10894175
I don't have the data on germany kiddo, but i was originally replying to the guy who said that germany has higher standards of living than america because of the social democratic government there. Government structure in both Scandinavia and germany is very similar, with Germany being just a little bit more business friendly. My argument was that if you're going to sing the praise of social democratic rule, then you better have the data to back up your claims.
Denmark actually has a substantially higher GPP than Germany, and very similar GPP (PPP), so if denmark wasn't overall better than Germany, you can at least expect both countries to have similar standards of living.

>>10894222
Right and interest affects net profit. Obviously unless we’re in the process of experiencing a great inequality of offer over demand, the price can not be tremendously higher than the costs of production. Rent for the capital good, in this case a tractor, realizes itself as a cost of production in as large as the coefficient of production is. In order to sufficiently make a profit, it is necessary that output at least be somewhat higher than the costs of production. And then this net income is required to be higher than the upkeep costs of the capital.

There are just so many things that could make productivity not a generator of wealth that it isn’t even funny. These people are doing what they are supposed to be doing, but if the economy isn’t, because of a lack of economic or technical progress, they could decrease in wealth.

>>10894238
Just stop trying. You have resorted to ad hominem attacks in an attempt to make yourself feel like you know what you’re talking about.

Of course excess is directly related to capital reinvestment. I’ve had it with you, if you want further education, read the post above this one.

>>10894259
piddling little toddler trying to hide his mess from mama
>excess is directly related to capital reinvestment
savings=investments in macro
you ignorant bitch

>>10894059
>well, for one, it doesn't tell you the real distribution of wealth.
True enough. Still, equality in income distribution is not necessarily a good thing. If a small portion of society makes or holds most of the wealth, that doesn't mean the rest of society isn't doing well.
>for another, gdp does not measure income, but total product. only a portion of a countries gdp is actually personal income, or purchasing power. you can have an incredibly productive economy with very low average purchasing power, which is related to the the first point.
I kinda see your point. You can argue that china is an incredibly productive economy with very low purchasing power. True enough. But if you look at GDP Per Capita (GPP) for each region or each distinct ethnic group, you can see that GPP reflects accurately the material wealth of individuals in that group or area.
Wealth is measured by the abundance of goods and services. A high GDP is indicative of a high quantity of goods and services, because it's nothing but the price of these goods and services. A high GDP means there are more goods available. There's just no way to think of that as a bad thing, as these goods are meant to be bought by consumers, and consumers can't buy things without having money to buy them, and producers don't produce things unless they estimate that people have the financial ability to buy them.

You can take measures of GDP with a pinch of salt, but don't treat them as irrelevant.

>>10894295
You aren’t making capital investment without a gross income greater than the costs of production for every good sold times the quantity minus the upkeep.

Pretty simple. Otherwise, no one adds to their wealth, and by extension, the National wealth

>>10894315
please
please please please
shut the fuck up
please
you aren't saying anything

>>10894323
I’m educating you. :)

Okay listen here you filthy collectivist scum:
Your Ideology appeals to weaklings and insecure people(teenagers) like you.
That kid who tagged along with chad to feel cool about himself? That was collectivism. He himself was weak and needed stronger men to support him.
Now, lets say, Chad is an avid heroin user.
What happens?
That kid becomes an addict too.
If we look at the collectivist ideologies, this pattern can be observed too. Large groups of weak men(or men who think they are) gather around a few strong men who set an example, which to this point exclusively has been: Gas the jews, kill the kulaks, starve the peasants, suicide into enemy ships, let in even more "weak men".

Under Individualism, these weak men don't grow up heeding to authority. They learn to be themselves, no matter if society accepts it or not.

>>10894332
Individualism and collectivism are memes, the only thing that matters is setting up a planned socialist economy
It's our only chance to survive as a civilization

>>10894175
Actually forget about comparing german americans and germans living in germany. America, with all its niggers and mexicans, still beats the living fuck out of germany:
https://mises.org/wire/when-it-comes-household-income-sweden-and-germany-rank-kentucky

Pic related is a comparison of global median incomes that takes into account taxes, social benefits, purchasing power parity, and even income inequality.

>>10894175
And in case you were feeling like getting more btfo
>In Germany,the average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita is USD33 652a year
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/germany/

>>10894402
Oh okay so you’re the socialist guy. Yeah I like economics that focuses on collectivization for a little bit too, because it’s a facet of everyday economic life.

But I’m not so short-sighted that I can’t focus on the other free-market phenomenon that goes on in capitalism as well. Neither should you.