/lit/ - Literature

So this is water...

>>10881817
he changed a lot from the 90s

>>10881817
What a load of bollocks.

>>10882154
It's true, faggot.

just find meaning my dude

>>10882154
tard

>>10881817
define "worship"

I kind of totally entirely agree to be perfectly utterly honest with myself

>>10881817

WORSHIP
>the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

I DONT THINK ANYONE PERSONIFIES SHOPPING AS A DEITY, DAVID.

I DONT THINK ANYONE WORSHIPS THEIR OWN BODY AS A DEITY, DAVID.

>>10882256
There's a certain meme philosopher who wants a word with you.

>>10882251
A very fundamental trust in some ontological value of desire. Where exactly we placate this point of utter absurdity in facing every day reality

>>10882258
Why do people like you even bother reading?

>>10881817
He's 100% right.

>>10882268
that is not what worship means

>>10882277
Yes it is actually

>>10882264
whisper his sweet name in my ear, anon....

>>10881817
DFW was a blind man, he couldn't see how Christ, Buddha, ethics, devour people's souls. Hedonistic materialists are no less contemptible or more so, than any religious devotee.

>>10882288
Hedonistic materialist detected.

>>10882288
If only there were a book where he spent a long time untangling that problem...

>>10882278
go to any dictionary and show me a similar definition

>>10882287

>>10882296
According to my own dictionary it says exactly that

>>10882316
show me and tell me what dictionary

>>10882366
I just told you, my dictionary, the dictionary I wrote by me

>>10882377
>my dictionary desu
serious answers only please

>>10882407
How is that not a serious answer?

>>10882407
>>10882415
you two are cute

I remember paraphrasing this bit from This Is Water in a conversation with my religious mom in high school and her reaction was "Who is TELLING you these things?" missing the point entirely.

>>10882945
Based mum just didn't want you falling to the DFW cult of sophistry

>>10882258
How the fuck do you function with that level of reading comprehension?

>>10881817
Best of Friends, really. It is the funniest part of any Peterson backlash. I imagine David would have made a good father though too.

>>10881817
thanks now i know ill never read anything by him

>>10881817
>everything is worship
Why are so many people intent on vagueifying words to negate everything? This quote is intellectual poison. It says absolutely nothing.

>>10883015
How exactly are you going to argue that this doesn't make his initial statement "n the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping." blatantly incorrect? No, having some kind of structure is not worshiping a deity, no matter how much you and your fellow pseuds want to be given a medal for thinking otherwise.

>>10883089
It might as well be a deity, and what else can we call the way people live but idolatry?

>>10883108
>It might as well be a deity
No it might as well not be you fucking pseud, just because you think people give undue respect to something does not mean they worship it. Even if that thing was a deity, simply following the values of a God are not the same thing as actually deliberately performing the task of worship. You stupid fuckers just want everything to be a buzzword.

>>10882269
>>10883015

You complete fools. DFW seems to be literally using the word worship in an incorrect manner to fit his point.

Go read a dictionary before posting again.

>>10883152
If it occupies all of their time and thought how else should we succinctly call it? If it relies on assumptions and axioms that one doesn't necessarily gave any "logical" reason to make? Perhaps it isn't quite literally "deity" as you say, but they approach it in much the same way and thus should not be hypocritical in their attacks on others for engaging in the very natural and necessary practice of worship. I would say there are very few people who do not worship.

>>10883185
How exactly is it not logical? How can you say it occupies all their time? What makes you think the definition of a deity is something that occupies all your time? How do they approach it in the same way as a deity? You are just making claims without even referring to what exactly you think people do that amounts to "worshipping" "deities". You are really, REALLY reaching just for a chance to be smug

>>10881817
This was said a very long time ago

>>10883235
No I'm just shitposting. But what else is deity but that which one centers one's life around and that which gives everything meaning? And these values are always going to be based off of assumptions (which are not usually based in pure, cold, empirical "reality") if you trace back far enough. Unless you're just some kind of Stirnerite that cares only for his own advantage and decries the rest as spooks.

Was he even sincere?

if you take this non literally, it's pretty clever. it's a solid statement on how important it is to live with good intentions that have foresight, good in respect to how they help you and the people around you long term navigate life.

i've had people try to throw this at me as if it was some secret truth that was hidden to me, "everyone worships something", like that is a requirement to living. like the fucking ants worship something. like alligators worship something. like apes worship something. there is no inherent worship that goes on in living just because we are humans. the default is none whatsoever, we foillow our urges day to day

>>10883172
>the DICKtionary is the authority on language
HAHA

>>10883269

jesus christ the woke counter-nihilist faux-religious nietzsche jordan petersonites have officially become as annoying as the woke radfem coates idpol marxists

>>10881817
Good quote. I haven't actually read anything of his, is Infinite Jest best choice? I see it mentioned a lot here.

>>10882258
>I DONT THINK ANYONE PERSONIFIES SHOPPING AS A DEITY, DAVID.
>I DONT THINK ANYONE WORSHIPS THEIR OWN BODY AS A DEITY, DAVID.

Someone unironically wrote these things in 2018

there's a lot of irony worship in this thread

>>10881817
Was this written for elementary school children?

>>10884638
Yes, and can you believe it, most still don't get it

>>10881817
He's 100% right.

>>10883080
+1

>>10882407

I guess you worship the dictionary
I guess a lot of people do....

>>10883994
Infinite Jest is a big book to tackle, you might want to start with some of his non-fiction articles to see if you like his style of writing. I recommend his Cruise liner essay, it contains his trademark verbosity and neurotic wit:

https://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/HarpersMagazine-1996-01-0007859.pdf

>>10882251
spending disproportionate amount of time on something not vital to survival

>>10881817
i thought this guy was supposed to be a meme. why is he saying intelligent and reasonable things?

>>10885709
>that quote
>intelligent and reasonable
>not a meme
HAHA

>>10885752
>HAHA

>>10885752
>metaphysical archetypes not a meme to begin with

>>10882258
>I DONT THINK ANYONE WORSHIPS THEIR OWN BODY AS A DEITY, DAVID.

pshhhh...nothing personal spooky

>>10885709
>what if I told you... we actually all worship something?????
platitudes 101

>>10885765
I'm just being sincere.

>>10885709
/pol/ did this with pizzagate this is a massive fucking self-own

>>10882288
Put down the needle. Take off the condom. Stop with the Science. Come to know god and please stop hating yourself.

>>10885777
but thats not what the quote is about brainlet. can you read?

>On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.

>>10885777
For something to be a platitude it would have to be widely known or self-evident. No one that I've witnessed has lived their lives by DFW's notions yet you claim these notions are platitudes?

>>10885788
same boring trite shit, muh collective unconscious
only a cultureless rootless nation like America could consider this stuff deep or interesting

>>10885789
that's because you're a brainlet, live with brianlets, breath brainletness

>>10885794
> A college professor is a brainlet

>>10885800
In murica this is quite often the case

>>10885800
>>10885804
Yes

>>10885785
>Stop with the Science.
No thanks, Satan. I prefer to stay in the light.

>>10885808
I'm not telling you to stop using science. I'm telling you to stop worshiping it. Stop acting as if it could possibly save you. It might make you live longer and it might make you healthier but it will never do anything for your very being.

>>10885817
>it will never do anything for your very being
Not true, the fruits of science have given many of us an incredible wealth of pleasure.

>>10885792
i didnt say it was deep or interesting, just intelligent and reasonable. its just a true statement is all. mostly i think it would be useful for all the edgy atheists to understand that they are replacing one religion with another (science) and become very unscientific in the process

this type of stuff is effecting the policies of entire countries and regions, how is it not important?

>>10885834
>the science is in dont question it
>as an educated intelligent person i know better than to question science
>i dont need to look at the research im not a scientist
>i dont need to look at your data to know its wrong because its racist
>listen and believe

>>10885829
Science is profitable masturbation. Nothing worth worshiping.

>worship

>>10881823
**And for but so this is water**

>>10886678
etc., etc., and but so

>>10886756
[1] This is not to say that as others have previously and frequently noted that (in the place of common discourse*) that these events while containing certain simultaneous elements, were in the simplest and common sense sequentially experienced, if not chronologically intended.

*Discourse in this case being any written or spoken formal interchange of language between two or more (or one and him/herself) people over a given subject, as indicated by the implied semiotic meaning of each word, as granted by each participant by their mutual, if fleeting, participation. ^1

>>10885800
yes faggot, most professors are massive retards
>>10885785
>put down the needle
I smoke weed faggot
>take off the condom
I only have sex in relationships and I don't use condoms
>stop with the science
i'm not an empiricist or verificationist
>come to God
there is not God like you describe at all, its a phantasm, a parasitic thought form that eats people's souls at death
>stop hating yourself
I love myself more than most people could possibly understand

>>10886790
iv noticed at lot of turbo reddit posts like this one around here lately. did something happen that im not aware of?

>>10882154
Not an argument!

>>10886790
>I smoke weed
>God is parasitic
ayy

>>10887052
Not that anon but I'm pretty sure he meant the thought of God is parasitic, not God Himself.

Fuck off you generation z faggots

David belonged to and WAS the 90s

You wouldnt understand

>>10881817
What a dumbass. He's trying to act like "worship" is synonymous with "pursue" or "acknowledge". At that point it's just blatant misuse of the word. Do people really listen to this guy? Bowing down to a magical being constructed from nothing within a book full of plagiarism and commands to abuse or kill various people isn't quite the same as wanting money so you can live and following an ideology because YOU HAVE A BRAIN.

>>10887122
dude i didn't predict that reply at all WOAH

>>10887152
Do you bro HAHA

>>10887142
I think you're miscofiguring the basis of faith. Faith is a continual pursual of a distant abstract goal that one believes to be an artifact, that is worshipping. His definition holds

>>10887164
>God Himself
mind is blown playa keep up the fight

>>10882251
His quick definition is an invisible set of ethical principles. For Americans this could be the Declaration of Independence. For Egyptians it was their pharaoh. At some point you pick a value, code, or figure that determines your ethics. Worship is a funny word to put this under but it is a good way of putting it. We don’t pray to our idols but they still control our actions as a dogma might.

>>10887176
I'm sorry I still don't see your point. Hurry up and explain I'm on a tight schedule!

>>10883295
Ants worship their queen, alligators their food apes their alphas/silverbacks. You misunderstand what is meant by worship.

>>10887181
I meant Inviolable of course

>>10887188
I'm sorry are you ready to define 'God himself' in your hurry?

>>10881817
being an atheist and "worshiping" something aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. in its simplest form atheism is merely not believing in any god(s). they can even worship other super natural things, just so long as they don't consider them the creator(s) of the universe, and still be an atheist. I get what David is trying to say, but at best it's still sophistry.

>>10887239
>atheist are pagans

>>10887169
Okay, so the issue is that he said nothing about faith in these sorts of things. He talks about worship, and he talks about it incorrectly. His use is to assume that people venerate their belongings, bowing down to them or otherwise assuming that they are of great value and are to be treated with adoration.
Also, nice try there buddy; pursual is not a real word.

>>10887241
depends on what their worship entails

>>10887211
Oh that's what you meant. The original anon probably meant God as capital-N Nature or something that isn't a deity dependent on the minds of humans, which is the supposed parasitic thought. God "Himself" would be the thing independent of our subjectivity, but obviously that is an assumption considering we can't experience things outside of our own subjectivity HAHA

>>10887285
pantheist leave

>>10887362
*blocks your path*

>>10887370

>>10887362
Remember I am speaking for him (that original anon) that is not me but him that is also not you (as I assume) so at the end of the day, I don't know anything. I personally don't see much particularly wrong with pantheism, particularly.

>>10887394
The spirit stands in eternal judgment before God, not as God. This is 101 of high dose shrooms, less you become a bootlicking hippie

>>10887394
the problem with the pantheist is they're not *really* saying anything. the only real difference between them and an atheist is what they call the universe. it's excess semantics that doesn't really have any merit

God, DFW was a fucking loser. Pathologizing basic human interaction != penetrating insight.

Some people deserve to die for their retardation and some people die for their retardation. At least DFW had the conviction to do the latter.

>>10887408
I don't quite understand why both those things cannot be true at the same moment. A spirit can judge itself, as if it were distinct, from within itself as that is the nature of a spirit. What we know that is weird but true is that the spirit is hard to put your finger exactly on but the inverse of that notion is also true. It's hard for the spirit to put It's spiritual finger on the thing that is the thing trying to put it's finger on it. As far as I know I don't know anything, and a particularly particular spirit may or may not be judged by the thing that is not me but is also me but is also you but is also Him. Also, I've done many hallucinogens in my day and a common theme I've found is how open the mind is to suggestion. One can convince themselves of just about anything but the sad but true truth to the matter is that this portal we see through is not quite capital-A A+ rated according to environmental guidelines if you catch my drift. At the end of the long year you will find that many things that seem distinct actually share a lot of things in common and are not as distinct as you originally thought. Eventually words will bend and blend in strange ways and meaning will obscure until you are looking as a thing which is different but the same as the thing you looked at before this thing. Also, also I don't know if I even believe in a spirit as the thing I think I assume to see as spirit is the thing that I assume to think I see when I think of the totality of reality (which is just one particularly particular reality extrapolated to the whole singularly particular reality), as when I look close to the thing (but not directly at it) I find that they are not as distinct as I or my spirit had previously thought and thought to have thought.

>>10881817
>Assuming a few simple basic axioms is the same as believing in the entire bible and Catholic catechism.

>>10887518
The thing I see about hallucinogenic experiences, particularly shrooms, is that people inevitably encounter this sort of experience of an interconnectedness and consider that God suddenly, and if YOU were to fight this, then that is the initial response that would trigger a 'bad trip'. This is the thinking of generations of hippies with their sense of 'ego death' and this connectedness being God. That's the problem with pantheism, it denies that in the face of God you are eternally wrong because you are man. In the face of what would be called 'the absurd', that is, infinite possibility between the temporal and the eternal, man can only acknowledge this encounter on his own outside of influence, and inevitably recognize that when the confrontation rears its face again, he will again at once appear guilty.

>>10887409
But none of that is exactly a problem unless you or I is an atheist afraid of the word God or a theist afraid of being associated with atheists. It is semantics yes but that is not the fault of the ideas it-them selves for the loss of merit for, for this loss of merit is balanced by a gain of merit by association, like metaphorical luggage that you protect when you host an idea in your home until you push that idea out into the cold but forget to throw out the luggage that came with it. Eventually you open your closet door and that luggage all falls on your head and you are left with a nasty bruise that you know you could have avoided. If you still don't catch my drift then I say don't bother arguing semantics or group-idea identity and move onto the ideas it-them selves or it-them as you think you see it-them and see nothing as neither distinct nor the same as not-nothing. Ideas don't exist in a vacuum and when you begin to understand one you begin to understand them all and this is applicable to the particular thing you wrote.

>>10887587
First, you are fighting a losing battle by protesting the half-baked ideas of old generations of dead or senile hippies. The interconnectedness that is experienced can be almost explained by the convenient God, but, as you were right to say, that explanation is built on falsities, but those falsities potentially lead to a trucity, or at least towards an ideal of trucity. Because of this, you can't discard these old, seemingly half-baked ideas completely for within them exists at least a (smallest possible) unit of measurement of truth. This is an inconvenient but true truth that can be extrapolated into pantheism, as all material and immaterial houses within it the (smallest possible) unit of the truest and most-good thing which is God. Arguing with the abyss or your absurd is definitely arrogance to a severe degree but within that arrogance exists some truth for that arrogance could not exist without it. The abyss looking upon you and me and us is seeing the same thing we think we see.

>>10887672
You're not arguing with an abyss, you confront an abyss as an individual in accordance with divine gifts. Pantheism is levelling, especially when drugs are involved. The 60s were a perfect example of an abstracted ideal that killed God.

>>10887672
>>10887756
Do Apostles exist in pantheism or only a Genius?

>>10887181
This is good reasoning here.

Was he even sincere?

>>10887872
So sincere he killed himself

>>10886775
Is no one going to recognize the greatness of this?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKdZU9Db6fk

>>10887872
No.

oh it's one of those threads where autismos go on a 50 post reply chain about nothing
shame, thread had potential

>>10885709
Anon, if you don't think he's a meme based on that quote, you might be a meem.

>>10888051
The camera guy is so awkward in this, every time he talk he makes me want to die

>>10888806
Now you know how it feels to be around you.

>>10888850
BURRRRNNNN

>>10888806
Dude was an absolute pleb who did not deserve his job. Why would you interject during an interview if your job is to work the camera?

>>10881817
damn, I thought this guy was just a meme, but he's saying the shit I like to hear.

>>10888850
>just had a seemingly nice conversation with a girl today
>what you say is probably true
jfmsu

>>10882258
>I DONT THINK ANYONE WORSHIPS THEIR OWN BODY AS A DEITY, DAVID
Maybe not you, fatty.

>>10889667
agreed, "your body is a temple" is a mantra I've heard many times before

>>10883994
Hey don't mind this guy >>10885449, get a copy of IJ and just find out what happens. The fact that it's memed so much around here should give you enough information to know whether you should go for it or not (in terms of accessibility and themes). Dont waste your time ready non representative non fiction of the author. My 2 cents

>>10885834
science isn't a religion. culture is the word you're looking for, dumbass
>are replacing
you speak like this is a process that is taking place and not one that has ended a lot of time ago
>>10885878
>i'm so le more intelligent and above le masses

>>10889977
>science isn't a religion. culture is the word you're looking for
Doesn't science exist within the culture?

>>10885777
that's the entire point of the speech though. this is water is literally him saying that the most banal platitudes in life are so obvious to us that we forget that they have power. maybe you should do yourself a favor and actually listen to it, it's pretty neeeeeeeeeeat.

>taking advice from a guy that killed himself (and for no particular reason at that)

>>10891435
ugly unthinking meme

>>10882268
this is a nice concrete definition thnx