/lit/ - Literature

>>10875258
I have a friend that recently became much more left, and it was one of the first times I have experienced this idea of 'virtue-signalling' in real life. I consider myself a centrist but the way this guy was talking to me like I was an idiot made me actually consider the alt-right's viewpoints.

However, reading this I realised that he doesn't care about helping people. It's
> the need to satisfy his drive for power by imposing his solutions on society

>>10875262
Fishhook theory is true

>>10875258
He's right you know

>>10875273
I guess viewpoints was the wrong word. It's more that I empathized with their own feelings of oppression, being told you're on the wrong side of history etc.

The funny thing is I agreed with him on 95% of what he was saying... it was the WAY he said it that really pissed me off, and then reading this post it occured to me that it's because of the fact that he always needed to have his way.

>>10875258
Why exactly?

>>10875279
It's likely he is just a newfag that doesn't know how to have a polite conversation yet. This kind of behavior doesn't have anything to do with political afilation.
I'm an anarchist and I can get Oklahoma aut rights and evangelical neocons to agree with me on labor issues and understand my views on property with careful rhetoric. One on one that is, it's best to just shut the fuck up and keep your head low if they are in a gaggle. Liberals are harder to have a dialogue with in imo.

>>10875299
>One on One
True, because the dialogue is the most important thing. Our conversation basically boiled down to me nodding and looking for an exit while he rambled at me. If I made a reply, it was ignored and he would just continue his point.

I agree it has nothing to do with political affiliation, which is why I found the quote in OP so interesting, because it made me realise that it's less about caring for the world's problems and more about lauding his intelligence.

>>10875258
Kaczynski was always fucked in the head, don't be surprised when to find out it's always a form of projection with these sorts of people

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-09-12/news/9809120119_1_unabomber-theodore-kaczynski-dr-sally-johnson-paranoid-schizophrenia
>Convicted Unabomber Theodore J. Kaczynski considered having a sex change operation when he was in his twenties and his confusion over his gender identity filled him with a rage that contributed to his bombing spree, according to documents released today.

>>10875262
If you're just starting to notice these social norms now you're probably on the autistic spectrum, Kaczynski was probably an assburger as well fyi
"Virtue Signaling by Geoffrey Miller": https://vimeo.com/236430422

>>10875331
I've noticed them in the media for years, if that's what you mean. I've managed to avoid them in my day to day life fairly easily.

>>10875331
>goes under MKUltra
>resists it

dude what a freak

>Suppose you asked rightists to make a list of ALL the things that were wrong with society, and then suppose you instituted EVERY social change that they demanded. It is safe to say that within a couple of years the majority of rightsts would find something new to complain about, some new moral “evil” to correct; because, once again, the rightist is motivated less by distress at society’s ills than by the need to satisfy his drive for power by imposing his solutions on others.

>>10875343
Wow it's almost like no extreme side of the political spectrum is the one true complete answer for everything

>>10875331
>Chicago Tribune
>He was just in rejection of his true gender identity
Aaaaaand discarded ,

>>10875333
No you haven't, "virtue signaling" is just a buzzword for a basic biological response, if your mommy and daddy didn't engaged in some virtue signaling chances are you wouldn't be here today

>>10875339
Tons of other undergrads volunteered to participate in the experiments and didn't become psychos, he had issues before but it's probably just one of the factors which trigged him into the violence

>>10875361
> if your mommy and daddy didn't engaged in some virtue signaling chances are you wouldn't be here today

you seem retarded

>>10875331
Is it still projection if he's right?

>>10875331
It may be, but this schizophrenia diagnostic is so much bullshit. So much effort put to make the guy be seem as crazy.
It's funny cos he said this would happen.

This article is probably bullocks. The cite an unsealed a psychiatric profile , but don't provide the file and he never say something like sex change in any of his published letters and there is a lot of them.
It's a bunch of text using one another as source and none of them providing good source.

>>10875361
>Tons of other undergrads volunteered to participate in the experiments and didn't become psychos
says here they turned into something worse, Americans

>>10875359
If you leave the fact that he wanted to be a tranny at one point out of the story just because it doesn't fit your narrative then you're not going to really get the full picture of the guy.

>>10875382
He just didn't want people looking to closely into his background obviously because he wanted to maintain an image, a lot of spree killers have similar fucked up backgrounds

>>10875398
But he wasn't a spree killer.
He was a terrorist, he killed to draw attention to his cause.

>>10875308
everything we are or do or say it’s just spectacle

>>10875308
>>10875262
>this stupid guy is patronizing me with his rhetoric!
Just ignore the patronizing part. Only insecure women feel something when they are patronized.

>>10875425
it was less 'I am patronizing you' and more 'sit here for 2 hours and listen to me rant but don't say anything yourself' in which case yeah I am gonna leave

>>10875425
hmm no sorry sweetie if a guy is talking to me like I'm almost retarded I'm not going to take him seriously.

>>10875262
>Being talked to like you are an idiot made you consider the alt right

You are an idiot, also, centrists constantly talk to everyone as if they're an idiot.

>>10875448
yawn

>>10875425
i don’t think it’s a matter of womanishly feeling subjugation to them rather than realizing how narcissistic they are and leave for good

>>10875262
Fuck off, radical centrist retard. Letzter Mensch

>>10875299
Liberals are right-wing

>>10875352
DAE LE RADICAL CENTRISM? XDDDDD PERPETUATE LE STATUS QUO FREE MARKET OF IDEAS EXCEPT ANY IDEAS THAT I DONT LIKE ELON MUSK MARS GUBMINT

>>10875467
Yawn all you want. If being patronized "one of the first times" by a leftist makes you consider ethno-nationalism you are an imbecile.

>A socialist hurt my feelings so i'm going to listen to a fascist now

>>10875343
Ted has his own definition of a leftie
Basically the rightists you are talking about are leftists to him

>>10875442
>if a guy is talking to me like I'm almost retarded I'm not going to take him seriously.
>hmm no sorry sweetie
I totally agree with the premise of your thought process but you BTFOd yourself before you started.

>>10875361
"virtue signaling" is when you aren't operating in a manner that's consistent with a worthwhile moral framework, it's when you're being a over-socialized faggot trying to restructure the dominance hierarchy by deifying losers and demonizing the winners. you're doing nothing more than showcasing the fact that you're high in agreeableness and that you're a dynamic team player.
you don't like islam because of some theological considerations, you like islam because it's the brown man's religion and if brown people are to be integrated into mainstream western society there has to be people who pay lip service to their religion

>>10875480
>>10875308
This reply turned out to be relevant to you as well OP
I know this. I consider almost all non socialists(including soc-dems) to be liberals (except for some of the /pol/ snowflakes and weirdos). There I was using "liberal' in it's contemporary colloquial sense. Particularly to the psuedo-left. bernie Bros and social dems are the hardest people to talk too one on one, I don't think they are particularly bad but they are so full of it in general, of course that's not very true they still need to be treated with a fair amount of intellectual empathy, if I thought otherwise I would be no better than the homo OP is flustered about. It's just that the more theorhetical a person's politics are the more pig headed they can be. Of course that pig headedness goes away with self awareness. Self awareness which comes from experience, I know when I first got political I had the same kind of behavior op is talking about (not so much virtue signaling but inconsiderate and preteinsous monologuing) it went away with time, I eventually came to realize all the cringey mistakes I made as I formed my beliefs, and learned how to have a dialogue in the time being. I think that's just a common thing people do when they are trying to develop an identity, I don't think it has too much to do with wanting power over other people so much as wishing to have power over their own identity, it's a common, almost systemic narcissism.
Even actual fascists are too cowardly to tout their bullshit about, I think it's because people like that are very insecure and conscious about domination, which is why they like to gang up against helpless minorities and wish to be dominated by state and private powers. I get that I'm off on a tangent now but if feel like the contemporary right wing has a lot to do with the way our education and work functions, I think people with the complex I just described are the babies of bureaucracy that have been beat into submission.

>>10875258
So is his manifesto just an edgy meme or is he actually worth reading for some weird reason?

>>10875258
>This man represented everything he hated.

Afraid I don't follow m8. Care to elucid8?

>>10875590
def worth reading.

Its a 101 basics on sociology, philosphy and the way he wrote it makes it easier to undestand whatever the fuck he's saying.

>>10875398
>He just didn't want people looking to closely into his background obviously because he wanted to maintain an image, a lot of spree killers have similar fucked up backgrounds

>He just didn't want people looking to closely into his background obviously because he wanted to maintain an image, a lot of spree killers have similar fucked up backgrounds

if he wanted to maintain an image why did he "tell" the doc or whatever that he wanted to be a tranny? Why would he?

>>10875590
A mix of both
He raises some good points and his claims are mostly true. The conclusions that he makes are what makes him crazy

It's a very easy and a short read, you can pretend that you're just reading a 4chan thread with all the shitposts hidden

>>10875490
/subthread

>>10875658
What?

Nihilism is a dumb ass enlightenment meme for people who don't understand what meaning is. It comes from the scotusian breaking of intentional relations connecting knower to known , and ultimately nominalism, Cartesian mind body dualism, and elimanitive materialism.
Nihilism is absurd and will hopefully fade into obsucrutity as post-peirceian semiotic ontologies of sign relations rise. After you understand the casual efficacy of signs and the importance of meaning making and inter-subjectivity you can break free of the Cartesian imprisonment of a mind inside a brain.
Of course you don't need to understand any of that, even dirt poor, illiterate thirdworlders are commonly wise enough to understand that the meaning of life is to make meaning.
Stop treating meaning like a meme.

>>10875633
>Its a 101 basics on sociology
Everyone needs to keep in mind that, though much of what he has to say is not original, he derived it independently - making the work still have merit as source material.

>>10875668
>post-peirceian semiotic ontologies of sign relations
What are these and where I can read about them?

>>10875475
uhmm sweetie not sure if you're familiar with this school of shitposting but I'd advise you to wise up on it before snapping at me okay mr. grumpy pants

>>10875475
sorry sweetums this reply: >>10875706
was meant for this loveable but uninformed boy: >>10875492

>>10875668
This has to be an ironic bait pasta, nobody can be this stupid

>>10875710
Congratulations, you made me smile.

>>10875668
How is this form of speech called? The one where you substitute simple words with fringe synonyms to impress the 16 year old pink haired girls at the philosophy club and anger normal people with your pretentiousness?

>>10875668
>his writing style is so contrived that he probably had to check the meaning of every second word he used to not accidentially fuck up his entire message
Good

>>10875262
Not everyone who dislikes the left is alt right sweetie. Think for a second there: it was literally Hillary who coined the term alt-right. Do you think it's reliable as a movement? The vast majority of them only want to live in a neocon boomer style world. The final redpill is realising anyone who endorses materialism is your enemy(that might include yourself, even)

>>10875668
What if the meaning is the act of hedonism itself?

>>10875258
>the leftist is motivated less by distress at society’s ills than by the need to satisfy his drive for power by imposing his solutions on society

>30. We certainly do not claim that leftists, even of the oversocialized type, NEVER rebel against the fundamental values of our society. Clearly they sometimes do. Some oversocialized leftists have gone so far as to rebel against one of modern society’s most important principles by engaging in physical violence. By their own account, violence is for them a form of “liberation.” In other words, by committing violence they break through the psychological restraints that have been trained into them.

I think it is safe to say that Ted was a leftist to some extent at some point in his life (maybe not blatantly, like a BLM advocate for example, but perhaps on a more subconscious level); he lived in society for 25 years. He followed societal rules and expectations: went to school, obeyed the law, became a white-collar professor.

To some extent, his writings on leftism could be attributed to his own experience as a leftist himself, along with his self-saturation in leftist society by the mere fact that he lived in leftist society his entire adolescent and young adult life. We cannot ignore the fact that it is easier to achieve insight into matters when you've been entrenched in them yourself, as Ted seems to have been in leftist society.

Ted realized the error of his and society's ways and "broke through the psychological restraints that had been trained into him" (see (30) above) by leaving the grid and making the decision to assemble bombs. He was oversocialized, but no more.

Furthermore, there is a distinction between the type of power that the unenlightened leftist seeks (through collectivism) and the type of power that Ted seeks (individual or small communal autonomy [which is in fact, what his entire essay is about]). The leftist imposes his solutions on society to feel better about himself without realizing that his efforts are insufficient and will never bring him happiness. They will never bring him a true idea of what it means to feel "powerful." The leftist's impositions make people weaker, and in fact, push them further away from autonomy by making them reliant on the system (welfare, civil rights, reliance on technology, making the black man conform to white standards). Contrarily, Ted believes that a return to nature DOES satisfy the need for power. HIS impositions therefore lead to true power, the autonomy of the individual (self-reliability) in the long run.

So perhaps Ted isn't being hypocritical here OP.

>>10875731
sententious prolixity

>>10875731
Sophistic Obstructionism

>>10875590


>>10875656
lmao, yeah it truly feels like a bunch of good posts from lit, pol and r9k sticked together. It's easy to read and interesting.

>>10875740
my fucking sides

>>10875258
Wow Ted, it's almost like society can never be completely perfected and even when you manage to fix or improve on the old problems new ones inevitably crop up, it's almost like that's just how the world works, weird huh?

>>10875813
t. reductive brainlet

>>10875731
obfuscative lexicography

>>10875754
>it was literally Hillary who coined the term alt-right.
Sauce?

>>10875331
>"Virtue Signaling by Geoffrey Miller": https://vimeo.com/236430422
>high IQ people like myself vote for the right people and also casual sex and drugs are cool, *tips fedora*
This guy is something else, his lecture is mostly about not signaling your intelligence but it's mostly what he does throughout the thing. It's either post irony or complete lack of social skills

>>10875258
I love how many people hopped onto Kaczynski's dick just because of a few passages talking smack about the left, as if his ideas were anything but batshit.

>>10875583
>colloquial
You mean American doublethink bullshit
99.99% OF AMERICANS ARE LIBERALS
100% OF PEOPLE WITH ANY POLITICAL POWER BEYOND A SINGLE DAMN VOTE IN AMERICA ARE LIBERALS

>>10875868
I hopped onto his dick for the other passages, not because of the leftist parts.

His ideas aren't really batshit. His conclusion to take down society might be far-fetched, but the symptoms and causes of unhappiness in society he elucidates on are certainly not.

>>10875668
>Of course you don't need to understand any of that, even dirt poor, illiterate thirdworlders are commonly wise enough to understand that the meaning of life is to make meaning.
You are treating meaning like a meme. Fuck off, nihilist retard.

>>10875704
Check out
Semiotic freedom an emergening force

https://www..~sciencedirect.~com/science/article/pii/S0079610715000929

https://www..~sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/~S0079610715001236

https://www..~sciencedirect.com~/science/article/pii/ S0079610715001157

https://www..~sciencedirect.~com /science/article/pii/~S0079610715001261

http://www..~sss.ut.~ee/index.php/sss

Springer biosemiotics


https://tidsskrift..~dk/signs

Books
Essential biosemiotics an anthology and commentary (well done)

Peirce's Doctrine of Signs: Theory, Applications, and Connections

Consensus on Peirce’s Concept of Habit: Before and Beyond ...

Incomplete nature: how mind emerged from matter

Peirce in his own words

Biosemiotics: examination into the signs of life and the life of signs


Any of the links are enough if you follow your nose.

>>10875760
All sensation, perception, interpretation, thought, abstracion, consciousness, ect are grounded in meaning that comes about from semiotic relations. Meaning is what fills the space between relationships, it's is what does the relating. The enlightenment sense of meaning is very particular, it Is better but as purpose, what life is supposed to fufill. As we know the general superveines on the particular, in the context of nhilism the meaning of human life is the same as any life, to make meaning, how tdo you fufill this purpose? You make meaning this holds true for all actions of life from meosis to marriage.

>>10875731
>>10875740
I'm sorry I made you insecure.
BTW I prefer to call it
'bombast blitzkrieg' it's a super sick shitposting style I developed.

BTW I didn't mean to reply to this thread.

>He used an old bicycle to get to town, and a volunteer at the local library said he visited frequently to read classic works in their original languages
is ted /ourguy/

>>10875941
>is ted /ourguy/
This was already established long ago. He is not the man that the propaganda organ portrayed.

>>10875941
he actually read books so no

>>10875920
You're masking your insecurity by shitposting while putting an insecure persona.
Yes, the insecure aspie may just seem like a persona for you but it simply shows that you are so insecure about your insecurity that you pretend that it's just a persona.

Seek help

>>10875920
I get more buttblasted (You)'s with short sentences than you do with your """bombast blitzkrieg"""
But I guess you enjoy the process so it's cool

I didn't read this thread but Trotsky advocated for "permanent revolution," which in his view would lead to a dramatically reformed society that would be more wonderful than even the revolutionaries who established it could have imagined.

>>10875920
Is 'bombast blitzkrieg' your 'meaning'?

>>10875920
>bombast blitzkrieg
Is there something more to it other than just going full fedora?
Is this "shitposting style" even a real thing or you just came up with a name right now to continue your le epic trolles by pretending to be a fedora?

>>10875920
>it's a super sick shitposting style I developed.
>Everybody is super stoked on me and they don't even know it.
Tend your field farmer. (You)

>>10875920
>It's his second post and he's already on "I trol u"
I think you need to work on your technique and be less enthusiastic about the (You)'s you get
Also link the thread that you've meant to post this in

>>10875960
>Seek help
This phrase was already worn-out horseshit by the mid 80s.

>>10875813
bhahahah thats EXACTLY his point hahahhaha you should've read the fucking hour long book lmao ahaha that was amazing

>>10875920
Let me elaborate on "the purpose of life is to make meaning"
All dynamic systems have an orientation. Living systems are oreinted towards interpreting meaning from information contained in sign veichles that carry contextualized information about objects in themselves and their environment, (check out the uxekullian umwelt innenwelt) this is to maintain a steady state of being able to do so(self organization, teleology sensu deacon(BTW the denial of Aristotles fromal and final causes was a big misstep, they make sense secularly))
This is how material is given meaning by a third point between object and idea, peirces interpertant meaning that related the two through the dynamics of semiosis. It avoids the silly idealsm/realsim problem that so troubles modernity and problems in structuralism and post structuralism that are very much in the same vein. Although deleuze and guattari got pretty damn close and studied it giving them tremendous insight into the way the dynamics of sign relations give meaning and scaffolding, the failed to get the triad which is by far the most important thing to get about peirces semiotic. Which is to reiterate that it relates reals to feels.
So we have in what I called post peirceian semiotics (signs made of information carried in material sign vehicles interpreted semiotic agents through an intereflexive relation of the sign to the agent) a ground for a pragmatic 'phenomenology'. Signs basically fufill every role the concept of an elan vital, soul, dao, ect with a pragmatic explanation. This is most appearant in signs carried in DNA(material vehicle) being interpreted by cells(agents) that have arose from semiotic scaffolding (evolution, ontogeny, it's perceptions and senseation(umwelten)) can contextualize genetic code(intereflexivity) in order to oreint itself(teleogy, autopoesis)
Check out deacon, hoffmeyer (his work on bateson and bateson) cybersemiotics, and uxekull. For more details like this.
>>10875960
It must suck to be in the shadow of my massive brain.
>>10875968
I do this mainly to improve my fluency
>>10875983
I just made it up, I'm doing this for practice I guess.
>>10875997
No joke I've been hiding in my green house when I should be planting onions and driving fenceposts.(I took too much adderal) After this post.
>>10876008
The only trolling part is me being grandiose. I'm really just trying to work on some concepts and [/spoiler] waste time

>>10876108
I congratulate you on derailing this thread faggot

>>10876111
What are you about?
Aspie lolcows are better than regular discussion