/lit/ - Literature

Othello, in a roundabout way

As in all things, you should start with the Greeks. In this case, The Illiad.

masculinity is toxic and gross. read some rupi kaur and bell hooks instead

Vidya is the most authentic meditation on contemporary masculinity.

>>10869303
no

Das Kapital

>>10869289
Do you really need a book to understand masculinity? Isn't it pretty intuitive? Just be strong, confident, have your shit in order, have a job.

>>10869289
Unironically the Greeks. Also the Romans.

>>10869289
Assuming you've already done the Greeks, books that emphasise self-sufficiency and some form of Ora Et Labora is what you're looking for.
Grab Walden, then go innawoods for a week or two and don't touch anything that didn't exist before 1910.

>>10869464
>Monks
>Masculine

>>10869289
James Crumley's books. Every friendship starts with a bar fight.

>>10869486
>men living without the vaginal jew clouding their judgement
Yeah, I'd call that masculine

>inb4 they're not masculine because they have self-control and don't fuck cheap whores and smash even cheaper drugs like I do

>>10869625
>vaginal jew
That is the best thing I've ever read

>jack donovan
boy do i have the proper follow up for you

>>10869625
>inb4 they're not masculine because they have self-control and don't smash cheap drugs and fuck even cheaper whores like I do.
Fixed it.

>>10869289

it's written by a literal gay satanist, so it's hardly a good source for conventional, socially conservative western men who want to think about manhood in a philosophical way that they can actually feel good about-they would always have gotten their ideas from a literal satanic fag, and there's no getting rid of that stink. OTOH the pro-Donovan camp could observe that the whole point of masculinity is a basic, raw power. IIRC Donovan (in his blog) differentiates between a swinging-dick Hell's Angel and some obidient, productive schlub in this way: the latter is /the better man/ in a sense, but the former /is better at being a man/. This construction simply takes basic masculinity and works with it.

>>10869824
>socially conservative
What does that mean?

>>10869371
>being a wagie
>masculine

>>10869289
If you need to ask this question you may as hell go on HRT since no matter what you do you're just going to relapse into effete fatalism, a product broken on the assembly line is never going to function

>>10869289
>The Centurion Method Training Manual
>Sigurd - Book of the Heroic Outlaw
>Might Is Right
>The Sacred Path of the Warrior
>The Hero with a Thousand Faces
The list goes on

>"""" literal gay satanist""""
Not an argument.

>>10869303
fag.

>>10869625
>mortification of your body
>masculine

>>10870111
Reviewbrah is the male power fantasy: a man entirely unbeholden to the societal norms imposed on him --a true maverick.

>>10869300
>start with the Greeks
Xenophon's Anabasis is a historical account of manhood as forged and tested by millitary expedition.

>>10869289
>Jack Donovan
>entitled to talk about masculinity

>>10869371
>have a job

you, my friend, suck cock for breakfast

>>10869625
i like your idealism about monks

>>10869486
>the absolute state of /lit/

>What are some good books about masculinity?
Not 'The way of men'. It's a below average book until the last few chapters where Donovan shows how gay he is. Don't believe me? He wants you to form a tight nit group of men only and wrestle naked in the bush with them once a month to 'bond as a gang' of men. Of course, if that wasn't enough, the reason to do so is because the sky is falling and 'western civilization is coming to an end', despite never being more powerful and culturally dominating in the world. Seriously, go ahead, but don't expect anything grand and mighty from Donovan. Also, the spacing of paragraphs in this book is really irritating, the whole thing could be reduced to half the length if it wasn't for those, id wager this book took about a week to write for any normal person, substance is lackluster. Poorly written, and extremely shallow in actually dealing with masculinity and male sexuality. That's all I have to complain about with 'the way of men'.

>>10869464
>Grab Walden, then go innawoods for a week or two and don't touch anything that didn't exist before 1910
So, what you're saying is, that masculinity, really, is a very dated, concept?

>>10869289
>WHY CAN'T I HIT WOMEN ANYMORE
>IT'S SO HARD BEING MALE
>THE ENTIRE WORLD IS AGAINST ME
Definitely not your pic related

>>10870489
>modern society suppresses masculinity or only allows its expression in brief semi-cathartic things like sports.

>>10869371
>have a job

>>10870532
bure ideology :DDDD better starve :DDDDD

>>10870528
Couldn't have put it better, lad
>>10870413
Thank you, anon

>>10870535

>>10870528
>modern society suppresses masculinity
How retarded do you have to be to actually believe this?

>>10870545
I see your Althusserian babble and raise my Powerstructural babble
>Pro-tip: critiques of ideology are themselves a product of the same ideology. You can never escape power! What will you do know?

>>10870555
You don't understand either philosopher friend.

>>10870549
As retarded as this guy and countless others.

>>10870489

Masculinity as well as femininity were both destroyed completely the exact moment they became "concepts".

>>10870562
I didn't we were having a se

>>10870569
*a serious discussion

>>10870565
>As retarded as this guy
So indeed very retarded

>>10870568
Why? Because people won't take responsibility for their affects?

>>10870574
not him, but it probably had something to do with them becoming affects

>>10870573
You convinced me my opinion is incorrect. Cheers.

>>10870555
>critiques of ideology are themselves a product of the same ideology. You can never escape.
Confirmed for never engaging with the Ziz, this is one of his main theses. When you believe you are free from ideology, that is in fact when you are most inside of it

>>10869371
Lmao you sound like a woman

>>10869289
masculinity is letting donovan fuck your manly ass

>>10869289
>western males are so screwed by modernity that they need to be taught how to be men again by a homosexual

>>10871026
homosexuals created western civilization you dumb fuck ;)

>>10870593
It's sad that you require a woman to tell you how to be a man.

>>10869289
Why don't you read books about femininit y and do the the exactly oposite? From what I see in this thread so far, this would be much easier.

Starting strength

>>10869289
Male Fantasies by Klaus Theweleit

>donovan is like gay haha he kisses men ewwww lol he should kiss girls for sure

is anyone here not a teenager?

>>10870111
That looks ridiculous without a belt

>>10869371
Unironically the Quran and the Hadith and Islamic history. Islam is the only living tradition that values traditional masculinity. The rest of the world is either a bunch of post-industrial bugmen, lukewarm liberal pseudo-christians or literal savages.

Islam is the only point where civilisation and masculinity coexist.

>>10869289
Donovan is literally gay. He can't teach you shit about manhood.

>>10871408
The funniest thing about is that he comes across as a butch lesbian/ftm trannie because he larps so hard. It's uncomfortable to see him speak with his fake masculinity.

>>10871437
True, but his literature is still valid.

>>10869303

Another right winger misunderstands the concept of toxic masculinity.

"Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. Other stereotypically masculine traits, such as self-reliance and the stifling of emotions, are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse. Scholars argue that the socialization of boys often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying and aggression.

"Toxic" masculine traits are contrasted with more traditionally positive masculine traits such as devotion to work, pride in excelling at sports, and providing for one's family. The concept of toxic masculinity was originally used by authors associated with the mythopoetic men's movement in contrast to a "real" or "deep" masculinity that they say men have lost touch with in modern society."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

What about that seems so wrong to you?

>>10869289
The Bible
>>10871544
Left-wing ideologues attack men directly and promote femininity as the solution. Modern feminists rarely, if ever, promote a return to “traditional masculinity”, and the type of men most critical of “toxic masculinity” are so-called soyboys. This has allowed men like Jack Donovan to misconstrue the issue.

>>10871534
>true, and therefore his literature is invalid

>>10871388
>what are suspenders
LMAOing at your life

>>10869371
You're talking to the sons of single mothers, what did you expect

>>10871343
Faggots are the same as women when it comes to preaching about masculinity. Both groups' opinions are to be discarded.

>>10871712
>promote femininity as the solution
ahaha, sorry son you're straight up retarded

>subjugating yourself to some kind of arbitrary concept like 'masculinity' for no reason whatsoever
Well cucked, my friends.

>>10869826

In American Conservatism it's usually referencing policy based on virtue ethics or natural law.

>>10871771
>I can't be called a faggot If I pretend not to believe in genders

Pathetic faggot.

>>10871712

No they don't. You're just spouting right wing memes that have little basis in history or reality. Give me an example of this.

>>10871798
>I need somebody else to tell me what made-up ideology to adhere to because I'm a weak faggot that can't think for himself
Really makes me think.

Also, who said anything about genders and homosexuality? You projecting there, pal?

>>10871771
"I'm a man!!!" he screams, lips stretched into a manic grin as tears flow down his face. "I'm happy. I'm fulfilled. It's all I ever wanted." he chokes out, his throat constricted by the hole in his soul. "I. Am. Content." he whispers, the meaninglessness of his existence lurking in the back of his mind, extending its glistening red cock and placing it gently on the anus of his amygdala. "I am a man...." his mind echoes, as the engorged metaphorical penis starts to slide into the metaphorical anus. The man closes his eyes and imagines himself swaying gently in the wind, hanging from a sturdy rope. The end.

>>10869289
I'm reading the Illiad now, got about 40 pages to go. Go Greek baby.

>>10871401
>Islam is the only point where civilisation and masculinity coexist.

So you mean raping little girls?

>>10871871
Where do you get that idea?

>>10871798
>2018
>not recognizing yourself as the creative nothing
Stay spooked

>>10871544
Implying that violence is inherently bad and should be avoided at all costs is an opinion that only belongs to the weak

>>10869289

>>10869371
>have a job
wow no. there is almost nothing more immasculating than that.

>>10872624
Faye : pornograph, radio host in a station owned by a pedophile
Benoist : defended a pedophile, pro-abortion, called for people to vote for a communist mason in 2017
Donovan : fag and kike
Devi : crazy hinduist
Linkola : fingol nihilist
Willinger : pro-jewry

>>10871544
everything

>>10873546
>Implying there's anything wrong with abortion or hinduists

>>10873511
t. virgin neet

>>10871712
>Left-wing ideologues attack men directly and promote femininity as the solution
They promote femininity for men, and masculinity for women.

>>10872171
from all the raping of little girls

Masculinity is a tranny myth, a general trend doesn't mean people are somehow universally limited.

>>10871771
post a photo of your flexed bicep

OP here. These responses suck. Most of you suck. I hate most of you.

>>10869289
>reading books written by homos
bruh

>>10871857
The Iliad might not be what OP is looking for
The Iliad showcases a shame-culture, as opposed to a guilt. When a character flees in battle, he isn't upset because he failed to meet his own standards; he's upset because he failed to meet the standards of others. Shame is external, guilt is internal, and The Iliad showcases a culture built almost entirely on shame.
OP is looking to be self-motivated. An epic that showcases men shamed into greatness won't help him

>>10873744
Read 12 Rules For Life if you like Jordan Peterson. He's very hit-or-miss though. If you're not interested in his one man war on postmodernism, you'll probably dislike it.
If you hate him and want some ancient philosophy, read Letters From a Stoic. It's not intentionally focused on masculinity, but it seems like what you're looking for.
If you want a fun edgy novel centered on masculinity, read Fight Club. It doesn't have too much depth, but it's fun.

The lack of serious answers in this thread, and the general skull-fuckery on display, has convinced me that room exists for a book on this topic.

>>10873875
OP try Ernst Jünger, Stahlgewitter and Der Arbeiter

>>10871544
how the fuck is self reliance ever a negative trait?

>>10873836
Is being neurotic ever a virtue (outside of Judaism obviously)?

>>10873889
>correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse.

>>10871544
>What about that seems so wrong to you?
It turns men into weaklings. Men should be self-reliant, they should be strong, they should not allow their emotions to bind them.

>>10873815
Well who could be more enamored with masculinity than a manly faggot?

>>10874218
I'm pretty sure highly reliant people have those issues even more so.

>>10873889
I guess they're thinking about something more than material self reliance.

>>10874496
>It's true because i feel like it's true

>>10871401
>Islam is the only point where civilisation and masculinity coexist.

whats's why every islamic country is a shithole and almost everyone was subject to european colonisation. get cucked

>>10869371
This guy is right.
>t. NEET

>The Old Man and the Sea
>A Farewell to Arms
>Storm of Steel
That's all I got so far.

>masculinity

Let's first go over why being an edgy autist is bad

>>10874518
Sure, Europeans dominated the world, but at what price? Look at Western culture now. Decadent, nihilistic, no sense of worth or even an instinct of self-preservation. They're just tired and worldweary and don't believe in anything except not wanting to give offense to the people taking over their countries.

European civilisation was a self-destructive sprint. Traditional cultures go the distance.

>>10875092
Anon, can you give us a quick rundown on this one? I’ve heard it recommended before.

>>10873889
Being capable of self-reliance is one thing. Foregoing profitable social relationships to prove that you can be self-reliant is dumb, but people do it in a lot of subtle ways that eventually screw up their mental health.

>>10869289
daily reminder that jack donovan is a sodomite

>>10869289
Iron John

>>10869289
>LOL KILLING AND WAR IS MANLY MAH DUDE

This is why this species is fucking doomed.

>>10876393
What could be more alpha than fucking another man?

>>10876395
>t. didn't read the book
His argument is that men working together in tight-knit groups for a common purpose is a key component of their mental health. Once upon a time those groups were organized for hunting or warfare but they do not necessarily have to be for those things.

Fifty bucks says this is not what Jack Donovan actually looks like.

>>10876411
>Snowflake tattoo on shoulder

Like fucking poetry.

Ernst Junger Storm of Steel

>Google images of Jack Donovan
>Immediately get images of faggots fists each others assholes

Is this guy a faggot?

>>10876441
OH SHIT, this guy is a legitimate homosexual! AHAHAHAHAH FUCK..

Why are the super cut body builder type guys ALWAYS ass pounding homos?

>>10876403
someone needs to post the screenshot of the guy saying greeks thought it was gay to eat pussy but straight to fuck women and even more masculine to fuck another dude

>>10874218
But isn't that just verbal fuckery? I'd think the state of being incapable of self reliance is just as bad as the state of being incapable of positive emotion (depression). It's an indicator in itself.

>>10869289
Masculinity is a social construct.

anti-oedipus

>>10869371
so many contstructs so little time

>>10871712
no they dont

literally no one has problem with man, the problem is the world is created in favour of man, it priviliges them for simply being a man (white and cishet ofcourse).
No one on the left wants to overthrow man, they want to overthrow patriarchy which is not the same thing

If you would stop basing your opinions on tweets, right wing meems and shit like that perhaps we would not live in such horrible world

>>10869289
>>Rightwingers turn to a homosexual deviant to reaffirm their beliefs about their preconceptions of what a "real man" is or should be

How fucking hilarious.

>>10876378
watch out for tornado's, mermaids and triangles(fucking impossible I know, right?)

>>10876892
>so little time

>>10874218
self reliance has an association with depression, stress, and substance abuse because being self reliant is hard. Many weak men who attempt to be self reliant can't handle it, and so become sad drunks to cope. Their failure does not make self reliance negative for those truly capable of it.

>>10876403
>His argument is that men working together in tight-knit groups for a common purpose is a key component of their mental health
It's a key component of anyone's mental health. Stating the obvious.

Hero with a thousand faces.

most things by Hemingway, but the most direct is old man and the sea.

>>10877596
>of men
I don't think women have a need to work in tight-knit groups of men. It's fairly controversial right now to advocate for male-only spaces.

>>10871544
>Other stereotypically masculine traits, such as self-reliance and the stifling of emotions, are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse.
Yeah because facing life fucking sucks sometimes and people need to cope
>"Toxic" masculine traits are contrasted with more traditionally positive masculine traits such as devotion to work, pride in excelling at sports, and providing for one's family
In other words, the only positive form of masculinity is masculinity with no struggle , as if everyone is so fortunate that trite hobbies and status quo responsibilitws can be considered "positive" and not simply a step down from their duty

>>10876908
Patriarchy exists simply because men are on average better that women at just everything

>>10873601
hinduists tend to be fucken indians

>>10871388
He's wearing suspenders. What bugs me more is that he goes for quantity over quality. 90% of his suits are cut nowhere near a man of his size. If he'd actually spend the money on getting a few suits taken in, or better yet, bespoke to order instead of filling a walk-in closet with dead grandpa's clothes from Goodwill, it would do wonders in making him look less awkward and unnatural looking.

That and he really needs to work on his posture. Ever wonder why they hammered posture so much back in the day? Because men look like crap when they're slouched over like an anchovy while wearing a suit.

>>10873546
Abortions are one of the best things going right now, my man.

Every woman who wants one has already earned as many as she desires. There is no need to force her to perpetuate her own self destroying genetics.

>>10874218
Psychological problems don't exist

I ordered that book online, and about halfway through, I began doubting its contents. Me finishing that book was the turning point of being alt-right, and since then, my mental health and my own happyness, as well as ideological security, has increased. It's an awful book, is what I'm saying, but it's important to me because it pointed out what a retarded course I was setting for myself, ideologically.

>>10879358
Also when I researched Jack Donovan for his examples of male gang get togethers, I saw a picture of him with his arm over an acne-faced mildly chubby sixteen year olds shoulder, and thought to myself, yep, they're totally made for eachother; Jack Donovans demographic is this atomized lil faggot, and a person like Jack Donovan is exactly who an above-average-but-not-smart depressed (gay) teenager would look up to.

Oh and also they were in some German viking larp camp where they pretended to be barbarians for a week..

D E V E L O P V I R T U E

>>10878556
He likes his suits that way, don't ask me why.

>>10879379
>>10879358
I'm curious what's wrong with the book or Donovan's thesis. I've never read it myself but when I see the thesis summed up on this board it seems reasonable and not something easily dismissed.

>>10880132
The books thesis is "male bonds is what makes you manly" bc hunter gatherers and soldiers operate in male Only enviroment, disregard women and Only live with your bros.

Thats the thesis, although its lost in the fantasizing that Jack Donovan spends two thirds of the book doing: discussing how Epic win gangs are

>>10880202
That thesis seems pretty intuitive if you've ever been in a frat or sports team.

>>10880207
And thats why the thesis is awful. Not Only does it define manlyness as being part of a gang (In the books terminology) but it serves no other purpose than to tell you to develop male bonds, something Most People already understand.

Sorry för random errors, im phoneposting.

>>10871544
> positive masculine traits such as devotion to work and providing

You people are pure evil

>>10871544
Being against self reliance, emotional stoicism, etc. Makes sense if you’re a cunt who’s gotten everything in life handed to her for having a nice pair of tits and has managed to convince herself that it’s because of her personality everything constantly works out so decently, or if you’re an upper middle class metrosexual who’s life has consisted of looking presentable for mommy while she showers you with love and affection like a good little poodle... otherwise the world is a dog pit and showing the least bit of weakness (especially if you can’t make up for it by spreading your legs and trading your snatch for comfort and security) will get you ripped apart. The worlds full of bastards who will do you in the minute they smell blood or fear.

But apparently these basic instincts for self survival and self respect are toxic... and what’s the alternative? Working hard so I can make my boss lots of money. Perhaps I should let him fuck my wife too, after all who am I to try and inflict my evil male power fantasies on the world. How selfish, how toxic of me! What arrogance men must have to feel the slightest bit of self respect or dignity. Provide for the bitch but that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to the least bit respect or dignity in return. Be a good little cuckhold, modern man! Of course I can always go to the circus, watch the meatheads smash into each other for hundred of thousands of dollars an hour over some flayed pig skin. Some trail virile men there, if we’re lucky they’ll fuck our wives for us too. After all, we’ve freed ourselves from such oppressive social constructions, and if we’ve got a problem we can always have a good cry about it. Sniveling and crying is the new normal after all. And we can all scream and cheer loudly enough to drown out that emptiness in our get. At least for an instant. This is deep masculinity. As deep as getting bent over and fucked in the shower.

But I’m not nearly healthy enough of an individual to embrace such a positive masculinity, which is probably why I’m getting drunk myself again and wishing I had a nosefull of oxycontin.

Grief, rage, denial, are all just stages before acceptance. If we’re lucky our kids will never know the terrible feelings of growing up with all these toxic ideals and hopes. Society has moved on, it’s all shopping malls and feminism, and tinder hookups now, and we’re just the dead weight toxicity that’s too old for our own generation.

>>10876908
What about all those ijncent men who got their life destroyed in the me too movement? Just because they had the nerve to proposition a woman for sex without being sufficiently attractive and charming. Do we just toss them under the rug? Necessary sacrifices for a utopian world order? Or is every case of men saying that your ideology is shit simply due to their lack of education and experience in life, since clearly you know what’s best for everybody.

>>10873889
>>10874498
They could be talking about the mentality that surrounds it. Like the “only losers live with their parents in their 20s” idea.

Reading some of the replies here it's clear that some posters don't get Donovan's book. It's unironically too deep for them. They think it's some self-help nonsense or a manual on how to become "manly", while it's really a radical critique of modern Western societies.
Radical to the point that if you're a bluepilled normie, hypnotized by the neoliberal ideology you will instinctively reject it, like an organism rejects something that is trying to harm it.

Case in point >>10879358
Notice the spooked/bluepilled language ("being alt-right", "my own happyness [sic]" ...) and his inability to look past meaningless trivia.

>>10881311
It's marketed and sold as a self-help book, and his critique is pretty shit tier and flat out wrong. He doesn't understand it because he's a faggot, but a society isn't built on actively scorning the entire female population, ask your grandad.

t. Rose above your retardation by the time I was 16.

>>10881180
t.

>>10869289
Quran

>>10876414
It’s nazi shit.

>>10869289
Starship Troopers, any military manual that you can get ahold of.

>>10869303
Nah, i'm good. Remember that time that women conquered a continent and built a functional society? What was it called? I don't know. Maybe you know, I don't know. Then they invented a buncha shit like hair dye and laser beams and shit. Now excuse me, I have to meet with the other patriarchs and discuss how to oppress women with affirmative action, voting rights, tampons and shit. The usual.

>>10881180
You sound very cynical person. Have you tried to talk with other people, because that worked fairly well with my case.

>>10871544
There is no "toxic" masculinity and "traditional" masculinity dichotomy. There is only masculinity. Any argument that any of its aspects are somehow inherently bad is based on slave morality.

>>10884567
>There is no "toxic" masculinity and "traditional" masculinity
ftfy

>Masculinity

literally can't think of anything more obsolete

>>10874504
ever heard of Oedipus

>>10869289
Yes, goy read about how to be a man by a literal kekistani cocksucker.


Anything important that needs to be written on masculinity was written by Freud anyways.

>praise kek!

>>10869289
Maybe Njáls saga? It's an old text about problems with toxic masculinity.

>>10869289
The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnaYROIzsus

Iron John by Robert Bly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9g-DvM2FRI

No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert Glover

https://yourlisten.com/aceofplace/no-more-mr-nice-guy

The SCUM Manifesto