/lit/ - Literature

Manhunt Unabomber was good shit

>>10795703
cf. Szasz's comments on mental illness being equated with the socially or politically inappropriate

>>10795703
He makes some good points. idk what he was hoping to accomplish by bombing people though, he should have known he was powerless to stop industrial society.

>>10795715
this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Mental_Illness

>>10795703
Oversocialization doesn't exist. Humans are social animals, "oversocialization" is like saying "bees focus too much on producing honey" or "fish like swimming to a dangerous degree." Only a defective human being, one who hurts innocent people for fun, for example, would ever feel this intimidated by social interaction.

>>10795834
not sure if you understand his definition of "oversocialization"

>>10795834
> only people with triple digit IQs can post ITT
You should quit while you're only a few meters behind friendo.

>>10795896
I don't think the Unabomber understood his own definition of "oversocialization"

>>10795703
I wonder what he thinks of Japan.

>>10795834
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM

reexamine your position, m8

>>10795703
he meant you

anyone who is hyper agreeable, unagressive, passive, institutionally oriented and heavily dependent on social interactions to develop skills and a personality. so (You) and most of this board and most 4chan users no matter how much they want to pretend they’re different from normalfags who are all universally oversocialized no matter what class, race or nationality

>>10795718
at least he was brave enough to try

>>10795834
You seem to be oversocialized. See >>10796065

>>10795718
he didn't try to stop industrial society, he did it to send a message and he succeeded

>>10796090
the point of the message was to stop industrial society lol

>>10796054
that was so interesting and creepy

related: documentary on the unabomber

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=141zsgkvv4Y

>>10796113
exactly

>>10796065
OK. But the normalfags are over-over-socialized such that it wraps back around and they appear antisocial

>>10796164
>B-but muh normalfags
Retard

>>10795703
Don't mind me, just posting anther great Kaczynski text
>https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-system-s-neatest-trick

>>10796054
The Calhoun experiment wasn't his definition of over socialization, the experiment demonstrated the constants of tight living conditions and how they effect mices sociability negatively

I DONT UNDERSTAND THE FUCKING POINT OF YOU BRINGING UP THIS FUCKING VIDEO

>>10796267
I think what he means is the mice were "socialized" to the point where their mere proximity to each other became a source of malevolence. but yeah, doesn't seem to fid teddy's theory.

>>10796054
>MUH MICE EXPERIMENTSZSZSSSSSS
Neck yourselves you illiterate moron

>>10795703
you're reading the manifesto of an insane serial killer, are you really expecting to find insightful shit in it? what a brainlet

>>10796267
oh sure when peterson talks about a lobster betabugman have a hissy fit but then some wacko terrorist talks about some mice and he's a genius

>>10796294
>t. mainstream retard

TK is a published, harvard educated mathematician with an IQ of 167.

I bet you haven't even read the manifesto.

>>10796294
I bet you're the type of person that puts black and white labels on people you meet leaving no room for inevitable grey complexities.

Yeah, I bet that's you.

>>10795728
"Mental health treatment is a racket." - me

But I'd be damned if I wasn't "mentally ill". Szasz way overestimates his case. I agree with some of his points but it's a ridiculous direction. Psychiatry was shit when he wrote it, but that's understandable. The brain is just another organ, thousands of times more difficult of course, but there are things that can be done...

>>10796113
>hasn't actually read the manifesto

>>10796299
>TK is a published, harvard educated mathematician with an IQ of 167.

he should have stuck to math he clearly out of his depth with regard to humanities and social science

>>10796333
that was exactly the point though...

>STRATEGY

180. The technophiles are taking us all on an utterly reckless ride into the unknown. Many people understand something of what technological progress is doing to us yet take a passive attitude toward it because they think it is inevitable. But we (FC) don’t think it is inevitable. We think it can be stopped, and we will give here some indications of how to go about stopping it.

181. As we stated in paragraph 166, the two main tasks for the present are to promote social stress and instability in industrial society and to develop and propagate an ideology that opposes technology and the industrial system. When the system becomes sufficiently stressed and unstable, a revolution against technology may be possible. The pattern would be similar to that of the French and Russian Revolutions. French society and Russian society, for several decades prior to their respective revolutions, showed increasing signs of stress and weakness. Meanwhile, ideologies were being developed that offered a new world view that was quite different from the old one. In the Russian case, revolutionaries were actively working to undermine the old order. Then, when the old system was put under sufficient additional stress (by financial crisis in France, by military defeat in Russia) it was swept away by revolution. What we propose is something along the same lines.

I'm turning into a Ted without ability, I've been frustrated in every aspect of my life, my only desire is to get a wholesome wife, retire into the wilderness for the rest of our days and have many wild children
cognition was a mistake

>>10796341
so he's proposing dropping everyone's standard of living to afghanistan levels for ... what exactly is his problem again? yeah im sure a lot of people are gonna sign up for that

>>10796338

>>10796325
>its just another organ
yes and like all organs it behaves in unpredictable ways and is only understandable with relation to the whole body and the whole ecology it evolved within and exists within. since we don’t understand any of that to a degree necessary to talk about it like a combustion engine, its pretty stupid to tell people you can spray their brains with happy powder and fix semantically indeterminate state’s like schizophrenia

>>10796345
>what exactly is his problem again?
>read the manifesto

>>10796348
yo lets smash all technology and go back to a neolithic standard of living bro! i'm a smart math guy! this will totally work! except when the cambodians tried it two million people died! but i can do math!

>>10796341
Whoops, I must have forgotten that part. I mostly remember him describing a cabal of revolutionaries that would have to form and ignite the revolution when a breaking point presented itself. Which, for all we know, could be formed out there already, waiting for its chance.

>>10796354
the more subtle (not really) point is that our society is fucked. The system has reached a level where it is out of the control of the common individual, which leads to purposelessness and depression

This is undeniable. Look at how unhappy the world is collectively.

>>10796354
ted and others like him wanted to kill off 90+% of the world population, most people dying would be preferable to ecocide and an unbearable state of being

>>10796345
You should really read the manifesto, but you do point out a problem I had with it. Namely, that the idea of discarding modern industrial/technological society only appeals to those who are already severely unhappy in society. Which, outside of 4chan, is not the majority, I feel.

>>10796360
yeah he defined those as the smarties, the intelligentsia if you will. He believed revolutions weren't led by the majority, but a select leadership minority

>>10796367
>some people are unhappy
>lets discard all technology so we can all be unhappy in dirt huts

why are you taking a murders manifesto seriously like it's actually something not retarded? my twisted world is sooo much better, it at least has literary merit, not a c-tier anarchist polemic like this crap

>>10796367
>Which, outside of 4chan, is not the majority

oh, the braindead idiots. yeah.

>>10796373
>privileged white professor believes he should be in charge of restructuring society and cure all of society's ill if only he can be dictator

wow that's unique its not like every campus on the planet doesn't have a couple of those left over from the 70s

>>10796350
First of all, fuck off. I can tell you have no idea how psychiatry works.

I am literally one of those people who they spray with "happy powder". First, there is no "happy powder" and they do not try and tell you there is. They do not act nor try to get the patient to believe that all there problems will be gone. They test one med, ask about symptoms and let you talk about your input, whether or not you thought it was working, etc. If not, they try another one.

Sometimes you get one that doesn't sit well with your brain (I have had bizarre episodes with one). You stop that one, then they look at what type it was and they avoid chemically similar ones.

God damn, by your reasoning we should have scrapped the idea of cars because they are dangerous. Instead, we invented seatbelts, airbags, and power steering and breaking and other improvements. No, they do not realize how it works... yet! That's why we do this dance, to get better every time we try.

>>10796379
There were plenty of famous murderers (and normal by cultural standards) that weren't idiots throughout history. Like kings and crusaders for example. Most of history actually. You fucking bourgeois leftist retard

>>10796386
privilieged white men are behind almost everything of importance in the past 500 years

A page from Kaczynski's 1967 doctoral dissertation. What a shame to have been without LaTeX back then. Of course K himself would bemoan advancement...

>>10796392
>failed academic turned small time terrorist
>king

yeah ok the first step in machiavelli is to get a principality, and you don't do that by hiding in the woods, kys

>>10796379
First off, slow your roll, pal. I never said I completely endorsed the manifesto, just that you really should read it before you write off its ideas ( a novel thought, I know!).

Second, he gives his justification for the murders in the manifesto. He says that, given the 'information overload' the modern individual is subjected to via the barrage of media he experiences, it would be impossible for someone to introduce a new idea and not have it get instantly drowned out. Which is fair, given that we're talking about him and his ideas right now, and I for one probably wouldn't have read his manifesto without it being 'THE unabomber manifesto.'

>>10796395
>everything of importance to white men*

>>10796395
being a professor has to be the lowest risk lowest effort job for someone of privilege, sorry, if you're a professor you just don't have what it takes

>>10796403
how was he a failed academic? he was published 6 times and left university life on his own accord. once he had enough money to go into the woods, he did.

and king is just one example you myopic turd burglar

ppl murdered and conquered, it wasnt no thang

>>10796386
>decentralized society
>dictators existing

pick one

>>10796419
>myopic turd burglar
what did anon mean by this

>>10796407
you should read khieu samphon's doctoral thesis before you write of the khmer rouge!

>>10796421
maybe you find this trash interesting because you haven't taken the time to read the most basic anarchist texts or interact with any

>>10796407
good point anon

>>10796427
Why is this hyperbole so popular among people who feel they can discuss a topic without knowing shit about it?

>>10795703
>>10795714
>>10795834
>>10796341
>>10796350

It has occurred to me that not everyone knows enough about Ted's background and how he even wound up in such a threatening position.
He was insane my societal standards no doubt although his reasoning for doing what he did was justified in his mind based on allegations/predictions, if you will, of the future and how our technologically driven world has become on a personal, spiritual, and, thus, societal level.
Watch this documentary and you will understand why he did what he did.
Crazy fuck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr5M6oEx2j4

>>10796448
the khmer rouge had a similar plan, empty out the cities, kill all the "intelligentsia", go back to subsistence farming, millions of people died but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea, i mean samphon had a phd from the sarbon, clearly he was a very smart man! we need to revisit his ideas

>>10795834
unabomber btfo mic drop thread over, u bugmen can keep talking to yourselves i'm out

>>10796065
I'm pretty sure if he meant virtually everyone in modern society, he wouldn't have started his description with
>Some people

>>10796457
the pseuds who think this shit is insightful need to go the fuck back

>>10796468
I find it so weird to see people saying bugmen lately. I thought that was an MPC thing

>>10796476
watch the documentary brainlet then get back to me

>>10795834

>>10796494
we now have history channel watching pleblets on /lit/, next you'll be posting about hitlers occult practices and a hidden chamber in the great pyramid, kys

>>10796504
you're so right... let me delete my post

i read a collection of his writings a while back and found his observations generally agreeable and prescient but his conclusions basically extreme

he's pretty cool as a fringe philosopher but he shouldn't have hurt them people. someone would have published him and got his ideas proper distribution, but now look at him, rotted his whole life away in a prison. waste of a great mind, waste of a life, not to mention the innocent professors he maimed and killed.

>>10796504
Hitler did practice occult rites and Himmler was a rabid occultist. The Pyramids do have secret chambers in them

>be an autist who can't get girls
>start killing people

Many such cases! Sad!

>>10796729
spot on, me too.
I don't have the determination and capacity to go kill people, but the anger is there, every morning i wake up and every evening i go to sleep.

>>10795714
I couldn't stand the actor they chose for Ted. The FBI looked more like the real Ted than that skinny hobo

>>10795718
>idk what he was hoping to accomplish by bombing people though

Well he has us talking about him still doesn't he

>>10795703
"Oversocialised" is a euphamism for "effeminate" or "feminised." He self-censored his theory of self-censorship so as not to appear to be a misogynist, oh the irony.

>>10795834
Woman detected

__________

Biographies
__________

>Adolf Hitler - Youth (Age 0 - 25)
http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/86086584/

>Adolf Hitler - First World War (Age 25 - 29)
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/134340484/

>Adolf Hitler - Rise to Power (Age 29 - 43)
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/150760491/

>Joseph Goebbels
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/142878351

>Rudolf Hess
http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/152757392/

>Ted Kaczynski
http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/154963372/

>Timothy McVeigh
http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/118541028/

>Anders Breivik
http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/87875112/

>H.P. Lovecraft
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/141773539

>William Cottrell
https://desuarchive.org/r9k/thread/30930679

>Adam Lanza
https://desuarchive.org/r9k/thread/24985710/

>Christopher Thomas Knight
http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/122023099/

>Christopher McCandless
http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/122167113/

>Christopher Harper-Mercer
https://4archive.org/board/r9k/thread/31293613

>Bill Hicks
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/128627797/

>Dylann Roof
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/139008559/

__________

Books
__________

>Julius Evola - Ride The Tiger
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/147654247

__________

Kaczynski appeals to arguments in some areas that are noteworthy; I sympathize with his criticisms of capitalism and industry being antagonistic to the psyche of individuals, and the moral detriments that capitalist realism places in ethics and value.
Kaczynski has serious misconceptions about basic human psychology that are prevalent in the book and many of his arguments appeal solely to intuitionism, regardless of whether he occasionally makes the mark.

His metaethics are weak as well. He tries to argue that morality and ethical action are derivative of social obligation, which most ethicists would not assent to. Consideration and previous values weigh in considerably to future action, and the value we place on things (ideals, individuals, future chain of events) is what leads to to our choices. In a way, Kaczynski alludes to this in how he defines morality as being a form of obligation, but his presuppositions and conceptualization of this is very off the mark.

>>10797035
>Capitalism realism
Stopped reading. American commies need to be thrown in the gulags.

his work is good, it's a shame that hippy, civilised beta scum like Zerzan have tried to appropriate his work


Nature is war, and War is nature, and that's a good thing

Do we have to do this in every thread? Just read Ellul.

>>10796065
4chan seems like the complete opposite of his definition of oversocialised people. People here hate absolutely everything and won't hesitate to shit on something without justifying it. Doesn't seem to fit into his definition at all.
Reddit on the other hand seems like a good example since whenever people express an idea of "hate" they always make sure to make it mild (unless the community permits), thus they never express their hate to its full degree.

I just don't know rn, I've read him, mcluhan, Virilio and I just don't know yet

It seems there's some "better to not have been" in his system, but instead of existence, it's about technological society.

Tech society creates evil, it also creates good, but I'm not sure what's "better", it seems like history seems to favour tech on this front.

But tech is unstable, all shit humans make is unstable, hell, any complex enough structure has an increasing chance if collapsiing from randomness and disorder, the larger it gets.


To agree or disagree with ted... I feel like I just don't know enough.

Teddy Boy did nothing wrong.

Unfortunately though, as he said, the only way to overcome the problems that beset the human race is for the solution to occur unanimously. I really can't conceive of anything other than a global nuclear holocaust. So until then I make sick bank programming computers and manipulating the machines to do my bidding.

>>10797520
>implying the machines are doing your bidding and not the other way around

>>10796354
>yo lets smash all technology and go back to a neolithic standard of living bro!
Just read the fucking manifesto

>>10796350
>semantically indeterminate state’s like schizophrenia
Haha mate I don’t think that you’ve known someone with schizophrenia or even actually met one. The fragmentation of the brain that occurs in the condition is far more profound then a state of ‘semantically indeterminatcy’. You’re so ill informed is laughable. My friend is schizo; during her worst episodes she believed that everyone she knew was spying on her through her computer; that her parents had sold her genetic makeup for profit; that her kitchen was gassed and that she died, only come back in body (not soul); and that (no joke) she was turning into a brow cow. Not to mention the constant state of anxiety and paranoia; totally impulsive and dangerous behaviour; and the totally emphatic belief that there was absolutely nothing wrong or illogical about the way she was thinking. The conduction causes her nothing but suffering and after every episode she becomes ever more fragmented and damaged.

>>10797557
I get it but I have to support my family somehow and computers are one of the few things I really am adept at.

>>10795933
>I wonder what he thinks of Japan.

Japan is like the purest example of a Western society gone to shit because of technology

>>10797583

Sure, but that doesn't mean that schizophrenia is a well defined phenomenon.

My background is biology, but a number of similar cases exist there. I'll use sepsis as an example.

Sepsis, like schizophrenia is a poorly semantically defined condition. We can identify things as being sepsis insofar as that is an intelligent grouping that helps our treatment and management of it as a condition, therefore it is defined in a pragmatic sense.

However, also like pschizophrena, sepsis is an extremely heterogeneous condition, so different in its internal workings as to make the definition functionally useless from a scientific perspective. It is borderline impossible to group cases by any other criteria than broad treatment criteria because we simply do not understand the inner workings of the condition well enough, and we lack the data to split cases up using any meaningful metric. By this logic you can see how to a psychiatrist or psychologist, identifying a case of pschizophrenia is easy, but that definition tells you nothing about the underlying neural or social causes, it just tells you that this person should be medically treated as pschizophrena as that is what is most likely to bring about a medically preferable outcome

>download his manifesto expecting an incoherent mess
>it's actually a rock-solid philosophical text

wtf I hate technology now

>>10795718
The only chance we had to stop the conclusion of industrial society was global thermonuclear warfare.

>>10798182
well he was very smart, being a very good mathematician

>>10796191
Get off this board, normie.

>>10796379
Brainlet tier reply

>>10796065
nah he meant you

>>10796067
Word

>>10796652
Actually true and a good point

>>10797022
sweet deal brotha

>>10795703
He still denies being the Unabomber though.

>>10797520
a pandemic would also work, or if the crops died or we didn't have enough Brawndo to satisfy the crop's cravings

>>10798764
net energy cliff

>>10797520
Even the widest possible nuclear war wouldn't really set us back. We would still have billions of people alive.

>>10798764
Wouldn't work.

>>10798840
most would die from the fallout

>>10795718
I think that he was smart enough that he knew that his actions would have little to no effect other than mild hysteria in the public, but he figured it was worth a shot. He already realized the world was going to bulldoze over him, he really had nothing to lose, and even a slim chance of igniting some sort of revolution would have been better than nothing at all.

>>10795834
I agree, privacy is a myth, we should be around humans 24/7 and know every intricacy of everyones lives, oversocialization doesnt exist guys

>>10798840
Wrong.

i´ve seen a surge of interest over this guy lately. i wonder why

>>10798874
because he's right

>>10799194
Because he was correct

>>10796391
>by your reasoning we should have scrapped the idea of cars because they are dangerous.
No! Not the noble car! Whatever would we do in a world where there existed closely knit communities and aesthetically pleasing cities and towns instead of smog and traffic accidents?

>>10795718
He explains this in paragraph 96 of the Manifesto.

>As for our constitutional rights, consider for
example that of freedom of the press. We certainly don’t mean to knock that right; it is very important tool for limiting concentration of political power and for keeping those who do have political power in line by publicly exposing any misbehavior on their part. But freedom of the
press is of very little use to the average citizen as an individual. The mass media are mostly under the control of large organizations that are integrated into the system. Anyone who has a little money can have something printed,
or can distribute it on the Internet or in some such
way, but what he has to say will be swamped by the vast volume of material put out by the media, hence it will have no practical effect. To make an impression on society with words is therefore almost impossible for most individuals
and small groups. Take us (FC) for example. If we
had never done anything violent and had submitted the present writings to a publisher, they probably would not have been accepted. If they had been been accepted and published, they probably would not have attracted many
readers, because it’s more fun to watch the entertainment put out by the media than to read a sober essay. Even if these writings had had many readers, most of these readers would soon have forgotten what they had read as their minds were flooded by the mass of material to which the media expose them. In order to get our message before the public with some chance of making a lasting impression, we’ve had to kill people.

So yes, his violence has ensured that his philosophy is discussed to this day. I do think it's ironic how the proliferation of technology has made it easier to access fringe views (i.e. militant, violent neo-luddism).

>>10799398
Fucking copy pasto

>As for our constitutional rights, consider for example that of freedom of the press. We certainly don’t mean to knock that right; it is very important tool for limiting concentration of political power and for keeping those who do have political power in line by publicly exposing any misbehavior on their part. But freedom of the press is of very little use to the average citizen as an individual. The mass media are mostly under the control of large organizations that are integrated into the system. Anyone who has a little money can have something printed, or can distribute it on the Internet or in some such
way, but what he has to say will be swamped by the vast volume of material put out by the media, hence it will have no practical effect. To make an impression on society with words is therefore almost impossible for most individuals
and small groups. Take us (FC) for example. If we had never done anything violent and had submitted the present writings to a publisher, they probably would not have been accepted. If they had been been accepted and published, they probably would not have attracted many readers, because it’s more fun to watch the entertainment put out by the media than to read a sober essay. Even if these writings had had many readers, most of these readers would soon have forgotten what they had read as their minds were flooded by the mass of material to which the media expose them. In order to get our message before the public with some chance of making a lasting impression, we’ve had to kill people.

>>10795703
I understand from the context that it means something similar to Freuds "super-ego". Some kind of structure of the self that's constructed from the internalization of cultural conventions and their moral qualities.
He states that, in a way similar to the functioning of the super-ego, the more you give or adjust yourself to the moral code of your society, the more the super-ego "asks from you", In other words, the bigger the compromise the bigger the exigence. And this works like a vicious circle.
Haven't managed to read his manifesto, it's fucking chaotic mess of value judgements and unfounded assertions. It seemed some kind of badly written Walden.
My english sucks-

>>10795703
Goonan's ideas are superior and should be read by anyone who liked Kaczynski.

>>10797310
This, Ted was heavily influenced by Ellul and The Technological Society is a much more in-depth exploration of the problems with technique than ISAIF.

>>10797310
>>10799662
Ellul sucks. Fuck off.

>>10799662
but does Ellul have succulent chinese memes about oversocialized Leftists, i dont think so

>>10799667
Ellul is boring but is highly intelligent and makes salient points which are pertinent to the study of techne

>>10799667
>>10799671
Hey now, I'm not suggesting Ted's not worth reading, but anyone serious about anti-tech who hasn't read Ellul is a psued and should kill themselves.

He meant that standards to achieve moral goodness(that are meant to insure prosperity and happiness) can themselves cause mental-stress and harm through them not being compatible with human nature. Questioning the morality of morality basically.

His views on the impact of the technological revolution upon human happiness were generally sound, but I can't have any respect for a man who's willing to kill innocent people. I also found his rants about left-wingers a bit childish, and I say that as a right-winger. For a similar critique of the role of technology in modem society and the harm it causes, I'd recommend Jung. He advocates taking responsibility for your own life and making a conscious decision to return to a more natural mode of being, rather than launching a terrorist campaign that was always doomed to achieve precisely nothing.

>>10795930
>>10795834
Animals can't suffer psychological pathologies. Oversocialization happens as a result of inadequate adaptation to a flawed mental structure of society, one that is particularly characteristic of (post)industrial, (post)modern western society

>>10799771
>Animals can't suffer psychological pathologies
what kind of memery is this. They have brains too anon

>>10795703
Went from chad to mad lad. Dude coulda slayed

>>10799793
brain =/= mind

>>10799868
yeah but the two are clearly related, that's why psych problems are treated partially with drugs that influence your brain's neurotransmitters. It's not like a tiger or whatever doesn't have dopamine and serotonin

>>10799876
I don't think we disagree, what I'm saying is that >>10795834 is wrong when making that comparison

All (or most?) animals are social, to a bigger or lesser extent. The difference is us being conscious. A bee or fish will act according to their nature and narrow window of basic behavior, but its not the case for us. We have a big genetic and biological predetermination but we can develop mental pathologies independently of that. "Oversocialization" is the result of an expanding complexity of human relations, to an extent that was impossible for most of human existence, and which is characteristic of the (post)industrial, (post)modern west

>>10799928
> A bee or fish will act according to their nature and narrow window of basic behavior, but its not the case for us. We have a big genetic and biological predetermination but we can develop mental pathologies independently of that.
This doesn't make any fucking sense you retard.

>>10799928
>We have a big genetic and biological predetermination but we can develop mental pathologies independently of that
This sounds extremely spooky and mystical to me. Do you mean that we create technology and things like that? Because our brains are remarkably similar to other mammals, and our behavior is not really that different either. The main difference is language and our tool-making.

Neither of those are necessarily tied to consciousness in any case because nobody has ever come up with even a vaguely plausible theory of what consciousness is or how we could know if animals are conscious.

>>10799934
yes it does faggot

>>10799935
the small genetic differences between many animals and us make up for a huge cognitive contrast. And hey idk if the psyche has a metaphysical origin or if it's purely neurological but it's there and it sure isn't there for non humans (yea I know about dolphins and monkeys and elephants but I mean something that's not negligible in comparison)

>>10799970
>And hey idk if the psyche has a metaphysical origin or if it's purely neurological but it's there and it sure isn't there for non humans
Why do you think this though? The only thing in our psyche that they don't have is the language and probably the level of abstract thought. They have emotions, they have concepts of individuals, they have pain and pleasure, etc.

I don't see how that is not a psyche, you can call it a less sophisticated one if you want, but barring some kind of 'God gave humans souls' answer the difference must not be that great.

>>10799975
maybe it seems like im trying to downplay or not admit a deeper level of animal intelligence but it's not that. I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist to have clear definitions of mental categories and elements that make it up and others that don't, but generally I think it's safe to say that we have moved forward in the process of self awareness, meaning making and abstract thought much more than other animals, and it's something that probably increases exponentially, deepening the complexity of our minds and what they can encompass

>>10800011
I do appreciate that, and humans are clearly extremely different than other animals, it would be dumb to argue otherwise.

I guess where I differ is that I see the mind, soul, whatever as being mostly perception, emotion, and things like that, with only a small component of higher thinking. I realize that these higher levels of thinking influence everything in the lower levels of perception, because consciousness is a holistic thing experienced all at once, but I can't see why an animal wouldn't have an experience very much like the experience we have when we aren't engaged in actual thought but just sort of existing instinctually in some envionment, or the experience of children or people on certain drugs.

Especially when you consider that one of the main themes among for example mystics of all cultures is the emphasis on the ultimate nature of consciousness being a sort of empty unity, a pure being without divisions.

>>10800036
the mind is kind of regarded as something beyond impulses, drives and pulsions. >>10799525 This is oversocialization, I think the origin of it and a disturbed super-ego is in that inadequacy coming from a very abnormal kind of society, which never existed before, and which is particular only to humans

I agree with you really, I think it's a matter of the terms we are using

im kinda tired now so im going to bed, it was a nice talk (sorry for sounding retarded sometimes)

>>10796354
Your making yourself look like a fool. Read the manifesto and realize its much deeper than that.

>>10795834
oversocialization != social interaction. Not that hard to understand. When a disproportionate amount of mental resources are being taken up by adhering to more or less arbitrary social rules that act as a low-pass filter for given interactions, that's over-socialization. These rules may also themselves contribute to pathology beyond their confining nature if they are unsound in some way, which seems likely given their inflexibility in an environment that changes by the year b/c technology.

All these things make it harder and harder to quality social interaction to occur.

>>10796408
well yeah, I'm a white guy so why the fuck would you even think I'd give a shit about what's important to non-whites? And why is it of concern to you what whites think is important, why can't you have your own agency? Stop co-opting white systems and make your own dipshit.

>>10797520
All that is required is the will, the force, and the men with which to apply them.
It's about time a new great man reared his head and plunged the world into turmoil

OP here, thanks for the contribution folks.

Based on your contributions and a closer reading of the manifesto, I would like to put it into my own words.

Oversocialization:
>The oversocialized person is the person that is subjugated to so many societal rules (we're talking of the moral type here) that any actual deviation from those rules (say, in the form of aggression or violence, when those two things are not accepted by society) results in feelings of guilt. If these persons DO NOT outright physically deviate from these societal rules, but instead choose to obey them (knowing on some level that these are restricting their beliefs and nature, and thereby deviating from these rules in thought), they will experience feelings of depression and powerlessness.

As Kaczynski says,

>the oversocialized person is kept on a psychological leash and spends his life running on rails that society has laid down for him.

The psychological leash must be broken, the train of prescribed morality must be derailed in order for those feelings of guilt, depression, and powerlessness in the oversocialized person to be dissolved.

>>10795703
Unabomber? That guy was a real jerk

>>10795703
His manifesto was a mixed bag for me.

The part before the oversocialization bordered on him just calling everyone a cuck. He basically just goes "yeah people only relate to those less fortunate because they see themselves as equally weak, so if you're even remotely socially conscientious it's because you're a huge insecure turbonerd" and that's his fucking argument.

From there on out (basically from where your quote starts onward I think) I liked it, although he dipped back into his previous antics a couple times. I liked how he got into affirmative action and the idea that these sorts of programs are built just to white-ify minorities and prescribe middle class values onto them, but again, he slips into this generalized notion of aid inherently being for the sake of prescribing value, as though by feeding a starving man I'm prescribing some kind of full-stomach ideology onto him. And he'll always end on "but not all leftists," because he doesn't want to make a general comment on them, lest he rope in fringe lefties, but it's still pretty clear he means almost all "charitable people" which isn't a much better generalization to make.

>>10797022
>anything below Ted being even remotely interesting
>nazis even being remotely in line with his ideals
This is what I really hate about Ted. His actions made the "smart people are always disgusted with society" meme gain more traction than it needed. Now retards reverse it around into "if I act disgusted with society, I must be smart" and go shoot up schools as tribute to their self-image.