/lit/ - Literature

>>10770935
>patriarchy how are you still around
>why is the only way for a man to be a manly man is to have sex with lots of women

>>10770935
At least he's published, unlike you

>>10770975
>That shirt
Do people put these on and think they’re going to get a chuckle? He looks 35, you should be dressing like a grown-up by now.

>>10770935
>Meet Oh-Diss-E-Us

>>10770935
>Odysseus has sex with like a ton of girls but he's going to kill Penelope if she's not faithful?
I mean, that's not a bad point.

>So basically, Odysseus is a Slytherin

>>10770935
I hate this man. anyone else find it weird how a grown male knows how to write books that get inside teen girls heads?

>>10771149
yeah its kinda creepy right

>>10771112
Yeah Odysseus is kind of a dick in general.

>>10771112
>Using critical theory to make a surface level observation that ancient Greece was a patriarchal society with values which are completely backwards from the present day
How fucking insightful! Let's give him a Pulitzer Prize!

>>10771112
Odysseus did it to survive.

>>10770935
Why do I have a hunch that his wife rode the cock carousel hard before she meet him?

>>10771201
Why did this post come so late? Why didn't people think about it earlier?

>>10771112
Penelope is dependent on Odysseus in natural contract under which she is to remain faithful

>>10771201
Penelope also might have had to fuck to survive.

>>10770935
The Odyssey is actually a good example of a book that has aged very poorly

It doesn't have anything to offer a modern mind, it is guilty of all those faults and is completely incompatible with modern life

In short, yeah, poetry becomes outdated, so what? you should be reading current stuff anyways, it's not like something is good just because some ancient guy wrote it and other ancient guys continued to pass it down to other guys and so on ad infinitum

>>10771112
Fucking other girls increases the sexual value of a man in the eyes of his woman.
Bitches love to see their man is pimpin', ayo.

>>10771213
but she didn't fuck, and yet she survives

>>10770935

From the youtube comments:

>So basically Odysseus is a Slytherin.

>>10771268

>>10770935
>addressing patriarchy directly like he is in a polemic with it
>tumblr-tier rhetorical demeanour
>zero actual critical merit from the literary standpoint
yfw you realise he's actually grooming a future generation of literary critics in America that will finish college, go work over at huffpost and nyt and review his books.
>>10771219
t. John Green

>>10771219
decent bait, made me angry for a sec

>>10771263
To be honest she seems like the type to give a handy, so a bukkakke for the bachelors isn’t unimaginable

>>10771219
While this is obviously bait, what is the origin of this kind of egocentric literary criticism? The idea that a book must be immediately relevant to me in this time and place, otherwise it has no merit.

>>10771290
>>10771311
not bait

my little sister tried to read the Odyssey and she became so discouraged with it that she couldn't even finish it. She asked why all of the women were just objects or subplots for the men and had to do everything that the men told them to. I tried to explain to her that that's how it was back then, that men were really bad and bigoted but she didn't seem all that reassured. She said she'd rather read something that didn't make her feel like a secondary sex and could actually show her something useful about life, not just a masculinity power trip fantasy novel

tldr; actual girls need literature that they can identify with and be edified by and The Odyssey doesn't provide them that

It's just that now that more women have been allowed to be in positions of authority in academia and literature that we are beginning to see challenges to works like the Odyssey to see if they actually have any enduring merit that appeals to all races, sexes, and genders rather than just one: white males

thankfully my little sister continued to pursue her interest in literature (with a bit of guidance from me) and she has come to adore Toni Morrison, Margaret Atwood, Jhumpa Lahiri, and Virginia Woolf among others

>>10771311
Post-structuralism.

>>10771330
And you think this is a good thing?
The dissolution and emancipation of western culture and civilisation is not a thing to applaud, you waste of skin. Perhaps you will see the truth when your city has degenerated into a gynarchic, raceless mass of filth, just like your culture.

>>10771330
Teaching women to read was a mistake.

>>10771330
>she'd rather read something that didn't make her feel like a secondary sex
Why does she CHOOSE to feel this way? Homer is dead. She's not reading angry facebook messages. Nobody is bullying her for being a girl. The book cant point a finger at her and laugh. She just cant get over herself.

>and could actually show her something useful about life
>>approaching literature with the presumtion that its only purpose is to be an instruction manual
Naïve

>>10771330
At least she didn’t read pandora or the shit Aristotle had to say

>>10771330
Maybe some bitches shouldn't be reading yo. She could see it as a tale of loyalty and family believing in its unity in the face of adversity, of a man facing numerous perils to find his way back to his woman, the strength and wisdom of Penelope, a son brought up in values that are eternal. Instead she sees some superficial shit.

>>10771330
>tldr; actual girls need literature that they can identify with and be edified by
No we don’t, your sister is just a pussy

>>10771411
post your hairless and trim legs

>>10771330
>Implying modern literature by women and for women is better

As someone who read Twilight and 50 Shades in order to know what's the hype and spent autistic amounts of time reading female written feminist porn, I can say that their portrayal of women is far worse than that of the Odyssey.
In these modern books, heroines have zero modicum of will. Everything happens to them; they do not act willfully at all. Even in homosexual pornography, a beloved genre of feminist women, the main hero (an adolescent boy locked up in a dungeon, btw) is an absolutely passive entity who submits to everyone and everything and never tries to do anything for himself, which reflects how women view themselves. This is profoundly insulting to every being with a shred of intelligence, because this kind of narrrative takes away the drive and will from a person. In this respect, contemporary female literature - written by feminist women, remember - portrays women as absolute objects upon whom everyone else impresses their will.
Now let's take Odysseus. Despite the patriarchy, Penelope actually has more agency than the heroines of contemporary fiction. She resisted the suitors and remained faithful, which shows that she has integrity and a force of will. In a modern retelling, the suitors would simply plow her, she would do nothing, and when Odysseus returns she'll act like nothing happened, Maybe her role as a housewife is outdated, but Penelope still is a better example for women than the countless brainless and willess heroines of contemporary literature who mistake sassiness and bitchiness for strength and will.
And you completely forgot about the role of goddesses in the book. Who helps Odysseus in the book? You hardly see anything like that in modern literature.

>>10771330
>tfw gay and get a queer delicious pleasure out of reading things where I’m depicted as monstrous, pathetic, predatory or abominable...
Women need to give in and submit to their masochistic yearnings... indulge in self-hatred... empty empowerment only goes so far without abasement and shame to reignite it’s prizes...

>>10771353
>>10771369
this is just proof that, when challenged, you have no actual reason for why The Odyssey should be considered a landmark work. I have yet to hear one argument for why you think it is so profound. Can you even articulate a reason?

>>10771382
but that's not what it's about at all. you lack perspective and try to dismiss legitimate criticism from another sex as "superficial"

>>10771411
no, but she is sensitive and probably a far better girl than you

>>10771430
>Despite the patriarchy, Penelope actually has more agency than the heroines of contemporary fiction. She resisted the suitors and remained faithful, which shows that she has integrity and a force of will.
while Odysseus plows woman after woman..

>In a modern retelling, the suitors would simply plow her, she would do nothing, and when Odysseus returns she'll act like nothing happened
so, just what Odysseus did

>And you completely forgot about the role of goddesses in the book
who spends most of the time as a man

see what I mean?

>>10771438
>this is just proof that, when challenged, you have no actual reason for why The Odyssey should be considered a landmark work. I have yet to hear one argument for why you think it is so profound. Can you even articulate a reason?

are you a retard? It influenced pretty much every piece of art as we know it today. Kickstarted the hero's journey. It's beautiful simply as a piece of poetry...

Pretty much every major Greek philosopher used The Odyssey story as a way to reference situations and help the listener relate. Safe to say we wouldn't have philosophy as we know it today without The Odyssey.

I mean, seriously? You come onto a board about literature and say
>you have no actual reason for why The Odyssey should be considered a landmark work. I have yet to hear one argument for why you think it is so profound.

Get your tiny head out of your gaping asshole, you braindead imbecile.

>>10771121
Best

>>10771449
>It influenced pretty much every piece of art as we know it today
no and why would that be a good thing? Have we not gone over the contents of the book? Why would you want that sort of undeveloped, one-sided patriarchal influence to be ubiquitous or see that as a good thing?

>Pretty much every major Greek philosopher used The Odyssey story as a way to reference situations and help the listener relate
oh, you mean those guys who said that women and slaves don't have souls, who believed in Ideal Forms and immortal souls?

>Safe to say we wouldn't have philosophy as we know it today without The Odyssey.
and philosophy of today has done what exactly? It's a defunct derelict of the struggle between Theism and Secular Humanism that has lead itself into an impotent homeostasis, being rendered completely and finally irrelevant by modern sciences and technologies

>the rest
once again, nothing but vapid insults

>>10771438
Why should I care about whether something appeals to teenage girls? They prefer one direction to brahms, should we scrap all the orchestras?
It's possible your imaginary sister may grow out of her solipsism, Homer will be there waiting for her

>>10771466
>no and why would that be a good thing? Have we not gone over the contents of the book? Why would you want that sort of undeveloped, one-sided patriarchal influence to be ubiquitous or see that as a good thing?
where were you taught about literature? were you not taught about learning stuff within the context of history?

>oh, you mean those guys who said that women and slaves don't have souls, who believed in Ideal Forms and immortal souls?
Again, context. Not to mention that Ancient Greece treated women a hell of a lot better than any other civilization at the time.
>Ideal Forms
That was just Plato, and it's pretty well established that only he believed in that theory.
>Immortal Souls
No more retarded than any other religion that ever existed. Far from a reason to dismiss an entire work.

>and philosophy of today has done what exactly? It's a defunct derelict of the struggle between Theism and Secular Humanism that has lead itself into an impotent homeostasis, being rendered completely and finally irrelevant by modern sciences and technologies
You're an idiot. Like a massive idiot. Modern science today would simply not exist without ancient philosophy and thus The Odyssey. In ancient times, the science of contemplation and the natural sciences were part of the same noble pursuit.
>technologies
AI, which is arguably the future of technology, is nothing without philosophy (which again, probably wouldn't be around without the Odyssey)

I make true points and you reply
>nothing but vapid insults
Whereas all your points have been pulled out of said gaping asshole and meant nothing. It's also very clear that you have no real grasp of philosophy and your exposure to the Odyssey is probably some half-hearted attempt at reading the introduction before throwing it out because it made your vagina cry.

>>10771438
You're not that smart lad are you?

>>10770935

>be me
>be edglord mcedgy 14 years old
>talk to an old classics scholar about why I don't like Odysseus
>"but muh he was cheating on poor Penelope, he's not a hero!"
>old man looks at me from the gray arcane depth of his wisdom
>"but Penelope was also a bitch."
>dismiss the old man as stoopid
>years later at university attend Odyssey class
>professor reveals that the dream sequence of Penelope where the geese are killed actually show her being sorry for the suitors
>Penelope enjoyed being courted and probably had sex with all of them
>professor says this would have been normal, historically
>professor also says Odysseus had no right to kill anyone after twenty years of absence, and that that's the reason why he has to offer sacrifices after killing them (purification)
>nobody is good in the Odyssey
>old man was right all along
>mfw

>>10770935
reading the comments:
>someone makes a valid point that his reading is skewed towards modern social movements
>passive aggressive comment that suggest "oh no john should never have mentioned sexism because all the sexist freaks are descending"
>some actual good points by people who know their shit more than him
>"who else is here so they don't have to study?!"

>>10771538
IT'S ALMOST AS IF THE MORAL MESSAGE OF THE ODYSSEY IS UNCLEAR AND UP FOR ACADEMIC DEBATE

>>10771001
The Mountain Goats is a band.

>>10771330
>not bait

>>10771219
>you should be reading current stuff anyways
This gave you away the most

>>10771219
>zero capitalization
>It doesn't have anything to offer a modern mind
>poetry becomes outdated
>you should be reading current stuff anyway
>>10771330
>this book is bad because it doesn't appeal to everyone
>my little sister's shallow opinions on classic works of literature matter
>>10771438
> I have yet to hear one argument for why you think it is so profound. Can you even articulate a reason?
>>10771466
>denying the Oddyesy's influence
>all ancient Greece philosophers are bad because muh patriarchy and their religious beliefs
>all philosophy is bad because I only understand two basic conflicting philosophical concepts and that those concepts have been around for a while
>philosophy is rendered irrelevant by technology and science
This is either one of the best pieces of bait I've ever seen or a sign that this place has become too mainstream. I'd immediately assume the latter but I can't imagine any autist or /pol/tard going on for this long and putting to much effort into writing this.

>>10771647
*the former
Fucking hell, I think your writing ability has rubbed off on me.

>>10771219
>The Odyssey is actually a good example of a book that has aged very poorly
The Odyssey is a classic precisely because it has stood the test of time for thousands of years and influenced millions of books and authors that came after it.

Books that address the human condition such as The Odyssey cannot "age poorly" simply because it speaks to all humans. Just because it doesn't endorse flash pan political movements run by Amy Schumer and the #MeToo trend doesn't mean its outdated.

>>10771330
>my little sister only identifies with female characters
Your sister is a cunt.

People should be able to identify with the protagonist regardless of their race or gender. I was able to identify with the plight of Gilgamesh despite being a white, non-binary, genderqueer.

>>10771466
Think of any book or movie that contains a hero's journey. Anything from Dante's Inferno, Paradise Lost, or The Lord of the Rings, to The Wizard of Oz, and Harry Potter. These wouldn't exist without The Odyssey.

Are you really this dumb?

>>10771219
>>10771268
>>10771273
>>10771330

This thread is now officially our Spengler and Hyperreactionary literature General thread.

Anyone have recommendations outside the Decline of the West and assorted Evola?

>>10771725
>identifying with characters

>>10771330

>need literature that they can identify

Agreed: I was completely incapable of identifying with Odysseus, as I am neither a good navigator or warrior. I thought Kafka was pointless, since I have never worked in an office, and none of the great Russians matter - how am I to understand them when I am not an orthodox christian, nor am living under the rule of the emperor? Don't even get me started on Shakespeare - I cannot identify with a single one of his characters. In the words of a poet that I cannot identify with because I didn't live in the belle epoque and interwar years, "I am no prince Hamlet" - I simply cannot identify with a prince. I cannot identify with Rupi Kaur because I am not a brown woman living in America, I cannot identify with Harry Potter because I am not a wizard, I cannot identify with any of the fin-de-siecle french authors because I don't drink absinthe.

And as we all know, great literature, and art in general, is about reflection of the self. Seeing yourself in other contexts. If it isn't about you, whatever could it be about? Everything is about me, otherwise it is meaningless.

Do you even realize that you're being a huge misogynist? The Odyssey, among other things, is about devotion, dedication, self-mastery, overcoming terrible adversities through will and wit, and you're saying those themes cannot be grasped by a woman's mind? Nice Schopenhauerian attitude.

>>10771300
Subtle

>>10771794
I must (You) this

>>10771219
People like you belong in gas chambers

>>10771468
why would they bother with "serious" literature when that consists of books that revel in ideas and plots and characters that demean them?

>>10771537
that's not much of a substantial comment is it?

>>10771725
>>10771794
It's not about identifying with specific characters you brainlets, it's about a type of literature that is extremely hostile to any who do not look like the ones who wrote it

it amazes me the misogynistic and uniformed, mono-minded responses that I have received in this thread. Really showcases the blind adherence to norms that only were established and survived due to the paradigm that has dominated for centuries but is now changing (thankfully)

for the first time you are hearing and having to deal with people who don't want to play by your "boys" rules and you all act exactly like reluctant, angry little boys who don't want to allow others in because you are either just outright prejudiced or afraid that they might call out that your precious emperors have no clothes

The Odyssey has no place in the modern mind or society and it's not a sad thing to see it go

>>10771330
Tell her to grow a pair

>tfw secretly enjoying the bait, and looking forward to reading pissed off replies
You know, he's actually making an effort, like the old days, when trolling actually meant something

>>10771973
>who do not look like the ones who wrote it
But homer was a black woman

>>10771973
nice bait

>>10771984
This

>>10770935
This man writes stories for children and women - why do you care about what he has to say? You think those children/women he's appealing to actually give a fuck about the Odyssey? Just ignore him; he's trash.

>>10770935
Maybe I just wasn't paying attention while reading the Odyssey, but save for Calypso, I don't recall Odysseus sleeping with any other woman. Was the woman plowing just implied by virtue of it just being the Greeks?

>>10771973
>The Odyssey has no place in the modern mind or society and it's not a sad thing to see it go
Something something Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World.

>>10771330
>men were really bad and bigoted
>tldr;
This post has got to be a bait straight from the fedora land. However, assuming for a second that this is a real, unironic post and that you aren't a degenerate fedora faggot, I have to say that you're doing a grievous disservice to your sister by choosing the most lazy and lowbrow approach. So she faced something she didn't understand, and something that seems to have been unpleasant, and your solutions is to tell her that 'men were bad back then', use the trash-tier language of modern faux intelligentsia (bigotry, women allowed in positions of authority, white males) and reinforce her prejudices, which is completely opposite to what should be taught to a young person if one wants them to acquire understanding of the world. You culminate it by offering her second-tier authors that she "can identify with" and relate to.

So this hypothetical you, as I'm still convinced you're just trolling, is taking the sensless approach of a dumb, unaware person effectively hijacking her still-developing psyche. If you were at least slightly wise, you'd try to highlight the importance of her having to experience the Odyssey for its artistic and historical value. Or fuck, underline the role of Penelope in the epic, contrast the brutality of those mythical times both for women and men. Reading so that you feel """comfy""" and """relatable""" is the first step to becoming a stupid midbrow fuck. Next thing you know and she's suddenly into John Green and NYT bestsellers.
If you're not a troll and wrote that unironically , and don't want your sister to become you, then you should encourage her to read the classics, especially if she's not comfortable with them. She's obviously been poisoned by the comfiness disease, but it shouldn't be irreversible. Just stop feeding her total bullshit and encourage her to get on a genuine level of understanding.

>>10770935
>starting with the Odyssey

>>10771973

>It's not about identifying with specific characters you brainlets, it's about a type of literature that is extremely hostile to any who do not look like the ones who wrote it

No, it's about "appeal" according to you, and the appeal of the Odyssey vis-a-vis devotion, dedication, self-mastery, etc. is apparently not available to women, blacks, asians and queers - they simply cannot identify with it.

Whatever. But since we're shifting the goalpost, and it is no longer about not being able to identify with the text but rather needing texts to not be hostile to you, go ahead and tell me how the Odyssey is downright hostile to women. Give me examples enough to counteract the fact that Odysseus is lead, helped, and only prevails, due to the interference of a female goddess. Give me enough examples to detract from the cleverness of Penelope. And tell me why, if you believe it, the text is not hostile to straight white males, despite the fact that the white male suitors are all drunken, disgusting degenerates.

>>10771984

I know. It's almost socratic.

>>10771112
>implying Odysseus wanted to fuck either Circe or Calypso

>>10771330
вretty good вait

>>10771984
> my sister
Yeah it’s so genius, only you could have seen through it

>>10771750
read spengler's nachlass, might of the west lawrence brown. recently there has been a very worthwhile release of a minor collection of franics parker yockey's writings

universal literacy was a mistake

>>10771538
>old man looks at me from the gray arcane depth of his wisdom
>"but Penelope was also a bitch."

>>10772141
>implying he didn't fuck nausicaa by the river like the chad he is

>>10771205
Did you read Ulysses?

>>10770935
As much as I agree with disregarding oddisey's promiscuity, there is no reason to even imply that penelope should whore herself out.

>>10770935
>thumbs up if he made your homework for you XDDDD

So this is the enlightened Gen Z people tell me about.

>>10770935
>tfw he is published and I'm not

>>10771592
Point still stands

>>10772128
I cant bother arguing with some indoctrinated, immature /pol/-tard. Why dont you actually read it yourself and see first hand that Odysseus is openly hostile towards women, Penelope is a shallow mess of a character, and that man and the masculine experience are placed at the center of the universe.
Ball's in your court, brainlet.

>>10771268
I fucking hate what Harry Potter has done to the world. These people (who are now full grown adults, mind you) think that by having read seven children's books, they have any right to speak about literature.

>>10772014
I believe he also gets it on with Circe. Regardless, he stays with Calypso for like years iirc.

>>10773212
>Penelope is a shallow mess of a character
Oh boy and you were doing so well

>>10771205
From what I remember based on previous lit threads about this guy:
>he met his wife in college
>wife rejects him
>becomes famous author
>reconnects with wife
>they get married
I think he told his fans that he was a whiny crybaby or something when he first met her so she didn't like him but then he grew up. I think he has a point but I don't exactly know how his wife improved over the last few years to merit his own affection back. It's very odd, it's like his wife was a prize or a judge of his self-worth, or maybe he was afraid to approach younger/more successful women once he got big.

>>10773212
Is there a single work of serious literature written before 1940s that doesn't trigger your sensibilities?

>>10773449
Le Communix Manefesto, by Karl E. Marx. Other than that, no, because all authors are Dead White Guys, except for Karl E. Marx, and hes a jew, and what greater joy is there than Jews taking your money, fuck off back to /pol/

>>10773464
Trying too hard.

>>10771201

>Odysseus did it to survive.

He executed all the girls who slept with suitors, and would have done the same for penelope. Was that survival, anon?

>>10773542
preservation of honor

>>10773542
The girls didn’t need to sleep with the suitors to survive, as evidenced by the fact that many of them did not sleep with the suitors and still survived. Odysseus was dealing with goddesses.

>>10773574

>odysseus the original school shooter

>>10773594

Do you have actual proof they were not pressured in any way?

>>10773667
>suitor slaughterer

>>10771149
JK Rowling was a grown women that did essentially the same with Harry Potter. At least the main characters of John Greene books are the same gender as the author. Girls fall in love with the guys John Greene writes about, it doesn't mean he's writing about teenage girls, except from the perspective of a boy in love with his Mary Sue Manic Pixie Dream Girl crush of the book who always gets subverted somehow by the end so he can get his obligatory gushing "YA novel with a twist" reviews

What's really creepy about Greene is how he thinks Augustus fucking Waters is in any way an acceptable name for an actual human being

>>10771411
I mean, she's his little sister dude, so, yeah. Also, can you blame girls for not wanting to read story where they are basically only the villains, slaves, sex slaves, subjects of imminent rape, actual raped, literal trophies...put yourself in their shoes, the book has nothing to offer them besides being part of the Western canon, which is VALUABLE, of course that's valuable, but that doesn't mean they're going to enjoy reading it. It's like being mad that Germans don't like reading Roman histories of how barbaric and uncivilized ancient Germans were.

>>10773906
boo hoo
toughen up buttercup the world doesn't exist to cater to your fancy

>>10773906

This is stupid. It is either bait or sincere: in both cases, Athena looks down on you, with derision, disdain and disgust.

>>10771411
tits or gtfo

>>10771330
physical pain wow gj man

>>10771255
This but unironically

>>10771973
>it's about a type of literature that is extremely hostile to any who do not look like the ones who wrote it
That's not the case and I can dare you that lot of the called non-white people had found insghtful values with the read of The Odissey. You are just not used to read at all or maybe you have some cognitive deficiency.

>tfw argos dies after odysseus

>>10772141
This. Children never read the book.

>>10773771
As I recall Odysseus asked people who had been there which girls were doing it, don’t you think those people would’ve mentioned that they were raped if that was what happened? It was heavily implied if not outright stated that the girls were doing it out of their own free will.

>>10773906
Actually, nobody ever liked Tacitus' Germania as much as 19th Century Germans did.

The Greeks were obviously very concerned about writing deeply flawed characters
The Odyssey is not categorized as a tragedy by modern day society but this kind of overlap is quite important to note I'd say

>>10773273
Odysseus was raped by Calypso by any modern western legal standard.

>>10771180
>thinks this observation was made with critical theory
this board is for educated folks only

>>10771330
>putting Atwood in the same group as Morrison
>putting Morrison in the same group as Woolf
Atwood is mediocre and has a tin ear for prose. Morrison is good but very limited in her range and influence. Woolf is the most influential modernist excluding Joyce. The only thing these three have in common is that they write about women's issues, and you should feel bad comparing them or implying that they're of similar/equal value.

>>10770935
Surprised this got replies because he's obviously a tumblr SJW cuck.

>>10771330

I never understood anyone that though Odysseus was a player cause he slept with a couple of magical harlots. Circe turned Odysseus' crew into pigs and Odysseus had no reason to believe she wouldn't do the same to him. If the genders were reversed people would be crying about how Circe raped Odysseus. Calypso kept Odysseus on her island even though he spent all his spare time crying about not being with Penelope until Athena told Calypso she had to let him go. Once again reverse the genders and everyone would cry about Odysseus' rape.

>>10775301
He doesn't care, he's obviously just trying to provoke the /r9k/ "women don't deserve literacy reeeeeee" crowd.
But if he were writing earnest then I'd agree completely.

>>10771750
chill out with a little Junger sometime

>>10771431
they do its called good looking women having sex, they let men play-rape them in bed

>>10771330
It's an honour to see a master such as yourself at work, sir.
The rest of you lads, just watch and learn from this man.

>>10771538
I trust you have grown up by now to know your old, wizened professor's interpretation is just as dumb as John Green's and the master baiters' in this thread.

>>10771330
admirable work m8

>>10776003
No shit. Really makes me want to kick John Greens face in.

>>10776003

>I never understood anyone

I think It rests on a fairly common assumption that men have agency in a very radical sense. On this assumption, whenever men do things, they do it out of their own will and could have done otherwise. This assumption is heavily ingrained in pretty much all of western culture, and the cases you mention of scolding Odysseus for promiscuity showcase some of its more ridiculous consequences. Indeed, why didn't Odysseus just swim back to Ithaca? He is a man and master of the universe, is he not?

This common assumption is what's at stake in the cases where it seems very plausible that there would be obvious hypocrisy if you flipped the genders. The flip-side of considering men as some sort of Sartrean radically free hyper-agents, is often that you go too far in the other direction with women, and consider them unduly passive and free from most responsibility. It's honestly a shitshow all around.

>>10771330

>saying bait is not bait actually works

Genius in simplicity.

>>10776473
Or maybe you should just read the fucking story and enjoy it.

>>10771330
>refuses to understand a text because she can't identfy with it
Hell, i like the Odyssey, but i sure as hell don't identify with it. This doesn't mean i can't extract and interpret things from it that builds my worldview and refreshes my mind and soul.

Sounds like you and your sister are close-minded and a bit dim, if you are unable to abstract from the concrete realities the text portrays.

>>10771411
L O N D O N
O
N
D
O
N

I JUST GOT BAITED TWICE IN ONE THREAD

>>10771466
based baitposter

>>10770935
>>10770975
when did steve albini become such a little bitch nigga

>>10771430
>the main hero (an adolescent boy locked up in a dungeon, btw) is an absolutely passive entity who submits to everyone and everything and never tries to do anything for himself
s-source

>crash course literature

Every video should be 5 seconds long with John Green saying "read the fucking book".

>>10773273

Yeah, fuck Odysseus right? I mean, John Green could probably spend 7 fucking years on an island with a supernatural being who literally won't let him leave. Lets see John Green sail across the sea with a fucking ocean god chasing him. We all know Green would ditch his wife in a heartbeat to be Calypso's little bitch boy.

>>10770935
God fucking damnit, the mods FINALLY fucking exist to do something, and delete the thread of comics starting with one making fun of John Green after I spend 2 fucking hours making this edit. Well, anyway, since this is the most relevant to it, I'm gonna post it here anyway.

>>10777659
>reading old books without extensive background in modern, academically reputable commentary and analysis on them
Fuck off back to /pol/.

>>10771973
So called "misogyny" is actually good you fag.

>>10771411
>your sister is just a pussy
no shit, she's a girl

>>10771592
Yeah, a garbage pseud band.

>>10771750
Guenon is good for spirituality, Eliade is great as well.

>>10771330
And you think it's okay to see the death of literature because of oversensitive people like you sis? That is okay to see people reeeing for stuff that isen't even happening to themselfs in their own time, but like, thousands of years ago? Aslo, this >...back then, that men were really bad and bigoted... is a lie and anarchronical as fuck. And you can see this by your sis being >didn't seem all that reassured . Basicaly you think is okay for people to be fucking self-centered buttholes and may turn illeterate because they read something that hurts their feels?
Fuck. I always taught that Hyperion was being overly dramatic with their "death of literature', but fuck, everyday I think is closer to reality!

>>10771330
>She asked why all of the women were just objects or subplots for the men and had to do everything that the men told them to.
If this somehow isn't bait, this is pretty much confirmation that she didn't read the Odyssey and just watched a youtube video about the Odyssey made by someone else who watched a youtube video about it, made by someone who read the wikipedia synopsis.
Most female characters in the Odyssey are powerful and Odysseus is constantly enslaved by them or otherwise forced to do their will, if he's helped by them it's made explicit that he was in their power and they chose to do so.

>>10778327
This post 100%. Also Penelope is a good actual strong character. That's why she has her own fucking sub plot the book cuts back to.

>>10778327
Something slightly relevant is the stories of Snorri about the Norwegian kings, you'd think the society was patriarchal and to a certain degree it was. At the same time there's powerful women like the mother of kings and princes taking initiative and coming up with ideas, and when you read about romance it sometimes seems like a femdom fantasy.

>>10771121
no hessa ravenclow

>>10778398
>the book
god i want to gut you

>>10770935
>Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story of a man who lets all his shipmates die, lies to everyone he meets, cheats on his wife with assorted nymphs and takes 10 years to complete a voyage that, according to Google Maps, should have taken 2 weeks
Basically how I felt when I read it

>>10775021
>their own free will.

Except the Greeks of the heroic era lacked the concept of free will as you have used it here. Everyone's actions are influenced by a more powerful entity, if you read the Iliad and left with the opinion that everyone is personally responsible for their actions, then you haven't read the Iliad. As the sons of the leading families in Ithaca they had vastly more power than girls whose only purpose in life is to please men.

Not to mention the lugubrious accommodations which the suitors obtained lulled them into a false sense of security, and impeded the otherwise natural result, that the strongest would simply have seized the throne by force, as big O himself would have done given the opportunity. Not all of Odysseus's despicable actions were motivated by survival instinct, it was he who incited the army to riot and forced Agememnon's hand at Aulis, he never lost a chance to advance himself in glory, he would sacrifice every last man (and did) to get his way. Craft, ambition, and success on the battlefield do not make a good king, he robbed his country of its best sons, twice, to acclaim.

>>10778895
>good King
cuck

>>10771330
No offence to your sister, but she really has to get over it. I read a lot of books that are "misogynist" because the ideas they contain are significant. If you're a girl, or black or gay (this is a little more debatable) you have to accept a certain degree of sexism, racism etc. in older works. There's nothing you can do about it, and it doesn't make the work less worthy of pursuing.
>actual girls need literature that they can identify with and be edified by and The Odyssey doesn't provide them that
This is bullshit. I've been reading classics since I was very young (my parents are pretty /lit/) and differences in gender, social standing etc. don't make the characters impossible to identify with because they're tackling universal human issues.

>>10778895
not the anon you're arguing with but
>implying craft, ambition or SUCCESS don't make a good king
They're not fundamental to that, but you do know that the guy was basically their most skilled strategist and the second most skilled rhetorician, behind Nestor I think. He had a huge power over the masses and knew how to use it properly, as a result they won because of him. If there was anybody there who deserved to be a king it would have been Ulysses.

>>10772141
He would have killed himself if he didn't want to

>>10770935
This is your brain on culteral marxism

I never paid much attention to him and after seeing their video on Aquinas I never will. People that put themselves out there as an authority on things they don't know anything about really piss me off.

I had not planned on returning to this thread due to the overt, hyper-negative comments I and my views garnered as well as the apparent futility in of all attempts to communicate said position. Nevertheless there are a few points that I feel compelled to respond to. And I am still unconvinced that The Odyssey is anything other than what I said it was to begin with, for I have yet to see any coherent or compelling argument to the contrary in this thread

now, firstly, to posts such as:
>>10772456
>>10774407
>>10776448
>>10776477
I can assure you: this is not bait. The fact that so many have tried to dismiss my position by calling it bait proves that this website is, for the most part, an echo chamber of hyper-masculinity that is totally unwilling to even entertain a dialogue with its opposition

secondly, I do not appreciate the aggressive and, quite frankly, obscenely inappropriate comments such as
>>10771981
>>10771725
>>10776900
about my little sister. No, she is not dim, nor is she weak or deserving of being called such names. It is revolting to see such blatant misogyny on display and un-condemned. shame on everyone in this thread complicit with this sort of behavior! My little sister is a far more beautiful, humane, and intelligent human being than any of the trolls in this thread

>>10778303
but it won't be the "death of literature", only the death of that literature which is so steeped in out-dated modes of sociology that it is rendered obsolete

>>10772048
>I have to say that you're doing a grievous disservice to your sister by choosing the most lazy and lowbrow approach
>You culminate it by offering her second-tier authors that she "can identify with" and relate to.
I can assure you, my little sister is far from lazy or lowbrow, nor does she read "second-tier" authors. She adores Ulysses and actually was the reason why I ended up pushing through it so as to discuss it with her. Along with Joyce she enjoys many of the modernists and postmodernists and is more than capable of understanding a variety of literature

>>10778960
>but she really has to get over it. I read a lot of books that are "misogynist" because the ideas they contain are significant. If you're a girl, or black or gay (this is a little more debatable) you have to accept a certain degree of sexism, racism etc. in older works
I am amazed that you are proposing a passive submission to misogynistic elements in literature

>There's nothing you can do about it, and it doesn't make the work less worthy of pursuing.
Oh, but there are things that one can do about it and it does make the work less worthy of pursuit

>>10777730
absolutely disgusting

>>10778327
All of the female characters submit to domineering male characters and are grossly one-dimensional. Calypso holds power of Odysseus...until Zeus (read: masculinity personified) commands her to let him go, and of course she complies. The book is full of such examples

The Odyssey remains, at its core, a very problematic work

>>10779394

You're an autistic fuck responding to everybody like this

>>10779394
>I am amazed that you are proposing a passive submission to misogynistic elements in literature
I really hope you're just a troll. It's not passive submission, just an acceptance of how things were in the past. I can identify with men because they're having human experiences. It's no different for men from the current era being able to identify with men from previous eras when they were socialised totally differently. The human condition is universal. It's not about being weak etc. just realistic.
>Oh, but there are things that one can do about it and it does make the work less worthy of pursuit
You're a fucking retard. What can you do about the western canon being from different eras that had different social mores, and if you seriously think your view on things makes one lick of difference compared to the greats of western thought you're insufferably arrogant as well as a moron.

>>10779051

Name one benefit the island of Ithaca received from his kingship. What success did they reap?

>>10779416
Not autistic. Just schizophrenic.

>>10779394
>No, she is not dim, nor is she weak or deserving of being called such names. It is revolting to see such blatant misogyny on display and un-condemned. shame on everyone in this thread complicit with this sort of behavior!

nigga either you one of them steampunk nerds or this is fake
i guess bitchmade fools might talk like this too tho

John Green is right. We aren't reading the story in 500BC we are reading it in 2018. Anyone here claiming to try to respect the original views are liars because its impossible.

>>10770975
Terrible shirt, lit opinion on the Odyssey and pic in general, but the mountain goats are a great band

>>10779394

You have yet to tell anyone in this thread how the Odyssey is hostile to women. If it is so blatant, mentioning a single name and a single reason wouldn't really be that taxing.

I have no idea how your bait keeps working. It's mind-numbing.

>>10779394

>I can assure you: this is not bait.

You madman, it cannot keep working.

>>10779585

Eternal glory.

and shitloads of touristbux for generations to come.

>>10770975
>soyboys taking The Mountain Goats
No fuck you.

>>10771330
We need white Sharia law

>>10779706

I always knew Ody to be a sellout

>>10770935
Keep 'em cucked, John!

>Athena, goddess of wisdom, stands up against the other gods who all think Odysseus should be punished
>without Athena's help Odysseus would have died out at sea being butt fucked by monsters
>in an act of mercy, Athena even disguises herself as an old begger and gives the suiters a chance to save themselves before Odysseus comes back
WAAAH WHERE ARE DA STRONG WYMIN?!

>>10770975
You're actually defending him kek

>>10771112
>it doesnt fit to my modern feminist views

Yep, different times, different values. Women are cunts, anyway.

>>10771973
>why would they bother with "serious" literature when that consists of books that revel in ideas and plots and characters that demean them?
Because all works of fiction by men portray other men as infallible heroes with god-like physiques and unwavering convictions, amirite? No sympathetic male character in a book written by a man has ever lied, or harmed another person, or displayed cowardice, or was anything but a perfect Übermensch in general and has never ever displayed any moral failing of any kind because otherwise they couldn't be sympathetic.

>>10771330
absolute madman

>>10779585
His kingship years aren't even described and you know that. Yet one can see he had crapton of talent for aforementioned reasons.

>>10771330
>the Odyssey is about Odysseus
Well, you're imaginary sister isn't going to win any prizes with that.

>>10779272
I really don't want to give someone that fucks up Homer this bad any attention, but kinda curious- what did he make of Aquinas?

>>10779394

>>10770935
>>10771330
>>10771438
>>10771466
>>10771973
>>10779394

OP is one of the only people that keeps me (a little) humble.

Even though I know it isn't the best way to go through life, I pretty much think everyone is considerably dumber than me or, at most, as smart. I have never met anyone that I believe to be smarter.

OP, along with a few other great writers, sets the bar incredibly high. It keeps me grounded. I'm sure all the genius mathematicians are slightly smarter too but I don't engage with their abilities so I don't care.

>>10781241
Your pic of a mocking negro makes me wish there was a decent english to pidgin translator I could just feed bait posts through and repost.

>>10779394
Dude, your sister sounds cool. I kind of want to undress her and finger her clitty from behind while pinching her nipple and sliding my cock inside her unexplored vagina and maker her call me Daddy.

this thread keeps getting better and better

>>10781184

He makes the same stupid objections and misunderstandings that most atheists on the internet do. He tries to say that the arguments don't prove the existence of a Christian God, which is technically true because at this point Aquinas is only concerned with whether a God exists. Later on in question 3 of the Summa Aquinas will start to argue why it's the Christian God but apparently the Greens didn't make it that far in the seminal work of the philosopher they're making a video on.

He also confuses an accidental causal series which would go back in time with what Aquinas is really arguing for which is an essentially ordered causal series that would happen in the same moment. And most annoyingly of all, he informs his viewers that Aquinas believes everything must have a cause, which of course makes his arguments self refuting. The only problem is that isn't what Aquinas believes at all. Richard Dawkins made that same mistake in the God Delusion. They couldn't even get the first premise correct.

>>10771330
>thankfully my little sister continued to pursue her interest in literature (with a bit of guidance from me) and she has come to adore Toni Morrison, Margaret Atwood, Jhumpa Lahiri, and Virginia Woolf among others
ANOOOON I LOVE THIS POST IT'S SO FUNNY!

>Penelope of the fair cheeks
Face cheeks or ass cheeks?

>>10781518
Second grade humor but it still made me laugh, anon.

>>10781529
It's actually a pretty fair question given that we're discussing the Greeks here. They loved both asses and dirty jokes.

>>10779394
Still bait. If it wasn't bait you'd address the posts asking why we should consider solipsist post modernism as the only way to approach texts. I'm sure you can construct an argument that homer is problematic, but you haven't bothered to explain why that argument is a valid one

>>10781529
what but I seriously want to know that, wasn't trying to be funny
glad that make you quack though

>>10779131
maybe if he was a worthless NEET faggot with nothing to go home to, no child to hand down his legecy, no wife to greet after 20 long years, no kingdom to rule, no throne to reclaim.

He a little more to live for than most of the sour grapes virgins on this website with nothing to their name but a computer, a soft plump body and an endless supply of worthless opinions.

>>10772141
Exactly this, thank you.

>>10770947
fpbp

>>10771908
as if you actually give a shit about that old book

>>10781879

As if people dont?

>>10771151
I always and still suspect that he's a closet pedophliolilio and might as well be grooming some poor teen with small breasts right now.

>>10783243
>small breasts
not a pedo then; he's an Hebephile

>>10780008
Athena is a masculine goddess even if female, I heard ancient Greeks would even compliment women in this way: "She is like a man!".

>>10771330
>>10771973

hey, dude. i can't say i agree with you wholeheartedly, but i can understand where you and your sister are coming from and just wanted to say i wish you'd been met with a healthier discussion here.

my response to you is that i absolutely understand your sister feeling discouraged and understand that experiencing a work of art produced by a culture that would have treated you as subservient can be very uncomfortable.

on instinct, where i feel like a line has to be drawn is this sentiment:
>The Odyssey has no place in the modern mind or society and it's not a sad thing to see it go

that's a little scary to me. i can see examples of what you're talking about in art like "birth of a nation," which was produced with the specific intent to do what you're talking about, but i don't know how i feel about abandoning the study of art that made huge contributions (such as the iliad / odyssey, which nearly invented western lit) because the society that produced them had some aspects that we consider somewhat backwards.

at any rate, glad your sister stayed with it and sorry for the general backlash you got.

>>10770947
because we're just shaved monkeys
consider this:
1/ women want him
2/ men want to be him
3/ ????
4/ profit

compare to the opposite:
1/ men want her and can't have her so they hate her
2/ women would like to be like her so they hate her
3/ ????
4/ everybody dies

>>10771255
+1

>>10770975
the mountain goats is like neutral milk hotel for people who were dropped as babies

>>10771219
It had nothing to offer the "modern mind" back then either. The "modern" has always been the rabble. This has never changed and it never will.

>>10771430
quality post
no homo

>>10783275

Wow, it's almost as if the Greeks had some sort of complex understanding of sex and gender, and didn't outright classify the female as passive and male as active, but rather understood that the passive and the active was present in both sexes, and that both sexes were capable of great things, and that negative character traits weren't intrinsically linked with the female, and that saying Athena was a "masculine" goddess in order to support the point that the Greeks were misogynist pigs almost actually presupposes that the masculine is the positive in order to show that this is the case, thus exemplifying the very patriarchal attitude it was trying to accuse the Greeks of.

Really, truly made me think.

>>10777671
I dig this

>>10771112
>implying you had DNA tests back then

think fucking moron

>>10771001
>you should be dressing like a grown-up by now
People can wear whatever the fuck they want, you no-fun-allowed cunt.

>>10771330
This would have been considered terrible b8 with no replies two years ago

>>10784120
no-fun is the new fun
kids these days i swear

>>10784295
this
i hate getting old

>>10779394
your a complete faggot your one of the people that would hover around penelope for 20 years hoping to get laid only to get killed by a real man, your sister is probably going to kill herself when she realizes that she is related to such a pathetic piece of putrid trash

>>10784399
tell him like it is

>>10770935
Is this the guy that hates Aristotle?

>>10785074

He's a leftist so of course he does.

>>10785226
Why is the left so retarded?

>>10785730
haha idk man it's not like the majority of all the top scientists, philosophers, and mathematicians for the past 200 years were leftists or anything lmao. i mean, it's not like the majority of all current PhD holders are leftists or that almost all college educated and high income professionals are on the left haha. but those stupid leftists amirite? :))

>>10785840
>>10785730
>>10785226
>>>/pol/

>>10785840
200 years ago you could say the same thing about Christianity. It's a religion m8

>>10785840

How can one person be this booty blasted over such a small comment

>>10771180
> Points out that what other people say, though correct, is obvious, and therefore somehow trite
> does it in the snarkiest, most glibly smugly pretentiously dickishly erudite way possible

>>10785730
because retardation was an ideological framework to ensnare, detain and medicate leftists.

t. wokey wokerson

>>10771330
fucking kill yourself

>>10771330
You're a good brother

angry anons will be angry

>>10784295
Good times make weak bait
bad times make strong bait

>>10770947 >>10771019 >>10771121 >>10771149 >>10771151 >>10771180 >>10771201 >>10771205 >>10771206 >>10771211 >>10771213 >>10771255 >>10771263 >>10771268 >>10771273 >>10771282 >>10771290
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>>10774195 >>10774204 >>10774407 >>10774655 >>10774691 >>10775021 >>10775190 >>10775223 >>10775301 >>10775307 >>10775988 >>10776003 >>10776199 >>10776372 >>10776408 >>10776448 >>10776454 >>10776477 >>10776478 >>10776900 >>10777120 >>10777193 >>10777269 >>10777659 >>10777671 >>10777673 >>10777730 >>10777752 >>10778303 >>10778327 >>10778398 >>10778743 >>10778903 >>10778960 >>10779051 >>10779131 >>10779137 >>10779272 >>10779416 >>10779443 >>10779630 >>10779642 >>10779692 >>10779698 >>10779706 >>10779751 >>10779854 >>10779868 >>10779936 >>10780008 >>10780207 >>10780218 >>10780538 >>10780602 >>10781164 >>10781181 >>10781184 >>10781241 >>10781255 >>10781260 >>10781369 >>10781380 >>10781465 >>10781485 >>10781518 >>10781610 >>10781720 >>10781784 >>10781809 >>10781879 >>10783158 >>10783243 >>10783462

>>10786122
i have become death destroyer of worlds

>>10786122

>>10786122
what did he mean by this?

>>10773930
>yeah it exists to cater to mine
lmao you're a retard

epic thread

>>10779698
just watch him

>>10773446
Really? Holy shit

>>10770935
Lisistrata was actually funny to Greeks because it showed women in power

>>10771330

bump

>>10785840
The fact that the academia has been overrun by marxists leftists doesnt mean shit.

Yes right wingers For the most part are dumber than leftists. Not all cretins are conservatives but most cretins are conservatives.

Doesnt change the fact that leftists are still completely wrong on just about everything.

>>10787696
Also it was written almost 400 years after the Odyssey
>existed back then

>>10771794
criminally underrated

>>10785840
>>10789215
>Yes right wingers For the most part are dumber than leftists.
Right wing people have literally been proven to have higher IQ.
>inb4 muh IQ is mainingless
Not that it's a very interesting piece of information, but anyway it's >>>/pol/

>>10771794
love it

>>10789728

>Study shows that Conservatives have more high IQ members in their party
>Suddenly studies don't matter
Libtards ignoring facts as usual

>>10790757
>libshits: WE'RE THE SIDE OF SCIENCE!
>normies: What about biology?
>libshits: F-FUCK YOU, NAZI!

>>10790757
Source?

>>10790757
>Ignores climate science
>Ignores evidences that gun control does reduce gun violence
>Votes for retarded protectionists policies
>Gets all of his racial "facts" from /pol/ and r*ddit
>FUGGGING LIBRULS IGNORING FACTS REEEEE

>>10771438
>no, but she is sensitive and probably a far better girl than you
wew lad, you really gonna say that about mlady?

>>10790818
>racial "facts"
It ALWAYS has to be "you r-racist!!" with you people. The state of "intellectuals."

>>10790834
>REEEEE STOP DISAGREEING WITH ME

>>10779394
>My little sister is a far more beautiful, humane, and intelligent human being than any of the trolls in this thread
I'm sure the trolls are devastated.

>>10771112
Not really. The problem was questionable paternity. A man (reasonably) isn't into giving his resources to a kid that isn't his, and there weren't any paternity tests back then.

>>10779394
You seem to be under the misapprehension that misogyny isn't justified. A woman's sexual freedom exists in direct opposition to a man's. This isn't a question of fairness, it's a question of power.

>>10790818
Try again, retardio. And this is by state and using the Brady score which accounts for the origin of the gun.

Also, when compared with OECD countries, and once we take out the outlier (USA) there is no correlation between gun ownership and gun related crime.

Everyone in this thread deserves to be executed

What if instead of supporting female chastity or female roastity, we start supporting male chastity together with female chastity?

>>10791685
>we start supporting male chastity
by "we" you mean "women" right? Because they're the ones who shame virgins.

>>10791210
ther it is

>>10791719
Lol

>>10791719
I wonder if you guys get all your information from youtube or something desu. I don't blame you either, it's an easy mistake to make.

>>10790818
Gun control does not reduce violence in general (which is the main point, who fucking cares if you are mauled by a hammer or a gun), it doesn't even reduce gun violence.
All the hot spots of gun violence are in gun control zones (Mexico, Brazil, ...) Even inside the US, crime and even gun crime happens in gun control zones like Philadelphia, District of Columbia, Chicago, ...
t. UK, we got royally fucked over and now they even want us to get a life, bin that knife

The rest of your post is about as retarded. I bet you think blacks are statistically more violent because of poverty or systematic racism.

>>10791685
Women chastity is valued because it is men doing the evaluation. Men chastity is not because it's women doing the evaluation.
If women valued chastity, then men would try or pretend to be virgins. If men didn't care about female chastity, women would not check or pretend to check their sexuality.

>>10791795
BASED

>>10791265
>>10791782
https://www.google.it/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2018/3/2/17050610/guns-shootings-studies-rand-charts-maps
Evidence says otherwise sweeties.
>The rest of your post is about as retarded
Ah yes, I can see why a conservatard would think the future of the planet and of economy are "retarded" issues.

>>10792359
>sweetie
This is the most cringe shit

>>10773906
I kno this is /lit/ but do you ever watch TV? The Simpsons, probably the most popular show off all time, depicts men as dumb, drunk, fat, problematic, etc etc. Who's the most upstanding guy in that show? That pussy Ned Flanders? Meanwhile the women portrayed as sensible and intelligent, and Marge is the bedrock that family. Point is, that show is amazingly hilarious to guys anyway cause our identity isn't wrapped up in some story arc. I don't take my entire instructions for life from a single story.

So yes, I can sit back and blame the little sister for being a little bit too sensitive. I'm not expecting her to read 100% smut and women degradation, but every now and then if you can't stomach something that doesn't stroke your ego, than there's something wrong with you.

Regardless if it doesn't give her any favorable instruction, doesn't it at least give her insight into the way a guy thinks? Is that knowledge alone not good enough if you're looking for something to take away? It's like finding the other teams playbook.

>>10792359
Should've known you're on /lit/ and someone was gonna read that.
>“I don’t want to claim a general truth from this yet,” Morral said. “There’s been so little research that we’re really at the mercy of a few studies."
What does that chart say anyway?

But for real tho, I've lived in Texas and Chicago, the two extreme ends of the gun solution, and I can tell you first hand Texas has a better handle on the situation.
Here's the main difference: it's not control, it's culture.
In Texas my friend's were happy to show me their shotguns, "assault" rifles, etc and we thought nothing more than holy shit those will be fun at the range, or great for hunting, etc. In Chicago I have friends who claim they have guns but never showed them because they keep them locked away only for self protection (as if a midnight robber will agree to let you get you gun first).
In Texas if you hear a gunshot, you think "damn someone's eating good tonight". In Chicago, you think "shit get inside".

In Texas they love their tools. In Chicago they fear them.

Also related, Texas is just a more amicable place to live. You hold doors open for people 5 steps behind, you tell the person who called the wrong number to have a good day, you say hi on the elevator. You respect that everyone is a human with hopes and dreams and feelings like you.
In Chicago it's almost like drones walking by trying not to interact too much. I'm pretty sure I could drop my pants and shit on a crowded sidewalk and people will just walk by trying not to get involved.
Who are you more likely to shoot? A friendly stranger, or basically an unmasked stormtrooper?

>>10783553
top post

>>10783553
What do I need to read to be able to formulate my points like this?

>>10791210
What do you mean?

>>10792359
Posting links without any clarification is not an argument. You got eternally BTFO by >>10793138

>woman continue reading their YA stupid books
>man continue reading old classics

And the life goes on.
I don't understand why the guys here are debating about women' shit tier literature and caring about what a teenager (anon sis) talk about Odissey.
It's irrelevant, this is their nature.
When she come to you and talk about "patriarchal books are bad" just smile and say: "ok, now go read your john green books and let's the man talk about serious lit".

>>10777673
I love the bored expression on his face. You're a faggot, but the comic is okay.

>>10783553
BTFO
The greeks were still misogynists though

>>10794444
Because now they have the right to vote and make up the majority of teaching positions, furthering their pleb agenda. I try reading good books with my son, but I fear that when he gets older he'll be forced to reading John Green books for class and be drilled into viewing the Odyssey as "problematic" by some braindead cretin who can't appreciate art without somehow connecting it to her vagina. Giving women rights was a mistake and it's tiresome to have to spend effort correcting their mistakes when I'd much rather be reading medieval mystery plays.

>>10794522
It's up to you to make him read good stuff and develop a proper taste, and protect him from being brainwashed at school.
If you're involved in what he's being taught, I can't imagine it's too hard to make him critical towards it, perhaps like with the Socratic method. The problem is that most people don't give a shit about their kids, let alone about what they're taught at school, so it's no wonder the kids eat it up.

>>10794493
And you're a consumer whore polluting the planet. How will future generations view you? Is it apparent to you that they will look back on us and spout the exact same diatribe and rhetoric about us?
You're not superior, just born in a different time that has different values. This isn't some golden age of humanity where we have everything figured out. We're just living more comfortably and have time to be worried about people's feelings.

>>10794444
Quads confirm valid point

>>10770935
He is an insufferable faggot. Made it about one minute through a video of his and quit.

S

>>10779394
you're good. you're playing these nerds like a fiddle, carry on. it's entertaining to watch

>>10771720
>Books that address the human condition such as The Odyssey
In what ways does it do this? Not the guy you replied to or a contrarian, it's just that I read the Odyssey and got nothing out it. Curious to see what I missed.

>>10793423
A skill such as that doesn't come from reading books.

Most people, especially here on /lit/, have no god damn clue what they're talking about. Often times in an argument an "expert" will just say random words (in this case, accusing Athena of being a "masculine goddess") and then they hope and pray the person they're talking to is too stupid to call the out on their bullshit-- and they do get away with it-- a lot. Because most people come across their incoherent lexicon like 'male privilege' or 'male power fantasy' and assume it actually has meaning, so they don't challenge it.

But if you read the words "masculine goddess" and think to yourself "wait a second, that doesn't sound right" or "that sounds like some made up bullshit" then you've found the chink in their logical armor. Ask yourself "why does 'masculine goddess' sound so wrong?" It shouldn't take long to figure out.

>>10783275
She has a feminine penis tho

>>10771112
It's true, but it's (in my opinion) trite now. Anyone with a brain can see that a lot of the values in older literature conflict with modern more liberal values. Yet instead of focusing on the beauty of, the depth and psychology of, the symbolism and meaning of, the rhetorical devices used and subtle suggestions of these classic works of literature, all these uppity idiots feel compelled to drag the greatest works of literature of all time through their idiotic political rodeo. Bloom is right that identity politics in academia is leading to the death of literature and the study of literature. It's funny, because I don't even worship literature or its study as an end in itself, but even this relatively quiet, dignified, peaceful and intellectual study, this bastion of some degree of culture, is being overtaken by screeching harpies who don't care about beauty and meaning whatsoever.

>>10791200
wasn't telemachus already a bigboi when ulysses was still imprisoned by kalipso?

>>10771121
Kek'd

bump!

>>10797438
but Athena embodies masculine traits

I hope this thread never dies.

Also, I'm reading the Iliad now. What am I in for?

>>10800962
Great Runner Achilles

>>10771449
>It influenced pretty much every piece of art as we know it today. Kickstarted the hero's journey.


You do realize that Greek morals, philosophy and culture were perverted into the catholic ideals that formed the west right?

and the Hero's Journey is a framework for beginners. it's nothing more then a dated cliche now, and a way for literature students to feel they are making a "Intelligent analysis of something"

Truth is the Odyssey feels dated because it has been repeated over and over in other works, most people with a modicum of culture will have seen a version of it 10 times before they are exposed to the book. And we live in highly iconoclastic times, where we are questioning the reasons and motives of everyone, from authorities to ancient Greek poets. the book does not fit the current ideals, that is true, but instead of simply dismissing it for not being "Inclusive enough", we should learn from it, understand the society in which it was made, and how it worked.

Anon's Sister was right, she did not liked what she saw, but sought to understand why it was like that, anon did the correct thing by telling her, and then she moved to something more akin to her liking.

>>10794522
Forcing kids to read "The Classics" in school is part of the reason people dislike them and move to simpler books tho

if you force this books down kids throats because "they are good and you should like them", they will hate the shit out of them, just because they are forced to read them. by getting them modern books like John Green (which is a shitty author, although a popular one), that have teenagers as characters and deal with "teenager problems" it's easier to spark the interest in reading on kids that would not do it normally. the smart kid who is reading the Odyssey does not need further stimulation, he will keep reading at that level, teacher requesting it or not.

>>10801039
>The nostos is a dated cliche
Jesus Christ this fucking board is infested by redditors.

>>10801090
scum who enjoy john green should be encouraged to cease reading altogether

>>10801112
it's too formulaic, makes every story feel the same, going through the same plot points and situations. and ends up creating a thousand versions of the same predictable story

>>10801117
Anon, think with me.
In order for you to enjoy a fine dinner, you must first understand what is food, then what is bad food, so then you will know what is good food.

the ones who enjoy John Green and nothing else above it will stay at that level, and eventually stop reading books altogether. they will eventually have kids, who will grow up in a house where no one reads for pleasure, and therefore must be thought how to enjoy books: Starting with the simple ones, who are normally bad, and then move on either by incentive or by themselves to better and better books.

seeding literature in the heads of kids is important, only a few of them will catch on, but it will make a world of difference to them.

>>10801168
>Ulysses is a predictable story
Ok then

>>10801187
I agree with you, but shit like john green and stephen king is anti-literature, it's a commercial perversion of what ought to be an artistic medium. Just as Steven King said, it's the McDonald's of literature, and mcdonalds does not inspire culinary refinement but false satiety and mishealth.
Children's lit, mythology, fairy tales and old fashioned adventure stories are the makings of any good kid. The aural traditions should be revived and public librarians shilling john green and ideological diversity authors should be sent to permanent retirement.

>>10801168
>he thinks plot is story

: ^)

>>10801039
>dismissing a story that is thousands of years old because it doesn't hit your diversity quota

the state of the world right now

>>10790739
Why does the chart stop there?

>>10801039
the only reason the star wars ot is so popular and loved is because it's a modern retelling of the hero's journey.
why a dated cliche spawned the most popular pop culture franchise? maybe because it resonate at a deep level with the human soul?

>>10801947
Nigga do you really wanna use Star Wars as your example? are you sure that you want to use a franchise whose own creator said that it was "kid's stuff, never meant to have the impact it has now" and that only achieved it's peak when the fans started creating their own derivative material? are you sure that is the franchise you wanna use?

i'm not saying The Hero's Journey is bad. i'm saying it has been used so many times, that any work that follows it's structure becomes instantly familiar, and then predictable. say what you want about Star Wars being good, you can see it's ending coming a mile away, all the signs are there.

At the same time, it is a great tool for those who don't care about being predictable, because you are putting the focus somewhere else. Great books and movies have been done with that formula, and some of the best stories out there came from subverting parts of the Hero's Journey (Dune is one example that comes to mind)

and just to get you mad: Star Wars is just Like Harry Potter, a very interesting universe, as told by a shitty writer.

>>10801717
stop, go back and re-read what i wrote.

I am NOT saying you should dismiss the classics because they don't fit current morals or visions. it's the fucking opposite of that: re-reading is necessary, but you must understand the society around them, or else you risk doing this type of knee-jerked analysis that the book is "not diverse enough" or "Not moral enough"

>>10801632
I never read anything by Stephen King,so i can't really comment on him. I read "Looking for Alaska", and i would dare say it's the closest thing to a good book that man did in his life. it still reads like a bad fanfic tho.

I believe one of the reasons people like this kind of books so much is due to how easy it is to make kids and teens read it.

when i was growing up, there was this huge discussion that "Kids were not reading enough" "what can we do to make them go back to books?". then Harry Potter came out, and suddenly kids who never read a book were buying 600-page books and reading them in a week, it was crazy.

That's why i think many teachers and librarians defend this type of literature, it gets young kids to read, and from there, you can try to educate them on reading something better, but if you try to force them to read something they have no investment in from the start, they will reject it.

i say that on my personal experience. I read Dante's Inferno when i was young because it sparked my attention, and loved it. but when my Lit teacher made us read The Lusiadas, from Camões, i wanted to go back in time and kill the bastard just so i wouldn't need to read that thing.

>>10802258
i know very well star wars is nothing more than a well executed hollywood blockbuster
im using it to show how a 2 thousand years old template still resonate with a global audience
also don't be so smug while you're shitting on one of the highest cultural achievement of humanity

The western canon by definition discriminates against other books, and because of historical oppression coloured people can't be a significant part of it, which is why it will eventually dissolve as a category.

boomper

>>10797615
this but unironically

>>10802549
Of course they can. Literally the only condition for expanding the canon is producing canon-worthy literature.

>>10771353
>The dissolution and emancipation of western culture and civilisation is not a thing to applaud
That's where you're wrong, my weak friend. Why do you hide behind a skin so thin it can be blown away by ink on a page? Out, out! Hide no longer, and we may choose not to kill you.

>>10784295
I feel like as time progresses here so does the rate of degradation of the place