/lit/ - Literature

>>10763955
I was raised Catholic I'll admit, but I will never understand why Protestants think they will gain by shunning Jesus Christ's mother.

Why do protestants hate the Holy Mother so much bros
Will they ever understand

>>10763969
>>10763976
>not worshipping her as a literal goddess
>'Shunning'
>'hate'
>this is how Catholics see things

>>10763983
First of all, it takes five seconds of research to find out that Catholics don't worship Mary as a goddess.
Second of all, who is to say that she isn't?

>>10763983
She's a saint not a goddess.
That's the whole point of the saints, that they can help you by being more accessible and relatable than God

if digits, mary is a goddess

>>10763994
It very closely resembles such a practice though.
>who is to say that she isn't
The Bible, the churchfathers, pretty much everyone actually.

>>10764000
>Catholics worship Kek now too

>>10763998
>>10763994
>they're just dead people with a special link to a source of omniscient and omnipotent power, but they're not Gods, that would be silly

>>10764000
So it is then

>>10764000
based

>Let Catholics examine whether they are in any way concerned in this verse.

>>10764018
>mary
>a dirty blonde
she was a qt pure jewish waifu

Reminder

>>10764022
icecold

>>10764022
>protestants in charge of interpreting scripture ever

Monotheists are not welcome on this board.

>>10764043
reminder

>>10764077
Nice argument.
>sed contra: muh church father said x y
>t. Doctor Aquinas

>>10763955
>>10763976
>>10763994
>>10763998
>>10764009
>>10764011
>>10764022
>>10764043
>>10764029
>>10764077
>>10764086
Autism.

Hey everyone!!

I'm an atheist and I want religion, and I want some form of Christianity.
Is there a difference between American Protestantism and European Protestantism?
What are the main differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy?
If I am going to be religious it has to be genuine, but there are just too many different types of the Christian faith that I just don't know what to do.
I guess what I'm asking is: redpill me on your specific type of Christianity, if you please.

>>10764000
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Amen

>>10764150
Amen

>>10764145
Start with the Bible desu, at that point you'll have naturally found your way to protestantism

>>10764150
>>10764152
REEE MARY CANNOT BESTOW GRACE
THOUGH SHE WAS BLESSED, SHE STILL REQUIRES THE GRACE OF GOD FOR HER SALVATION
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>10764169
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVMmIJiqSJc

>>10764169
calm the fuck down bro she just interceding and shit

why can't we be friends guys

>>10764150
Amen

>>10764183
L*ther

>>10764169
Mary can and does bestow grace. Stay mad.
We /marist/ now

>>10764009
>It very closely resembles such a practice though.

No it doesn't. Because we don't offer her ritual sacrifices, which is what the pagans offered to their gods.
And yet it does, because Mary is a goddess in the sense of a being raised to celestial power and glory. She is more powerful than any of the pagan gods were.

>>10764011

Jesus isn't the God of the dead, he said so himself. The saints are alive in Christ.

>>10764011
Read the Bible. It literally says that we are gods.

>I have said: You are gods and all of you the sons of the most High.

>Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods?

If the Christians on earth are "gods", then how much more those in heaven. Read the Bible.

>>10764190
Do you offer ritual sacrifices to God? (Don't answer that, I don't want to know what you quasi-pagans do)
You
>make icons of her
>pray to said icons
>daily
>as a central part of your practice

>>10764215
>Do you offer ritual sacrifices to God?
Yes, we call it the Mass or the Divine Liturgy.

>make icons of her
>pray to said icons
>daily
>as a central part of your practice
These are not ritual sacrifices. Ritual sacrifices involve a victim sacrificed upon an altar.

>>10764219
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcOTkbhlEIg

>>10764219
>>Do you offer ritual sacrifices to God?
>Yes [...]
>[...] Ritual sacrifices involve a victim sacrificed upon an altar.
Nigger what

My point was first and foremost this: Ritual sacrifice is not an essential feature of worship of Gods. The fact that you do not sacrifice lambs to Mary does not yet mean that your worship of her does not resemble the worship of Gods.

>>10764229
What's wrong with worshiping Mary?

>>10764215
Catholics do not pray to mary to worship her as a goddess, but to ask her to interfere before god
You know this anon

>>10764229
You're right, we do worship Mary and the saints, but it's not the same kind of worship that is offered to God. Worship just means reverence. Mayors in English parlance are referred to as "The Worshipful". Any kind of reverence can be seen as a form of worship. A man keeping the image of his dead wife and lightning a candle on her birthday can be seen as a kind of worship. But we distinguish between the worship of latria, which is offered to God alone, and which involves ritual sacrifice; and the worship of dulia, which is offered to spiritually elevated creatures like the saints, and excludes ritual sacrifice.

>>10763955
Is that the Haydock Bible? I've been reading it and it's full of snarky comments like that about Protestants lol.

I've never known any Catholics, only disaffected atheists descended from Protestants. What's the actual beef here?

>>10764150
Amen

>>10764250
500 years ago a bunch of Catholics got upset about the state of the Church, broke off, started their own group which splintered into thousands of pieces, causing wars and religion to fall into disrepute all throughout Europe. These people, now called Protestants, are still complaining about the same things they did 500 years ago, and still pretend that their dividing Christians into countless sects was somehow a needed reform of Christianity that we all benefited from.

so this is the power of christianity... i'm intrigued

>>10764263
So what about interacting with Catholics in the present day

>>10764250
Protestants are still mad that German retards were stupid enough in the 1500s to pay to go to heaven, while the rest of the world was laughing at them. One day, the smartest German of all time was born, Martin Luther, who had an IQ of 70. He told people that the church was bad and that you can only base your religion on scripture (which was invented by the Church lmao). Also he blamed it all on the jews because he was a german retard. Also he thinks that you can go to heaven just for believing in Jesus and not for actually doing anything good.
As you can see, this is a completely retarded, Germanic but I repeat myself way of thinking, so to make up for getting completely BTFO in every theological debate the protestants have taken to making up retarded things about Catholics to try to level the playing field.

Mary's special status is revealed when Gabriel calls her "full of grace" before she becomes pregnant with Jesus. This indicates that she was free from sin, even from Original Sin. This is where the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception comes from.

>>10764263
>hey, guys, maybe donating to Lardy McLardass XXVIII's confectionary fund is not what was meant by 'good deeds' and in any case does not redeem you from 'getting that sweet boipussy' (or whatever is the royal fashion as of late)
>HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME, BOY
>*unleashes the bull on you*

>>10764263
>>10764272

>Nuh-uh, you're not allowed to translate the Gospel into the common language of your time and place. The only authoritative version is my translation into the common language of the time and place.

>>10764328
tbf most protestant retards i meet try to argue theology based on semantics in their shitty translation of the bible

>>10764346
Conversing with the average Protestant is an excellent argument against the "priesthood of all believers." Come to think of it, so is conversing with the average Catholic.

>you cannot enter heaven but through the men I have licensed to wear my funny dresses

>>10764356
yeah people are retards, that's why we have the church

>>10764361
The discourse here is reaching /his/ levels. Honestly, a bit sad.

>>10764371
I am just baiting desu, not even a Christian. But it's funny to see you guys go at it.

>>10764190
>She is more powerful than any of the pagan gods were.
Are you actually admitting that pagan gods exist(ed)?
Are you actually, honestly saying "my gods are stronger than your gods", like a child that says "my dad is stronger than your dad"?
This sort of thinking isn't funny, it isn't even sad, it's bizarre.

>>10764426
You know what he meant. *theists are not welcome here.

>>10764426
The Bible, the Church fathers, the saints, the mystics: all say that the pagan gods existed, and that they were demons disguising themselves.

>>10764442
I have no problem with the idea of God, a perfect being, and the story of Jesus is powerful, but don't you think having demons in disguise tricking whole nations into believing in bullshit for millennia is a bit too much?

>>10763998
You believe she's literally the mother of Jesus x queen of Mary and even co-redemtrix. That's spooky enough for me.

>>10764505
No, because all cultures from all over the world have pretty much attested to it.

>>10764539
...
Wait, wait, all cultures have attested to WHAT!?

>>10764554
To the existence of demons and their interference in human affairs. Hermes Trismegistus, an ancient Egyptian priest, said that their "gods" were made by binding the spirits of demons to stone idols. His works are still referred to by modern occultists.

This is the literal text of the Hail Mary, point out the idolatry:
>Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee.
Someone born without sin, and assumed into heaven, is probably with the lord.
>Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
I think that’s fairly uncontroversial.
>Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death
You’re literally asking someone who we can be fairly certain is in heaven(and still alive as a result) to pray for you.

>>10764293
But you literally can’t buy indulgences anymore.

>>10764571
So you're saying that demons are more likely to exist than God, because, since the number of people who believe in something is relevant to that thing's truthfulness, there are more people who believe(d) in demons than christians.

>>10764290
So how do you reconcile that with "all have fallen short of the glory of God?"

>>10763955
Literally if you aren't Catholic or Orthodox, what are you doing?

>>10764145
Look for god by yourself instead of blindly following some arbitrary circlejerk of child rapists, KGB or ruthless materialists.

>>10764145
Ignore the other plebs and become a Gnostic instead.

>>10764082
Do Lutherans even count as "Christians" according to Protestants? Pic related is them worshiping the Eucharist. If not, then you can't Bach as one of your own.

>>10764150
Amen

>worshiping a pagan vagina god that appeared after the conquistadors sacked an Aztec fertility shrine
>the most visited Catholic holy site on earth is literally a former temple to a pagan snake-vagina goddess
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe#Early_history

ever wonder why catholics are such momma's boys

what about mormons? arent they batshit crazy?

>>10764785
they seem slightly insane but it's cool to have a america based version of monotheism, plus if they can hook me up with a job and wife i'm in there like swimwear, next stop salt like city

>>10764767
http://www.virginmotherofguadalupe.com/our-lady-of-guadalupe-image/message-symbols

Aztecs saw her as greater than the "snake-vagina god" and Our Lady shows her humility in the Tilma when she looks down in prayer. Oh yeah, it's no surprise that the Virgin Mary crushes the head of the serpent with her heel and that Our Lady appeared to St. Juan Diego on the hill of the former "snake-vagina goddess" temple. It's almost like Our Lady vanquishes the Aztec pagan god, huh?

Oh too, Our Lady is depicted standing in front of the Sun, the Aztec god of war and human sacrifice, signifying that the Aztecs need not human sacrifice anymore (cuz Jesus) and that even she was greater than their god.

Go to that website. It shows the significance and superiority of the Tilma's image in relation to Aztec codices and Aztec beliefs.

>>10764826
>catholics are literally proud to worship ancient demons

>>10764022
> [thumps bible in protestant]
His audience was of an age where ritual alone constituted satisfaction to the gods. Jesus merely asks them for personal investment in prayer. In no way does the Catholic church violate this request.

>>10764843
>this anon is literally a vegetable

Catholicism has been doomed since Nicea. When the church surrendered its philosophical Platonic roots, it was inevitable they would adopt magical thinking and become a synthesis of any alien superstitions they encountered. Only monastics can really count as Catholics.

The criticism here is mostly justified. This thread is still cancer tho.

>>10764846
nice misreading, must be in the stubborn ignorant autistic Protestant genes. read it again, it's a set of imperative declarations. not an ask, and not mere investment.

>>10764145
I'm in a bit of a religious rut (Catholic v. Orthodox) too. Here's what I recommend
1. Read The Bible multiple times (I read it twice and now am reading just the New Testament for the third time)
2. Read Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Religion vols 1 and 2, then the Ante-Nicene Fathers
3. Read Philip Schaff's History of the Christian religion volume 3, then the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers
After this, you should have a good, well-rounded view of the faith of Christ

>>10764864

>Catholicism has been doomed since Nicea. When the church surrendered its philosophical Platonic roots, it was inevitable they would adopt magical thinking and become a synthesis of any alien superstitions they encountered. Only monastics can really count as Catholics.

as a church history smoothbrain can you explain this more pls

>>10765096
He is a church history smoothbrain trying to lead you astray

Catholics literally think and act like Pagans. Oh, we have to light the magic candles so we can eat the magic bread while we say the magic words. GTFO you people need Luther in your life

>>10765134
Luther was a heretic, pray for his soul :-(

I really wish he stayed in the Church. He wrote beautiful stuff on the grace of God, truly. If he reformed the Church from within and didn't compromise any teachings, we would see a Lutheran order.

>>10765151
>Luther is a heretic
>but re-purposing Zoroastrian holidays is fine

>>10765134
Luther is probably the gayest academic of any kind in history and I say that as a plaonist.

>>10765151
Luther tried. I really do think it was a two-way problem, both the Papacy and Luther were too stubborn and it destroyed Christendom

>>10765134
> magic bread
Luther believed in "magic bread" too, you imbecile. >>10764714

>>10765157
What days?

Probably not true, but you're acting like that's the final nail in the coffin for Catholicism lol

>>10765165
You know I've heard that he didn't wish to start a new Church; I'm not totally well versed though. And yeah, I wish it would've been resolved, but still that does not mean Luther should've ignited such a fire

>>10765096
Nicea created an oppressive doctrine. for the sake of uniformity (and the suppression of heresy), nobody had to think anymore. just think and pray the way we tell you and you're golden. the church did still have questions that theologians needed to answer, but they built their fallacious new mythologies on top of bad readings of the new testament and old. that is, it was more important their readings didn't rock the boat and conformed to the mythos agreed upon at Nicea than they actually make sense or be worthwhile. this is how you get thousands of years of lamebrains arguing about the nature of the trinity, and if god (The One) had anything to do with it. fucking retards.

>>10765176
Which is why we don’t deify Luther. He set us on the right path, but we’re not gonna pray to him

>>10765157
have fun in Hell i mean heaven for worshipping a Greco-Judaic demon which compels pedophilia, sado-masochism and hyper violence in its followers

>>10765186
have fun with your koreans and niggers

>>10765186
Have fun in "Confession" I mean private time with ol’ Father Anderson

>>10765186
do you actually believe in Hell and think that anon is going there? or is this just post-sincerity memeing

>>10765183
Are Lutherans "christian"?

>>10763955
Protestants never fail to be either wife beating hicks, black niggers, or soulless mechanical anglos/north Germans

>>10764864
>>10765182
incidentally the global Catholic amalgamation of mythos, this accretion of pseudophilosophical detritus, resulted in Protestantism. a return to reason and philosophical inquiry arm in arm with faith. too little, too late, and also corrupted by the church's magical thinking.

>>10764000
wtf im a catholic now

that is to say, reactionary. and framing too-important, too-big questions in the personages of Christ and friends instead of developing subtler ways of understanding.

>>10765193
im a caucasoid supremacist
>>10765195
see you have to continue joking about it because you know its true
>>10765198
i believe all religious people go into special bardos which are sick inversions of their ideas of heaven which after a time become unbearable and they return to this Earth as either wrathful spirits or antireligious zealots

no meme’ing!!!

>>10765315
>special bardos
sup L Ron how you been senpai

>>10764150
Amen

>>10764150
Did you know that Mary was the Whore of Babylon?

>>10764365
*tips fedora*

>>10764000

Holy Mary Mother of God!

>>10764150
>fetishize Christ
noli me tangere, you smoothbrain fucks. do not cling to Him.
>fetishize Mary, mother of Christ
and stop clinging to his mother, CHRIST when are you brainless apes ever going to get it together. this is not even theology, just barbarian superstition.

>>10765319
the only good bardo is el buen bardo

>>10765319
>he thinks this is something Scientology lolcows made up

>>10765383
nah, it's just a Scientology-tier concept.

>>10764000
Hail holy queen!
Put me in the screen cap!

>>10765186

>>10765405
i'm gonna let you off easy here sport

What I get from reading Catholics is that they are in many ways just like the Pharisees and the Scribes. They act like they have never read Romans 3:20 et seq., or Hosea 6:6.
Do I think all tradition and formality ought to be thrown overboard? No. Does that mean that anyone who does not kneel in the right way at the appropriate time is the kind of offender that Matthew 18:6 talks about?

>>10764290
>Mary's special status is revealed when Gabriel calls her "full of grace"
Except the original Greek doesn't say that, it's a poor translation. The Greek word for grace isn't in that sentence, kεχαριτωμένη means "highly favoured". The oldest manuscripts don't include "blessed are you among women" either, it's a later addition. If it becomes doctrine Catholics believe it, whether it's true or not.

>>10764846

Catholicism not only says that empty ritual is enough, but that it is preferable. Rational or even generally affective guilt or any other state of mind is explicitly shunned in favor of ritual expression thereof, actual p-zombiehood. Imagine what the God demanding such a thing is like.

can one be convinced of Catholicism, or do I have to want to believe it?

>>10768617
I guess it depends on what you mean by convinced. It's faith-based, as religion tends to be, so you'll never get hard proof of God's existence. There's circumstantial evidence, that I personally think is pretty good, but if you want to be really convinced of something you'd likely need to look into its philosophical teachings and be persuaded by those.

>>10764150

Pray for us sinners

>>10764145
>I'm an atheist and I want religion
>it has to be genuine

>>10768680
why does mary look like a sloot and jesus look like a tard? and is that link from legend of zelda in the back?

>>10768717
DeviantArt, that's why

>>10768680
I will.

>>10764635
Cringe. This is some conspiracy theory logic and you're embarrassing yourself by posting it in every Bible thread. Reading the actual chapters only makes it clearer how strained the connections are.

>>10764000
FUCK

>>10764000
I should start going back to church

>>10769133
Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Not a surprise in Jewish tradition that the mother of a king was called queen.

Can you not see the importance of the Mother of God?

Perhaps the Marian Apparitions on the behalf of God would convince you?

>>10769171
I highly suggest going; just don't worship Our Lady and don't call her a goddess. Honor her instead, call her the Mother of God instead ;-)

>>10764000
Put me in the screencap

>>10765186
Pssh, nothin’ personal sinner

>>10764043

>>10769171
Be sure to go to Confession first.

>>10765151
>write down your thoughts on the Bible and theology
>Faith alone through grace saves us, also indulgences are bad
>Archbishop mostly concerned about the indulgences part
>Tells the pope you're a heretic
>Pope starts investigating
>after 3 years brings you in for questioning
>you don't recant
>continued escalation between you and Church
>you promise to keep quiet about it
>Eck decides he fucking hates you and keeps making you speak out about your beliefs in public
>the pope tells you to recant or get excommunicated
>tell the pope to frig off
>Get called in
>All of your life's work is laid before you, and you are asked to recant it
>ask for a day to pray about it
>come back and say "Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. May God help me. Amen."
>"Luther only heretics quote the Bible!" - Eck again
>frig off Eck
>The Emperor decides to arrest you
>escape, translate the Bible, write more doctrines, and shame the Archbishop into stopping indulgences
>peasant's get randy, tell them to stop

>why did he have to leave? He was just so antagonistic!

>>10770965
Have you read Luther? He was just a little in the antagonistic side. And was reasoned with clearly on a lot of his positions. Besides, criticizing the church at the time was far from disallowed, if Erasmus is anything to go by.

>>10771316
Also: indulgences in general weren't bad, though were in practice (see: give up some money as the act of penance). Not sure where the "saved by grace alone" critique of catholicism comes from, that was accepted then and now.

>>10764000
700 year solved by one post.

>>10763955
Why should Catholics behave nicely towards retards who are the cause of the degradation in the west? I keep meeting "Christians" who are protestants who simply reject insanely important parts of scripture. I've met protestants who wash down the problem of evil into a black and white. Someone I was talking to just last week said that people are either good or evil. Can you believe this shit?

Protestantism was a mistake.

>>10764000
Marian Gnostic POLYTHEISM !!!!

>>10766917
Catholics have a long history of pettiness, and that plaid no small role in the Great Schism.

>Also: indulgences in general weren't bad, though were in practice (see: give up some money as the act of penance). >Not sure where the "saved by grace alone" critique of catholicism comes from, that was accepted then and now.

>>10771792
Classical Catholic. Why admit any of your own mistakes when you can find someone else to blame? Why practice humility and self-criticism when you can arrogantly criticise someone else?
Oh, yes, it's these evil proddies who have ruined everything! Oh no no no, my little Peter in Rome dindu nuffing, he was a good boy and if it weren't for those mean proddies we would all be holy by now!
Christ.

>>10764142
We did it reddit!!!!

>>10764077
>NOOOO DONT READ THE SCRIPTURE YOURSELF!!!
>NOOOO YOU NEED OUR PRIESTS TO TELL YOU WHAT IT MEANS AHHHHH
You guys are pathetic

>>10764000
Amen.

>>10771316
>He was just a little in the antagonistic side.

>>10764000
time to crack the catechism...

>>10764272
>yes yes us catholics would win every debate if it wasn't for u dumb protestant making up things!!!

>>10770656
PLEASE NO, CORN FATHER

>>10772510
classic german obsession with the scat.

>>10770656
KEK

>>10763955
What site is this?

>>10764022
So how do Protestants feel about Pater Noster? It's literally a prayer Jesus taught his students according to the Bible.

>>10772819
>vain repetitions

A modernist protestant evangelical pastor-professor and contraceptives advocate was teaching a class on Martin Luther, known heretic.
”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Luther and accept that the five solas are divine commandments, even greater than the 255 Dogmas!”

At this moment, a brave, traditionalist, monarchist Catholic soldier of Christ who had said over 15,000 Rosaries and understood the necessity of Apostolic Succession and supported all the dogmatic pronouncements of the ecumenical councils and the Supreme Pontiff stood up and held a Bible.
”Who wrote this book, pinhead?”
The arrogant pastor smirked quite heretically and smugly replied “God did, you statue-worshipping papist.”
”Wrong. The Sacred Authors, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, dictated Holy Writ from their own historical perspectives and Mother Church collected these books under the direction of that same Holy Ghost. If sola scriptura, as you say, is true, then the Bible entered the world ex-nihilo (which means ‘from nothing’ for you non-Latin casuals), which is what the infidel Muslims say about their stupid Koran.”

The pastor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Your Best Life Now: 7 Steps to Living at Your Full Potential by Joel Osteen. He stormed out of the room crying those apostate modernist tears. The same tears modernists cry for the “Jews” (who today live in such luxury that they’re allowed to practice usury). There is no doubt that at this point our professor, Martin Jack “Chick” Calvin, wished he had read more of the Church Fathers and classical biblical exegesis. He so wished he had a tradition of apologetics to rebut the Catholic student with, but he had declared all tradition fallible and man-made!

The students applauded and all registered for RCIA that day and accepted the Pope as the legitimate successor of Saint Peter. An eagle named “Doctrine” flew into the room and perched atop the Papal States flag and
shed a tear on the chalk. The Oath Against Modernism was read several times, and Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke showed up and celebrated the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
The pastor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. He converted to Catholicism and received Last Rites as he died of embarrassment, and was tossed into purgatory until such time as his soul was clean of sin.

>>10772739
I thought it was this
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen001.htm
but the version they have online appears to be different from the one in the offline archive that they sell (or at least sold once upon a time?) (the one you see in OP). The offline version is the Douay-Rheims translation and has comments, whereas the online version is the Knox translation and just has footnotes, it seems.

>>10764150
Amen

>>10764371
I blame all the funposting

>>10772989
Outstanding

>>10764082
reminder

>>10764624
Close but not exactly. Demons are more immediate than God is. For obvious reasons.

protestants in america think catholics worship mary because they don't know what reverence means because they go to public schools and attend churches that either look like shopping malls or rundown tool sheds and they consider football jerseys and jean shorts to be proper churchgoing attire.

>>10772989
wtf I'm a Catholic now

>>10773750
>they consider football jerseys and jean shorts to be proper churchgoing attire
Oh yes, I remember when Jesus said that the most important part of church was inconspicuously showing other people you can afford nice clothes.

>protestants in america think catholics worship mary
>w-we don't worship Mary! We just pray in front of statues of her and call her the Mother of God! We need her to intercede with God on our behalf, even though God doesn't need a secretary because he's omnipotent, and she won't change his mind because he's omniscient.

t. former Catholic who grew a brain and is now an evangelical

>>10773893
Doesn't believe in Eucharist even all of the early church did; dont deprive yourself friend

reminder that congregationalism was the peak of Christianity

Catholicism and High Church Anglicanism are literally the only denominations worth considering.
Orthodoxy is more of a political tool and ethnic decoration than a living faith.

I am properly amazed that anyone still takes Protestantism seriously, after literally thousands of splits and steady abandonment of core Christian beliefs. Protestantism is the single greatest example of a historically unfolding disaster. By their fruits you shall know them.

>>10773929
>hurr durr if you dare question my pagan metaphysics I pulled out of my ass- uhh I mean Summa you are literally denying the Eucharist

>>10773957
>Abandonment of core Christian beliefs
Like? Sure there are 'Protestants' who abandon scripture in favour of the Zeitgeist, but there are plenty of Catholic priests like that too. Those higher up in the hierarchy resort to hypocrisy and mental gymnastics instead -- wow, that's much better!

>>10773967
Real presence in the Eucharist is an obvious one. The very earliest historical accounts and Church Fathers affirm this doctrine as essential to the faith ; there is no coherent argument against it.

>>10774057
not in the scripture, not a core belief

>>10774057
>STILL using this strawman
We believe in the real presence, just not the same way you do. Show me that the early Church Fathers held the exact teaching on real presence that you Catholics do, I'm waiting.

>>10774057
>>10774084
>GUYS, PAUL IS SAYING WE ARE ALL LITERALLY ONE BREAD (BUT, LIKE, IN SUBSTANCE ONLY)
>NO DUDE WE ARE ALL LITERALLY, LIKE, UNITED WITH THE BREAD
>THIS IS SURELY WHAT PAUL MEANT
You are all retards.

>10774107
This is bait.

>>10773944
It peaked in the first millenium and has been in constant decline since

>>10774129
Nice argument

>>10764000
grug not accept digits only sticky from skyjannie

>>10774159
grug break vow for big milky titty

>>10764150
Amen

>>10773957
Eastern Orthodox has the strongest continuity with early Christianity. Roman Catholicism hits a major point of departure with Augustine. Protestantism is just hyper-Augustinianism and even further from the roots of Christianity.

>>10773959
Bro the Eucharist is clear even in Paul's letters -- it's the oldest clearly attested element of Christianity.

>>10773750

>>10774298
By definition that is wrong. Nicea defined that. The Catholic church is the actual "orthodox" church, they unified it first and determined what is and is not orthodox. The Orthodox church is something else, and it's therefore not "strongest in continuity". That's logically impossible.

>>10774307
Are you actually this dense? Can you not read? I am NOT questioning the Eucharist, that is what you are ACCUSING us of doing.
SHOW ME where Paul talks about substance and accidents.

>>10774348
Orthodox theology coheres far more with early Christianity than does Roman Catholicism.

The Bishop of Rome as formal head of the Universal Church was not decided at Nicea, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

>>10763983
>veneration of Mary
>worship
This is a literal Muslim talking point lmao

>>10774063
John 6; Jesus tells us to eat His flesh and drink His blood like 5 times. He let thousands of people leave because he wouldn't compromise that teaching; He even invited the 12 to leave as well. He couldn't be more clear.

>>10774084
>>10773893
>>10773959
>http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
Does that suffice? Seems like the first Christians believed in the real presence like how Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodoxy do today

>>10772989
this but unironically

>>10774689
Catholicism needs to go back to war with Islam. I feel like it would be useful for us to sharpen ourselves against the Mohammedans, since they're so desperate to claim they "respect" Jesus but at the same time commit such diabolical heresies.

This is why I hope Cardinal Sarah becomes pope. He realizes the barbarism of Islam. He knows how vile and heretical Muslims truly are, and he knows that our contrast with their heresy will revitalize the faith.

>>10773750
Catholics in south america really do worship saints (including Mary!) as gods. Catholics just like to pretend this doesn't count because they want to keep calling themselves monotheistic. Same reason they came up with the whole "holy trinity, Jesus is actually part of God" thing.

>>10774885
catholic retards don't understand metaphors

>>10775220
There's nothing wrong with Islam, in fact it's quite sound, meanwhile christfags have more contradictions to deal with.

>>10775234
It spits in the face of our Lord and Savior, and of his sacrifice on the cross. Muslims are in league with Satan, and converse with demons.

>>10775237
Don't they say the same about you?

>>10775230
Jesus said the same thing over and over. And the masses got angry and left; Jesus didn't go "OMG it was just a metaphor, come back!!!"

Just reread John 6

>>10775251
desu Christians mistake Gabriel as God, and the trinity is clearly dividing God which is a vile blasphemy; if they think this, but make it out like this is a good "mystery" to "ponder" (ie ignore). Not to mention Christian literature constantly makes supposedly holy men and prophets of God out to be consistently the worst people.

>>10775260
miracle of fish and loaves =/= eucharist
otherwise catholics would be eating sardines and thinking it was Christ
go back to sunday school

>>10775225
>Catholics in south america really do worship saints (including Mary!) as gods
That's just not true, stop spreading bullshit.

>>10775272
>miracle of fish and loaves =/= eucharist
what?
It's Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ = Eucharist.

We're clearly talking about the bread of life discourse man, not the feeding of the five thousand

>>10764785
AZ fag here
Mormons are honestly the nicest and hardest working people around if you can get over the judgmental and jacked ones
really makes modern "Christians" look like hypocrites

>>10775313
I know a lovely mormon family; I'm really good friends with their son and daughter. We all went to hs together

>>10775297
What is fish? The sweat of Christ?
lmao it's a metaphor for his sacrifice that we may gain eternal life, sustained by belief in Jesus as our Lord. That's why he takes up ordinary wine and bread. If it truly was Christ it would be explicitly said to be, or otherwise manifested from Christ (the miracle of fish and loaves was food manifested from other food, for instance. Miraculous but not literally Christ's flesh).
>hurr but he says
Christ speaks in metaphors and allegories almost every time he opens his mouth. Miracles in the Bible are narrated as such; the casting out of legion, raising of Lazarus, water to wine, ect. But at the Last Supper, there is no line saying "oh and then the wine became his blood miraculously and so to the bread". It's not in the scripture.

>>10775264
>"ponder" (ie ignore)
That's pretty funny anon.

The historical origins of islam seem kind of messy to me, but the resulting theology is pristine. "Yeah there's a God".

>>10775264
>mistake Gabriel as God

No, we listen to Christ himself, who repeatedly throughout the Gospels makes it plain that he is God made flesh.

>>10775260
Bible also says God created the earth in 6 days, but the Catholic church doesn't consider that to be literal.

Calling biblical verses metaphors is just a political tactic for when christians feel it would be awkward and embarassing to still believe the literal interpretation.
The Protestants just felt a little more embarrassed about "this bread is literally Jesus" than the Catholics did, is all.

>>10775346
>gospels
Which ones? There are earlier gnostic texts. In fact you couldn't decide on standardised texts for some time, could you.

>>10775332
Of course it is symbolic, but it goes deeper than that. The symbol of the bread and wine and the literal body and blood of Christ is not either/or; why can't it be both/and? You ought to research the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano too; it's a miracle of the Eucharist turning into physical flesh and there's a whole scientific report(in Italian though).
>http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

Christ speaks in metaphors
Yeah Christ mostly spoke in parables to evade he pharisees and scribes and to make His message reach the simplest of men.
> there is no line saying
Lol but He does say "This is my body which will be given up for you and for many." and "This is my blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." That's why the Mass celebrates the sacrifice of Christ that is eternal and outside of time. It's the meeting of Heaven and Earth.


>stilling pushing my point:
Christ acknowledges the murmurings of the masses and He knows they are aware He doesn't speak metaphorically
>"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Jesus knows they understand what He just said was literal and not metaphorical:
> I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.
Under the awareness of the doubtful minds of the masses, Jesus does not back down. He says the same thing 6 times, "eat my flesh, drink my blood". He is putting His foot down, immutable to the reaction of the masses. Then the masses reject Him and leave, because that "saying was too hard". They clearly knew it wasn't metaphorical and so did Christ.

Obviously He did not mean for them to be cannibals. That's why He institutes the sacrament of the Eucharist at the Last Supper with the bread and wine. The host is the literal Body and Blood of Christ, but not physical; why do you think it is called a host? When God says "Let there be light," it was He speech that brought about the actuality—where the clear context in not allegorical or metaphorical. The same is true with Christ says "the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world," it is actualized and it is beyond clear that Jesus Christ speaks literally, so literally that He lets everyone leave and invites the 12, the ones closest to Him, to leave as well.

You really need to look up the teachings of the church fathers. If anyone knew right from wrong about Christianity, it'll be Jesus's contemporaries in the apostolic age, those within the first century. If you don't take it from them, I don't what to do after that other than pray.
>http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

>>10775383
Read the parts of the bible in the intended contexts. and see:
>>10775433

>>10775433
>of course it is symbolic, but it
stopped reading there. It is a symbolic ritual to help us remember Christ's sacrifice and his nourishment of our souls. That is its purpose, remembrance. It's ridiculous to believe anything beyond this. His sacrifice is enough to feed us, belief in him is enough to grant us eternal life in him and to inspire us to follow the word of God.
Thinking of some weird transformative cannibalistic rite as an essential and required part of the faith reeks of hellenic pagan mystery religion nonsense, the fact that it misses the essential point notwithstanding.

>>10775457
Explain bleeding Eucharists.

>>10775461
he can't because he is close minded, perhaps even more than an atheist, he said he didnt even read that last post lol

>>10775461
I have never seen a bleeding Eucharist, and I am inclined to believe they are a result of the characteristic catholic superstitious thinking, catholics in general being feeble minded and prone to hysteria.

>>10775482
you haven't seen Jesus either lol

on the bleeding Eucharist:
>http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

scientific facts that cannot be accounted for... It truly is a miracle from God. Read up bud

>>10764022
>catholicucks in charge of not getting ethered

>>10764714
>according to Protestants
Lutherans are protestans, clown. It's pretty telling that catholics always have to default to addressing the worst elements in Protestantism.

>>10765176
Luther eventually came to repudiate transubstantiation.

>>10764022
>describing pharisees
>implying repetition is vain
>implying Catholics aren't expected to take in the prayer fully and meditate on its words

>>10775474
You know, it's funny. I used to think that it was impossible for anyone to look at an extraordinary act of God, like the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, and remain an atheist. I thought that miracles seen by many, and attested to by impartial observers, couldn't be refuted. Yet they were, and I could never figure out why.

But then I revisited the parable of Lazarus and the rich man one day, and I saw the ending in a new light:

>He said, 'Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.' But Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.' He said, 'Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' Then Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.'"

I realized that this parable answers my troubles. I don't think miracles exist to convert nonbelievers. I think instead that miracles are probably to solidify the faith of nonbelievers. What converts nonbelievers, as the parable says, is "Moses and the prophets": that is, the Scriptures. It's only by reading the Bible, and listening to the teachings of the Church, that one truly is converted to Christianity, rather than just being awed by some miraculous happening.

>>10775490
>you haven't seen Jesus either
I believe in Christ as Lord because it is displayed quite clearly in scripture, and in having faith in Christ as LORD we gain eternal life in him through his sacrifice.
Believing in bread magic is not a requirement of inheriting the kingdom of heaven, nor is it based in scripture in any way.
>m-muh miracle
It's nothing. Every source I have seen about this alleged miracle is catholic. I doubt any serious critical investigation has gone into this "scientific" analysis because the regime that is the roman catholic church protects itself from any form of criticism.

>>10775552


the scientific study isn't catholic though
>http://www.mondosindone.com/Site/documenti/DSS001_11%20-%20Sindone%20e%20Miracolo%20di%20Lanciano.pdf
>https://www.mediafire.com/file/2j2j8qalrmcrlb4/Lanciano+Article+16-45-35.pdf

>>10764150
Amen

>>10775595
let's see here:
the earliest account of this miracle is 1631, so roughly 900 years from the alleged date of the miracle. There are therefore no witnesses that can truly say this sample used to be wine and bread. All the scientific study says is that the sample is indeed human blood and flesh. The only unusual thing is the preservation of it, but from my limited search it doesn't appear that the study ever went under any type of peer review, like any other scientific study would. It also says the WHO backed the findings but this report does not exist.
This isn't science this is "science" that was carefully preened to back up the catholic church.

>>10763955
>this is how gnostics behave

>>10775627
it's a piece of flesh from 1300 years ago that has a proportional amount of certain proteins only found in fresh blood.

that's the most inexplicable part and it is foolish to downplay it
>http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html I'll link it again

>>10764150
amen

>>10775648
>a 'scientific' study that constantly refers to a the 'miraculous flesh' (which no witnesses can attest to it having previously been bread) and that has never been peer reviewed - a process of critical inquiry that every legitimate scientific paper has to go through - which references a nonexistent backing from the WHO is in no way bias let me post my catholic link again masturbating it

>>10775666
>666

>>10774885
WE BELIEVE IN THE REAL PRESENCE YOU DENSE IDIOT
WE DO NOT SHARE YOUR ARISTOTELIAN-METAPHYSICAL EXPLANATION OF IT
DENSE
IDIOT

>>10775666
Why do atheists always get this roll? The numbers mason, what do they mean?

>>10764150
Yo can I get a fucking AMEN

>>10775666
Damn, Satan laying the smack-down