/lit/ - Literature

>>10742709
I doubt it.

>>10742709
They aren't
>if there is one is a strawman
>most fascist avoid talking about communism
Mussolini was a socialist before getting quicked of the party for racism and being bribed by the nobility, so he stopped writing about communism when he got kicked for corruption

I don't think you understand the meaning of communism and fascism, the so called 'fascist states' were against capitalism and consumerism, they were centrists/socialists as far as economics goes

>>10742709
Step 1: don't be a brainlet
Step 2: read Marx with a critical eye. You'll probably find many of the insights in Capital to be amazing and you'll admire the intellect Marx must have had.
Step 3: read the manifesto
Step 4: realize that despite his mastery of diagnosis Marx couldn't write a non-utopian political prescription for shit and that most of the communist "theory" that's built up under various schools, be they Luxemburgism or Marxism Leninism, is a bunch of debased shit that takes the worst parts of Marxism (i.e. the vague utopian aspects) and is responsible for the death of millions and the death of the transformative potential of the modernist project, forever guaranteeing the forces of capital and reaction their respective places.
Step 5: realize that the teleological model of historical progress is a meme and that looking to 19th/20th century political movements (esp those of a high modernist bent like fascism or communism) is dumb when our condition has transformed so drastically that most of those thinkers are obsolete. Reading the classics of political theory from Plato onwards is essential but blindly subscribing to old ideologies isn't.

>>10742709
Too materialistic.

>>10742797
>Mussolini was a socialist before getting quicked of the party for racism and being bribed by the nobility, so he stopped writing about communism when he got kicked for corruption

That's bullshit. He abandoned socialism because WWI showed that workers in every country inevitably put their nation ahead of some abstract idea of a transnational workers class. By his time socialism was outdated.

>>10742709
I don't know man, they are pretty alike.It just one of then express nationalism and the other is internationalist.

>>10742709
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

>>10742892
>tfw effective rebuttal

>>10742871
seeeee il cazzo zi

>hurrrrr communists and fascists were the same

Read Nolte instead of saying that.

Anti-materialism
Anti-collectivism
Anti-egalitarianism
Anti-progressism
Anti-bolshevism
And so on.

Yes, they were (counter-revolutionary YET) revolutionaries, yes, they were anti-bourgeois, yes, they were anti-capitalists, but their goal was CONTRARY to communists' since their primary goal was to destroy bolshevism.

>>10742901
>he thinks that rebuttal has defeated me

save me, based snyder!

>>10742709
read Guenon, then Evola, hang around niggers for a day or two, hit the gym for a week, take up salsa lessons the next, then finally go mountain hiking.

then you'll understand everything that's wrong with ''communism''

>>10742838
Unironically this is correct.

>>10742871
what do you mean when you say that marxism/communism is materialistic?

>>10742910
Replace proletariat with the specific ethnicity and bourgeois for ethnic enemies and communist literature reads like a fascist screed

Fascism: share the wealth with your own people/country
communist: share the wealth with everybody but wealth is a bad thing and everybody deserves to be poor except officers

>>10743123
Wow, a common limited friend-enemy distinction? You've convinced us, anon.

>>10743168
Wow it's almost like you chose to take the most vacuous way to misinterpret what I said.

>>10743059
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism

>>10743168
>Genuine equality means not treating every race the same, but attending equally to each race’s different needs

>>10743168
>The Jewish race, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilization. The cheap prices of its commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all Chinese walls, with which it forces the barbarians' intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the Jewish mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilization into their midst, i.e., to become Jewish themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.

>>10743168
>Unity is a great thing and a great slogan. But what the nation’s cause needs is the unity of Fascists, not unity between Fascists, and opponents and distorters of Fascism

>>10743168
>An army of the people is invincible!

>>10743168
>Fascism is the riddle of history solved, and it knows itself to be this solution
This is actually a lot of fun, so I could continue but I imagine you get the point now, pseud.

>>10743168
>>10743359
>There is often talk of human rights, but it is also necessary to talk of the rights of one's Volk. Why should our people walk barefoot, so that others can travel in luxurious cars? Why should some live for thirty-five years, so that others can live for seventy years? Why should our people be miserably poor, so that others can be hugely rich? I speak on behalf of the children in our nation who do not have a piece of bread. I speak on the behalf of the sick who have no medicine, of those whose rights to life and human dignity have been denied.
One last one

>>10743293
Then I apologize. What was your point, then?

>>10743320
>>10743336
>>10743349
>>10743356
>>10743359
>>10743372
Again, so both movements seek to benefit a limited in-group, only one for laborers/proletarians and the other an ethnic group, at the expense of the Other. So what?

>>10743402
I'm saying if you change the subjects they're more or less identical. There's this false dichotomy of communism/socialism as diametrically opposed to each other, on complete opposite ends of the political spectrum, when it's more proper to describe them as rival siblings and children's of mid to late 1700s classical liberalism, both firmly rooted in the revolution of 89.

>>10743402
>>10743417
I also want to go through my copy of communist manifesto and replace the words in it as I did in the earlier posts and just post it on some site like stormfront or /pol/ just to fuck with them.

>>10743032
you need to die you fucking ant

>>10743417
>There's this false dichotomy of communism/socialism

I'm guessing you meant 'communism/fascism?'

But again, the treatment of the Other is a rather superficial (depending on who you ask, I guess) aspect of both ideologies, no? Just like the other poster noted in invoking Nolte, Fascism is anti-communism in every other aspect -- anti-materialist, anti-egalitarian, anti-Modernist, and so on. In fact, as far as the topic of the Other goes, Marxism rejects the bourgeois as representative of the oppressive past/present, whereas Fascism attacks the Jews for representing the rapidly modernization path to the future.

>>10743432
Relax.

>>10742709
the doctrine of fascism touches on it. interesting read anyway

>>10743465
you're a fucking subhuman

>but da communists killed millions.

>>10743465
>Fascism is anti-modern
You have to be 18 to post here kiddo. Fascism was never about to reverting to pre-modernity, rather it was meant as a path forward for reaction, a marriage of traditionalist values with a forward looking, mechanized/speed driven (Italian fascism and to a lesser extent Nazism share the Modernist avant-garde obsession with the aesthetic of speed) ideology that sought to recreate man in an idealized archetypal image similar to that of the Soviet new man. While the term "totalitarianism" is often abused and is pretty spooky, there is no doubt a strong correlation between fascism and communism in that they represent two distinct takes on western modernity.

>>10742838

Good post. Can you expand on how the failures of Marxism-Leninism contributed to the death of the modernist project? I never considered those two movements to be very deeply intertwined.

>>10743570
>TO SAVE BILLIONS

>>10742709
"Public need before private greed" (National Socialist slogan) >>> "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" (Communist slogan)

Communism's main contention with capitalism is that the bourgeoisie takes value created by the proletariat for themselves, and that if the workers could realize the dependence of the bourgeoisie on the proletariat the proletariat could revolt and keep the wealth for themselves. As long as the bourgeoisie is consuming more than they produce and the proletariat are producing more than they consume, the proletariat are slaves to the bourgeoisie.
Now that's all well and good, I don't support the bourgeoisie either. The difference is I don't support the proletariat instead; I oppose oppressors, but that doesn't mean I support everything the oppressed do. I have two issues with communism. The first is that as long as the quality of people is not addressed, the oppressor-oppressed dynamic will remain and become inverted. My other issue is that "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" necessarily entails the very slavery communism claims to oppose, with those who have more needs than abilities becoming the new bourgeoisie and those with more abilities than needs becoming the new proletariat.

>>10744056
>The first is that as long as the quality of people is not addressed, the oppressor-oppressed dynamic will remain and become inverted.

What do you mean here?

>>10743465
Fascism is expressly something new. It embraces the modern ideals of history progressing towards something even if in lip service it rejects them. Look at how what scant few fascist authors actually state unequivocally that it was the historical event of WWI that broke old European institutions and paved the way for their ideology, or at least so they thought.

Likewise fascism is never about reverting to old forms of pre modern political/economic systems. In this sense it's reactionary in that it strides against the current zeitgeist, but not to push back to an earlier time, merely to change the direction of the flow forward. It also seeks its own, end of history, exemplified in a strong, centralized state, which is able to create a nation which can last forever (the thousand year reich).

As far as materialism goes look into what little economic writings the Nazis created. They read like hastily rewritten socialist theory, most likely because they were. They're all about redistributing wealth and property for the good of the Volk, etc. all subject to the authority of the state in the interests of what's best for the nation and its people.

>>10744070
Oppressed revanchism

At least communism tried to help people, fascism is just for assholes. Communism is too good for this world

>>10744092
This, both the USSR and Nazi Germany reflected the dream of the administrative utopia, a cornerstone of modernist thought.

>>10744138
better b8 next time please

>>10743123
Except it doesnt.

>>10744776
Read his follow-up posts. It does.

>>10743320

Needs as defined and understood by who, exactly?

Communism is terrible and that has been proved by most of the communist rulings in the 20th century. Communism destoys religion and aims to replace it. It destroys religion, tradition, family, anything that stands in the way of it molding a new man. The destruction of culture and tradition is the saddest part.

>>10743293
>>10743320
>>10743336
>>10743349
>>10743356
>>10743359
Why did you make so many different replies?

>>10744883
And although fascism may seek to make a new man, it is at least reactionary and aims to be traditional. To support the family and the cultural traditions.

An aside. I wish modern 'communists' were actual communists who knew what they were on about. Rather than the socially liberal and free handouts kind that you see around uni campuses

>>10742797
>Mussolini was a socialist before getting quicked of the party for racism
is this true? as far as i know Mussolini didn't fall for the race meme until he had to when aligning with the Germans

>>10744960
>Is this true?
Yes, it is, read some history books.

>>10745048
>Mussolini had been a leading member of the National Directorate of the Italian Socialist Party (PSI),[5] but was expelled from the PSI for advocating military intervention in World War I, in opposition to the party's stance on neutrality
seems like your meme history is wrong, sorry :(

>>10742709
fascism contrasts with communism mostly in the fact that it's staunchly antirational and views society and people as organic parts of an organic whole, an ideology based on solidarity that transcends class, communism is rationalist, views everybody as an economic unit, and is highly iconoclastic
tl;dr communists want to destroy the soul and the bitter things it brings and fascists want to make it strong and embrace the struggle

>>10745114
how is any of that stuff anti-rational

>>10745134
fascists believe in the importance of myth and the icon while communists want to destroy those things because muh science muh rational thought

>>10745175
Are you sure you're not confusing word-police liberals and communists?

>>10742709
not that Evola would consider himself fascist

>>10745175
myth and icon are very involved in communism for the purpose of ensnaring proles, just look at the propaganda

Any critique of communist ideals must fall back on the tired argument of human nature.
>Ah, but people are greedy, proud, they seek advantage over one-another. Doctors would never accept that janitors have as much as they!
This unending struggle between left and right is really a struggle between optimists and pessimists. Between those who have experienced the goodness and the potential of man first-hand, and those miserable wretches who have only seen indifference and egoism.

Communism will win.

Why don't mommy and daddy sleep together anymore?

>>10742838
fucking /thread

>>10745175
Are you sure you're not strawmanning the fuck out of communists, because of a personal agenda? I really enjoy reading religious texts, Greek and norse mythology.

>>10745450
how about
>equity is not virtuous

>>10745515
Well, I don't believe in Sirens of Titan -esque enforced equity.
The problem is when a system is practically designed to accelerate and exacerbate wealth inequality.
There's lots of lesser 'virtues' that might be circumstantially violated in a communist arrangement. But these are mere details, one virtue appears as the single most significant: To not allow any member of society/tribe/species starve and wither away in destitution.
Note how this is a negative statement. Its about preventing an evil. It doesn't make sense to pursue minor virtues while there is still major evils

>>10745450
>Any critique of communist ideals must fall back on the tired argument of human nature.

Or the flawed model of history, or Marx' misunderstanding of economics, or the persistence of religious and tribalist thought.

>>10745450
How about this?

I would like to own my house, my car and the clothes on my back. I would like to be able to start my own business if I have a good idea and think I could provide goods or services that people would want to buy. I don't want to be completely enslaved economically to all of humanity. I want there to be space for individuals to do their own thing.

This is, arguably, only a moral preference, but that also goes for the idea of equality/equity as the one cardinal virtue.

in commonism daddy does not fuck me

>>10745625
> I want I want I want me me me me me me
Capitalism has made you a sad, antisocial creature. You've forgotten you're part of a larger whole. Belonging isn't enslavement.

I don't want communism because I want to control you, to take your freedom away. I want it because I know that if we put our head together, in true fellowship, with true solidarity and compassion, we can come up with a better arrangement for all of us, certainly superior to the invisible hand's arrangement, where 99% get the invisible finger up the ass.

>>10745642
I'm not a capitalist, I just want every individual (including myself, yes) to have an economic space of their own. Communism does not afford them this opportunity in the slightest. No private property and no trading allowed.

>>10745642
>It's not slavery I just want you to do only what I want instead of trying to get ahead
Nigga what?

>>10745653
you don't need these things to be happy.

I know this is awfully arrogant and overbearing. claiming to know what's best for another man.
But you're stating these principles in a reaction to an imagined communist dystopia, where your individuality is annihilated, you are citizen 897535 who lives in housing unit 62903028. This doesn't have to be the reality of communism.

Imagine a small-scale local commune, where you know your neighbors and you convene with them regularly to make the economic and political decisions together. Where your expertise and hard work make a real difference for the community, you are needed and appreciated. You face the challenges and hardships together and enjoy the good times together. What's so fucking utopian about that?

>>10745674
>you don't need these things to be happy.

i also don't need communism to be happy, fuck off faggot

>>10745677
You're angry. That's not what I want.

I wouldn't want to forcibly change your way of life. I don't want to force anyone to do anything.

That's why I despise capitalism. The system where you are forced to participate all the while believing you are free. Coercion veiled as freedom. "free" to choose anything you can afford, "free" to work anywhere if you were given education and the labor market is favorable enough. etc, etc..

>>10745674
Except the average man doesn't understand economics in the slightest, let alone how to run a manufacturing concern.

>>10745701
If you think you aren't forced to participate in communism you're an absolute moron

>>10745674
>you don't need these things to be happy.
You do, though. Which is why communism has always failed

>>10745701
Except it is a staunch plank of communist societies that they cannot exist while capitalist societies exist. They must destroy them by necessity. That's part of the USSR's foreign policy, they felt threatened just by the existence of other systems in operation and look what happened, they eventually collapsed because they were unable to compete with the "inferior" system of capitalism (not that it's not without its own faults and failures, it's just a better system for humans to operate under).

Likewise any capitalists in a society that suddenly becomes communist, socialist, really any member of any "oppressor" class in a revolution of the oppressed must by necessity be disenfranchised from their property, wealth, means, etc. both to fuel the revolution (seizure of noble and church lands in French Rev, seizure of any suspected capitalist property during Russian rev, seizure of bank treasuries during Nazi invasion of Europe, etc). Such fierce, world shaking movements can never allow people to simply exist as they are. You either conform or you're made to conform. Those unable to do so are purged by the state as traitors to the Revolution, enemies of the state, etc.

Such systems might be morally acceptable if they developed in a vacuum but the immense brutality they bring about in their birth pangs make them intensely immoral systems. Perhaps if they were to naturally develop out of and from old institutions, whereby all peoples slowly willingly adopted them (not to say that colonization of Africa and Asia by the new world was justified or a slow outgrowth which forced capitalist society upon them) but strictly speaking in the west I cannot ever accept such violent means of change.

>>10745728
Like I said previously, you either believe in people, in their potential, or you don't. Its a sad vision of humanity indeed that we are mostly imbeciles tended to by our benevolent (Hahah!) masters.

>>10745733
To the extent that there's no more free land on earth for you to run off to and start a new tribe, and that living solely off the land is a lost skill for most of us, participation in any society is the only sane choice.
Now, a system that presents you with fake choices (get rich or starve to death trying) is coercing you, and a system that involves both your ability to contribute and your basic needs is a system which includes you.

>>10745739
I entertain historical arguments. Do you have any?

>>10745762
To fuel the revolution and to secure the "security" of the new order. Sorry.

>>10745767
>I entertain historical arguments. Do you have any?

The abject failure of every communist experiment thus far, yes. Also you cannot make such sweeping arguments as "you do not need those things to be happy" for every human being.

>>10744960
>the race meme until he had to when aligning with the Germans
This is a meme Italian fascist try to make. He was a racialist and a antisemite way before allying with Hitler.

>>10745786
>This is a meme Italian fascist try to make. He was a racialist and a antisemite way before allying with Hitler.
So was everyone else back then. Most allied powers were blatantly white nationalist, but that didn't matter for their ideology.

>>10745134
Fascism and Nazism in particular hold the enlightenment as the start of degeneracy. They're entirely anti-rational.

>>10745795
anti-rationalism, not anti-rational

>>10745792
>So was everyone else back then.
It wasn't the core of their ideology, and no, not everyone wanted to kill inferior races and not everyone hold their ethnicity as the best on Earth.
>White nationalist
Now this is a term that doesn't really make sense. There were no "white nationalists" back then because "white" wasn't an identity you mutt.

>>10745795
Doesn't mean their very placards and system don't heavily borrow from enliideals. I didn't see them resorting to feudalism or espousing divine right of kings. They expressly talk about the nation OF and FOR the people, an intensely enlightenment/post enlightenment idea. Hitler rejected any communication with the deposed German Emperor and intensely disliked the old aristocracy.

>>10745798
No, they're anti-rational as well. Hitler started a war he couldn't win and wanted to kill all Slavs for some reason. Mussolini was a bumbling retard who couldn't even win a war against the disorganized Greece.

>>10745806
Enlightenment ideals

>>10745762
> it is a staunch plank of communist societies that they cannot exist while capitalist societies exist. They must destroy them by necessity.
I disagree and you have failed to provide any evidence of this. I'm arguing about communism, not the USSR. I've already stated that I value historical arguments, but for us to derive general truths from history, the examples must be generalize-able.

> they eventually collapsed because they
were engaged in a pointless cold war against a ruthless and unscrupulous adversary, who exploits a working class for cheap labor with which to produce war machines.

> A revolution of the oppressed must by necessity (...) the immense brutality they bring about...
This is merely one possibility of a transition to socialism. You guys are always painting the worst possible scenario. If had some means of production for every strawman I got...

I don't believe is smashing capitalism. I believe in making it obsolete. Outgrowing it. Form independent, self-sufficient communes until one day you've bought the last thing you'll ever need from a capitalist establishment.

>>10745806
>an intensely enlightenment/post enlightenment idea.
Wrong. It's an entirely romantic idea. Hitler took it from Wagner and company and Mussolini took it from Mazzini.

>>10742797
>Mussolini was a socialist before getting quicked of the party for racism and being bribed by the nobility, so he stopped writing about communism when he got kicked for corruption
No, he didn't. He was kicked out for supporting the right wing from an accelerationist viewpoint but then he unironically supported them and became Fascist.

>>10745805
>It wasn't the core of their ideology, and no, not everyone wanted to kill inferior races and not everyone hold their ethnicity as the best on Earth.
The Americans, Brits, and Russians did, and they formed the core of the Allies. Churchill ran a campaign to keep Britain white, which would be regarded as fascist today.

Also the Italians allowed Ethiopians and North Africans membership of the party.
>Now this is a term that doesn't really make sense. There were no "white nationalists" back then because "white" wasn't an identity you mutt.

Yes it was, you fucking revisionist moron. See my comment on Churchill. Writers like Hume and Hegel already wrote about the white race in the fucking 18th and 19th century.

>>10745782
I'll repeat myself here, for us to derive general truths from history, the examples must be generalize-able.

Prove that the 4 or 5 attempts of at building communism represent every possibility and every angle that we need to consider.

> you cannot make such sweeping arguments as "you do not need those things to be happy" for every human being.
I actually tend to agree. I qualified that statement very heavily. I mean that people cling to these capitalist ideals, but they are so small and insignificant compared to Liberty Equality and Fraternity.

>>10745823
>romanticism
Which also has strong roots in enlightenment thought like liberalism and individualism

>>10745834
> I qualified that statement very heavily. I mean that people cling to these capitalist ideals, but they are so small and insignificant compared to Liberty Equality and Fraternity.

Freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and tribal identity are actually part of the slogans of the french revolution, and your attempt to dismiss them shows that you are only interested in "freedom" and in a very narrow and predefined sense, which most people will find oppressive.

>>10745828
>The Americans, Brits, and Russians did, and they formed the core of the Allies.
So this is the power of internet history...
I didn't know the Americans, Brits and Russians run death camps for niggers and Jews. The more you know...
>Yes it was, you fucking revisionist moron. See my comment on Churchill. Writers like Hume and Hegel already wrote about the white race in the fucking 18th and 19th century.
And Kant as well. That doesn't mean "white" was an identity. People identified with their nation, not their race. You're a dumb mutt.

>>10745822
If you're rejecting the historical fact of the USSR as a communist society than you're disingenuously presenting yourself as being interested in historical arguments. Whether you agreed with their conception or execution of communism doesn't disinherit them as children of communist thought and one example ofit put into practice. Any attempt to claim they weren't communist is fallacious.

Their inability to compete and utilize their workforce, despite markedly more harsh conditions than contemporary capitalist societies is a damning evidence of their inefficiency and inferiority of a communist system.

By all means go innawoods and make your own system. But accept that failure is your fault just as much as success is. I'm curious how your experiment will go.

>>10745835
Fallacy of composition. Christian dogma has roots in Aristotelic thought as well but that doesn't make it Hellenic.

>>10745834
It is quite literally insanity to pursue an idealistic utopian fantasy that repeatedly causes the deaths of millions while simultaneously failing to achieve any of its promised goals. What's the cut off, how many permutations must be attempted before you accept that it's a failed ideology? Or will you literally not be satisfied until every harebrained, half baked concoctionis tried?

>>10742838
But this isn't fascist, it is if anything a critique of fascism.
You illiterate fuck.
>>10742871
Materialism is all there is.

>>10745858
I mean yes it very much is. Christian thought as it is today is very intimately tied to Hellenistic thought, as is much of the west. That's just ignorant to claim otherwise.

>>10743032
REEEEEE REEL MEN NIGGR KIKE SLUT BITCH ASS TRADISHUN!!!!!
Suicide is painless.

>>10745849
>I didn't know the Americans, Brits and Russians run death camps for niggers and Jews. The more you know...
Being white nationalist =/= running death camps. Although the Americans and Russians actually did run concentration camps, and the Russians did attempt to purge non-Russians under Stalin. Of course a tankie would deny that, but hey. And of course there's segregation in America and all that.

>And Kant as well. That doesn't mean "white" was an identity. People identified with their nation, not their race. You're a dumb mutt.
So white was an identity for important writers but not for common people (for no explicable reason), despite the fact that European powers have always given one another preferable treatment (even in war) and the American foreign and immigration policy had racial inequality in mind. You're talking out of your ass.

>>10745218
That isn't a criticism, you fucking moron.

>>10745866
You are only making yourself look like an idiot, anon. Maybe go back to a nice reddit echo chamber or something.

>>10745841
For fuck's sake, what make you think I'd want to limit thought, speech, religion, etc? it's like "woah, he doesn't like capitalism, therefore, Stalin and gulags and shiet! those are the only two alternatives!!!!11!!!1one

>>10745864
It has ties != It is. Stuff like Volksgeist (which isn't a simple "nation of and for the people"), the rejection of the rationality, and Mussolini's vitalismo are entirely romantic, just as the idea of trinity is entirely Christian.

>>10745894
u can't even handle milo giving a comedy talk at berkeley without threatening a riot, why would anyone trust u with free speech? get real

>>10745894
>For fuck's sake, what make you think I'd want to limit thought, speech, religion, etc?

Because that's what all communist attempts thus far have done, and Marx advocates doing so under the guise of "revolutionary terror". Lenin applied this and had the Cheka kill everyone deemed reactionary.

And given the absolute hysteria of the modern left, we have absolutely no reason to trust you to uphold things like freedom of speech or religion.

>>10745894
Even if Stalinism didn't exist, you just have to listen to the rhetoric in any left wing community.

The left has no morals, only tactics. Every single time i see a "moderate" leftist arguing to stop attacking free speech because "being against it makes us look bad" makes me kek

>>10745896
If strict tenets of its thought are rooted in a thing than it's illogical to say it isn't at least descended from said thing. Much of what romanticism has to say on nations derives from enlightenment thought on a government serving the people's interests.

>>10745850
> Any attempt to claim they weren't communist is fallacious.
and that's not what I'm doing, which I hope you can tell. Just as we have a wide berth of varying implementations of capitalism today, so too can communist ideals be implemented in any number of ways.
The USSR was a very authoritarian state, and Stalin was an actual psychopath. This is the ~political~ aspect of that nation. When I talk about communism, I'm talking about ~economics~.

My Politics are essentially anarchist.
>But accept that failure is your fault just as much as success is.
this is exactly what I want.
As opposed to "The failure of the corporation you work for is not yours, you can just get a new job, just as its success is also not yours, but belongs to it's shareholders."

>>10745464
do you believe in god?

>>10745868
Good God you're stupid. The Americans, Brits and Russians didn't have the concept of the Lebensraum and Volksgeist in their ideology.
>So white was an identity for important writers but not for common people (for no explicable reason)
The fact that they wrote about it doesn't mean that they identified with it.
>For no explicable reason
What is romanticism? Why did Mazzini want to reclaim the Terre Irridenti if racial identity was important? You don't know what you're talking about.
>despite the fact that European powers have always given one another preferable treatment
You mean the preferable treatment of starting a billion war for nationalistic reason? Why did Napoleon want to conquer foreign land if he identified as "white" and not as french?
>and the American foreign and immigration policy had racial inequality in mind
That's because America was already composed of immigrants who abandoned their national identity and they formed another one on the basis of being all from Europe.
Mutt.

>>10745859
Without using dramatic words to elicit an emotional response, how many people must die under capitalism before we accept that it is a failed system?
Oh that's right, when people die under capitalism we blame it on THEM! oh, that's much easier! Us communists should adopt that tactic!

>>10745922
>It's illogical
>He says, while committing the fallacy of composition
Ok anon.

>>10745902
>>10745917
strawmen.

Facism is "almost communism", but nationalist.

>>10745935
>Good God you're stupid. The Americans, Brits and Russians didn't have the concept of the Lebensraum and Volksgeist in their ideology.
No, which is why they weren't national socialist, but they were still white nationalist because the two are two different things you illiterate fucktard
>The fact that they wrote about it doesn't mean that they identified with it.
Hume explicitly identified with it. You're just backtracking because you got called out for knowing jack shit about the concept of "white"
>You mean the preferable treatment of starting a billion war for nationalistic reason? Why did Napoleon want to conquer foreign land if he identified as "white" and not as french?
What i mean is that they treated European citizens with greater respect than non-Europeans. One was at least human, the other not.
>That's because America was already composed of immigrants who abandoned their national identity and they formed another one on the basis of being all from Europe.
A white American identity, because they heavily restricted all immigration from non-europeans. The thought that America always freely allowed immigrants is revisionist nonsense and didn't happen until the 1960s.

Also im not American, stop trying to fit in when everyone can see you're a redditor.

>>10745949
>get called out on outrageous bullshit
>s-strawman!

>>10745947
You're arbitrarily declaring ideas to be spawned ex nihilo which is itself its own fallacy. Acknowledging the descent of something is not improper and you're now committing the fallacy fallacy by just stating I'm wrong from a perceived fallacy rather than addressing the actual missteps in my reasoning or countering the points I'm making.

>>10745967
you're not talking to that pink haired SJW you love to hate. You're talking to me. If your ideology is superior, if capitalism is the solution to the human condition, than you should be able to disprove me easily without resorting to disqualification by association.

>>10745927
>>10745927
Communism is the political application of socialist economics. It makes no sense to divorce politics from communism but to continue to refer to it as such.

Go on and live your anarchist fantasy. It'll quickly collapse into a leader in practice even if you don't verbally acknowledge one as such, see Makhno in the Free Territory.

>>10745978
i already replied here>>10745907,which you conveniently ignored. I'm not talking about SJW's, i'm talking about the violent suppression that always follows communism and is inherent to its theory.

>>10745986
Very few idealistic movements and their advocates like to acknowledge the methods which are necessary to ensure such rigid minimal goals. Robespierre's heirs and all.

>>10745949
i'm not criticizing any particular leftist, just their ideology

>>10745989
Always makes me laugh when the left accuse people of being "conspiracy theorists" when they accuse them of trying to subvert traditional structures.

Of course it's not a conspiracy, they do it openly and then play dumb when you bring it up

>>10745907
>>10745986
I genuinely missed that one. It's this parallel conversation that's going on. sorry.

My political strategy doesn't involve people having to trust me. I don't want votes.

The history of communism is horrific. The history of Capitalism is worse, if for no other reason than for the simple fact that it is longer.

The ideals are solid. If you don't think we can do better you're just a pessimist, like I said way back at the beginning, here >>10745450.

>>10745963
>No, which is why they weren't national socialist
Thanks for disproving your own point that thinking your own ethnicity was the best on Earth and wanting to dominate everyone else being normal in that time.
>Hume explicitly identified with it. You're just backtracking because you got called out for knowing jack shit about the concept of "white"
One writer identifiying with it doesn't mean jackshit as I've already explained you absolute moron. If we were to translate your cretinous idea to modern day that would mean that modern day whites identify as "citizens of the world" because a couple of people in their elites do. That's how absurd you sound.
>What i mean is that they treated European citizens with greater respect than non-Europeans.
That doesn't mean jackshit. We're talking about what came first: nation or race. It's painfully obvious which one it is.
>A white American identity, because they heavily restricted all immigration from non-europeans.
That doesn't contradict my point.
>Also im not American
You may not be an American physically but you're a mutt in the brain.

>>10745999
>My political strategy doesn't involve people having to trust me. I don't want votes.
See we cannot trust you on non-violence, and this is not a personal accusation; some of the most violent revolutionaries (like Robespierre) started out as relatively pacifistic, but were more and more corrupted by power as the revolution went on. Same with Trotsky when he ordered Voline executed. The truth of the matter is that attempts at communism, starting with Lenin, have always required extreme and ferocious intellectual terror. The current attitude of the far left gives us no reason to think that a next revolution (whether it occurs or not) will be any different, quite the contrary.

>>10745999
>The history of communism is horrific. The history of Capitalism is worse, if for no other reason than for the simple fact that it is longer.
not just longer... accelerating too

>>10745984
The claim is that it is possible to apply socialist economics with a political system without authority.

> your anarchist fantasy. It'll quickly collapse
I also want to say this: Anrcho-Communism is the hardest alternative. By far. It's hard to arrive at a consensus on issues that affect everyone. Its hard to solve your own problems as opposed to delegate them to your 'elected leaders' and unelected CEOs. The world is on fire out there, but that's not your problem. it's not your ~job~. You can watch netflix all day, it's your day off!

I want communism BECAUSE it is harder.

>>10745990
both of the comments I replied to there were strawmen. what the actual fuck are you talking about?

>>10746025
I look forward to seeing your little experiment spectacularly fail then.

>>10746019
Regarding violent revolutions,
quoting myself from >>10745822
> I don't believe is smashing capitalism. I believe in making it obsolete. Outgrowing it. Form independent, self-sufficient communes until one day you've bought the last thing you'll ever need from a capitalist establishment.

>>10746036
you could make the difference. I really believe that if we had pessimists like you actively contributing, that we could really make it. That's why I waste my time having these conversations.

People ARE good enough. I know this for myself because I have seen it.

>>10746045
I reject any bastard child of the revolution of 89. Hard pass from me.

>>10746029
it's not a strawmen that leftism has no morals. Where's the marxist moral code? There's literally none, only goals and strategies

>>10746051
this makes me sad, but ultimately my faith is unwavering. In the end it will be communism or extinction. And we are much too good to allow ourselves to die off.

>>10746066
We get it. Communism is your religion.

>>10746059
Here's the moral code: No member of the tribe left behind.

Here's capitalism's code: "Well, he made made career choices and even worse investment decisions! He deserves to die of starvation under a bridge! That's Just How Things are™"

>>10746066
Real communism has yet to be tried!

>>10746070
sure, something like that.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" And communism is nothing but the institutionalization of humans doing good by one another. So yeah.

>>10746072
>Here's the moral code: No member of the tribe left behind.
that may be your personal moral code, congratulations but it has nothing to do with marxism. Also, who is part of your tribe? Do anti-revolutionaries count as well or do they get the bullet?

>>10746078

>>10746081
"to each according to his need", then. You want me to play the part of the canonical communist, I'll play along. It's all the same.

I help my fellow man because it is good and right to do so, I don't need a fucking profit motive. That's another way to rephrase it.

>>10746091
>>10746073
>>10746070
>>10746036
I want you guys to know that I treasure these cheap shots and dismissive one-liners immensely. It gives me hope. Maybe as you see your ego defense mechanisms kick in you'll start to realize how untenable capitalism actually is.

>>10746110
Everything post enlightenment is untenable. There's something grossly wrong with the modern world and I blame the Germans and German Idealism.

>>10745450
Believing janitors should receive as much as doctors is fucking retarded, human nature aside.

Anglo and Teuton ruined the world together and continue to drive us all off the cliff.

>>10746120
that belief comes from the twisted idea that work should be rewarded with luxury.

You need to realize that working to better your life and that of your fellow man is it's own reward, and that material luxuries are just dead weight for the individual who lives the joy of communal living, of true belonging.

>>10746110
Maybe one day you'll stop being driven by ressentiment and pseudointellectualism and you'll start studying history and economics. Cheers.

>>10746130
What exactly do you think bettering ones life is? The ability to acquire luxuries is a betterment of ones life. And fucking lel at a communist disavowing materialist things.

>>10746130
It's extremely hard to become a doctor, much more a good doctor, it takes almost a decade of effort, if the economic reward for becoming a doctor was the same of becoming a janitor (who needs what, a couple of weeks of training at most?) much fewer people would become doctors, only the people who are absolutely passionate about it and don't care about money. That creates, you guess it, a shortage of doctors.
No communist country has applied the "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", they all realized it's bunk and eventually implemented a different system of reward, you may think that's why they failed, but you'd be wrong, that's why they didn't fail harder.

>>10744883
Mussolini acted extensively to reduce the Catholic Church's control in Italy, he never managed to outright marginalize it but did the best he could in that period of time. Nazism spit in the face of religion. As far as family goes, I would bet if the two survived they would have functioned much more closely to the Communist central authority figure that is more important than any other unit in the country.

In the end Fascism/Nazism and Communism aren't that far apart in practical reality

>>10746110
I was listening to Peter Hitchens speaking at a university and he mentioned that while he lived in Russia during the soviety union, you had to order from a resultant a day ahead of going. They sold most of their stock at blackmarket prices between people they knew, only selling at the low communist prices to people who legitimately ordered.

>>10746142
The distinction is a simple matter of degree. Luxury is excess, happiness comes from being content with enough.

When I talk about bettering life, I don't mean continuously like an infinite spiral of consumption. I'm talking about the maintenance and qualitative improvement of the means for survival, and, yes, some degree of comfort. In all things, moderation.

>>10746165
honestly, incentive fallacy is way too much at this point. It's like starting all the way back from the beginning again.I can't.

You don't know what people are, you only know what capitalism has made them.

>>10745882
Why would I care what I look like to a Nazi? You'll be looking like roadkill soon enough.

>>10746335
>had to order from a resultant a day ahead of going.
GASP! I have to think ahead and make plans??? I lose the luxury of blindly getting on my car and driving around and choosing what to eat on the fly?? I abhor a society that would condemn its citizens to such cruelty!!!!!!!!

>>10746379
>Making up fallacies because you're losing an argument
Fuck off back to r/communism
God at least old /lit/ had real Communists that actually had some sense of reason

>>10746386
Like in Charlottesville? Oh wait

I responded to >>10746120 here >>10746130.
Here, >>10746165, you're ignoring what I said, and giving me some 6th grade - level bullshit about how money is what motivates people to do things.
Incentive fallacy (a term I did not invent, although I am flattered) is not even believed by capitalists anymore!! 'Capitalists' here meaning actual owners of the means of production, not the "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" who feel the need to defend them. The science of incentive is (surprise) a complex and emerging one. This fucking hogwash that about people not becoming doctors if it weren't for money is just some shit your grandpa (and mine) would say at the bar to sound wise and down-to-earth.
What about all the people who would love to be doctors and would be excellent at it, but they can't afford college? How about that fucking "incentive"??

>>10745969
I've already addressed how your point is fallacious. You're not even trying to listen.
>Ex nihilo
I didn't say it spawned from nowhere, infact I said the opposite. Reread my posts.

>>10746379
>>10746469
>fallacy!!!

what are you even trying to dispute? that people do NOT prefer leisure and entertainment over hard-work and countless hours of study and bad sleep?

>What about all the people who would love to be doctors and would be excellent at it, but they can't afford college?

If they're actually good they can get a scholarship.

>>10746543
I presume that (shitty) graph is from an economics textbook by someone named Crusoe. Economists, the scientists who rely most heavily of psychology to make their claims, but who know the least about it.

"Gathering coconuts", as in the example is one type of labor which is
* physical
* menial
* presumably done for a capitalist who will take the profits in exchange for a flat-rate wage.

These aspects define the attitude of the individual. Being a doctor, to continue our ongoing example, is very different

* minimally physical. Even a long surgery isn't as exhausting as the equivalent amount of time doing farm labor.
* Very intellectually demanding
* regardless of economic circumstance, saving lives is an enormous motivation in and of itself.

Very different form of work > very different attitude.

> hard-work and countless hours of study and bad sleep?

oh, you've switched sides? You're attacking capitalism now?

> If they're actually good they can get a scholarship.
> everyone has equal opportunities
don't make me fucking laugh. Student loan debt is in the trillions nowadays. where's all the scholarships to cover those? Or are all these debtors fucking retards by your measure?

>>10745762
>That's part of the USSR's foreign policy, they felt threatened just by the existence of other systems in operation
is this a joke? you can literally swap out America with USSR in this sentence and it would be true.

You would condescend to others "the joys of communal living" and assume to "put our heads together" in forced redistribution?
I would sooner give a swift kick than a single crust of bread to the commie uni student in this thread

>>10746395
Are you being purposely thick or...? You had to bribe the owner to get in - otherwise he would say it was full. The prices were so low under the communist system that they sold most of their stock out the back. That's why you couldn't go in and get anything on the day, not because of some ingenious communist system.

>>10746655
>commie uni student
They are the worst. All communists are bad, but American uni students are the worst.

>>10746655
are you new? see what I wrote half a thread ago >>10745701

>>10746684
Dude.. fine. This anecdote is so utterly specific and pointless. I'll say it again, as is my lot in this wretched life, I'm not defending the USSR. It sucked. You couldn't even go to the restaurant! it sucked. You happy now? Would you like to address my actual arguments?

>>10745218
>as long as we only talk about economic class, profit, salaries and production, and as long as we believe that real human progress is determined by a particular distribution of wealth and goods and that, generally speaking, human progress is measured by the degree of wealth or indigence - then we are not even close to what is essential
seems pretty critical to me
>>10746718
The great thing about the modern west for scum like you is that you can leach off the exploitative system with no investment in the form of welfare and government housing, so you may enjoy the fruits of communal living yourself without the need to persuade others if you wish :^)

>>10746740
I don't even know what you're trying to say to me. If I live in the projects I should be happy as a communist cause it's basically the same thing? Something something obamer wuz burne in kenya??

>>10746761
Firstly, Barack Obama is a Kenyan Muslim unfit for presidency due to his african status. Secondly, coercion is absolutely necessary to form communism in a pre-existing state because there are many people who will oppose you. But I suppose this is all for the good of the people and I'm just a slave to the man, right?

>>10746499
If nazism and fascism draw from romanticism which in turn draws those same threads from enlightenment thought, how are they not themselves traced back to enlightenment thought? I simply don't see any point for your arbitrary cutoff at romanticism, this and no further.

You're accused of ex nihilo because you refuse to acknowledge that the trail doesn't stop at romanticism and proceeds back to the thing you're petulantly denying it does.

>>10746791
But Obama is white.

>>10746641
Only because America is corporatist and not pure capitalist. In a pure capitalist system communist enterprises and experiments would be allowed according to the free market, but the communist enterprises could not allow the outside free market to exist.

>>10746727
>claims to respect historical arguments
>derides historical examples of communism in practice as useless and anecdotal
These stories are widespread across the whole eastern bloc. They're ubiquitous to anyone who lived under soviet regime. Walk outside of your safe, cushy western bubble and go talk to those people. They'll gladly tell you how much communism sucks in practice, regardless of how nice it sounds in theory.

>>10746804
Lebensraum, Volksgeist, Vitalismo, Superuomo (in Mussolini's sense), the cult of the physical for its sake and the rejection of rationality are romantic concepts who come from a rejection of the enlightenment, not enlightenment ones. It isn't hard to understand dude. They began during romanticism so there's no point in arguing that they come from the enlightenment, otherwise we could go back in time at will without any criteria and claim, for example, that the Sumerians gave us WW2 through the inscrutable movements of history.

>>10746791
>Firstly, Barack Obama is...
BUAHUAHAHUAHUAHHAHAUHAUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAUHAHAHAHHAHHA

>>10746820
yea. I'm beat to be honest. This is the one huge downside to anonymous forums, you have to repeat yourself constantly because no one knows who said what.
Sure Bro. USSR proves communism is impossible, meanwhile, economic crashes and the absolute state of global capitalism today proves nothing. cheerio.

>>10746615
>economics textbook by someone named Crusoe

and this is a literature board, jesus

>>10746834
I'm not speaking as broadly as you're implying. I'm saying that in regards to fascist political theory, the core tenet of where they believe authority of the state derides and whose interests it serves, is connected in a chain from romantic notions which prompted national wars of unification all the way up to enlightenment ideals of a nation serving the people. The only differences were refinements of who constitutes the people moving forward chronologically. Is that simple enough for you, you doddering fool?

>>10746872
fascists believe in an oversoul, a race memory, a collective unconscience, they believe in Spirit as matter in motion, they believe the Fuhrer is a holy embodiment of the Will to power and they believe they can quite literally enrich the spirit of the race and reincarnate dead kingdoms by making blood sacrifices and through warfare. They’re idealists in ever sense, half the SS leadership were occultists, Hitler and Himmler were obsessed with it. They make use of black propaganda, which is not rational, nor is it related to how enlightenment regimes function. In Adorno’s sense of just using the intellect to dominate subjectivity i suppose they could be Enlightenment spawned but they’re really irrationalist vitalists who believe all kinds of things thay have nothing to do with enlightenment regimes like the Revolutionary French, Napoleon, Victorian England, America etc

>>10746917
>black propaganda
???

>>10746917
Half that shit is inaccurate. Virtually none of it was responding to the point I was making. If you don't want to bother engaging in a dialogue anymore just tell me and stop wasting my time. I've got better shit to do.

>>10746615
you're just avoiding the question over the preference between leisure and work, and pretending becoming and working as a doctor can be easy and painless.

>people will work out of love dude

Some people. Some. A minority, I'd say.

>>10743417
>These groups of people in out society have conflicting material interests exacerbated by our current economic structures, this will create problems!
Vs
>These people look different from me, this is a problem
Fascists are overemotional children

>>10746982
>I've got better shit to do.
except you don't

>>10747046

>>10747044
You can blame the left for that, since they are completely obsessed with identity.

>>10747058
>it is the left's fault that fascists are retarded!

>>10746940
black propaganda is propaganda that is both untrue and is hidden, grey propaganda is partially true or could be true but is partially admitted to, white propaganda is true but is used maliciously or is used in a misleading manner and is completely admitted to by whatever group of people are creating it. Goebbels admitted to making use of the first two and always hinted at the second, the Soviets and the US have done the same historically israel as well, namely grey propaganda about spying on the US and Liberty incident.
>>10746982
which parts are inaccurate? Are you trying to talk about Spanish and Italian fascism? What exactly would you dispute? I don’t really care about what you were talking about, i was talking about what i wanted to talk about you’re just an anonymous racist internet poster with a 1 SD above average iq on a pedo-anime image board website. Why would I care about your time? I hate you and have no respect for you. Anyway what was it that you didn’t like? i can talk about what i said because i find it interesting and you think its wrong.

>>10747044
>>These people look different from me, this is a problem
It's 'these people are raping and robbing and murdering in absurd numbers'. But of course you don't want to hear that, and the statistics are lying, and institutional racism and etc.

>>10747081
>hurr fascists are dumb for valuing identity
>unless they're black, latino or native, then identity should be cherished and is very important
It's hypocrisy

>>10747034
is there anything I could say that would convince you that money isn't the prime motivator?

There's a lot of ongoing basic income studies, preliminary results point to the conclusion that given the opportunity people will work towards some goal or passion, not laze about and smoke drugs as capitalists predicted. We'll see.

>>10747093
>There's a lot of ongoing basic income studies, preliminary results point to the conclusion that given the opportunity people will work towards some goal or passion, not laze about and smoke drugs as capitalists predicted. We'll see.

Yeah, and we have Cuba show us that doctors produced that way are both incompetent and often unemployed.

>>10747089
>projecting views on other people

>>10747104
Im not projecting, that's what happens. You have far leftists proclaiming that "identity is irrational" but then go and support black nationalists because of pure ideology.

>>10746858
The person you replied to wasn't me - who you were talking to earlier. Not that it matters anyway

>>10747102
[citation needed] cause my information of cuban doctors is the opposite.

also I shouldn't have to point out the difference between a fucking STUDY with control groups, etc, and random-ass anecdotal evidence.

>>10747118
Proof? Even if these people do exist, it is incredibly retarded to assume anyone who replies to you hold those views.

>>10747131
>random-ass
Argument ended.

>>10747133
Just go to places like /r/anarchism and you'll see black nationalists. You even had bullshit like Melanin Theory being upvoted in a major socialist subreddit.

Historically you have groups like the Black Panthers who were openly praised by communist intelligentsia and students.

>>10746872
>I'm not speaking as broadly as you're implying.
Ok. You missed my point from the start then.
>The only differences were refinements of who constitutes the people moving forward chronologically.
Very simplistic and reductive point of view desu sempaitachi.
>>10746917
This bumbling retard is not me btw.

>>10747139
Show me some links and quotes instead of random posts on the internet

>leftist praising a group with socialist leanings
Color me susprised

>>10747174
>leftist praising a group with socialist leanings
Yeah Im sure the Leftists would praise the White Man's Socialist party

>>10747174
>leftist praising a group with socialist leanings
So white nationalists with socialist leanings would be supported by leftists?

>>10747179
So no actual examples but projections? Okay

>>10747190
dont weasel around, you know damn well that white people aren't allowed racial collectivism but blacks are.

There are arguments for why this is, ie. the blacks are oppressed, but the fact itself is not up for dispute.

Cant you guys just argue honestly ever

>>10747187
Let's not indulge in hypotheticals that will never happen
>But national socialist...
No

>>10747093
what if not enough people want to become doctors?

>>10747204

It's not as if black panthers or maoism were socialist in any sense.

>>10747213
hence the term socialist leanings. Maoism is communist though

>>10742709
Look at communist countries, that's all the proof you'll ever need.
The starvation meme is a meme for a reason.
Communism goes against human nature.
With communism you punish high achievers and reward low achievers. Not only this but people want or need different things.
People are inherently different, equality is a lie as we have already discovered.
It doesn't make sense as a concept, only to brainlets does it sound appealing but they eat that shit up, everyone is equal and we all share stuff???? That sounds great!!!!!
The bourgeouise is the cause of our problems? Wow ok lets get rid of them! A tangible solution!
Fascism works somewhat because it trades freedom for success, indoctrinate the public to love their people and country (a good thing) and then have them work for the good of eachother and shit gets done, while keeping some forms of meritocracy.
Although this starts to decline long term as people yearn for freedom and less control by the state. Same thing in that regard to communism.
All systems of governance will collapse in large population sizes however, over enough time, for the cycle to repeat. Rome is our fate, and so on.
The best system is to have a tiny tribal ethnic population who work in harmony with eachother and the land and take care of their family, up too 300 the human capacity and then to split when too large and move away.

To use nature and protect nature while they live, and not to warp nature or bend it to our will as we do now.
Nature ALWAYS WINS. You don't need to be a hippy faggot, since nature is cruelly amoral and unconscious. However nature will NEVER lose. Do not fuck with nature. We are NOTHING in comparison to the force of life and death.

>>10742709
Jordan Peterson

>>10742912
Thanks based Synder

>>10745826
>No, he didn't. He was kicked out for supporting the right wing from an accelerationist viewpoint but then he unironically supported them and became Fascist.
tfw i could follow the same political path

>>10749229
but do you have jaw to do it?