/lit/ - Literature

>This is what Homeric warriors looked like
This is nothing like what I imagined wtf

>>10730184
They also chucked 200 kg stones at one another.

I was looking into the Orphic Hymns the other day.

It looks like this is the only recent English translation.

The Orphic texts are lacking in English I think. Does an English collection of the fragments even exist?

I'm not sure why this is.

>>10730300

Do i need to read the Iliad and Odyssey before anything else?
How gay is the symposium in the original?

Illiad reminds me of a shonen anime desu

>You will never play boardgames with bare-chested Minoan maidens while they spin you new garments

>>10730336
>Do i need to read the Iliad and Odyssey before anything else?

Homer is a sort of background noise present in every text of the age.
This should come as no surprise. Ancient education was done through Homer.
Think of Christian allusions in early Modern texts, but even more pronounced.
You'll want to read it eventually, but you don't absolutely need to begin with it.
Don't obsess over reading order.

>>10729961
fuck off, i dont care about your old people "knawledge", you are teenage brainlet with an acne

Reminder that Cicero is right about everything.

Tell me about the turtle.
Why does it wear the string?

>>10730791
Lotta swastikas for a hired turtle-wrangler

>>10730819
that’s a sauwastika its not the same as a svastika

>>10729961
Is there an eastern equivalent to the Greeks flowchart? I know the Chinese chart exists but it's more shotgun rather than tactical in its recommendations.

>starting with the greeks
>have now read four secondary source books with a fifth on the way
>still have yet to read any actual ancient greek

>>10730868
But why?

>>10730856
Was being pedantic part of your plan?

>>10729961
>>https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0086/04/1476211635020.jpg (Essential Greek Readings)

Don't greentext links you fucking retard. Especially don't add text after the line. It makes it so that you have to manually highlight it rather than double click open.

Format like this:

Essential Greek Readings:
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0086/04/1476211635020.jpg

>>10730910
I think you'll live

>>10730868

At some point you will need to jump into the deep.
Have you found something you love yet?
Tragedy, comedy, philosophy, history, myth?

CARTHAGO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofPdMbXzUQ

>>10730944

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYCGJ0eCUvw

>>10730895
>>10730926

Well first I read

>Hellenism - Toynbee

As to get the history down, and while it was fascinating at parts it didn't really have the linear history I was looking for. Next was

>Mythology - Hamilton

for obvious reasons followed by

>The World Of Odysseus - Finley

because it was very short and looked promising. Lasty was

>The Trojan War A New History - Struass

which was fantastic. I plan to find next a more straight forward, textbook like approach for Greek history to fill the gaps left by Toynbee (though I'm not sure what yet, any suggestions?). Once I finish that, then I'll read the Illiad and Odyssey, and make my way from there. Probably with Hesiod, though thats still pretty nebulous.

>Wenched

>>10730956
>I plan to find next a more straight forward, textbook like approach for Greek history to fill the gaps left by Toynbee
If you don't mind something short and condensed, I'd consider 'Ancient Greece: From Prehistoric to Hellenistic Times'.

>Overall the text of the book serves as a good brief overview of Greek history that is impressive in scope, topic, and clarity. It is well-organized, well-written, and generally easy to read. The interspersed sections on society, art, and religion break up the narrative of political history in a way I expect will be welcome to the general reader, but when M. resumes his narrative he is always careful to reorient his audience. The book will be useful as a text book for a semester-long course on the history of Greece from Mycenaean to Hellenistic times or as one of several textbooks for an even more general "Caves to Constantine" survey.

>>10730956
I'm reading a history of Greece to the death of Alexander the great by J.B. Bury.
It's great, with a focus on politics and events over art/philosophy/myths.
I am making an ancient Greek timeline to go with it since a strictly linear history is difficult to write about (different timelines overlapping).
I'm also reading Plutarch's Greek lives as I read about each person. It it's significantly more insightful than when I read it with very little historical knowledge..

Imagine!

>>10730986
Looks promising, thanks

>>10730997
I was considering the same book, as it is mentioned in one the OP charts, but from what I can tell its 956 pages? That's pretty hefty, and while I'm not opposed to reading massive tomes like that, I'm not sure in my case it is warranted. I'll still give it a closer look, though.

>>10731066
The edition I have is just over 700 pages, with probably 50 pages that are just pictures.
It's not very complex writing and it reads pretty fast.

>>10731066
I also thought

>The life of Greece : being a history of Greek civilization from the beginnings, and of civilization in the Near East from the death of Alexander, to the Roman conquest - Durant, Will, 1885-1981.

looked good too. Again, that is some 700 pages though. I do like that it goes all the way to the Roman conquest though.

>>10731138
I would just read a short history then read Herodotus, Thucydides and Xenophon to flesh it out

Can anyone comment on the use of the gerund in this clause:
>nihil hic munitissimus habendi senatus locus

>>10730184
Imagine watching thousands of these guys fight each other from the tall walls of your fortress

Best translation of the Iliad?
Fagles, Lattimore, or Fitzgerald?

Should i just learn Latin and ancient Greek for reading purposes?

What's the goriest, edgiest classic?

>>10731705
The goriest is probably the Iliad

>>10731693
I've enjoyed my time learning them. It will take years to read with any fluency though.

>>10731723
Im also learning Spanish (B1-2 level atm if that means anything).
I suppose that would help a little bit with the Latin?

>>10731705
The massacre of the Athenians during the Sicilian expedition as told by Thucydides was some of the most dramatic non-fiction prose I've read. Not very graphic, though.

>>10731733
It will probably help with vocabulary. I don't know about the grammar though.

>>10731667
All of those are good, you won't go wrong with any of them.

>>10731799
I think I'll go with lattimore, didn't like the great gatsby and fagles seems normiecore.

>>10731667

Fagles and Lombardo are highly regarded.
Lattimore comes in third.
Fitzgerald is no longer widely read.

>>10731850
Not the same Fitzgerald.
kek

>>10731705

>What's the goriest, edgiest classic?
The Eumenides by Aeschylus is spookier than the spookiest horror movie.

>>10731705

Not exactly what you're after, but The Shield of Achilles is kinda like a B-movie, and is full of pulpy fanservice.

>>10731893
Fagles is so juvenile.

who >reck here?

Anyone know why Loeb is re-releasing Seneca's tragedies?

The translations are from 2004, but I see a pair of coming releases in 2018. Something get updated?

>>10732564
>The translations are from 2004, but I see a pair of coming releases in 2018. Something get updated?

that pic looks so cozy

While OP's pic has the "Complete Greek Tragedies" versions for the plays (pic related), are Oxford translations as good or better? I'm also thinking about supplementary information like notes, introduction, etc..

>>10731010
im on nofap bro (nearing 4 mo.)

>>10733291
u must have hella low t bro

>>10733291
I used to wank all the time, like ten times a day even after fucking my girlfriend. But since getting a job, I can barely get relaxed enough to get horny. Even now, I can't understand you fucking weirdos. What do you think will happen, again? You'll get some weird new charisma and pheromones that will attract the ladies?

>>10733295
I reckon all high t. men will wank heaps.

>>10729961
Read a general book on Greek mythology by Richard Buxton and now I'm reading the Iliad translated by Lattimore with a companion book. Gonna read the Odyssey with a companion book next and then Hesiod's Theogony and Works and Days. Afterwards was planning on reading the works of the Nine Lyric Poets. Someone recently recommended The History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides. Any other anon think it's worth reading?

>>10731693
You [most likely] won't be able to learn it on your own.

>for reading purposes
If we're talking "reading purposes" as in casually reading easy greek authors without a vis-à-vis translation, and I mean authors like Lucian, Xenophon or Plutarch, we're looking at a good 5 years of constant, nearly daily practice. Reading Homer without a dictionary is considered the final feat, most teachers would say it requires a decade or so to get there.

>>10729961
>Socrates was gay

>>10733359
So were a large number of Roman Emperors and Greek Kings including Agesilaus of Sparta

Redpill me on the Eleusian Mysteries.

Redpill me on the Eleusinian Mysteries.

>>10730383
Wrong

>>10730868
>>10730956
Time completely and utterly wasted

>current reading
Mythology (Hamilton)

>future reading
Ancient Greece History (first book in swtg2)
Learn Greek (JAOCT)
The Complete Sherlock Holmes

And then maybe the Illiad

>Questions
What do the colours in the charts mean? Is there a key?

>>10733516
>shutitdown.gif

>>10733829
>What do the colours in the charts mean?
If you can't figure that out by yourself, I don't think there's any point of you starting with the Greeks.

>>10733516
have a book
>Ritual Texts for the Afterlife Orpheus and the Bacchic Gold Tablets (Graf and Johnston)

Do you guys find Latin or ancient Greek more rewarding?
I enjoy language learning because I like long term projects with slow reliable progression. I want to pick one up.

>>10734079

I find Greek more rewarding since it is more alien.
Latin vocab comes fairly easily, not so with Greek.

>>10734577

Not to mention that Greek uses a different alphabet.

>>10730944
why listen to some youtuber babbling for 15 minutes when you can spend that time reading the actual essay that he is poorly imitating?

http://biblio3.url.edu.gt/SinParedes/08/Weil-Poem-LM.pdf

>>10733280
can't comment on how the translations compare but the editions in your pic have only very slim introductions and a handful of notes limited to the transmission of the texts. if you want critical commentary then the oxford and penguin ones will be more suitable.

>>10730336
The Symposium is mostly a meme.

>>10733849
Thanks, anon.
Just finished downloading it.

>>10734906
Thanks anon. Oxford it is!

>>10735086
>>10733280
I'm a loeb fag, I found it most literal and the greek next to it helps,

though loeb sits rightfully in the intermediate section, those who know greek latin perfectly just read the greek text with app crit, those who know very little about the history-culture and language read penguin abridged versions

I do love loeb though, it is heavily underrated

>>10733349
I just bought those same two iliad books.

I've been reading The Consolation Of Philosophy by Boethius recently, and i'm not sure if people would regard that as being too medieval instead of ancient classical but w/e. There is one part of the work i've been thinking a lot about recently, the part in prose 4, book 4 where Lady Philosophy claims that the criminal who is rightfully punished is happier then the criminal who is never punished. I'll post the part below for discussion sake:

(...)'That wicked men are happier when they pay the penalty for their wickedness than when they receive no penalty at the hands of justice. I am not going to urge what may occur to any one, namely, that depraved habits are corrected by penalties, and drawn towards the right by fear of punishment, and that an example is hereby given to others to avoid all that deserves blame. But I think that the wicked who are not punished are in another way the more unhappy, without regard to the corrective quality of punishment, nor its value as an example.'
'And what way is there other than these?'
'We have allowed, have we not,' she said, 'that the good are happy, but the bad are miserable?'.
'Yes.'
'Then if any good be added to the misery of any evil man, is he not happier than the man whose miserable state is purely and simply miserable without any good at all mingled therewith?'
'I suppose so.'
'What if some further evil beyond those by which a man, who lacked all good things, were made miserable, were added to his miseries? Should not he be reckoned far more unhappy than the man whose misfortune was lightened by a share in some good?'
'Of course it is so.'
'Therefore,' she said, 'the wicked when punished have something good added to their lot, to wit, their punishment, which is good by reason of its quality of justice; and they also, when unpunished, have something of further evil, their very impunity, which you have allowed to be an evil, by reason of its injustice.'
'I cannot deny that,' said I.
'Then the wicked are far more unhappy when they are unjustly unpunished, than when they are justly punished. It is plain that it is just that the wicked should be punished, and unfair that they should escape punishment.'
'No one will gainsay you.'
'But no one will deny this either, that all which is just is good; and on the other part, all that is unjust is evil.'
Then I said: 'The arguments which we have accepted bring us to that conclusion. (...)

Now while the logic and argumentation for why a punished criminal is "happier" then the unpunished is fairly simple and understandable, i can't help but wonder how someone can come to the conclusion in the age where horrible punishments like crucifixion existed. There has to be some form of disconnect between the metaphysical idea of "justified punishment" that allows the justification of some of the most grotesque ways of killing another human being. How can he conclude this when he knows what actually happens to a person who meets his end with nails struck through his wrists.

>>10735821
Seven-inch nails hammered through the wrists of the victim so the body weight can be supported by the bones followed by, executioners breaking the legs of their victims to give no chance of using their thigh muscles as support. Once the legs give out the weight would be transferred to the arms, gradually dragging the shoulders from their sockets. The elbows and wrists would shortly follow. The victim would have no choice but to bear his weight on his chest. He would immediately have trouble breathing as the weight caused the rib cage to lift up and force him into an almost perpetual state of inhalation. This is how his life ends, dying from suffocation, in excruciating pain.

I guess i've just read too much Stirner but i seriously can't understand how anyone can look at the reality of punishments in 500AD and still justify the horrible deaths. Was Boethius himself happy when a strong cord was tied so tightly around his head that his eyes bulged out followed by him getting beaten to death with a club? (Boethius own answer to this would be "no" since he was wrongfully convicted of his crimes, but the punishment was still laid out and was just in the eyes of the law).

What do you think boys, have i misunderstood something or can i just not understand the full metaphysical plain of platonism/neoplatonism? What are your thoughts on ancient Greek ethics in relation to punishment and violence?

>>10735821
>tfw Loeb's edition of Boethius is super sloppy even with the latin text

Any other bilingual editions of Boethius or just the Consolations? What's the best translation?

bump

>>10735821
>>10735827

The key is the rightfulness of the punishment.
Was Boethius himself happy to be punished you ask. No, but he would not have seen it as rightful punishment either.

>>10736762
>Bump replies are not necessary.

>>10729961
does Guy Debord have anything to say to any of the Greeks? I think only Diogenes would entertain his idea of Spectacle, but is there another? would Debord be considered an eastern mystic babbling about Maya?

What are the best companion texts to Plato?

>>10729961
What translation of Ovid should I get?
Also what are the best translations for attic tragedy and Aristophanes.

>>10735854
>What's the best translation?

Relihan's translation is held in very high regard by many. It attempts to reproduce the rhythms and meters of the original Latin poems through English accents. It works surprisingly well. Unfortunately, the author chose to mess around with the original to remove sexist language.

>>10730336
I literally questioned my sexuality for a week after reading it.

>>10736831
>to remove sexist language

>>10730356
this pic unironically triggers me

I wonder what you'll get out of Platon without being an aristocrat. It's like reading Epicurus if you don't have any friends, isn't it? As in it doesn't really fit with the philosophy.

>>10736810

As always, there are no perfect answers, but I would look at 'Plato' by Andrew Mason and 'Reading Plato' by Szlezák.

You can find a review for the first of these suggestions here:
http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2011/2011-01-37.html

>>10734916
Elobarate please unless you're shit/funposting, are you saying it's more popular than it deserves to be out of the dialogues?

>>10736821

>What translation of Ovid should I get?
I'd start with this.
It's a nice verse translation with great notes.

>>10736845
>I wonder what you'll get out of Platon without being an aristocrat. It's like reading Epicurus if you don't have any friends, isn't it? As in it doesn't really fit with the philosophy.

No problem.
I'm an aristocrat of the soul.

If you were Longinus, would you become the personal philosopher of Zenobia even if it meant your eventual death?

>>10736861
It's also a pretty literal translation. It's what I read next to the Latin text to understand harder passages.

How do you finish the Greeks?

>>10736895
>How do you finish the Greeks?

Master Damascius' Problems and Solutions Concerning First Principles.
Damascius is the final boss of Greek.

>>10736888
60 is a fine age to die

Any recommendations on secondary-source Greek history? I can’t find the Oxford history that’s recommended anywhere, but I still want to read something.

>>10736895
You finish when you die

>>10736911
This >>10730997

so will the charts in the op be all that I need for Nietzsche?

>>10729961
my gf is more lit than me. she has 3 copies of plato's republic but said she's only read one. I'm wondering which translation is best:

WHD Rouse
Grube/Reeve
Sterling and Scott

please advise

>>10737537
i believe the bloom translation is touted as the best.

Thought you guys would appreciate this find. Pope leather bound translation of the Odyssey, it's gorgeous and only $25

>>10738395
holy fuck where do i get that

>>10730866
Start with Journey to the West, resume with Dragon Ball z

>>10738401
Found it at a local thrift book shop. They have really nice books for really cheap

>>10738395
Looks nice. Too bad it had to be the Pope translation.

>>10738395
Super fucking jelly, I wish the thrift bookshops had that kind of stuff here.

so, we are going to see greeks for a while they've told me

>>10732296
>Reck
Pope is definitively the best translation as far as prose and imagery is concerned, Lattimore Is good for beginners.

>>10738702
>Prose
The absolute state popefags

>>10738702
>pope
>prose

lol wtf

>>10738702
YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT PROSE MEANS AND YOU'RE RECOMMENDING TRANSLATIONS TO PEOPLE?

GO BACK TO ******

I just ordered some plays by Plautus, has anyone here read them?

Has anyone here read anything by Károly Kerényi? Is he worth the read?
>>10740225
I've read some. The Two Menaechmuses is the best of the ones I read. Some of his stuff is pretty silly, so go into it with the right state of mind.

>>10738702
you know i used to think the stupidest conversations on 4chan were about programming because it's normally a bunch of people who don't program but have incredibly strong second-hand opinions about what programming languages they would use if they ever got around to it. then i started browsing /lit/ and it turns out it's the same thing but with translations of homer. in conclusion pope has the best prose but python has the best brackets.

>>10740251
Cool thanks, I ordered mostellaria (the haunted house) and rudens (the rope). I'll have to check out menaechmi after if I like these 2.
I'm looking forward to the silliness actually, it will be a nice change from reading Cicero.
I'm also excited as he is a major influence on Shakespeare.

Did Alexander have the right idea?
Start with Homer and skip Aristotles.

>>10740511
Aristotle was Alexander's tutor though

>>10740511
He wasn't even that big of a fan of Homer, if I recall correctly. Homer wasn't appreciated then, and it was only until recently that people started to think he was THE classic storyteller. Everyone used to like Virgil everywhere.

Aristophanes is quite funny lads. Enjoyed him putting Euripdes on blast for being a cuckold degenerate in The Frogs.

>>10740539
>Homer wasn't appreciated [in 4th century BCE]
>Everyone used to like Virgil

what the fuck am i even reading

>>10740556
I meant in contemporary times, I didn't phrase it well. Most Renaissance people liked Virgil before Homer.

But Homer wasn't particularly loved by Alexander, I know he was appreciated because he was still circulated.

>>10740539
I don't think you recall correctly at all. Alexander idolized Achilles and tried to be just like him.

>>10740567
>Homer made up Achilles
Wew

>>10730358
>ywn partake in the Aryan-Mycenaean invasion of Early Neolithic Farmer Minionian Crete, slaughter the bull worshipping men, abduct their bare-tittied wives and daughters, and have your conquest immortalised in the allegory of Theseus and the Minotaur

>>10740573
He had Aristotle made a special copy of the Iliad that he carried with him on all his campaigns. It was his favorite book.

>>10740560
you still appear to be saying that 4th century greeks didn't care about homer which is inane (homer was never irrelevant in the ancient world), and that alexander didn't like him even though all the major accounts of his life have him obsess over the illiad and believe that he's descended from achilles. yes those could be later exaggerations but if you insist on rejecting the only sources we have then you simply can't say anything about the guy's relationship to homer.

>>10740527
I'm sure he learned a lot, but he didn't care too much about this philosophy stuff, not his cup of tea. Saying he skipped Aristotles is kind of ridiculous when it's his teacher, but he wasn't very interested in his ideas I heard.

From what I know, Homer wasn't seen as the father figure of Greek culture well after Alexander's death when Greek scribes in Alexandria first made a standardised text of Iliad. His influence probably began after scribes were made to copy his works - like what happened with Epic of Gilgamesh.

I didn't try to say he was irrelevant, but I've literally never heard Alexander the Great loving Iliad that much. I'm happy to read about it if you have sources.

>>10740616
My reddit is showing.
>>10740587
>>10740599

>>10740616
There were likely standardized texts of the Iliad before 500BC. The catalog of ships was quoted in the dispute between Athens and Megara over salamis. This wouldn't be possible if there wasn't a widely accepted standard text.

>>10740616
You can read Arrian and Plutarch

>>10740635
Sorry I meant 600 BC

>>10740616
>Homer wasn't seen as the father figure of Greek culture well after Alexander's death

then why did they settle legal disputes between city states by referencing the catalogue of ships? why is homer mentioned in some way in pretty much every platonic dialogue? pesistratus of athens produced the standard text of the iliad in the sixth century, not alexandrian scribes.

>I've literally never heard Alexander the Great loving Iliad that much. I'm happy to read about it if you have sources.

his ancient biographers, arrian and plutarch

>>10740616
>From what I know, Homer wasn't seen as the father figure of Greek culture well after Alexander's death when Greek scribes in Alexandria first made a standardised text of Iliad

Homeric standardization was already happening much earlier than that.

>The Athenian tyrant Peisistratus and his dynasty were associated with some standardization of Homer's poems in the sixth century

>Ancient commentators on Aristotle

Some day I will have all of these

>>10740699
the skittles of the ancient world

Will we be remembered in two thousand years?

>>10730345
>>10730956
>>10733829
>>10740599
>iLLiad

>>10740730
it makes more sense, it even starts with a plague

Post (free) resources to learn latin, i dont care if its classical or ecclesiastical. Does the Vatican have any free stuff to learn? I just wanna get started desu.

>>10741118

This site is great for generating vocab lists:
http://bridge.haverford.edu/

These can then be brought into something like Anki.

If you want to learn Latin, you'll want to do something like 10 to 15 minutes of vocabulary work each day. Other things too, but this will be part of it.

>>10741118
Thelatinlibrary.com/bennnett

Just Google Latin grammar and you'll find lots of resources.

If you find that you like it I highly suggest you get a textbook with exercises like wheelock's Latin.

>>10736859
No, the Symposium being a homo book is mostly a meme. It's referring to male-male platonic relationships mostly.

I read the republic about 6 months ago and thought it was enjoyable even though it was stupid. But then I read the politics by Aristotle and was bored to death.

I assume I am right in saying that engaging with these works logically gets you insulted by pseuds who want to use them as launching pads for stupid unfalsifiable "literary critiques"

>>10741187
>engaging with these works logically

What does this even mean?

>>10741187
>I assume I am right
Nice logic there, STEMfag, plato btfo.

>>10741187
>In the Seventh Letter, Plato famously declares that philosophy is a lifelong process involving a number of stages, none of which takes a written form, and it is for this reason that he, Plato, has not confided his philosophy to writing. [46] This is indirect confirmation that Plato’s dialogues are not primarily an exposition of doctrine and that they must have had a different aim. So once more we find ourselves asking, what are Plato’s dialogues?
https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/5791

>>10730184
Nah, more like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendra_panoply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar%27s_tusk_helmet

>>10741302
That's more of a special night raid type helmet

Guys. I think I'm in love with the ancient world.

>>10736951
As long as it's charts that have Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides. Also read the Bible too.