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10712054 No.10712054 [Reply] [Original]

I have been unable to reconcile the hard problem of consciousness and the measurement problem in quantum mechanics with materialism.

First, if we assume an atom isn’t conscious and a human brain is conscious, it should be theoretically possible to add unconscious atoms in the right order until we reach a point whereby a certain configuration of atoms (let’s call this configuration “X) gives rise to the appearance of phenomenality. But that also means there’s a configuration of atoms almost identical to X (let’s call this configuration “Y”) that has no consciousness whatsoever. Imagine moving one of Y’s atoms so that it becomes X; how could a such an infinitesimally small change in the arrangement of unconscious matter switch on the lights and traverse that explanatory chasm from nothing to something it’s like to be that particular being?

Second, von Neumann showed that interacting systems should become entangled. Starting with a superposition (S), the interaction of S with a measurement apparatus M would result in a superposition. But we could think of another apparatus M0 that measures M and S, and we’d still have a superposition. We could keep adding more measurement apparatuses, including our eyes as a photodetector that measures this chain of measurement apparatuses, and we’d have no reason to assume, according to von Neumann, that we would not have a superposition. We can keep on going, including not only our eyes, but our optical nerves, up until we get to the brain, and we are left with a brain/measurement apparatus/system that is still in a superposition. Since we never observe a superposition, this chain needs to stop somewhere.

The materialist cannot explain why collapse happens. Von Neumann proposed that the interaction between mind and matter causes matter to evolve probabilistically, according to Born’s rule, and non-linearly. In other words, the mind causes the collapse of the wave function. But this would imply substance dualism, which cannot explain how mind could arise from matter.

But what if we’re creating these problems for ourselves by positing the existence of an entirely separate ontological class from mind, called matter. What if, akin to alters (personalities) becoming disassociated from the larger psyche in people with Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), we’re just dissociated alters within a universal mind-at-large?

On this view, wave function collapse occurs as a result of an interaction between an organism’s thoughts and the thoughts underlying the inanimate universe that surrounds it, rather than "matter".

This ontology – idealism – is internally consistent, solves the hard problem of consciousness and the measurement problem in quantum mechanics, and is more parsimonious than materialism in that it only posits a single ontological class: mind.

Counter arguments?

>> No.10712077

You didn't post any arguments, you just threw in a thought experiment and a supposition.
Are you Searle or something?

>> No.10712150

>>10712077
My point is that an ontology which reduces the number of ontological classes, as well as the number of inexplicable explanatory gaps, is preferable.

>> No.10712259
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10712259

There is no hard problem of consciousness if everything is consciousness

>> No.10712277
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10712277

>>10712054
Theres only one hard problem you have to worry about bucko: the existence of other minds.
>>10712077
>pic related

>> No.10712295

>>10712277
And why is that?

>> No.10712507

>First, if we assume an atom isn’t conscious and a human brain is conscious, it should be theoretically possible to add unconscious atoms in the right order until we reach a point whereby a certain configuration of atoms (let’s call this configuration “X) gives rise to the appearance of phenomenality.

This is already fact. It's not the density of neurons or astrocytes but the the way they connect; or rather do not: looping, twisting, skipping.
As can be seen in the Cerebellum, which has like 3 times as many neurons as the rest of the brain, and it is mindless.

>> No.10712605

>>10712507
It is not a fact that the "lopping, twisting, skipping" neurons and astrocytes gives rise to the appearance of phenomenality.

>> No.10712692

>>10712150
>an ontology which uses the abstract concepts I prefer is better than an ontology which uses ones I don't like
This is your brain on analytic philosophy.

>> No.10713293
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10713293

>>10712259
this

>> No.10713375

what if
s u b j e c t ~~~ i s ~~~ o b j e c t ?
???

>> No.10713472

>>10712054
Firstly you just don't seem to be appreciating that some particularly small changes could potentially result in large overall structural changes. Before you can even begin talking about something as abstract as "consciousness" ask yourself if you can even specify what's distinguishing the organic matter from the mere inert matter? All living organisms should be able to be split into two parts: the living parts and all the other parts.

Secondly you're dealing with alll kinds of queer hypothesises, not reality. The postulates of mechanical materialism just deal with codified spatial motion within space... a historical dialectical materialism would deal with temporal motion in time, i.e. evolutionary motion, since "dialectics" here applies to any process only modellable by a reflexive sentence, i.e. nonlinear processes. Self-reflexion is a law of motion which pertains all of nature; nature works upon itself and potiently grows in this way.

>> No.10713642

>>10712054
Just read Plato lmao

>> No.10714127

>>10713472
I have no idea how this pertains to the hard problem or the measurement problem.

>> No.10714198

>>10712054
>consciousness causes collapse interpretation
Literally Deepak Chopra-tier garbage

>> No.10714281

>>10714198
Not an argument.