/lit/ - Literature

Thatd called theory

>>10697105
because it denies reality. it is essentially an attempt to transform the human condition while denying divinity. it is an attempt at escaping contingency with man as his own god.

Not only has it never failed, it has never even been tried. Not only has it never been tried, it has never even been understood, since if it has been understood it would be inevitable and would not fail.

Vaporwave politics

Sparta was a successful communist state. The trick is having a slave class and a national goal.

>>10697119
>Sparta was a successful communist state. The trick is having a slave class and a national goal.
if there is a slave class then it fails at it's stated goal of liberating the proletariat, as it just uplifts one set of people and creates a new underclass in their stead.

>>10697105
Because it’s a system that involves dividing things equally, but then some asshole thought that he should be in charge of dividing it up instead of letting people just take their own share and that’s how you dictators

>>10697115
Why must it always come back to god with you people?

>>10697125
Well the slave class aren't citizens of the state.
Maybe slave class isn't the right term, but subjected people or something

>>10697130
because the idea of God is at the center of everything. whether or not you believe in one (im uncertain).

>>10697105
star trek is set in a communist utopia.

but seriously we don't have the opposite of communism because it will fail. we do have a hybrid of both communist and capitalist tendencies. pure capitalism has never been successful on this world as well.

>>10697119
GANG GANG GANG GANG

>>10697133
you're still just creating another set of proles that are "non citizens" but whose labor and life is sacrificed to the good of the state instead of the market. sounds dreadful.

>>10697105
When people say that real communism ahs never been tried, what they are realing saying is that "I'm a good person unlike those other people that tried if. I've read Hegel, Marx, Foucault, and Zizek enough. I'm an expert on Marxist philsophy, and I'll do it right."

First of all, the chances that somobody who actually believes that communism is good and is able to rationalize away all the pain and suffering it has caused is probably NOT a good person, and probably has all the pathologies that have manifested in the brutal communist dictators of the last century.

But even if they were good, even if they were a paragon of virtue, they would never have a chance to bring about the revolution and the true utopia.

As soon as they were well on their way, they would quickly be shot in the back of the head by a fellow revolutionary who would proclaim "You are a counter-revolutionary crypto-capitalist! I am a good person who has read Hegel, Marx, Foucault, and Zizek! I understand Marxist philosophy and will TRULY run the revolution!"

This will continue until your revolution or state or commune or whatever falls apart, just as it has 100s of times before, until the day where a young educated leftist stands up, points to your revolution, and proclaims "That wasn't TRUE communism!"

>>10697153
Yeah, it's dreadful. But it worked.

>>10697168
>killing people is necessarily wrong
good goy

>>10697177
it's not communism though

>>10697168
*really saying

fug

>>10697177
yes but I'm not sure it qualifies as a communistic ideal if it's just state run capitalism with foreign slaves forming the new proletariat. it seems to me that Sparta was just engaging in empire.

>>10697177
also Sparta had economic disparity

>>10697119
>>10697151
die faggot

>>10697178
it is.

>>10697130
Not the person you're responding to, but it would seem that given the universality of religion in human society & culture, any philosopher who denies its importance is doomed to irrelevance or worse, misunderstanding.

It's not at all surprising that a philosophy that (admirably) attempts to deny a metaphysical hierarchy would fail in practice, due to the necessity to create hierarchies. Not surprisingly, humans seem to prefer a corrupt hierarchy that claims to be metaphysical over a corrupt hierarchy that has no meaningful way to ground itself.

>Sparta was a successful communist state
The power of /lit/.

>>10697194
What about Hitler

>>10697194
regards, libcuck humanist

>>10697178
>>10697179
The realization that killing large numbers of people in the name of ideology is bad is quite literally what has given us a stable civilization. Every time we lapse on that truth horrible things happen that benefit NOBODY.

>>10697204
This.

>>10697105
>bigbrained shit
Materialist "philosophies" are the easiest ones to understand.

Some people are too smart to realize how stupid they are. They hold out hope for a centralized distribution of scarce resources because when you only look at the macro level it genuinely looks like it would be a more efficient method. It's only when you get down into the "plebeian" particulars of manufacturing and transportation of goods do you realize how inefficient such a system will always be. This is aptly called the "knowledge problem" of socialism. No sort of central agency or computer can account for the trillions of constantly changing variables that the free market takes care of by itself by "distributing" scarce resources with price.

>>10697204
But your post is pure ideology, and peace occurs because of oppression and power structures.

>>10697204
>>10697218

>>10697237
OMFG LE DIALECTICS

Go look up "Subreption".

>>10697105
What makes you think capitalism is working either? Shit's just dying slower.

>>10697247

The free market is working because we're all wealthier than we were 20 years ago. We didn't even have computers then because they were so prohibitively expensive.

>>10697254
>we're all wealthier than we were 20 years ago.

What planet are you living on? In the US, where I live, the middle class has shrunken to a fraction of what it used to be.

>>10697236
The free market dumps million of dollars on wifi connected juicers, virtual reality clothing, and tricycles for adults. It's terribly inefficient and should die in favor of decentralized proletariat controlled industries.

>>10697105
>despite
No, not despite. BECAUSE.

>>10697254
You do realize that if everyone is wealthier nobody is, right?

>china is to be the dominant economy of the world within this decade
>failed

inb4 real communism has never been tried

>>10697105
It does work at the community level, that has happened many times.
Well because every large communist revolution has been hijacked by bureacrats and resulted in a state. States do not work, there is no transition government between revolution and communism.
Also there are inherent flaws in communism in that is prescriptive, instead of trying to make the world better by getting rid of the bad things Marxism prompts it's adherents to attempts to arbitrarily make something good from something bad.
It's doesn't work like that, you just need to cut the bullshit and let the grass grow, if it takes a spark burn it down. This is why anarchy is the only way for revolution to happen.
>Inb4 anarchy has never worked.
Yes it does, the vast majority of all living is done in anarchy. Me talking to you right now is free of arbitrary hiearchial restrictions. Life evolved in the absence of stratified levels of authority and that is still true for most living. Only in the presence of human economies and governments do such things exist, even then they only dominate a small fraction of Life, with horrible results, mass extinction and despotism. That needs to stop and that is where anarchy comes in. Not has a doctrine telling us what to do. But an action of stopping things that should not be happening on a decent planet.

>>10697276

That doesn't make any sense. Wealth is measured in terms of standard of living and we are as species objectively better right now than at any other point in history.

>>10697284
>Wealth is measured in terms of standard of living
Try again.

>>10697279
>Totalitarian "not real" communism used as a means of becoming an efficient capitalist machine
Nice, fair play to them

>>10697279
That literally happened when Mao died and they started implementing state capitalism, you nigger.

>>10697254
Refinements in manufacturing processes have made computers cheaper. Real wages have stagnated for decades.

>>10697115
>>10697138
>>10697196
>muh Gub
>despite no serious contact between europeans and "heatens", claims for centuries that the "heatens" are nasty ppl
>1700s
>get rekt by trolls who presents empirical data that "heatens" are mostly kind and loving husbands and parents and don't cheat in business
>retcon by saying that they *akshually* are xtians
>India
>in the late 1800s, hinduism finally becames a religion for the sensible middle class
>various charities forms, decades before a certain albanian con artist was even born
>she finally get her shot at fame, because Failcolm Cuckerridge from BBC (oh, the irony) makes a shitty TV show
>finally the failed church can claim that she brought charity work to India
>when proven wrong, backpedal to another position
>also, constantly, relentlessly obfuscate other religion's concepts of the divine (*akshually* monotheistic)

>>10697236
>Some people are too smart to realize how stupid they are

I take this back. People are just stupid.

Like do socialists and commies really believe they can get everyone in mongrel america on the same page and that certain groups wouldnt want more or that another group should suffer because of past agressions? Lmao consumer and nihilist culture is probably for the benefit of the mongrel states.

>it's a "Young 18-25 years old American college kids preach about the benefits of communism" episode
we had it shoved upon us over here. It wasn't that fun for anyone

>>10697332
It's fairly easy to organize people across racial lines via the shared experience of work. Part of the reason the US government shit their pants about the Black Panthers were that they started joining up with Hispanic and white labor movements.

>>10697332
Also seeing as how fascists suck at organizing and are all backstabbers, this smells like projection of your own issues.

>>10697309
its spelled heathen you fucking oaf

>>10697332
>on the same page and that certain groups wouldnt want more or that another group should suffer because of past agressions?
You don't need to, and actually shouldn't. What needs to be done is to get rid of the structures and conventions that allow for unjustified authority and hiearchy in the first place, such as private property (inb4, not personal possessions ffs) and state structures. The hardest part would be getting ride of ecological fascism(by far the biggest problem)and patriarchy which wouldn't go away even if socialism was the norm, those are both results of particular kinds of centrisms and chauvinisms that need to be destoryed.

>people still actually think capitalism is getting better
Hahahah, oh boy are we in for a rude awakening in the west, holy shit. I don't know how we're going to deal with this without an actual organised movement. I feel bad for the proles in America, I really do, they've had decades of shitty propaganda on literally everything they consume.

>>10697119

>>10697105
Individual ego overpowers collective group-think

Because the masses are too dumb and weak-willed to actually do a decent revolution.

>>10697387
The reason I say this is people still may hate each other but if they can't organize beyond a lynch mob they aren't going to do very much damage. And if they can't collectively gain anything by doing so beyond settling petty tribal conflicts they probably won't do so if that have a rational head among them. If people do mobilise en mass it will probably be to crush an organization attempting to do anything wrong.
Violence is a potential part of every person, just as peace and morality are. The state or private power having a monopoly on violence or anything at all for that matter only make things worse.

>>10697177
It didn't work. Sparta was in a perpetual state of tension, the only way they dealt with the constant threats of revolt from slaves was to make all their male citizens soldiers. These full time soldiers didn't have time for agriculture and other crafts, so the slaves dealt with these things. This isn't a communist system at all.
On the political side, they had a dual monarchy.
Please stop.

I look at it this way - under a socialist economy, the state is obligated to give you a job and public healthcare, education, transportation etc. Even the worst socialist states effectively obliterated homelessness and unemployment.

In a free market society, it's all up to chance. If you're born into a wealthy family, you're good. If not, you're fucked if you don't land a proper job or if the job market is in a particularly bad place. You could lose everything if healthcare is privatised and you need meds etc.

Therefore, by pure probability, if you didn't know where you'd end up, a socialist economy is the correct choice. I don't care about a remote possibility of getting rich if I risk living in the streets.

Future revolutions will follow ethnic lines mostly. The idea that common working conditions can create a common consciousness beyonf racial faults is an enduring illusion without basis.

>>10697469
A market society is not incompatible with socialism. Your dichotomy is false.

>>10697387
I don't understand what you're saying.

>>10697501
I don't agree with market socialism. The basic idea of socialism is to replace market mechanisms with rational planning of production. Cooperative ownership is not socialized, it's just a slightly better form of market exchange. The undesired elements that proceed from capital accumulation are still present.

>>10697469
Then why did the population of former socialist countries embrace capitalism with glee? Why is it always people from from socialist countries fleeing socialist countries and not the reverse. If given the choice, people always pick a capitalist country.

>>10697392
what do you mean?

>>10697517
If people can throw rocks at each other but the only benefit is hitting each other with rocks, they probably won't bother.

>>10697332
Well, I'm a socialist but I recognize it can only work in a homegenous all-White state. Which is innately high-trust and altruistic. Engels, Marx, Che, etc, all recognized this. It wasn't made for the lower races.

So until that happens I am a far-right extremist. To do it now is just to waste time and shuffle deck chairs on the titanic.

>>10697522
>The basic idea of socialism is to replace market mechanisms with rational planning of production.

Wrong. That's planning, which is entirely compatible with (state) capitalism. The basis of socialism is the end of private property in favor of socialised means of production. Market, in the broadest sense of the term, are entirely compatible with socialism. It is a mean to allocate resources and nothing more.

>>10697524
I live in a former socialist country, and I can definitely tell you that we didn't embrace it with glee. We were given no choice and coped with it best we could. Stop buying into western propaganda, interact with people from these countries.

>>10697461
Marx himself believed that communism would prevail because Sparta defeated Athens.
Engels also said:
>a communism, ascetic, denouncing all the pleasures of life, Spartan, was the first form of the new teaching

>>10697549
so you're saying if you remove the incentives for societal division societal divisions will cease?

>>10697551
It probably needs to be homogeneous but there is no need for it to be white. There are white countries that due to culture have low interpersonal trust/altruism and non-white countries with high trust/altruism. Also material conditions and mass education/propaganda can shape culture towards higher trust/altruism (though generational inertia means that it may not occur in a timely manner).

>>10697582
There were many factors, including luck and strategic (not ideological) mistakes that played into Athens losing. Reducing it to such simple terms is retarded.

>>10697612
Yes, I agree. Marx was a retard.

>>10697168
>JBP: The Post
(for what it's worth, I agree with you)

>>10697297
>>10697301
They actually acknowledged Marxism in the sense that you must play out capitalism to its logical end, not just convert a peasant society into crude barracks communism in a single country and hope it werks

They're a mixed economy now with strong state influence which makes them more capable of international competition than other nations like the US where the state is cucked by corporations instead of the other way around.

They haven't given up on their ideology, they are not neoliberals. They have just shown the necessary flexibility to adapt to circumstances, something which the USA is now failing to do.

For the same reason your womyn studies prof probably doesnt know how to fix their dishwasher

>>10697589
Bingo.

>>10697642
I hate this kind of right-wing folksy bollocks so much.

>>10697105
because every attempt has been sabotaged by other world superpowers :^)

>>10697695
well, do you know how?

>>10697105
Real Communism has never been tried.

>>10697524
I'm sure media and corporate interests were very happy. Meanwhile the life expectancy of Russians dropped drastically compared to when they were under the USSR.

>>10697705
I plead the fifth.

>>10697194
Killing in self defense, or in defense of a citizen-controlled government, is morally good. Killing people whom have done nothing but criticise or disagree with your ideology isn't.

>>10697749
What is a citizen controlled government?

>>10697749
>citizen controlled
>government
lel

>Killing in self defense, or in defense of a citizen-controlled government, is morally good.
Why?

>>10697105
I like totally don't understand when people are like real communism has never been tried. I mean duh. It may not have been successfully done, but like I'm sure the first steps toward it has been totally attempted and not even once it didn't ended in total corruption. Keep trying is like so silly.

>>10697105
Because nobody like to give their shit away, commies less than everyone else.

>>10697789
You see, failed attempts at Communism have increasingly bad results, until Full Communism is achieved, which is heaven on earth, as proven by Marx. If you disagree you are a reactionary who deserves death.

>>10697642
This is unironically true to some degree. I know this commie gyt who is convinced that communism would solve all his problems yet his house is a filthy mess and the guy despise doing any kind of work even if it's washing his own dishes. A disgusting human being.

>>10697821
Bullshit. Communists are literally the proletarian and they work harder than everyone else.

>>10697871
Maybe 60-70 years ago

>>10697551
you could have saved everyone a lot of time and just said "niggers are the problem" like every other /pol/lack.

>>10697871
sure

>>10697105
it was a collective failure of the entire council

>>10697878
niggers ARE a problem, though. really, niggers are problematic for a whole lot of theories of human social organization. you can spend years building up complex theories of society in general, only to get BTFO by niggers.

>>10697263
>>10697276

Absolute poverty around the world has shrunk substantially the past two decades. In spite of a billion or two more people added in that duration.

>>10697280
The family is arguable the closest to a communist system. The state tries to replace the family, finds itself up against tribal instincts (similar DNA preference) honed over millennia, and fails.

It's literally a Jewish trick.

>>10697821
Karol?

>>10697204
>benefit nobody
We do pretty massive technological leaps though.

>>10697997
Uh, no. It's not communist at all. It's tribal, that's all it is.

>>10698363
Only tribes can implement something resembling communism, since there's a high level of trust between members and everyone knows each other. It's untenable for complex society.

>>10697301
>Lenin wasn't a communist because he implemented state capitalism

>>10697377
>fascists suck at organizing and are all backstabbers
Very few Germans defected to the Soviet Union when compared to the opposite. The German working class, too, showed loyalty even as they were being reamed, to the bitter end. Compare this to Stalin who executed metric tonnes of people on demand, and then executed the executioners.

>>10698368
I have no idea whether or not it's "only tribal", but claiming the family unit to be communist is... I don't know, let's just call it wrong.

>>10698388
Well, it functions on honor and reciprocal obligation. Your father may beat the shit out of you but he couldn't bear the shame of seeing you starve, unless he's truly awful.

>>10697369
Yeah, never happened. Upper class whites aren't "white labor". Dream on about your multiracial utopia.

>>10697168
>to rationalize away all the pain and suffering it has caused

Capitalism has probably caused just as much pain and suffering. Most "communist" states were also under constant siege from capitalist world powers.

>>10697369
the thing is tho...the black panthers only became a "a thing" of a consequence because the press blew them, just like the press is doing with nazi trolls now, they make it sound like it's some massive movement in every ghetto or in the contemporary case every post-industrial white wasteland, but it's just a tiny minority of cranks, but it sells papers and justifies law enforcement budgets and civil rights violations

>>10698412
capitalism has caused pain and suffering if youre a poor retarded nigger, too bad that socialism exists in capitalism now so work is not obligatory

>>10698398
Does in no way correlate with communism except the starving.

>>10697105
Why is it that the manifesto is the only writing by Marx discussed on /lit/?

>>10697254
>The free market is working because we're all wealthier than we were 20 years ago

This is debatable and it's likely that what you're considering as wealthier would have happened under different systems as well.

>>10698425
It's all we've got to go on. It's fine to speculate that it would be possible in other systems, but it just so happens that we are indeed getting more prosperous in capitalist societies. This doesn't need to be an issue unless you want to make it one.

>>10698425
fat chance faggot, capitalism is directly responsible for every daily luxury you take for granted. your computer, the internet, your toilet, your shower, and most importantly your avocado toast

>>10697301
China saw it's fastest growth under Mao. During Mao's rule, life expectancy grew at the fastest pace in human history. A lot of the backwards traditions like foot-binding and female infanticide were banned and a huge portion of the rural peasant population were collectivized and brought into cities which caused GDP and education to skyrocket. Also, a lot of the deaths attributed to Mao by American propaganda were due to famine which had been a continuous problem long before Mao took over.

Did Mao make mistakes? Yes. Was he overall incredibly good for the Chinese? Absolutely.

Capitalism is a necessity for communism to come about. Commies should try to accelerate it, not sabotage its progress.

Marx voted for free markets.

>>10698447
>During Mao's rule, life expectancy grew at the fastest pace in human history.
are we deliberately not including a certain event to get these numbers lol

>>10698447
>people are unironically saying Mao dindu nuffin
The Great Leap forward is a hoax

>>10697524
>Then why did the population of former socialist countries embrace capitalism with glee?

Most of them didn't.

>>10698454
Any day now, right?

>>10698460
You could argue that slavery was good for the slaves with his argument.

>>10698468
Slavery actually was good for the slaves, most people would benefit from being slaves

>>10698423
It's the one edgy 10th graders use to annoy their boomer grandparents - meanwhile I'm reading 18th Brumaire and no one cares.

>>10697332
You don't have to, just kill all those that disagree.

>>10698468
It's always a good thing for your population to decrease by 30-50million as a direct result of your actions, of course he was a great thing for China

>>10698437
>your computer, the internet, your toilet, your shower, and most importantly your avocado toast

Everything you listed except for maybe the avocado toast was the product of "socialized" government programs.

>>10698477
so America is communist?

>>10698460
Nobody is saying he didn't do anything wrong. He made lots of mistakes. However, during his time China progressed at an incredible rate that hasn't been matched since and a lot of the deaths attributed to him were going to happen with any leader.

>>10698457
>are we deliberately not including a certain event to get these numbers

Nope.

>>10698465
No it's a good while off.

It will get interesting when we get to the point where most working age adults will no longer be able to get jobs because of automation though.

Capitalism is self-defeating because it's self-optimisation progress leads to technology that makes workers superfluous, thereby also sabotaging its own market. It will need either reforms in the ways of wealth redistribution or you will get revolution.

>>10698481
The USA is a mixed economy.

>>10698496
>a lot of the deaths attributed to him were going to happen with any leader.
That's how I feel about the Holocaust. Most of those deaths would happen no matter what because they were being attacked by the Allies constantly

>>10698499
>technology is bad for the economy

>>10698473
Not how I would phrase it, but in a sense, sure. Some slaves did benefit from being slaves. Property is valuable, specially so tools.

>>10698505
>Mises

>>10697280
Shitmongler-tier opinion. Anarchy would lead us to a dark age, without cooperation and now globalization our world would be a shitty mudhut ugabugas idiots as it is in most part of africa nowadays. Only haired brainless hippies don't know that. Sooner or later some braindead steroid leader would beat the shit of your pacific anarcho comunity and rape/slave all the alives ones. Anarchy is a step down of evolution, communism a step up and capitalism where we are. Only by a peaceful transition communism could be implemented, like China is doing. Getting all the fucking money and converting into vital geopolitical assets, after they conquer the rules of the game, they should change it, by making a global coin and owning everyone and everything. One coin to rule them all.

>>10698505
Not having people with money to spend is bad for the economy so if you want to keep capitalism going with a shrinking workforce you need to start handing out pocket money for people to spend otherwise there is no one to buy your stuff.

>>10697639
>China is actually just accelerationist guys!

>>10698499
You don't know what the future holds and neither did the people in the 19th century philosophizing about the issues of the future. Yet here we all are, working despite the fears of our ancestors.

>>10697535
He's illuminated, he doesn't actually have to make sense.

>>10698527
there is actually another obvious solution for excess people that you would otherwise have to provide for

>>10698527

>>10698535
If you kill them all you will still lose the market to sell your shit.

>>10698532
> because it happened this way in the past it's sure to happen this way again!

If only those lazy coal workers would learn JavaScript and make an app!

>>10698537
when the robots make everything, the people who own the robots won't need a gay market anyway

>>10698536
Automation is a different kind of technology than we had until now.

Here's a brainlet accessible introduction for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

>>10698540
Probability is on my side. Sorry José.

>>10698545
heres a brainlet economic model for you

>>10698541
Now you're thinking like a communist!

>>10698550
>Probability is on my side

Probability and statistics aren't your strong suit.

>>10698560
? There's new jobs created every day that didn't exist the day before. The probability that we'll find work for people is fairly high despite your fears.

>>10698553
how dare you m8

>>10697105
In a lot of it, the fact that it was forced and not a natural revolution. In the case of others, it was intentional American sabotage.

>>10697105
life isnt bigbrained, and all our theory isnt that high and mighty anyway

>>10698527

>>10698581
What's a natural revolution if not a forced revolution? Lol

Things need to be more political not less. The mouth pieces just need to be critical of neoliberals as well.

> wahhh we can't drone strike innocent people freely
> wahhh we can't start wars for Israel and bankers

>>10697130
Because we are a worshipping race. It's in our nature to worship God, even if that God doesn't exist. Any thought that doesn't factor that in has no chance of understanding human nature

>>10698524
>Shitmongler-tier opinion
Already don't respect your opinion. In the future try not to be an edgy faggot and talk to who you are responding to like you would in person. Otherwise they aren't going to respect you enough to consider what you said. I guess that's fine if all you want to do is write down your pet idea so you can feel good about yourself, which is what I suspect is the motivation for most people with this kind teenager cyberbully banter.
If you actually want to communicate you are doing it wrong. It's okay im empathic, I know where I am and I know what a sad sack of shit anon is. For your sake please nicen up because you probably aren't a pleasant person to be around IRL.
I've read your post and there is a good chance this is bait. If it is find something better to do, such as genuine social interaction. If it is sincere that advice still holds.
>Anarchy without cooperation
It's all about cooperation.
>Shitty mud hut Africa
Africa is a huge place and in my observations the quality of life is better for the average inhabitant the further away the community is from concrete, that is when it's not affected by war or land grabs. The worst parts of Africa are the slums along points of trade and international commerce, these are the parts of Africa made by globalization.
Also you don't know anything about Africa.
>Anarchy is a step down of evolution, communism a step up and capitalism where we are
As a life scientist I recommend you learn what evolution is.
>Sooner or later some braindead steroid leader would beat the shit of your pacific anarcho comunity and rape/slave all the alives ones.
Sure kid
>China implementing communism
>China peaceful transition
(You)
>Converting it into vital geopolitical assets
No just money for Chinese corporations.
The only thing china is really converting is it's land, and the land of much of the world into a barren wasteland. China can't feed itself and is making it's severe ecological problems worse every day.

So yeah, don't you ever fucking reply to me again faggot.

>>10697125
>if there is a slave class then it fails at it's stated goal of liberating the proletariat
No it doesn't. Just dehumanize.

One of the things to people often fail to r,we bet in discussions like this is that communism doesn’t actually;y real actually real

>>10697789
I feel like you're mocking someone but I'm not sure who.

>>10698639
Anon what do you see?

>>10697818
Kek

Reactionary is unironically a good label though as it describes the politically unaware perfectly.

>>10697279
China stopped to even attempt to be communist a long time ago. Now they are unironically national socialist. And while it's powerful economically it's hardly some utopia.

>>10698552
>babby's first economic model they taught us to draw in high school econ will encapsulate any possible state of the world economy forever
Jesus fucking christ, anon

>>10698663
There's nothing nationalist about whoring and beating out your country's natural resources to the rest of the world.

>>10698657
I don't know, actual "The French Revolution was a mistake" reactionaries are probably more aware than Communists.

>>10698673
Nationalism is pretty much the unifying force of modern China, and they're just a few years away from being the world's most powerful country. US will collapse within 10 years.

>>10698663
>they are unironically national socialist

No.

>>10698677
They've gone beyond the definition reactionaries.

>>10698687
Reaction should be properly understood as right-wing and anti-liberal at least, Most currently-existing reactionaries are just right-liberals, or rather, left-liberals of a generation ago. It's a given that liberals keep moving left.

>>10698680
Projected, sure. That can change if people get woke on the China question though. I'll also just add that trading with China was a mistake.

>>10698377
well...

>>10698691
I think we're pretty much guaranteed to collapse under our own demographic weight soon. China just has to not make any unforced errors and they will rule the world for the forseeable future.

>>10698689
>It's a given that liberals keep moving left.
"No"

>>10698697
I would think it a given too that liberals will keep moving left. Prove him otherwise please.

>>10698697
Yes. Okay, in the US we've had the occasional roadbumps, like the Nixon presidency, but on the whole, we've moved left since the country came into existence, and will keep doing so.

>>10697639
>going from communist to capitalist ideals because it actually works better is all part of the chinks master-plan to become communist again
Fucking post-commies are more embarrassing every year that goes by.

>>10698696
What do you mean by demographic weight? And no, should the US stop policing the world, a power vacuum will be created that needs to be filled, and to the victor go to the spoils.

>>10698716
>The USSR is just pretending to become a non-Communist country, they're secretly preparing to re-implement Communism when the time is right!
t. Anatoly Golitsyn

>The PRC is just pretending to become a non-Communist country. They're going to re-implement Communism when the time is right!
t. modal tankie

>>10698719
>demographic weight
Too many resentful minorities who are net money sinks.

>>10698663
Oh, yeah, the well known nazi China, with its endless military parades and speech about racial superiority and a thousand years reich. Fucking brainlet. China is a mixed system between state-capitalism and neo-liberalism.

>>10698733
You should read what the Chinese write about other ethnic groups sometime. The PRC is undoubtedly Han supremacist.

>>10698733
you have a cartoon understanding of what the Nazis were

>>10698705
Overall since the founding of the country, absolutely, but this century the American left has economically shifted entirely to neoliberal centrism that would be considered on the right in almost any other western nation. They're almost entirely an engine of inauthentic, pandering social "progress" instead of favoring economic restructuring (Hillary being the worst offender here in my eyes), and I would say it's an intentional attempt to prevent any systemic change by forcing all dialogue to be about who's allowed in which fucking bathrooms.
The sad part is how well it works.

>>10698741
Can we not bring up "Nazis"? They're boring as a subject in any conversation.

>>10698744
So Progressivism isn't leftist?

>>10698663
>China is national socialist

>>10698746
Why are you quoting me instead of the person who brought up the Nazis

Theyre also very relevant in a conversation about state capitalism

>>10698746
Who the fuck are you? A discussion nazi?

>>10698755
I just wish we didn't respond to people's who bring up Nazis. They've been done to death, no pun intended.

>>10698749
They're only progressives in the most superficial ways and hardly even in those. Most of the issues that they appear progressive on are just distractions from them pushing centrist neoliberal economic policy and warmongering with false pretenses.

>>10698663
Are you retarded? National socialists were only socialist in name? In which fucking way is China national socialist?

>>10698749
Progressivism is an incredibly broad term so not necessarily. The 4chan idea of progressivism as "blue-haired tumblr whales want to turn your son into a girl and make your daughter fuck black people" is in my eyes a hijacking of genuine 20th century leftism that serves as an excellent distraction from the real deal. It's worked spectacularly - political debate in America is now about whether somebody said something racist or not, and nothing real ever has to change.

>>10698771
progressivism is just various degrees of 'i am a heretic that opposes the Spanish Inquisition'

>>10698625
>the complete empathic edgelord that thinks human race will hold arms and sing kumbaya is annoyed

I still read what your sweaty fingers of rage wrote and laughed.

>>10698777
Why does the Spanish Inquisition have such a bad rep? It did lots of good, both politically and spiritually.

>>10698765
Why is it superficial? Most actually-existing Communists I know take minority-identity issues very seriously.

>>10698771
>Progressivism is an incredibly broad term so not necessarily. The 4chan idea of progressivism as "blue-haired tumblr whales want to turn your son into a girl and make your daughter fuck black people" is in my eyes a hijacking of genuine 20th century leftism that serves as an excellent distraction from the real deal
All that happened was that the New Left changed tactics from class struggle to identitarian struggle. High-low vs. middle is really the key to leftism, the elites just found a lower-class of resentful women and minorities to be more effective.

>>10698781
that's my point, progressives are dicks who want to fuck up the law and order and culture of society

>>10698781
This, often overlooked is that a big part of the Spanish Inquisition was rooting out crypto-Jews who were causing problems.

>>10698785
Isn't that the trait of the progressive though? Openness, not wanting to feel boxed in and controlled.

>>10698793
then they would go and make their own society instead of fucking up a perfectly good one. whats actually going on is that they resent anything that resembles nobility or virtue

>>10698793
>Isn't that the trait of the progressive though? Openness, not wanting to feel boxed in and controlled.
Seriously? Did you miss the part where Progressives are sending the police to people's homes to arrest them for mean tweets over in England?

>>10697469
>give utter retarded lazy idiots jobs
>they fuck it up
>corruption grows
>the state stagnates and decays
Wow. What a system.

>>10698797
They can't, they're progressives, not the maintainers of society.

>>10698784
I think the shift was more major than that. A thin veneer of social justice to mask a complete abandonment of genuine leftism and economic reforms. If the Democratic Party can paint themselves as the ones making sweeping changes and fixing the world, they won't have to actually do anything but throw out a few crumbs like gay marriage and dude weed lmao. Nothing but PR posturing.

>>10698820
Why do you think identitarian leftism is less genuine than orthodox Marxism?

>>10698799
What do you think progressive means?

>>10697469
>it's all up to chance.
It's not chance at all. You just don't happen to be born in a good or a bad family. You're the product of your ancestor's choices. Socialism never works because it only benefits the bottom of the barrel. Why would I give away what my ancestors earned with effort trough generations?

>>10698828
Orthodox Marxism involves the lower classes themselves rising and taking the means of production, reshaping the society they live in. Whether you claim it would be perfect or would be completely impossible, that's what it is.
Modern American leftism is the same capitalist system as always run largely by an upper class who picks mascots for the proles to root for. Half of these representatives claim they're on the proles' side and that they will lift them out of poverty and make all people live in a fantasy land of equality without doing anything to actually make that happen. Even their social justice convictions change weekly to match whatever opinions are fashionable. If you think a sociopathic slimeball like Hillary Clinton genuinely loves minorities and wants them to live in harmony with her, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

>slave labor
>child labor
>sweatshop labor
>undocumented labor
but people TRULY suffer under communism huh

>>10698849
>Orthodox Marxism involves the lower classes themselves rising and taking the means of production, reshaping the society they live in.
Yes, and every time, we end up everything being owned by a centralized State instead, since no one has actually demonstrated how public property can exist without a State to guarantee it.

Meanwhile, modern American leftism involves the ethnic minorities themselves rising and taking control of the political system and overthrowing white supremacy, reshaping the society they live in.

>If you think a sociopathic slimeball like Hillary Clinton genuinely loves minorities and wants them to live in harmony with her, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
No, they just want to be equivalent of the nomenklatura or PRC red nobility Agitating ethnic minorities is just a tactic to achieve that end.

>>10698865
>giving work to people in need is bad

>>10698873
are you honestly branding slavery and child labor as "giving work to people in need?"

>>10698865
>child labor 150 years ago is comparable to mass genocide and ethnic cleansing

>>10698873
i assume you're referring to sweatshop and undocumented labor and not slavery and child labor with this post, to which i respond: there is a difference between giving work to people in need and giving work with just compensation to people in need. You wouldn't consider it profoundly generous of me to provide a homeless man a nickel to sit in a hot room and make cheap shirts for me all day, I assume?

>>10698887
Not necessarily slavery but child labor absolutely. You get that every developed country at some point treated its worked like shit, right? Industrializing poor countries is good for them in the long run. What do you think would happen to them if for example America became socialist?

>>10698887
slavery helps everybody- makes 100% employment and stops people from hurting themselves through their bad decisions.

>>10698899
Shit argument. If America became socialist the entire world would become an utopia. Alas it will never happen.

>>10698908
>If America became socialist the entire world would become an utopia
do you seriously believe this?

>>10698893
>capitalist countries don't commit genocide or mass murder
I have a few hundred thousand dead Iraqis and Rohingya and Vietnamese and Australian aborigines and Armenians and Indonesians that would beg to differ

>>10698911
Do you have a single reason as to why it wouldn't?

>>10698917
because socialism has literally never existed, because it's a fairy tale tier belief

>>10698899
well the U.S. might have a shot at being a successful socialist country because it's the only nation on Earth that can't be invaded by the U.S.

>>10698921
the USSR had nukes m8

>>10698899
It's good for them in the short run too. There's a reason why they prefer to work in the industries over the fields.

>>10698917
Attempts at Real Communism have a poor track record.

>>10697119
>communism
>slave class
>class

>>10698924
it also had neoliberals :(

>>10698928
well it does say in the bible 'the neo-liberals will always be with you'. maybe you should pay attention to Jesus more

>>10698893
putting aside the fact that capitalist countries kill 8500 gorrillions too,

>child labor
>150 years ago
we just outsource it now, dum dum.

>>10698914
>the Iraqi civil war was the fault of the USA and not of AQI launching a campaign to eliminate the grey and stoke sectarian tensions which lead to Shiite death squads
>Myanmar isn't even capitalist, less than 10% of it's population even has a bank account
>Vietnam was a civil war where the vast majority of deaths were a result of fighting between the two governments
>Australian Aborigines died from disease
>Armenians were killed by Ottomans; which again wasn't a capitalist nation, it was an Islamic Theocracy.
>Indonesians in terms of colonialism wasn't even that bad

If you're gonna use that line of argument, at least you Leopold II you twat.

>>10697117
>Not only has it never been tried, it has never even been understood
So then how do you know it's never been tried?

>>10698946
>Iraq
Caused by Israel.
>Myanmar
The Rohingya deserved it
>Vietnam
US-USSR proxy war.
>Abos
Shit happens.
>Armenians
T*rks being T*rks.

>>10698951
We don't.

>>10697695
Why, because it hits you where it hurts?

>>10698778
>thinks human race will hold arms and sing kumbaya
I don't think that at all. I think violence is a part of humanity. I also think that violence has a far greater potential when it is monopolized by private and state power. I would rather face an a shrimpy faggot like you or a mob than a militarized police force or paramilitary death squads any day, the later only exist to a large extent because of private and state power.
>Look arms
Gross. I wouldn't touch someone unpleasant like you and I bet most people are in the same boat. This is probably why you are so pessimistic.
The vast majority of all human life is done in absence of hiearchial domination, feeding your kids, buying groceries, going to a party. There is no reason government and economy shouldnt be the same way. Complex systems with living agents are self organizing and don't need arbitrary commands to function, actually that kind of thing inhibits the autopoetic nature of such systems and makes them mechanistic and vulnerable.

>>10698959
then who gives a shit

>>10697871
Go tell that to the trust fund baby communists in Brooklyn who just do coke all day.

Since when did /lit/ become /pol/?

>>10698965
>The vast majority of all human life is done in absence of hiearchial domination, feeding your kids, buying groceries, going to a party.
PURE

>>10698965
>The vast majority of all human life is done in absence of hiearchial domination
>citing caring for your children as an example of "the absence of hierarchical domination"
>unironically believing on self-organization and spontaneous order

>>10698946
I didn't want to give you a hard time with Leopold II, but it seems like you stumbled over all of these examples anyway.
>>the Iraqi civil war was the fault of the USA and not of AQI launching a campaign to eliminate the grey and stoke sectarian tensions which lead to Shiite death squads
literally yes. you cannot absolve the most powerful nation on Earth of its complicity and mass murder in the multi-trillion dollar price tag military engagement with a third world Middle Eastern country for eight years.
>Vietnam was a civil war where the vast majority of deaths were a result of fighting between the two governments
...there wouldn't have been two governments if the U.S. didn't stick their fucking nose into it and send 50,000+ American troops to defend a government the people overwhelmingly did not want
>Australian Aborigines died from disease
lol
>Indonesians in terms of colonialism wasn't even that bad
lol

I'll grant Armenia and Myanmar, but you've quite misrepresented the rest.

>>10698793
Then why do they try to control others' speech?

>>10698873
More like:
>gives work to poor people in third countries
>they may get lots money they wouldn't be getting otherwise
>you're still a piece of shit for not paying them as much as a first world worker
Kill yourself.

>>10698968
We just have to have faith that while we don't know whether or not is HAS been tried, that if it WAS that it worked. If it hasn't, it definitely will work. 100%

>>10698784
>Most actually-existing Communists I know take minority-identity issues very seriously.

Only from a condescending position up top. These are people who dream of being apparatchiks, not of working in factories. As Dinesh D'Souza put it, they won't forgo their own 'white privilege' they'll try to arrange for someone else to do without theirs.

>>10698865
American leftists love undocumented labor.

>>10698988
hey nigger here's a crazy idea what if both capitalist and communist nations have invaded, exploited and committed massacres, because humans are selfish murderous pieces of shit, although it helps if you have a metanarrative that promises paradise at the end if you shoot the right people

>>10698926
Largely because the imperial world powers immediately apply every economic pressure possible and use the CIA to start coups and assassinate leaders. If that doesn't work they just straight up invade.

>>10698997
I'm not here to represent the milquetoast, corporate-sycophant warhawk virtue signallers that are the American Left

>>10699006
>blames everybody but themselves
why are communists so narcissistic?

>>10699011
Name a communist country that wasn't interfered with and intentionally destabilized

>>10698996
>Only from a condescending position up top. These are people who dream of being apparatchiks, not of working in factories.
But the Communist movement is run by people who dream of being apparatchiks, convincing the workers that a glorious future of worker-owned factories is nigh. Similarly, American leftists dream of being government employees, convincing the ethnic minorities that a glorious future of revenge against white supremacy is nigh.

>>10699006
Yes, great powers in conflict tend to use these strateiges. You're just ideologically partial to the USSR, which is fine.

>>10698899
It's not that I don't care. I really do, but if those countries go to shit without us paying for their cheap labor then so be it. Regardless of the consequences what we are doing must stop. It isn't morally right. We're abusing of them almost as if they were slaves.

>>10698997
See:
>>10698849

>>10699008
Ok well good. Because it's bullshit how anyone could think open borders are good for a nation's workers. And yet every DSA faggot thinks you're just a racist if you don't want 50 million illegals artificially lowering wages for American labor.

>>10699003
I don't buy this human nature bullshit and nobody should. Human nature is an alterable fucking thing that depends entirely on environment; people are not innately selfish or hateful. Why the fuck else would we have such a profound and wide range of moral character in the world if everyone was actually selfish on the inside?

>>10699015
>name one country east of the Oder that the USSR didn't occupy/intervene in militarily
shouldn't the revolutionary fervor of the proletariat be able to withstand that? you have history on your side after all! the radiant future is coming tovarisch!

>>10699006
This.

>>10699024
>And yet every DSA faggot thinks you're just a racist if you don't want 50 million illegals artificially lowering wages for American labor.

America is Totally Depraved (racist), so American workers deserve everything they get for standing in the way of Progress, in the eyes of the modal DSA member.

>>10698973
The whole world is becoming more and more like /pol/, anon. We're going to have a wild next couple of decades.

>>10699016
>Yes, great powers in conflict tend to use these strateiges.

The vast majority of countries that American imperialism has done this to are very far from great powers.

>>10699041
Correct, they were mostly USSR proxies.

>>10699029
People who believe in human nature doesn't believe that everyone is inherently one way but that there are some aspects that are more prevalent. What they're saying is not that everyone will always be selfish but that there will always be enough selfish people for communism not to work. And while you may deny that the human is inherently selfish, it seems very hard to deny that the human is inherently feudal and will put their immediate family first.

>>10699038
who would you anons bet on winning, radical left or reactionary right? I think we might have a 1919 situation with freikorps equivalents shooting communists. Also do you think the tenuous radical left coalition will hold or will revolution be heavily racialized and basically descend into ethnic cleansing.

>>10699030
Not even close to being a counter-argument.

>>10699006
>Hey guise, we dont need your capitalism and international trade
>5 years later
>hey guise, it isnt funny anymore, please give us back capitalism and international trade.

>If that doesn't work they just straight up invade.
Like USSR did in Afghanistan?

>>10699060
>communism didn't work because imperialism
isn't an argument either faggot. How about stop latching on to metanarratives from the 19th century if you actually care about helping "the working class" and develop a practical ideology for our epoch.

>>10698978
>Caring for your children
There is such a thing as justified authority. Like pulling weeds or telling your children what to do. Not saying that children have all the liberty they should, I was saying that there isn't some sort of bureacracy set up to tell you to feed your kids. At least there shouldn't be, that is starting to happen in some places in the "developed" world where people don't act like people any more, even then it's incredibly rare when something like that is useful.
>Not believing on self-organization and spontaneous order
Brainlet
>Unironically
Double brainlet

>>10699056
There will be no revolution and the United States will continue to get worse for the majority of the populace. The idea that either side is going to start a revolution is laughable.

>>10699070
what about Europe though, it has enough racial and social tension for some serious happenings I think

>>10699056
The US will either get slowly shittier or have racial Communism. The US tends to move left over time, so I'm betting on racial Communism.

>>10699078
The racial and social tensions in Europe are being massively overstated by right wing Americans. The chance of a violent revolution happening in western Europe is much smaller than it happening in America.

>>10699065
Bro I'm not saying imperialism is the ONLY reason things have gone to shit in the past. I was only arguing against the idea that it played no part at all.

>How about stop latching on to metanarratives from the 19th century if you actually care about helping "the working class" and develop a practical ideology for our epoch.
Nice. Pic related.

>>10699088
>The US caring about race in a classless society
You are ignorant

>>10699088
Would you really consider the U.S. to be more left now than during the New Deal or even during the 1950s with super high tax rates for millionaires? If anything it seems like the U.S. has gone more to the right (apart from social issues like race and gays).

>>10699094
Obviously, it won't be real Communism, since it never gets tried.

>>10699094
>anyone not caring about race ever

>>10699096
Yes, you're just considering state-ownership or tax rates as a measure of how left-wing a state is, which is silly. The average American in the 1930s would probably be called a Nazi bigot reactionary today.

>>10699101
Look what happened to all the different Europeans that hated each other in America. After the Irish and Italians worked there way out of exterme poverty and into the working class they became white and ceased to be wops and whatever they called the Irish. It's happening to black people right now.
The only reason racial tensions continue is because the mongrel working class is desperate to be better than someone.
This wouldn't be a problem in a classless society.

>>10697168
>and I'll do it right."
They had to do something, especially in those turbulent times

>>10699104
Based on social issues, sure. But based on everything else, no way. They were way more pro-labor, you know, probably the most important part of Marxism.

>>10699119
It's absolutely not happening to black people. The Irish and Italians and Poles and Germans and everyone else assimilated because they could easily blend in and blend together. Sure there are people with pronounced features, but (to steal a term I hate) they are all white passing. In a classless society there will still be hierarchies, and I don't think you can reasonably expect people to just act like they don't look different from each other and have very different cultures from each other.

>>10699137
America is still overwhelming pro labour it's just been beaten into submission by a century of batons and propaganda. Take away corporate media and political parties and the workers will realize this, those things are disintegrating and that realization is happening.
The only real barrier is community structure has been leveled by consumer culture and that keeps people from organizing themselves.

>>10699153
>there will still be hierarchies
#notmyrevolution

>>10697295
>>10697276
>wealth should be measured relatively to those with the most wealth
>if we can't all be rich we should all be poor!

>>10699157
>is still overwhelming pro labour
No it is not. Call me when union militancy and IWW is back in full force

>>10699157
>that realization is happening
Meh... I don't see it. Watch the documentary "Harlan County, USA." That was made in 1973. Compare the organizers and workers of that film to the American Left today. It's never going to be like that ever again in this country. Today's DSA style leftists would call everyone in that film a dumb redneck racist hick.

And that's one reason why Harlan County, KY voted like 85% for Trump in 2016. In 40 years it went from organized labor to as far right as you can get in America.

>>10699091
>intersectionality

>>10699165
We would manage to classify ourselfs in one way or the other.

Subhuman Manlets and Divine Lanklets.
Alphas, Betas and Omegas.
Normies and NEETs
And that is just classifications (almost) unique to 4chan.

these threads all suck

>>10699189
hey it's fun.
here, have some fun.

>>10699177
>call everyone in that film a dumb redneck racist hick.
The animosity is mutual anyway so idk why the blame is put sqaurely on those DSA people.

>>10699177
>a dumb redneck racist hick

They wouldn't be wrong.

>>10699180
yeah, and?

>>10699090
what makes you say that, do you live there? which country

>>10699207
stop pretending you care about the working class. stop calling yourself a communist.

>>10699171
That's what I am saying, the attitude is pro labour. The problem is no one realises this because public discourse is controlled by corporations and their lapdogs, that domination is losing it's grip. The only problem is people don't have the means to organize and propagate ideas like they did in the early 20th century.
I agree this is as bad as it has ever been, a see a phase shift coming is all. The critical threshold is neigh.

>>10699202
>>10699200
Exactly my point.

The coal miners are workers. Being exploited by capitalism. Many dying on the job. Many getting black lung. But they're white and rural and didn't have the opportunity to receive a quality education so fuck them, right?

>>10699219
>so fuck them, right?

Yes. I'm a neocon and have nothing to do with the DSA though.

By definition communism has not been tried. Inb4 "NOT REAL COMMUNISM" memery.

Most of the people talking about communism or even socialism have no clue about it one way or another.

>>10699229
oh but you do I bet! and someone very smart people like you will be able to get this system going without hitches, and nobody is gonna come in and fuck it all up again. because this time you will be doing it right! very smart I like it anon

>>10699229
>By definition communism has not been tried.
As in they attempted to achieve communism and failed and therefor communism hasnt been tried?
or as in what they were trying to achieve wasnt communism at all?

That is a pretty important distinction to make.

>>10699219
That wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. I am saying that these 'coal miners' shit on those white collar workers DSA types too. Shaming one group for having the 'fuck them' attitude is narrow-minded and puts these blue collar workers on a pedestal.

>>10699218
That pro labour attitude died with the IWW and union millitancy. How are you argeeing with me?

>>10697309
what the FUCK are you saying?

>>10697254

My family had a computer in 1998. It was somewhat expensive but it was worth it to be connected to everything. We had one a few years before that too if I remember correctly.

>>10699245
Are you kidding me? The white collar workers are essentially the bourgeoisie. The entire concept of a revolution is based on the "fuck them" attitude. The entire concept of Marxism puts blue collar workers on a pedestal.

>>10699287
Most actual "socialists" are white collar workers in the US.

>>10699287
>white collar workers are essentially the bourgeoisie
Ohhhhhhhh now I get it, it is another someone who doesn't know shit about marxism speaking on behalf of marxists episode.

Office drones, fast food workers, middle managers are as much a prole as blue collar workers dumbass. Prole does not just mean blue collar workers.

>>10699301
Exactly, and that's why the American Left is completely castrated and lame. That's why someone like Trump has convinced so many workers who in any other time and any other nation would be socialists to be GOP voters.

>>10699311
A college educated yuppie office drone is not the same as someone who works with their body and you know that. The toll of your labor on yourself, and what you receive in return for it, is not comparable. You are not being exploited nearly as much making 80k sitting behind a desk as someone who is ruining their back to make barely better than minimum wage.

>>10699317
>the left doesn't automatically attract cucked apparatchik types

>>10699317
>That's why someone like Trump has convinced so many workers who in any other time and any other nation would be socialists to be GOP voters.

The right is really popular amongst the working class in Europe to.

In my country, people who subscribe to conservative parties are usually depicted as low wealth, no higher education and white. And it is most likely true 75% of the time.

>>10699332
The biggest factor that turns good people away from the left is interacting with leftists.

>>10699330
>and you know that.
All I know is that proletariat and bourgeois are labels given to people based on their relationship to the means of production, not the type of labour they do you retards. You are probably right in the amount of exploitation differs, but the nature of exploitation still exist among all workers.

>>10699317
> American Left is completely castrated and lame
Pfft. If anything the decline of trade unionism is because its bedrock of blue collar jobs were outsourced or automated, with the white collar ones becoming the new bedrock

>>10699347
But a lot of them still probably believe in things like universal healthcare, don't they?

>>10699358
right wing =\= neoliberalism

pic related is the nigga you can thank for the German welfare state

>>10699242

Communism is stateless and classless. If there is a state or a class then it is not communism.

>>10699376
Thanks Bismark for doing the self-serving policies to keep out the SDP :^)

>>10699386
Kinda funny how the so-called communists always end up creating authoritarian states.

>>10699408

Okay.

>>10699355
weaklings like you will be the first to be eaten by your "revolution"

>>10699245
>That pro labour attitude died with the IWW and union millitancy
No it didn't, the working class is self interested. The problem is they literally don't know about the labor movement it's not even on their radar. They all know it is bullshit and want it to change. The problem is the labor movement is non existent, they don't have the ground to stand on.
I agree that the labor movement is dead. The workers are alive and they know their situation is bullshit.

>>10699386
Then it is an unoptainable utopia.

Human characteristics and desires will prevail. That's why porn became the number 1 thing on the internet despite internet back in the day despite having no hierarchy.

>>10699418
It's kinda like if Nazis created a libertarian utopia.

>>10699429

>human nature

This meme needs to end.

>>10699429
>Patriarchy
>Not a hierarchy
Inb4 "muh" memes

>>10699421
Not an argument.

>>10699426
>they literally don't know about the labor movement it's not even on their radar.
They can read their history lol. But for realz, they should also reach out to white collar workers to form a proper pro-labour block

>>10699442
Yeah every other animal has behavioral patterns but humans definitely don't.

>>10699442
The world you dream of is one of robots.

>>10699443
>muh patriarchy

>>10699449
>Not an argument.
Not making an argument more of an ironic point about the folly of your aim. Nobody posting on this board is going to be the beneficiary of a "revolution." You are the bourgeoisie anon.

>>10699443
>patriarchy is just an artificial construct maan, it has NO connection to human biology. Consciousness will totally conquer spontaneity comrade.

>>10699467
That may be so, but you still have not made an reasonable argument that I actually am all those things you said, instead sperging out hard as you got BTFO. I could be a reformist for all you know :^).

>>10699481
I'm not the guy you were arguing with

>>10699484
Then i actually preferred the other guy over you since he doesn't post shitty non-arguments.

>>10699479
Confirmed for not understanding patriarchy

>>10697522
>what are social democracies

Because good ideas in theory can be poor in practice.
In theory leaving all the candy in a bowl on the doorstep for Halloween will allow people to take one and leave without ringing the doorbell.
In practice the candy bowl will see two people tops, ending up empty or gone entirely by midnight.
People can be good, but they will be bad. Any theory built on goodwill is destined to fail to ruthlessness

>>10697105
I unironically think it needs a strong monarchy and religious tradition.

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