/lit/ - Literature

>>10661747
>yet another memerson thread

Don't you get tired of posting the same thread everyday?

>>10661747
Hes a scam artist like faith goldy or Lauren southern. Just playing a part to rake in betabux. So funny how easily fooled pol is.

>>10661770
Eh. I got some problems with Peterson but I really doubt he's a scam artist.

Twelve rules, twelve broken. From cover to cover, this book has little to offer. Another man, telling how to live, another shill, with nothing to give. He leads by word and not by deed, he is not like water and does not truly lead. His words put into your mouth, another book sold, and on the way, plenty of stories told. Sure it is great, to stand against oppression, but to exchange it for another is another degression. Fighting against the dominance hierarchy, to become one himself, his book does not deserve, to be on my shelf.

>>10661801
Peterson BTFO for the rest of eternity

>>10661777
https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/952345392619847680?lang=en

You were saying?

>>10661747
Peterson btfo. Notice how Peterson posters always refuse to acknowledge Brand

>>10661849
What is it with these so-called /ourguys/ taking advantage of their fanbase? I once watched an Alex Jones podcast and it was full of ads about mugs, and some coffee beans.

>>10661897
don't forget juices full of brain-activating chemicals that release your manliness from the government-induced cage it's being put in, which apparently contain soy

>>10661849
woah he actually sells stuff?
what a fucking scam artist!

>>10661747
I don't about his book but Peterson has given me some great book recommendations. Gulag Archipelago was great, I couldn't find Carl Jung's archetype book so I read Memories, Dreams and Reflections instead and I actually quite liked the New Testament. Gospel of Mathew was clearly the best one though, John was full of shit.

>>10661747
>jung
>cultural christian
He's just a LARPer.

>>10661747
Aren't we on, at least, Peterson thread 3 now? I don't get it. If /lit/ hates him so much then why all the threads about him daily? Makes no fucking sense.

>>10662336
Hey buddy if you really wanted to get rid of a Peterson thread you would make a more interesting thread instead of replying to this one.

>>10661801
10/10 would steal again

>>10662336
There are two sides to Peterson's online presence:
>based professor DESTROY feminist leftist nutjob / "You can't force me to respect you"
>sort yourself out, be a good person, here is all the advice your father should have given you

This unusual juxtaposition makes it difficult to figure out how to categorize Peterson. This is why I think there's so much discussion about him on /lit/.
I would call him an intelligent person with genuinely good intentions who suffers from occasional pseud tendencies and who has a bit of a savior complex.

>>10662486
>I would call him an intelligent person with genuinely good intentions who suffers from occasional pseud tendencies and who has a bit of a savior complex.
this

>>10661924
Selling stuff is one thing (I must admit the carpet looks nice) but commodifying his brand (limited edition signature) is another

>>10662486
>This is why I think there's so much discussion about him on /lit/.
Or maybe Peterson shills are out in full force, posting any recent thing he is up to.

i've converted to petersonism, used to hate him cuz how much his ppl would spam, but after listening to his book, i love seeing all the little fedora tipping trannies who refuse to give up their cartoons and get a job being trigged to death

>>10662508
Yeah that's part of it too. A good chunk of his fanbase are just riding the hype train and waiting for the next meme moment to happen like the Newman interview.
His subreddit is a perfect example of this, a complete train wreck of circlejerking worshippers.

>>10662486
There is a third side:
>there is a deeper physiological meaning to media and art consisting of wisdom on how to overcome certain obstacles in life, this is not relative and deeply embedded in the human psyche as jung and campbell showed. The post-modern problem of an indefinite set of interpretations can be fixed by narrowing it down to those which help you survive in the world. Oh and by the way free will exists.

It's a shame that most of Peterson's fans or detractors have never read or watched Maps of Meaning and instead he appears to them as either the cool internet dad or the savage SJW destroyer. Kinda like Dawkins is no longer known for The Selfish Gene, but rather fedora tier atheism.

>>10662504
How's commodifying your brand (aka selling stuff with your name/logo on it) a scam?

Do you know actually knows what is a scam?

>>10661747
st

>>10661801
nice

>>10661777
of course not

>>10662486
>I would call him an intelligent person

>>10661777

He wrote a self-help book.

>>10662766
>t. cynical pathetic loser
Oh no, telling people what they can do to better their lives. How dare he?

>>10662774
I've got some advice on how you can improve your life faggot. Kill yourself. Now pay me for my unparalleled wisdom.

>>10662796
Why are you such a bitter cunt? Who hurt you, anon? You can talk to me.

>>10661777
The Great Carpet Fiasco was scandalous, but other than that he's pretty much the opposite of a scam artist. He literally puts all his lectures up online for free. That's insane. It's not surprising that people are willing to donate to his patreon given all the free shit he is giving away.

>>10662811
>He literally puts all his lectures up online for free

they're not his to marketise. he can't charge people for watching videos of UoT lectures

>>10662766
>Ovid was a scam artist
>Cicero was a scam artist

>>10662809
I'm not >>10662766. I just wanted to tell someone to kill themselves because I really want to kill myself. I'm the one who hurt me and I do it again and again without learning from my mistakes.

>>10662821
His bible series is not hosted or paid for by UoT.

>>10662486
You get autists who hype him up to unreasonable levels so that people (like in this thread) also sperg out and constantly smear him. It's tiresome and happened so often with so many people.

>>10661747
https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/961689858224934915

>self-help books

Vomit.

>>10662941
Cynical cunt.

>>10661849
Would you like to buy a magic carpet?

>>10661801
Pretty good bro even though I do like Peterson

It's an OK book desu. Haven't read any self help books apart from being memed into reading How to Win Friends.

>>10662691
What's his free will argument? I can't remember but it sure made that autist Harris as buttflustered as his affectless as is capable of.

>>10661849
Embarassing

>>10663154
>free will
you mean that thing that nobody can define, and that is totally unecessary for explaining human behavior but that people persist in clinging to for reasons that asbolutely have nothing to do with our culture being based on a religion that holds that free will is very important

>>10663162
No, the thing that allows us to imprison people because if they didn't have free will and all things are determined by prior events, they aren't responsible for their actions and thus it would be a moral wrong to punish them for something beyond their control.

>>10663162
if you knew more about neuroscience HAHAHAHA you’d know this is wrong

>>10663180
no im pretty sure you meant the thing i said. because the thing you said sounds like a legal concept whose value rests in utilitarian morality

>>10663180
retard
you don't have free will in punishing them either so it isn't wrong

>>10663182
At least you read Free Will. I'm still working on it.

>>10663182
wew what an argument

>>10663187
You want me to frame it in absolute morality? Are you getting Calvinist on me?

>>10663206
im saying it has nothing to do with free will
you can have humans inventing legal concepts without them having free will

>>10663224
Determinism is the taking the ball and going home with it of arguments.

>>10661747
The book that saved Western Civilization

>>10663232
it's the logical argument. we are automatons, cretaed by dna, blah blah, you know the story

there is no need to add in anything else

>>10663245
But then we're all incapable of any sort of rationality or logic and everything is a post-hoc rationalization driven entirely by prior experience. Your argument is self defeating.

he's studied a lot of shit and spent his life working it into helping people as a psychologist and working it into lectures. all the time spent cultivating and studying has given him a decent command of language on said subject he discusses. he shares the information. what's the big deal? everyone is working off of someone or multiple someones from the past, that's how it goes. what's the big fucking problem?
he's making money off of it? SO??!! any pleb complaining about that would do it in a second if they had the chance. welcome to living in a society where you have to make money to survive, and the more you make the more comfortable and easy it is to travel and eat and live and everything else, dumb cunts. he talks out against cults and is passionate about what he's learned and believes. i don't want to suck his dick, but i've learned from him and glad he's doing what he's doing.

christ.

>>10663270
why would logic require free will? logic is just applying rules to sets of data gleaned from experience

>>10663279
And I can make a perfectly logical argument as to why it's okay to eat babies.

>>10663180
Incarceration should be a form of rehabilitation, not punishment. This is perfectly compatible with determinism.

>>10663180
>deriving an non-ought from an is
My illiterate detector just exploded

>>10663292
..yeah you could. Some animals do eat their babies, it's actually pretty common. Youre unlikely to convince humans it's a good idea though

>>10663154
I don't remember his exact scientific objections, but I think it boils down to that the science isn't in yet and that we don't even know what consciousness is, but I could be remembering it wrong and simply projecting my own views on Peterson here. His philosophical objection however was that despite being told and maybe even believing that people don't have free will, they still act like as if they did, people act as if their actions and decisions actually mattered and society is structured like that. Peterson uses this fact to make an existentialist claim: We all act and behave as if free will exists, which means that we believe in it despite saying the contrary.

>>10663298
>should
Did... did you just

>>10663271
Leftists hate anyone who makes a lot of money because the believe no matter what that financial success is undeserved.

>>10663318
we also act as though we're moral people, when our morals are completely arbitrary and inconsistent

>>10663271
I don't dispute his work as a psychologist, he probably helps a lot of people and that's nice. But his hysterical statements about Marxism and academics undermining western culture are simply impossible to take seriously. I can't respect anyone who goes on about something he is clearly ignorant about. Whatever else he may do, he is tacitly perpetuating the vicious fallacy of cultural Marxism within the far-right.

>>10663180
>If no free will, then X would not be morally wrong
>Therefore, it would be morally wrong to judge/treat X as morally wrong
I see you're determined to be a retard.

How many copies did your self-published magnum opus sell, /lit/ard?

>>10663318
Fuck, I love some existentialism. Except for when I was 14. Judging yourself entirely by your action when your actions are 90 percent gay thoughts and masturbation isn't a good time.

>>10663325
They're not. Have you ever killed another person?

>>10663326
>vicious fallacy of cultural Marxism
when people on the far-right say 'cultural Marxism' they just mean Critical theory, Lacan, etc. things which clearly and obviously exist and are influential. Calling that a 'vicious fallacy' is just sad

>>10663298
>Incarceration should be a form of rehabilitation, not punishment
It's both, actually. Some people are beyong rehabilitation though

>>10661801
Not good. Bad to rhyme Deed with Leads, then immediately rhyme Lead with that same Deed. Rhythm is way off for "His words put into your mouth (an uncomfortably strange turn of phrase), another book sold, and on the way, plenty of stories told."Most commas throughout are completely unnecessary and create a very stilted pattern. Worst of all--"to exchange it for another is another". Just abysmal. 10/10

>>10663326
>But his hysterical statements about Marxism and academics undermining western culture are simply impossible to take seriously.
No a fan of reality, are you?

>>10663326
i see. is it possible he's being sloppy with his language while talking about academics? that he's just pointing at a certain part of it, and not the whole?

>>10661859
What's interesting about Brand?

>>10663328
>maps of meaning will never be a successful as its dumbed down self help normie version
why

>>10663326
When he says neo-marxism he means intersectional social justice, which really is a problem. Also cultural marxism aka critical theory is indeed a cancerous influence. Fuck adorno.

>>10663326
What is critical theory?

>>10663335
https://my.mixtape.moe/fveatd.pdf

You know very well it is a far more dangerous game than just that.
Also, if you expand the meaning of cultural marxism to mean any kind of social analysis, then ostensibly this would encompass the whole of modern psychology which Peterson is practicing.

>>10663372
>Also, if you expand the meaning of cultural marxism to mean any kind of social analysis
No one does this. What are you even referencing?

>>10663372
it just means criticism of society which is clearly Marx-esque, ie. it divides society into two classes, one of which is an 'oppressor' that 'exploits' the 'victim'. Forgive us for making up our own term

>>10663359
This philistine complaining that art and media is indoctrinating people into not questioning society and western capitalism. Critical theory pretty much invented looking at art to detect "problematic" messages.

>>10663353
It depends on the school, how much power the poison department has and has spread to students, and who in the administration allows it to perpetuate for fears of being on the news for allegations of ism.

>>10663326
Cultural marxism = neo-marxism, critical theory, marcuse-influenced new left, antonio gramsci
not vicious, not a fallacy, it's actual ideology that exists

>>10663389
>>10663335

Didn't know that /lit/ was that woke.

>>10661801
Enjoyable read.

>>10663353
>As a result of my studies, I have come to believe that Marxism is a murderous ideology. I believe its practitioners in modern universities should be ashamed of themselves for continuing to promote such vicious, untenable and anti-human ideas, and for indoctrinating their students with these beliefs. I am therefore not going to mouth Marxist words. That would make me a puppet of the radical left, and that is not going to happen. Period.

He is not being sloppy with language, he is consciously promoting an alarmist, McCarthyist agenda aimed at the boogeyman of the the evil communists who are ruining everything in our society. This is explicitly political in the worst possible way. Maybe he should take some lessons from the murderous marxist ideolog, and base his comments on a sober socioeconomic analysis without hyperbole.

>>10663417
Marxists are at least as bad as Nazis, so if we're being McCarthyist, you guys have essentially raised McCarthy into your fucking God in your pursuit of anti-nazi policies

>>10663380
>durr hurr hahaha durrr haahhahaha cabitalizm has no agenda its nagur hahaha durrr thisss tv showww with da pawdug blacmnt not probaganxa hahaha durrrf hahahahaha im using nu gooogul erf fo show daa prowdes in reeel dime hahahha hurrrr

>>10663417
Has Marxist ideology ever done anything good?

>>10662135
Michael Bay introduced the Solzhenitsyn to the mainstream (see The Rock)

>>10662336
"the opposite of love is not hate. its indifference"

think about it senpai

>>10663389
Yes just don't call Foucault or Derrida Neo-Marxist or Culturally Marxist because it is patently false, although many of the area were Neo-Marxist progeny that was about the time they realized trying to critique materialist dialectic and class struggle wasn't valid anymore

>>10663417
"as a result of my studies" "i have come to believe" "i believe"

doesn't feel alarmist to me. feels like he's ardent as fuck about that particular subject, probably because his studies have coincided with IRL experiences in the academic environment.

>>10663372
Did you ever even read that PDF? It's fucking retarded and spends a grotesque effort on shit-smearing critics of "cultural Marxism" as antisemites.

Who is this clown anyway? Is it you? It's the only reason I can imagine as to why you'd cite him as some sort of authority on the subject.

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=nxHA5PoAAAAJ&hl=en

>>10663458
He doesn't call them that, but rather he blames their lingering memes for producing intersectional social justice which he calls neo-marxist.

>>10663461
>disagree with a jew
>"oy vey, antisemitism"

Why is this so common?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyQvjKqXA0Y

>>10663455
The opposite of love is ¬love.

>>10663380
>problematic
>no such thing as cultural marxism
w/e/w

>>10663430
Yes, primarily it has brought significant labour rights and increased material well-being to the mass numbers of working-class people all over the world, by presenting a viable threat to liberal capitalism. The triumphal "fall of communism" has overwhelmingly resulted in a vicious propaganda campaign against every gain achieved by organized labour, and a successful counter-revolution in the form of neoliberal policy.
Without the "marxist ideology" we would all literally be working ourselves to death 12 hours a day. Every concession granted to the working class was achieved through struggle, political action and threat of force against the state.
But continue shitting on the communist legacy, I'm sure the corporations and financial elites will pat you on the head for your good work.

>>10663458
You realize that all these thinkers literally discuss the world in the same lens as Marx, discuss the same goals as marx, and devoted their whole careers to saying that marx was too simplistic and crude, right?

>>10663498
Do you really think that Marx was the only person to point out that 19th century workers had it bad? Shit, romanticism became a thing precisely because people in the 19th century were all like "wtf, modern technology and society sucks"

Who is this Pederson and why is he shilled so much here?

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>>10663514
He invented lobsters.

>>10663528
Mass reply should be an instant public ban.

>>10663537
It is.

>>10663498
You do know socialism precedes Marx, right?

>>10663505
>Discuss the same goal as Marx
What the fuck are you talking about you absolute moron? Do you realize that Foucault is one of the most hated thinkers by communists? He literally says that we can never escape power. Go read what he said about Marxism existing in the continental thought as a fish in a barrel

>>10663509
Marx was able to articulate the only movement that was able to affect significant economic change. Yes, socialism has a long history before Marxism, but it was extremely anecdotal and ineffective. Supporting Marxism was simply the most pragmatic option for workers in the 20th century and I have yet to see parliamentary reformism replacing it as a viable ideology.

>>10663546
Maybe, but the 19th century is over.

>>10663546
>socialism

>>10663528
and? What's your point? Should we believe that no actors in Hollywood are skilled or talented because their careers were helped by talent scouts?

>>10663554
Possibly, but I am skeptical about these claims that Marxism is now completely invalidated in the 21st century and we need a new lens. These always turn out to be radical liberalism in one way or another. It is worth noting that contemporary Marxist-Leninists hold some very different positions than classical Marxism. It is true that class analysis that existed in early industrial capitalism isn't the same, but this was never a problem since it was always a historical, dynamic theory. Lenin's theory of imperialism and later world-systems theory were already departures from Marx, who didn't properly account for uneven economic and social development in capitalism, and massive differences between wealthy imperialist states and poor ones that are exploited for cheap labour. In principle, I don't discount the possibility that a genuine socialist movement is impossible in western capitalist countries. But I don't live in them so I'm not gonna base my ideology on the pacified anglo proletariat.

>>10663608
Marxism is irrelevant in a service economy. Ironically, china could use some Marxism. Lmao.

>>10663528
>(((Polish)))

>>10663545
Let me get this straight, you acknowledge that Foucault was not only reacting to Marx, but also that he was trying to identify the functional faults of Marx, but cannot see how they were working towards the same end? Did I not literally say they though Marx simplistic and crude, almost like one might describe as fish in a barrel? They saw the point Marx was trying to make, saw the same goal, but realized the world was far more complicated and immaterial than Marx was able to see. So instead of marching in the streets for workers rights, they spent their careers trying to effect secular utopian systems driven along the fault lines of power and possession and liberation, almost like some kind of post-modernist, non-materialist neo-marxism.

>>10662486
ceci

>>10663626
anti-semitism is bargain-barrel, walmart-rollback, truckstop-bathroom tier larping.

>>10663623
The point is that it is simply impossible for every country to achieve the material wealth of western capitalist countries. They can practice libertarian economics all they want, but neo-imperialism is structurally necessary for monopoly capitalism. This is one of the reasons it is a destructive system. The best thing about a socialist economic system is precisely that it provides a better standard of life ON THE SAME LEVEL OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. It doesn't provide a utopia, but it would be sustainable for long-term development without exploitation. The cost of maintaining high living standards in the first world is simply incredibly huge, and is to the detriment of living standards in the rest of the world.
I don't know what to tell you other than you should carefully read marxist works on imperialism and world systems theory.

>>10663703
>The point is that it is simply impossible for every country to achieve the material wealth of western capitalist countries.
>The cost of maintaining high living standards in the first world is simply incredibly huge, and is to the detriment of living standards in the rest of the world.
If economics is a zero sum game, kow come the standard of living is rising almost everywhere? Also the idea that the west got rich by pillaging the third world is mostly a meme.

>>10663703
There is no such thing as material wealth. Wealth is value. Value is perception. The material that is valued is not the value. Only the message is the message.

>>10663645
Anti-semitism is a time honoured tradition of every people who has ever come into contact with the Jews.

I'm not even an anti-Semitite though, but calling Jews merely 'Polish' is dishonest.

>>10663748
Depending on the situation, a polish catholic and a polish jew will have more in common than a polish jew and a british jew. While they will certainly have some things extremely in common, so too do all catholics have much in common with themselves. The jews are continuously hated because they are continuously an outsider minority that maintains strong group identity. The japanese too were hated by all they came in contact with until the past 30 years. Just because something was a certain way doesn't mean it will or should stay that way.

>>10663717
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_theory

>>10661801
10/10 needs to become copy pasta

>>10662942

Only Americans (retards) read self help garbage.

>>10663427
>Marxists are at least as bad as Nazis

Americans. Not even once.

>>10664057
>>10664035
Go to bed Noam Chomsky.

>>10664057
When will Americans get a clue that the Cold War had no good guys and they deserve no ideological rewards for winning it? The rest of us outside of the imperialist grandstanding got on the best we could and hoped to avoid nuclear annihilation. If there was any "correct" stance it was one taken by the Non-aligned movement. Though, hell, maybe the SU would have been better for national autonomy in the developing world for the long run, but I doubt it.
Once we get over ourselves for winning a football match against communism, we are faced with the sober reality that we're in the same shit as ever. The US is still a military state exerting its will on the rest of the world and giving us political spectacles in the meantime.

>>10663717
>mostly a meme
>>10663798
god fucking damnitt stop being a pseud. if you know something explain it, you fucking nitwit this isn’t a DSA meeting or /leftypol/ if people think you’re retarded or wrong they won’t just read a wikipedia article and be swayed stop being a fucking subhuman, stand by what you say!

>>10664175
the United States is like the Roman Empire bringing order and economic stability to the world, were the Romans dicks sometimes? yeah, but it was better than the 1000 years after the Christians ruined it all, don't let whiney sjw cunts ruin it again

>>10664181
>the christians ruined rome
Imagine being on this level of whiggism

>>10664165

No(am), I will not.

>>10664057
You're right, Marxists killed way more people.

>>10664181

This is your brain on America. Not even once. It's insulting how stupid and ignorant the average American is yet they have the nerve to look down on others because of birth location or something as arbitrary as skin colour. The irony is that the majority of those they snuff their noses at are more intelligent or at least more open-minded than the average American.

>>10664259
There is a clear historical precedent for self-assured, elitist hegemons lacking the vision or nuance that a smaller fry would have. Americans see themselves as the best nation on earth, they lack the basis of struggle that fortifies the intellect of a excluded minority. Many countries have a much more intelligent standard of public debate than America, despite their technical superiority in many aspects. The shit that passes for cultural relevance in the US is a joke.

>>10664259
>or something as arbitrary as skin colou
boy do I have some bad news for you anon

>>10664176
He literally already described dependency theory even before posting the link lol

>>10664376
>r self-assured, elitist hegemons lacking the vision or nuance that a smaller fry would have. Americans see themselves as the best nation on earth, they lack the basis of struggle that fortifies the intellect of a excluded minority
turns out being weak is actually a strength! americans BTFO!

>>10663798
>Dependency theory no longer has many proponents as an overall theory

>>10664181
dumb seppo poster

>>10661747
at one point he says the society made by christianity is much less "barbarian" an the one made by paganism... and he list a few things that seem ethnocentric/ ignorant/oversimplifications like "at least they recognize that feeding slaves to lions is wrong " "they object to infanticide, prostitution, the principle that might means right" "insist women are as valuable as men" "demand that even enemies be regarded as human" ... really? seems there is so many things wrong with this idea, i mean sure all those things end up being ok now but is it christianity that generated them/i bet his take on pagan societies is all wrong and they were more advanced in many ways and if christianity would not have existed we would have reached the same point we are now with possibly a few less bugs in the head like hatred of the body they stuck right in the middle of western culture.

>>10661801
/thread