/lit/ - Literature

...Cause he read Max Weber...

>>10617548
Elaborate.

>>10617324
>fascism is bad

>>10617324
real fascism has never been tried though

How about you read Dialectic of Enlightenment and find out?

>>10618118
why don't you read it and tell me about it?

>>10617324
Cause he was a jew that felt alienated from and angry at gentile society and so developed elaborate attacks on it.

>>10618008
Bureaucracy

>>10618110
This

Instrumental reason
Also: http://www.iep.utm.edu/adorno/#H3
You might wanna read this

>>10618157
he hates music?

>>10617324
I LOVE THE KIDS THAT KNOW ADORNO

>>10617324
Read the book, you retard

>>10618118

This book is as obscure and dense as the asshole of a fag suffering from obesity.

>>10617324
why is pol obsessed with a book that they (nor anybody else, but pol is the only place it's even discussed) won't read

>>10618110
Only successfully -> see Hitler's regime

>>10618579
because Adorno looks kind of funny

>>10617324

We can make this more interesting OP. Why do you think that the Enlightenment could ever lead to Fascism? (also interesting choice of upper case)

Because the enlightenment happened and then fascism happened

>>10618579
Because he's a jew

>>10618658
actually this, but u morons too dense to understand
aims for knowledge leads to aims for perfection
so u get fascism
yes it is bad to search for perfection (the idea of perfecton is fascist itself)

>>10618758
>yes it is bad to search for perfection
y

>>10618766
there is no perfection
so such search it is basically death drive
thirst for annihilation
first u kill those filthy commies\jews\niggas then u go for urself

>>10618776
sounds good

>>10617324
Because it literally did. The enlightenment is the foundation for all philosophical development since.

>>10618840
yeah well why not
go read nick land i hope u got the reference

>>10618110
I see what you did

>>10618868
>thirst for annihilation
> kill those filthy commies\jews\niggas then u go for urself

I see.

>>10617324
smart people : there is no god
dumb people : WE NEED A GOD *creates cults of personality*

>>10618550
Then read the SEP article

>>10618592
>Why do you think that the Enlightenment could ever lead to Fascism?
Because the Enlightenment references the belief in particular ideas, and the belief in the power and worthyness and rightness of those ideas: and when many people believe that, it is possible they cannot accept what they believe to be the wrongness, illpowerful ought be powerless, ideas and ways that do not align with their strong beliefs: thus we believe in ideas and values X: all who do not are an enemy that must be destroyed

>>10618149
I just read a 304 page treatise that threatens enlightenment philosophy and the idea of "Freedom" henceforth to its core

>>10618941
But the enlightenment did not lead to the mindset of
> all who do not are an enemy that must be destroyed
That is just humans being humans.

Stop being white

>>10618776
Not sure what you're quoting, but you gotta' realize your source is about as blind as those who set forth against the third reich. I mean, unless he admits going against a world bank is self-annihilation, then okay, I guess he's right.

>>10617324
dumb marxists never see the forest for the trees

>>10618988
>But the enlightenment did not lead to the mindset of
>> all who do not are an enemy that must be destroyed
why should it not? Why should the Enlightenment of the enlightened tolerate the unenlightened that threaten its peace of mind and peace of society? How can it be said; "we enlightened realize slavery is wrong and cannot exist, but we are aware of it existing over there in that other land, but are satisfied with that"? Is that not then, not truly the enlightenment?

>>10619015
I say the enlightenment did not lead to that mindset because that mindset has existed for thousands of years.
Besides, for me the enlightenment era of thinking is less about finding the truth at all costs and more about the journey/ability of pursuing knowledge.
Also btw, what is "truth" REALLY?

Bunch of faggots mad that mathematics explained world better than philosophy then all gang up on mathematics and science and how it created fascism because it made the world devoid of meaning

hack assfaggots

mass media led to fascism. speed of information, mass alphabetization so people could read news papers with propaganda, radio stations who sung the holy truth all day. it’s always technology and jews never understand that and get lost in talmudic ramblings to explain things as a trasmutation of the world via words and ideologies. fucking hypostating psychotics.

>>10617324
Because De Maistre warned him about Bacon and the empiricists.

>>10618579
>pol
Fuck off to reddit. Now, shitface.

>>10619057
This thread is about enlightenment "thinking". Mathematics + sciences are not under anyone's ire here, you can rest assured.

>>10617324
THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LITERATURE. STOP SHITTING UP THE BOARD WIG OFF TOPIC POLITICAL THREADS

>>10619162
do you unironically believe the enlightenment idelogy led to fascism ideology, in a vacuum? that’s what anon was addressing. technological evolution led to fascism. nazism. shit done by nazis and fascis and allies. the atomic bomb is not a byproduct of enlightenment but of science. enlightenment only served as a justifier for industrial revolution which started first. sorry for the dry materialism but we got to repeat this since this intellectually alienated board descents often into madness.

>>10619012
>muh nazis are anticapitalist
wew lad

>>10618550
It’s not. Stop being retarded

>>10619006

desu evola's radical traditionalist esotericism is anti enlightenment and the neoreactionaries are anti enlightenment desu

>>10619111
appart from the antisemitismus you have some strong knowledge there

>>10619190
this is so dumb

>>10619178
> enlightenment only served as a justifier for industrial revolution

you understood it by yourself, congratz

>>10619178
Not the correct anon. Im the one arguing the enlightenment did not lead to it.

>>10619200
pls be trolling

>>10619215
no. you're retarded

>>10619208
but not for totalitarism, that’s what i’m saying. it would have happened regardless. there were many ideologies opposed to progress (romanticism comes to mind, but also baudelaire & co) but progress itself progressed. not thanks to the enlightenment, positivism and so on... those were beliefs created by people to justify the state of things for themselves and other too ethically obsessed people of what was going on and how it was ok rather than magically permitting it.

>>10619193
i’m sure evola wrote a critique to fascism from a farer right

>>10619200
why is it dumb, because as someone who had a research grant under a Adorno specialist, this is literally the main tenet of Teddy's thought and the only thing Adorno scholars seem to be allowed to talk about.

>>10619328
it’s dumb because we know too damn well how adornians reasons and to which ideology they gravitate around. man i have to admit i’ve never seen people as resented towarsa art as they are.

>>10619338
sorry for typos im form my phone, ill never do this again

>>10618141
>>10619006
How the hell can people think this

If you really want to find an anti white, anti western Jewish edgelord just go after Susan Sontag. Adorno is nothing like /pol/ imagines yet because he was a Marxist and had a Jewish dad they project all their fears onto hin

>>10619338
This has absolutely nothing to do with Adorno's own work and it doesn't change the fact that he denounced the degeneration of culture promoted by capitalism and that was one of his main preoccupations through all of his life.
>Resented towards art
Yeah my lad, I'm sure the Frankfurters where resented about art, which is precisely why they were one of the few academic groups to actively study modernist movements as they started.
Now, please, don't even try to critique modern art, I very much doubt you even know what modern art is and I don't want to have this discussion with another dumb resented scrutonite or whatever it is that you think you are.
Another thing I'm sure you don't know about is "how adornians reason", considering I don't even know anyone who considers themselfes "an adornian" and that if you knew how he reasoned you'd know this is what he actually talks about, not whatever white genocide spook you conjured from your fever dreams of sexual abstinence.

>>10619338
>Leftists are resented about art
>I will also completely chimp out if some nobody superhero gets turned black for some shit movie

>>10619162
god you are stupid

>>10619372
i’m an artist

>>10618110
Define fascism

>>10619402
resented at how it signals status. i can dislike single art pieces though, i’m not resented at tokenism per se but more on how it dampens creativity. if you want, i think black people should be directors rather than make an appearance here and there, that would change the narrative and create a movement of their own.

>>10619409
I very much you're an artist in any official capacity, otherwise you'd have read enough Benjamin and Adorno texts during your education to not sound so oblivious.

>>10619425
both things are happening, but black director with a clear racial thematic are usually relegated to the fringes of the hollywood mainstream, becoming tokens themselves.

>>10619200
t. Brainlet

All you /Pol/tards seriously need to be dealt with

>>10619426
you opened me in half. i have a long story of personal resentment at benjamin. i know personally a clique of cultural studiers full of benjamin and adorno who usually frame contemporary art as a sort of mere capitalism, i have a more joyous approach to it.

>>10619353
>How the hell can people think this
>Adorno is nothing like /pol/ imagines
They know, the people who post anti adorno are high capitalists who want people who might agree and see value in adorno to be afraid to read him and like him

>>10619447
While I probably share your joyous approach to contemporary art, I also find hard to (completely) disagree with said clique thanks to people like pic related or Charles Saatchi (or anyone related to the YBA tbqh, the dullest shit to ever grace contemporary art).

>>10619463
ah! i sell myself on saatchi art online my friend. but i unfortunately minored in philosophy and trust me those people live through words and are genuinely convinced contemporary art is just a monetary investment. i have to read their blogs and magazines (because i’m addicted to the cringe and the spite) and every time i read “cultural produc” in their snarky, dull tone i swear at adorno

If you really want to read and understand Adorno and the Frankfurt School, you should avoid 4chan. Anons ever embarrass (and reveal) themselves as much as they do when they talk about the Frankfurt School. It's pathetic.

>>10619484
>you should avoid the literal only place that talks about these guys at all!
Wow does (((anon))) have ulterior motives?

>>10619508
>only place that talks about these guys at all
Adorno is the literal patron saint of 45% of aesthetics departments, with the remaining 45% alotted to Heidegger and 10% for whatever meme thinker is trendy at any given moment (Bourriaud, Bourdieu, Ranciére, etc.)

>>10619520
>you should go and talk with the fanboys instead of the critics
Really?

>>10619532
Not every Adorno scholar is a fanboy, heideggerian and other schools of aesthetics are critique enough. It still doesn't change the fact that /lit/ is not the only place in which those guys are talked about, you uneducated swine.

>>10619508
Plenty of 'places' and people talk about Adorno mate. He's one of the most towering figures in academia. And lots of people are extremely critical of him beyond the obligatory memes of 'hurr durr he was wrong about jazz' and 'he's a cultural marxist'

>>10619554
>>10619520
>heideggerian and other schools of aesthetics
>45% alotted to Heidegger
What did the lock yourself in a cabin and live in the woods far away from people and things hobbit man know about human artistry and beauty?
>inb4 why dont you read him and find out
hawt lel

>>10619570
fuck me if I know, the origin of the work of art is difficult as fuck (despite being considered introdutory Heidi) but it has something to do with lady farmer's shoes and revealing truth and all that shit.
Now, here's the question: If Frankfurt aesthetics are bad, Heideggerian aesthetics are bad too, what the fuck do you think should be studied in aesthetics departments? Baumgarten? Fucking Roger Scruton?
ARTHUR DANTO aka the living proof analytic philosophy induces autism?

>>10617324
He expanded the meaning of the word "fascism".
He wanted to criticize the presence of technology and its aplications in our lives. for example, he thought that watching commercials was making the worker work even on his free time. He claimed our daily routine had been colonized by technical reason.

>>10619583
greentexts and ironic shitposting

>>10619353
Most fascists i know actually appreciate Adorno's criticism of capitalism.

And what's funny about Sontag is that she admitted in an ungarded moment that fascism might've gotten some things correct.
I'd say the real issues come from Marcuse and his concept of repressive tolerance.

>>10619583
>aesthetics departments
are these the aesthetic departments from everyone to ballet and fine arts oil painters to classical sculpting and contemporary multmedia art?

>>10619835
What? Are you asking if there's people studiong the mediums separatedly? Because they CAN, but they usually study other aesthetes or sometimes living artists. None of those things you've listed are part of the aesthetics department. They're probably departments in themselves in the art schools, while aesthetics is a department in the philosophy and social sciences schools.

>>10619583
>he couldn't handle his Heidegger
Lemme guess, /r/badphilosophy commie?

>>10619848
More like Heidegger's whole idea revolves around the immense platitude of "art is meant to revel truth" (lol teehee suck on that Plato) and some bizarre notion that's just Benjamin's auratic bullshit but even more loaded with ambiguous terms, while also lacking the understanding of modern art Benjamin had.

>>10619861
You didn't answer my question

>>10619111
>Jews never understand that
you don’t see Reason as being an inherent part of the unfolding that is techne anon?

>>10619190
People acuse Adorno instead of Gramsci who literally defended the conquest of cultural hegemony....for marxism. That is very curious.

>>10619879
And you didn't even attempt to refute my very cursory reading of The Origin of the Work of Art, which makes me think you haven't read Heidegger either.
But I'm not a communist and the only time I ever been to reddit was to find the manual installation folder for XCOM 2 mods.

>>10619353
these people don't actually think anything, or read anything. they just heard some paleocon with a bowtie say the cultural marxists are to blame for a perceived western decline and that's enough for them.

>>10619759
how many fascists do you actually know?

>>10619372
>not whatever white genocide spook you conjured from your fever dreams of sexual abstinence
kek

>>10619583
This Artur Danto seems like a nice guy. Art really ended.

>>10618110
fpbp

>>10619759
Jesus, when did Sontag say that? Because she's an edgy liberal I never actually read her books, assuming she had nothing really good to say.

>>10620656
is this bait or are you really that new

>>10619338
Read Minima Moralia, anon.

>>10620727
>fascist post best post
What's wrong here?

>>10620294
This. There's a reason all of them are Jordan Peterson fans

>>10618110
This but unironically

>>10620082
They believe that, since he defended the family institution, he was a reactionary

>>10619353
Sontag is great though.

>>10621348
I will say this once again: defending the family isn't antitethical to communism. Capitalism is the main force behind the erosion of the nuclear family (I'm not making a sexuality or gender distinction here though, I just mean parents + kids but don't know a better term in english) like it once did with the extended family.;

Seriously niggas it ain't that hard.

>>10621348
Wait, Gramsci defended it or Adorno?

>>10622092
This is pretty funny because if you think about it you can twist what he says to imply that contemporary idpol is fascist

>>10618579
>why is pol obsessed

>can't go a single post without crowbarring in /pol/
>is puzzled by others' supposed obsession with things
I like your style.

>>10622113
That's only funny if you completely ignore what Adorno actually said. I doubt he'd be in favor of idpol as it is, turning people's identities into prepackaged forms ready to be sold as rebellion.

>>10622125
Then what would Adorno say about racial identity?

>>10622132
I've never seen a text of him dealing with race and as far as I can deduce, he'd probably consider someone's cultural identity rather than race.

>>10618579
I don't know, why do you bring up /pol/ in every thread

>>10622113
There's nothing to be twisted, the kind of forceful praxis the idpols propose was explicitly criticized by him as the same issue of practical reason.

The Dialectic of Enlightenement, which I read in its French translation, felt over-complicated and obscure. Which other content by Adorno would you advise to better get a grasp on him and his philosophy?

>>10622125
>That's only funny if you completely ignore what Adorno actually said.
Why?
>Bourgeois society is ruled by equivalence
"We're all humans" is the mantra of contemporary idpol. It implies that beyond all our differences, be it social, racial, cultural or whatever, there's a kernel of "humaness" which unites us all. Obviously this imagined proto-human or ur-human or whatever you wanna call it coincides with the western idea of a human being which we created in the enlightenment. Alle menschen werden bruder and so on and so forth (sniffs).
>To the enlightenment, that which does not reduce to numbers and ultimately to the one, becomes illusion.
This is observable in how modern politically correct culture treats identities. Religion, culture, beliefs are all allowed as long as they are tame enough: you can be a christian, a muslim, an atheist, a mexican, an italian transgender sexbot. Everything's fine as long as you don't touch the other groups and as long as you allow everyone to be an happy consumer. Identities are illusions, simple little quirks that we need to accept without thinking about it too much. In this way everything that contradicts the idpol narrative is made meaningless, irrational. Want to be a christian? That's all fine and dandy. But God forbid you actually say something bad about gay people! Want to be an atheist? Cool. But don't ever attack islam. Want to be a vegan? Fine, but stop harassing meat eaters etc etc. Serious, strong beliefs are shunned.
You don't conform to my superficial nonconformity? You're a fascist, a brocialist, a dumb feminist and a sexist islamophobe.

There's also the fact that idpollers tend to strongly believe in controlling language because "language carries political connotations". I hope I don't need to point out the similarity with fascism here.

>>10622182
Humanism is older than enlightenment and you're still ignoring Adorno's work, life and theories in the name of a imaginary Adorno which wants to destroy the white race or whatever it is you think the bald fuck wanted to do.
As other anons pointed out, he would most likely be against retarded american internet idpol, as are most serious leftist thinkers.

>>10622195
I agree except for
>as are most serious leftist thinkers.
You're being far too optimistic here.

>>10622195
>name of a imaginary Adorno which wants to destroy the white race or whatever it is you think the bald fuck wanted to do
wot lol. I'm a leftist.
>he would most likely be against retarded american internet idpol
...but that's what I said. I was applying his analysis of instrumental reason to contemporary idpol to show how it's a bourgeois movement.

>>10622205
i don’t think idpol per se is a bourgeois or fascist movement. it’s certainly cuddled by ~liberals~ but it’s a movement from a mass of people who aren’t philosophically literate, it’s just a mass screaming for piety and consideration. kids with a platform.

>>10620294
>>10620844
>Implying /pol/ would like center right cucks that don't even have the balls to call out Jewish subversion.
At least try to be intellectually honest

>>10619444
>Brings up another board without reason on /lit/
RENT FREE LIVING IN YOUR HEAD

>>10619353
>>10619006
>Psychopathologizing gentile ethnic interests, group strategy and family identification is not socially subversive
Lmao, the people eager to jump in and defend critical theory are always the dumbest fucks with the biggest egos. Just admit that you're a cuck for the jews and that you hate your own people.

Because he was unsalvageably traumatized and damaged, like all post WW2 writers and thinkers.

>>10622580
Western ones anyway.

>>10622589
Murakami literally sudokued himself because he felt like the emperor was a dum dum who disrespected the young men who died in the war by denying his divinity (lolwut you fucking manlet what are you even on)

>>10622601
you mean Mishima right?

>>10622608
Yeah sorry, I was reading about Ryu Murakami just a bit ago

>>10622580
Not quite /lit/ related but I recently read an interesting piece which tries to argue that post-war architecture is a result the PTSD and autism (lol) of pioneering modernist architects.

http://commonedge.org/the-mental-disorders-that-gave-us-modern-architecture/

>>10622580
>>10622589
>muh holocaust
>muh 6 million
>muh the anonymous martyrs of the concentration camps are the symbols of humanity that is striving to be born.