/lit/ - Literature

>>10586881
I have only read Crisis of the Modern World, but that was a while ago and pretty hastily. I have read a little of a certain other esoteric writer favoring the worrior, though.

>why does he think the esoteric metaphysics of judaism, christianity, islam, mahayana buddhism, hinduism, daoism, etc. have all remained unchanged
I wouldn't know, looking at India today is enough proof to me it in fact has changed, quite a lot.

>are identical to each other
I suppose for these traditions to have a source of perennial truth to them means they all share something eternal (which might not be visible at first glance). So it would mean that these religions and traditions are all in a way materilaizations in a particular culture/place of a higher order/truth etc.

>and can only be taught through initiation
Because fucking plebs (not joking).

>>10586881
It is important to distinguish the content of the metaphysics, which is something transcendent, from the worldly manifestation of the metaphysics in books and speach. The content is eternal, beyond time, and so never changes, and is the same everywhere, while the outer dimension of the teachings are obviously subject to change, since they are temporal.

And so initation takes you from the outer metaphysics into the inner, from the temporal to the eternal. From there we can see the importance of the initiatic order: it ensures that the contact with the inner, esoteric dimension of life is never lost, and that we do not forget how to use the outer metaphysics to reach the inner.

The key point is that esoteric metaphysics is not human knowldege, it does not take place here in this world through our human faculties, and so it cannot be contained in language at all. We could say that it is the knowledge that God has of himself, and by participating to it, the finite creature understands its relation to the infinite substance.

Hope this helps

>>10586881
>remained unchanged

The esoteric core is outside of time and space.
How could it change?

>>10587000
This.

The important thing to know is that the truth that the traditions AIM AT is universally accessible to true seekers of knowledge. The tradition itself is a guide and a help to getting there, and provided any given tradition has attracted true seekers, it will contain glimmers and threads of the real truth that you can follow.

Think of it like going to a group meeting of people who are seriously interested in learning the real truth of something. A lot of the people in the group will be misguided, some maybe shouldn't be there at all, but there will be a few who are on the right track, and they will know things beyond themselves (like great teachers or texts of the past) that you can follow up on too.

All that being said, keep in mind that most traditionalists are Schuonians whose idea of following a tradition is to do whatever Nasr tells them and never think for themselves. As someone who has actually been part of this cult in person, I strongly advise you to separate Guenon and his writings from people who claim to be Guenonians, and make your own judgments about the latter when you meet them.

>>10587101
Did nasr touch you in a bad place?

>>10587101
thanks anon, can you tell us more about your cult experience?

To say that something is esoteric and needs initiation is redundant. As for the metaphysics of religious traditions, what do you think is it that allows these various traditions you listed in OP to have interfaith dialogue in the first place? Surprise, surprise, you find transcendence being taught in all of them. Do you perhaps think that the observation that a Mahayana Buddhist monk wears different clothes than an Daoist is a valid cause for conflict? You may entertain the notion that you might be a brainlet, but you are not THAT big of a brainlet, are you? Because you did notice that we live in an age of religious pluralism, did you? So will you please leave people cataloguing tearing each other over the tiniest of superficial, exoteric differences to people like Twitter leftists and other witch hunters, while the saintly men and women that know better can pray for peace together according to their particular traditions, languages, etc.? Are we going to have a problem or what?

>>10587316
how unhappy are you

>>10586881
Perrenialism is retarded.

If all religions are true, none of them are true.

They are all separate paths that lead to different destinations.

>>10587352
?

Initiation is a natural process that happens only when your soul is ready


No turning back once committed

>>10587395
Have you been initiated?

>>10587416
Yeah, I'm not going to lie.

It follows a similar pattern of bi-polar negatives and positives, but it equals out and you learn to 'focus', and the information starts coming more clear.

>>10587354
>lmao dude nothing is real xd

Is that guy CIA?

>>10587462
what do you mean by similar?

>>10587462
what tradition do you follow?

>>10587462
Can you fail? How does one fail once he has started? How long does it take to finish after the bipolar reaction happens?

>>10586881
He didn't mention Christianity and Judaism much.

For the most part he seemed to see correspondences between taoism, sufism and Vedanta and draw conclusions based on that

>>10587603
That's not what he said.

>>10589512
You can fail by giving up and deciding not to seek anymore.

Some fail because they couldn't take it.

Theres this turkish movie called takva you should watch.

>>10587766
Read the dark night of the soul, by Saint John of the Cross.
>>10588328
My own, but it was formed by Buddhism, and Hermetic laws correlated to Jesus's life and parable.

I studdied a bit of the Kabbalah, but realized the kabbalah just sets up a guide, and the sephirothic tree is just a map.

>>10589512
Giving up, or losing sight of what is Holy would be failure.

You go through waves as you climb the tree

>>10586881
He doesn't say that there has been no change, in fact he says the opposite. He teaches that modern religions are heavily degenerated. Even within many "esoteric" circles, these modernist degenerations have taken place. What his works set out to prove is that the founding primordial truths of the global traditions are all identical. I apologize if this doesn't answer your question properly, but it's important to distinguish between timeless metaphysical truths and whatever some preacher is shouting on the street.

>>10590512
why does he think he was able to determine this timeless metaphysical truth, even before his bout with sufism?

>>10590512
He doesnt say all of them. He didn't like Christianity or Buddhism. Despite what others say. His writings speak for themself.

>>10590810
His first contact with Sufism was at least as early as 1912 if not 1910, that's before his degree in philosophy, and in 1909 he founded La Gnose, where he wrote on these topics well before his first book, decades before going to Cairo.

So he was already researching into various traditions and receiving initiation from several esoteric circles during his youth. His first book being on Hinduism, after which he began by writing on "theosophism" (Guenon distinguishes between Blavatsky's stuff and earlier uses of the word theosophy) and French spiritism and what they were arguing against (otherwise they wouldn't need to found new religious movements), that he had found himself rejecting theosophism and muh mediums as a continuation of Western theosophical practices, and that thaks to them he came to the realizaton that indeed the old school folks were doing it right all along. It was only a matter of time before he'd be ready to join the Sufi guys for real.

Why do people have such a big problem about the observation that theistic religious traditions happen to be teaching theism, anyway?

>>10591091
interesting, but what he stresses later on as initiation, certainly he hadn't undergone that before he came to an understanding of metaphysics he was happy with, no?

>>10591142
I would say his encounter with initiation within bigger traditions rather than hermeticists etc. begins in 1908 where he meets qualified Indians, but you could say it could have began earlier still since he studied in Catholic schools managed by religious orders, there's nothing to indicate his esoteric interests and studies could not be ignited then. Even so his later writings are but clarifications of positions he consistently held all along, and your quest for an epistemological break in his thought seems pointless to me. Do you have an axe to grind or what?

>>10591225
why do you think i have an axe to grind? im genuinely curious in the guy and find his writings fascinating but cant wrap my head around a few points i think are crucial. why do you think i have it out for him? quite the opposite

>>10587395
>personal initiation
Guenon didn't believe in that sort of meme

>>10589956
>He didn't mention Christianity and Judaism much.
that's true, but he seemed to imply in several different places that medieval christianity had a true initiation path and was less degenerate than classical antiquity in europe

but that knowledge was cut at some point, he seems to imply around the Protestant Reformation, but knowing Guenon he would probably say that things were already going in the wrong direction before that, he doesn't seem the kind of guy that believes in single events marking history

>>10587101
>>10587177
>>10587183
Seconded, you can't say something like that and not provide any information qualifying it.

>>10593415

Not that guy but he may be referring to the Maryamiyyah. In his old age Schuon went off the deep end and started a """"sufi"""" movement that did all sorts of weird stuff which was eventually took over by Nasr after Schuon's death. Nasr lives in the DC region and the cult subsequently became like a club for deep state members and has all these weird links to the CIA, the gulf monarchies and the now defunct regime of the Shah. Nasr himself apparently used to the advise the CIA/SAVAK on which dissident Iranian expats should be whacked. Pynchon's already got the plot of his next novel laid out for him lol.

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/330756443/Sufism-in-the-Service-of-Empire-the-Case-of-the-Maryamiyyah

With all that being said what the anon stated is correct. The eccentricities and misjudgments of certain self-styled traditionalists has no bearing upon the core ideas of Traditionalism as a whole or the more grounded ones like Guenon and Coomaraswamy. Just because some people attain high levels of wisdom and spiritual achievement but then fall into ignorance or sin doesn't invalidate the spiritual path itself.

>>10594002
Huh, that's interesting and spooky. So many weird things going on underneath the surface.

>>10594641
traditionalists straight-up recruit and mind-enslave interesting people in universities anon

it's fun to be the center of attention when you're a weird loner who reads mystical philosophy and suddenly youre surrounded by well meaning types who seem to take it as seriously as you do, so its easy to get suckered in by their cult bullshit

remember, individuality and personhood are integral to the western spirit, and the western spirit has its own path and its own traditions. dont fucking listen to sufis. many traditionalists are well meaning but its a pyramid scheme cult

>>10594649
Thanks for the advice. I have taken it to heart.
Just curious, what do you follow now? And do you have any book recommendations outside of the big ones: guenon, coonlmaraswamy et al?

>>10594672
Marco Pallis, Julius Evola and Titus Burckhardt. Aldous Huxley, and Mircea Eliade aren't Traditionalists, but they are worth looking into.

>>10594672

Not him but some great texts/authors are

Chinese:Tao Te Ching, Zhuangzi, Analects of Confucius

Buddhist: the discourses of Buddha (Bhikku Bodhi's translations are good), the Milinda Pañha, the heart sutra, diamond sutra, lotus sutra

Hindu: The Prasthanatrayi and the commentaries on them by Adi Shankara as well as his non-commentary works in particular Upadesasahasri, the Bhagavata Purana, The Yoga Vasistha, Ashtavakra Gita, the Shiva Sutras, Pratyabhijnahrdayam, Vijnanabhairava

Western: Plotinus, Eckhart, Philo, some western philosophers wrote certain texts that are in certain cases very much in line with eastern thought like Spinoza's ethics for example

Don't know as much about Sufism but Rumi is good

>>10591464
Perhaps, but I invoked some far back informatiom from upon my self, so I'm not really sure then?

>>10594774
>>10594811
This is me here, but I actually meet with different pastors and leaders of many places.

Mostly christianity, but some Buhhai faith people and a couple others

>>10594672

tldr: Guenon and Coomaraswamy are modern authors who analyze, study, comment on and explain the ancient/primary texts and traditions as are the people in this post >>10594774

The ones in this post are the actual texts from those eras and traditions >>10594804

Reading the modern commentators and the ancient texts themselves complement each other. Reading people like Guenon and others helps you get the right mindset and background knowledge to properly study and understand the primary texts while reading the primary texts makes it much more enjoyable and worthwhile to read the modern commentatators because then you'll know exactly what they're talking about. There is no necessary order for reading any of this but I would say the best starting point is probably Guenon's 'Introduction to the study of Hindu Doctrines' which can be found for free online.

>>10594804
It's better to avoid studying the Eastern traditions since westerners for the life of them can't study them without fucking it up, and western scholarly sources on the subject is a minefield of bullshit. Case in point, the typical western interpretation of chakras is way off.
>http://tantrikstudies.squarespace.com/blog/2016/2/5/the-real-story-on-the-chakras

>>10594891
Thanks anon good link

>>10594891
>It's better to avoid studying the Eastern traditions since westerners for the life of them can't study them without fucking it up

that's quite a leap of logic from scholars getting confused about chakras

this thread got mad interesting

>>10594002
can we please here more of your personal story

Can someone explain something to me?

Evola wrote on the "metaphysics" of sex and of war and their initiatic qualities, and yet the immorality of both has been demonstrated by many religious men and philosophers. Evola also seemed seduced by Crowley's teachings.

It is as if Guenon and Evola seemed to fail to grasp the significant differences between paganism and Christianity, instead arguing that in reality, both were covers for the same "esoteric" and initiatic tradition, but, as far as I can tell, this is to miss certain key points concerning morality as demonstrated by Kant, Weininger, Girard, and others. Kant did not seem to have a high regard for the traditions of the Hindus or the Egyptians, but this is perhaps because Kant was relatively unfamiliar with the texts. Perhaps this has something to do with Guenon's criticism of Kant. Weininger and Girard would have held these same traditions in higher esteem, though they fixated upon Christianity as being a sort of vanguard for a morality higher than anything paganism had produced.

I am mostly concerned that people like Evola and Guenon and their followers suffer from a kind of elitism that you find a lot in the occult. On the one hand you have people like Crowley and Blavatsky, who surround themselves with symbols and rites and things of the sort, and on the other hand you have someone like a St. Augustine, who attains to the divine through profound resignation. Evola and Guenon seem to tend more towards the former.

>>10595676
>I am mostly concerned that people like Evola and Guenon and their followers suffer from a kind of elitism that you find a lot in the occult. On the one hand you have people like Crowley and Blavatsky, who surround themselves with symbols and rites and things of the sort, and on the other hand you have someone like a St. Augustine, who attains to the divine through profound resignation. Evola and Guenon seem to tend more towards the former.
i mean not sure about Evola but Guenon was against syncretism. He uses the symbol of the wheel where different traditions are the radius pointing to the same immovable center, but at the same time it makes no sense to mix components from different traditions because they work as a whole, not as isolated components to be consumed by modern isolated individuals

>>10595676
>yet the immorality of both has been demonstrated by many religious men and philosophers
As exoteric teachings targeting slobbering idiots with no self-control to save their lives, or as esoteric ones for already disciplined initiates?
>Kant did not seem to have a high regard for the traditions of the Hindus or the Egyptians, but this is perhaps because Kant was relatively unfamiliar with the texts.
This is so stupid. Kant died in 1804 and the Rosetta Stone was found only in 1799.
>a kind of elitism that you find a lot in the occult
I can't find definitions for esotericism or occultism where the stuff doesn't involve a bunch of secrets hidden from, or otherwise unavailable to, unwashed plebs, an outcome not surprising at all given the two etymologies, and of course the ever-present claims of transmission of said secrets from master to teacher, hence the whole business of initiation.

>>10595676

>Can someone explain something to me?

You made half a dozen different points, it's not clear whether there's an overarching question you want answered.

I'm not aware of any case where Guenon argued that Christianity and Paganism were part of the same initiatic tradition unless you mean paganism in a really broad sense so as to include the eastern religions, if that were so Guenon didn't really think that because he thought that aside from a few exceptions such as during the middle ages and a few secretive modern initiatic groups that Christianity was for the most part lacking a comprehensive metaphysical teaching.

His criticism of Kant more stems from the fact that Kant attempted to systematize everything and as Guenon says, systematic thought is inherently anti-metaphysical. When one attempts to formulate a systematic philosophical view one is attempting to establish one's own personal views and bias as a universal truth, which is the opposite of metaphysics in the Guenonian sense of the word which has to so with timeless and universal truths that exist outside of historical contingencies and personal opinions.

Guenon writes in chapter 10 of "intro to hindu doctrines" about how Kant and other western philosophers attempt to substitute a theory of knowledge for knowledge itself. Similar to how Guenon says westerners mistakenly associate the word intellect with logic/rationality and that the highest form of intellect is actually supra-rational, he says that the true meaning of knoweldge or the highest form of knowledge is one where there is no distinction between knowledge and the object of knowledge, which is the case with the metaphysical but not the rational as found in western philosophy.

>>10596197
>targeting slobbering idiots with no self-control to save their lives
>unwashed plebs

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Believe me, I have struggled in recent years with disdain for the masses. It is easy to go around, being disgusted by mass culture, living in perpetual hatred of everyone around you. It took me a long time to get over this. Ultimately, you cannot hate them, because as long as you hate them, you cannot heal them, and as long as you cannot heal them, you are one of them. This is truth, and no true saint has not overcome this ugliness in themselves.

Again, believe me, this is one of the hardest things to overcome, but it is necessary. Consider this teaching from the Apophthegmata Patrum:

>2. When the same Abba Anthony thought about the depth of the judgments of God, he asked, 'Lord, how is it that some die when they are young, while others drag on to extreme old age? Why are there those who are poor and those who are rich? Why do wicked men prosper and why are the just in need?' He heard a voice answering him, 'Anthony, keep your attention on yourself; these things are according to the judgment of God, and it is not to your advantage to know anything about them.'

In other words, you cannot attain freedom until you have stopped using a disdain for the masses as a spiritual crutch, which is really what it is. You have to liberate yourself from them by keeping your thoughts from wandering towards them and "keeping your attention on yourself".

>>10596204
>Christianity was for the most part lacking a comprehensive metaphysical teaching.

And this is what I don't understand. As far as I can tell, the Gospels contain, in the few but profound words of Christ, the bridge between worldly life and the divine life which are interceded by faith. This is presented perfectly in the Gospels, and has been expounded upon by the writers I named in my other post, as well as many others, St. Bernard of Clairvaux, for instance, who Guenon wrote about. And the way of faith is clearly opposed to violence according to the teachings.

What Girard has shown is that other traditions lack this fundamental distinction to a greater or lesser degree, and I'm wondering what is lacking in Christianity, according to Guenon, which is apparently critical for initiation?

>>10596295
http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/authors/Rene-Guenon.aspx

Beginning in the fifth paragraph there is some information on Guenon's relationship with the Church, but like you I don't know the particulars of why Guenon felt Christian esoterism was unusually hollow, or why he had the "resignationist" approach, other than a hunch that his views were rooted more in a vision of processive samsara than Christian soteriological eschatology. Evola's elitism was more aristocratic and triumphalist, from what I can tell, but Guenon may have had the muted spiritual aristocratism of many orientals, who tend to put Law before Spirit. They also lack a personalist element, no respect for anthropos.

Have you looked into anthroposophy? Owen Barfield can be a good introduction before reading Steiner.

Personally I am suspicious of the flabby secular universalism of contemporary Christianity. Universalism is fine but it should be a universal striving. Contempt for the masses is a good thing to a certain extent. It doesn't rule out charity or compassion. Contempt for mass-ness is maybe a better way to put it - even Nietzsche's blond beast didn't despise and trample on the herd, only didn't give them any thought at all.

>>10596295
Recruits are made to wear the same clothes, carry the same rifle, are made to repeat the same drills endlessly in large groups, and the sarge hazes the shit out of them. Special forces' workplace has a more relaxed atmosphere, whichever weapons they want are allowed, the basics have already been mastered, hazing isn't anywhere near as necessary. The esoteric guys are - or at least claim to be - the special forces of religion. And no, not everybody gets to make it into the special forces.

Back to Matthew 13 you go:

10 Then the disciples came and asked him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 13 The reason I speak to them in parables is that ‘seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.’ 14 With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah that says:

‘You will indeed listen, but never understand,
and you will indeed look, but never perceive.
15
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are hard of hearing,
and they have shut their eyes;
so that they might not look with their eyes,
and listen with their ears,
and understand with their heart and turn—
and I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 Truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but did not see it, and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it.

And again the Gospels go showing that there is a hierarchy going on: Mark 10:40, Luke 8:10...

How about Matthew 25?

Then the kingdom of heaven will be like this. Ten bridesmaids took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 When the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, all of them became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look! Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those bridesmaids got up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise replied, ‘No! there will not be enough for you and for us; you had better go to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy it, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went with him into the wedding banquet; and the door was shut. 11 Later the other bridesmaids came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’

1/2

>>10596295
2/2
If you knew the first thing about the people you meme, you'd know Girard is a Catholic, he gets his teachings from an ordained priesthood claiming to receive the teachings directly from Jesus' disciples, he does not receive sacraments and teachings from random strangers on the internet. In his tradition, unlike American protestantism, there is an unmistakably clear separation between clergy and laity. Ask any priest if the Gospels are, in fact, esoteric texts

The reason you cannot tell exoteric from esoteric is because you are presently wearing a fedora around your neck, restricting blood flow in and out of your head.

>>10596376
If it is truly contempt it should be done away with. It is most surely experienced as God's wrath rather than his love, and thus contemptuous are destined to become tyrants rather than saints, working just as much for death and destruction as those they enslave. Think of the angel who opens the gate into the deeper rings of hell in the Inferno. Such a being does entertain contempt even for demons, but "floats" in a state of peace above them.

has anyone here been in or almost joined a cult and could describe how it went down, how they got out, what they feel about it

>>10596448
>>10596454
Yes, Christ spoke in parables to the masses, and knew many, most would not understand them.

What I am talking about is actually harboring contempt. Though Christ spoke to the masses in parables he did not harbor in himself an ugly contempt and resentment for even the lowliest and most tyrannical.

When you use certain words to refer to those below you, I know that you are not really above them, though you think you are.

Consider a parent which has contempt for a child merely because the child is childish. Such a characteristic would very obviously appear as a blemish on the part of the parent and betray a lack of true maturity.

>>10596454
>>10596487
Also, I am aware Girard is a Catholic, but I do not understand the remark about the fedora, since I have never seen someone wear one around their neck.

>>10596487
Furthermore, this is why pride is such an issue for ascetics. When the enter into the world, they begin to feel the contempt of the masses, and are revolted by what they see. Born in this vacuum is pride, an ugly self-serving pride. It is like something is split in two, one side turning into hatred and the other side turning into pride, and both are vanity. Monks flee from the world because of the danger of this pride, which is born out of contempt and disdain for the masses.

>>10596487
>Though Christ spoke to the masses in parables he did not harbor in himself an ugly contempt and resentment for even the lowliest and most tyrannical.
Well, he's sending them all in the great fire, the one he spends the Gospels warning people about more than talking about heaven, but as we all know this kind of torment is the second best thing ever, as long as mean words aren't involved. No hard feelings, right? Or as the meme goes: psssh... nothin personnel...kid...
>>10596504
>Also, I am aware Girard is a Catholic, but I do not understand the remark about the fedora, since I have never seen someone wear one around their neck.
Because even those with fedoras on their head understand that there is no priesthood without laity, no believers without unbelievers, no saints without sinners, no inclusion without exclusion, no in without an out. Thus the magnitude of your projection of hubris upon people can only be described with bizarre metaphors or parables, that only the elect would understand.

>>10596578
Isn't this just running away from the problem though? Surely it is better to temper the will with the trials of the world as the flame.

>>10594774
How is Eliade not a traditionalist?

>>10596479
Yes I joined a sufi cult when I was young and was traumatized by it

The feelings of betrayal, anger, depression, hatred were overwhelming and I almost committed suicide.

>>10595676
Neither of them thought chrisitianity was anything good. For them the pagan traditions are where the fundamental unity lies, not including Christianity

>>10598600
Come on, you're going to have to provide more details than that if you want to be believed on an anonymous imageboard

>>10598743
What do you want to know about it?

>>10598834
which cult? how did you get involved? what were their practices? were they orthodox muslims? are you a muslim by birth? why did you leave? did it take you a long time to realize you didn't belong there?

>>10598919
First of all, are you a Muslim?

I want to know if you have ulterior motives to asking these questions

>>10598834
Not that anon, but I'm really curious. I've heard that Sufi orders are supposed to be able to trace themselves back to Mohammed, or at least to some of the very first Sufis. Was yours one of these? Also what led you to join them?

(I'm a Hindu, not a Muslim.)

>>10598357
Since when did he say he was one?

Anyone have the link of a youtube video where Prince Charles talks about Rene Guenon and tradition?

>>10599423
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnnXKmGQ4nI

>>10586881
So that he could own them all and interpret them for you

>>10599322
>>10599322
Yes Bhai, it supposedly went back to Ali Ibn abi talib.

But really we have no reason to believe that about any of these groups since the earliest records about muhammad's life are hundreds of years removed from his death.

I have spent time with other Sufi orders besides this one, like the naqshbandis and chistis in India (I'm indian) and egypt.

Perhaps to say traumatized is an exaggeration, but I became disillusioned with Islam after that and spent a year or so looking critically at the evidence before leaving islam.

That was a long time ago and since then I found some one to teach me raja yoga which is infinitely much better than anything in Islam/sufism.

Islam just doesn't fit with the indian mind in my opinion.

>>10598604
depends what you mean by paganism, Guenon held in higher regard christian medieval society than pagan classical antiquity

>>10599022
No, I'm not. I've been interested in traditionalism and traditionalist authors for two years now, and most of them are Muslim. I also considered converting at one point, but ultimately decided I wasn't convinced. I respect Islam as a religion, though.

>>10600036
Ok well it wouldn't call itself a cult, and it was based on rigidly orthodox islam, the shafii school. Their practices were thikr and awrad, as well as the mawlid. It was a Madrassa in Yemen where they taught fiqh, Arabic and other Islamic sciences with a focus on "tazkiyah" or tasawuff.

There was nothing goofy about it, it was the same Islam I had experienced before which was one factor that led me to become disillusioned with the whole thing. It just leads nowhere as a whole. I've seen/learnt/read enough about Islam to make certain definite conclusions about it. I don't believe Sufi practices can lead to real and sustained higher consciousness or realization as guenon thought, even though I did get a few glimpses of higher states doing Sufi practices, generally speaking there is no intellectual framework in Islam to explain what you will experience. I didn't meet anyone who could explain to me what I had seen, because the Islamic worldview/theology doesn't allow for it's possibility, same as chrisitianity. Not even so called sufi shaykh, they don't know anything and can't explain anything that you might experience. The intellectual framework just isn't there, it's all done without understanding. This is one thing that led me to suspect that what is going on doesnt have anything to with Islam and more to do with me and my own potential consciousness, it seems to me that most people just are incapable of these things even if they are doing practices.

But later I did meet some people who could explain things, Yogis and some gurdjieff people. Islam just doesn't have this.

No I wasn't "born" a Muslim but I had Muslims and Hindus in my family, my parents didn't force me to follow anything so when I got older and made a Muslim friend I became interested in it.

Just put this together in MS Paint, for those new to Guenon.

>>10600187
Cool, thanks.
>even though I did get a few glimpses of higher states doing Sufi practices, generally speaking there is no intellectual framework in Islam to explain what you will experience. I didn't meet anyone who could explain to me what I had seen
I think this is a result of the conditions of our current age. That kind of knowledge, and qualified people to disseminate it are difficult, perhaps nearly impossible to find. I've also become somewhat disillusioned in my searches.
>gurdjieff people
I have experience with Gurdjieff people, I've concluded it's spiritually and intellectually bankrupt. It's a dead end, don't waste your time with them. They mean well, though. I have nothing against them personally.

>>10600187
Islam has mysticism

>>10600270
added one more thing

>>10600270
For the most part i agree with your comments on gurdjieff people

However I met one teacher who was able to explain everything and his practices actually worked. I found something better later so I didn't stick with it.

>>10600270
What's your experience with gurdjieff people

>>10599438
this is dope

>>10600397
can you describe some of the 'practices', sufi, gurjieff or the yogan ones you experience now and which ones you felt did what for you and which ones you felt did nothing for you and what you had hoped to glean from them?

>>10599369
You don't have to say you belong to some category to belong to some category, with a few exceptions.

>>10600276
Where can you read about it?

>>10601032

The Sufi word and mawlid were pointless. The thikr was done for reward not with anything else in mind but I did experience what you might describe as disengagement of my "I" from my body and from a detached position "witnessing" of the "gunas". Another time "I" withdrew from "here" into a a different feeling of "I". A feeling of "I" that's nowhere, not here or anywhere else.

Islam has no doctrines regarding this. From their perspective you are just a creation of God with no reality of its own. Even if some sufi literature implies otherwise, in the real world you won't find anyone agreeing.

Whereas Vedanta/samkhya and gurdjieff has explanations for what is going on.

>>10602479
/x/

>>10603917
Wird not word*

>>10603925
>

There is a distinction to be made: *metaphysics* is unchanged and eternal. What is metaphyic but the order of principles? The various traditions, like all points of view, inevitably participate in metaphysics; metaphysics is irrefutable.

They, however, are not always equivalent in their considerations. For example, Western theology does not extend beyond Being i.e. the principle or raison d'etre of manifestation. Therefore, the traditions are not equivalent. Traditionalism is not syncretism.

>>10602479
mystic dimensions of islam, annemarie schimmel

western sufism, mark sedgwick

western sufism is a cult, it uses the lack of esoteric tradition in the west to masquerade as the One True Solution

>>10600399
cult

huuuuuuuuuuuuge cult

y'all need to read up on the "Cultic Milieu," there is a reason all these philosophies speak to each other and people ping between them until they find someone charismatic enough to dominate their minds

don't join ANY cult

learn from whatever you want, but the instant you think someONE has all the answers (or is the only possible guide to finding all the answers), you have been ensnared

Did Guenon ever address the line "No one comes to the Father but through me" of Christianity?

>>10605441
>learn from whatever you want, but the instant you think someONE has all the answers (or is the only possible guide to finding all the answers), you have been ensnared
well, that's why normal traditions and religions were organically embedded into a society, nowadays cults have no responsibility except in their own echo chamber, so the worst of vices get magnified as soon as they get isolated and there's no corrective element, that's why if you want to try something like that you might as well try to reintegrate yourself in your local tradition, whatever that is, and see if there's some kind of initiatic path inside that

>>10606155
i haven't seen Guenon address this anywhere, this guy with a blog tries to address it:
http://www.interspirituality.com/729/
>We see a similar division in understanding among Christians. Take, for example, John 14:6, the classic proof-text for exclusivist Christian theologies: “Jesus said to him [the apostle Thomas], ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” For the exoteric, this is heard to mean that without knowledge (and acceptance) of Jesus and the Christian religion, salvation is impossible. The esoteric, however, remembers that John has introduced Jesus as the embodiment of the universal Logos, “the light of all people” (John 1:4) and it is this voice that they hear speaking, not simply a limited, historical personality. In this vein, Fr. John-Julian Swanson, OJN interprets this passage: “He is the Way—that is, any human way to God is Christ. He is the Truth—that is, every truth is Christ. He is the Life—that is, every life is Christ. There is no way to the Father except through the Christ, so all ways to the Father are also Christ, even when that is not overtly stated.”[61] Again, in typical mystical fashion, the particular is universalized, just where the exoteric would expect to make their greatest case for exclusivity.

>>10586881
>why does he think the esoteric metaphysics of judaism, christianity, islam, mahayana buddhism, hinduism, daoism, etc. have all remained unchanged, are identical to each other, and can only be taught through initiation?
Because he's an idiot and a pseud, like all modernist humanists.

>>10606207
>doesn't fall for the progress meme
>modernist humanist
really makes you think

>>10606215
There's a branch of modernist humanism that rejects progress and socialism. Guenon, Evola and Dostoyevsky, for example, all fall into this camp.

This doesn't make them all any less shit or any less wrong.

Hippies reject progress too, but to claim that they aren't modernist or humanist is insanity.

>>10606229
what does modernist even mean at that point?

>>10606229
>modernist humanism
>Evola

>>10600296
thank you for the chart

>>10606199
interesting, thanks

Guenon has an interesting approach to universalism/ecumenicism without ever resorting to liberalism

>>10606243
After the Renaissance :^)

>>10605441
this?
https://www.amazon.com/Cultic-Milieu-Oppositional-Subcultures-Globalization/dp/075910204X

looks interesting

>>10606599
your welcome, im glad someone found it useful

>>10606207
Are you able to say anything that does not consist almost entirely of buzzwords?

>>10587462
This reminds me of this
http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/18/book-review-mastering-the-core-teachings-of-the-buddha/

>>10587000
>Bro, I'm not talking about your dime-a-dozen reality, I'm talking about a reality so superior and [insert other cool arcane word] that it I doesn't have to have any relation to anything I say or do and can't be falsified in any way so I'm going to keep talking and doing rituals even though those things are purely tangential.
Please tell me more... not.

>>10610839
kek

Because he's a pseud. God is always becoming.

>>10610839
If we listened to the blind people we would be led to believe there is no such thing as sight

>>10611968
if only you realized how incoherent and indefensible a world view such a premise entails. ah, well i imagine you don't like to think too deeply about these things

>>10586997
>I wouldn't know, looking at India today is enough proof to me it in fact has changed, quite a lot.

stop pulling shit out your ass. metaphysical beliefs have remained the same in India since forever.

>>10612114
>i dont understand it so its le dumb
Get into process theology you backwards moron.
>muh lawwwwjikkkk
Nah sod off ya CUNT aye
Once again, this board proves unable to do anything but circlejerk over the same few figures while excluding all else.
>>10612119
No mate, anybody with a basic fucking idea of the various strands of Hinduism will tell you otherwise. Of course nobody knew shit about Hinduism until recently.

>>10612563
Why would anyone take you seriously when you behave so immaturely

>>10612619
Why would I care about being taken seriously?
Immaturity doesn't exist.
Fuck off, le classy fedoraman shit.

>>10612633
You're not funny either