/lit/ - Literature

>>10588320

>>10588320

>>10588346
>>10588351
>capitalist bullshit

>>10588320
The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manly P. Hall was incredbly edifying

>>10588362
How is taoism capitalist.. it is literally just "follow your subconscious and instinct" and "observe nature"

>>10588320
Hail Eris! The beginning of my journey.

>>10588384
>Pooh

>science is opposed to religion

That's atheist talk. Anyway, books that got me out of my euphoric phase... greeks and indians

the law of one gave me a mini mystical experience

>>10588346
MAGA Mindset

>>10588413
>books that got me out of my euphoric phase... greeks and indians
Such as...?

>>10588320
the Torah
then going to Israel and visiting Jerusalem, touching the Wailing Wall

>>10588320
Stryer Biochemistry and Lewis cell biology

Evolution across a billion years doesn't cut it for me.

>>10588320
>When did you realize that science can't solve all of our problems?

That's a pretty low bar for being "awakened"

>>10588413
What are you now?

>>10588446
Tell me more about how enlightened you are.

>>10588466
A pompous faggot.

>>10588320
Honestly it wasn't a book but the degeneration of society or what over time becomes socially acceptable. The cess-pools, and the decrepitude of the people that inhabit them, nevertheless the attitudes of the people who allow them to be created/who create them. Places that might literally be considered as "hell on Earth". I figure if we can manifest such torments as some people do or later people expose themselves to, thus proliferating such conditions; if we can veritably create hell on Earth, then maybe there's something to creating a veritable "Heaven" on Earth, or something close to it. That maybe what is said in these old books isn't actually all for nothing or mere superstition, that there might be some wisdom to it that our more modern strict rationality condemns because it isn't in terms that we can any longer relate to. That's what led me to the books, not that the books led me to God. God might as well be an ideal, a divine ordinance under which things can illumine sanctity. And such people who manifest the will of this ordinance are the personality types that achieve through good-will their admittance to enlightenment, to Heaven if you will: which is why Heaven is considered as a place that is "perfect," because it's only occupied by people who had a righteous moral constitution. And so if I want these things, what should I do? I certainly shouldn't follow secular "morality" because that is constantly metamorphosizing according to whatever ephemeral value of the moment. I need an objective moral compass, and the prerequisite axiom for that is God.

>>10588320
>BE ME
>Sophomore year of high school
>Teacher tells the class "Everyone who thinks science will solve most of our problems, stand to the left of me. Anyone who thinks otherwise, stand to the right of me"
>I go to the right of her without really thinking too much about it
>The rest of the class goes to the left of her

It was weird.

>>10588490
Didn't even read past the first sentence. Please go back to pol.

>>10588490
>Honestly it wasn't a book but the degeneration of society or what over time becomes socially acceptable. The cess-pools, and the decrepitude of the people that inhabit them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytdEYapPXdY#t=8s

The only book (besides the Bible) that influenced my spirituality was Dostoievski's Brothers Karamazov. Despite being Eastern Euro and baptized Orthodox, I had a relatively secular upbringing. Never read the Bible, never went to church besides Easter, family were not overly religious. I never really cared much for religion throughout my adolescence, I thought going to church was for old ladies. That book made me begin to reconsider spirituality.

Started with "Advanced Magick For Beginners" by Alan Chapman. Got into Wicca for a bit but eventually turned to Islam and am going to convert once I finish the Quran. Also read some shit on Hermeticism, Gnosticism, and Jung but not too much. It's really saved my life I'd say.

>>10588490
Ah, so you could have just said you're a Petersonite instead of getting us to read all that crap

>>10588514
lol

>>10588538
>t. Jordan Peterson

>>10588545
It baffles me how people can just choose to convert to a religion when they know that all religions are human inventions and none of them provide adequate windows into the capital-T Truth.

>>10588490

>>10588562
Do you really think devoted muslims and christians "know" this?

>>10588616
Yes, especially if they "converted" from atheism.

>>10588627
Come on man, I thought it was religous people who routinely demonstrate an absence of theory of mind with that "who are you to judge God" crap. You ought to realize that no religious person has functional knowledge that his religion is unsubstantiated.

>>10588559
What do you mean? I've never read anything by him.

I got this book after seeing it on infographics. 2bh the title just sounded cool to me. It blew me away. I realized that prior to reading it, I had no concept of the depth of theology. Fast forward to now and I'm a catechumen in the Orthodox Church.

>>10588648
He often shills Dostoevsky and the Bible.

>>10588652
Imagine being this easy to influence.

>>10588663
Feels good man.

>>10588652
How long from reading that did you become a catechumen?

>>10588684
I was made a catechumen about a year after reading it. I did a lot of studying and attended church sporadically over that period.

>>10588320
Anna Karenina and Crime and Punishment

One of a kind book.

>>10588490
The Kingdom of Heaven can never be realized on Earth due to Man's imperfection. It's doctrine is as alien to Man as Day is to Night. The utopia of Earth created by Man can only be brought forth by a dystopian mechanism.

>>10588675
So I heard there was this cool new little book called the Quran...

>>10588428
>Now I'm like, well, I wouldn't say I'm, like, SUPER religious, but I'm, like, kinda spiritual now. Like, open to divine, like, possibilities, ya know? r-read Plato and you'll kinda get it, ya know?
Why does half of /lit/ feel the need to do this shit? Being an atheist doesn't instantly mean you're a disciple of scientism.

>>10588502
Then what happened?

>>10588747
>>10588413

The Seven Storey Mountain
The Brothers Karamazov
The Sword of Honor trilogy
Brideshead Revisited

>>10588747
It's a need to feel pompous and superior to other people in order to compensate for their insecurities.

>>10588758
Sounds about right

>>10588732
>choosing Quran when Book of Mormon is the true sequel to Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVYD4I8dzRg

>>10588747
Reading Plato really is a shock to the system for a lot of young men encountering philosophy for the first time in university. I don't expect them to be able to put the experience into words. Your take, that they're all affecting a Plato-based spirituality because they don't want to be atheists, is bizarre. And even if that were the case, what's wrong with that? Almost the entire world rejects atheism.

>>10588770
As tempting as living in a white ethnostate, getting hooked up with a nice white virgin qt3.14, and job security may be, I don't think I can handle that much cognitive dissonance on a daily basis.

>>10588710
God bless you man, I've recently made a similar journey into the Catholic Church myself. Going to a Christian uni and making Christian friends went a long way.

>>10588790
>Your take, that they're all affecting a Plato-based spirituality because they don't want to be atheists, is bizarre
Its not at all, its exactly whats happened across this board over the past year. Most people here have been through their smug atheist phase and, in an attempt to distance themselves from it, they latch onto any kind of spiritual belief they find so that they can technically deny the label of 'atheist.' They do it with Christianity, Neoplatonism, The Upanishads etc. These belief systems do have some great value but the way many people approach them here is in a cynical, identity-crisis kind of way. Most of them are probably non-believers at heart, they just don't want to lumped into the same group as someone that's as embarrassing as Richard Dawkins.
>Almost the entire world rejects atheism
And? Is this appeal to popularity how you decide all your other beliefs?

Unironically this

>>10588419
is that the website?

>>10588813
>Richard Dawkins
I have a co-worker who thinks Richard Dawkins is "intelligent". He's an old guy so he's had plenty of years to encounter actually intelligent people and ideas. This sort of thing always makes me feel a little hopeless about the world.

>>10588835
Dawkins is pretty intelligent.

>>10588647

What do you mean unsubstantiated? There are esoteric and exoteric components to the Abrahamic religions and I think they're pretty comprehensive as a whole. What exactly are you talking about?

>>10588866
>Dawkins charges $1000 for meetings with laypeople
>The Pope does it for free

hmm...

>>10588813
Not anon but I've always been fairly ambivalent over my spirituality as it is so vague. I do not believe in God but, and this is more of a feeling than anything, do believe in the continuation of experience after death, whatever shape that takes. I do believe the self completely dies but intuitively I cannot believe all goes void. I dunno fully where my spirituality comes from - I had christian parents. Part of it stems from how ununique people are generally; existence is special but in a way casual and random, I'm not a buddhist (or a nihilist) but that's nagged at me for a while and I struggle to believe it all starts and ends with me.

>>10588502
>and then we had sex on her desk while the whole class cheered and then we all played Sonic and ate pizza

>>10588727
>The Kingdom of Heaven can never be realized on Earth due to Man's imperfection
Naturally, the two are not one in the same. But in as much as I can go to Grape St., Watts, CA, and see bars on the windows of every house, or go to wherever is the spot that crack addicts are wandering like zombies in the courtyards, and they're not being tormented by physical manifestations of demons, I still feel comfortable to say that this akin to the closest possible realization of hell on Earth (aside from literal war-torn dilapidations such as in many countries in the third world). And vice versa. If you walk through a goodly, well-kept, well-mannered, and pleasant, possibly Christian neighborhood, it would be a night and day difference between that and the run-down, delinquent ghettos of Jordan Downs. It's not a literal Heaven, but so far as everyone is getting along and the positive environment inspires positive feelings in you to more-or-less establish a positive feedback loop wherein we keep improving ourselves because we see the manifestation of good-will and amicability around us, that might as well be our realization (or closest possible thing) of heaven (non-capitalised, this is an important distinction) on Earth.

>>10588504
You go ahead and keep acting like opioid and fentanyl epidemics aren't a cause for concern, but I assure you that sweeping the issue under the rug and refusing to acknowledge it exists in ugly but necessary terms isn't conducive to its amelioration.

>>10588647

>religion is unsubstantiated

>>10588931
Substantiate religion.

>>10588351
Try zhuangzi instead of this reddit bullshit

>>10588723
I can't even google that shit, nigga. What's it about?

>>10588902
>I dunno fully where my spirituality comes from
There are studies which indicate that we are born with a spirituality/an inclination towards religious thought. In other words, it's something that most people have to be taught out of it, not taught into. I haven't read them myself, so I can't vouch for them, but it's an interesting thought. It seems likely on its face, given the preponderance of religious belief.

>>10588428
Aristotle and Prabhupāda. It seems my first post triggered some fedoras

>>10588902
I think any feelings surrounding the greater mystery of life should always remain vague, thats why I find scientism and theism equally frustrating. Your own ambivalence is definitely something I feel as well.

>“Truth need not always take corporeal form; enough for it to be around in spiritual form, bringing about harmony as it floats on the breeze as a spiritual presence like the solemn-friendly sound of bells.”

>"Nature does not know extinction; all it knows is transformation. Everything science has taught me, and continues to teach me, strengthens my belief in the continuity of our spiritual existence after death."

>"Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
>A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
>A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
>A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream."

>>10588954
Yeah I have heard of that study, I think it claimed it was there as an evolutionary means of survival

>>10588934

What exactly do you mean by substantiate?

Have you read Boethius? Augustine? Anselm? Aquinas? Imam Ghazali maybe? No? You're not an atheist, just an ignoramus.

>When did you realize that science can't solve all of our problems?
About 2 years before i realised that neither can religion.

Reading about the nature of conversion helped a fair bit.

>>10588968
The evolutionary explanation would just be speculation. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a genetic component to it, though (and not only spiritual).

>>10589008

>genetic determinism

>>10588999
>the nature of conversion
What books did you read on this?

>>10588968
the evolutionary explanation is something like humanity always wants to be in control, and not having control is frightening, not knowing what happens after death is frightening. I believe the first signs found of spirituality were holes drilled into stones in order to influence the hunt.
still doesn't stop me from being religious even knowing where it likely comes from though

>>10588952
>I can't even google that shit, nigga.
This was the second entry in the search results. You are extremely bad at googling.

https://www.amazon.com/Gleam-Classic-Reprint-Helen-Rickey/dp/1330365755

>>10588973
Why yes, I have. :^)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3yKxvW9yNA

>>10589035
HOLY...

>>10589035
why can't it be a banana?

Brothers Karamazov
Light Through an Eastern Window
Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives

>>10588878
I probably wasn't talking to you

>>10589035
AQUINAS BTFO!!!

>>10588931
I didn't say religion was unsubstantiated. I said that religious people have no functional knowledge suggesting anything of the like (and was infact arguing with an atheist). So I'll just assume that was a minimalistic self-portrait you just posted.

>>10589187
Hi five

>>10589035
this is so amateurish it hurts

>>10589035
>blueberrymuffins.mp3

Even if God looked like something silly he/it would
still be God

>>10588346
>le logical left brain, creative right brain meme
I can tell just from the cover that it's garbage.

>>10589015
things like
-Battle for the Mind: A Physiology of Conversion and Brain-washing and the early chapters of -Shaken Faith syndrome.
-he True Believer: Thoughts On The Nature Of Mass Movements

Then you look a things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

A lot of what people take for the divine can be produced through physiological means and even if its not conscious religious groups of all stripes use methods that relate to hypnosis and altered mindstates - whether through beautiful music or handling venomous snakes.

This has particularly interesting results when far from being rare/special 180 changes are a quite a common response when presented with new information.

>>10589321
>subtitles
I can already tell these are brainlet books.

Power vs Force by David Hawkins

>>10588351
Meme book and a half. Anon was fucking around with OP for sure.

>I’ve unironically read it though...

Only thing I picked up from it was taking cold showers.

>>10588351
>>10589569
Shit I meant Gorilla Mindset

>>10589361
Well if you want to reject a book based on nothing more than its title thats your choice and loss.

>>10588320
The four that really did it for me were Fear and Trembling, The Iliad, The Brothers Karamazov, and The Republic.

>>10588320
Dune. It's a story of triumph of mysticism.

>>10588490
Right on, my man. Time for a smoke for me

>>10589035
Damn...

>>10588490

>>10589832
>science fiction

>>10588890
dawkins doesn't have a hoard of nazi gold to fall back on

>>10590548
This

>>10588835
Dawkins is, in fact, a really intelligent guy. Not wise, but smart.

i thought i was christian but i cant stop thinking that religion might just be some very abstract mode of human reasoning

im not an expert comparative religious person but it seems like the timing makes too much sense in the shift from humans viewing gods as capricious forces capable of destroying humans for basically any reason (like nature) to coming into the christian understanding in rome (this massive civilization that to my understanding subjected the world to human social structures to an extent not seen before).

in other words, it just seems like humanity went from bargaining with the forces of nature to bargaining with society
from whence come the importance of morality and forgiveness

probably im just paraphrasing a paraphrase of some author i heard in a song in third grade but i'm quite stuck on this thought

thats also why i think catholics are smarter than protestants, they realize that while reason is incredibly important and our ends must be ordered according to it, a large part of christian progress must come simply from repeated the contemplation of the christian mysteries slowly restructuring you which i dont think the protestants get. i've seen some protestants explicitly say things like pic related which strikes me as completely insane when so many of the saints have recommended eucharistic adoration over and over.

>>10591624
How does the continuity between pre and post-Incarnation scriptures fit into your evo-psych explanation? From Genesis on, God is described as a personal being, not a natural force. It's His defining characteristic that separates Him from how pagan gods were understood. Even by the latest estimates, those scriptures predate Rome by hundreds of years.

>>10591661
god is a person, but the way humans seem to relate to him seems to change very much as time goes on in the bible (in my uninformed opinion). and at least in parts of the old testament he seems to be very wrathful, requires very strict obedience to different precepts or you just get murdered, etc (like the natural environment)

Man and his Symbols

>>10591672
This is a common misconception that's best solved by reading the Bible cover to cover. If you don't read it, all you're going to hear about are the flashy stories. People like talking about the times God killed people more than examples of His mercy. They also tend to leave out examples of God's wrath in the New Testament because they want to set up the Bad God of the OT / Good God of the NT false dichotomy.

You've probably not heard the story Ananias and Sapphira who were struck dead by God in the book of Acts (5:1-11), which takes place after the Christ has ascended. Neither are you likely to have heard 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9.

>7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

>>10588320
the Analects
Tao Te Ching
Zhuangzi

>>10588320
It wasn't so much the books, but C.S. Lewis certainly helped.
I entered University, took a math class.
>"The models are not [the whole of] reality, they represent reality."
Then this idea struck me. I was probably the slowest man on the planet to realize that. Then I found out about quantum mechanics, and the endless tirade of theories attempting to explain basic physical phenomena. Determinism was out.

>>10591802
>I was probably the slowest man on the planet to realize that.
Most people aren't woke on mathematical realism.

>>10592713
>not being a nominalist

>>10593023
id rather die than profess nominalism 2bh

>>10589321
>we observed the mechanics of a process therefore the mechanics explain the process in its entirety

>>10593229
>we don't know what the fuck is actually going on so we'll just make some shit up and sell it to people as the "Truth" (don't forget the capital T!)

>>10593236
>what is revelation

>>10593238
>what is obvious bullshit

>>10593243
That's just, like, your opinion man

>>10593236
>"Truth" (don't forget the capital T!)
Do you think there's any kind of capital T truth?

Phaedo
Secret Teachings of All Ages
The Girard Reader
Corpus Hermeticum
The Aesclipius

>>10588430
Oh man, I'm missing Jerusalem now.
I went to the Western Wall a few months ago with friends from abroad and we climbed over some locked gates and a blocked stairway and got to a high roof in front of the wall, overlooking it and the dome of the rock on behind it, and the rest of the old city around. The noon call of the Mu'addhin was heard all around as we got there and I just felt so grateful being alive and felt something great bringing me to my knees and started praying.

>>10595066
Hello