/lit/ - Literature

christians like to explain this shit by saying jesus had a "human" side and a "divine" side

nah that nigga was straight human

>>10580977
t. Ahmed

>>10580977
>Not believeing in Jesus’s divinity

>>10580967
>>10580977
It's a very beautiful passage, for it shows the voluntary aspect of his sacrefice

>My God, what have I done?
What did he mean by this?

>>10580967
Christian reinterpretation to fit psalm 22 I suppose

>>10581030
something like, how could i have been so blind!

>>10580967
The Bible is such a moving piece of literature. Christianity is the only religion with such kino.

>>10581030
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again after they money's gone.

>>10581030
That's the least retarded line in that song.

That he took all the sufferings of the world upon himself, and that the greatest suffering that the world suffers is the sense that it has been abandoned by God.

>>10581030
Talking Heads music videos were pure kino.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wg1DNHbNU

>>10581228
Catholics believe that sins separate men from God, thus we have to go to purgatory to purify. I imagine the sins of the world would separate man from God, taking them upon himself must have been real lonely. Like you said abandoned.

>>10581202
>Christianity is the only religion with such kino.
t. Brainlet

>>10581228
>>10581254
>God was separated from himself
Makes sense

>>10581279
other kino religions? Bueller?

>He's talking to himself
Is this really the best explanation Christian theologians can come up with?

>>10580967
the whole crucifixion thing is a put on for the crowd. there's no point to any of it without christ "suffering" and guilt-tripping the shit out of everyone. so yeah, of course he's gonna throw in some really bleak one liners to ramp up the drama. otherwise it's just a literal god on earth mocking the experience of pain and suffering.

>>10581279
> it doesn't make sense to me, the all-knowing one, so it's wrong and christcucks BTFO eternally

>>10581011
>Believing in a persons divinity with no evidence other than ”You just have to have faith and accept he could perform miracles”

>>10581279
>calls people brainlet while making passive aggressive remark about Christianity
lol are you Hindu or something?

>>10581292
Christ is the only son of God, as such he is an extension of God's divinity. Is that so hard?

>>10580967
he meant he wasn't divine and was a person

>>10581307
>Christ is the only son of G-d
>implying we're not all G-d's children

>>10580967
Jesus was probably a psychotic who believed himself a prophet; his revolution failed, so when it failed they tortured him. This gave Jesus the impression god had forsaken him instead of saving him from the cross.

the idea that Jesus was both man and god, is a later invention.

>>10581312
>the point
>your head

>>10581325
>evidence jesus wasn't divine/contradictory shit
>yfw

>>10581320
you might like this book

>>10581307
It makes sense within a Christian framework.
Is he talking to his divine nature (one of two within his "body" or "entity"), or is he composed of both natures perfectly thus literally talking to himself?

"Our father..." he says to himself, the father is not the son, but both are God.

>>10581332
>evidence
i can't teach you if you don't want to grow anon

>>10581279
>God was separated from himself

Let's get our orthodox Christology sorted:

Christ is:
True God,
True Man.
As God, He shares the divine substance which He took from his Father.
As Man, He shares our human substance which He took from his Mother (Mary).
There is no confusion of these substances, i.e. Christ is not one God-Man substance, a mixture of the divine and the human; no, He is both fully God and fully Man. These two substances are joined together in the hypostatic (personal) union, making Christ one Person in two Natures.

As Man, he has a human soul and a human body. Although His divine nature was always united to His human nature (body and soul); still, He allowed His human nature to undergo suffering in its senses so that, as far as the senses were concerned, He felt abandoned by God. This is also true in the lives of all suffering, i.e. the saints often underwent trials when, though in their inner spirit they were united to God, in their senses they felt completely abandoned by Him. These interior trials are part of the work of our redemption.

I find it difficult to see the new testament as anything other than some regional tale prepped up with some supernatural elements desu.

>>10581343
Let's be real, that's a later compromise between two warring factions within christology.

>>10581341
ok i see the contradiction, but i don't think it's intended for the reader to see God talking to himself. imo passages where Jesus is talking to God show his submission to the divine. He knows the material world is not the only world to exist. He is stuck in a mortal body, can he not speak from the mortal body's perspective?

>>10580967
He was quoting Psalm 22

>>10581353
that's absolutely what it is famalam

>>10581320
That might be true except:

1. He performed miracles, and so have His followers even to the present day - proving His divinity.

2. He fulfilled the biblical prophecies, the prophecies made by Moses and the prophets; He even fulfilled the prophecies of the pagans, e.g.

Plato:

>And at his side let us place the just man in his nobleness and simplicity, wishing, as Aeschylus says, to be and not to seem good. There must be no seeming, for if he seem to be just he will be honoured and rewarded, and then we shall not know whether he is just for the sake of justice or for the sake of honours and rewards; therefore, let him be clothed in justice only, and have no other covering; and he must be imagined in a state of life the opposite of the former. Let him be the best of men, and let him be thought the worst; then he will have been put to the proof; and we shall see whether he will be affected by the fear of infamy and its consequences. And let him continue thus to the hour of death; being just and seeming to be unjust.

Laozi:

>Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world.
>Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the steward of the world.

3. "And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us."

If Christians were just fanatics or sectarians moved solely by lust for power (though many with such motives have called themselves Christians, we speak here primarily of the saints who are its best representatives), then we might suspect that Christ Himself was just a fanatic or sectarian. But Christians have given their lives for others, not just for their friends, but even for their enemies. The first martyr, St. Stephen, died just as Jesus did - praying for His murderers. The love that Christianity brought into the world is truly divine. The love that made slaves and young women stand up to emperors and be martyred, while praying for those that killed them.

>>10581377
See Virgil's prophecy also:

>Now the last age by Cumae's Sibyl sung
>Has come and gone, and the majestic roll
>Of circling centuries begins anew:
>Justice returns, returns old Saturn's reign,
>With a new breed of men sent down from heaven.
>Only do thou, at the boy's birth in whom
>The iron shall cease, the golden race arise,
>Befriend him, chaste Lucina; 'tis thine own
>Apollo reigns. And in thy consulate,
>This glorious age, O Pollio, shall begin,
>And the months enter on their mighty march.

>>10581377
this anon is the last hope for this thread

>>10581393
That one was about forty years before Christ's birth, ". . . the boy's birth in whom / The iron shall cease, the golden race arise . . ."

>>10580967
I remember this quote in Aramaic

‘Eloi Eloi Sabachtani’

so i'm about to probably say something heretical accidentally, but i heard a priest say that

Jesus (the human incarnation) had access to the beatific vision his entire life, but that God "hid" it from himself then

is this what God was up to?

>>10581455
yes but with all creation, not just jesus

>>10581343
I appreciate you typing this out but it honestly sounds like such a pile of hocus pocus. Where is the Biblical justification for any of this? You just seem to riffing on what you've half read in Aquinas.
>>10581307
Stop pretending the trinity is in any way a simple concept. Christians have tripping themselves up for centuries trying to shoehorn it into a logical framework. Even Augustine eventually shrugged and just said "dude its beyond language."
>>10581303
Christians operate exactly the same way on this board.
>>10581377
>1.
The miracles really aren't very convincing desu. Bear in mind that the gospels state that not only was Jesus resurrected from the dead but all the tombs of Jerusalem opened up and the holy dead rose again en masse. Do Christians seriously believe this happened? Where are the historical accounts by others of mass resurrection in a major city?
>2. This is like saying "a fortune-teller said I would find love and ten years later I was married - they were right!" Its not much of a prediction, and one the prophets predicted that the saviour would be a father which Jesus was not. Also, bear in mind that the historical Jesus knew the scriptures very well and so would have been actively aware of when he was fulfilling the prophecies. This could have made him a very convincing liar to many Jews.
>Plato
Plato's "prophecy" is so vague that it describes about a million different anonymous men that came before Jesus. "Be good whilst others think you are not good." That was Socrates himself.
>Laozi
Laozi's could just as easily be a reference to a brave warrior who dies on the battlefield for a noble cause, nothing explicitly similar to Jesus.
>>10581393
Can you seriously say with a straight face that this is a prediction of Jesus? Virgil also makes a million """predictions""" in his poetry and garbles the history of Rome whilst he's at it. How can you justify cherrypicking this phrase and calling it prophetic?
>>10581396
He's made no sound points, I'm afraid.

>>10581691
Fucked up the green text, sorry

>>10580967
>>10580977

>Motherfuck this hurts like a goddamn bitch like wtf why am I doing this bullshit? They're all going disgusting sinners for the next 200 centuries anyways

Which is what you or I or any pure man would say and think as he slowly asphyxiated because our limbs gave out from our own bodyweight whilst being pinned to a pine. Instead Jesus, with his divine relationship to the Father a humble question because his mortal flesh felt alone and unloved by all of existence in that moment.

>>10581440
Eloi, Eloi lama sabachtani*

>>10581279
>Makes sense
Not any less so than the trinity

I don't think you trusted in his self righteous suicide

>>10581836
but do you cry when angels deserve to die?

>>10581836
>>10581842
Based.

>>10580967
He meant he wanted Eli to get him lamb and some bok choi, but it was windy and he got misinterpretted and died of starvation.

>>10581343
Jesus is fully God, yet he was separated from God. Denying that he's fully God is to deny the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, which makes one a heretic.

So: how can God become separated from Himself?

>>10580977
>Side

He was both fully god and fully man mate

>>10581836
>>10581842
I too liked Marilyn Manson

>>10581292
>>10581293
>>10581320

No. He's quoting psalm 21 (22), and I strongly advise people to read it, because it's heart breaking and heart warming at the same time. It contains all of Jesus' purpose, and you can actually feel and understand what he was feeling on the cross. The twist at the end is amazing.

>>10581301
>believing that's all christians believe

He's giving a fucking quote as his last words what a madman.

>over 50 replies
>no mention of Zizek's analysis over this particular passage
What is wrong with /lit/?

>>10581030
Realizing he wasted his life either because he didn't get the one he expected to live, or he did yet doesn't enjoy it at all

>>10581960
T H I S
H
I
S

>>10581985
Be the change you want to see in the world, anon.

>>10581377
>1. He performed miracles, and so have His followers even to the present day - proving His divinity.
Faith is a hell of a drug

>>10581985
I'm just larping

>>10581995
>But I think one can read the Christian gesture in a much more radical way. This is what the sequence of crucifixion in Scorsese’s film shows us. What dies on the cross is precisely this guarantee of the Big Other. The message of Christianity is here radically atheist. The death of Christ, is not any kind of redemption of commercial affair in the sense of Christ suffers to pay for our sins. Pay to whom? For what? And so on. It’s simply the disintegration of the God, which guarantees the meaning of our lives. And that’s the meaning of that famous phrase: ‘Eli ele lama sabachthani’ Father, why have you forsaken me?
>Why have you forsaken me?
>Just before Christ’s death, we get what in psychoanalytic terms we call ‘subjective destitution’ – stepping out totally of the domain of symbolic identification, cancelling or suspending the entire field of symbolic authority, the entire field of the Big Other. Of course, we cannot know what God wants from us because there is no God. This is the Jesus Christ who says, among other things, ‘I bring sword, not peace. If you don’t hate your father, your mother, you are not my follower.’ Of course, this does not mean that you should actively hate or kill your parents. I think that family relations stand here for hierarchic social relations.
>The message of Christ is ‘I’m dying but my death itself is good news. It means you are alone, left to your freedom, be in the Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, which is just the community of believers.’ It’s wrong to think that the second coming will be that Christ as a figure will return somehow. Christ is already here when believers form an emancipatory collective. This is why, I claim, that the only way really to be an atheist is to go through Christianity. Christianity is much more atheist than the usual atheism which can claim there is no God and so on. But nonetheless it retains a certain trust into the Big Other – this Big Other can be called natural necessity, evolution or whatever. We humans are none the less reduced to a position within a harmonious whole of evolution, whatever. But the difficult thing to accept is again that there is no Big Other – no point of reference which guarantees meaning.

>>10582033
>Being this autistic
Then why does Jesus say: "So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
Who is our Father in heaven?
I respect Zizek, but damn, did he even read the Gospel, or enter a church during mass?

>>10582046
>I respect Zizek
kys

>>10582046
Or maybe he didn't read the bible like retards read genre fiction?

>>10582033
And so on and so fort
>>10582046
>Respecting Zizek

He was a human messiah claimant who was genuinely shocked at being killed.

>>10582056
>>10582061
>not respecting Zizek

>>10582071
this

>>10582057
You can't read a text without the context.

>>10582238
That is not at all what I was saying

>>10582095
Not for a lack of trying. I found him amusing before I actually read his cancer.

>>10581353
you are small

>>10582033
Good lord Zizek is so full of shit, why does anyone listen to this blatant retard?

>>10582033
An interesting take. My only concern is that it seems a modern revision view of Christian doctrine and not an explanation of the doctrine in and of itself. Of course zizek would say that this is my ideology clouding my objectivity but it's possible the same force is at play on him too with this deconstructed analysis

>>10582098
almost

he was God pretending to be a human messiah claimant who was genuinely shocked at being killed.

>>10581353
>literally directed at audiences foreign to the region

>>10582400
Because his admirers are even dumber, see >>10582407

>>10580967
If he said this, the trinity dogma of the concil of Nicäa is wrong (even if you just consider the bible itself), because why should god himself ask himself why he let himself alone?

It indicates to the fact, that, if he really shouted this out, which is not difficult to believe, he never thought of himself as god, maybe not even as god's son. For some, this might be obvious, but it is definitely worth discussing. Did Jesus think of himself as the son of god or just a revolutionary prophet? Did he want to be the heir of David and revolte against the roman occupation of Israel or did he fail in this because he claimed to be more than that (which would als explain the jewish-christian schisma)?

>>10581377
Lmao what

>>10582407
i'm 99% sure this is from puppet and the dwarf which is like... alright... but his overarching claim there isnt about what christian doctrine is or isn't but rather the semi-perverse underpinings once u strip away the "ideology" that surrounds the gospel

Apparently Muslims believe that it was actually Judas on the cross, made up to look like Jesus, while Jesus hid out in a cave. I kinda like that one

>>10581393
>Virgil prophecy
I love this brainlet Christian meme. It's very similar to when feminists try to read patriarchy in Shakespeare's works.

For any one who doesn't know: this is a meme from (iirc) the middle ages. The classics were being rediscovered and to justify the reading of pagan works christians went full pomo and started shoehorning christian themes and interpretations into said books.

>>10582705
The rediscovery of Virgil and Christian interpretation of his works may be medieval, but this line of thought goes back to the early Church with writers like St. Justin Martyr, who speaks of the pagans as having "seeds of the Logos" sown among them; in other words, preparations for Christ.

Why exactly did Jesus have to die for our sins? I just don't see the connection. He died, and as long as we believe he died for us, we get rewarded. Why is belief required? Why die at all? Being a skeptic, I'm distressed for knowing I could go to Hell because I can't understand the Christian God, which makes it harder for me to want to believe. I still don't see why we would punished for not having faith, when almost every religion requires faith. If I knew for a fact Jesus not only died but rose 3 days later then I shouldn't complain if I disobeyed God and went to Hell. Adam and Eve sinned, but that was worse than our sin because they didn't need faith-- God actually spoke to them.
Like Aurelius, I think it's reasonable to live a just life and worry not about religion, because a just god would reward us. Otherwise, we shouldn't worship him. Because how can we claim that God must be good? He could just as easily be evil. How frightening to think that I could be predestined to suffer in Hell for eternity, never escaping God's wrath...

>>10582672
Don't bother we're just idiotic sycophants for even bothering to examine zizek.

>>10581879
He wasn't really separated, more like he played by the human rules. You don't (usually) break the board while playing chess (sorry for the food analogy)

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish? My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, but I find no rest.

Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the one Israel praises. In you our ancestors put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. To you they cried out and were saved; in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads. “He trusts in the Lord,” they say, “let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”

Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast. From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.

Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. Roaring lions that tear their prey open their mouths wide against me. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me. My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.

Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.

But you, Lord, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs. Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

I will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you. You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel! For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.

The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the Lord will praise him—may your hearts live forever!

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, for dominion belongs to the Lord and he rules over the nations.

All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—those who cannot keep themselves alive.

Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.

They will proclaim his righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it!

>>10582737
>Why exactly did Jesus have to die for our sins? I just don't see the connection.

The Church's theologians have speculated that God could have forgiven man's sins in another way. In fact, if He wanted, He could have just forgiven man's sins outright without any such sacrifice being offered. Since the sacrifice of the cross was not an absolute requirement for our redemption, we have to look instead for reasons of fittingness to understand why God chose this as the means for our redemption.
One of the main themes of the Bible is that sin brought death into the world, and that sin leads to death (physical and spiritual). Though God, in terms of strict justice, has the right to punish men with death every time they commit a grave sin, out of His mercy and condescension to human weakness and frailty, He chooses to put up with them patiently until such time as they repent of their sin and receive His forgiveness. In the mean time, seeing as God has been offended by their sin, and since justice therefore demands a certain act of retribution, God allowed animals to be sacrificed and undergo death in men's place, so that men would not have to die (at least immediately) for their sins. But the New Testament proclaims that the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament are just a prefigurement of the ultimate and truly redeeming sacrifice of Christ - the Lamb of God - upon the cross.
To understand how Christ's sacrifice redeems us, think of it like this. You commit a grave crime offending a certain man, for which you are justly condemned to punishment. However, the man's son intervenes and begs for forgiveness and mercy on your behalf, and even undergoes the punishment himself just to make it that much more difficult for the man to refuse you the mercy that his son begs of him on your behalf. Similarly, whenever a sinner goes to God through Christ His only-Begotten Son, there are two things which make it easy for God to forgive the sinner's offences: the fact that Christ, who is His Son and who is Himself divine, is pleading on the sinner's behalf; the fact that Christ Himself is divine, and therefore His blood and sacrifice is infinitely precious and has infinite merits, and therefore is more good than all the sins of the world are evil.

> Why is belief required?

Christ's sacrifice has the potential to redeem all men, but for it redeem any particular man, that man has to voluntarily wash himself in the blood of Christ.
"I beheld a great multitude, whom no man could number, who had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

>I'm distressed for knowing I could go to Hell because I can't understand the Christian God, which makes it harder for me to want to believe.

You won't be punished for that. God doesn't punish anyone for something they can't do. The less capability you have, the less culpability for your crime or neglect. Besides, it's not a matter of understanding, but of faith. Nobody fully understand God because He is beyond our comprehension. Faith is a gift that God gives to all that come to Him in earnest, It might seem strange to say that: because how can you come to God, if you do not already have faith to begin with? You can't exactly, but you can prepare a place for God to enter your heart by sincerely searching for the truth and avoiding what your conscience tells you is evil.

>I still don't see why we would punished for not having faith, when almost every religion requires faith.

You won't be punished for not having faith if you never had the opportunity to acquire it. You will only be punished if you did have the opportunity but neglected to use it because of your preoccupation with material things or whatever.

>Like Aurelius, I think it's reasonable to live a just life and worry not about religion, because a just god would reward us. Otherwise, we shouldn't worship him.

But our conscience tells us that if God does exist, then we rightly owe Him worship. So religion is a moral obligation, and we can't expect a reward if we forego such obligations. Besides, in order to be truly good we need to pray to God for the grace to do good and avoid evil, because our fallen nature often prevents us from truly seeking the good.

Another reason for the fittingness of Christ's cross as the means for our redemption: is that it inspired the saints to perform similar acts of self-sacrificial love. True, God could have just forgiven us immediately, but then the saints would never have reached the heights of sanctity they did through the self-sacrificial love they practiced in imitation of Christ.

>>10580967
I was there on that day, ask me anything.

"In every saint there lurks an arrant knave, the marrow of all holyness being absolute hellishness. That is why our Saviours are of no avail, their remedies being too strong for common man, who is the puppet of his fleshly appetite and not a sinner."

-Albert Caraco

>>10582839
>But our conscience tells us that if God does exist, then we rightly owe Him worship.

What do you mean by conscience, what specifically are you referring to? Whose conscience? Certainly not mine.

>>10582855
Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and fame.

>>10582909
Wrong. Also nice.

>>10581691
Is there any kind of Christian argument against these points?

>>10580967
Basically that there was only one enemy left, two if you counted God seperately.

>>10581066
>use psalms as prophecies
>meanwhile actual prophecy (Tyre) absolutely BTFO

>>10581202
>kino
>not libo

>>10581293
This. One has to wonder what kind of sacrifice involves restoring the sacrifice and giving it super powers. The difference is if II sacrifice my son, he aint coming back, I would also consider that an egregious violation of the practical imperative if I did it

>>10580967
Pain and shock from being crucified, his mind kept reverting back to the same fairy tale, that got him strung up.

>>10582033
gay

>>10583157
It is supposed to be congruous with God asking Abraham for his son and Abraham being on the brink of obliging and then God calling it off. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son but God intervened there as well. The symbol of will to do it was more important than the death in and of itself.

>>10582687
The Quran doesn't specify that it is Judas - it only says that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, but it was made to appear so. Whether that means another person was on the cross, or there was some other source of confusion, isn't clear. What is interesting, though, is the Quranic account of a conversation between Jesus and God on the Day of Judgement. God will ask His prophet whether he told the people to worship him and his mother as equal to the One who sent him, and Jesus will deny it. The confusion among Christians that you see in this thread is proof of the problem in their theology - they revile the God of the OT as evil and oppressive, and worship a god of their own making, a god who prays to himself, who was born of a woman, and who was hanged from a piece of wood cause he refuses to forgive anyone except by the shedding of blood. Christianity is barely Abrahamic, and has some clear influences from paganism that Moses and Jesus themselves would punish by stoning.

>>10581030
something about his beautiful wife

>>10583196
the problem with that is Abraham is not omniscient

>>10583246
Why is this a problem? Jesus wasn't omniscient either.

>>10583101
>libo
>not biblo

>>10583260
>can't even understand his own analogy

>>10583066
underrated

>>10581320
Scorcese pls

>>10583212
Or maybe Christianity is true, and its strangeness is a proof of its divine origins.

>>10581332
how can you prove I'm not a giant spider? Do you really think that's on you?

>>10583340
probably not

>>10583356
Not even going to consider the possibility? If you take Christianity at face value it really is pretty distinct from all other modern religions. None of the others claim their founder is simultaneously their principal deity.

>>10583340
God is not the author of confusion. The Christian creed is poisoned by Roman paganism, and deviated from the clean understanding of God in Judaism. The Islamic Tawheed is the continuation of that understanding, while the Trinity is a falsehood that broke from that tradition. God will not fault a man for disbelieving in something that insults Him, as the Trinity does. He WILL fault a man for holding such wicked beliefs, instead of monotheism.

>>10583395
Yes, I can imagine what the political advantage of such a doctrine might be. It kind of speaks for itself. Surely it would be necessary if you were the Jews who sought to undermine the greatest empire the world had yet seen and put its people in subjugation to your deity.

>>10583422
>not the author of confusion
>delegates the matter of sending people "strong delusions" to grunt angels

Its rather academic in practice

>>10583422
There's a difference between confusion and mystery. Be wary of any religion that offers complete comprehension of God. "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' says the LORD."

>>10583456
I didn't claim I, or anyone, completely understand God. Don't put words in my mouth, and actually read what I said. We only understand Him as He reveals Himself to us. That doesn't justify the polytheism in Christianity.

>>10583475
And he revealed himself to us through Jesus Christ, his Son, who is also himself. The Quran was written after the Bible; one could make the argument that Islam is the religion that deviates, not Christianity.

>>10582389
and why is that

>>10581377
How the hell can you build these very astract musings on virtue into prophecies? If anything it seems to suggest more that virtue as understood by the wise transcends category.

>>10583422
So why aren't you a Muslim then?

>>10582771
>catholicism is based on food analogy (transubstantiation)

>>10582839
what opporunity did a 1600s dindu have to acquire faith in a religion he was doomed to never hear a word of?

>>10583480
The Quran follows the same Abrahamic understanding of God - His Oneness, His divine attributes, ++. The Christian theology breaks from the tradition of Abraham and his children. It introduces pagan elements.
>>10583495
I am, and I encourage you to take a critical look at these religions and what they say of God.

>>10583551
>>10583495
>>10583422

all the same guy

>>10583450
lol this. I don't care who the ghostwriter of confusion is. I just want to know who i ultimatelyresponsible and it must needs be none other than God

>>10583563
And a shill as well, right?

>>10582861
>Albert Caraco was a French-Uruguayan philosopher, writer, essayist and poet of Turkish JEWISH descent

>>10583578
sure, I don't see why not

>>10583582
He was an atheist nihilist who killed himself, the furthest thing possible from being a follower of the Talmud. Anyway his point that Christians tend to overstate the case of 'sinners' and saints is a valid one.

>>10583592
Jews don't always deliberately blaspheme, its just ther nature. Its their unfortunate part to play in this cosmic drama. Its all detailed in Parsifal.

>>10583613
Good, we need more Jews like Caraco and Lispector and Kafka and Schulz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6DajaVz1YE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwu9pRX-tbI

From https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-have-you-forsaken-me :
>At his lowest ebb, his mind instinctively breathes the Psalter, and from it he borrows the words that express the anguish, not now of his body, but of his soul. He bore in his soul, wrote Calvin, “the terrible torments of a condemned and lost man” (Institutes, II:XVI, 10).
>And now, when he had cried, God had closed his ears. The crowd had not stopped jeering, the demons had not stopped taunting, the pain had not abated. Instead, every circumstance bespoke the anger of God; and there was no countering voice. This time, no word came from heaven to remind him that he was God’s Son, and greatly loved. No dove came down to assure him of the Spirit’s presence and ministry. No angel came to strengthen him. No redeemed sinner bowed to thank him.
>He cries out in Aramaic, but he doesn’t use the greatest of all the Aramaic words, Abba. Even in the anguish of Gethsemane, distraught and overborne though he was, he had been able to use it (Mark 14:36). But not here. Like Abraham and Isaac going up to Mount Moriah, he and the Father had gone up to Calvary together. But now Abba is not there. Only El is there: God All-mighty, God All-holy. And he is before El, not now as his Beloved Son, but as the Sin of the World. That is his identity: the character in which he stands before Absolute Integrity.
>It is not that he bears some vague relation to sinners. He is one of them, numbered with transgressors. Indeed, he is all of them. He is sin (2 Corinthians 5:21), condemned to bear its curse; and he has no cover. None can serve as his advocate. Nothing can be offered as his expiation. He must bear all, and El will not, cannot, spare him till the ransom is paid in full. Will that point ever be reached? What if his mission fails?

>Now, Jesus’s mind is near the limits of its endurance. We, sitting in the gallery of history, are sure of the outcome. He, suffering in human nature the fury of hell, is not. He is standing where none has stood before or since, enduring at one tiny point in space and in one tiny moment of time, all that sin deserved: the curse in unmitigated concentration.
>But then, suddenly, it is over. The sacrifice is complete, the curtain torn, and the way into the Holiest opened once and for all; and now Jesus’s joy finds expression in the words of another psalm, Psalm 31:5. In the original, it had not contained the word Abba, but Jesus inserts it: “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46).
>We have no means of knowing what intervened between the two cries. We know only that the Cup is drained and the curse exhausted, and that the Father now proudly holds out his hands to the spirit of his Beloved Son.

>>10582737
The central problem of the gospel is that God is infinitely good and we are not. How can a just judge pardon the wicked and still call himself just or righteous? The bible tells us over and over again that there is none that is righteous, that we have all committed sins, that none of us can hope to live a sinless life. So what does God do with us? How can he not just pardon us but invite us into his home and have fellowship with him? And the answer is found on the cross. Jesus paid for our sin, he took the cup and drank it in full so that we may have salvation. On that cross at calvary he didn't "just die", he wasn't just punished by humans. He was punished by God himself for all of humanity's wickedness, for all sins committed now and to be committed in the future. Read Isaiah 53:
>Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
>But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
>All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

>Like Aurelius, I think it's reasonable to live a just life and worry not about religion, because a just god would reward us.
You won't live a good life, neither did Aurelius. Aurelius waged wars that killed thousands of people and you might say that they were largely defensive in nature or justified in some sense but still: thousands died because of him. If we could look at his life under a microscope, how much more would we see? We know that the number of persecutions against Christians increased under him, so in the best case scenario he turned a blind eye towards crimes committed by his governors. And that is considering that we have very little sources about his reign. Do you honestly believe that man can stand before the Almighty and do anything but cover in fear over all the evil he has done? "None is righteous, no, not one". If you think that you are just a good person in general and that ought to be enough, there is no hope for you. You sin every single day, you have to recognize that you cannot work your way to salvation.

>>10583847
>The bible tells us over and over again that there is none that is righteous, that we have all committed sins, that none of us can hope to live a sinless life.

So because it tells us that we have to believe it? The notion of original sin, or even sin in general is ridiculous.

>>10583869
The notion that humans fuck up is ridiculous?

>>10583881
Humans fuck up but it's not 'sin'. We have all lived sinless lives.

>>10580967
It's a reference to psalm 22, you goddamn brainlets

>>10583890
Sounds like you got the sin of hubris.

>>10583911
Nice

>>10583340
Honestly not. All signs point to simplicity for God's existence. All religions are more similar than you think. For instance, all three Abrahamic religions believe in Immaculate Conception and Jesus Christ, but only one, Christianity, posits that somehow Jesus is the lord.

Maybe prophets are things that happen every now and then. Like for instance, Moses, then Jesus, then Mohammed, then the prophet of today.

You have a clear line of succession down the way of individuals who have abilities/messages from their divine creator. This is proof God is a real and active member of society and his world.

>>10583898
I feel like psalm 23 would have been more appropriate. I don't mean to edit the Lord's book, but it would've made a nice touch imo

>>10583869
>>10583890
The only reason you have not committed more sin is because of a lack of opportunity.

>>10583960
fuck, arguing with you fuckers is like arguing with some euphoric holier-than-tou faggot

>>10583911
His point is why should we believe in Christianity rather than any other religion. I know there's a divide between you and him but talking to non-Christians is not the same as talking to Christians. We don't reject it because we're evil, we reject it because it doesn't make sense (to us). You do know that there have been happy Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Stoics, pagans, Jews, gnostics, deists, etc., right? And that other religions have miracles and prophecies that go along with them as well? Some ways of life do not require faith at all, or even reason, but they can lead to truth and spiritual growth all the same. So what makes Christianity so special? Where is my fault in disbelief?

>>10583988
No matter your religion or lack thereof to argue that mankind is sinless is pure sophistry because the only way to be without sin is to be without a code of ethics that you can violate.

>>10583934
>member

how can you fuck up your vocabulary usage this bad?

>>10583654
wasn't Kafka sympathetic towardsChristian ideals?

>>10583729
>John Piper

>>10584020
For instance, God will change vague precepts or doctrines whenever he sees society has significantly altered. Or God will also choose to directly interfere, like you could imagine he is doing to the Godless gays over in California right now. If you think of God this way, he is an active member!! :)

>>10583847
>the judge sends his son who did nothing wrong to prison instead of say, an axe murderer

Wow you've really pulverized my peanuts with this analogy

>>10584004
You can violate a code of ethics but it's not the Christian definition of 'sin'. Anyway reading history and anthropology has just further convinced me in anti moral-realism

>>10584040
the term "member" implies subordination to a some body, in this case society

>>10584066
I guess you're right. He isn't subordinate to society, but he will allow a little change.

Just not change in the direction of Satan. After all there is good progress, then there is going the way of Sodom and Gomorrah.

While we're on the topic of contradictions and things that don't make sense in Christianity, then the matter of Heaven and Hell is one that most modern Christians just completely hand-wave away or just seem completely inadequate to explain properly. This seems absurd because really it's the most important part of the religion and the reason why so many people believe in it in the first place.

>>10581724
you really think people weren't asking the same question on those crosses before him? what's so special about him? if we don't grant the miracles seriously what's special?

>>10584004
>this is you mind on christianity
different cultures have different code of ethics, they condemn you for certain things and you condemn them for others(like eating pig or something), this is not a matter objetive truth, so you can make your general condemnation without worry.

>>10584003
Because they all rely on you working your way to be "generally a good person". Either by following some rituals or just follow some code of ethics. Christianity says that you will always fail to live up to the Law, you cannot save yourself, only God can save you. It's not that you have followed some rules and now God basically owes you to send you to heaven, it's God's grace that saves you. It's a gift. Our hope is based on the righteousness of another, the righteousness of Jesus Christ and not our own.
Where is your fault in disbelief? You essentially turn down the free gift of salvation, you look at God made flesh that died for you and say "No".

>>10584084
No anon, they were swearing their lungs out and cusing the heavens

see

>>10581724

>>10581293

Fuck you cunt.
Mother behold your son.
Son behold your mother.
Realest shit spoke I ever heard.

>>10584084
>yfw you find out what the holy anointing oil was made of

>>10584092
>this double-think
>because all the religions say this one similar thing Christianity is clearly true

>>10584085
Right but to eat pork is a sin to Muslims so they aren't sinless they clearly have moral laws to follow.

>>10584104
>I will follow all these rules and can go to heaven because I am a good person
>I will never be a good enough person and I am only saved by the mercy of God
>Similar in any way shape or form
They are literally the exact opposite. You are saved because of a free gift and not by taking part in some rituals or following some laws. You can separate all religions into two categories:
>Saved by works
>Saved by grace
Only one religion falls into the last category. Only one.

>>10584105
yeah but driving a bus into a room full of infidels is moral and eating bacon is not

>>10584105
and it sound retarded, there's churchs that say you are already are a sinner the moment you are born because your parents made you through sex, I mean what kind of dogmatic cynic crap is that to tell kids and already kind people.

>>10584128
They would both be immoral under the Quran, stop.

Don't worry about the Hadiths. Trust me, when someone says they are a muslim on /lit/ or /his/ they are most likely white, justify it using Aristotle's prime mover argument, and are inherently Quranists. This is an actual thing going on.

Fuck the misinterpretations.

>>10584092
>you look at God made flesh that died for you and say "No"

There's nothing to look at. If you weren't born into a country that has an extensive history with Christianity (so China or Japan who kicked out all their missionaries dont count) then you really underestimate how difficult it is to believe in a religion that has nothing to do with you or your community, seems incredibly flawed with many contradictions and faults in its central text and it's history and doesn't even make sense on an intuitive level. Most people from outside the West converted because of force, because they were stupid tribes who didn't know any better and were impressed by their technology and superiority, or because they wanted an in with their new colonialists/oppressors. Either that or they accept Christianity but they turn it into their own new syncretic religion that has nothing to do with historical Christianity like lots of Africans do

>>10584130
>Kids and kind people
They did some fucked up shit. Innocence doesn't exist.

>>10584048
Yes. Because Jesus is love. Think of how much He has to love you to die for you, you wretched axe murderer. You don't deserve to be saved but he even if you could never possibly thank him adequately, He still brings the ultimate sacrifice for you.

>>10584124
>its a Christians pretend to know about other religions episode

And personally speaking I will never believe Christians are committed to their religious beliefs for any other reason than fire insurance and immortality. It would be unreasonable to extend them such a courtesy.

>>10584146
*tips cross*
*unsheats bible*

>>10584146
>I can never repay my debt to Christ
It hurts

>>10584146
Its just that it doesn't make sense. It has no logical bearing on the framework of justice. Ironically enough it flies in the face of the soundest ethical theory we have, Kant''s categorical imperative since the Judge's son is treated as a means to an end (an end that is just uncanny to begin with)

>>10584150
How would it be unreasonable?

>>10584145
kek
>yfw when all amerindian people are burning in hell for not be born in the right piece of land

>>10584175
Because even though I wont accuse them of dissimulation, I have 0 confidence in their own ability to know that they observe their religion for any reasons other than their own belief that they are going to be in eternal bliss and the alternative will be burning in agony forever. One you put that carrot and that stick on the table everything else kind of takes a back seat.

>>10584178
Salvation Lotto was what defeated any possibility of me committing to Christianity.

>>10584130
More to the point is how does that jive with natalism? Christians and Muslims are basically wilfully shitting out kids into a garbage fire on the off chance they might grab onto an overhanging piece of rope.

>>10584136
I guess the answer to that question depends on the specific church. Some would say that this is exactly why Missions to other nations are so important, the Calvinist doctrine would tell you that God chooses his elect and I think Catholics have something they call "baptism of desire", essentially a way to be baptized (meaning to become a part of the Christian faith) for people that didn't have the opportunity to do so during their life. I think I also heard somebody say to me once that in the final moments of our life we would be given a last chance by the archangel Michael to repent but I don't think that is official doctrine of any church, maybe it's part of some kind of mysticism.

>>10584165
The question is, how can a judge pardon a wicked criminal and still be called just? No person could seriously claim to be sinless, at best you are fortunate to be born in the modern day western world where things tend to be rather peaceful and you most likely are also not starving, and this is the main reason you are not a worse person. If you had been a citizen in 1940s Germany, you most likely would have been a supporter of the Nazi party and either been involved with millions being sent to concentration camps or you would have ignored it. Same thing applies to things like slavery, the main reason you don't own slave is not because you are an especially good person but because you live in the 21st century.
James 2:10 says "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it". You might say that not all points of the law are equally bad, but the reason you have not violated the others is because you either didn't have the opportunity or not the proper motive. On top of that, we generally regard crimes as worse if they are committed for example against little children. How much worse then is a crime committed against God?
Now explain to me, how can a perfectly righteous and just God call the vilest of creatures on earth to have fellowship with him? All of creation calls for your condemnation but Jesus paid the price in full. He took your punishment and suffered for you on the cross.

Also, I doubt that your human notions of things like "justice" or "fairness" are in any way relevant to the almighty creator. You're like an ant, thinking that it's unfair you just got crushed for taking a sugar cube from the coffee table.

>>10584364
This is one of the reasons Calvinism is the only Christian theology that is consistent for me. It seems to be gaining in popularity too.

>>10584364
Regardless of how bad I am or what I've done, scapegoating someone who wasn't even involved in my actions is a pantsu-on-head conception of justice. That's really the connection because the origin of scapegoating was the Jewish practice of taking a goat, imparting it with all your bad mojo and then sending it off into the desert to die. This specific, odd (and all too Jewish) superstitious practice is how we can make sense of the crucifixion, not any kind of basic ideas of justice based on personal responsibility and accountability.

>>10584255
Ever heard of be fruitful and multiply?

>>10584409
Yes and my understanding was it was a specific instruction given to the only two men capable of progenerating humanity itself. I'm sure you're following the 611 actual commandments of mosaic law too yes? Oh, you aren't? While you're at the salad bar could you get me another deviled egg?

>>10581377
>and so have His followers even to the present day

>>10584521
yeah, I was like "what"? I'm sure we'd all quickly convert if people were legit performing miracles

>>10581377
BTFO
>>10581691
>>10582705
>>10583491

Christians have been awful in this thread desu. Floundering from one sloppy point to the next.

>>10582033
wow i thought zizek was supposed to be an intellectual

pretty pathetic that the most literate and intellectual board on 4chan doesn't even understand Christianity

>>10584851
pretty sure not even the church itself wants to know what this was about

>>10584879
It couldnt understand islam and kept bringing up hadiths. What more do you expect?

If nobody can understand "there is one God"
How would you expect them to understand "Jesus is God and God is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Jesus"

>>10580977
Not an argument.
/lit/ once again showing how ignorant they are.

>>10582033
Psychoanalysis, like all dualisms, is a fucking joke.
>>10582737
It's a mystery. Fuck off STEMsperg.
You aren't a skeptic, you're regurgitating the same shit I've heard and spewed on plebbit and youtube
>aurelius
Fuck off, Letzter Mensch.
It amazes how many illiterate fucking idiots come on here and try to be 'le skeptical critics' when they don't even know the damn source material.

>>10582737
>just life
Sorry moron, you can't be good without God. Passivity and falling by subhuman statism is not 'just', it is pitiable. Ideology of worms.

>>10584165
Who are you to judge God and decide what is or isn't just?

>>10583422
The trinity is monotheistic. You have no clue what you're talking about. Reductionism is sacrilege.

>>10584899
>>10584916
>>10584922
Take your pills.

>>10584003
It's called faith you fucking moron. Holy shit.
You are evil.
>some ways of life do not require faith
False
>truth
Doesn't exist

>>10584136
>contradictions
Nope, you're just autistics
>not intuitive
MUH BIOLOGY IS LE PERFECT XXDDDEERFDED
Fuck off, flaming retard.

>>10584945
You can have faith in anything though, which is the point he is making. People in the vast majority of cases choose their religion to have faith in depending on the family and country there were born into.

>>10584150
I study religions. You masturbate to nazi frog cartoons.
You know nothing about Christianity. Fuck off back to /pol/.
>>10584178
Nope. Stop spewing shit you don't understand.

>>10584948
Show me a miracle anon

>>10584851
/lit/ is far from literate or intellectual. I realize that more every day.
>>10584946
LE CRAZY XDD DAE HATE CHRISTKEKS?!1/1

>>10584956
>I study religions
Which one did you pick?
Is it cool to insult everyone in that one?

>>10584953
And?
That's not a fucking argument you absolutely illiterate fucking plebbitor.
>>10584961
What?
I focus on Abrahamism with a focus on Rastafarianism.
That's a million times more than the 'autodidacts' on this shithole can say.

>>10584965
Yeah it is. There is no reason to have faith in the resurrection of Jesus.

>>10584965
Are you a believer or do you just study them

>>10584956
>claims to study religions
>thinks that they have the same eschatology
>doesn't realize the ultimate goal of buddhism is total sublimation of personal being (efectively non-existence) making it (and not Christianity) the most radically different.
>also "muh frobs" for some reason

dae religion is for poopoos

>>10584965
>Rastafarianism

>>10584986
>Rastas refer to their practices as "livity". Communal meetings are known as "groundations", and are typified by music, chanting, discussions, and the smoking of cannabis, the latter being regarded as a sacrament with beneficial properties.

>>10584991
>dudeweed lol

begone degenerate

>>10584924
>Christians don't even have basic theory of mind

>>10584929
Ask any Jew, the people God chose and sent His books and prophets to, whether the trinity is monotheistic or not. Moses and Abraham themselves would laugh at such a claim. The trinity wad fabricated by Roman pagans trying to appeal to the Roman pagan masses, to give Christianity political power.

>>10584971
Why?
>>10584972
I like Rastarfarianism because it's ridiculously interesting and totally unlike any other NRM.
>>10584978
Don't put words into my mouth.
Buddhism is Letzter Mensch nonsense, not different. If you knew a thing about Christianity, you might stop spewing shit you learned off of Wikipedia.

>>10585000
Weed isn't incompatible with Christianity

>>10584986
Sorry that complex and subversive thought bothers you because it's black.
Motherfucker they created their own dialect of English to fit their theology. It removes the second and third person and any negatives. It turns Christianity on its head. It's a total insult to everything wrong with the shitcults in the US.

>>10585061
>jews cannot be mistaken
Stop being stupid, whitey.

>>10585110
you really seem to know what you're talking about anon

>>10585110
>don't put words in my mouth

gven that there's a pound of mescaline and a foot already in there, I wouldn't dream of it

>>10585117
That sounds interesting actually.

>>10584896
The Church used to correctly recognize Islam as a heresy and maintain a position of war against it. I think the lessening of this was one of the mistakes of Vatican 2.

He was in deed forsaken by God due to the fact that he carried our sins, but only for a moment and then He was raised from the death by God and lives on.

>>10585491
>he carried our sins
how does one infer that?

I like that movie the last temptation of christ where jesus has an illusion on the cross where he chooses to not be crucified and everything goes to shit and the romans invade his city or whatever and him and all his followers are about to be killed. Then he wakes up from the dream and he is on the cross and yells IT IS ACCOMPLISHED. and then some danke peter Gabriel music plays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0EYRC4NQ-Q

>>10582771
Then he didn't really experience the pain of separation from God, and the crucifixion was just painful physical torture.

You know Socrates didnt have to drink that poison. He could have left town.

>>10584851
Woah, a wise man like you really cuts this board down to size! So sick of retards like you hanging around here literally just to insult it at every opportunity. Its really not that hard: either fuck off or make your peace with /lit/ you smug loser.
>>10584896
>Jesus is God and God is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Jesus
What's it like being so desensitised to Christian doctrine that you think this actually means anything or that there is anything to understand about this little riddle? At least Augustine had the humility to admit language wasn't sufficient to discuss the concept.
>>10584922
>Fulfilling the teachings of Christ by calling people morons and ignoring the fact that many pagan men were greater and more moral than the average Christian.
>It's a mystery
>You aren't a skeptic
And you're not making any arguments. That reply you gave is the equivalent of a shrug but with a load of retarded buzzwords. Try harder: you are nowhere near as intellectual in your faith as you think you are.
>>10584948
>you're just autistics
>flaming retard
Embarrassing.
>>10584956
>>10584958
>>10584965
>>10585110
Not a single argument was made outside of angry teen insults. Also, do me a favour and stop using the term "Letzter Mensch", its one of the terms on the long list of ideas you don't understand.

>>10585110
Why? Because I've read the historical accounts, the apologetics, accounts of bible's veracity and so on, and there's still nothing there to account for a belief in the resurrection in a modern 'rational' sense.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing but I wish both atheists and Christians would just admit it all comes down to faith and nothing more, whether you choose to believe in the account or what happened or not.

>>10584948
I didnt mean intuitive in a biological sense but in a cultural one, if you never grew up hearing these stories or having it unconsciously ingrained in the societal fabric like it is in the West then its much more unwieldy of a religion then you might think.

>>10585144
I don't use drugs.
>>10585537
Arguments are for the weak.

>>10585557
Rationality is invalid
>seculars dont like bible so they write anti-christian narratives
You haven't read anything, stop faking it.
>>10585563
le free thinker111\1/\xddd\1'

>>10585953
Hmmmmmmm....

No

>>10585945
>>10585953
Cringe

>>10582785
>Posts the beautiful psalm 22 that Christ referenced
>Gets no (yous)
>Pseud Christians don't recognize the power
>Anti Christians avoid it like the plague because it btfo all of their semantic arguments
Here's your (you) anon you deserve it.

>>10585557
Most Christians, priests included, do count this as a matter of faith. Remember, even the apostles were doubtful at first. Famously Thomas said he would not believe until he touched the wounds of the resurrected Christ. When he finally did Jesus told him blessed are those who believe without seeing. It has been a matter of incredible faith from the beginning.