/lit/ - Literature

> giving a shit about contemporary poetry

>>10575538
>being a pseud constantly clinging on to "classics"

>>10575538

Yes contemporary poetry is full of trash

That's kind of the point of this article

>>10575585
>established writers with long lasting appeal and decades/centuries of praise
>pseud

I don't think you know what that word means.

>>10575538
>be retard
>be unwarrantedly elitist
>never read anything contemporary
>never try to engage with the world around you
>be surprised when the literary world becomes the domain of dilettantes and pseuds

BASED black poet Lemn Sissay SLAMS Rebecca Watson for not embracing the future of poetry.

>>10575601
Post your masterpiece then

>>10575655
is that the best response you've got
doesn't even make sense
dumbass btfo

>>10575659
You are lacking in logic, probably a woman

McNish seems to acknowledge that her poetry is bad but states that it shouldn't be judged on existing standards. The problem is that seeking to defy standards and actually achieving it are two very different things. She must be incredibly precious not to accept criticism.

>tfw hacks ruin New Sincerity just when you are about to become the Dante of the movement

>>10575690
What I've grown to hate about a lot of "young" (under 35) British writers is that they are simply nihilistic, anti-society, anti-productivity adolescents who would rather write about letting "da world burn" than articulating the specific issues of contemporary British life or whatever, and instead write about how working class children aren't geniuses because dem go no yuff programs. It's retarded. You know, I am actually from a shitty town and was raised by a single mum, and to my eternal embarrassment I used to be a sloppy, far-left, angry, "fuck the world" kind of guy. But at this point I am starting to really support things like private schools, Oxbridge favoritism, and so forth. I think it's because I've realized that it's because of the two options available to "improve" Britain, the one where we simply close down or nationalize private schools, open up Oxford to a horde of Somalians, and so on, simply results in us all standing in ruins equally displeased and angry. Instead we should all as individuals be trying to emulate the kind of high culture represented by private schooling and Oxbridge life. It is beautiful, civilized, and borne of ancient traditions which placed aesthetics, virtue and so on above utility and unpatriotic sentiments.

>>10575724
Yes my friend, yes. Now join us by becoming a traditional Catholic and embracing monarchist views.

>>10575724
>falling for the eton-educated oxford meme

ah yes the sheer quality of britain's leaders from that most distinguished of institutions
really makes me think

>>10575685
not an argument

>>10575655
Taleb tells us Meds of the Lindy Effect and not waste our time with useless contemporary trifles that will be forgotten in two years' time.

>>10575655
It's not about anon's masterpiece, but caring about poetry at all.

>>10575538
If contemporary poetry is allowed to wither, the quality of future of poetic art can only become worse. Poetry will die squirming under twitter's iron stranglehold, and not return until we're no longer slaves to the machine.

>>10575655
>>10575685
>get called a pseud
>retort with "post your masterpiece" as if it had any weight on your pretentiousness or contemporary poetry
>you are lacking in logic
mother of god, anon, if you're so dumb you can't keep your saliva inside your mouth at least do me a favor and stop acting that smug about that

>>10575724
sounds superficial and gay

>>10575724

What your advocating is exactly what we already have. How well is that going again?

>>10575655
>Post your masterpiece then

I know a girl that cuts herself.
In silence and when she is most alone,
Calmly and exactly with sharpened blade,
She opens her veins: lets the scarlet blood
Flow before her admiring eyes. For one ecstatic
Moment, she forgets the self that she hates:
Seeing her blood and guilt being poured out.

. . .

Tell me,
Are you the priestess of the religion of your self?
Are you the sacrifice upon the altar of your skin?
Do you offer your blood in atonement to your self?
Well, this is a very modern cult!
But what does modernity know of religion?

Open the book and you will see:
“Without the shedding of blood,
There is no forgiveness of sins.”
So you are right, my dear, to desire the shedding of blood,
But – stupid woman! – you should know your blood is worthless!
How can your blood, stained with guilt, purify your conscience?

Come,
I will take you to a more ancient temple;
I will teach you the ways of our ancestors;
I will reveal to you a more holy rite and a more precious blood.

First, know this: that since the beginning of the world,
When man first sinned, there has always been the bloody sacrifice:
Upon altars made of stone, guiltless animals were tightly bound,
And with the sacred words said, and the sacred gestures made,
Taking the consecrated knife, the priest slaughtered the victim.
For the wage of sin is death, and even to this day:
The sins of men are crying to heaven for vengeance.

Now enter this temple, and see above this altar:
The body of the living God sacrificed upon the cross!
Look at him, look at him who bled for you!
See his gentle arms spread out,
His innocent hands pierced with nails,
See his feet, his head crowned with thorns,
See the Heart of the God of Love bleeding thick and red.
“Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away
The sin of the world.” Behold the true purification,
Behold the real purgation of your soul.
Behold this woman, Magdalene, a woman more filthy than you,
Behold how she repays his blood with the water of her tears!
Keep your sorry blood to yourself, and imitate this holy lady:
Pour out the perfume of your love upon his sacred body.
I want you to see yourself through his eyes.
I want to see you holy and pure like the angels.
Take this chalice of the blood of your redemption:

Drink it ’til you are drunk,
And let me never see you sober again.

>>10575713
Would Dante have been a /lit/izen posting gay frog memes?

>>10575729
I'm by no means a monarchist and religious belief does nothing for me I'm afraid.

>>10575730
I'm not merely a bootlicker for the toffs. I've met plenty of good old boys who have no experience of life outside their bubble and who are dim-witted faux-lads who would in fact be sincere lads if their parents let them and if there was any money in it. But notions such as tradition, chivalry, natural feminine beauty and the refined noble gentleman are things to be aspired to imo, regardless of how LARPy that all sounds. In the race to the bottom culture of contemporary Britain simply being a little self-disciplined or reserved is in itself a tribute to the higher standards represented by British high culture. To cite a personal example, i.e. from my own life: I have always tended to attract a 'type' of girl (and indeed boy on some occasions) which I would describe as being sensitive, shy, traditionally-minded, intelligent and cute. I should however point out that other girls outside this 'type' have desired me also (including a 5'8 French girl who invited me to penetrate her within several days of knowing her), but it is this type I am talking about here. While living in a working class environment, a girl of this type, who I won't name, became attracted to me and I became besotted by her despite the fact nobody else seemed to notice her. While other girls were getting screwed, fingered, snogged and whatever else by my male peers, she remained quiet and cute, though her friends were all scum from, I hesitate to say this, poor families. Now fastforward a few years and I was pushed to the sidelines because of my continued purity, refinement and immense intelligence, while the object of my affection became herself a heavily rouged slut who I am sure had sex by the age of sixteen and I even believe engaged in some form of inter-erotic act with my best friend at the time. Now many years later, two in fact, I met a girl who resembled the other girl very much, though she was from a wealthy family and had attended private school and then Cambridge. She also showed attraction to me as my first girlfriend did, in a shy and hesitant manner. This girl however was and is not likely to ever become a trashy ladette slag simply because she was raised within the context of British high culture, and so even should she occasionally desire to 'go wild' as my ladeyte teenage crush no-doubt did and still does, the boundaries of her culture prevent her from turning into a gaping, wrinkled, loud-mouthed cunt and so she will likely live her entire life as a refined yet passionate, experienced yet pure kind of girl. Unfortunately she and I never dated despite the fact she showed interest in me (I have recorded evidence of her displays of affection over time into a lengthy Word document) but still she remains in my mind the flaming beacon in my mind towards which I look (upwards of course) when I am feeling down, she is the pure shining light which brightens my day.

>>10575845

Almost definitely. He fell in love with a girl and waited nine years to even hear her voice.

>>10575528
>denigration
lmao she said it

>post Rebecca Watts article on /lit/ several weeks ago
>nobody cares
>it rustles jimmies on twitter and the guardian yesterday
>becomes worthy of /lit/'s attention
>is she /ourgirl/

nope. you cunts are as ignorant about poetry as kaur, mcnish et al

>>10575846
how are your grades Oxfordbro?

>>10575839
Not really, because I acknowledge that the situation is far from ideal, with a minority of highly cultured aesthetes representing the best of British to tourists etc while the rest of the population live in terraced slums trudging through the train through multi-ethnic streets to their ugly utilitarian-designed office block where they sit like dent-head Wojaks all day browsing facebook. What I advocate is encouraging schools from the top down to emulate the best private schools and universities to reflect the culture and so on of Oxford rather than the "UNNNAAAYY" lad culture bingefest which is currently going on. This means higher academic expectations, stricter codes of ethics and dress, and a frankly defined hierarchy of behaviour and so on which does not pander to the equality crowd. I mean in a private girls school you can hardly break wind without being expelled or shamed while in Grimsby Comp you can dress how you want, treat others how you want, etc wither neither punishment nor reward being dished out as a reward.

>>10575846
Based oxfordbro, you are too magnificent for this gay earth.

I would fuck her desu

>>10575846
>But notions such as tradition, chivalry, natural feminine beauty and the refined noble gentleman are things to be aspired to imo
you will never stop being unhappy

>>10575882
*as a result

*(many other misspellings)

>>10575916
That is actually a fate I embrace wholeheartedly. Happiness is a foolish ideal, and the pursuit of what is essentially a mirage of an emotion (unlike hate, for example) is beyond pointless. Look at Larkin, for example, a fine poet of recent times whose genius was predicated on his unwillingness to leave his boring job and pursue the phantom of consistent contentment as advertised by the fad of celebrity and so on. He could easily have become an ever-smiling, poet laureate, darling of the dinner circuit type poet but his output would have been zero. Instead he became or continued to be a conservative, anti-semitic, racist, traditionalist whose empathy for the poor of Hull (imagine the sight!) was not due to his being aware that writing about their plight would help him get a good write-up in The Guardian, nor because he became the kind of edgy anti-society rebel that many writers tend to become once they're kicked out of the workforce. It's because he himself became the finest and most refined example of what he could become, and he deeply regretted the fact that so many others either did not nor because of their desperation could not appreciate the subtle transcendent beauty of life (even if experienced alone in a rented attic in Hull after a long day at the library) the way he could.

>>10575846
I can't believe that it took me until this post to realize who you were.

>>10575937
My good blade carves the casques of men,
My tough lance thrusteth sure,
My strength is as the strength of ten,
Because my heart is pure.
The shattering trumpet shrilleth high,
The hard brands shiver on the steel,
The splinter'd spear-shafts crack and fly,
The horse and rider reel:
They reel, they roll in clanging lists,
And when the tide of combat stands,
Perfume and flowers fall in showers,
That lightly rain from ladies' hands.

How sweet are looks that ladies bend
On whom their favours fall!
For them I battle till the end,
To save from shame and thrall:
But all my heart is drawn above,
My knees are bow'd in crypt and shrine:
I never felt the kiss of love,
Nor maiden's hand in mine.
More bounteous aspects on me beam,
Me mightier transports move and thrill;
So keep I fair thro' faith and prayer
A virgin heart in work and will.

>>10575846
>my continued purity

>>10575528
My Brown Skin
is like a FIRE
once published
twice SCORCHED
within me the feeling
without me the unfeeling
and it is not of me
that you may find your own publisher
but in the Brownness of
the publisher's SKIN
by which I mean
are the pages womanly?
do they turn and skirt
the world of coloured FEELING?
For I am Human
All Too Coloured
yes
and read me
for the shekels are not me
but reparations
for all those
who could not be
POEMS
OF
COLOUR
and did i mention
how my parents
were like a prism
OF
DARKER
HUES?

>>10575970
Thanks for posting this. Hadn't read it in a while.

>>10575638
kate tempest is actually pretty good tho

>>10575844
Why would you even reply to that? Copy and paste something from TS Eliot or the Flanders field poem, and move on.

>>10576031
Give me all the rhymes you can, in 30 seconds, with the word "Bruv".

>>10575638
why is it important that Lemn Sissay be described as a "black" poet? isn't she just a poet? I say no. She sounds like she enjoys shit poetry for the sake of gaining social justice credibility. She holds politics above art, and therefore cannot truly be called an artist.

>>10576075
Did you just effing MISGENDER the BASED NEGRO minstrel Lemn Sissay?!?!?

>>10576075
Who called her 'black poet'? I only see anon doing it.

>>10575846
>(I have recorded evidence of her displays of affection over time into a lengthy Word document)
Brilliant

https://youtu.be/7kwyihYaIp4

>>10576075
>She holds politics above art, and therefore cannot truly be called an artist.

You are adorable, anon.

>>10576163
He's right. Political influence on art is absolutely disgusting, whether it's far-left resentment garbage or based alpha far-right stoicism etc. There's no need of it. And I say that as a classical National Socialist.

>>10576167
>Dante is disgusting
>Dostoevsky is disgusting
>Dickens, Eliot and a good portion of the victorian novelists are disgusting
>Pindar is disgusting
>Tolstoy is disgusting
>Camoes is disgusting
>Virgil is disgusting
no wonder you're a natsoc brainlet

>>10575528
The problem is money as an abstract idea has replaced all other categorically different superlative meanings. If someone has a lot of money we cannot question his intelligence, work-ethic, or sexual proficiency, creativity, or quality. Money in an abstract form engulfs all these qualities. Therefore it is now a legitimate rebuttal to simply to point out one's bank account and if the number on it is large enough one cannot question the particular person's capability in any of those categories. Whether you find that ridiculous or not is beside the point, when a homeless man questions a rich man's intelligence in a social setting, the rich man does not have to do anything, the very people around them will as hipnotized engage in destruction of whatever little social value the homeless man had left. Therefore to critics like OP a Rupi Kaur-like person can always reply or even just hint: "Yeah, but how much money have you made?" and the mammon worshipping crowd will side with her in derisively and mockingly discrediting the lady in OP.

>>10576174
None of these writers are political writers, in the sense that none can be tied to a political allegiance or "figured out" by the content of their books alone. Dusty for example was pretty conservative IRL, Tolstoy had a very curious relationship with the poor masses etc. They first and foremost wrote about people in their respective contexts, without lampooning them as le ebil right-winger vs le humble leftwing saint.

>>10576174
The writers you mention still lived in a time when politics was still somewhat poetic.

>>10576205
Social realist novelists eg Dickens will always be suspected of being a leftist demagogue or a patronizing conservative lamenting the irredeemable poor. The different is that their erudition meant that their work is very subtle and nuanced hence the centuries of study and analysis. It's different from writing a poem that reads: "You know the Tories, yeah? / FUCK the Tories"

>>10576191
Just because their political perspective can't be fit into your brainlet anglo political UsVsThem dicotomy doesn't mean that they aren't political writers. Dante's political perspective is fierce and unapologetic, he puts his enemies in fucking hell for Christ sake. Dostoevsky's political perspective is also explicit in everything he wrote after Notes. The fact that you didn't catch that tells me you're either retarded, poorly read or you didn't read him at all.
What you probably mean is that you don't like poorly written propaganda (congrats).

Why the fuck does it say "verification not required for your next post?"

Undo this NOW

>>10575638
>you're on the wrong side of history
>#poetlivesmatter
>defending decontextualization
Holy shit I can smell the marxism

>>10575970
That's Larkin? My god, is this bad.

>>10576191
You have no idea what you're talking about. Dostoyevsky's conservative politics can be seen from a mile away in his books, of course he was conservative IRL as well. Read a book on the history of literature, it might make you less of a brainlet.

>>10576205
>a time when politics was still somewhat poetic
This nigga...

>>10576333
No, that's Tennyson. Larkin is like the inverse of that, and is just as bad (most likely worse).

>>10575538
She's talking about why a lot of contemporary poetry is shit, an idea that it sounds like you agree with.

>>10575538
>I can't make up my own opinion on things and must rely on others to tell me what to like.

>>10576180
But by doing that they delegitimise their work in the admission that profit is a factor in its purpose, the reality is they'll ignore her, if they see her critique at all, that is.

>>10575844
Pretty good, why no rhyme?

>>10575538
.t non reader or Pope-esque LARPer

>>10575655
i have a masterpiece or two, but you'd never read them, because their contemporary

>>10575846
you gonna get a good girl bruv seems like you've got the options?

>>10575528
i wanna kiss her on the lips

>>10575939
Who are they?

>>10576792
No longer, I'm afraid. I should perhaps have explained that while my earlier post may have suggested that many girls have felt attracted to me (or that I have judged them to have been) it is worth clarifying that most girls I meet or have met either pity me (e.g. describing me as "too pure" in a friendly but patronizing manner) or simply dismiss me as some kind of mute weirdo. I used to despise this and make great efforts to earn their affection or at least their validation, but at this point I am fine with the notion that most people I meet think of me as some kind of Prince Myshkin-esque individual whose autism (they likely suspect) renders him an innocent, naive, inexperienced, childlike, "nice" pushover. As long as there is one girl on this earth who may find me attractive and my disposition not so objectionable that she would never entertain the prospect of falling in love with me, then my relationship with the opposite sex is fine. And as I also wrote, the girl I met relatively recently affected me so much with her sheer uniqueness in my eyes that I would be content to spend the rest of my life, however pathetic this may sound, simply relishing the memory of the few times she smiled at me and those various brief moments we spent time in one another's company without speaking or even acknowledging one another beyond the occasional glance. Is it true love? Is it a consequence of a dejected young man adoring a beautiful girl who paid him attention? Is it the working class young man who admires the beautiful girl because of the fact her own upper-class status validated him in some way as potentially civilized, refined and so forth? I imagine I shan't ever know. But I don't care to analyze it too much, because the feeling her memory allows me is such that analyzing it too much would risk leaving it hollow. I simply care for her, as one might care for that aspect of oneself which is clean, pure, virtuous, kind, tender and so forth.

>>10576877
who r u?

>>10575846

Oxfordbro what college?

I'm in Green Templeton, which is decidedly crap

>>10576887
God bless you Oxbro. I hope you find a good wife one day who will put your mind at ease.

>getting this upset over today's addition to the continuous trend of vapid mainstream poetry that ultimately fades into obscurity
outspoken reactionaries are jealous dullards

>>10576938
agreed, they hatred is more useful aimed at Bukowski anyway

>>10575528
based desu

>>10576191
>The Divine Comedy can't be tied to a political allegiance or "figured out" by the content of the books alone

>>10576898

>>10575528
>stating the obvious is based when a female does it
*tip*

>>10576234
>neoliberal appeals to market variety
>marxism
Holy shit i can smell the illiteracy

>>10575538
>implying post modernist poetry (not kaur, actual epic poetry) isn't amazing

>>10576002
>for the shekels are not me

nibba wtf is this /pol/ shit

>>10575538

>mfw you're actually right and most contemporary poetry is fucking shit written by edgy feminists

>>10577327
>actual epic poetry
That shit still exists?

>>10577529
http://www.otago.ac.nz/deepsouth/vol1no3/dolan1_issue3.html

>>10577655
What the shit are all those dots, is that a facebook post?

>>10575599
Please tell me how a writer becomes a 'classic' without first being contemporary?

>>10577760
Postmortem discovered manuscripts, of course.

I wrote a long-form metered poem that's somewhere around 280k words and god knows how many lines, should I publish it /lit/?

>>10578222
No reason not to try

>>10577760
Bach, widely considered the greatest musician of all time, was virtually unknown in his lifetime. He didn't gain any notoriety till 80 years after his death. William Blake died unknown. So did Melville.

>>10578233
(Not) being popular does not correlate with (not) being contemporary.

>she was music / but he had his ears cut off
how do i get off this ride

>>10576174
>>10577103
>Dante is remembered because of his political polemics

>>10576174
>forgetting John "regicide" Milton

He was right. We made fun of him, but he was right all along. We should've listened.

>>10576174
Those writers are canonized for their aesthetic achievements and the psychological depth of their characters, not their politics.

>>10575846
>I have recorded evidence of her displays of affection over time into a lengthy Word document
British autism is the best

>>10578466
I didn't imply that they are "canonized for their politics" (you could argue that Dostoevsky actually is, since his political perspective is inseparable from what and how he wrote and retreating into the territory of "psychological depth" is typical anglo milquetoast retardness, but probably you don't even understand how canonization happens in the first place).
I was responding to that other retard who said that political influence of any kind on art is "absolutely disgusting".
Please learn to read.

Seem legit.

>>10578508
I wasn't part of that discussion. What i'm saying is that the "art is primarily political" crowd needs to understand the role aesthetics play in determining the longevity of a work. The presentism of so many contemporary works is gross.

And the term "psychological depth" is absolutely appropriate here. Concerns over how a society is organized aren't as intergenerationally interesting as accurately portraying psychological features all of humanity share and will continue to share for millennia.

>>10575846
I like you, anon.

>>10578466
>>10578422
lrn2 read you morons

>>10578589
>I wasn't part of that discussion
But you literally just jumped into that discussion with your unrelated arguments. There is no "art is primarily political" crowd here in the first place.
>The presentism of so many contemporary works is gross.
You're uneducated and incapable of recognizing presentism in numerous classical works and don't really follow contemporary works to be able to say anything meaningful about their style either. Fuck off back to mu you subhuman attentionwhoring cretin

>>10578730
A lot of pre-20th century artists thought that they were working with eternal forms, and tried to construct what they thought was an objective theory of aesthetics. Contemporaneous issues got into their works, but it was a completely different way of perceiving art than the after school special-tier nonsense we get in contemporary fiction. The "voice" an identity gives you wasn't considered a valid enough justification for the study and propagation of a particular work until recently.

>>10575528
this is the most valuable and important literary criticism in years, mainly because it's coming from a respected female. hell, she more or less copy-pasted daily /lit/ threads

DAAAAAAMN GRRRRLLLLL

>>10575528
cute

Memes aside, this is an excellent essay that needed to be written

>>10575528
This cuttie can rupi my kaur any time she wants.

>>10576812
even cute girls are sluts

>>10580236
So, do you think I have a chance?

>>10576002
Brilliant. If anything the imagery is too good.

>>10576340
Take that back. Larkin is fantastic you stupid cunt.

>>10576002
better than rupert kaulo desu