/lit/ - Literature

>>10565872
Artforms die. Its a fact people don't think about but it seems absolutely clear to me.
The Epic poem was once the dominant mediaform of practically all civilizations and that is gone.
Painting used to be revered as the king of arts and its a laughing stock now.
Theatre home of the official GOAT Shakespeare is now a ghetto for homosexuals and self-indulging celebrities.

The novel I'm afraid has reached its dead end.
People will still be writing books and some will pretend to read them but serious readership.

The only hope I can see is in Audiobooks. If I was writing a novel now I would be specifically producing it as an audiowork first and a book second. I think David Foster Wallace saw this coming in his meticulous readings of his own work.

Don't know, don't care. I like writing, it's not something I have to rely on for income.

>>10565896
You care about being read though. You can pretend you don't but you do

>>10565872
I think the biggest unspoken factor is the huge amount of reading we do every day. I read your post, emails, texts, and all day at work. People are associating reading with interpersonal obligation.
Anybody can also just download classics as PDFs and forget to read them because they had porn or video games open in another tab. (That's why I buy hard copies.)
Obviously the huge influx of trash literature is a huge turnoff. I stop by the bookshelves every time I stop into the normie store and I've never purchased anything, but I'll never leave Books a Million empty handed.

The decline of literature is inevitable. Memes are the new way to transfer ideas.

>>10565903
there'll be people reading until quite some time after I'm dead

>>10565909
Probably not you though

>>10565906
>(That's why I buy hard copies.)

What you can watch porn on Kindles?

>>10565912
I don't think anyone reads after they're dead, friend.

>>10565922
I have a Kindle, but work in an environment where personal electronics are not allowed. I suppose THAT is why I buy hard copies,\ and I do have some significant mileage on my e-book.
Still, the apocalypse will not be kind to electronic devices. Need that hardcover Walden if I'm to survive the endless nuclear winter.

>>10565872
Great questions.
>>10565891
Great response.

I'll post again if and when I think about it more.

>>10565936
>Still, the apocalypse will not be kind to electronic devices

You never know, if you get a gas generator you have yourself an entire library you can fit in your pocket. Useful shit

>>10565922
the 2D kind

>>10565872
The lack of interest doesn't stem from the medium itself though (Paperback or kindle See >>10565906
). The masses have never and will never be interested in literature. I don't think pandering to them is the best option.

>>10565891
Why do artforms die? Is it due to a lack of interest, or a tarnishing of the form?

Is there a video of>her getting fucked on camera?

>>10566003
>Why do artforms die?

Technology. The Epic Poem was king in pre-literate societies because it limited people to memorizing works which meant a very limited catalogue of stories you could accurately remember.
Having one or two big works meticulously engineered with all its details and rhymes was justified in such a situation.

The internet is killing books because people are overloaded with different perspectives, ideas and outlets to write even if most of it isn't very good. It makes it hard for the average person to commit themselves to one persons mind when they feel fatigued by a constant onslaught of tiny pricks (pun intended).

>>10566021
This....

>>10565872
Very interesting questions. I remember reading an interview of Javier Marías where they asked him if poetry was dead in this century and he said "Probably. But it will continue in the form of songs, in a way." Also a lot of movies are based on books, as long as there is books to adapt, books will not be forgotten by the media..

>>10565891
It's been happening across the board. Absolute music? Dead. Most western-art music genres are non-existent outside of the euro academia. Not sure, but it was probably Shostakovich who last wrote an good symphony or a string quartet. US produces Glass or Adams with their brainlet compositions and Europe is still retrenched to dusty studies trying to become the next Beethoven. Fuck, we had Eroica in 1801 and Rite of Spring by 1913, so we're already years behind schedule for some redefining masterpiece. And how about literature or philosophy? I thought Zizek polluting masses with BigThink videos was bad, but then we got Petercon. Like, fuck anons... is this the end?

>shemale
I got cheated again
fuck u OP

>>10565906
>People are associating reading with interpersonal obligation.

I agree. It's overwhelming. It does feel like a chore, and especially when so much of what is available to read online is simply a person blogposting at length for attention. The repulsion felt towards such articles etc tends to be transferred for me to novels at times.

>>10566053
>is this the end?

Only in your prayers

>>10566029
Maybe art should focus on death and god again?
Those are things no one can escape.

>>10565872
>>publishers are looking for women, LGTBQ and people of colour ahead of white males (not bait)

How can we honestly saying anything about privilege with a straight face?

>>10566029
Felt okay until >(pun intended)
Only reddit/twitterfags use this

>>10566069
On the contrary I think people must be fooled into reading today

>>10565872
Genre fiction sells. The task of the 21st century is to turn genre fiction into art.

>>10566069
Until it gets boring

>>10566003
I think it's incorrect to say the masses have never been interested.

It would be a waste of time for me to point out that trashy books like 50 Shades tend to be widely read. But even more serious literature has often found a large mainstream audience in the past. Examples include Dickens and his serialized novels in the British newspapers etc, or the works of Jack London (although his pulpy stuff was more widely appreciated).

What I'm concerned about is the dwindling audience for literary fiction specifically. I think Cat Person was perhaps uplifting in the response it received, but even so many people mistook it as a "piece" or a blogpost or something. Perhaps that is the way forward, i.e. pitching pieces of fiction as brutally frank blog-type pieces, though of course this would mean sacrificing subtlety, creative means of expression and so forth.

>>10566077
Put it on your blog faggot

>>10566082
lol no

>>10566049
But what modern books that may be appreciated by /lit/ have been made into films? I'm sure there are some (The Circle comes to mind), but it doesn't seem as much of a "norm" as it once was to go from book to film.

>>10566097
This, good screenplay material doesn't mean a good book and vice versa

>>10565872
>suspect >she has a penis
>google pic
>it is indeed the case
god what ive become

>>10566087
>or a blogpost

It literally was though. It was autobiographical

>>10566074
What do you mean?

It has more to do with the interests of the elite. 200 years ago, if you didn't know the classics you were a brainlet. Today, if you don't know STEM you're a brainlet. STEM is where all the new money comes from. Technology is where all the social change is happens. So the new elites are people who consider the people in their schools' humanities departments to be a bunch of pretentious dudes and basic art hoes. Arts no longer hold their throne as a mark of culture/intelligence, it's all about dat maths now. The new elites see "literary fiction" as a mere affectation, like taste in pop music or something, it's no longer serious business. Young white boy who makes a startup doesn't care that his dad reads Faulkner. Young Pajeet making a killing at his cellular retail company doesn't give a fuck about literature or has his own weird ideas about western art.

Outside of affluent first worlders, art has never held much currency except indirectly as the wagies were shaped by the ideas of their masters, whose ideas were shaped by art. But now the masters are shaped by STEM. So literature is less relevant to both master and servant.

I avoid commie terminology for a reason but just insert what you want, you can see where I'm going with this.

>>10566049
>as long as there is books to adapt, books will not be forgotten by the media.
Wut? Mate, why even bother writing a book if Disney can just order their team of meme screenplay writers to pulp together material for the next blockbuster movie? Does not follow.

>>10565872
>retain a large audience
has literature ever really had a large audience?

>>10565872
He is too cute to be real, people like this make me mad jealous.

>>10566115
He means he hates women and minorities

>>10566121
Because that team of screenplay writers end up picking up a book so they don't need to come up with a story

>>10566115
they're just some tumblr mentalist who takes it for granted that everything easier for white males

>>10566104
It wasn't wholly autobiographical, in the sense of it being a literal retelling of actual events step-by-step. It was based on a bad date she experienced, but there are obvious literary embellishments there for the sake of creating a narrative and asserting character traits etc.

What I find interesting about Kristen Roupenian is the fact that before this piece she was partly known for writing horror fiction. I've written about this before, but I think it's interesting to consider the fact that she found it so easy to apply her experience writing horror to the modern dating scene. A natural progression, one might say. It's a shame she did an interview about the story and basically revealed that she was trying to shit on Robert with the ending, but other than that it was an interesting story IMO which really offered a frank portrayal of dating and love in general that cuts through the typical "her loins warmed for him" or "he entered her" tropes that generally passes for romance stories.

>>10566129
Yeah

>>10566140
>It's a shame she did an interview about the story and basically revealed that she was trying to shit on Robert with the ending

Agree with your perspective, the writing eclipsed
the writer

>>10566120
I agree with this, combined with the fact that the stuff that the new elite enjoy is trash. I would argue that most STEMfags don't see the appeal and instead completely disregard the medium, instead favoring Nerd Culture.

>>10566087
With your Dickens example, could it be that it was popular simply because it was the only thing in town at the time. Has reading lost its spectacle simply because there are more seemingly flashy things that one can spend their time with now?

>>10565872
>>10565891
>The only hope I can see is in Audiobooks.
I think there is a lot of hope here actually. Producing an audiobook is really an art in itself.

With the onslaught of information overload with which we are confronted today and the difficulty that induces in many on their ability to focus on something like a substantial text, audiobooks could be a huge boon, even a serious therapeutic tool imo.

Also, there is a lot of talk these days about mechanization, robots tekin our jerbs etc, but regardless there are still going to be a lot of mundane maintenance and service tasks that people are going to need to do for quite a while yet, and (as I've found from personal experience) audiobooks are a really wonderful way to do power through a repetitive, otherwise menial work day and still feel fulfilled and personally productive.

>>10566053
>is this the end (of music also)?
There is so much going on musically in the underground that is incredibly insightful and innovative. You just have to know where to look and what to look for, and that takes an appreciation of our contemporary context, i.e. of the overall impact had by the electric guitar. If you don't account for that piece of musical technology, I can see why you would look at Shostakovich and then at Glass and feel like this is the end, but if you can appreciate the apotheosis of metal that is happening right now, some of what is being produced these days is really quite amazing, in its own particular way.

>>10566168
>the apotheosis of metal
Somebody nuke this board, nuke it right now, end the suffering.

>>10566120
I developed a theory which probably isn't novel, which posits that the notion of "progress" for humanity / society consists largely in aspects of Elite culture becoming available by the "masses" who desire such things for their proposed high value.

Examples range from access to voting to Kitsch art, i.e. mass produced versions of previously unique pieces of high-value Elite art.

It also posits that such progress, while meaningful in some areas (access to affordable healthcare, voting etc) in others the breaking down of hierarchical barriers and widely distributing things that were previously reserved for a small minority (not necessarily just the rich, just the talented in some cases) on the one hand makes people applaud the democracy of such a decision, but on the other renders that thing boring and low-value due its mystique and distinction now being rendered common. An example in this case would be self-publishing, social media, blogging etc. While at one time literary expression took a long time to perfect, edit and so forth before finally squeezing its way past the cultural elites and released to the masses, it is now simply a matter of opening pastebin and writing a 2,000 furry fanfiction or self-publishing a novella about a woman who has an affair with a poltergeist. Although this does allow "hidden gems" to be discovered that would have otherwise been rejected, it also trivializes the whole affair to an extent, in the way that wearing Burberry is a big no-no for the fashionable.

>>10566115

The notion of racial and gender privilege as it's widely presented in America today, and to a lesser extent the rest of the west.

Oh, are most of today's published American authors white males? As in more than 30%(more than what's relative to their share of the population)? And you think that justifies positive discrimination towards the non-white, non-male, non-whatever author. Well then, you're carrying the burden of proof when you attribute that to racial privilege. I'll make fewer assumptions and say it's down to self-selection in career choices and perhaps just differences in average quality.
Maybe, I've been thinking under a misapprehension this whole time. Maybe publishers just throw themselves at white males, as opposed to writers who's work show promise in today's reader's market.

>>10566152
It reminds me of Pessoa's quotation about being understood as a form of prostitution.

>>10566167
>could it be that it was popular simply because it was the only thing in town at the time

Possibly / probably, but even so surely that still means something. Even if people only read the book (or any one of the many other serialized books that were well-received) because they lacked alternatives, I'm tempted to state that lacking distraction was a good thing and compelled them to focus on something marginally less boring than simply staring out the window or drinking at the pub. So much distraction available today is intended to take advantage of the most basic desires inherent in us, be it lust (pornography), callous curiosity (tabloid journalism), cheap laughs (vloggers etc) or whatever else.

>>10565872
>literature
>a large audience
what

>audiobooks

lol no, normies care less about those than regular books. The future of art is unironically video games BUT WAIT! Let me clarify.

I think what we have at the moment known as "video games", "interactive fiction", and a host of other ideas that are ultimately several art forms merged into one will eventually become a "supermedium". For example, a lot of vidya contains passages of text. A lot of IF contains music and so on. Right now, video games are primitive colosseums mainly developed to abuse dopamine loops and thus make money, in the same way that cave paintings were shit because the people making them were cave men. The cave men of video games are nerds. But video games are increasingly becoming part of the sphere of affluence, and a new generation of intelligent, well-read, accomplished people are starting to pay attention to video games.

So I think what will happen is that as the technology improves to make "video games" (the supermedium needs its own title really) more immersive they will go on to become art that rivals literary canon. When you can put on a pair of goggles and be instantly transported to a hyper-realistic simulation of WWII *in which you undergo a curated, well written experience that also allows some freedom of choice*, who the fuck wants to read a bunch of text? It will have more impact than words ever could. Bonus: you can read words while you're in the supermedium, and that may very well be a part of the experience itself. So in that way, literature becomes merely a part of something much greater, rather than a thing unto itself.

I will rescue it from the depths

>>10566232
>lol no, normies care less about those than regular books.

Untrue, they're growing at a rapid rate

>>10566251
One doesn't contradict the other.

>>10566232
I think you're onto something by focusing on interactive media, in a sense. The time of one author making a (relatively) one-dimensional work of art is over, but the time of a team of collaborating craftsmen, authors, designers etc. making, to use a tired term, "art experiences" that can be interacted with (which until now are still called video games, but will soon lose that label). There's massive potential in that, and it's in many ways closer to the forms of art we know from the times when writing first emerged.

Unfortunately, this will of course all be tied to the experiences consumers expect, which are dumb and formulaic, up to a point. But it'll develop, I'm sure, and there will be writers needed for this, in one particular role, more like the writers of the libretto for an opera than the author superstar.

Our prophet Dave foresaw it already 15 years ago in his meme interview. He already knew that people feel 'almost dread' reading away from social media and pop culture. It's not going to change unless people remove them altogether or unwire themselves. It will be just naturally becoming more difficult to find someone who can appreciate high art, even more so someone who can create it.

>>10566232
>who the fuck wants to read a bunch of text When you can put on a pair of goggles
the people who make art

>>10566251
They are? Personally I always though audiobooks were annoying, so I'd just grabbed a regular book.

>>10566251
im glad you ignored the rest of the sperg out /v/edditor post thank you for your service anon. ill pay it forward somehow

>>10566207
>So much distraction available today is intended to take advantage of the most basic desires inherent in us
This is part of the giant problem. Why would I pursue any sort of higher art or knowledge if I can just sit around and jerk it? Pigs can be content sitting in the slop, I guess. However, thankfully not everyone has to be that way.

>>10566232
Is more immersion necessarily a good thing? Why does everything have to be an interactive experience? Can we not be content with sitting and reading?

>>10566179

I dunno if that's a novel idea either, but it's a good one that seems plausible.

>>10565906
Just because there is more stuff and stuff is moving faster doesn't mean everything is going to shit? Survival of the fittest, more noise to filter etcetera

>>10566296
>Is more immersion necessarily a good thing? Why does everything have to be an interactive experience?
so the consumer can be measured in every way possible

>>10566120
>tfw masters degree in mathematics and well-versed in literature

>>10566232
>"supermedium"
i feel baited

>>10566271
>Unfortunately, this will of course all be tied to the experiences consumers expect, which are dumb and formulaic, up to a point.

It will be same thing we have now. Sure, the popular "supermedium experiences" or whatever might be 50 Shades of Gray tier, but there will be a minority who appreciate and produce more artistic material as there also has been in any art.

But there is one big difference and great possibility: depending on how this type of thing is used, it may very well be so powerful that it shapes the masses of people who typically enjoy garbage into smarter, better people. When you are no longer subject to limitations of a given form and can literally force people to understand exactly what you want them to understand via an experience, there is no room left for error: they will see what you want them to see, and if done correctly it will probably make them want something more. For example, by having an experience that truly shows a reality in which mathematics are important (like the life of a young math prodigy who goes on to become an advertising magnate) and showcases why such a thing is desirable and is sympathetic to the user, it may very well make people want to be like that guy and pursue what he does, because they empathize with him in a way that they never could in other artforms.

>when all the politics of the past were a waste of time and you fix society by turning everyone into geniuses or at least relaxed, fair people who know longer wish to enslave each other, with futuristic video games

Here are the publishing strategies that I believe are available to the average /lit/ users, who I will describe as being: male, white, heterosexual, 18 - 35, working-to-middle class, college educated with a preference either for genre fiction (sci-fi, horror, Weird) or literary fiction. Apologies if that doesn't cover you.

__________

PUBLISHING STRATEGIES FROM PREDICTABLE OUTCOME TO UNPREDICTABLE OUTCOME

__________

>MFA Degree
Apply for an MFA and get in. Don't risk being @thatguyinyourMFA by speaking too much or stating a preference for dead white authors. Build connections and get some stuff published, build a portfolio and try and launch a career from that. Preferable have a "niche", i.e. being disabled, a war Vet, or from West Virginia. Examples: George Saunders, David Foster Wallace, Philip Meyer, Emma Cline, a ton of others.

>Beat The Game
Write a book. Pitch to agents. Get rejected. Keep pitching. Get some stories / poems published. Build a portfolio. Keep pitching. Get rejected. Keep pitching. Get published by an independent press. Get reviewed well. Get published by a larger publishing house. Examples: Tao Lin, Charles Bukowski, David Mitchell, a lot of others.

>Self-Publish On Amazon
Write a book. Prepare a marketing strategy. Set some money aside for promotional adverts etc. Send it around to some blogs. Allow a set amount of free purchases. Sell for a low price on Amazon and hope it gains traction via positive reviews, word of mouth and so on. Examples: Andy Weir, Amanda Hocking, Sheila Rodgers, a lot of people not discussed on /lit/.

>Self-Publish On 4chan
Write a book. Carefully edit your work. Carefully format your work to make it aesthetically pleasing. Upload it in PDF form. Either shill it relentlessly on /lit/ using various proxies to make it seem like it has received a large, positive response from various users thus forcing your meme and hoping the resident pseuds buy into the hype and shill it for you OR have some decency and simply present it for free and ask for feedback / a response and hope it gains natural memetic traction and becomes an internet dark horse, cult, Outsider art piece. Examples: My Twisted World, that guy who published his poetry pamphlet here and received ~300k views on Imgur, Train Story on 2chan, that homemade manga about the virgin girl who had sex with a female prostitute to overcome her anxiety, The Philmarilion, The Legend of the 10 Elemental Masters,

Cont...

>>10566318
>art will save the world
Are you on drugs?

>>10566318
>Dude just plug into the machine. It'll be great!
This sounds like the way humanity ends. This artform to end all artforms idea is very frightening to me.

Literature will unevitably die. It's a consequence of technology and the values of modern society. In this hedonistic world who would mind about literature or high forms of art? It does not matter anymore, our leaders think on terms of immediate benefit, so STEM is more important right now. Therefor, the average Joe just needs some soulless technical work to get the money to satisfies himself with mindless consumption.

Just embrace it and try to adapt literature to the new mediums (videogames unironically, movies, music)

>>10566321
__________

>Self-Publish In Print
Demand as many financial loans as possible for as much money as you can. Order as many copies as possible of your book fromm lulu or another printing company. Distribute these books en masse to select demographics (booksellers, book clubs, editors, respected writers, professors etc.) with a brief note explaining your background and ambitions. Flee across the border until the time comes when your book is published by a reputable press and the money you make from is sufficient to pay back the loan companies who would have requested a warrant for your arrest.

>Pizza Delivery
Acquire a pizza delivery person's uniform. Buy a large pizza and request an empty box to go with it. Place your manuscript in the empty pizza box. Head to the offices of a reputable publishing company. Tell the receptionist you are delivering a pizza, in an Italian accent, and claim not to understand her when she tells you to stop. Go to the office of the editors / publishers and leave both boxes for them, asking kindly that they consider your work in return for a free pizza.

>Kris Kristofferson Strategy
Kris Kristofferson struggled to find anybody willing to hear his songs. As a trained helicopter pilot he flew a helicopter and landed it in the garden of Johnny Cash, demanding that he consider his work. This plan succeeded and he became a household name. Lacking a helicopter licence or a driver's licence, your own version would involve your mother driving you around the country to the homes of writers you respect and having her wait nearby while you knock their doors with a copy of your manuscript, or otherwise pushing said manuscript (gradually, considering the bulk and amount of pages) through the letterbox of each home.

>Subversive Advertising
Print your own books and then leave them in several popular bookstores in a way that will not draw attention to your doing so but may well lead to an Influential Shopper (i.e. someone within the publishing world, or perhaps an actor or simply a lot of people etc.) to notice it and appreciate your enthusiasm and creativity and ask the salesperson who this author is and how much the book costs. On being informed that the book is not in fact part of their stock, the Influential Shopper will then take it upon themselves to find out who this elusive, mysterious writer is and why they have not attained the fame you deserve based on the quality of this intriguing, stimulating book.

>Henry Darger Strategy
Live a life of loneliness and destitution. Patiently if bitterly await your death in the hope that your work will be "discovered" by a landlord or some distant relative somehow informed of your death who would then, like the landlord of Henry Darger, feel compelled to find a publisher for your work, with the story of your mysterious life allowing the publishers to describe you as an Outsider artists, too pure to be appreciated in his own time.

__________

I think that covers them all.

>>10566351

>>10566334
I was being a bit facetious, but the grain I believe in is that such art could be more impactful than previous art in the same way that real life experiences are. You become a lot more empathetic to the experiences of others when you see them first hand and they interact with you. So let's say you want to write some great literary experience about a man's life as impacted by his pursuit of mathematics. If people experience this like a film except they are inside the film and it's all very real, it could change them in the same way real life experiences do. It becomes all the more relevant when you are actually there, and could encourage people to improve themselves by giving them a richer experience. If somebody never had an environment that encouraged mathematics, but then they get to experience one, it could open up a whole new world for them. Whether or not you actually live as the man himself, or are simply a character in the story, or the story allows a generic "user" and then changes entirely based on your blank slate's actions, who can know atm.

That said this also has horrifying implications if it is abused but whatever this is all just mega speculation and largely depends on the limitations of the technology and the economic reality of how it is enjoyed, so who knows exactly how this thing will be experienced. Unless they can put them in every person's head on the globe. Spooky sci fi dystopia scenario ahoy!

>>10566349
Just use it responsibly like 3 hours once every evening or so. The frightening issue isn't turning everyone into Matrix zombies, it's the potential for scary propaganda/malevolent advertising practices.

>>10566382
he thinks people will learn to love being cheated into empathy
are you even human?

People who spend 12 hours a day on twitter and video games were never readers or consumers of classical music or anything decent in the first place anyway. They're the people who 30 years ago would have been tv addicted couch potatos. Nobody has ever been converted from a life of classical scholarship into a gaming addict, they're just different people.

>>10566321
Your idea of the average /lit/izen is way off, I fear. There are way more 17 year old holocaust deniers than there are graduates.

>>10565872
I think that the decreasement of people who read is just an illusion. As >>10565906 wrote, we do plenty of reading, yet the physicality of the reading is being lost. This can be seen on the fanfic websites, amateur writing on facebook and stuff; reading is becoming digital and domestic. Probably the discontent relies on the little acceptance that people who wants to be published find. I am very optimistic, though, that nowadays (at least in latinamerica) we are entering into a new set of amateur corpora of readings who little by little may get more curious about canonic writings.

Everybody in this thread sounds like Joe 'its just a mater of time before we're all in the matrix, look at the iPhone compared to ten years ago' Rogan.

>>10566422
what makes it cheating? they still have agency, if they choose to act in a positive way based on the thing they have been shown, then it seems good to me. I guess it depends on how deterministic you want to view the situation, if the stats say that x people changed after experiencing a given piece in the supermedium, were they "cheated", or was it simply an effective artistic expression that worked for the better? I don't see how it's any different than any other art, and it's not like all of these supermedium experiences need be pure propaganda, aesthetics can work mysterious wonders too. It might be that aesthetic experiences simply change people when they are this effective.

>>10566275
What do you mean by "high art"? Do you mean the more elaborate kind of pieces which relies on pompous devices? Nowadays, I think, we are just in a very critisized literary movement which is just all too popular and which annoys ortodoxical people or those who focuses on the " what" rather than the "how"

I know you guys don't want to hear this, but if you can write a publishable book, it is VERY easy to get published. Look at the critique threads here, I don't want to be a dick but they're mostly full of totally embarrassing sophomoric shite. Its more comfortable to tell yourself that an international cabal of jewish lesbian communists are keeping you down, but its just self-pity. WRITE A GOOD BOOK is all the 'how to get published advice you need'.

>>10566280
Also, research have shown that the level of comprehension and attention is negatively affected, and thus our appreciation is reduced... So it is not good

>>10565872
>product of MFA culture
What is "MFA"?

>>10566494
Master of Fine Arts. An increasingly competative 1 - 3 year course, usually self-funded though occasionally financed by scholarships etc, in which you study creative writing in a workshop-style class with fellow aspiring novelists under the tutelage of an experienced published writer.

>>10566370

Lmao. I love the devolution of probability here.

>>10565872
Isnt this a tranny that's friends with Natalie mars

>>10566493
>and thus our appreciation

Not necessarily. I find it far easier to engage with a work through audio. As in I experience what is being talked about more emotionally and care about the ideas being expressed.
I might not be better for "studying" but if its between just scanning over a text and inputting the information as a bored rote act and actually experiencing what the author intended you to experience then audio would be superior for you.

>>10566053
the end of western civilization :)

>>10565872
>How can literature retain a large audience

sheer numbers

if 99% of people don't give a fuck about literature the 1% is still millions of people

>>10566263
In either case I'm confident as far as fiction goes that consumption of audiobooks will eclipse consumption of books very soon if they haven't already

>>10565872
>johnnycashreference.jpg

>>10566120
Complete brainlet. The elite personally funded arts. Paintings paid for by the elite wouldn't be publically displayed, nor would symphonies commissioned by royalty be doled out to the plebs. The elite may've provided an end goal of "get a rich guy to pay you to write" but that can still happen.

It's the common man that ultimately directs entertainment, and in a global world in which entertainment has to appeal to a number of different cultures and speakers simultaneously books don't cut it. Film, music, and pop culture- easily digestible and constantly available -are what drives this new paradigm.

And I know you want to jerk yourself off about your bachelors of engineering from the university of phoenix, but STEM doesn't matter. The humanities don't matter. If you want to get rich today you create an ephemeral startup built to take advantage of the ravenous hunger of the plebs and then trash it or grow it into a bloated monster as soon as you make your money. This goes for everything from owning a food truck to making an app.

>>10565872
>author earnings are decreasing year upon year
doesnt matter. period in 20th century where many writers made good money was an unusual spike on an otherwise flat line of penury, probably just running parallel with the west's overall peak in per capita prosperity mid-late 20th century
>smaller publishing houses are shutting down or merging with larger ones
this is just a corollary to the first point
>>publishers are looking for women, LGTBQ and people of colour ahead of white males (not bait)
doesn't matter. there always have been and always will be hacks who follow fashion.
>more aspiring authors are taking a shortcut via increasingly competative MFA programs
so?
>Or will modern literature become irrelevant over time, or paper books go the way of tape, vinyl etc?
less relevant in the sense that novelists and fiction writers have less social status than they had in 20th C so yes but no to the part about "going the way of vinyl and tape" that's an apples and oranges comparison, reading cannot be replaced by gizmo upgrades. pure introspection of the intellect and imagination and the effect that that has on your inner being cannot be replaced by any combination of gizmo-based audiovisual sensory bombardment, ever. reading is fundamentally irreplaceable from a phenomenological standpoint

as for the le internet replacing everything meme, people read articles and social media posts and stuff but the real texture of literature comes from INDIVIDUAL GENIUS and that can't be replaced by the hivemind of anon memeing and shitposting. this makes me think of the old 'infinite chimps on typewriters producing the complete works of shakespeare' thought experiment - so far they fucking aren't. there isn't enough quality control on the internet because everyone is on it.

>>10566140
Your dogged subservience to mediocre and souless writing is repulsive.

>>10566659
*tips fedora*

>>10566663
*inserts cock in mouth*

>>10566480
>What do you mean by "high art"?
Google it you complete and utter fucktard

>>10566635
>comes from INDIVIDUAL GENIUS and that can't be replaced by the hivemind of anon memeing and shitposting

Which won't matter if no one actually reads them
Where are your original geniuses today?

Literature was never popular among the masses until the 19th century, and some of the best literature was obviously written before that. So it really doesn't matter how many people read or not.

>>10565872
it has its place in the screenwriting of films, TV series and video games.

>>10566711
The niggerification of the lower classes and the Judaic conversion of the upper class did not exist in those days though

>>10566710
houllebecq is pretty damned good

look, contemporary genius can be hard to find for all kinds of reasons. many great books went virtually unread for years or decades before being discovered. if you have any erudition you already know that

>>10566710
>Where are your original geniuses today?

Christopher Nolan my man

>>10566727
>many great books went virtually unread for years or decades before being discovered.

In the entire history of Literature sure. But it appears to me they were the exception not the rule. Most canonical writers of the last two centuries were famous in their lifetimes to at least some degree, certainly among literary circles

>>10565872
literature is for people who are loners and realize the blandness of teh technological terrors we have created.

People who pick up a 1000 page book or something very difficult to read clearly lack intimacy outside of literature.

We should be happy that less people read. It weeds out the mass market authors.

>>10566100
Thanks for the tip

>>10566232
This 100%, I'm currently developing my magnum opus that will be the first universally recognized masterpiece of the medium. I will bring 'video games' out from the depths of mediocrity and manchildren. Objective goals and rewards must be purged to remove the disgusting filth of lowlifes using it as a form of shallow accomplishment

>>10565872
>How can literature retain a large audience in the age of blablablabla
It can't, and it shouldn't. Literature has been a cancer for our brains for at least three thousand years. It's time for it to die.

>>10565872
mommy mommy milky milky etc.

>>10565872
How has nobody brought up the fact she has a feminine penis yet?

bump

>>10566168
>apothesis of metal

yeah sure whatever kid.

>>10567036
wrong board m8

SOMEONE PLEASE POST A VIDEO OF >HER GETING FUCKED IN THE ASS. I'M TIRED OF HER AND NATALIE "MAN-FACE AND MAN-ARSE" MARS ACTING NAUGHTY. I NEED TO SE >HER GETING RAILED AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>10567222
see >>10566100

>>10565872
>johnnycashreference
Now I get it!!

>>10566100
God fucking dammit!

Just give it time. After winter comes spring.

>>10567196
gay

>>10566053
jazz

>>10569463
More like nataliemaneverything, he's fucking disgusting

>>10570308
I agree. Do you have any reccs for good (cute) ones?

>>10565872
Literature won't die, at least not on this century
But paper books will and they get replaced by ebooks or something else over time
Some people give paintings and theater plays as examples, but I don't see it getting this niche. It's far too broad and versatile to "die"

>>10570318
Lanita Hot
Bruna Butterfly
Sarina Valentina
Domino Presley
Candy
Beatricy Velmont

>>10570334
Thanks.

>>10566717
Media doesn't die, just the forms of consumption
hearing only experiences were first covered by concerts, but then replaced by home/protable playback
viewing was paintings only first, today we look at thousands of pictures and paintings without even realizing it
viewing and listening experiences were first theatre plays, now cinema and home video
interactive (vidya) is very new, VR will most likely overtake it
reading experiences were first written into stone, then parchment, then paper, soon digitally

Of course none of it really "died", just the mainstream way of experiencing them got replaced over time

>>10567030
10/10 copy pasta

>>10570334
Wtf those are all men! This board is way tooooo liberal for me. HOLY....

>>10565872
Imagine living a life as a man with that face LMAO

>>10570429
not copy pasta anon, I'm serious. If not myself than who else?

>>10565891

audiobooks are far superior to reading anyway.

>>10566168
very redpilled. well done.

You're assuming that good literature can only be good if it sells. And that's where you're wrong.

>>10571613
name me a famous literature where the author didn't have at least one best seller? goethe only was able to write his autistic "look at how many greek references i can do!" bullshit after werther became a meme

>>10565872
Is there anything gayer than a trap? They take the mental illness of being homosexual and multiply it by a gorillion.

>>10565872
You're all reactionists and, most probably and thankfully, wrong. The book industry has very very slowly grown over the years, independent book-sellers are growing in number, and revenues are up overall. The industry is profitable. You people just bitch and don't bring a single number to the table, this is why no one believes the humanities
tiny url this: y9x9t2yl

>>10571648
Book-reading is becoming relatively less frequent, but the number of people still doing it is staying the same. You may argue that niche, patrician literature, is becoming less frequently read and you're correct. But it, volumetrically, which is all that matters for sustaining a constant output of books, is rising. You have to remember that agents, publishers, and printers all want to publish genius and will do it at a loss to promote their name.

>>10571648
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/15/literary-fiction-in-crisis-as-sale-drop-dramatically-arts-council-england-reports

>>10571648
Just because people are buying books doesn't mean they're actually reading them

>>10565872
Start learning how to make visual novels. Its a stop gap that will start filling the empty pop lit space. EVNs will increasingly find success.

>>10571700
Unimportant for sustainability of literary traditions, the money feeds the system, not people's eyeballs
>>10571688
compacted trash
The title wasn't equivocated except by statements and a droop in general fiction in the UK in print is not substantive
bad

>>10565891
Ironic that the epic poems you mention were the original audio books. we're living in the age of the blog. short stories woven together on very specific topics are what people spend time and money on.

>>10566168
>apotheosis of metal
Rock in general is a dead genre by now. People are only repeating over and over the same shit. Proof of this is the ridiculous subdivision and categorization of subagentes, each small subgênero having a very specific sound and style the bands conform to. Nothing out of the ordinary can ever come out of rock music again. Its over.

>>10571982
*subgenre

>>10571792
>your figures don't count because I say so

Ok dude

>>10572019
The figures are irrelevant to the point. Will literary novels continue to exist as an art form? Your statistic is an incomplete picture and does not provide supporting evidence that would imply it is relevant (such as 80% of literary fiction revenue is from paperback). I am positing yes, and everyone else is making grandiose statements without a shred of substantive evidence to illustrate their claims

>>10566053
>Rite of Spring by 1913, so we're already years behind schedule for some redefining masterpiece.

"those" kinds of masterpieces are dead and aren't going to appear anymore. The last one was probably the Turangalila symphony and I think some people would debate that one

>>10565891
Seems like when it comes to storytelling it goes...

>Epic Poem
>Theater
>Novel
>???

and the obvious next form would be film. Problem is film requires so many people that it can never be as singular a vision as a playwright, a poet, or a novelist's work. Sure, there are auteurs but their characters are still interpreted by actors, even if the director is also the scriptwriter.

There are exceptions to this as well, like Paradise Lost, an epic poem, being produced while everyone else was focusing on the play as a story format. Where will the next great storyteller be?

>>10572163
>Where will the next great storyteller be?

me desu, give it a couple more years and you'll hear the foremost artist of our generation mentioning /lit/

>>10572163
reminded me of Robert Bresson, the god among filmmakers, an auteur's auteur.

>>10565872
Shakespeare wrote plays because they were the most popular thing at the time and where he could make the most money.

>>10572163
I've said it multiple times here to anyone who'll listen. The internet is a medium/artform itself.

>>10566232
Davoo stop posting on /lit/

>>10572520
Dissapointing to hear. I want art to be better than the internet.

>>10565872
J-J-J-J-JIZZIBELLS

BETTER CALL JESUS THIS SEMEN DEMON WILL BE SPURTIN MAD SEED AT THE FLICK OF AN EYELASH, SAVE YOURSELVES

>>10565872
>mfw she's really cute and i would want to date her

>>10565872
pop literature has always been always trash
academic literatur will prevail
also if right wingers read books more white males would be published since publishing followes the same basic capitalistic rules as everything else ( inb4 it´s tha joos that push their agenda!!!!!!!!)

>>10572940
It literally is the Jews pushing their agenda. There's an infographic floating around. They establish themselves in positions of authority and abuse that authority to convince people white males needn't be read.

>>10573220
>there’s an infographic floating around

I know pol doesn’t read, but this is a new low even for you

>>10573220
thank you for taking the bait and proving my point

>>10565891
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-kanyewest/proud-non-reader-kanye-west-turns-author-idUSTRE54P5L820090526

What the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away.

>>10573279
ROFFFFFFFFFFFFLLLLLLLLL

>>10565872
>>author earnings are decreasing year upon year

To what extent have average author earnings been dragged down by Createspace and print-on-demand, i.e., single digit sales of Granny Poopypanty's memoirs of a childhood in Minnesota? Do you even have a reliable sauce for average earnings? If so, pls share.

>>10572108
>everyone else is making grandiose statements without a shred of substantive evidence to illustrate their claims

Welcome to /lit/, friend!

>>10572917
>him

>>10573753
>Most writers earn less than £600 a year, survey reveals

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jan/17/writers-earn-less-than-600-a-year

>>10565929
kek

>>10565891
this. art dies because it gives nothing good. People start to read usefull books instead of demoralizinfg jew fiction to pose as an intellectual (i know how to read guys!!!111!)

I unironically think that YouTube will be the next form of mainstream media consumption. Maybe it already is. I wouldn't exactly call it an art form because that would be an insult to every artist ever, but I'm sure that there's enough people who consider it to be one. I assume that if you only took the demographics age ~30 and below you would already see youtube replacing tv, books, etc. It simply is the perfect medium for the current generations because of the following reasons: 1) Most videos are short as fuck (sub 10 minutes). This perfectly fits the attention spans of today's dopamine stuffed first world population. 2) Illusion of choice: youtube makes you think that you're in total control of what you're watching (and in theory that is true) however the algorithm is so advanced that it can basically dictate you in the direction it wants to, and you'll even like it. With autoplay it's become even more brainwashing than tv ever was. 3) Comment section giving a false impression of socialization and an in-built echochamber at the same time. For most videos, you'll see almost no-one disagreeing over the video makers' opinion. Those who do are censored either by the video maker itself via comment deletion or via down votes. So you'll be there in your personal echo chamber, perfectly fitting every video you ever watch. 4) fact denial and assumption of the subjective truth. objectivity today is less valued than it was since modernist times. if people watch a youtube video and the narrator sounds even half-way intelligent, people will automatically believe him and in most cases even form a community around him, believing and defending everything and anything he claims. (see: sargon of akkad, etc.) 5) oversimplification. people think they know everything about a certain subject after watching a 5 minutes youtube video on it. we used to watch some "educational" videos in class and the post-modernist ironic self-referencing delivery on the content while not stating that the subject could be any more in depth whatsoever, mixed with the assumption that everything about the subject is said in the video almost made me puke. the amount of people i know (or read comments of online) that believe robots are gonna take all our jobs in the next decade because of 1 (one) cgp grey video they watched is staggering. any arguments against this are instantly deflected by just denying the intelligence of the person with another opinion.

I honestly am sad that DFW killed himself because his social commentary would be needed today more than ever, but at the same time I can understand why he did it and that he wouldn't bear living 24 hours in todays world.

>>10565891
Epic poems have died but literature itself has never died. Neither did the art form of storytelling. Painting still exists and so do theatre and your opinion of them suggests a misinformed idea of both.

Genres can die but I challenge you to name a single art form that died. I don't think it ever happened.

Whats the precursor to cinema? Oh thats right, a script.
>writing

Whats the precursor to vr and games? A document.
>thats right, more writing

>>10565872
By offering What only literature can offer.
If You don't know What that is You need to read more.

>>10574185
Literature iS nOT meaNT To oFFer FAGs who PUt CAPital letteRS At The wRONg PLAce

>>10574323
I Don't Give A Fuck About You And Your Arbitrary Capitalization Rules.
tldr: Eat a Bag of Cocks

>>10574329
GRAMMAr is NOT arBITrary and SO is SOELLING oUy fuckigN AGGOTF yaw eht yb BOG A EAT OF BICKS

>>10574141
>oversimplification. people think they know everything about a certain subject after watching a 5 minutes youtube video on it. we used to watch some "educational" videos in class and the post-modernist ironic self-referencing delivery on the content while not stating that the subject could be any more in depth whatsoever, mixed with the assumption that everything about the subject is said in the video almost made me puke.

holy shit this, if I have to see one more video named "(enter topic) explained in 5 minutes" I'm going to explode. Just knowing some fuckwit watched the video and genuinely thinks they have a proper understanding of the subject only furthers my distaste for my peers, I even have professors putting those videos on in class.

>>10574141
>any arguments against this are instantly deflected by just denying the intelligence of the person with another opinion.
Did you actually get into an argument with someone over this?

>all these nerds discussing gay shit
>no more pics or sauce on the >girl
Shameful

>>10566053
>>10566053
Absolute music isn't dead. It just sounds different:

https://youtu.be/GOyIs9gSCRs

She's toured with Sunn O)).

I would argue GSY!BE would be absolute music as well. Every post-X genre is sort of like this I've found, at least the instrumental variants.

>>10566053
>>10566053
Absolute music isn't dead. It just sounds different:

https://youtu.be/GOyIs9gSCRs

She's toured with Sunn O)).

I would argue GSY!BE would be absolute music as well. Every post-X genre is sort of like this I've found, at least the instrumental variants.

>>10574881
Sue lightning hes some mentally ill turbo faggot with a tiny dick and disgusting bolt ons.

>>10565872
Words are just finding their way on a new medium.

Novels will never die because people like the resonance and the adventure they refuse to take themselves. Also, even though we are inherantly lazy we do require intellectual stimulation - which writng provides.

There has never really been any money in any form of art.

The unspoken still don't express themselves. They still want others to do that for them, sort of.

It is just that people can't be fucked too many people are too tired. That is all. It has nothing to do with cultural breakdown or anything like that.

>>10566053
>>10566053
Absolute music isn't dead. It just sounds different:

https://youtu.be/GOyIs9gSCRs

She's toured with Sunn O)).

I would argue GSY!BE would be absolute music as well. Every post-X genre is sort of like this I've found, at least the instrumental variants.

>>10565872
I can't speak about novels specifically, but I don't think literature and writing as a whole will ever go away.
There are certain topics that I just can't imagine being explored in any other way, even though in theory film should fill the roll of literature. Imagine an in-depth philosophical exploration done in a movie. It's possible, but not ideal. There are subtleties to the way we read books that makes it am efficient form of communication of ideas. It's the reason why a lot of people, including myself, really don't enjoy audiobooks: you experience it in such a different way, and your brain processes it differently.
Besides, writing is the basis for most of the other forms of media, and I doubt that will change. For every film, there are countless pages of scripts, brainstorming, screenplay drafts, and notes. Doing all of that visually will never be more efficient, even when technology catches up. We think in words, so we record those words.
tl;dr general audiences maybe not but books will never die, so we can continue jerking ourselves off ovee obscure writers and esoteric nonsense, because since when has /lit/ given a shit about "large audiences?"

>>10565906
>Obviously the huge influx of trash literature is a huge turnoff.
there's always been shit art, the difference between fine literature and shit is that sometimes the classics will be remembered. literature isn't going anywhere. it's not a format as suggested in the op comparable to vinyl or tape. paradoxically, i remember reading somewhere that books are being read now more than ever, due to digital copies and audiobooks. sure, most people read john green and other shitty authors, but true innovative literature is ahead of time and only enjoyed by smaller groups which enjoy the "hipsterdom" instead of spreading the message

>>10565891
>>10566168
>>10566545
>>10575138

As several people have already pointed out, audiobooks will almost certainly play a large role in the industry in the foreseeable future. Just like music or podcasts, people can listen to them while doing other things; the fact that audiobooks can be listened to, without disrupting someone's daily routine, will be the key to their success.

>>10575001
> le "ethnic name" + "english noun" music
No thanks.

Who cares. There are enough good books already, more than anyone could read in his lifetime.

>>10574104
>Most writers earn less than £600 a year, survey reveals

So you a relying not on publisher stats, but on self-reported numbers from the "2014 Digital Book World and Writer's Digest Author Survey". Okaaaay...

As suspected, numbers skewed by self-pubbed trash. Thanks for playing!

>>10574885
just soulseeked the shit out of Gudnadottir, ty for that