/lit/ - Literature

>The best books on Ancient Rome
>recommended by Tom Holland

https://fivebooks.com/best-books/ancient-rome-tom-holland/

I've been reading The Frogs and The Persians as a start to get into ancient drama. The Frogs was tolerable, but The Persians felt like a somewhat drab retelling of historical events that I already knew from Herodotus etc.

Just finished wheelock's Latin. Now to struggle for 2-5 years gaining fluency of reading and acquiring vocabulary.

Also reading Greek history

>>10555085
Read The Wasps

I'm making a pretty cool timeline poster for Greek history from the Trojan war to the death of Alexander the great.
Might make smaller offshoots for the major wars too.

>>10555182
Very nice, post it when you're done

I saw a very silly post the other day comparing the cold war to a conflict between Western Rome (US) and Eastern Rome (USSR). To play along with the joke, would it not be accurate to say that it is actually a continuation of the Trojan War, as Romans descend from Aeneas? Therefore, Troy finally found victory in the triumph of the US over the USSR.

>>10555182
I would be excited to see it. I always thought an idea for a great HBO miniseries would be the 5th century Greeks. I figure you could get six or seven seasons out of it and go from the Ionian Revolt to the trial of Socrates. I know they would bungle it though.

>>10555208
I wish Russia annexed Anatolia early

I think we should travel back in time

>>10555235
same

Are there any good texts written during republican Rome that went over the role of consuls, praetors, how old one had to be to be senator, how much property one had to own etc. ?
Also, anyone else really admire Cato the younger?

>>10555299
Polybius and Casius Dio

>>10555087
Is Wheelock's the preferred textbook of this thread? I'm getting back into Latin. I took it as an undergrad but I've lost touch with some of what I've learned.

>>10555373

As far as traditional textbooks go, Wheelock's is unsurpassed I think.

Some of us also like Lingua Latina which aims to teach through a more 'natural' method.

>>10555373
It's my preferred textbook. I feel the pace and structure was good. Clear enough to understand all the grammar rules but difficult enough that I never got complacent. The exercises were very helpful.

I prefer the classical way of learning ancient languages to the "learn like a babby" method.

>>10555194
>>10555225
Will post when I'm done. It's based on J.B. Bury's textbook a history of Greece to the death of Alexander the great fleshed out with Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Arrian, Quintus Curtius, Diodorus Siculus, Justin and Plutarch.

Some people find Wheelock's too difficult. For these I recommend Shelmerdine, but it isn't as good.

This book looks like a lot of fun.
I want to read it.

>>10555373
I started with Gwynne's Latin and just pounded out conjugations and declensions for a month or two before starting wheelock.
Gwynne has a good way to help you memorize those basics which will be the base of your Latin. If you don't have them by heart you will struggle.

The only downside was that Gwynne lists noun forms as nom, voc, acc, gen, dat, abl while wheelock lists them as nom, gen, dat, acc, abl, voc.

>>10555085
Wouldn’t recommend Aristophanes as a start to drama. Try Aeschylus, Prometheus Bound; or Sophocles, Ajax; or Euripides, Alcestis/Hippolytus/Heracleidae.

>For me, one of the great pleasures in life is finding someone who will be persuaded to read The Iliad aloud to you.

>>10554715
I'm currently reading Plato's Parmenides. I'm about to read Homer.

Should I start with the Illiad or the Odyssey, and which translation (yes, I am a pleb who only has basic Latin skills and no Greek)? I was considering Emily Wilson's translation, but I thought I should probably have read a well recommended translation by a man first, so I can appreciate what she is actually bringing to the table.

Also, I've read Hesiod's Theogony and Works & Days, should I read the Catalogue of Women or no?

Also, also, where do I begin with Greek?

>>10555664
What a cutie. Would def read the Illiad aloud to her with the deep, silky voice of a young Barry White.

>>10555696

>I'm currently reading Plato's Parmenides.
One of the most significant dialogues. It has some fun fanservice too (young Socrates).

>Should I start with the Illiad or the Odyssey
It doesn't matter too much. I'd start with the Illiad since the events in the Illiad happen before those of the Odyssey.

>which translation
Have a look at my picture.
Any of the four will serve you well.
Does one sound much better than the others to you?

>Also, I've read Hesiod's Theogony and Works & Days, should I read the Catalogue of Women or no?
If you feel you must.
It isn't especially long. The thing is fragmented.

>Also, also, where do I begin with Greek?
Learning the language?
Athenaze is alright.
I like it because it has you reading passages almost from the very start.

>>10555746

IL.16.3 δάkρυα θερμὰ χέων ὥς τε kρήνη μελάνυδρος,
IL.16.4 ἥ τε kατ' αἰγίλιπος πέτρης δνοφερὸν χέει ὕδωρ.

Here are the lines in case any of you want to try translating them yourself.

>>10555746
Thank you, anon.

>Illiad happens before the Odyssey
See, I did not know that. Thank you.

>Does one sound much better than the others to you?
I like the sound of the Lattimore translation, but any clue as to which is the most literal? I get the impression Lombardo is taking the most poetic license of the four - which I prefer to avoid.

>Fragmented & Short
Good to know.

>Athenaze
Perfect. Much appreciated.

>>10555995
Lattimore is probably the most accurate translation you can get, which is frankly impressive considering that (in my opinion at least) it's one of the best translations even if you ignore accuracy.

>>10555746
>>10555995
>Athenaze
If you're self studying you might want to look in to the JACT books instead of Athenaze. They use the same methodology but JACT actually has a guidebook for self-learners that includes things like exercise answer keys, which you wont have access to with Athenaze (unless they've changed that recently).

What's the consensus on Xenophon's accounts of the Persian war? Worth reading as a companion to Herodotus, or just fanservice and Persiaboo wankery?
I'm not looking forward to reading both Thucydides AND another account of the Persian War before moving on to Alexander.

I only read Byzantine Greek, sorry.

>>10554715
Hear my supplication o' ascended masters of /lit/! Booklet here, i prithee for your guidance.
Not having read any of the classics hitherto i wish to change this posthaste.
I know that it is the Greeks which i should begin my journey with but what Greek work specifically should i start my literal journey with?

>>10556820
Read modern(ish) books on Greek history and culture, particularly mythology. Then dip into the Iliad and Odyssey, then Herodotus, then get into drama with Aeschylus and Sophocles, then read Thucydides. After that you'll have three choices. Follow the history with Xenophon, follow drama with Euripides and Aristophanes, or start your travel into philosophy with Plato. If you're looking to do the Entire Western Canon, I would go with the playwrights.

>>10556820
Required reading:
Iliad, Odyssey
Plato: Crito, Phaedo, Apologia
Plato: The Republic
Aristotle: Nichomachean Ethics, Metaphysics

From there you have a lot of branching paths:
History - Herodotus, Xenophon, Thucydides
Philosophy - 4 Schools:
Platonists: Plato's expanded works
Peripatetics: Aristotle's expanded works
Epicureanism: Epicurus
Stoicism: Epictetus
Mythology - Hesiod's Theogony, expanded works on Homer
Drama - Oedipus cycle, Aeschylus, various others

Don't ascribe yourself to a strict reading plan, read by association of interests.

>>10556416
Xenophon writes about the party of the Peloponnesian war that Thucydides doesn't. Its like a sequel to Thucydides, it even starts with something like "and then after these events" meaning what Thucydides wrote. That's xenophontis hellenica.

He also writes about the 10,000 Greek mercenaries that went into persia to aid Cyrus in trying to overthrow Artaxerxes, and their journey out of Persia.

He was there for both and they are first person accounts. Indispensable in my opinion.

He doesn't write about the same Persian war as Herodotus.

>>10556820
Divide your free time, (I mean of your vacant hours) into three portions. Give the principal to History, the other two, which should be shorter, to Philosophy and Poetry.
First read Goldsmith's history of Greece. This will give you a digested view of that field. Then take up antient history in the detail, reading the following books, in the following order: Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophontis Hellenica, Xenophontis Anabasis, Arrian, Quintus Curtius, Diodorus Siculus, Justin. This shall form the first stage of your historical reading, and is all I need mention to you now. The next, will be of Roman history. From that, we will come down to modern history. In Greek and Latin poetry, you have read or will read at school, Virgil, Terence, Horace, Anacreon, Theocritus, Homer, Euripides, Sophocles. Read also Milton's Paradise Lost, Shakspeare, Ossian, Pope's and Swift's works, in order to form your style in your own language. In morality, read Epictetus, Xenophontis Memorabilia, Plato's Socratic dialogues, Cicero's philosophies, Antoninus, and Seneca. In order to assure a certain progress in this reading, consider what hours you have free from the school and the exercises of the school.

Thomas Jefferson's letter to his nephew, August 1785

>>10556972
that's actually a great reading list, Jefferson proving himself /lit/ as fuck

>>10556838
>>10556914
>>10556972
Okay many thanks
>what hours you have free from the school and the exercises of the school.
Not in any school right now, work instead. Just doing this for fun and self improvement.

>Reading De rerum natura

It's spooky stuff

>>10556820
what >>10556914
said was required plus the presocratics, specially heraclitus, even Stalin addresses him in his book "historical and dialectical materialism". definitely relevant

also, i'd reccomend you to start with guenon's works on hinduism, because the greeks drank so much of the orientals, namely in metaphysics

>>10558795
literally epicurean philosophy for roman plebs who couldn't read greek

>>10559218

I'm impressed in how he condensed the essence of Epicurus' teaching. He made it beautiful too. Epicurus had a certain reputation for being a bad writer.

I'd like to share this with you guys.
I think you'll like it

>Lovers blinded by desire overlook flaws and even see them as blessings
>Lucretius (De Rerum Natura 4.1141)

>>10559252
>the pursy female with protuberant breasts / she is "like Ceres when the goddess gave / Young Bacchus suck";
Mommyfags btfo

Why does Pliny say Egypt didnt exist in Homers days?
Sounds like bs to me.

Th..thanks publisher

>In the original, The Iliad is both archaic and fast-moving. The English translator has to make a choice between replicating one or the other.

>>10560533
>Iliad
>Fast moving

Tell that to my enemy's father's father's grandfather (on his mothers side) who was once friends with my friend's father's mother's father's best friend (the son of the son of Zeus with a mortal who was the wife of my cousin's great grandfather) was once a xenia to my great-great-grandfather's friend's concubine's father's wetnurse's master.

>>10560770

Was he the guy who came arrived with the Laconian fleet which contained 28 well timbered hollow ships?

>>10560770
>>10561075
>being such a humongous fucking pleb that you don't appreciate the Catalog of Ships
Git tha fuck back to your reading charts

Anyways, can anyone clarify the location of Epidaurus as stated in the Selincourt translation of The Histories? There are three historically Greek towns I can find reference to that use/have used the name, one in Argolis and two further up the coast into western Albania; the footnotes I have say that Herodotus' Epidaurus was on the mainland opposite Corcyra (Corfu) and I don't see how the geography works out.

Given that Periander of Corinth was said to have warred against Procles (his father-in-law) and conquered Epidaurus, I'm assuming the footnote was a clerical error and Herodotus means the Peloponnesian Epidaurus.

>friendly reminder that Darius became King of Persia because he paid a stablehand to jack off his horse

>start reading Phaedo
BORN TO DIE / BODY IS A FUCKALL / Free My Soul 1989 / I am trash man / 410,757,864,530 DEAD PHILOSOPHERS

>>10560770
Good scene

>>10560770
I was on the edge of my seat at that part.

>>10561871
>>being such a humongous fucking pleb that you don't appreciate the Catalog of Ships
>Git tha fuck back to your reading charts
My post wasn't even about the catalog of ships, my friend. It was about the battle scenes.

>>10563954
Okay
>shitting on the Akhaean Vietnam War Memorial

>tfw I have to struggle with Thucydides another day

At least it can't get more boring

Starting the Ody tomorrow
Is it as genealogical as the Ily?

>>10564071
No, the Odyssey is actually enjoyable.

>>10564071
>>10564074
>dude muh fukkin suitors is better than greek niggers fucking each other up big style

>>10564083
The Iliad would be better if you cut out like half of its content.

>>10564091
You would be better if we cut out like half of you.

>>10564102
Well I probably would be more interesting.

Properzio is boring

>>10564083
Don't get me wrong, reading about Ares being a little whiny bitch, Hera slutting it up, everyone dunking on Paris and a bunch of shadows over eyes was fun
But I'm a pleb, so knowing about the genealogy of every thracian was a bit boring

>>10564120
The geneology is critical to the work though; The Iliad was the backbone of the Hellenic nationalism that inspired the later concept of 'Greece' as we know it (that and Alexander, of course).

A friend of mine's taking a class on the Epics and I can't wait to introduce him to this wild shit.

>>10564126
I understand the historical significance. It was so that people could read it and say: "Hey! That dude was my great-great-great-great-great-granduncle! I think".
But desu it's a resource that doesn't hold up to the times.

Also, it's hard to define it as nationalism. More like the concept of Hellas and the Hellenic world.

>>10564136
That's a simplified version of it; the Homeric geneology and the historical connections between disparate city-states it alludes to became the foundation of Greek history in its own time.

Am I a brainlet if I hate reading the Iliad? I'm only on chapter 2 or whatever, it's utterly boring

>>10564154
People usually prefer either the Iliad or Odyssey, but Book II is not far enough in to make that call

>majority of people in the thread haven't gotten past Homer yet

Is this one of those cases where 1% of the general has read 99% of material collectively shared by all posters?

>>10564179
Never read the Illiad myself, and I don't want to either given what I hear about it.

I almost exclusively read Greek philosophy.

>>10555085
>The Persians felt like a somewhat drab retelling of historical events that I already knew

if all you're getting from the persians is that xerxes lost a battle or whatever then you need to pay more attention to what you're reading because there's a lot of shit going on in there. is it really so obvious and unsurprising to you, for example, that victors would tell a story of their victory by censoring themselves out of it down to the last name?

>>10564200
>being this much of a pleb

>>10564179
I've tackled Iliad, Odyssey, The Republic, Epictetus via Arrian and am working through Herodotus now
Not looking forward much to reading dramas and tragedies though

>>10564216
Is there someone else who's going for completionism like me? mostly completionism, don't want to read 8 billion words of neoplatonist philosophy unless it helps with Apostolic theology

>>10564065
just read the good bits bro. A lot of what Thucydides has to offer will only ever be relevant to the professional historian, a lot of which probably won't be of any use to the casual reader

>>10564247
I can't tell the good bits apart from the rest until I read them

>>10564224
i'm certainly adding shit to my to-read list faster than i read it. for attic tragedy i thought i'd just read a few plays, then i decided to read everything and now here i am reading all of aeschylus for a second time because i wanted to check out some different translations.

>>10564224
I'm definitely going for the 4 Schools, major Historians (Herodotus, Xenophon maybe, Thucydides and Arrian's account of Alexander), and Platonist and Parapatetic Philosophy
That's before I start in on Rome, though
>>10556914
Is my reading list basically

I have some interest in Gnostic esoterocism and the early Church though so I will be boning up on neoPlatonism

>>10564258
the good bits are the speeches and the detailed accounts of key events like the plague and major battles. just skim all the shit about how many hoplites sailed where on how many triremes.

>>10564264
>just skim all the shit about how many hoplites sailed where on how many triremes.
Fuck you

>>10554715

I read the ancient city by fustel de coulanges, and will now read the world of odysseus by moses finley

Feels good.

>>10564289
you quoted the wrong post. your eyes must be tired from counting all the hoplites.

>>10564299
No I just wanted to give myself more (You)s subconsciously

>>10564279
>Skip the logistics.
Now listen here...

>>10562053
Source?

Is anyone here an unironic Hellenic pagan? I am, and I'd like to know more

>>10564564
Herodotus Book III, the horse competition following the Plot against the Magii

Why do you some of you idiots even bother with the Greeks if you're bored by them, or only read the "good parts"? Is it all just to have a sense of accomplishment that you've read them, despite not taking away anything valuable from their writings?

Anyways, I'm starting to read Nagy's The Best of the Achaeans.

What's the best book to get an overview of ancient Greece before I dive into the literature?

>>10559218
>doesn't recognize the importance of Lucretius' poetic project and the beauty of his pentameters
>thinks it was for plebs
I bet you read DRN in English

>>10564687
Plebs gonna pleb.

>>10564687
>only read the "good parts"? Is it all just to have a sense of accomplishment that you've read them, despite not taking away anything valuable from their writings?

you have this backwards. it's specifically because i read these things for a purpose and not for an abstract "accomplishment" that i skip some parts. i'm interested in the speeches on political power in thucydides but not in the logistics of hoplite transport so i read one and skip the other. it's the idiots raised on video games that will tell you it "doesn't count" unless you've read the whole thing, like an achievement that won't unlock until the bar is full.

>>10564318
yeah i used to think this stuff was useless until this hot neighbor of mine needed to move some hoplites from lesbos to samos and she didn't know how many triremes she'd need. if it wasn't for my knowledge of thucydides she'd be in a pickle! she was so grateful for my help that she invited me in for some coffee afterwards and let's just say she won't be going back to lesbos anytime soon!

>>10555235
>travel back to ancient Rome
>be poor prole
>get sick
>die

>>10564913
>>be poor prole
>>get sick
>>die

and this is different from modern america how

>>10564913
>learn modern Latin
>travel back in time to Rome
>get laughed at for speaking like a retard and trying to prophecy future events

>>10564937
It's not in Rome, duh.

>>10564871
What a trite and ignorant position
Read what you want to read, but hush the fuck up about what other people do, okay, sweetie?

>>10564815
Probably The World of Homer

>>10564913
>get to spend some time in ancient Rome AND get to enjoy the sweet release of death
What more could I ask for?

>>10564937
I'm not denying that, glad i don't live in the fascist states of amuttica

>>10564815
Pretty much any decent history of Ancient Greece should be fine. Then there may be some other books that might be worth looking in to based on what you're actually planning on reading. Though to be honest, in my opinion, the best way to get into the Greeks is to just start reading the texts.

>>10564946
thanks for the non-response, faggot. you really taught me a lesson there by saying absolutely nothing but in a really bitchy way.

>>10565011
shhh, why don't you read Harry Potter and the Magic Talking Choo-Choo Train to calm down, sweetie?

What's a good read on the osmosis of Eastern spiritual beliefs into Greek society? Analytical texts are fine but I'd prefer if they can directly reference some primary sources.

>>10565155
and now you're just making a clown of yourself to evade participating in a conversation, refusing to commit to any actual opinion out of fear of ridicule. you're not tricking anyone. everyone can see it's just basic cowardice.

>>10564937
Internet.

What objective value is there in reading the limited viewpoint of ancient white dudes who can only present arguments using thinly veiled straw men?

>>10565228
got the internet, lost the pederasty. it's a wash.

>>10565229
What objective value is there in reading the limited viewpoint of contemporary racefluid xirs who can only present arguments using thinly veiled straw men?

>>10564815
>What's the best book to get an overview of ancient Greece before I dive into the literature?

Get a quick read to get you up to speed. You can fill in the gaps later with more specialized books.

I'd get something like this.

>>10564815
A history of Greece to the death of Alexander the great by J.B. Bury