/lit/ - Literature

>>10523491
is there any good Protestant Theology

>>10523491
one of those is heresy

>>10523491
Protestantism is decentralized and praises autonomy. Catholicism is centralized and praises tradition. Protestant ideologies have led to the heresy of antinomianism and naturalist theology, yet Catholic ideologies and mysticism have led to emasculated, liberal theology that stem from immobility and concern with secular ethics. Overall, both have been corrupted and have lost the core teachings of the NT. Just get a good Bible translation and read the church fathers, than come to your own conclusions.
>>10523530
Try reading Barth, Kierkegaard, or Tozer

>>10523630
Meant to type *then

Check out Epistle to the Romans by Barth and The Present Age by Kierkegaard

Protestantism values faith and effort, Catolicism values good deeds. Also, Protestantism gives less value to iconography, which killed off the Renaissance.

>>10523491
>Memes aside

But how else can we communicate?

>>10523630
>read the church fathers
Are those figures or a specific work? Do you have any reccs for Christian history books?

protestants worship the bible and scoff the tradition without realizing that the only thing that can give any credibility to the bible as we know it today is the tradition.

Christianity and the trinity in particular are complete nonsense anyways.

>>10523657
One of the Armageddon sideshows will be a denominational meme-off judged by God himself.

protestantism is marked by a separation of the authority of the Church from that of God and the Trinity itself. Whereas Catholics believe that the Clergy, and especially the Pope, are divine agents of God blessed with insight which is necessary for the salvation of the Soul, Protestants widely believe that the keys to Salvation were granted by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, and so long as devotion is paid to God in the form of the Trinity, Salvation is within the reach of every individual.

Protestantism also does away with several elements of Catholic and Orthodox biblical revisionism, especially the secular laws and practices put in place by the Catholic Church during the middle ages. Protestantism also rejects the Catholic and Orthodox apocrypha, and Church doctrines which arise therein.

>>10523657
If you study the World map of religions, you will discover that almost all Protestant countries are successful, while Catholic ones struggle politically and economically.

>>10523698
But that's because Protestantism won the meme wars in most European countries

>>10523698
One might counter that by saying Catholics are more likely than Protestants to take the words of Christ seriously.

>Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

>>10523491
>Christianity has a belief in a universal Church that is of Christ. Catholicism believes in the universal Church of Christ as a visible institution, that institution being the papacy. Protestantism believes in the universal Church of Christ as an invisible spiritual unity between believing Christians, hence why there are numerous different Protestant sects but they don’t believe every other sect is going to Hell.
>Christianity teaches that salvation comes from grace. Catholicism teaches that grace comes from faithful and continuous working of the sacraments. Protestantism teaches grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone
Those are the biggest and most distinct differences.

>>10523698
>Successful
By what metric? GDP?

By definition then, they will burn eternally in hell. Congrats you black bastards.

>>10523670
Anything that isn’t in the Biblical eras, isn’t in the medieval eras, and isn’t a non-Christian philosophy work is from the Church Fathers.

>>10523724
Basically, just focus yourself on the “Pre-Nicene writings” and the “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers” sections. There’s are two great collections called “The Ante-Nicene Fathers” and “The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers” that are available (online) for free from the CCEL.

>>10523706
Catholic parties are, more often than not, lackeys of old money

>>10523706
Catholic parties are usually the ones more colluded with crime. Take the DC in Italy, for example.

>>10523698
because protestantism rode the wave of 'muh equality'

>>10523491
Catholicsm = fatty bullshit
Protestantism = diet bullshit

>>10523706
>t. Anon who fundamentally misunderstand that one of the primary movers of the reformation was the catholic, particularly the papacy's, practice of hordeing wealth and the practice of indulgences, catholics literally believing they could buy their way into heaven.
Like, did you pay attention at all?

>>10523798
I swear are all catholics retards? I keep hearing this from you people because you saw some internet meme with a Swedish female pastor. Protestantism rode the wave of individualism. Catholics countries are for more likely to be Socialist and communist. With the exceptions of the few nordic countries.

>Catholicism vs Protestantism memes in 2018
>not being a Nestorian
W E W

>>10523491
The five solae.

>>10523698
That's because most of the world's Catholic countries were settled by France and Spain, who were terrible colonial administrators.

"—Then, said Cranly, you do not intend to become a protestant?

—I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?"

Joyce explained it perfectly.

>>10524164
the nordics aint socialists

Man, I love being Catholic. Come home children of God!

>>10523491
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNQVLtqOcrc

>>10524262
>le catholics were the original christians meme

>>10523530
Treatise on the Christian Religion by Calvin
Isaac Newton's writings
Kierkegaard

>>10524262
this chart is ridiculous

>>10523724
> covers for all old and new testament books
looks great

>>10524262
>>10523657
>>10523724
neat

>>10523722
>By what metric? GDP?
Since once saved, always saved, all that is left to do is accumulate money. Then their sons, feeling the spiritual void and bored with monetary pursuits, give themselves to lewdness and/or occult practices.

>>10523491
I am going to Heaven. The protestants are not.

>>10524351

>>10524614
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN3z2kHlowk

>>10524617
Cheeky priest, I like it a lot

Protestantism is the McDonalds of religion. Disagree with your local Revered on a point of theology? Just go down the block and open shop.

>>10523491
Faith vs donations, worship of God and Jesus vs both of those along with the pope

>>10524722
>the McDonalds of religion

Protestantism is a money fueled corporation with established hierarchy that lines the pockets of those at the top? Swing me a nip of that communion wine.

>>10523698
>Protestant countries are successful
The main British colonies are succesful. Everywhere else is a shithole and Germany and the Netherlands lost their colonies completely. Catholicism managed to spread regardless of economy because the Church doesn't give a fuck about it. Meanwhile the only place Protestantism is spreading is Brazil, thanks to insane tele-Evangelists. Modernity wouldn't even exist without France, Italy and Spain, and the richest part of Germany is the Catholic South, anyway.

But hey, I bet there's something really beneficial about Protestantism -- which is why the capitals of most historically Protestant countries are becoming majority Muslim.

>>10523491
>Memes aside, what are the key differences between Protestantism and Catholicism?
about 1-5 goals at home and 1-4 away, and best to bet on celtic either way

>>10524768
>something really beneficial about Protestantism

Probably how many people have access to a bible and how many a catholic priest.

I think the main dispute between our religious practices is Protestants believe in salvation through faith alone and Catholicism through the church.

>>10524792
Literacy wasn't a thing until maybe the 19th century and the Word of God spoken is the same as written.
>inb4 Bibles were locked up so people couldn't read them

Yes, that is probably the main dispute of Protestors and Catholics. And the dispute over papal authority is up there as well.

>>10524768
What the fuck are Tibetan Buddhists doing in south-eastern Russia ?

>>10524792
>>10524822
>catholicLARPers forgetting they really just want to be irish
>the people who made everyone else literate

>>10524767
Look up Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus. Its leader, Edir Macedo, has literally built a copy of Solomon's Temple in the middle of fucking Brazil and somehow manages to convince millions of people to give him 10% of their monthly income while commanding a military-like hierarchy of "shepherds" (pastores).

>>10524792
>Probably how many people have access to a bible and how many a catholic priest.
You do understand it was materially imposible for most people to have access to a Bible before the printing press, which came around years before Luther was even born, right? It's not like the Church was threatening people not to read the Bible, the resources, infrastructure and techonology necessary for most of the population knowing how to read and have a Bible simply weren't there.

If anything Protestantism is a product of those factors and not the other way around.

>>10524824
Actual Mongols.

>>10524849
>Actual Mongols.
Yeah i just checked, this shit is crazy. I guess you learn something new everyday.

>>10524614
>le jesus gaves the keys to st peter meme

>>10524840
Look up Jorge Mario Bergoglio. He's the 266th and current Pope of the Catholic Church, a title he holds ex officio as Bishop of Rome, and sovereign of Vatican City. He's literally the leader of a city state, a state that is legally considered an independent country in the middle of fucking Rome and somehow manages to convince billions of people that they're obliged to assist with the needs of the Church so that the Church has what is necessary for divine worship for apostolic works and works of charity end for the decent sustenance of ministers while commanding a military-like heirarchy of an actual fucking military

>>10524860
Russia is full of that kind of things. That Musilm bit in the middle of it are a bunch of Turkic republics. Russia has a bunch tiny republics inside it with their own ethincities and languages, and it used to be even more diverse.

>>10524863
>Leaves out the fact that Bergoglio is a Jesuit.

It's interesting to note that Catholics have been greatly influenced by Protestants at two major points (and lots of smaller ones too):
>the Reformation
>modern German philosophy

Just try to do Catholic theology in the 21st century without learning the entire essentially Pietistic/Protestant edifice of German idealism, Schleiermacher, Protestantism-infused Religionswissenschaft, Protestant phenomenology of religion, Karl Barth, etc.

>>10524849
I'm just saying I trust the people who wrote a 2700 year old book that survived that amount of time, near unchanged, more than the inheritance of an authority to allow one to be saved granted unto men who never met Christ at all.

In all honesty I practice faith, though it wavers, I'd like to think it would extend even to Catholics, allowing us both to be forgiven for our trust in Jesus and God.

Protestants believe they are saved by faith alone, therefore their worldview doesn't incorporate virtuous acts and a collective social project, basically leading them to fully participate in the western hyper-consumerist lifestyle. They often attempt to integrate this lifestyle with Christianity, basically creating a marketable brand out of religion. Spirituality without tradition and proper form.

Catholics believe in the sacred authority of the Church and participate in its institutions as their main form of worship. The Church is often involved in public morality but increasingly has to secularise its teachings to appeal to a wider public. The tendency is for Catholic culture to blend into generic nationalism and traditionalism without genuine belief by the populace, who only follow the rituals as prescribed in the family. Religious form without content.

>>10525327
>therefore their worldview doesn't incorporate virtuous acts and a collective social project, basically leading them to fully participate in the western hyper-consumerist lifestyle.

>implying

>>10525327
Every now and then somebody puts both sides together...

>>10525240
Your way of thinking woud imply you can understand the text without mediation, just as if you were one of those ancient people who wrote it, which raises the same objection you raise towards those people who never met Christ. More over, it implies the Bible was put together all at once, without edition, with one single vision in mind, when it clearly was not the case, historically. Even if you're going to put your faith in divine intervention, the second you have God make someone else write His book you've already let a third party in between you and Him, claiming that indeed they have more authority over it than you.

Now when it comes to this issue Protestantism stick to the text it decided on and pretty much lets everything else be damned, which leads to conflicting interpretations and things as inane as Creationism. Meanwhile, Catholicism preffers to leave reading the Bible into the hands of the experts, recognizing a text as important should require quite a lot of preparation; this leads to a division of spiritual labor, which can end in your priests being quite the scholars, but it gives the Church a great political (and even suprapolitical!) position, and can lead to it being capable of declaring crusades and inquisitions. It also leads to stagnation when it comes to Biblical studies, which is to me perhaps the largest pro of Protestantism.

I say this as someone who's not Christian and has no interest in either side winning. My answer is to study, read and work on with your knowledge.

Catholics: Jesus created an organization to be led by men. Material world is good because created by God. Sacramental theology possible because God created material things, so eucharist, holy water, rosary beads, statutes are not idolatry, God works through them (/lit/ favorite Book of the New Sun has this as a central theme, see the Claw). Humans can reach a sort of imperfect virtue alone but need God's grace for salvation. Salvation can be lost during one's life (and then regained, etc.). Person who fails to live life of heroic virtue but makes good confession before death goes to purgatory before heaven.

Magisterial Protestants (Lutherans/Calvinists): Jesus didn't create an organization, left a book written by his followers. Material world is basically evil (but not as evil as Gnostics thought) so sacraments impossible, God wouldn't mix with material in that way (Calvinists not Lutherans think this; Luther believed in the Real Presence). Humans are totally depraved and ruled by passion, its impossible to reach imperfect virtue. Humans are saved by God's grace alone and can't lose salvation. After accepting Christ, a Christian doesn't have to worry about his salvation anymore. This relives his anxiety and allow him (really God) to do a bunch of good works.

Radical/Other Protestants: Total free-for-all, impossible to generalize, usually some but not all what Lutherans and Calvinists think.

>>10524849
Luther wanted laypeople reading the Bible, but he didn't want people coming to their own conclusions about doctrine. If you lived in a state with an established Lutheran church, read the Bible, and came to a dissenting position you were at worst executed and at best prevented from preaching or teaching at a seminary. This was the same exact situation that existed in Catholic countries, just with Lutheran doctrine instead of Catholic doctrine. Modern American Evangelicals/Baptists assume Luther had their views

>>10525582
What I don't understand about the Protestant position is that the Bible itself leans towards the Catholic perspective on Church vs Scripture. Jesus never writes anything down. The Apostles don't write a whole lot down. But the Church, as an entity, does appear, and in the Gospel of Matthew Jesus is even shown founding it. Scripture seems to be something that came after the Church already existed.

>>10525327
Catholic church died in Vatican 2, the Catholics are in the catacombs.

>>10525657
Anyone who says this demonstrably lacks faith.

Protestantism = Atheism
Catholicism = Devil worship

It's satanism.

What's the best Martin Luther biography? There's like 50 to pick from.

>>10523491
protestantism gives up all traditional structures and places all importance in your meme personal relationship with god as and isolated unit

>Catholicism isn't a heresy

byzantinelaughing.jpg

>>10523537

Heresy is a meaningless epithet when:

1) both sets of beliefs are, as far as anyone is justified in assessing, false, and

2) even if either or both were true, then it would still also be true that no one is /justified/ in adhering to either one, because both invoke an unjust god who cannot possibly be of any use to humanity. This is where the argument terminates.

It's not /about/ god's larger plan. It never has been. That is the point. Someone goes to hell? A single one? Then all other considerations are void. It doesn't /matter/, at that point, that say, some more important creatures from dimension X, or some angels get to stay in heaven, to some larger purpose And this exactly because I am me, and because you are you, and because of the presumptive eternity of hell.

Also in direct reply to the OP's question, the one cult is merely younger than the other cult, and so causes the older one to become insecure in its lack of intellectual legitimacy, exactly because it goes no further than "muh culture".

>>10523491
>pope
>no pope

>>10523698
because we live in the age of dissolution, the more degenerate religions will always be more successful in it

Antidisestablishmentarianism

Did I get it? Did I use it right?

>>10526420
>le longest word is funny cause it sounds weird
>unironic shitpost completely tangential to the thread

Go back to r*ddit cuck

>>10524742
>worship of God and Jesus
more like worship yourself

>>10524768
>Meanwhile the only place Protestantism is spreading is Brazil
so protestantism only works in mutt colonies?

>>10525481
>It also leads to stagnation when it comes to Biblical studies, which is to me perhaps the largest pro of Protestantism.
that's only important if you fall for the progress meme

>>10525481
>I say this as someone who's not Christian and has no interest in either side winning. My answer is to study, read and work on with your knowledge.
at that point you are already a de facto protestant though, even if you protest your way back into the church

>>10524768
>But hey, I bet there's something really beneficial about Protestantism -- which is why the capitals of most historically Protestant countries are becoming majority Muslim.

You forgot the part where Catholic Paris and Catholic Brussels are arguably the most cucked cities in Europe.

>you are more cucked than me lololol
>no u!!
Holy... is this the famous power of christianity? I want more..

>>10526598
Neither of the two has been a Catholic city for decades. There's almost no Catholics left there and they of course have no political influence.

>>10526325
Heresy is very definable and discernable in Catholicism because it is a formalised religion. Heresy is denial of some, but not all truths of faith as opposed to heterorthodoxy or apostasy which are definably different. It is a system which is coherent within itself and has clear axioms.

>>10526619
Same can be said about most of the so-called “Protestant capitals”. As if any genuinely Christian party in Berlin or Amsterdam had any influence.

>>10524262
>Orthodox first church chronologically
>has the most reasonable doctrine on matters of theodicy, eschatology and worship
>people don't convert because "muh russians"

brainlets, all of you

>>10526623
There's no political Christian influence in Western Europe at all really.

>>10524528
No, none of us are going to heaven and probably not going to the paradise actually described in the bible either.

>>10526634
In Ireland and Italy, there arguably is. Not in questions that truly matter, but in marriage and abortion laws.

>>10524614
>conveniently omits orthodox

>>10526632
The Orthodox Church is in a sorry state today. They openly collude with the governments, justifying the local immoral and corrupt oligarchies in return for financial privileges.

t. Russian

>>10524617
>using a demonic invention to further your agenda

Yep, this guy's a true Christian

>>10526632
I don't convert because of a number of reasons, one is the national character that becomes a tool of the powers that be, be it the Sultan, Milošević, the Tsar or Putin. It is distinctly fractured and not universal.
The essence energies denies the univocity of God's being which is impossible to justify in my opinion.
They admitted divorce, the worst thing Catholics fear about Francis doing now.
The lack of intellectual output that would push me towards it (nothing pre 1054 counts for this as there's also the Eastern Catholic Church).

>>10526642
so does every other church. Its the end of days, what did you expect?

>>10526648
That’s why I’m more sympathetic towards the Protestant doctrine. They don’t swear allegiance to any political institution.

I’m not a Christian, but if I became one, I would choose Protestantism. The Catholic Church has openly supported fascism and the Orthodox Church corrupt oligarchies, so that’s all what is left.

Even if you (rightfully) assert that Protestants were involved in just as much bullshit, each Protestant is still responsible for himself.

>>10526657
You mean Franco? Because it was really the only alternative to being slaughtered by the communists.

>>10526669
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

Most prominently with Franco, Mussolini, Dollfuss, but there are many other examples.

>>10526674
How's that a problem, honestly?

>>10526684
I’d argue that there are contradictions between Christianity and fascism.

>>10526687
There are, but there's a difference between doctrinal acceptance or complete support and of a certain regime by some elements for prudential reasons. Supporting Franco wasn't exactly optional, it was either him or getting shot by commies, Mussolini was more of a joke than some horrible totalitarian. I don't really see how supporting the two is any worse than doing the same for a number of other governments where the situation is complicated.

>>10526695
It starkly contradicts the claim of the Catholic Church to be enacting Gods will on earth and places them into the realm of Machiavellian “real politics”. That is as anti-Christian as it gets.

You’re partly right when you say that the clerus often had to fear for its lives. But even then, a genuinely faithful Christian would have preferred death to fascism.

And in the cases of Austria, for example, there was zero real threat for the Church, but they still chose to back fascism.

>>10526704
You seem to have a very shallow understanding of what the Catholic Church actually claims. It certainly doesn't claim that it enacts God's will on Earth.
And you also have a shallow understanding of "real Christianity" or rather one that's not related to what Catholics consider to be real Christianity.
As far as Austria goes, I'm not sure, I haven't read much on that, but considering every other Catholic country and their relationship with the Nazis the 'no danger' part sounds quite dubious.

>>10525637
What's more, the very reason scripture even has authority is because of the Church. Protestants also follow doctrine established in the first few ecumenical councils because of binding tradition, and not an independent analysis of the texts. They just arbitrarily don't follow the whole argument through.
Protestantism is simply incoherent, whether one is Christian or not. The Catholic claim to truth is based on a postulated historical event and institutional perseverance, even if you think it's all bullshit it's at least comprehensible and follows a logic. The only decent Protestant denominations are the ones who accept church authority, like Anglicans.

>>10526731
This is fantastically highlighted by John Henry Newman in Essay On Development of Christian Doctrine and Apologia Pro Vita Sua. It's so well made it's actually important for epistemology in general- MacIntyre simply shifted the religious epistomology to epistomology of everything else.

>>10526695
>muh commies
The Church operated just fine under the vast majority of communist governments. Enforced atheism was strongest in the USSR, and even there it was relaxed later on, when the USSR stopped being under constant threat.
In other states like Yugoslavia, the majority of the populace claimed some kind of religious affiliation.

Honestly, the willingness of religious people to support extreme right-wing policy is what turns a lot of people towards leftism, me included. An honest Christianity would at the very least support a social democratic arrangement, if not outright anti-capitalism. Capitalist values are in abject contradiction to the Church.

How do protestants reconcile their lack of a pope with Jesus' explicit naming of Peter as the first one?

>>10526746
In Yugoslavia it was normal to murder priests or send them to the naked island for the first 10-15 years of the government. Religious persons were unable to operate freely in any of the higher economic and social circles and were excluded from education. Catholic institutions such as universities and schools for children were closed and virtually all property was "nationalised". There are numerous examples of this. Normally my ass. Your ignorance amazes me and I would argue it is mostly that which pushed you into leftism.
Only in the 60s did the relations improve, largely because Catholicism gave up most of its claims in the political field.

>>10526754
Peter's faith is the rock. Anyway the earliest theological controversy was one that Peter lost, and the final decision wasn't even made by him but by St James, the patriarch of Jerusalem.

>>10523491
2000 years of tradition

How can christians reconcile evolution and the sanctity of man?
I used to think it wasn't a big deal, assuming that as long as God was in control. Evolution was a means of Creation.

>>10526513
>Anyone who isn't a Catholic and supports work ethics is Protestant.
???

>>10524614
The Vatican is the last vestige of the political structure whose soldiers physically murdered Jesus. They hardly have any credible claim to being the original church. Pilate can wash his hands all he wants - he gave the order for crucifixion - he has blood on his hands.
>They made me do it. I dindu nuffin.

>>10523491
Hellfire(proddies) and eternal paradise (Catholics)

I don't necessarily like Catholicism, but Protestantism strikes me as ridiculous for not simply veering on to full-on, completely individualistic mysticism if they say that every believer is pretty much a priest/qualified to interpret the Bible for themselves. You'd think there'd thus be more variety and mysticism in Protestant beliefs, but I don't find that much in it. You still get the standard fare with a lot of competing sects, pastors and deacons and congregations going to church etc.

>>10526621

You've missed the point of the post to which you replied. The purpose of that post was not to deny that "heresy" as such-and-such definite meaning in a cult (of course it does).

The purpose of the post was to deny the utility of the epithet, the moment it steps out into the real world. As it is frequently used for example on this website of all places, often with a presumptive and unwarranted sincerity, where you can go next door and look at exotic chinese cartoon porn.

Don't miss the point again by getting bogged down in what 4chan is like. The point is that "heresy" is a meaningless epithet once it is presumed to be applied to the real world. "I like Star Trek TNG better than Voyager because reasons and these reasons are very very serious and really really matter." This is you.

>>10526623
>As if any genuinely Christian party in Berlin or Amsterdam had any influence.
>Angela Dorothea Merkel is a German politician serving as Chancellor of Germany since 2005 and leader of the centre-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU) since 2000
>Christian Democratic Union