/lit/ - Literature

>>1038554
dungeons and dragons is awesome

> power levels
clearly 2deep4u, go back to dbz

Power levels in Tolkien are pretty cut and dry. Gandalf, Saruman, the Balrog, Sauron they're all Maiar, something like demigods, servants to the Valar, the gods of Middle Earth created by Eru, the creator. Gandalf and Saruman are bound to human forms, and sworn to not interfere, but show glimmers of their true power, hence Gandalf being able to fight Balrog to a stand-still. Sauron is obviously the most powerful of these spirits on the easter continent.

Below that is beings like Shelob, the offspring of the ancient, evil spider Ungoliant and then beings like the Nazgul, who were men corrupted and given dark power by their bond with Sauron. Also on this level are beings like the great Eagles, descended from servant spirits of the Valar.

Below that would be the Elves, who are quick and smart and resistant from aging and disease and given some magical grace. Also the uruk-hai, being the elite orcs, orcs being elves twisted long ago by Morgoth, the principal evil Valar.

Beyond that would be men and dwarves and below that the other races of hobbits, goblins, etc.

Aragorn and Glorfindel are simply great warriors, and Aragorn is also descended from the men of Numenor, a powerful bloodline mixing human and elf.

it's seriously retarded. i think he had morgoth losing to a elf or something, and as always, the big bad boss makes mental cramp mistake to allow lv1 gearless midgets to fuck up his shit totally.

>>1038591
But a hobbit beat Shelob and a man and an elf beat Sauron at his full power. So why couldn't Aragorn take on a Balrog with the sword that killed Sauron?

Also, you still didn't indicate what those power levels even mean. Super strength? Imperviousness to flame?

>>1038612

>>1038585
at least d&d makes sense

>>1038633
do you have aspergers?

If you want a real horror show of stuff that makes no sense in dnd and terms read a dnd novel.

In The Hobbit, Gandalf could summon lightning.

Why didn't the eagles just fly frodo over mount doom so he could drop it in?

>>1038619
not that guy but explain why facepalm

the nazguls' main power stems from their ability to strike fear into the hearts of men, basically if they dont scare you they are not particularly powerful.

Glorfindel, or at least the one i believe you are referring to in the siege of gondolin fought a balrog to a truce, if i remember correctly, just so others could escape.

I think tolkien is purposely ambiguous so as to let the reader determine exactly what the characters are cabaple of.

>>1038643
This man.

It's fantasy, aspie. It doesn't make sense in the first place.

>>1038753
Shot down, ring lost to Sauron. Endgame.

also, lotr is not a video game.

>>1038612
No, a hobbit did not 'beat' Shelob, the star thing (fuck me for forgetting it's name) and Sting drove it off because, well that's what they do.

-super strength (able to strikes from creatures much bigger than men)

-super reflexes/speed (able to stop an arrow at point blank range)

-enhanced constitution (never shown to have much fatigue)

-sorcery:

---- * create light from staff
---- * create flames from staff
---- * shoot lightning . . . once
---- * seal door
---- * heat metal

- using ring:

---- * Inspire Courage (+2 attack bonus and damage for 6 rounds/level)

etc

>>1038786
A hobbit beat Shelob using weapons the same way a normal man beat Smaug using a weapon. This isn't power levels - it's realistic.

The problem I have with LOTR is all those times when it says crap like, "And this foe was greater than all the company combined" or "And none among the mortal race yet stood who could match the might of heroes past" or some garbage like that. I mean, what the hell does that mean?

>>1038775
fly higher

>>1038823
also it's way safer than the path they took over the swamp and through the mountains with a schitzophrenic skinny goblin like hobbit for a guide. and it's faster

Just read the books a few dozen more times and play the movie softly while you sleep for the rest of your life and all will be revealed.

>my face when aspies try to turn LOTR into a cheap numbers game like pokemon near me

Get out dude, you've clearly missed the point of literature.

>>1038778

>>1038865
Chill bro, we're just trying to min/max our shit.

>>1038775
midgets captured, endgame. seems like eagles are better.

>>1038865
it'd be more interesting as pokemon tbh, since treating it as literature would just yield "good guys always win."

I'll just leave this here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

>>1038891
there's a myriad of themes that are presented in lord of the rings

>>1038989
wasn't completely serious, in case you can't tell

have you ever read shit like the iliad OP?

it works the exact same way

>>1038997
Yeah, yeah, yeah, hubris and man's helplessness against the power of the gods. See, but those at least made some sense, since powers were better defined.

-Achilles was nigh-invincible
-Hercules had super strength/durability
-Medusa had stone sight

Tolkien randomly puts characters on levels above others, without going into the logistics or even providing a framework for us to imagine. I'm still having trouble imagining ANYONE short of the Ainur defeating a dragon without a bow or at least a lance.

>>1039016
>I'm still having trouble imagining ANYONE short of the Ainur defeating a dragon without a bow or at least a lance.

Actually, most of the dragons that killed in Tolkien's stuff died through jsut that sort of thing.

Smaug was killed with a bow.
Glaurung was killed by a guy who had gotten beneath him without the dragon realizing it
Scatha the Worm was killed when he was lured out of his lair and a rockslide was dropped on him.

Only Angalacon the Black was killed in a direct confrontation, and that was after battling with A: a giant flying ship, probably crewed by elves with bows, and Thorondor, a eagle the size of a dragon.

>>1039016
holy shit dude

it's a book about magic written in like the 40s or whatever

there wasn't even DnD back then for god's sake

>>1039093

Not to mention, LotR wasn't ABOUT all the epic stuff. It was about four much smaller, much more relatable characters who were stumbling through an epic and trying to hang on by the skin of their teeth, and end up saving the day.

>>1039099
exactly

the story is a limited 3rd person perspective from 4 characters

the hobits

>>1039108

The epic stuff is all essentially backdrop.

>>1039108
er, hobbits

>>1039108
>>1039099
Don't give me that garbage. He started the Silmarillion before he started The Hobbit.

While I agree the powers and epic stuff isn't the point of the book, Tolkien HAD thought a fair bit of it out. He just didn't explain it all in the book to maintain the mystery that is essential to magic.

To Tolkien, magic was will projecting and personified. One of his most basic rules was that incarnated creatures, like elves, Balrogs, and Maiar in human form, were less powerful then unicarnate beings, like the Valar and the other Maiar. To be incarnate is to be limited by flesh. To be unincarnate is to essentially be a literal force of nature, like a storm or an earthquake. An unicarnate being has much greater power, but can't affect the world quite as directly.

Part of the misconception here is also the size of Balrogs. As described by Tolkien, they're not much bigger then humans or elves. However, their projected will creates an aura of fear, shadow and power that moves with it, that obscures its form and makes it seem much bigger. If Aragorn tried to fight a Balrog, he'd be crushed by the force of its will. Gandalf or a powerful elf wouldn't.

>>1039135
>he'd be crushed by the force of its will
The hell he would. Aragorn taunted Sauron directly through the palantir without consequence and was noted to have been capable of being a Dark Lord, had he decided to take the Ring.

>>1038753
Because the Eagles, being dicks, didn't feel like it.
Once the job was done though, they were more than happy to give them a lift.

>>1039133

He also never published it. He was a big fan of epics and romances (in the medieval sense), so he constructed his own. But that's just setting. The true story he chose to tell was not of the epic movers and shakers of that setting, but of humble, down-to-earth characters who were moving through that setting and rubbing shoulders with the powerful.

The story is from the perspective of the hobbits. That's partly why the mystic and magical stuff is so mysterious. They don't understand it, and are confused and frightened by it. Explaining the precise mechanics to the reader would detract from that.

One of the best points depicting this is when Frodo and Sam are hanging with Faramir and his men. At dinner, the men all stand to face the West in a semi-religious tribute to the Valar, much like saying grace at dinner. The hobbits have never heard of the Valar, or this ritual, and feel a bit embarrassed and confused by it all, much as you or I might feel when stuck having dinner with a very religious Christian family.

>>1039154
>He also never published it.
He tried.

>>1039150
besides sauron had lots of flying baddies that would have killed the eagles in a direct assault

fuck I hate it when people ask that question

>>1039142

Confronting Sauron through the Palantir was not confronting Sauron directly, and even then Aragorn barely held his own. Wresting control of the Palantir from Sauron exhausted him.

And yes, the temptation of the ring made implied that Aragorn could be a new dark lord. That's the POINT. Sauron was so confident when Aragorn and Co. came to the Black Gates because he thought Aragorn had succumbed to the lure of the ring, and would therefore be easy to crush. Aragorn was strong willed, yes, but he had no idea how to control the ring. If he had claimed it, it would have consumed him and Sauron would have taken it before Aragorn could ever figure out how to use it.

>>1039167

and failed. And as a result, came to the conclusion that direct epics wasn't what people were interested in. So he used his epic setting as backdrop for a different story.

>>1039168
eagles > fell beasts

>>1039178

Remember, Legolas killed a fell beast in Fellowship, but later on all the Nazgul had fell beast mounts again. It's implied Sauron had a whole roost of the damn things somewhere. Presumably, they were stupid animals, and needed Nazgul to control them. The point is, the eagles COULDN'T kill the Nazgul, and the Nazgul could always get more mounts.

Also, keep in mind. Sauron almost floored Sam and Frodo in Mordor when he focused his will on them. They only got away because he didn't actually know they were there. If he saw the eagles coming, if his Nazgul told him they were coming, and they strayed too close to Barad Dur (and Mr. Doom is right next to the damn place), he could probably knock them out of the sky with the sheer force of his will, as personified in the Gaze of his Great Eye

>>1039154
I love you

>>1039194
stop it, I have a girlfriend

>>1039201

you asked.

>>1039194
>the eagles COULDN'T kill the Nazgul
What are you basing that on? These are the creatures that couldn't go 9-on-1 against some jackass with a torch and a broken sword.

>he could probably knock them out of the sky with the sheer force of his will
Well, it's not like he knows everything happening within his lands. I think the idea is that someone would provide a diversion for the eagles.

The only reason the eagles were able to get in in the first place was because Sauron was defeated by that point and dead. The whole plot kind of makes sense if you think about the logistics of traveling that far with the technology available and the inhabitants and geographical challenges of the land itself.

>>1039194
>Gaze of his Great Eye
That's something that's kinda bothered me, How is Sauron alive after yea so many centuries, and in what form?

friendly reminder here, you guys are debating power levels of ill defined objects in a fictional universe.

now carry on.

>>1039212
>What are you basing that on? These are the creatures that couldn't go 9-on-1 against some jackass with a torch and a broken sword.

The Nazgul could be beaten, not killed. Remember, Gandalf/Elrond crush them with the sudden flood in front of Rivendell. It kills the horses, but the Nazgul's disembodied spirits flee back to Sauron, reform, and return, stronger then ever. The Witch King was only killed because it's implied the enchanted Numenorean blade Merry stabbed him with undid some of the spells that held him together.

If you want a more in depth description of how the Nazgul function, let me know.

>>1039221
what do you mean how is he alive

he's a maiar, a spirit older than the physical world itself

>>1039221
He's said to be a "shade" or something, I think some sort of bodiless consciousness type thing.
The years aren't the issue, beings like him don't really have natural lifespans.

>>1039221
He's alive because he's an immortal demon. And his form is debatable.

Most people accept the giant eye thing, but some fans can't reconcile that with Gollum saying "he's only got 9 fingers" or whatever, and assume that that means he's back in some humanoid form and that the Eye-thing is just a symbol.

>>1039233
Did the Nazgul have super strength?

>>1039236
>>1039235
I guess he can look like whatever evil thing he likes

as a maiar he could take any physical shape he wanted but after the fall of numrenor he lost the ability to become anything beautiful

>>1039221

I think the important part is none of the characters in the story actually know for sure. What goes on in the depths of Barad Dur is a mystery to them.

Personally, I view Sauron as something of a ghost. Pure will, swirling and permeating some chamber high in the tower. Remember, according to Tolkien, unincarnate beings were more powerful. Sauron is just a force of will projected from the tower. When Gollum was dragged before him, I imagine he was brought to a vast, empty chamber. At first, it seemed uninhabited, but he felt a presence in his mind, weighing down on his body like an invisible weight, a pressure in the air. And then Sauron spoke to him with a voice that that was his very will focused on that poor, miserable creature.

No wonder Gollum was terrified of him.

>>1039241

Yes and no. The Nazgul's power was two-fold. One, the strogner Sauron is, the stronger they are, since they are basically extensions of his will. Two, they have more power of the fearful and weak willed.

Compare, for example, Fordo and Aragorn. Aragorn is defiant on Weathertop, using fire and heat (which they fear) and unafraid. what's more, Sauron at that point had not yet moved openly against anybody, which was why he was sending out the Nazgul, hooded, cloaked, and was relying on spies. He was not at full power yet and neither were they. The next day, at the fords of Rivendell, Frodo also tries to be defiant. The Nazgul laugh at him, gesture casually, and his sword snaps in half and he is paralyzed. He was trying, but he was too weak willed and afraid to resist them.

Then consider later, in Minas Tirith, when Gandalf confronts the Witch King. Sauron at that point is at the height of his power during the war, and his servants, who are linked to him, had grown in power as well. The screams of Nazgul are described as becoming much more potent, hammering down on the terrified forces of Gondor like a physical force. The Witch King was no longer hiding and slinking, he was brazenly riding forward with burning sword and shining crown. At that point, Gandalf and the Witch King were almost evenly matched. Gandalf was probably more powerful, but if they had actually fought it probably would have been a close thing.

>>1039233
And Eowyn took advantage of the whole prophetic "no man can kill the Witch King" thing, and in a world where prophecies are really important it makes sense.

>>1039276

some people have theorized that if Merry hadn't stabbed the Witch King, Eowyn wouldn't have been able to kill him, even with the prophecy behind her.

>>1039276

>>1039280
Well, an enchanted knife in the back would probably help.

>>1039288

Well, the line about the spells of the knife being designed to undo the spells that held the Witch King together implies that the enchanted knife made him vulnerable to harm.

wait, I thought it was Merry that killed him

he had that knife from Arnor, the kingdom destroyed by the Witch King, it was enchanted against him and everything

all Eowyn did was distract him and get her shield arm broken to pieces, right?

Quick question: Of all Tolkien's characters, who is the most hax?

>>1039296
I'm pretty sure she delivered the final blow.

>>1039296

No, the line specifies that Merry only stabbed the Witch King in the leg, just above the back of the knee.

Eowyn proceeded to stab him through the face, just as she did in the movie.

>>1039297

Eru.

Duh.

>>1039297
Hurin

the greatest warrior of men

>>1039297
Gandalf. If you strike him down, he shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

>>1039300
well Merry still gets the kill in my opinion... Pippin got to kill that troll you know

if it weren't for his Arnor blade Eowyn would have been toast...

>>1039306

I dunno, Turin was the one who killed a crap ton of Balrogs.

>>1039314
no

only two balrogs were ever killed by elves, none by men

The eagles would have been corrupted by the ring if they carried (and been in contact with/close to) frodo and would probably just fly straight to Sauron.

>>1039302
See, he's a godlike being, so he isn't really hax to me because he operates within his godlike potential, not below or above it.

To me, a hax character is someone who gets away with ridiculous shit and whose power is either ill defined or completely disregarded by the author.

>>1039321
Wouldn't that depend on the individual eagle? They were supposed to be noble creatures, after all.

>>1039324
oh, then Bombadil

nigga is just plain wack

>>1039314

and a whole ton by the Maiar armies of the Valar

>>1039327
yeah, and so were Galadriel and Boromir

>>1039328

Bombadil is only nigh invincible within his little zone of power, AKA Old Forest. And even Gandalf and Elrond agreeded that if all the forces of Sauron had been concentrated on Bombadil and his little patch of land, he'd eventually be broken.

This is the nerdiest conversation I've had in a while, and that's saying something.

>>1039332
It's not like Gandalf or Galadriel couldn't have held out against the ring for along time; it's that the consequences of them being consumed were much worse than the consequences of Frodo succumbing.

It's not like an eagle could become a dark lord.

>>1039330

You know, considering that those Maiar armies were probably mostly unincarnate maiar, it's easy to understand why Beleriand was destroyed.

It would be like the Earth itself turned on Morgoth's forces. It's mentioned that animals, trees and stones attacked them. Powerful winds probably blasted Morgoth's armies, the ground cracking apart under their feet, forest fires raging about them followed by thunderstorms of incredible fury.

Tuor was also a pretty awesome dude. He was the only Man to go live in Valinor, where I suppose he still "is."

>>1039352

I have to wonder if that might not be a mixed blessing. An eternity of unchanging sameness. At least the spirits of other men get to venture out beyond Valinor, to find whatever there is to find in the great void.

I think I remember reading in the book, that The Ring itself gave you +6 to Strenght, +4 to Wisdom, and +7 to Dexterity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwxA9O-q2o8#t=30s

still the best

>>1039358
but you have to make a will save every round

>>1039356
not the void

not if they weren't bad anyway

I distinctly remember heaven being mentioned when it talked about Elrond's brother dying after he chose to remain mortal

which reminds me of something interesting, the fact that elves have no afterlife. what do you think about that

and being stuck in the halls of waiting with that one valar dude isn't an after life, it's a state of non existence until Eru remakes the world

yup elves dying was serious business

>>1039380

What's worse is that it was probably a complete sausage fest, since more male elves are going to be killed than female elves.

>>1039369
That's why if gandalf had the ring he would be unstoppable, he has a +3 added against will saves because he is a lv 15 Wizard

>>1039380

I thought the dead elves got to wander freely around Valinor. In which case, things might be eternal and unchanging, but at least the location is nice.

Also, at least they have consistency. They KNOW what's gonna happen, where they'll spend eternity. Humans wander off intot he ether to who-knows where. It's vaguely implied the meet up with Eru, but how far do they have to go there, and is it possible to get lost?

With humans, it's one big unknown. With elves, it's a certainty.

>>1039389
well the whole not technically existing thing kind of negates a sausage fest from ever taking place

but sheesh what a scary thought. to be an elf going into combat knowing that, despite your superior everything, you could die and if you did then that was it

>>1039402

Well, at least all the remaining Elves at least eventually sailed to Valinor. After that, all the chicks would be there too.

Plus, I'm sure Morgoth's genocides killed plenty of female elves back in the day.

>>1039400
nope dead elves are stuck with that one valar who is in charge of the dead

I think his wife is the valar who is always crying

>>1039410

I thought only bad or morally questionable Elves got stuck with.. Mandos, right? I think that's his name. So, it'd basically be Feanor and Co. Plus those dickweed elves who sold out Gondolin.

The elves never had much sex drive anyway. If they had, the world would have been overrun.

>>1039417

I think Tolkien even stated once in his notes that the reproduced much more slowly then humans and were less interested in sexual pleasure.

Man, dating an elf chick would be HARD. They wouldn't care at all about how good you were in bed, and they'd take for ever to put out. Even after they did, they wouldn't offer it that often and they'd want you to keep up all the romance jazz, because that's what they're really interested in.

>>1039417

I think Tolkien evens tate once in his notes that the reproduced much more slowly then humans and were less interested in sexual pleasure.

Man, dating an elf chick would be HARD. They wouldn't care at all about how good you were in bed, and they'd take for ever to put out. Even after they did, they wouldn't offer it that often and they'd want you to keep up all the romance jazz, because that's what they're really interested in.

Man, fuck the elves and the humans. What happened to the DWARVES when they died? Or the Ents? Or the orcs?

At least with Hobbits, it's implied they had the same fate as men.

LOL why didn't they dig a hole into a lava vein and drop the ring there, safely in wherever LOL

>>1039416
nope, all dead elves go there

bad elves would go into the void I guess

since that's where Morgoth is and Morgoth = Satan

>>1039437

I'm not so sure that's how it works. when's the last time you checked?

>>1039434
orcs have no souls

they don't go anywhere when they die

dwarves were given real souls by Enu after what's his face the valar made them, and I think I remember something about them going to be with that valar when they died

as for everything else, who knows, but they'll get their lives back in the new eternal and perfect world Eru will make

>>1039435
HEY! THAT PIC IS ON DEVIANT ART!!

>>1039438
I specifically remember that being a point this literature PhD guy I know was lecturing about

when he was lecturing on Tolkien stuff

he translated part of The Fellowship of the Ring into latin when he was like a college student decades ago, he knows Tolkien's material pretty damn well

>>1039445
>orcs have no souls

It's implied some orcs might have once been elves though. In which case later genrations of orc would be descended from elf stock.

Man, wouldn't it SUCK if the orcs all went to the halls of Mandos as well? Bet the Valar don't put THAT on the travel brochures for the Grey Havens.

>>1039428
I read The Two Towers before I read The Fellowship of the Rings, and I remember wondering why the hell Aragorn didn't go for Eowyn, who was obviously hot for him.

>>1039462

Eowyn didn't really love Aragorn, she just saw him as a potential way out of her dead end life of despair and duty.

>>1039453
it's not implied. all of them were elves

but Morgoth squished the soul right out of them, made them into animals

that's why orcs are pure evil, if they had souls they would have some capacity to choose to be good

>>1039468

As I recall, Tolkien never quite figured out the deal with orcs. He was always concerned about the implications of an entire race of thinking, talking beings being purely evil. He died without ever coming up with a good solution to the problem.

>>1039468
So then what about Half Orcs?

>>1039483
dunno. but all of them are evil so I assume they're no different from regular orcs in that regard

and to tell the truth I'm not 100% certain that orcs have no souls but that's the only way I could figure out why they're pure evil

>>1039472

Yes he did, he advocated shipping them back to Africa.

>>1039497
ohboyherewegodotjaypeg

orcs were not black people. there were in fact black people in middle earth land, they lived way south of harad, in the sun lands or something. I think

actually orcs sort of look like asians (yellow skin, short, bow legged)

>>1039507

The Harad people were Turkish/Arabic in culture and appearance, whereas the Orcs were clearly based on the folk of Um Bongo land. That is to say, they thrived on the anti-Lembas which is wattymelon. That is to say, they were black as the ace of spades. What I'm driving at is, the Orcs were brothers. They were homeboys. They were straight outta Mordor, namean?

coons.

>>1039511
he said they lived south of harad, not in harad.

>>1039511
then why do they look like asians

>>1039517

Because he hated chinks too.

>>1039516

The Haradim.

>>1039507
I wouldn't be so sure.

The dwarves were based on the Jews (that is to say, the racist conception of Jews by non-Jewish people throughout the ages). Tolkien loved that idea, too. He thought it was so clever.

>>1039526

The relationship between the Elves and the Dwarves is meant to be an illustration of how upper-class Catholics and Jews can get along as long as the Jews know their place.

>>1039537
huh. where did you hear that

the relationship between elves and dwarves was that they always hated each other for all of time except for legolas and gimli

>>1039548

YES, YOU FUCKING CUNT, that's what I clearly just said. Catholics and Jews. No time for each other. But look, they can get along.


But the Elves are still better.

>>1039537
That's nonsense. Tolkien in his letters states the enmity between dwarves and elves was actually the elves fault (since they denied the dwarves fair payment for having made something superior to what had been requested).

Which is something I wish the lame ass movies had made a point of; the elves are powerful but exceedingly hubristic, and don't actually have a reason to be, given their history is filled with them getting their heads up their asses then getting slaughtered (or having a whole goddamn continent sunk into the ocean).

>implying Tolkien's work is remotely this filled with allegory
>not realizing the only allegory involved was in vague references to a catholicism-based concept of a creator god and angels and some vague prayers

All of you are fucking illiterate.

>>1039561

No, that doesn't contradict what I said. Tolkien knew that the Catholic vs. Jew thing is essentially the story of Catholics persecuting Jews. He understood that intellectually. But the Elves are still superior, because that's how he thought, and the Dwarves' beef is down to gelt, filthy lucre, cashmoney.

>>1039573

> IMPLYING I CARE WHAT SOME GASSING-CANDIDATE FUCKING TOLKIEN FANS THINKS OF THE WORK OF HIS EVIL MASTER.

EAT SHIT SHITPEG.

>>1039561
>lame ass movies
Uh, the movies are superior to the books in almost every way.

>>1039596
what are you doing on this board even

>>1039596

NO FAGET, YOU GOT THAT *WRONG*
YOU'RE ONLY ENTRY-LEVEL, PLEASE TO RUN ALONG


COCKSUCKERRRRRR...

>>1039601
Can we all at the very least agree that Fight Club (film) > Fight Club (novel)?

>>1039605

go and have you dinner, only your dinner is dicks and you eat dicks

>>1039601
>>1039603
The movies are better because they make the main characters better at the expense of side characters, and the more likable main characters (Aragorn, Hobbits) better at the expense of less likable main characters (Gandalf). I'm not joking. In the books, characters like Faramir and Gandalf are insufferable. The movies humanizes them and allows other characters to be more competent.

>>1039613
the hobbits are the only main characters

the whole book is taken from a limited third person perspective that focuses exclusively on the hobbits

I really don't get what you're saying and I doubt you do either

>>1039613
>The movies humanizes them
That was the movies' greatest failing.

>>1039627
>hobbits are the only herp derp
Yeah, you do realize there are large portions of the book written without any Hobbits, right? Anyway, what I meant was

Book: Gandalf sits around wondering about the password to get into Moria. Then, anti-climatically, he figures it out.
Movie: Frodo, showing that Hobbit perspective can sometimes be invaluable, realizes that it's a riddle, finally allowing them to gain access to Moria.

>>1039637
I didn't say it was 1st person view you fucktwit

>>1039627
The narrator's perspective doesn't indicate who the main characters are. Ron, Hermione, and Harry were all main characters of the Potter books, but we only ever saw into Harry's mind.

>>1039647
>the whole book is taken from a limited third person perspective that focuses exclusively on the hobbits
AND THEN
>Yeah, you do realize there are large portions of the book written without any Hobbits, right?
The books are about the Fellowship in general.
The only book specifically about hobbits is the Hobbit.
Which is about a Hobbit.

What does the Silmarillion refer to? I understand that the Silmarils are magic crystals, but what is the Silmarillion? Is it the set of crystals? The one who created them? The one who stole them? The age in which they were around? What they did?

Seriously, this has been bugging me.

>>1039708

It's the story of the Silmarils.

I havent read the book in awhile but how strong exactly was the witch king of angmar? I believe him and gandalf had a epic staredown in front of the gate of minis tirith.Who would win in a fight, gandalf or witch king?

>>1039716
I'm not sure that makes any sense.

>>1039726
A lot of hardcore fans think that Gandalf could have won hands down, but it's never very clear. As someone else said, the Witch King was never at full power.

Still, considering that Gandalf held off all of the Nazgul on his own a couple books prior, I wouldn't put much faith in Angmar.

>>1039738
I'd mind that Gandalf the White was an exceedingly powerful Maiar; a type of powerful angel in Tolkien's cosmology.

Even at full power, even if the Witch King could put up a fight against him, he couldn't actually win. I think at best he could temporarily chase away the essence that composes Gandalf, but he couldn't destroy him.

>>1039745
>Gandalf the White was an exceedingly powerful Maiar
Yeah, but Sauron was even stronger than that when he had the One Ring, and he lost to Gil-Galad and Elendil.

I think that Gandalf probably would have won, but I doubt it'd be a shut out.

>>1039745
He couldn't destroy Gandalf in the sense that you can't really destroy any creature's soul, but he could still have physically killed him. After all, Gandalf was killed by the Balrog and only came back to life because his superiors sent him back.

>>1039753
Sauron, yes, but the Witch King is one of his servants; admittedly bound to the will and strength of Sauron, but even at his greatest he wouldn't be as powerful as Sauron.

Though I think we're in general forgetting some key parts of his cosmology and the importance of prophetic fate in Tolkien's world. He was working from his perspective as a very devout catholic; Eru is quite plainly his religion's concept of an all-powerful creator.

In the end, regardless of what would happen, Sauron actually has to lose, he's a servant, quite literally, of the devil (Morgoth) and in the end of time, when Morgoth returns to creation, he'd have gotten the shit kicked out of him too.

Though that thought makes me wonder, what of Sauron in the final battle of creation? His spirit after the destruction of the ring was rendered powerless, wandering Arda howling forever in futile insanity and rage (same as Saruman's). I wonder what would become of them in the equivalent of the apocalypse of Arda.

>>1039759
Gandalf can't even really be 'killed', perse, though. And there is a theory he didn't even have a physical body to harm when he came back as 'the White' (when riding a great eagle, it's commented he's 'much lighter' and he tells Pippen orc weapons can no longer touch him).

>>1039768
Interesting. I don't remember that part. He could have just been referring to how much faster and stronger he'd become though (stopped Legolas', Aragorn's, and Gimli's attacks simultaneously).

>>1039779
Yeah, consider as the Gray he was actually supposed to be quite frail in many ways, like an aged human. Some just see it as Gandalf, sans the physical limitations of his perceived age to mortal beings. Like I said though, it's just a theory.

Also does gandalf actually use sorcery or he just using the ring of fire's powers(most powers gandalf uses are fire based except the "shutting spell")?

What does /lit/ think about the theory that the Three Rings actually had tangible, non-BS powers and that Gandalf got his fire creation ability from his ring?

>>1039821
He shot lightning once in The Hobbit IIRC.

>>1039821
Gandalf's powers are largely inspired by Germanic and British myths, wherein magic is relatively subtle compared to modern perceptions of what it should look like. His perception and quasi-immortality are powers in themselves.

And he certainly did gain some kind of abilities from the ring he wore, but those would be supplementary, not remotely the basis of his powers.

>>1039828
Not that he didn't use other magic powers, mind you. He struck orcs dead with his magic in the Hobbit and could appear and disappear.

Just, most of his magic was quite self-consciously not flashy and more in line with epics, wherein the most common magic was subtle.

>>1039828
as gandalf the grey he most likely relied heavily on his ring, as the white I think he used his own powers

however I'm not quite what exactly the 3 elvish rings were.Weren't they imbued with the power of valar or miar? Which was the strongest of the 3 rings?

>>1039837
elrond's

>>1039841
what powers did elronds ring have?

This thread is really making me want to read the books now

are they as enjoyable as the movies?

>>1039850
That's a loaded question. I enjoyed the movies more, but the books have an endless amount of lore to satisfy your inner geek.

>>1039847
Ring of Air, having the powers of healing and preservation like the other two did, whatever the hell that may mean.

>>1039863
I see

Thanks anon, I'm excited now