/lit/ - Literature

>>10380034
He is right, yes. Still one can be proud of his nation while acknowledging defects.

>haha did I trigger you Nazis? xD

>>10380034
Correct, in an anemic way. It's not impactful or substantial that he analyzed this, it reads like a critical high schooler. Basically, there's an enormous "so fucking what?" at the end of this like paragraph, that begs a purpose of even writing this. It disparages the weak on a system of meaningfulness that he extolls the opposite of. The man is a bad litote

>>10380034
Schopenhauer failed to understand the significance of a nation as a dialectical project. This is why nobody wanted to go to his lectures

>>10380083
This, also he is referring to those who see their nationality alone as their identity.

>>10380086
Funny enough this is also relevant to black people too

>>10380173
>This, also he is referring to those who see their nationality alone as their identity.

No he isn't, where are you getting this shit from

>>10380086
his biggest fanboy was Hitler

>>10380180
Did you not even read the image my dude, what would you say he is talking about?

>>10380186
Having pride in your nationality categorically. Schopenhauer was an edgelord who didn't take any half measures

>>10380086
It concerns pretty much every nationality, autismo-san.

>>10380196
You're conflicting who he was with the ideas he is known for. Nietzsche himself was not an Ubermensch but does that mean he can't talk about the ideals of one?

>>10380260
>the cheapest form of pride however is national pride.
that is the first sentence. he refer to any form of national pride. all national pride is identity with the nation.
im not this anon >>10380196 but hes right

>>10380273
Well I stand corrected

I don't know, seems kinda hypocritical considering he was awfully supportive of the Empire and actively encouraged soldiers to commit war crimes.

>>10380034
He's right.

>>10380092
The nation's interests don't serve your self-interests as an individual. When shit hits the fan, your individuality is utterly done with in order to protect the "nation." Anyone who cares about the nation above being some annoying relative you have to put up with at family gatherings simply lacks any self-interests that make them an individual, which is more or less what he's saying in the quote.

>>10380391
Of course but the philosophical alienation of "self-interests" is a profound misstep

>>10380478
To an extent. When you have grown enough as an individual, the "nation" becomes nothing but a burden to you, regardless if you grew from it. This is why we move out on our own rather than live with our parents forever. And the quote's message remains: pride in your parents is the earliest pride and thus the most childish and easiest one can develop.

>>10380478
What makes you say that? Misstep from what?

>>10380505
From the unalienated self which is inherently inseperable from the nation which produced it. The irony of Schopenhauers ego is that he identifies it solely in terms of which it is seperable from all other structures (the family, the state, the humanrace itself) which is infact a sort of inversed collectivism, a priority is placed on an imagined conception of self which is merely a negative abstraction from the collective itself in no way imminent to phenomenological experience or ontologically deserving of allegience anymore than the collective itself.

>>10380086
ITT: "Nazis are a nationality"

>>10380034

Entirely true

>>10380092
>>10380478
>>10380581
It's becoming quite easy to spot the pseud in /lit/ these days, you sure write a lot of big words to say nothing whatsoever, what function does bringing up "dialectical" in your sentence concerning the nation other than the fact of telling us you know about schopenhauer's disagreement with Hegel which cost him his lecture audience, "nation as a dialectical project" has no meaning.
Same applies for bringing up ontology and phenomenology when they have no context whatsoever in this discussion.
Pseuds like you are ruinning this board

National pride, or rather, cultural and ethnic "pride". Pride, because I am an extension of that same spirit that drove my ancestors forward towards greater things, and by honoring them I find pride in both the past and the future.
Why does love for your blood stop at cousins? Why does family end at grand-parents?
Evolution is "only" possible in small gene-pools; race-mixing, literally, holds back progress. Even our nature compels us to savor those who are like ourselves; people whom act and do like you do. It gives us trust and so safety and so growth.

>>10380636
Does choosing going one way compel you to destroy the other paths? Ergo, love for some does not beget a wish for enslavement, war, or hatred for whoever you do not love.

>>10380581
What does that have to do with being prideful of nationality?
> is merely a negative abstraction from the collective itself in no way imminent to phenomenological experience or ontologically deserving of allegience anymore than the collective itself.
Bugs...easy on the word salad

>>10380636
While it's good to maintain your bond with blood brothers, sometimes your blood brothers aren't in the nation you were born in. Depends on how much of an individual you are.

It's "true" if you're an atomized loser with no connection to your community.

>>10380636
>Evolution is "only" possible in small gene-pools; race-mixing, literally, holds back progress.
The entire fauna disagrees with you

>>10380751
community =/= nation

>>10380034
>national pride
>was actually way worse before the nation state

>>10380751
There's two ends to losing connection with the whole: being a loser and being a great individual.

>>10380763
You can also be both but it really depends on what you mean by a loser

>>10380780
Imagine a race. The loser has fallen behind the others, so far behind there is little to no hope that he will regain momentum and rejoin the others. The great individual meanwhile is way ahead of the rest and sees the finish line by himself without others by his side.

>>10380620
>>10380697
>Same applies for bringing up ontology and phenomenology when they have no context whatsoever in this discussion.

I was choosing my words carefully. The point is who we "are" is nowhere as simple as Schopenauer proposes. We get our names from others, we get our words from others, we have a notion that we are a being at all from others. Our desires, experience and thoughts are all firmly embedded in the nation we arrose from to the extent to which no child has a clue of this "problem" of nationality. The atomized ego is something that has to be learned rather than innate to how we experience life. Its far more of a philosophic construction than the nation itself.

You say that the nations interests are not your own because when in danger the nation will have you die to protect it. I ask why not die? Is there anything in this atomic self we have such love for that its any better to serve? Certainly Schopenhauer himself had no affection for what it gives us.
Rather it is through the love of what gives us rise externally that the self is truly experienced and fulfilled.

"I here express my opinion that a white colour in the skin is not natural to man, but that by nature he has a black or brown skin, just as had our forefathers the Hindus; consequently, a white human being has never sprung originally from the womb of nature, and therefore there is no white race, however much this is talked about, but every white human being is bleached. Driven into the north, which is strange and foreign to him, and in which he exists only like exotic plants, and like these requires a hothouse in winter, man became white in the course of thousands of years. The gypsies, an Indian race that immigrated about four centuries ago, show the transition from the complexion of the Hindus to our own. Therefore in sexual love, nature strives to return to dark hair and brown eyes as the archetype; but the white colour of the skin has become a second nature, though not so that the brown of the Hindus would repel us."

- Arthur Schopenhauer, The Metaphysics of Sexual Love

>>10380756
Where is the demarcation from your community to the nation? Can you identify it?

>>10380763
Great individuals do not exist outside of the circumstances of their community.

>>10380780
>You can be both.

Name an example.

>>10380794
And yet isn't the "great" individual only experiencing himself as great because of all those behind him. A man racing alone is nothing.

>>10380799
>Great individuals do not exist outside of the circumstances of their community.
Their greatness is also not appreciated by said community and thus separates them from it morally.

>>10380815
I didn't say otherwise. What's your point?

>>10380799
I know the people of my community directly which makes me able to care about them, I don't know all 60 million people living in my country for me to care about all of them, there is literally someone raping a woman and both happen to be your fellow countrymen, yet I doubt you would care

>>10380816
The number of losers who believe this to be true far outnumbers the great people this actually applies to. Other than a few artists, who would be an example of this sort of greatness?

>>10380821
Merely expanding

>>10380034
he’s quite right and its blatantly obvious the best humans do not give two damns about group affilitations. all superior beings are concerned with themselves, are self-regarding and self-possessed. Even thinking for one moment about how one is improved by a collective or responsible to others is a sign of weakness. Stirner was right about almost everything, its a shame pedophiles, drug addicts and anti-semites are his most devoted followers. All you on this board who feel even an ounce of pride for corporate entities built on oceans of blood consecrated by legislation, signs, rites of sacrifice like the military march are beyond saving. Really loathsome maggots is what you are

>>10380832
>I know the people of my community directly

This is stupid, no you don't.
Even in a small town you're unlikely to know a fraction of them

>>10380832
>I know the people of my community directly

You know everyone in your community? You must live in a very small and isolated place, or you define community in an unorthodox way.

Where should collective pride stop? Our apartment, town, local jurisdiction? The irony of statements like this are they usually come from people with humanistic impulses.

>>10380797
>Our desires, experience and thoughts are all firmly embedded in the nation we arrose from to the extent to which no child has a clue of this "problem" of nationality
Not the guys you were responding to, but how do you take such a leap in logic to associate desires and experience with the nation? sure we get our names and self affirmation from others, but those others are mostly people close to you whom you interact with in your life, that is no where near the abstract concept of an entire nation giving you those things.
Society does not imply "nation"

>>10380798
What is it with 19th century writers and their attempts to Orientalize Europe?

>>10380797
You can still be part of a Nation without taking its achievements as your own, he isn't saying completely disregard everything it stands for or things it produces. Just not associate it with who you are as an individual.

>>10380833
I could name most. I suppose Borgia is a more apparent example. Morally, most of the greats in history are very far removed from the masses, and if they dealt with each other directly, the masses would in most cases not appreciate them. It's only when historians have watered down great individuals into textbooks outlining their achievements and painting the picture in the proper light that the masses can finally accept these individuals into their lives, as crowning achievements of THEIR "culture," though it could be the farthest from the truth and the greats would all agree if they were to provide an honest answer on the matter that it was their immorality that led them to their greatness. Immorality requires a moral group to oppose, sure, but it IS an opposition fundamentally. The masses support the greats by being mediocre and repugnant to him. Disgust is the motivator towards greatness.

>>10380840
>all superior beings are concerned with themselves, are self-regarding and self-possessed.

aka pedophiles, drug addicts, and many antisemites

other than those sort of people, who is self possessed and self-regarding? those corporate ceos you hate?

>>10380848
>>10380859
>Same applies for bringing up ontology and phenomenology when they have no context whatsoever in this discussion.

I totally disagree. I view the only legitimate way of understanding a nation as a certain mode of consciousness, a shared sensibility about the world. It transcends through individual units and networks (or societies as you call them) into a common understanding.

This is where the pride of nations come from. If you are an Englishman and share the sensibility that made Shakespeare and Blake possible then you have every right to take pride in what they did so long as you fulfill the same English consciousness. So too for Melville for America, Joyce for Ireland. We are different minds but of one mind, in a common project of thought.
The true abstraction is when we identify nationality as an arbitrary fact of legalistic citizenship as >>10380859 which essentially renders the term meaningless.

>>10380754
This. You tend to get quick and drastic changes in the relative frequency of genes due to mostly chance in small populations, but this really does not lead to faster adaptation in any way.

>>10380883
>Certain mode of conciousness
Retarded psued

What do you think of this? Turns out he is full of weird thoughts.

>>10380854
It's caused by the death of Romanticism.

>>10380901
Do you disagree that the English have a different sense of humor than Americans, or that French have a different sense of aesthetic than Germans?

>>10380904
He's trying to justify why he's a cuck
>I-its not just me its everyone!

>>10380916
Aesthetics? Yes. Sense of humor however doesn't have to do with your nationality

>>10380923
>Sense of humor however doesn't have to do with your nationality

You can think your country is shit and list off the reasons, but still love it and want it to improve.

>>10380883
Taking a phenomenological approach to national pride is literally impossible since such a concept rests upon arbitrary meta-narrative divisions such as language and ethnicity which have no validity in a consciousness realm that "transcends through individual networks".
My point is that nation is nothing but a modernist construct that cannot be viewed in a higher "mode of consciousness"

>>10380879
>other than those sort of people, who is self possessed and self-regarding?
Leaders of all kinds (even the politicians), inventors, developers, business entrepreneurs, artists, philosophers, etc.

>>10380928
Show me otherwise, I am referring to present day when I say that, internet change it so it doesn't have to anymore. In shopys time sure I would agree that it does influence your sense of humor

>>10380945
>All you on this board who feel even an ounce of pride for corporate entities built on oceans of blood consecrated by legislation, signs, rites of sacrifice like the military march are beyond saving.

So the people in charge of implementing all of the things complained about here?

>>10380844
No one has been able to address my post it seems. I should have expected this of /lit/.

>>10380950
Visit /int/ for twenty minutes and tell me that. To be clear when I say different nations have different senses of humor I'm not saying that many things aren't universally funny but more like aesthetics the way in which you produce and respond to humor is predicated on the national mind.
Monty Python though enjoyed the world over could never have been created by anyone but Englishmen.

>>10380975
Can you tell people's nationalities in flagless boards based on their jokes alone anon?

>>10380975
I get what you mean but I could argue that has to do with how you were raised and less to do with nationality as a whole

>>10380959
I'll admit I wasn't that guy and didn't fully read his post. The individuals that start corporations are self-regarding and self-possessed; the corporation on the other hand is another thing.

>So the people in charge of implementing all of the things complained about here?
This is the case though. This is a public anonymous imageboard; it embodies the masses.

>>10380985
How you were raised is based on your nationality, you keep drawing categoricial divisions where none exist.

>>10380959
Revolutionaries, warriors, mercenaries, mystics, poets, writers, Monks, hermits, hunters, explorers, fur trappers, homesteaders, prospecters, horticulterists, anarchist performance artists, living works of art

>>10380933
Not that guy but
>language and ethnicity have no realm in consciousness
This is empirically false, numerous studies have said a study much. Also Wittgenstein. Language significantly alters consciousness, so that to speak a different language is to think differently, to perceive and interpret reality differently. If the nation is predicated on language, then yes the nation can be understood phenomenologically.

>>10380981
Irrelevant to my point. But yes it is very possible often to estimate

>>10380994
Yes I realized my mistake after posting that, I was going to correct myself but didn't really care

>>10381003
Maybe this is why so many known intellectuals in philosophy from the past were German descent. Could be something to the language that effects way of thinking compared to English. Just my guess though

>>10381028
yeah Germans like to talk a lot about nothing and murder millions of people for their death cult ancient nordic nigger smoke fire gods from the Caucasus mountains they’re a pretty garbage race

>>10381035
Well at least austrians still have something going for them. Not sure why you hate Germans so much desu

>>10381035
Oy vey we dindu nuffin

>>10380581
Making no sense

>>10380797
Where are you getting all this non-self bulldhit babble from, is it from others too lol?

>>10380034
The nation holds those values that are commonly shared. Thus, when the nation thrives, so does the individual .And if one feels that he is part of that contribution, since he strives towards its achievement, than how can one say that national pride is delusional?

>>10380090

Go fuck yourself for real, assblasted statist

>>10381505
>>10381521
Not an argument

>retards don't realize that by 'nation' Schopenhauer doesn't mean a country or a state but an ethnicity or a tribe, a 'people'
>this is low key antisemitism

I love based Schoppy

>>10381530
>statist
t. pic related

Eric Hoffer wrote about group psychology and the appeal of large social movements. Basically it attracts people with no individual merits.

See also: all contemporary political/social activism

>>10381528
there are no commonly shared values, values do not exist only preferred behavioral traits and these vary from sub-population to sub-population
>when the nation thrives, so does the invidual
i don't think many artists or mystics would agree with this or anarchists. So no. Your statement is demonstrably false
>And if one feels that he is part of that contribution, since he strives towards its achievement, than how can one say that national pride is delusional?
the one does not preclude the other, there is no entailing that national pride is not in fact delusional because one or many people feel it is not. the feeling of a mass does not change the truth value of a statement. The truth is never measured in mass appeal.
>>10381541
>he means what I want him to mean, all these intellectuals agreed with me
>he was actually an anti-semite
lol at you brainlet pseud cockroach

>>10381543

>le binary thinking

A small state that upholds the law and provides for national defense, that's it

>>10380904
If you read it too literally it might not make sense, but to me it makes sense. When he talks about the deepest recesses of woman's heart, he's talking about women's subconscious drive to mate with males most likely to propagate and be success for the human species, i.e sexual fitness and survival of the fittest. In fact the general concept he is getting at is one of evolutionary psychology which is impressive because this was written before Darwin's origin of species.

>>10381550

Eat a dick senpai. Schopenhauer was a proud antisemite. Read something besides Wikipedia. The German translates to nation in the sense of a tribe, not in the sense of country

>>10381560
>binary thinking

>>10380920

Schopenhauer was a playboy. Read a book you fuckwit

>>10381581
>Schopenhauer was a playboy

t. Schopenhauer
I'm a totally a Playboy too by the way, poon every day of the week

>>10381577

>I have no argument

>>10380593
Imagine being so retarded you don't realize Nazis were nationalists

>>10381574
>just making things up
>proud anti-semite
lol at you little roach monster

>>10380034
ITT: Redpilled losers backpedaling hard

>>10381528
>Thus, when the nation thrives, so does the individual
Causation vs. correlation. The individual holds values that are not commonly shared; that's what makes him an individual.

>>10380754
>The entire fauna disagrees with you
how does this sentence refute the former?
Almost all adaptation occurs when a small group of specimens breed with each other. You can't adapt to your environment if you constantly receive dna from a different environment.

>>10382034
Adapting to the environment isn't even a problem in first world countries.

>>10382034
Death is what drives evolution not breeding my man.
Species don't adapt to environments, they just fucking die if they don't got it.

>>10382420
By death you must mean not breeding, because breeding is the be all and end all of evolution, dummy.

>>10382505
dont be purposefully dense nigga, you know whats he is talking about.

>>10380034
Was Wagner a loser for being proud of being German?
was Nietzsche a loser for being proud of being Polish and not having a single drop of bad German blood?

>>10382411
>Adapting to the environment isn't even a problem in first world countries.
evolution doesn't have a goal
when we use the word "adapt", we mean positive mutation, the spread of positive mutations are only possible in "closed loops", if a good mutation doesn't go "around the block" it dissipates.
Mutation is also no-longer viewed as completely random, especially not with all the new epigenetic science (and it's not the only thing).
>>10382420
and you certainly fucking die if 50% of your genes are "designed" to live somewhere else/in a different way

Genes/IQ/temperament precedes culture.

>>10382505
Except even if you do manage to breed it doesn't mean shit if your kids die

>>10382543
>was Nietzsche a loser for being proud of being Polish

kek yeah considering that was basically just shitposting

>>10382522
he wrote breeding doesn't drive evolution..wtf how does he think we all got here

>>10381589
They weren't really nationalist, they had an obsession with genetic racial purity which some people confuse as nationalism. Nationalism is primarily a cultural pride although today it's been warped by some into thinking it's about skin colour.

>>10380034
This quote has been posted a dozen times this week give it a fucking break
shitt thread

>>10380904
>>10380920
Schopenhauer's right, and I do not see how he's justifying "why he's a cuck." If anything, he's justifying why he's a badass, a chad, a great man.

>>10382575
t. cuck on damage control

>>10382554
Was that really shitposting or did he lose his mind at that point?

>>10382583
What if insane people are just shitposting on a whole other level?

>>10382582

>>10382610
Delete this

>>10382595
shitposters should be lobotomized.