/lit/ - Literature

Obviously not

>>10367505
Why not?

>>10367509
coz its a painting

>>10367503
Of course she did.

its up in the air whether he actually did or not, may different ideas argued suggest it being Christopher Marlowe for one or the 27th earl of Oxford. I personally like to think it is Marlowe due to a lot of the similar themes and and a similar writing style (if you haven't already, read Doctor Faustus) and a lot of the shady things that happen and have been theorized about Marlowes life.In the end of the day it is like that of Homer, doesn't really matter if he did or not but its fun to think about.

>>10367503
Yes, but not the way you imagine it.

Anti-stratfordians are elitist shit stains who refuse to believe a guy who did not go to some fancy college had any artistic talent or sensibilities

>>10367503
>>10367650

All Anti-Stratfordian theories are made entirely of speculation and not a scruple of real evidence is ever offered.

>>10367503
as a man? yes. as the author of the plays? no.

>>10367966
pro-stradfordians are muh everyman shitstains who love to jerk off to the idea of the uneducated genius

>>10367975
pro-stratfordian theories are just as thin. except for the name on the folio there is nothing to connect the plays to stratford. he wasn't even literate enough to sign his own name.

>>10367999
>except for the name on the folio
Wasn't there also attributions by other writers? Not to mention shakes owned part of the theatre. It's more reasonable to say it was him than not, or some nobleman with literally no evidence.

>>10367618
^^

>>10368028
Most of the writing we have from him are signatures, most of which he spelled wrong. Take that for whatever you will.

>>10367503
>summons mary mccarthy
Here we go again

He never taught his kid to read or write apparently. You'd think you'd want to pass on the written craft to your kid, considering. The knowledge of the inner-workings of contemporary nobility wouldn't exactly be common place knowledge to commoners either. We can't really know, but I wouldn't exactly be surprised if he was a figurehead for another author.

>>10368028
there are oblique references to a playwright that people interpret as being him. but nothing direct.

and when i said he couldn't write his own name i was not being hyperbolic. there are 5 "authentic" signatures, and everyone is abbreviated and spelled differently, and written differently.

in theory i don't mind an everyman genius. but when you start to parse the knowledge that the author had to have, it just doesn't make sense.

>>10368037
Don't they say that was later on when he was getting syphilis and couldn't hold himself or something?

>>10368037
*all

>>10368037
>>10368062
They're called Breviographs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviograph
>but nothing direct.
But there is nothing, direct or indirect, that say it was someone definitively not Shakespeare

>>10368037
He did not spell his name "wrong". That was pretty much true of every literate person during the 16th century. It had nothing to do with education.

>>10368084
Agreed. Also, one of my professors had a very good theory at how Shaxper got so good at writing even through he lacked education: he played a rhetoric-themed drinking game with his friends. This is the most elegant conclusion I've heard.

>>10368115
>accuse others of believing made up arguments with no objective evidence
>believes made up arguments with no objective evidence
almonds, etc.

>>10368191
it explains why he was so good despite making up words and repeatedly using the same rhyme scheme for everything. tell me some more contrived shit about the earl of oxford

>>10368207
i don't argue FOR anyone specific. i just argue AGAINST stratford.

>>10367503
Yes. And he, not Looney or Marlowe or Bacon or Johnson, composed his plays and sonnets.

>>10368062
>here are oblique references to a playwright that people interpret as being him. but nothing direct.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44466/to-the-memory-of-my-beloved-the-author-mr-william-shakespeare

NIGGER WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUTTTTTTTTT

FUCKING NOTHING FUCKING NOTHING FUCKING NOTHING ALL FUCKING DAY

it was Francis Bacon

Read Manly P. Hall

Tons of Masonic ritual that only Bacon could've known in the plays.

>>10367650
Marlowe really does not sound like Shakespeare. It's much more bombastic, and frankly inelegant.

If you think Shakespeare is overrated,
>Otello
>Hamlet
>Macbeth
>King lear

>>10368056
That is somewhat suspicious. Of course right after he died, there was a prohibition on the theater too if I remember the plot of Anonymous correctly, so maybe the culture wasn't going in the direction for his children to continue his craft.

>>10368056
His surviving children were two girls - not gonna work. His one son which could have inherited the job died.

>>10367650
You have not read a single Marlowe play, have you? Read his Jew or Massacre, the difference in language and themes is profound. Marlowe is much bolder in later, and incomparably worse in the former. Plus he's gay. Same goes for Bacon. His writing style is completely different. There's some poetry of his, check it.

>>10368266
Why are you even in discussion then? Ether you have someone or get the fuck out. Besides your education theory has been disproved. It's based on Shak being a son of poor village glove seller. Pure fairytales. He was a son of wealthy merchant, so no accurate details, but absolutely nothing unusual about that. We know far less about anyone else in his troupe.

>>10368056
>his kids
His kid was probably Hamnet, the reason for his laments. The other ones, not necessary. He was obsessed with infidelity in his works, and he left his wife second best bed. Beds were super expensive in those days, the expensive ones were worth more than houses, so who got the best one? Now that's the thinking mans question. Not silly theories that are there only to sell book, nobody is seriously taking them seriously, except for some nimwiths that devour those books instead of actually taking the works in their own hands.

This whole point is pointless. There is only one sane answer. He was the main writer, only that explains elegies by his peers that were directed at him after his death. The thing that is still unsaid is how much input he took from others. There are some known collaborations, but prevailing current in serious academia is that a lot of his work had direct collaboration with his actors.

>>10368974
But we have plenty of record of Bacon's writing and it falls terribly short of Shakespeare's, same could be said of Marlowe.

Would the infinitely jealous, pretentious Jonson have written such a laudatory praise of His, had he any doubt of the authenticity? There is ambiguity in nearly all of authorship, yet there was no doubt of who wrote the plays in Shakespeare's day, as you could meet the man, and hear his speech and it was the speech of a man who could write Falstaff, Rosalind, Hamlet; the only platform for doubt is playing on innate historical ambiguity, solely because he's so often considered The Greatest Ever (similar theories surround Leonardo & Michel Angelo), and it's hard to imagine anyone, educated or not, holding such a title. We have good evidence that W.S. took basic Latin schooling - this should dispel any question of his literacy; there is also contemporary reference to him (such as in GWoW, and early mention of his Lucrece/Venus poems). The canon story is that he sought (and received) gifts of many powerful benefactors, thus linking him to courtly knowledge; as said previously in this thread, the question of his signatures has more to do with the impressionistic nature of syntax in his day (the authenticity of these signatures is also questioned - Bloom believes we have no extent hand-writings of the man.

Berryman believes that the dark lady sonnets are too bad to actually be Shakespeare's, have fun with that legitimate authorship question.

>>10368974
This. Hall says in one of Shakspere's plays the word Francis appears 33 times in one page. Obviously that is a Masonic, Rosicrucian number. Also Shakspere, who allegedly wrote that critique of general Jewry in The Merchant of Venice, sued his neighbor for like 25 cents. He doesn't mention folios in his will but does mention his prized silver bowl. Also his daughters were illiterate, Hall contends. Why didn't he teach them to read?

In my opinion, the Tempest is a Rosicrucian allegory for the regeneration of the human body and Prospero's epilogue beseeches each audience member to undergo this process, not get them to clap for the players.

>>10369809
>>10368974
>>10368250

so many fucking retards on the fucking internet with stupid fucking wrong opinions what the fuck

>>10369433
Ya, we have bacon’s writing and the similar philosophic interests and understandings check out, the same witty brilliant writing styles, he is the only person of that era that was smart enough to produce ‘Shakespeare’s’ work

>>10369838
I want to commend you on your scholarly, well-thought-out refutation of my argument. Well done comrade. I am now a stratfordian just don't be mean anymore.

>>10369881

posing a series of leading questions is not an argument

i don't think i've encountered anyone on /lit/ that knows what an argument actually is

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Philosophical_Logic/Arguments

>>10369891
>hurr not an argument

I will not even grace your link with a click.

>>10369891
i tip my fedora to you, my lord :)

>>10367503
Does "anyone" ever?

Everyone knows "Shakespeare" was just a pseudonym of an Arab poet

>>10369894

homie
it's LITERALLY not an argument
i'm calling a rotting piece of fruit what it is
smd desu lad

>>10369914
Ah yes. He was probably a Sufi affiliated with German Rosicrucianism.

>>10369919
the Illuminati you mean?

Can we put this shit to rest already? Historical and textual analyses show that Shakespeare wrote most of the works attributed to him. He did collaborate occasionally, but that's as far as the evidence shows we can go.

>>10369809
>coincidences and suppositions prove stuff
okay

>>10367999
>pro-stradfordians are muh everyman shitstains who love to jerk off to the idea of the uneducated genius
Nice strawman. Shakespeare wasn't uneducated, especially by the standards of his time. He went to a grammar school that taught Latin.

>>10367650
How does the Tempest reference events that occurred after Marlowe died?

>>10369859
Moron. AGAIN. Take up Bacon's poetry. And compare.

I'll accept that Shakesman didn't exist if you can explain something to me.

I went to England on a school trip, and we toured what was allegedly his childhood home, and what was allegedly his grave.

If he didn't exist, then who the fucks house and grave did we visit?

>>10371293
Nobody says he didn't exist, they say he didn't write the plays under his name.

>>10369917
no, DESU, there was only one question and the rest were statements written by NOT ME meant to inspire thought in your brainlet stratfordian mind.

AMA about Shakespeare

I take that back. Ask me anything except for 1 thing about Shakespeare because I'm writing a book about that 1 thing. I'll answer everything else.

>>10371489
Why did he stop writing?

>>10371709
Had made enough money. Lost passion for it. He tells you in The Tempest.

>>10371489
Was there ever a chance for him to write a long narrative poem like Spenser?

>>10371785
No. He wrote for money and status. But it depends on your perspective. Some believe Hamlet to be the greatest play, novel, and poem ever written.

>>10371489
What's the proof that the contemporary poets and authors that wrote about him knew him definitely as the writer?

>>10371886
I'm confused. Are you one of those people who thinks because we don't have a photograph of them together they can't have possible known each other? At least, knew of each other?

There are many contemporaries aries mention and are critical and condescending of Shakespeare.

>>10371936
Nah just that they praise him and his work but how do we know that they knew he wrote it and didn't unknowingly praise the work of whoever would supposedly be behind him.
Not anti-stratfordian just my retard brain thinks that this means something. Otherwise how to stop being retarded.

>>10371825
Do you have reccs that might be akin to a Shakespeare narrative poem? Honestly though I've never read the sonnets, I've heard people say it's the greatest work and others say they're awful

>>10369241
I meant he did compose his plays. I'm pro-Stratfordian.

>>10372112
Your only options are Venus and Adonis or Lucerne, really. I'm not a huge fan of the sonnets. Some are good, sure, but people mostly like them because they're short. He wrote them for money and to prove himself to financial backers and patrons. Not a lot of people know that.

>>10372168
*lucrece

>>10372094
Well Ben Jonson, the man who wrote the dedication in the first folio and was the one who called him a man of all time, was heavily critical of him, too, while he was alive. And Shakespeare's own company performed two of his plays.

Shakespeare didn't just become the GOAT with the first thing he put out. It happened over time as people rediscovered and reanalyzed his work. And remember, hearing and seeing and listening to a play is a different analysis than reading a play like literature. And his plays weren't even published in his lifetime.

>>10372290
People like Johnson were critical of his work sure but did he know Shakespeare personally or did he just go off the plays and sonnets he'd seen/read?

>>10372290
Pretty sure Hamlet was recognized as the GOAT during Shakes' lifetime.

>>10372315
It was damn popular but it wasn't recognized as the GOAT just yet.

>>10367664
I'm tinfoil-minded so I always wonder whether these images are first spread by highly misinformed SJWs or by smug rightists lampooning loony leftists.

>>10372406
this is what putin wanted

>>10372406
Image is from legit wewuzzers. It's just posted for laughs.

>>10372490
turning realpolitik into an eternal false flag, one protest group at a time

>>10372406
You'd be suprised by how common we wuzzing is, the breakfast club had on one of the most prominent black nationalists, the vid has 1.7 million views, and in it he casually references how Buddha was a black man, and that the ancient native americans were black

>>10372303

They were drinking buddies. Jonson visited Shakes at his home in Stratford.

>>10367503
It's actually me, I'm Shakespeare. Sorry guys.

>>10372920
No need to apologize, bro. It happens.

>>10368982
>DUDE KEK THE MOOR LMAO
>DUDE MY DAD'S DEAD SHOULD I KILL MYSELF LMAO
>DUDE MUH PROPHECY LMAO
>DUDE I'M GOING CRAZY LMAO

>>10372975
>caring about plot
Why do plebs always out themselves so willingly?

>>10372985
>not caring about plot
GUYS I READ MEANINGLESS WORDS LOOK AT HOW SMART I AM!!!!

>>10372123
wrong one quoted

>>10372290
>And his plays weren't even published in his lifetime.

Wait, what??? Folio wasn't. ALL Quartos were published in his lifetime, as were his poems. The later even under his own supervision.

>>10373002
There's no such thing as a good plot. They are the bare bones of a story, they have no depth. Plot is merely the vehicle for everything that can actually be great, and a great story can be made out of literally any plot.

>>10372406
>>10372490
>>10372587
>>10372605
>>10372617

>>10373004
I misspoke. I meant to say that all his plays weren't published in his lifetime. Many of those that were were copies transcribed by others.

All's Well That Ends Well, Antony and Cleopatra, As You Like It, Comedy of Errors, Coriolanus, Cymbeline, 1 Henry VI, Henry VIII, Julius Caesar, King John, Macbeth, Measure for Measure, The Taming of the Shrew, The Tempest, Timon of Athens, Twelfth Night, Two Gentlemen of Verona, and The Winter's Tale were not published until the first folio.

And the first folio was the first that was only of 1 author's work.

>>10373113
More likely you're failing some classes... Q discussion is more complicated than that. Modern view is that most of them weren't transcriptions, but early versions of plays, many of them directly from Shakespeare's drafts. Even Q1 Hamlet, the only one left of bad quartos, has recently seen advocates for it being an exact early version. I'd say that arguments for actors transcription are still strong, but you never know.

>>10367503
Yes, who else do you think wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey?

>>10373160
>More likely you're failing some classes...
lol. Okay, kiddo.

>>10372891
Source?