/lit/ - Literature

>>10237516
>radically contemporary

It's gonna suck, regardless of gender

Oh no

There's nothing new she can bring to the table. If I were her, I'd do something very stupid like remove all instances of rape and muh soggy knee, just so that retards like you give me free publicity.

Also sage for shit thread.

>>10237516
So don't fucking read it.

>b-but I really want a circle-jerk thread! Please pat me on the back
Yeah, it's shit. Now fuck off

>>10237516
Odyssey at a 6th grade reading level. Great. Kids could be learning it in Greek but public school teachers can't be bothered tbqh.

>implying you can improve on Fitzgerald
also, Fagles is for faggots and Pope for ponces

>>10237524
slovenlyjewishmanwincing.png
The school of resentment has won, haven't they?

>>10237565
I doubt they've burned the other versions.

>>10237546
>Pope for ponces
>Fitzgerald reader
This is why you never listen to the Fitzgerald readers, kids.

>>10237524
Absolutely awful. Fagles version looks a million times better holy shit.

>>10237516
>it's good because a woman did it!

I can't wait for the first Muslim to translate the Odyssey into English, then we'll really have diversity.

>>10237587
>muh heroic couplets
Don't "kids" anyone, you insufferable homosexual.

>>10237524

>>10237546
>implying you can improve on Fitzgerald
Fagles did you insufferable antiquarian.

>>10237524
I never thought I'd say this but she makes Fagles look brilliant...

>>10237524
It's not bad. She keeps a 10 beat metre which makes it fun to read unlike fagles whose is basically a (well done) prose translation.

Edit: why am I being downvoted?

>no mention of Lattimore

>>10237844
kek

>>10237794
>insufferable antiquarian.
Pleb spotted

Women are naturally more adept at translation because they are submissive and yielding to the authors style and meaning. This only applies when a woman translates a mans work though. Women women translations are notoriously awful

>>10237524
Fagles is so fucking bad

>>10237524
The man for wisdom's various arts renown'd,
Long exercised in woes, oh Muse! resound;
Who, when his arms had wrought the destined fall
Of sacred Troy, and razed her heaven-built wall,
Wandering from clime to clime, observant stray'd,
Their manners noted, and their states survey'd,
On stormy seas unnumber'd toils he bore,
Safe with his friends to gain his natal shore:
Vain toils! their impious folly dared to prey
On herds devoted to the god of day;
The god vindictive doom'd them never more
Ah, men unbless'd! to touch that natal shore.
Oh, snatch some portion of these acts from fate,
Celestial Muse! and to our world relate.

>>10237595
you're trying to push a poseur bitch boy from a more fleeting form over pope, son, nobody's coming on to you from any quarter. you have no taste and so much undeserved arrogance.

>>10237871
Nise

>>10237524
wtf I love Fagles now

>>10237524
It's been translated into woman-speak.

>>10237871

Pope is a fucking genius

>>10237524
Tell me, Muse, of the man of many ways, who was driven
far journeys, after he had sacked Troy’s sacred citadel.
Many were they whose cities he saw, whose minds he learned of,
many the pains he suffered in his spirit on the wide sea,
struggling for his own life and the homecoming of his companions.
Even so he could not save his companions, hard though
he strove to; they were destroyed by their own wild recklessness,
fools, who devoured the oxen of Helios, the Sun God,
and he took away the day of their homecoming

>>10238102
Eh

>>10237524

>>10237871
I fucking hate Pope's translation. Shit like this encourages shitty poetry to be written.

>>10237524
You know this White Sharia stuff is starting to sound like a pretty good idea.

>>10238508
>Tell me about a complicated man
>a complicated man
>complicated man

>>10237524
never mind which is a more accurate translation into contemporary english, I hate women!

>>10237524
Hahahaha what the fuck is this.

>a complicated man

>>10237524
This shit is hilarious

>>10237516
>A woman translating the Odissey is considered an interesting news in Amerilard land

>>10237524
In the article she goes through her reasoning for the first line so i was expecting some thought to put into it and she goes with 'complicated' of all things.

>>10237524

this shit doesnt even rhyme lol

Rate how complicated you are
im like a 6.7/10

>>10238566
roasties get out

>>10237524

>>10237524
APOLOGIZE TO FAGLES /lit/

>>10238712
Fagles is fun as fuck
The people who don't like the translation are contrarians who flunked their classic's seminar

>>10237527
>give me free publicity
wilson detected

Tell me, Muse, of the man of many turns, who was driven
far and wide after he had sacked the sacred city of Troy.
Many were the men whose cities he saw, and learnt their minds,
many the sufferings on the open sea he endured in his heart,
struggling for his own life and his companions' homecoming.
Even so he could not protect them, though he desired it,
since they perished by reason of their own recklessness,
the fools, because they ate the cattle of the Sun, Hyperion,
and he took away the day of their homecoming. Tell us, too,
goddess daughter of Zeus, starting from where you will.

Anthony Verity lets Homer speak for himself.

>>10237524
>who he met

Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story
of that man skilled in all ways of contending,
the wanderer, harried for years on end,
after he plundered the stronghold
on the proud height of Troy.

>>10237524
T.E. Lawrence translated the Odyssey? T.E. Lawrence, as in, Lawrence of Arabia/Seven Pillars of Wisdom T.E. Lawrence....?

>>10239051
Correct.

>>10237516
Seems awful to be a contemporary woman writer. People will laud you as something you're not, "radical"...its the worst sort of marketing. She translated the Odyssey, she's not a radical...FUCK

>>10239055
wtf, I had no idea at all of this

>>10238189
It's 300 years old dummy

An absolutely dull, lifeless translation.

>>10237524
>i want the 3rd grade audience

>>10237516
>>10237524
I'm not saying that her translation is a work of poetry, but its simple and straightforward - which has its own merits. If you have someone entering literature for the first time, why not recommend Wilson's translation? The unexperienced reader gets the narrative of the Odyssey in plain and uncomplicated prose/poetry. If you want the heights of the literary experience, you will come back to Homer - as many have - and you can read another, better translation.

>>10237871
I absolutely love Pope. He's the handsdown master of the couplet - even if some seem a bit weak or dated.

>>10238189
You just have an inherent bias against AABB - don't get me wrong, so do I, but Pope has some knockout couplets in the Essay of Man and a lot of his other works.

>>10239057
I agree. Still, is there anything more radical (which comes from the Latin 'radix', meaning root (related to the word radish)) than going back to the 'roots' of the tradition?

>>10237524
This is the ultimate test of plebness, woman-fearing retards who think Fagles is remotely readable.

>>10237871
i think it was samuel johnson who said, "that's beautiful, but it's not homer."

>>10239038
FUCKING THIS! AHHHHHH

>>10238566
Anon it's awful what are you trying to do

>>10237524
>Translating "πολὐτροπον" into "complicated"

Absolutely disgusting.

>>10239400
>πολὐτροπον
Why are there math symbols in there?

>>10239406
>Why are there math symbols in there?
c/d o lemma to a theorem u tau function resistance coefficient o c/d o v

>>10239400

It's in the dictionary.
That makes it ok.

>>10239415
>It literally says that when referring to Odisseus can mean only those three things

>>10239415
It's still a horrible translation to use for epic poetry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvVWiDsPWQ&

>Lattimore

>>10239415
>cannot into dictionaries
It says right there in your image that it means complicated when in reference to diseases.

>>10239038
>>10239387
The goal of this translation is to be modern and accessible. Whether you like it or not, whom is outdated.

>>10239362
>woman-fearing
skinnyfat numale spotted

>>10237849
Lattimore is fucking garbage.

>>10237865
Honest question, why? I’m trying to pick which translation I want to read first. So, why do you think Fagles is bad?

>>10239596
>bitch, rap on that twisted-up nigga
god, i love things that are modern and accessible.

>>10238189
you're a pleb and you dont know anything about poetry. you lack aesthetic sensibility and you will never amount to anything. kys.

>>10239456
Yass

>Suddenly /lit/ love Fagels
Fagels is shit I can't belive that I wasted time to read his translation. Read Fitzgerald instead.

>>10237524
I'm not sure why I thought of this but her translation reminds me of sawtooth wave when Fagle's a sinusoidal.

>>10237524
>appeals to the modern audience

>>10239596
>The goal of this translation is to be modern and accessible
No it's not
>>10239620
Fagles uses contemporary phrasing and "smooth" verse that makes it read like a dumbed down prose rendition.
Lattimore is terse but accurate
Fitzgerald is more poetic
Pope is a poetic reinterpretation in couplet that is part of the english canon in it's right
Chapman is kind of a meme because of Keats
There are screencaps of Lattimore, Pope, Fagles and Butler (prose so disregard) ITT

Fagles
>>10237524
Lattimore
>>10239473
Pope
>>10237871

>>10239646
why? Can you give me a couple of reasons, please? Not to be annoying, I am actually interested. I am >>10239620

>>10239620
Fagles uses contemporary phrasing and "smooth" verse that makes it read like a dumbed down prose rendition.
Lattimore is terse but accurate
Fitzgerald is more poetic
Pope is a poetic reinterpretation in couplet that is part of the english canon in it's right
Chapman is kind of a meme because of Keats
There are screencaps of Lattimore, Pope, Fagles and Butler (prose so disregard) ITT

Fagles
>>10237524 #

Lattimore
>>10239473 #

Pope
>>10238102

>>10239676
Fuck wrong one
This is Pope>
>>10237871

>>10239676
So, how does that make Fagles bad? I don’t see how this is bad if you haven’t read any other translations?

>>10239676
Pope's version reads like tipycal neoclassical wankery
Not that the other are better
Just read it in greek

>>10239701
but how do I learn classical Greek or even Latin? I'm terrible with languages already, so the idea of learning one that's not even used anymore is just daunting

>>10239647

Yes. This is good.

>>10239698
>>So, how does that make Fagles bad?
... see ->
>Fagles uses contemporary phrasing and "smooth" verse that makes it read like a dumbed down prose rendition.
It's the pleb version, no doubt
>>I don’t see how this is bad if you haven’t read any other translations?
What? That literally doesn't make any sense, if you try this hard to justify Fagles just do it.
>>10239701
Plot twist the Greek version isn't good I hear it's worse than the OT, w/o KJV embellishment

>>10239714
You don't have to

>>10239698
The honest answer is, all of the translations are worth reading, based on the research I've done. people who completely shit all over other translations have probably just read a single translation. Just read some of the excerpts posted ITT and decide. I've only read Fitzgerald due to his being praised on /lit/ and I greatly enjoyed. I plan on reading Pope when I next pick Homer up.

>>10237516
>radically contemporary
Oh boy here we fucking go. Did she ever consider that something written thousands of years ago probably SHOULDN'T be re-written in a radically contemporary manner? You know; it probably loses a little something something because of it wouldn't you think?

>>10237524
And here's the fucking proof. Jesus this is bad. It's literally just dumbed down. There's no insight here or artistic flair. All this does is make me think that in a few years we'll have 'Odyssey - Emoji version', or 'Odyssey - Ebonics version'.

Don't forget Lombardo

>>10239724
>all of the translations are worth reading

Even this one?

>>10239757
>implying South Africans are people and can publish books

>>10237524
>women

>>10237524
Tell me, O muse, of that ingenious hero who travelled far and wide afterhe had sacked the famous town of Troy. Many cities did he visit, and manywere the nations with whose manners and customs he was acquainted; moreoverhe suffered much by sea while trying to save his own life and bring hismen safely home; but do what he might he could not save his men, for theyperished through their own sheer folly in eating the cattle of the Sun-godHyperion; so the god prevented them from ever reaching home. Tell me, too,about all these things, O daughter of Jove, from whatsoever source youmay know them.

>>10237524
how can /pol/ look at shit like this and think that Jews are the real problem? Anti-femitism is the reddest pill there is

>>10237524
I was going to write a "funny" dumbed down version of this but realized that I can't dumb down this retarded shit any more than she already has.

>>10239676
>prose so disregard
Why would it even matter if it's a fucking translation of a 3000 year old text? If I were an alien, this planet would be marked for destruction after reading your inane comment on Butler.

>>10239736
>Odyssey - Ebonics version'.
I'll give it a shot.

Holla at me bout a whack ass nigga.
Who got all fucked up and wrecked my nigga Troy's crib.
And spend all mothafucking day tryna get his homies back to the projects.
But he bitched out and had to hold this big ass L.
Couldn't stop em from robbing that Popeyes and now they all upstate doing five to ten.
Take it way back and tell me bout this nigga.

>>10237524
>Tell me about a complicated man

>>10239788
I have ascended

>>10239784
Sorry about cursing here, I'm just literally shaking right now. No one should spake ill of Butler, no one.

>>10238680
>>10238680
A 10/10 of a 4/10

>>10238887
This is not a poem

>>10239788

>>10239788

>>10238673
Neither does the Odyssey nigger

>>10239788
This is great I would unironically read the full translation

>>10237524
How does she justify this translation? There must be a reason why she wrote it in the first place.

>>10239736
>'Odyssey - Emoji version'

>“I’m not a believer,” Wilson told me, “but I find that there is a sort of religious practice that goes along with translation. I’m trying to serve something.”

Confirmed for serving Satan?

>>10239915
Still better than Fagels

>>10237534
Yeah, wouldn't want to distract this board from the important work it typically does, right?
Bite a cinder block, buddy

I present to you: The Odyssey as translated by Google.

my husband said to me, my lord, my mistress, and many many
was born, after Throes the son of Pontus;
many human beings, no one, no law,
many of them are under their feet,
And they are in the midst of the wilderness.
but thou hast said,
for this reason, it has been disturbed,
toddlers, and to their families
Origin: this bottled wine was delicious.
the gods, the goddess, the god Zeus, even the gods.

>>10237538
>Odyssey at a 6th grade reading level. Great.

Unironically this.

>>10239919
>>10237516
>>10237524
Oooooohhh oooooohhHHHHH OHHHHHHH my aching head, anons
The stark, serious, "I'm a thinker" photographs
The vacuous, completely useless translation
"THE FIRST WOMAN" in the article header

Ohhhhhhhhh brothers, hold me up before I swoon. Pox and piss upon me, this is so perfect

Here's some of her work:

Slut-Shaming Helen of Troy
If we blame her for the Trojan War, what does it say about us?
https://newrepublic.com/article/117430/helen-troy-beauty-myth-devastation-ruby-blondell-reviewed

Women are a fucking meme.

>>10239980
>https://newrepublic.com/article/117430/helen-troy-beauty-myth-devastation-ruby-blondell-reviewed
DUDE
AHHHHHHHHHHHH NO NO NO NO NO NO
LOOK AT-
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>10239980
Gorgias took this same position though

>>10239988
>>10239988
citation pls

>>10239810
What then constitutes a poem, O Sage?

I thought that one of the core beliefs of "postmodernism" in academics revolved around coupling the art with its context, i.e. considering who wrote it, when, and under what circumstances. Why, then, do we need to rework a poem of antiquity to better suit our own context, while displacing its own? English hasn't really changed that much in the last few hundred years, at least not to the point of illegibility.

>>10239990
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgias#Encomium_of_Helen
Granted, it was probably just a demonstration of rhetoric, but it did raise some good points

>>10240016
Didn't post-structuralists like Kristeva make the claim that the drive to distill contexts is a futile symptom of capitalist translation of process to product?

>>10239970
This shit has always driven me nuts. Why do they stratify firsts for gender? Does it really matter if a woman has done something that's already been done by multiple men? (And been done for hundreds of years at that) Why not make a big media event when the first female latino/asian/negro octogenarian translates the Odyssey too?

>>10239980
Who blames Helen for the Trojan War? A tragedy is often about competing virtues. Menelaus just wants his wife back, Paris is just entranced by Helen and was tricked by the goddesses, and Helen was born exceptionally attractive. There's no blame to go around.

>>10239980
>calling out adultery is "slut-shaming"
We literally live in a culture where chastising someone for committing adultery is less acceptable than actually committing adultery. We live in an inverted moral paradigm.

So I just picked up Chapmans version of the odyssey for €2 in a used book shop
Is it worth reading bearing in mind that it's my first time reading the odyssey

>>10240192
good enough for keats good enough for you faggot

>>10240018
He actually gives a really thorough defense of Helen, like this guy >>10240018 said, it's a work of rhetoric, but he makes a decent case.

Source - text 11 on this page:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/app/app77.htm

>>10239596
Whom is not out dated just because not everyone uses it.

Who cares at all. Everybody under the sun has made their own translation of the Odyssey, and they always put some new twist on it. Fagles' translation doesn't cease to exist just because this lady decided to make her own.

>>10240271
The "it's in their nature" argument can be used to justify nearly every transgression imaginable

Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story
of that man skilled in all ways of contending,
the wanderer, harried for years on end,
after he plundered the stronghold
on the proud height of Troy,

He saw the townlands
and learned the minds of many distant men,
and weathered many bitter nights and days
in his deep heart at sea, while he fought only
to save his life, to bring his shipmates home.
But not by will nor valor could he save them,
for their own recklessness destroyed them all-
children and fools, they killed and feasted on
the cattle of Lord Helios, the Sun,
and lie who moves all day through heaven
took from their eyes the dawn of their return.

Of these adventures, Muse, daughter of Zeus,
tell us in our time, lift the great song again.

Is there any modern version of Pope? The rhyming couplets make it fun to read out loud, but a lot of the rhymes feel forced, especially to modern ears

>>10240292
How could the blame rest solely on Helen? Even if we accept that she chose, under the influence of love, to go to Troy, and was not kidnapped, then the blame also rests on Paris, and on the Greeks who chose to make war on Troy for the sake of one woman. Helen wasn't the one who sacked Troy and put it's citizens to the sword.

Do posts about how absolutely fucking retarded /lit/ is go on /qa/ now?

SPEAK, MEMORY—
Of the cunning hero,
The wanderer, blown off course time and again
After he plundered Troy’s sacred heights.

Speak
Of all the cities he saw, the minds he grasped,
The suffering deep in his heart at sea
As he struggled to survive and bring his men home
But could not save them, hard as he tried—
The fools—destroyed by their own recklessness
When they ate the oxen of Hyperion the Sun,
And that god snuffed out their day of return.

>Lombardo

>>10240164
do you have a workplace?

>>10240362
The blame can be shared. Helen fucked up by cucking someone as powerful as Menelaus. Menelaus fucked up by putting too much stock in a single pussy. The Greeks who followed him fucked up by using the conflict as a excuse to plunder Troy. Paris fucked up by messing with a powerful man's woman. It was a series of fuck ups on everyone's part.

>>10240376
Yeah, but it's almost all men so interpersonal gossip isn't really a thing

>>10239961
Th start of the Bible by google translate:

1 In the beginning of the month of Bereshit was God, but there was no sign of the name of the people, and the people of the land.
2 And the earth shall be filled with bread, and it shall be his bread, and it shall be his bread, and the bread of the bread shall be given to him, and the bread of the bread shall not exceed the breadth of the bread.
3 And the Lord said unto him, Behold, there is no light, and there is no light.
4 And God saw that the LORD had given birth to the LORD, because he had been crucified, and the LORD had lost it, but they were not, and they were not, and they were not the ones that were in your possession.
5 And God called upon God, O Lord, to see the light of the day, and behold, it is not in the name of the Lord, nor the Lord, nor the Lord, nor the Lord.
6 And the Lord said unto them, Behold, thou shalt be the Lord of the house of the children of the house, and the house of the children, and the house of the children, and the house of the children of the land.
7 And God made the LORD the Lord, and he gave birth to him, and he did not receive anything.

>>10240392
no wonder

>>10237524
She fucked up big times

>>10239051
that's actually the one i read, it was pretty good as i remember
i only read it by chance because it was the one that i happened to buy second hand from oxfam

This isn't about Super Mario Odyssey
OSfrog REEEEEE

>>10238139
Just how bad was this asshole? I read posts about him being the worst Roman Emperor everywhere. What did he do to earn it?

>>10239362
>a woman makes a shit translation
>this gets pointed out
>‘you must all just hate women!’
Go back to R*ddit.

>>10239632
i'm better at poetry than you bud

>>10239980

>>10240393
>And the earth shall be filled with bread, and it shall be his bread, and it shall be his bread, and the bread of the bread shall be given to him, and the bread of the bread shall not exceed the breadth of the bread.
kek

>>10240509
the entire thread doesn't get beyond the first few lines as quoted in a fucking tnr article. no mention of any of the rest of the book, no discussion of original greek (which no one here can read), no theories of translation, nothing more than "complicated!? really!? lel reddit"

i love thomas pynchon
i love thomas pynchon
i love thomas pynchon
i love thomas psychon
i love thomas psychon
i love thomas simpson
i lvoe thomas pynchon
i love thomas pynchon

toasting in epic bread

With the number of translations out there it takes a fair bit of arrogance to translate it. But you can tell she has no reverence for the text.

>>10240640
more like unfair bit amirite!?!?

>>10240620
You don’t have to see the rest of the translation to compare the opening lines and find her’s lacking.

>>10240656
that's a good belief for someone who is never going to read it to hold

>its not lacan any meat
>and thats what real women need
>bwuahahahaha
>bwuahahahahahahaha
>bwuahahahahahaha
>not lackin any meat

>all these people calling her a meme and saying it's a shit translation

How many of you can actually read the original greek?

>>10237516
>The FIRST woman to translate the odyssey

In over 2000 years of translations, there's no way this statement is true

>>10240718
I think they mean into English, which is still crazy.

>>10240718
never underestimate the lack of female initiative.

>>10240718
>>10240720
It's simply another way for them to push their agenda they on't actually care about literature of any kind

>>10240620
you don't even have to read it to know it's bad, you just have to look at her smug retard face and read the journalism article about how she's the first woman who did *thing*
nothing against women but if there was one who did something worthy of respect she wouldn't go glorify herself purely for having ovaries in some middlebrow rag when announcing it

>>10240720
I still don't believe it

I MIGHT believe "first widely publicized and openly scrutinized" translation, but even that claim requires a trip to my friendly local reference librarian

>>10240718
Rosa Calzecchi Onesti translated it in Italian in 1990. It is also a very good translation, very close to Homer and better than the neoclassical wankery that is our older "canonical" translation (Monti's)
Anglophones are just backwards

>>10237524
Tell me about a complicated man, why does he wear the beard?

>>10239676
Is that Gustav Moreau?

>>10239596
>whom is outdated.

How is it "outdated"

Next you'll be telling me that "effect" is outdated because everyone uses "impact" now.

I hate this world so goddamn much.

>>10239596
Leave and don't come back.

>>10240959
Gonna start reposting this perfect

lmknqfong

>>10240399
How often do women genuinely shame other women for finding another boyfriend?

>>10240959
This comic has single-handedly revived my hope in /lit/. I love you guys.

>>10240164
Fucking hell isn't that the truth

>>10239413
>tau
>not 2(c/d)
Step up yr math game

>>10237524
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

>>10239605
>believing this

>>10237524

It's as if she took two semester of intro ionic greek and decided to translate on her own.

https://archive.is/AnzgO

"The list of English translators of Homer’s Odyssey includes an illustrious bunch of names every student of literature knows: Thomas Hobbes, Alexander Pope, William Cowper, Samuel Butler, T.E. Lawrence, Robert Fitzgerald, Robert Fagles…. Should you look further into the history of Homeric translation, you might notice one thing immediately. All of Homer’s translators, to a man, have been men. None have, presumably, approached the text from a woman’s point of view.

But what would that entail? Perhaps a certain critical distance, suspicion even—an unwillingness to readily identify with or admire the hero or credit the tales of his exploits at their supposed value. As Margaret Atwood writes in the introduction to The Penelopiad—her reimagining of the tale from Penelope’s perspective—“The story as told in The Odyssey doesn’t hold water: there are too many inconsistencies.”


Atwood is not a translator. Prolific poet and scholar Anne Carson, on the other hand, has published acclaimed translations of Sappho, Euripides, and Aeschylus. Of the art, she writes, “Silence is as important as words in the practice and study of translation.” Though Carson calls the observation “cliché,” the experience of another rare female classics translator in a field overcrowded with men bears out the importance of silence in a personal way."

>>10241164
>None have, presumably, approached the text from a woman’s point of view.
Implying this has any value

>>10241183
Not to mention also wrong, as there have been a lot of translations by women (although none in the English language).

>>10241164
>Thomas Hobbes translation
Wasn't aware this existed, issit good?

>>10239777
Because Jews lead feminism.

>>10241164
>Thomas Hobbes
WHAT

>>10241210
>>10241215
goddess sing what woe the discontent
Of Thetis’ son brought to the Greeks; what souls
Of heroes down to Erebus it sent,
Leaving their bodies unto dogs and fowls;
Hobbes1839: 5Whilst the two princes of the army strove,
King Agamemnon and Achilles stout.
That so it should be was the will of Jove,
But who was he that made them first fall out?
Apollo; who incensed by the wrong
Hobbes1839: 10To his priest Chryses by Atrides done,
Sent a great pestilence the Greeks among;
Apace they died, and remedy was none.

eh, better than Fagles of course

>>10241221
>discontent

It's shit.

>>10239777
And to make it /lit/ related have this goodreads link.
https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/26492706-jennifer-jacobs

>>10241215
>>10241210
Tell me, O Muse, th’ adventures of the man
That having sack’d the sacred town of Troy,
Wander’d so long at sea; what course he ran
By winds and tempests driven from his way:
That saw the cities, and the fashions knew
Of many men, but suffer’d grievous pain
To save his own life, and bring home his crew;
Though for his crew, all he could do was vain,
They lost themselves by their own insolence,
Feeding, like fools, on the Sun’s sacred kine;

>>10241252
Which did the splendid deity incense
To their dire fate. Begin, O Muse divine.

>>10241221
the insistence early translators had on using the Roman names annoys the fuck out of me

>>10241252
I kinda like this one

>>10241272
I do too actually
"All he could do was vain" seems like a last-ditch-effort rhyme but other than that I think it's pretty

>>10241252

Much better than Fagles. Not as good as Lattimore.

Not bad.

>>10241164
>leaf women

Uhh what's with all the hate on Fagles
>muh Homer must be read in archaic 19th c. vernacular
The whole point is that the language is easy and vulgar, because it is an oral poem

>>10237524
>Complicated man
Stop the press: brainlet woman detected.

>>10239961
>Origin: this bottled wine was delicious

>>10242199

>>10241252
Well, fuck, now I want to read Hobbes' translation of the Odyssey. Anybody have it?

>>10242209
dont you fucking meme me boy i will kill you

>>10237516
From the article

When I first read these lines early this summer in The Paris Review, which published an excerpt, I was floored. I’d never read an “Odyssey” that sounded like this. It had such directness, the lines feeling not as if they were being fed into iambic pentameter because of some strategic decision but because the meter was a natural mode for its speaker. The subtle sewing through of the fittingly wavelike W-words in the first half (“wandered ... wrecked ... where ... worked”) and the stormy S-words that knit together the second half, marrying the waves to the storm in which this man will suffer, made the terse injunctions to the muse that frame this prologue to the poem (“Tell me about ...” and “Find the beginning”) seem as if they might actually answer the puzzle posed by Homer’s polytropos and Odysseus’s complicated nature.

>>10242263
>W-words
>wrecked

>>10239788

So if I put up a google doc with the full text, would you guys want to try and "translate" the whole thing?

>>10237524
Oh no

>>10237516
>tfw can read the original text

>>10237524
>Άνδρα μοί έννεπε, μούσα πολύτροπον means sing to me muse, about the crafty man
>she translated it in the most 2nd grade way possible
Could be worse I guess.

>>10237871
Literally not Homer
t. Greek

>>10239456
>based podium arts
Ah, are you a man of Greece as well?

>>10239714
>how do I learn classical Greek
Learn Modern Greek then go backwards.

>>10243320
Homer translations I think are more open to interpretation because of the oral traditions we inherited the written epic from. Bards didn't sing the same song, they just followed certain metrical rules and the basic story line.

A lot of translations may not be very literal at all, but I think tuning the epic to your own vision follows the tradition of the bards. Obviously some are better than others, but it's very cool to see modern renditions in iambic pentameter, heroic couplets, prose, etc.

>>10240705
>How many of you can actually read the original greek?
Do you want me to read you an example?

>>10243343
go at it

>>10243342
Well yeah, but you should stick to the original when translating, since this is the version we have now.
I mean Pope's version is a bit overly descriptive.

I guess that if women were treated differently than epic poets in the Greek poleis, there had to be a reason.

>>10243345
I will do it in Modern greek pronounciation for my sanity's sake.
the original text
>οὐ γάρ πω τέθνηkεν ἐπὶ χθονὶ δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς,
ἀλλ᾿ ἔτι που ζωὸς kατερύkεται εὐρέι πόντῳ
νήσῳ ἐν ἀμφιρύτῃ, χαλεποὶ δέ μιν ἄνδρες ἔχουσιν
ἄγριοι, οἵ που kεῖνον ἐρυkανόωσ᾿ ἀέkοντα.
Don't expect rhythm or anything ok?
https://vocaroo.com/i/s1OC1Fndmpym

>>10241221
>>10241252
somebody's lying

>>10243376
dang that is cool

>>10243376
good job, self-learned or academic, (currently learning Modern Hebrew at uno, pretty fun desu)

>>10243431
None, I am Greek lmao

>>10243411
Do you not know the difference between the Iliad and the Odyssey?

>>10243434
Motherfuckers, you guys are cheating on Ancient Philosophy with your additional skill to Greek.
but still big love for having ancient language

>>10243443
Don't worry, nobody knows Ancient Greek here nor do they read the ancients.

>>10239456

It constantly amazes me how many completely different sounding languages we have.

>>10239788

>>10240959
>wine dark sea

>>10243315
>crafty
nice try.
it means "man of many turns," which is idiomatic to ancient greece and does not directly translate. it could mean Odysseus turned things to his favor through either intellect, cunning, or deviousness. "crafty" could work there. it could also mean that his fate has turned many times, as in by the gods. which is explicitly true, that's the whole fucking story.

The original text is ambiguous as to what Homer meant. Hence "complicated." I don't like the way it reads, either, but her reasoning is sound. And if any of you had bothered to read the article (you know, reading? that thing /lit/ never does?) she admits she's trying to trigger all the butthurt you've released ITT.

>>10240912
kek

>>10243499
>let me tell you about your language
It is a euphemism for "smart, crafty". Literally google it, you pompous fucking prick.
It also checks out with Odysseus' character.

>>10243499
desu her translation would be a decent first read for people in middle school or early high school

>>10243499
Do you know how I know you are a woman/gay?

>>10243507
>>10243499
>Implying it couldn't be both

>>10239383
It was acclaimed by Samuel Johnson as "a performance which no age or nation could hope to equal" (although the classical scholar Richard Bentley wrote: "It is a pretty poem, Mr. Pope, but you must not call it Homer.").

>>10243451
>Don't worry, nobody knows Ancient Greek here

Μῶρος εἶ.

>>10243562
μωρός* REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Αβροβάτη.

Remember

>>10243570
I've learned Attic my friend, and in Athens it had a circumflex on the omega.

It obviously doesn't anymore but it did then.

'complicated' doesn't capture the solar flavour of the epithet

>>10243629
In standarised ancient it was μωρός iirc
But there are like 50 versions so eh

>>10243643

Related

>Goddes
Goddamn anglos

>>10243648
>In standarised ancient it was μωρός iirc

True.

>>10238534
*plays music*
I'm a melancholy man. That's what I am.

>>10242309
this would actually be a GREAT /lit/ project.
Of course nobody here knows Greek, but whatever.

Sticky?

>>10243736
I could do it
I am too lazy though lol

>>10243643
>>10243659
*plays music*
Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'!

>>10243741
But certainly, we don't all have to know Greek in full? If each person just learned pieces, it would sort itself out, no?

>>10243315
The first line of the Odyssey is way easier to read properly if you remove Homer's meter.

So instead of this:

>Άνδρα μοί έννεπε μούσα, πολύτροπον

You can write it like this instead:

>μούσα(NOM) έννεπε μοί(DAT) πολύτροπον 'ανδρα(ACC).

>Muse, sing to me of the many-turned man.

That said, "Complicated" is a retarded translation for epic poetry.

>>10243736
God, wouldn't that be poetic, though? To have THE myth, originally spun from a thousand anonymous voices, codified by one man, turned back to the masses and translated sine nomine?

>>10243525
>poetry
>no double meanings
*shoots self*

>>10243752
πολύτροπος means 2 things in Modern Greek and 4 things in Ancient. In that particular line there is no possible way to discern what particular meaning is true since literally everyone applies. Of course Homer (or whoever wrote it) knew about this and deliberately used this ambiguous word, like many writers are oft to include in their works for that sweet artistry point.
I really am stubborn on the subjects only because the Greek translations use the "crafty" meaning AND the "much travelled" one, with a TN saying it is ambiguous..

>>10243754
indubitably

>>10243769
I know it's ambiguous, but I would argue that when you know the book is epic poetry, you should translate it in a specific way.

If it was a translation of a novel in modern Greek I wouldn't be such a stickler.

>>10243769
To reinforce my statement, Kazantzakis, who has translated the Odyssey from Ancient to Modern, slyly uses πολύτροπος, leaving it up to the reader.

>>10243769
It baffles me how even on a lit board, people have such poor analytical skills so as to think if they see no complexity, there is no complexity. I think this is the real reason people have lost faith in God. They read the bible the same way and think it is a boring story that says nothing for our times. They are reading stories as though they are historical accounts, when really they should be treating even historical accounts as just a genre of story.

>>10243788
Yes you should, but which is the correct one is a very touchy subject. I tend to lean on the crafty side because it fits Odysseus characterisation from the Illiad. But really, you can see that he used it because it connects the two basic characteristics of Odysseus; smart, travelled.

>>10243788
You have it backwards. Ancient languages had just as much connotation and implicit understanding as today's. If you translate word for word, you will lose almost everything that made it valuable to begin with. That it is epic poetry means that the multiple significances of the words should be preserved even more closely. Otherwise you will lose all the artistry from the work, and fall into either a false and stony reverence for the past, or else an ignorant and hard-headed rejection of history as antiquated.

>>10243812
You might be right, but calling a hero in an epic story for "complicated" makes him sound like an emo teenager.

>>10243817
This is why no serious translation uses "complicated", even if it is inarguable that Odysseus was a complex man.

>>10243817
>>10243823
Right. I thought we were all agreed about this. Is there anyone in this thread saying otherwsie?

To the would-be translators. Demonstrate your worth by translating the first line of the Illiad.

>IL.1.1 μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος

>>10243927
is this the ancient greek?
one thing is confirm. google translate is a shit.

>>10243736

Oh, I was just going to post Fagles or something and do an ebonics adaptation.

Now, if you guys REALLY wanted to put in the work of translating the original Greek into Chimpcant, I'll absolutely facilitate that stupidity.

>>10243951
>is this the ancient greek?

Yes

>>10243927
Sing (to me), godess, the rage of the son of Pileus, Achilles.

>>10243927
YO BITCH, LECHU MAKE A FREESTYLE B'OUT THAT NIGGA'S PILEUQUON BOY, LEACHILLON, HE BE RAGIN AN SHIT

>>10237516
I unironically think this every time I see an article titled like that.

First book is in last summer's issue of the Paris review, if anyone's interested. It's not very good

>>10244467

>>10240959
>not including a bubble about how reading a work in its original language is impossible when that language is not your native one due to your learning being contextualized by an English-Greek environment
>implying anyone but rural Greeks can actually read the Homer with any degree of cultural accuracy
>implying they would even appreciate it

>>10242199
This, fucking this. Academia has completely destroyed Homer and most classics by making them incomprehensibly "poetic".

>>10241005
>fascinating, unique, ambitious things
ohh goody i can't wait to read another paper on the modality of the absent object in beckett's absurdist theater

>>10244666
>tfw when imagining a woman from larissa reading the Illiad
Thanks for the laughs satan

>>10242199
Fugg u on bout? Ppl talked gud so dey be membered and shiite. Jus cuz ur poor n unliterate don' meen u can' tlk gud

>>10244685
>incomprehensibly poetic
You probably don't like shakespeare either.
Also, you're on a canadian fecal matter sharing board?

>>10240393
>2 And the earth shall be filled with bread, and it shall be his bread, and it shall be his bread, and the bread of the bread shall be given to him, and the bread of the bread shall not exceed the breadth of the bread.

>>10244685
Idiot

>>10237538
English isn't my first language, what's a 6th grade reading level and how can you tell from looking at the text what grade level it'd be? Are there specific word lengths? Certain sentence structures? an overuse, and I mean a real overuse, of these wondrous, all-consuming, infinitely delectable commas?

>>10244685
Homer IS poetic. The text is written in a certain meter after all, it is supposed to be sung with a certain rythm.

>>10244858
>it is supposed to be sung with a certain rythm.
Newfag to poetry here, how exactly SHOULD it be sung? Even though I'm a musician and I'm very well acquainted with unusual time signatures, I always read poetry in a 4/4 kind of beat, followed by a confusing mess at the end of the line to make up for the extra syllables

>>10244880
— u u | — u u | — u u | — u u | — u u | — X
Ancient Greek had a thing going with long vowels and short vowels that was applied to poetry. Every — you see is a long syllable, and every u, a short one. The rhythm is up to you. It's a technique used even in rap, the dactilic hexameter.
>fellow musician that listens to ancient greek music

>>10244905
By long, do you mean stressed?

>>10244911
There was a video posted in this thread, in this channel there is this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8aOL_w5vno
Watch it to get an idea on how it was recited, aprroximately at least.
Long is basically stressed yeah.

>>10237844
>Edit: why am I being downvoted?
Nice.

>>10237524
She's obviously just not very smart

>>10245410
If she directly translated it from ancient greek she is smarter than anyone in this thread already.

>>10245418
Knowing a language taught in university doesn't make you smart and I'm sure she referenced other translations when writing the book.

I feel like I could churn out something better directly from Fogel.

>>10245426
>I feel like I could churn out something better directly from Fogel.
do it faggot

>>10240454
There was literally nothing good.about him. He wasn't a good political, military, or artistic leader. He just wasted away the money of the empire.

Where Augustus, Trajan, or Hadrian used money from their personal accounts to build amphitheaters, Caracalla would demand a theatre be built for him in a town he was visiting, using the towns own money. And then he wouldn't even fucking show up.

There's stories of him demanding shellfish or ocean trout while being hours from the coast, else the chef gets killed. This of course in the days before refrigeration, is basically a death warrant for the chef.

And he's not funny crazy like Caligula either

>>10240718
Edith Hamilton absolutely translated all of Homer when she was at university, and she was born in the fucking 1870s.

>>10237516
>a radically contemporary voice
lol

I only hope that when this thread dies, it won't be reposted ad infinitum. Don't give this garbage anymore attention.

>>10245505
Yeah, does that not seem a bit oxymoronic to anyone else? Wouldn't the "contemporary" be the modern status quo?

>>10245491
I bet her translations were better too

>>10245536
Definitely.

Can we close this discussion by agreeing any translation that calls Zeus "Jove" should be disregarded and thrown into the fucking trash?

>>10244911
No, long does not mean stressed. Long and short refers to the syllabic quantity, which is independent of stress. Basically, a vowel in Greek can be either long or short; long vowels are pronounced roughly twice as long as short vowels (diphthongs are also long vowels). If a syllable contains a long vowel or ends in a consonant, then that syllable is said to be long. If the syllable ends in a short vowel then the syllable is short. There are other considerations to be made, but the point is that stress is irrelevant and the poetry is not based on stress.

>>10244911
No, long does not mean stressed. Long and short refers to the syllabic quantity, which is independent of stress. Basically, a vowel in Greek can be either long or short; long vowels are pronounced roughly twice as long as short vowels (diphthongs are also long vowels). If a syllable contains a long vowel or ends in a consonant, then that syllable is said to be long. If the syllable ends in a short vowel then the syllable is short. There are other considerations to be made, but the point is that stress is irrelevant and the poetry is not based on stress. Besides, ancient Greek did not have a stress accent, it had a pitch accent.

>>10244911
No, long does not mean stressed. Long and short refers to the syllabic quantity, which is independent of stress. Basically, a vowel in Greek can be either long or short; long vowels are pronounced roughly twice as long as short vowels (diphthongs are also long vowels). If a syllable contains a long vowel or ends in a consonant followed by a syllable beginning with a consonant, then that syllable is said to be long. If the syllable ends in a short vowel or a consonant not followed by a syllable ending in a consonant, then the syllable is short. There are other considerations to be made, but the point is that stress is irrelevant and the poetry is not based on stress. Besides, ancient Greek did not have a stress accent, it had a pitch accent.

>>10246856
>not followed by a syllable ending in a consonant
meant beginning, not ending

>>10243443
eh, there is such as thing as Olde English, you know?

Try Beowulf, for starters , if you want to reconnect with your ancestors. Unless you're some sort of foreigner masquerading as a white chap.

>>10243507
>>10243499
'ingenious' would be the better word for it in English. As it happens, I think that that's the word (or its cognate) that's used in the Italian and Latin versions I've seen.

>>10239788

This is a very accessible, up-to-date rendition for a modern audience.

>>10237844
underrated

>>10239919
>I’m trying to serve something
yeah, shes serving hot dogshit.

>>10237516
>translating a book to a language it had already been translated into
>news
why?

>>10243970
>Son of Pileus
>>>/trash/

>>10247481
Literally what it means faggot.

>>10240912
Ha!

>>10239919
would bang/10

>>10238887
Férfiúról szólj nékem Múzsa, ki sokfele bolyongott
s hosszan hányódott, feldúlván szentfalu Tróját,
sok nép városait és észjárását kitanulta,
s tengeren is sok erős gyötrelmet tűrt a szívében,
menteni vágyva saját lelkét, társak hazatértét.
Csakhogy nem tarthatta meg őket, akárhogy akarta:
mert önnön buta vétkeiért odavesztek a társak,
balgák: fölfalták Hüperíón Éeliosznak
barmait, és hazatértük napját ő elorozta.

>>10237516
>>10237524
I agree “complicated man” is bad but her translation is in iambic pentameter. That’s pretty amazing.

>>10248013
>Implying anyone here knows what meter is

>>10248041
>Implying anyone here doesn't

>>10248013
Most Homer translations are in some sort of meter. I think Fagles uses the original's hexameter

>>10248041
Meter isn't some esoteric, technical aspect of poetry. People learn what iambic pentameter is in high school

>>10248085

>People learn what iambic pentameter is in high school
Maybe in the 50's.
Precipitous decline

>>10246864
>All white people are English
>All British people are descended from Germanic tribes

Guys guys
We were totatly wrong

>It is so well written that every page makes you feel more alert and alive, energized by the pleasures of a heightened awareness of one’s own relationships, and a finer attunement to the world and how we interact with it.

https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/odyssey-mendelsohn-wilson-review/

>>10248109
did you go to some dirty inner city public school or something?

>>10240133
Its paris's fault for having no virtue.

My first test when deciding upon a translation of an ancient Greek work is whether or not the translation uses the normal English system of rendering names. For example, if it reads Akhilleus or something instead of Achilles, I won't read it.

>>10239748
I met him in middle school. Still have my signed copies.
Did you know he is a also a 'zen master'?

>>10248814

He's a pretty cool guy with a nice set of translations.
I don't know why everyone always ignores him.

>>10237524
I haven't read the Odyssey in English before but her prose is so laughingly bad in comparison to Fagle and most of you would laugh at what I have read so far, I am a turbo pleb for this board most likely.
But just reading the Fagle version gives you such a deep sense of wonder and mystery

>>10249025
Fagles is great. Don't let pseuds on /lit/ tell you otherwise.

>>10248198
>colonial type detected

>>10248657
>For example, if it reads Akhilleus or something instead of Achilles, I won't read it.

But those are the best translations

>>10249342
But they're failing at being translations. Ἀχιλλεύς in English is Achilles. That is the English form of the name. How am I, when reading an English text, expected to pronounce Akhilleus? Since we are supposedly following the Greek, the accent is upon the syllable "leus" at the end, and the "eu" constitutes a diphthong which does not exist in English. Am I expected to pronounce this as in Greek when there is a normal English form of this name? What exactly am I gaining from this, other than the illusion that I am somehow "closer to the Greek"? Or am I to try and pronounce it in some type of English bastardization? If so, what is the point? This type of translation is pedantry at the highest level and does nothing more than obscure the text.

>>10248657
You are only talking about English language translations, right?

>>10249470
Of course.