/lit/ - Literature

>>10182920
i've read the hobbit and the fellowship of the ring for the first time this month and i liked both books, though fellowship is a lot better because the characters have more depth. in the hobbit most of the dwarves were just names except for three or four.

>>10182940
You should read The Silmarillion. It's quite the adventure.

We have this thread a lot. Within the confines of his own genre he is one of the greats, perhaps the greatest. In the general literature scene he is pretty damn good but not in the league of the best.

>>10182955
Because he didn't write infinite jest lets not forget

>>10182968
haha dallas texas
world famous for
dallas cowboys and
infinite jest

The Silmarillion is extremely beautiful.

>>10182955
>Within the confines of his own genre he is one of the greats, perhaps the greatest. In the general literature scene he is pretty damn good but not in the league of the best.

Second.

I hate how the balrogs are always depicted like this. Is it so hard to understand they're made out of lava and shadow?

>>10183120
This is the most accurate Balrog I found

>>10183120
iirc in the book it says the balrog's shadow spread like wings or something, so in the jackson trilogy and subsequent art the balrog has literal wings

>>10182920
The Silmarillion is quite beautiful. The Hobbit and the Father Christmas Letters are warm, comfy reads. Lord of the Rings is fine, but I haven't read it in years, so I'm not sure. Children of Hurin and his translations are worthwhile reading.

>>10182955
This. He's one of the few others that can be trolled about since he's undoubtedly good.
His prose is certainly above average for a writer, combined with his world building (and language building for those interested) and his massive influence over all other fantasy works to come after him make him a literary giant in that genre.

Obviously Balrogs don't have wings

>>10182920
haven't there been enough thoughts about Tolkien?

>>10183556

>>10183556
why didn't the eagles just do the thing haha

>>10183621

The thing about Tolkien that I truly admire is his commitment to the idea of goodness, the twin ideas of truth and beauty. You get the sense that he really did believe that men could be just and grand, that they could rise above their demons and achieve tremendous things. This spirit is found in The Lord of the Rings, especially in how powerful and magnificent the forces of good are. From the hobbits to the elves to the dwarves, to the men of Rohan and Gondor, the forces of good are tremendous and powerful. So often in these dumb fantasy series we're impressed by the forces of evil, but only in LOTR do we seem to be impressed by the forces of good. Tolkien makes good feel powerful and mighty in a way too many fantasy writers don't.

Tolkien writes like it's actual historical, and sometimes Biblical, text, where most of that backstory and world building in other fantasy is incidental or just done in passing as reference.

>>10182920
I genuinely and unironically like the LotR movies more than the books. They don't have shit on the Silmarillion tho.

>>10185060
i have the exact inverse opinion

There's extremely little wrong with Tolkien, but a fuckload wrong with the autistic styles of writing he spawned. Only retards shittalk trend setters.

>>10183814
mmm
>>10185060
I love the films and the books, but I would also agree that the Silmarillion is his best work

>>10183814
>Feanor arguably commits the greatest crime of any child of Illuvatar and is totally unapologetic in his evil
>even he is redeemed after being kept in the Halls of Mandos
The idea that no-one is beyond saving is beautiful and understated in Tolkien's work. He asks us to ask, how did Gollum come to be as he is? And to meet his downfall with some understanding and with pity.

I really want to read LOTR, in fact I have a really comfy edition, but the idea of starting and remember all the films then and again really makes me wanna give up and read something I don't already know...

>>10183621
>m-muh silmarils

>>10183146
No hair, no good. The image of the Balrog that sticks with me most strongly is that of its mane kindling as it leaps over the fiery chasm separating it from the fellowship. It's one of those really evocative visual images from the books that for some reason artists rarely seem to pick up on, like the planned housing in Mordor or the revolving tower in Minas Morgul or the weird feet of Ents.

>>10182920
He's vastly overrated, but still good. Not a literary giant at all. The films are awful and only people who haven't watched any good cinema in their life like them.

>>10183814
I agree. The only other fantasy work that really captures the idea of Good being great is The Worm Ouroboros, though in a very different way (and very different concept of Good) from Tolkien. Too many fantasy writers are fundamentally cynical about what they portray. Tolkien wasn't. He believed in the values he wrote about.

>>10185778
>being this much of a contrarian

>>10185783
He's right that the movies are pretty bad, visually they're hit or miss, some decent and some not so decent acting, but their interpretation of Tolkien's work is dreadful lowbrow shit, strictly for plebes.

The judgement of Tolkien as not being "literary" is plebeian in a different way though. Literature is what endures. Tolkien does, LotR is a timeless work of postmodern fiction whereas the drear social-realist crap that was popular with hack critics in his day is justly forgotten.

>>10185795
>LotR is a timeless work of postmodern fiction
Literally fucking word soup.

>>10185795
>LotR is a timeless work of postmodern fiction
literally word salad
it's like you just crammed together as many buzzwords as possible and called it an opinion

>>10185795
I can't imagine what if feels like writing a sentence then going to thesaurus to change each and every one to sound profound

>>10185816
LotR is pomo as fuck, sorry to trigger you

father of genre fiction
terrible prose
decent lore
copypaste christian mythos

>>10185816
>>10185819
>the absolute state of brainlet discourse

>>10185782
The "cynics" also believe in the ideas they write about, that doesn't mean anything at all.

>>10185783
Contrarian for what? The movies are hot garbage.
>>10185795
>Literature is what endures.
Wow! And water is wet! This doesn't mean that we should stop thinking critically about what we read. Suspending your judgement and letting the tides of history decide what is good and what is not is a self contradictory idea.

>>10185830
>father of genre fiction
Opinion fucking disregarded for a know-nothing ass clown, genre fiction predates Tolkien by a century or more. If there is a father of fantasy genre fiction specifically it's fucking George McDonald. God damn I'm mad. Get educated you illiterate fuck.

>>10185848
cynics don't believe in anything
by definition
tard

>>10185861
dont explain words you dont know
thanks

>>10185859
mcdonald left behind a sickly baby while tolkien has a statue in the lala land orphanage

>>10185869
McDonald left behind Tolkein and CS Lewis.

>>10183146
this image is literally in the jackson trilogy. The shot for when Sauramon is explaining the balrog.

>>10186013
I know, still, it's way better than this

>>10186337
Those weird feet always annoyed me as a kid.

>>10185754
It’s worth it anon, it’s like meeting with old friends and embarking on a a familiar path, only expanded into a grand journey bursting at the seams with visual prose and history. Everything that I had trouble with in the movies is solved in the books. The quest The Fellowship and Frodo/Sam go on feels far more difficult and impressive than anything in the movies. I almost cried at the end of RotK when Frodo and Sam awoke in Minas Tirith because their sufferings and unbreakable will had finally been given the praise and deserved reward.

>>10185816
that's not a word salad retard, why you may be right in other instances you're wrong about this guys post

>>10186757
>none of the worlds are relevant to the thing discussed
>not world salad
ok retard

>>10185826
>LotR is pomo as fuck
Name 1 way tLotR is post modern, go ahead, I'll wait.

>>10185754
I felt the same way, but then I started reading Fellowship and really fell in love with Tolkien's style and world-building. There are also plenty of discrepancies between the films and the books. It's worth it for you to at least read Fellowship and see if you want to keep reading (my guess is that you will).

>>10182920
>when a classic is so good it spawns an entire genre

>>10187744
>when it's so good that nearly all historical high fantasy settings across all mediums are just variations of that setting

>>10186848
holding my breath here anon

>>10182920
He fills me with incredible envy
I wish he would just never exist and i could be the most iconic fantasy author with hundreds of other media made based on my fantasy world

>>10186848

Worldbuilding is the most postmodern form of literature. Deal with it.

what exactly was his tax policy?

>>10189791
>creation myth
>post modern

>>10182920

I wish alt-right retards would stop saying his work is allegorical and perverting his writings with their retardation.

>>10189849
It is a deeply and explicitly European story that is still massively popular at a time of cultural and ethnic displacement across the European and American continents. There are also many unconsciously racist undertones, with the East and South being the home of the Enemy, dark skin and the color black being representative of evil, the descriptions of the Orc's language as compared to Quenya... It's aggressively opposed to modernity and industrialization, the two biggest forces of progressivism today. Chomsky and Howard Zinn have written on this, I think

Tolkien said that he didn't write allegories, just myths with 'applicability.' It seems to me that the myth he created is unusually applicable to a Romantic, anti-progressive worldview, like that of the alt-right.

>>10189942
>Romantic

I wouldn't precisely call the alt-right romantic. They're all nihilists, deep down, where Tolkien definitely was not. Tolkien believed in a final victory.

>>10189955

The alt-right is atheist. Tolkien was a Christian.

>>10189976
>The alt-right is atheist
oh boy

>>10189942
this is bait

>>10189942
It frightens me to know there are people this deeply stupid who 'engage' in literary pursuits alongside me.

>>10189942

I reference this guy.

>>10190012

>>10190055
??
the alt-right is comprised of many different groups but only the briefest glance of /pol/ would show you that it's deeply Christian. The radical left oppose traditional values and believe the erosion of the status quo, which includes Christianity will pave the way for a better world.
Recently people who considered themselves friends of free-speech and the Enlightenment have turned against the growing movement of insane ideologues who don't believe in fair treatment under the law, free-speech, falsifiable science or preserving the structure within which those things flourish.
Many of these people were and are atheists, but to say "The alt-right is atheist" is so, so ignorant and clearly disprovable.
Literally go to /pol/ right now and look for yourself.

Over rated. Wooden characters, flat dialogue, poorly plotted.

There are other far superior authors out there if you want high fantasy.

>>10190076
>deeply Christian
>rejects Christs teachings of love and compassion and acceptance and non-judgement
>embraces the fire and brimstone and tribal hatred of the Old Testament
Hmm

>>10190076
>who don't believe in fair treatment under the law
Like when the far right goes crazy at people disagreeing with them and demands violent retribution?
>free speech
Like when trump denounces free speech, says it needs to be limited, and demands media critical of him be shut down, and the right supports this
>falsifiable science
Like when the entirety of the right rejects science because its been tarred and feathered as 'librul' thanks to the fossil fuel industries gigantic PR campaign to protect its short term profits?

>>10190016
Why do you find my post so upsetting? I am not advocating that people use his writing for propaganda, I am simply explaining why it appeals well to certain ideologies. In the 60s it was the hippy movement; today it is young men who saw the action films when they were children. It's hardly an insight unique to myself; many fantasy writers like Michael Moorcock have publicly expressed disapproval of Tolkien because of his pronounced conservatism. He obviously wasn't a goose-stepping Nazi, but his worldview is probably closer to that of Alex Jones than Harry Potter

>>10190081
You should watch a television show if you want quirky characters, punchy dialogue and intricate plots. The simplicity of Tolkien is exactly his beauty

>>10190095

>>10190106
>something has been interpreted and used to justify wildly different ideas
>but all of the ideas are valid and legitimately derived from the work
You have to be a retard to not see how retarded this is. Occam's razor, Moorcock, the hippies, you, all wrong.

>>10190086
You may disagree with their interpretation of the laws of Christ. But that doesn't make them atheist any more than that makes them Muslims.

Now, Jesus said low your neighbour and to turn your cheek 99 times, however he also said give unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
>Romans 13:1-5 - Let every person be subject to the governing authorities - Similar themes in Titus 3:1 Romans 2:13 Romans 3:31

Here: https://www.openbible.info/topics/obeying_the_law

There's a case to be made for either side.


>>10190095

I see you are very keen to jump in!
Be careful not to allow yourself to become too radicalised.
Yes exactly like that.
Do you believe that the alt-right is some amorphous Trump worshipping blob? You do realise it's more nuanced than that don't you, perhaps sometimes you need to take a side with people you disagree with to fight something worse.
To each of your points specifically:
Punch a "nazi"
Sargon doesn't support this
Gender differences

There are heroes on both sides.

>>10190161
>both sides are extreme
Oh you're one of those people
>Be careful not to allow yourself to become too radicalised.
lel
>Do you believe that the alt-right is some amorphous Trump worshipping blob?
Yes
>You do realise it's more nuanced than that don't you, perhaps sometimes you need to take a side with people you disagree with to fight something worse.
Der libruls?
>there are heroes on both sides
Where do you get these trite slogans?

>>10190161
>punch a "nazi"
>placing nazi in quotes to suggest they are not nazis, simply called names by people who disagree with them
They put swastikas on their emblems
They use nazi slogans
They use nazi salutes
They
Are
Nazis

Should they be assaulted? No. Does this mean "side with people you disagree with to fight something worse"
No
What's worse? Da ebil SJWs? Grow up snowflake.

Its interesting you respond to trump threatening media that disagrees with him and the destruction of the environment for short term financial gain, with whining about gender and nazis being discriminated against
Interesting dichotomy of priorities

>>10190136
Most great art influences people's lives and the way they interpret the world. The wide applicability of the Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's work is in part why it's great, in the same way that Shakespeare is great. Everybody is in a certain sense 'right' in that they've picked up on individual details of a general worldview with many clear and evident convictions and assumptions---opposition to industrialization, hope in the face of despair, courage and integrity in the face of death, celebration of European history and mythology (eurocentrism, some would call it), hierarchy, the desire for power.

Where everybody's 'wrong' is in how they've tried extrapolate specific government policies from their reading of a fantasy book.

Again (I have to keep repeating this for some reason): I am not suggesting that the book is a secret code that when solved reveals the correct political ideology to govern society by. What I am suggesting is that it contains particular themes and assumptions that are more conducive toward particular political ends than others, and that these themes and assumptions are undeniably present in the book regardless of whether you or the author sees in value in the politics that they reinforce, or is even aware of their existence

But frankly, you are a deeply resentful and intellectually insecure person, as evidenced by your dependency on the word 'retard.' You are obviously not interested in having a serious conversation, so this will be my last reply to you

>both sides are extreme
Oh you're one of those people

Both sides HAVE extremes. One of you cherry picked examples of this, as did I, there's plenty of evidence that both have violent elements and both have radical and destructive elements.

>Be careful not to allow yourself to become too radicalised.
lel
I say this because you've treated me like an enemy when I've made some very benign points.
It seems as though you're very ready to leap into action.

>Do you believe that the alt-right is some amorphous Trump worshipping blob?
Yes
Either you're a troll or an idiot.

>You do realise it's more nuanced than that don't you, perhaps sometimes you need to take a side with people you disagree with to fight something worse.
Der libruls?
Say "der libruls" isn't actually an argument. But I'd say that there is an erosion of certain elements of the law that are crucial for the success of the West. Free speech is one of them. Furthermore, from what I can see, Antifa and other radical left-wing organisations are far more prevalent than right-wing ones as it stands. Feel free to prove me wrong.

>there are heroes on both sides
Where do you get these trite slogans?
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith
One of you said:
>entirety of the right rejects science
If you think this is true you're an idiot, plain and simple.

>placing nazi in quotes to suggest they are not nazis, simply called names by people who disagree with them
>>10190223

What about that guy who got hit with a bikelock? What about these people? These leftists aren't punching nazis - and this isn't an isolated incident. If it was it'd be an anomaly but there's so much left-wing violence that it's hard to take seriously the idea that the left's slogan "Punch a Nazi" isn't being taken to mean "Punch anyone left of centre":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz_wfD2IOLE
It's evident that some people within the left, more and more often, are advocating violence against people who aren't nazis.
If you want to talk about Charlottesville then sure, those people are literal Nazis. But I don't think people like Milo are.
It's evident, actually, from your treatment of me, that'd you can't recognise who's on the left or the right.

The point I was trying to make is that both sides have elements within them that advocate for violent retribution. Yes some of them only want to punch nazis, and some of them want to punch people who voted for Donald Trump.

The sad thing is, until recently I sat on the left. There's literally no reason to side with people as insane as the two of you

Saying "da ebil SJWS" actually makes me consider reporting you for being underage. I really want you to remember you wrote this. I want you to remember that you thought that writing this was a good idea. If you develop a better understanding of people and politics, instead of going full Eliot Rodgers, you'll be very embarrassed in the future. I should've known you weren't the brightest button.

Finally, these are not my priorities.

>>10189821
Its new creation myths, formed in stylized mimesis of the old ones, which no one is expected to believe, not is it intended to fulfil any cohesive social role. Its an old form ripped from context and turned into a purely personalized aesthetic object. Very postmodern imo.

>>10182920
jk rowling-tier

>>10190223
They are not my priorities they were concrete examples of the way in which both sides clearly have anti-scientific and free speech viewpoints.
I never denied that some, or even many, within the alt-right deny are science deniers. I did deny that ALL of them are.
I also demonstrated how some, or even many, of the alt-left are science deniers in another respect.

Personally I believe the denial of basic biological differences would have posed less of a threat than the denial of man-made global warming. However it's too late to do anything about the global warming issue, whereas denial of biological difference does undermine aspects of a fair society.
Quotas for instance shouldn't be used as a top-down solution to a perceived problem of inequality. It's unfair. Instead interviews should take place with the interviewer being as blind to any factor other than their ability to perform a job function.

The fact is the SJW movement is far more popular and prevalent than any Nazi movement in America and far more dangerous because of it.
It's gotten so bad we don't arrest people with placards that say things like "Kill White people"
and the BBC recently aired a host who said that "White people are the most violent race on the planet"

These are generalisations you seem happy to make, but I recognise that people, and life, are more nuanced than that.

Good luck with the rest of your life, I hope you learn to take a deep breath before you write and that you go outside and talk to real human beings. It's obvious to me you're raring for a fight, maybe you'll learn that's not an effective method of changing someone's mind.
I don't know.
Peace.

>>10190295
>"Punch a Nazi" isn't being taken to mean "Punch anyone left of centre":
punch anyone right of centre*

>>10190290
Just because you can write a thesis on how the TLotR is actually a communist feminist call to miscegenation, does not mean it isn't wrong and retarded. Like yourself.

Sorry tardo, but authorial intent matters. Dance around it however you want, your tardy dance doesn't impress.

>>10190334
There is no fucking "alt-left", stop applying your invented terminology.
Socialists and communists are more the old left, if anything. They've had renewed support after more people realised the utter failure of neoliberal reforms, and the complete integration of social-democratic parties into its framework since the 70s.
Contemporary liberalism cannot be meaningfully called leftist by any stretch, it embraces right-wing economics and then tapers it over with marketable social progressivism, usually supported by huge corporations.
The only major leftist movement in the West is represented by Corbyn, and even he can charitably be called a reformist socialist.

I'm starting to appreciate him more the older I get. I when I was a bratty little teen I was always looking for authors more exciting and didn't enjoy his books so went full edgelord. Now though, I'm really starting to marvel at the quality of his writting and his vast imagination. I dunno I just can't be edgy to the guy anymore.

>>10190330
What exactly has Rowling written that is remotely comparable to The Silmarillion?

>>10191326
>taking the bait

>>10190076
>to say "The alt-right is atheist" is so, so ignorant and clearly disprovable

All of the alt-right "leaders" are atheists who think they're the ones who really "get" Nietzsche. All of the alt-light celebrities are atheists.

Richard Spencer, Mike Enoch, everyone else at the Right Stuff, Millennial Woes, Andrew Anglin, etc. All atheists. Name an alt-right figurehead and it's almost a guarantee they're atheist.

>>10190443
>Authorial intent
What the fuck is this plebshit
Get out of my board

>>10189849
Faggot.

>>10191470

Really got me.