/lit/ - Literature

>>10161400
>>10161400
GEM Amscombe is maybe a bit too analytical for my taste, but her Introduction to Tractatus is a better read then the Tractatus itself as she is more polemical and abandons the awkward form of her teacher, while her Intention (halfway through) is a lot of examination, but is lacking the 'narrative' that you are supposed to follow. She's less dense then Garrigou-Lagrange, but she lacks the payoff he has every 5-6 pages where his arguments come together. I hope the second half will be more clear on what she is trying to do (she could be following the way Wittgenstein set up Blue and brown book and Philosophical Investigations).
Reading chapters from the Summa Theologie for the first time as well and it is, compared to Summa Contra Gentiles, more ingenious in the sense where all the answers are put in such a convincing way it becomes hard to not agree, but sadly doesn't have the step by step process of building Catholic theology ground up.

>>10161400
Also forgot to sage the inclusive Protestant thread.

>>10161666
>those digits
I would fain to wit what they foretell. Perhaps it's just a reference to the fire of 1666 in London.

Is there any secondary literature you would recommend for starting with Thomas Aquinas? I still intend to read the Bible for about another year before I read any theology.

>>10161996
Look in direction of Feser (Aquinas and Scholastic Metaphysics), MacIntyre (literally everything because he's the best Catholic philosopher since Aquinas desu) and Copleston (first two volumes of History of Philosophy).

>>10162129
God, Philosophy, and University is comfy af

Question. Do any of you find certain aspects hard to agree with? I was just thinking about the Church's view on suicide. Mostly because of people with ALS. It does sound rather horrifying.

>>10161400
What is the Catholic position on Kierkegaard?

>>10162384
Also the only non Croatian work ever to mention Rudjer Boskovic in any way in philosophy.
>>10162701
To be simple it thinks he's hot garbage, half of the anathemas at Trent would apply to him, without even going into his fideism (also a condemned heresy of V1), distrust of authority, and overemphasized individuality.

>>10162671
From my understanding, the Church is more forgiving of people who commit suicide than before because of the way we think about mental illness being a result of chemical imbalances and the like. However, if one does commit suicide without any external factors or pressure to do so, then I'm pretty sure it's a damnable offense.

Euthanasia I'm also pretty sure is damnable in all circumstances although if you pulled the plug on someone in a coma then obviously that would not be the fault of the comatose, maybe even not his fault if he had made a provision for it in his will. People can always have a change of heart under changed circumstances and a comatose man obviously is being denied that opportunity to make a rational judgement given the unfortunate circumstance, so the fault might rest entirely on whomever's ultimately responsible for performing the euthanasia.

Honestly I can't think of any personal moral issues I disagree with the Church on. There are certainly some sins I struggle with on a daily basis, but that doesn't mean I disagree with the church on whether or not they are immoral. Any problems I have with the Church are more to do with the political stances of some clergy, but I'm hardly going to go Martin Luther over it.

>>10161400
>>10161996
>*whistle blows*

adoration of idols, numerology. 1000 years gulag!

Why do you guys hate creationism and literalism so much? I thought you were all about tradition.

>>10163056
>Literalism
>Traditional
Sure, if you count the 19th century as traditional

>>10163078
That's around when people started turning against literalism though.

>>10163056

Young earth creationism is not traditional or biblical. This idea that the earth is only 6,000-10,000 years old is a 19th century protestant invention. Those Christians who believe that creation is only a few thousand years old come to that conclusion by counting the years included in the genealogies of the old testament. However the genealogies in the bible cannot be used to date the age of the universe because they were not meant to be exact chronicles of history. In some cases generations were omitted in order to make a symbolic point. In other cases the ages themselves may be symbolic and not literal. The genealogies in scripture were primarily focused on showing how different people were related to one another, not how long ago they lived.

>>10163131

>Young earth creationism is not traditional or biblical. This idea that the earth is only 6,000-10,000 years old is a 19th century protestant invention.

Oh really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism#Biblical_dates_for_creation

>Calculations based on the Septuagint have traditionally dated creation to around 5500 BC, while the Samaritan Torah produces a date around 4300 BC, and the Masoretic a date around 4000 BC.[15] Many of the earliest Christians who followed the Septuagint calculated the date of creation to be around 5500 BC, and Christians up to the Middle Ages continued to use this rough estimate: Clement of Alexandria (5592 BC), Sextus Julius Africanus (5501 BC), Eusebius (5228 BC), Jerome (5199 BC) Hippolytus of Rome (5500 BC), Theophilus of Antioch (5529 BC), Sulpicius Severus (5469 BC), Isidore of Seville (5336 BC), Panodorus of Alexandria (5493 BC), Maximus the Confessor (5493 BC), George Syncellus (5492 BC) and Gregory of Tours (5500 BC).[16][17] The Byzantine calendar has traditionally dated the creation of the world to 1 September, 5509 BC, María de Ágreda and her followers to 5199 BC, while the early Ethiopian Church (as revealed in the Book of Aksum) to 5493 BC.[18][19] Bede was one of the first to break away from the standard Septuagint date for the creation and in his work De Temporibus ("On Time") (completed in 703 AD) dated the creation to 18 March 3952 BC but was accused of heresy at the table of Bishop Wilfrid, because his chronology was contrary to accepted calculations of around 5500 BC.[20]

>>10161996
Gilson's Thomism - Introduction etc.
Are you a native English-speaker ?

>>10162701
Gabriel Marcel may interest you if you want Catholic existentialism.

>>10162129
I doubt that MacIntyre is the best Catholic philosopher since Aquinas.
Pascal is better. Vico is better. (time gap) Gilson is better. Koninck is better. Pieper is better. Molnar is better. Marcel de Corte is better.

>>10163002
I imagine much my trouble with it comes from my own paranoia and slight hypochondria. The fear that someday, the slim chance I'll get ALS occurs and I know that I'd rather just hasten the inevitable instead of end up this slowly dying husk who can't feed himself. It doesn't sound dignified to me.

I pray that the Lord has mercy on such people who ask for euthanasia.

I feel bad for all non Catholics. It must suck burning in hell for eternity.

:-/

>>10162129
>the best Catholic philosopher since Aquinas desu
>Not Simone Weil

>>10163305
Stop this meme.
She's not Catholic.
She didn't converted.
She was a Marcionist (rejected the Ancient Testament), i.e. a heretic.

>>10163210
Yes, English is my native language, but I'm good enough in French that I've read a few novels and philosophy in it. I was disappointed to learn my French wasn't very useful for doing average stuff in Paris, however.

>>10163292
This notion of a dignified death baffles me. That term was thrown around a lot with regard to poor Charlie Gard in defense of denying him medical treatment. I feel as if one could otherwise argue that it would have been more dignified to try every reasonable method possible to save him even if the prospects looked bleak. The only reason why I bring this up in reference to a debilitating illness is because I can imagine one dying with dignity without euthanasia.

It's good to pray for people who have to make such difficult choice. However, I do believe the Church's perspective is pro-life under all circumstances except in terms of capital punishment, even if Pope Francis says otherwise.

>>10163300
We equally have the chance to burn in hell for eternity, although fortunately we have (ideally) better knowledge than others on how to avoid it.

>>10163321
stay mad, brainlet

>>10163459
I'm just LARPing

I don't actually care about religion lol

Does anyone here suppose there could be saints among the leadership of today's democracies?

When reading the lists of royal saints, I was struck by how many kings, queens, and other titled nobility have been saints or blesseds, even monarchs as recent as Charles I of Austria being a blessed and Nicholas II of Russia being a saint in the Russian Orthodox Church.

Is there something about the rule of law that prevents modern-day heads of states or other politicians from being candidates for formal recognition of sainthood? I suppose I could imagine, for example, a former president becoming a saint through great acts of Christian virtue, but in office? It's unthinkable. Take for example, Roosevelt, Churchill, and De Gaulle, almost universally recognized as great men, but definitely not saints.

It just seems to me that democracy is predisposed to worldly people.

>>10163459
I'm not familiar with Charlie Gard I'm afraid. I think my big difference with ALS is how it's a slow killer. That I might be nothing more than this vegetable who can't use the bathroom or feed himself, likely costing a good deal of money and his loved ones a lot of pain, is not something I'd be particularly excited to stick around for. Plus ALS doesn't have a cure yet, so it doesn't give me much hope. I don't find it very dignified to be crapping myself and drooling.

I know the Church is pro-life, it's why I asked if any of us have disagreements with the Church. Despite it being unlikely to ever happen, I am a paranoid man and I fear it may someday happen to me.

The whole thing does make me wonder how it works for altruistic suicide, in case like a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his comrades. Though I imagine that might not really count.

>>10163305
>>10163321
Maybe, but I think we could say that she was the greatest catechumen of all time. Also she wasn't a complete Marcionite. She loved the Psalms and Ecclesiastes. At the very least she qualified as a deeply virtuous pagan

>>10163618
You aren't the only Catholic who is skeptical of the ridiculous notion that taking another persons life is less of an offense than taking your own. What arrogance and cruelty, to speculate and dictate what a damnable offense is or isn't - in the end, the Catholic Church remains a human institution, like all others.

>>10163684
I didn't say anything about killing another. I'm just hoping God would forgive me for ending my life if I had an incurable disease or had to be hooked up to life support for the rest of my life.

>>10163700
The point was that if God will forgive you for taking someone elses life, he would surely forgive you for taking your own.

>>10163618
>the grenade case
I would not define that as an "altruistic suicide." It's an act of heroism. He did it with the intention of saving lives, knowing that, unless there was a miracle, he would die. He did not do it with the intention of killing himself. He did it knowing there would be a great risk of death. In cases like these, you usually have to look at the intention as much as the act.

Another reason why I stand with the church on being pro-life is because I'm suspicious of the state getting the power to say that they may be allowed to terminate the unhealthy. Eugenics has already been practiced in the past and has been showing an eerie rise in around the world. For example, in Iceland, they are encouraging pregnant mothers to abort their children if they have Downs syndrome. The Charlie Gard case in England was something similar to that, where this infant had a disease that would likely end in death but they would not let them bring the child to the US for treatment, instead saying that the infant should "die with dignity." I'm frankly afraid of giving the state that power, "who lives or dies." In war and crime, it makes sense that it should have power, but the idea that we as citizen could be killed off because we're a "drain on society" or "parasitic" is disturbing.

It is indeed a terrifying prospect to imagine watching oneself becoming vegetative. I often worry more about the possibility of becoming mentally ill. Nonetheless, I don't think the ill should be "terminated," "euthanized," or whatever other euphemism they've dreamed up.

>>10163684
>You aren't the only Catholic who is skeptical of the ridiculous notion that taking another persons life is less of an offense than taking your own.

People get drafted into wars and have to kill other people. They don't have much of a choice about it. However, you do have a choice whether or not to take your life, unless there are outside factors that might influence your decision.

>>10163618
>the grenade case
I would not define that as an "altruistic suicide." It's an act of heroism. He did it with the intention of saving lives, knowing that, unless there was a miracle, he would die. He did not do it with the intention of killing himself. He did it knowing there would be a great risk of death. In cases like these, you usually have to look at the intention as much as the act.

Another reason why I stand with the church on being pro-life is because I'm suspicious of the state getting the power to say that they may be allowed to terminate the unhealthy. Eugenics has already been practiced in the past and has been showing an eerie rise in around the world. For example, in Iceland, they are encouraging pregnant mothers to abort their children if they have Downs syndrome. The Charlie Gard case in England was something similar to that, where this infant had a disease that would likely end in death but they would not let them bring the child to the US for treatment, instead saying that the infant should "die with dignity." I'm frankly afraid of giving the state that power, "who lives or dies." In war and crime, it makes sense that it should have power, but the idea that we as citizen could be killed off because we're a "drain on society" or "parasitic" is disturbing.

It is indeed a terrifying prospect to imagine watching oneself becoming vegetative. I often worry more about the possibility of becoming mentally ill. Nonetheless, I don't think the ill should be "terminated," "euthanized," or whatever other euphemism they've dreamed up.

>>10163684
>You aren't the only Catholic who is skeptical of the ridiculous notion that taking another persons life is less of an offense than taking your own.

People get drafted into wars and have to kill other people. They don't have much of a choice about it. However, you do have a choice whether or not to take your life, unless there are outside factors that might force you to do it such as mental illness or someone saying "take this cyanide pill or be hanged—your choice".

>>10163820
>People get drafted into wars and have to kill other people. They don't have much of a choice about it. However, you do have a choice whether or not to take your life, unless there are outside factors that might force you to do it such as mental illness or someone saying "take this cyanide pill or be hanged—your choice".

Of course they would have a choice. Do you think the government puts a gun to your head and forces you to kill people? It's simply harder to object than it is to pick up the gun.

Are you implying that most suicides are unrelated to mental health issues? The fact that someone is killing their self would likely indicate mental health issues. Why would the least likely scenario (a healthy person committing suicide) be the basis for a rule? It makes zero sense.

>>10163610
>Does anyone here suppose there could be saints among the leadership of today's democracies?
Other than Poland(whose Prime minister or president has son who was recently ordained an fssp priest) they're usually heretics and don't do much to propagate the faith.

>>10162671
>the church
Do you talk about the Vatican?

>>10163161
Ouch

>>10163459
Quoi c’est pas utile

>>10163610
Today catholicisme has no use for politics

>>10163900
>Do you think the government puts a gun to your head and forces you to kill people?

In the event of a draft, yeah, that could happen and does happen in some countries, especially despotic countries. For a recent example, I'm sure many Catholics in the Congo had to struggle with this moral decision during their civil war. For an ancient example, look into how Odysseus was compelled to join the Trojan War. There are plenty of examples where people are compelled to kill others and it is not sinful.

>Are you implying suicides are unrelated to mental health issues?

A lot of people committed suicide after the stock market crash of 1929. I'm sure something similar happened in 2008. A criminal, such as Hitler, may choose to commit suicide instead of facing justice for their crimes (can't blame him considering what happened to Mussolini).

People who commit crimes of passion are usually held accountable for what they do. Is suicide often not a crime of passion? The Church is actually fairly generous considering it is generally forgiving of people who don't know if an act that they commit is sinful. But once you know, you must obey.

>>10163707
Aaah. Reading it again, I understand your point anon. Thank you.

>>10163820
Not every soldier is drafted.

>>10164018
Is there some other Church we're supposed to speak of in a Catholic thread?

>>10164086
Idk, byzantin? Just being curious, don’t mind me

>>10163998
I could imagine that coming from Poland. Could you recommend any Polish writers? I was very impressed by a quote from Czeslaw Milosz either here or in the previous Catholic general.

>>10164045
What's not useful? French in general? or my literary knowledge of French for getting around Paris? For me, it was the fact that I wouldn't know useful words like how to ask for "the bill" to pay after eating at a restaurant. I still don't remember the word for that important little piece of paper. But I do know the rules for an alexandrine. Nonetheless, I managed to get around and had a good time in Paris. I would go back if it wasn't so expensive.

>>10164060
How so? I would love, for example, to see the US have a Catholic president, but not some degenerate like Kennedy.

>>10164086
Not always, but even then, a soldier would be excused in a just war if he volunteered.

reminder that prayers to Mary trace back to an anonymous 3rd century Egyptian document, and not to the apostles or an early Christian father
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

>>10164115
>little piece of paper
L’addition
>How so
Sorry I meant politics have no use for Catholicism
e.g. Charlemagne needed it to unify his empire

>>10164076
I'm still not convinced, but I have more to think about. Christ did stay Peter's sword.

Your example of the market crash and Hitler are exceptional outliers, considering the ~120 people who kill themselves in the U.S every day. I'm still not compelled. I think the Church is casting judgement on states of mind it does not understand. I can understand why they wouldn't want to appear ambiguous on the topic, because that might not attempt to deter suicide enough, but I'd prefer that to damnation.

>>10164153
Christ stayed Peter's sword, but he also said to sell your cloak and buy a sword if you didn't have one.

>>10164161
can't stay your sword if you don't have one! he sure had a sense of humor, huh.

>>10164148
Scientism is where today's political elite find legitimacy

>>10164192
Yeah I know and I’m not saying it’s for better days but that answer the first question

>>10164187
Is this bait? Are you new? Are you same anon asking if I was talking about the Vatican?

If this is bait, this is some of the best I've seen and I'm eating it.

>>10163056
>creationism
Because it's based on a crude and unnecessary understanding of Genesis.
>literalism
Because of the sheer ignorance of it all.
None of this relates to tradition. >>10163131 is partially correct. In the early church there were many divergent views about genealogies which caused confusion, along with a bit of Psalms that they related to it. Rabbis that influenced them were they, themselves, mixed on it.

Young Earth Creationism is a revival of very old interpretation of Christian views that have been rationally dismissed for much of the church's history. What is called "Biblical Literalism" is what is a 19th century Protestant invention, however, primarily because it is a viewing of Biblical texts without regards to genres because iy assumes modern styles about it.

>>10164227
>Young Earth Creationism is a revival of very old interpretation of Christian views that have been rationally dismissed for much of the church's history.
Interesting. So when exactly did Young Earth Creationism fall out of favor?

>>10164148
>l'addition
Merci pour me dire.

Quant à Charlemagne, je ne crois pas qu'il était un proto-machiavélique, plutôt qu'il était le type de son époch qui a le plus fait pour maintenir la civilisation chrétienne contre les barbes... mais c'est possible que mon savoir là est mal informé. Mais quand je regard une carte de cet époch, je peux imaginer un monde pour le pire sans lui.

>>10164153
The Church makes exceptions for some suicides, as I have previously stated and you seem to understand that. However, you can't seem to accept people are quite capable of doing it as rational agents. I'm also hard-pressed not to see how we won't be held accountable for doing something even in a crime of passion. To what extent we will be held accountable, I don't know.

I read Mechthild this week, the flowing light of the godhead. highly recommend it

>>10163210
The only one of those who can compete is Gilson and I could see why you would say that, but the rest is just picking obscure ones for no reason.

>>10163305
She refused to be baptized. She was not a Catholic and that baptism of desire can't work here, she had plenty of time to convert and knew the teaching well enough, the Church didn't hide the scary stuff back then.

>>10163707
How? You can't confess after you die and suicide is a mortal sin. Those who die in mortal sin immediately descend into hell, as per the Catechism. You cannot be forgiven if you take your own life at all, we may speak of mitigating circumstances, but that's a question of culpability, not forgiveness.

>>10164134
We trace it to the Archangel as we only repeat his words and also is this supposed to somehow argue against it?

>>10161400
Has anyone read Wolfgang Smith and how much of what he's saying is nonsense?

>>10164254
It's no sudden thing. In the early church we see more complicated understandings of the text shown many times:

>"And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since ‘a day of the Lord is a thousand years,’ he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin" -Irenaeus

>"Seven days by our reckoning, after the model of the days of creation, make up a week. By the passage of such weeks time rolls on, and in these weeks one day is constituted by the course of the sun from its rising to its setting; but we must bear in mind that these days indeed recall the days of creation, but without in any way being really similar to them" -Augustine

>"For who that has understanding will suppose that the first and second and third day existed without a sun and moon and stars and that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky? . . . I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance and not literally"

No view has been endorsed by the church, though many views got popular. As research came out over ancient Jewish practices the use of genealogies to date an Anno Mundi in Europe made them fall out of favor (though the use of Anno Mundi became the standard in Jewish circles and mixed in Constantinople), as well as other holes in the dating of the creation story that came about. For example, Aquinas expands onto previous church fathers how there is no explanation for the amount of time between these events that God does and as God does not create in time these adjustments can be best understood as when they developed.

The coming to of evolution made people rethink how things make sense. However, despite fixism never being doctrine in something like the Adam and Eve story it has been so ingrained in culture as such that some treat it as doctrine to see Adam and Eve that way.

>>10163305
>the best Catholic philosopher since Aquinas desu
>not Bonaventure
>not Scotus

>>10164906
>>"And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since ‘a day of the Lord is a thousand years,’ he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin" -Irenaeus
Irenaeus isn't disputing the genealogies in Genesis at all. He's claiming since Adam didn't live until 1000 (he died at age 930) he really did die on the day he ate the fruit, from God's point of view.

Augustine isn't either, he's talking about the days of creation. Elsewhere he affirmed a young earth:

>They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000 years have yet passed.
City of God - Book 12, Chapter 10

>>10164270
> je ne crois pas qu'il était un proto-machiavélique
Wtf, I never said that, just that he needed the church to unify

>>10164762
Only judge can judge me

>>10164227
Interesting, so in the 19th (!) century, the pope is praising the Egyptologist Jean-François Champollion for proving the Derenda Zodiac is younger than previously thought, thus not contradicting biblical chronology, and implies that, with 1800 years of darkness left before that the world was created in 4000 BC.

And Champollion himself had limited his discoveries to 2200 BC so as to not offend the church.

So if the church is still making a fuss about it in 19th century you cant say in any way that it had been "rationally dismissed for much of the church's history".

>>10165107
The judge has given you a lot of rather clear rules. The rules include for this discussion a number of important elements, first that those who die in mortal sin go to Hell, that mortal sin is forgiven in the sacrament of baptism and the sacrament of confession, you cannot receive the sacraments after you die. The judge has already told you under which rules he will be doing it and the only way a person who committed suicide escapes eternal damnation is by the factors that are unknown to us, mainly the mental state and level of responsibility. God didn't leave us here without the means or the knowledge necessary for salvation.

>>10165117
>clear rules
yeah right, that’s why they do summa about them

>>10165161
They are pretty clear if you are Catholic. If you deny religious authority, of course nothing is clear.

>>10165117
>The judge has given you a lot of rather clear rules
You sound like a protestant bro

>it's obvious, just read the bible! forget all the commentary and tradition!

>>10165168
>The entire history of the Church teaches this
>Lmao it's not clear

>>10165111
But that doesn't preclude the world being older than 4000 BC, just that the Bible is the sole source for understanding the years between 4000 and 200 BC. Sick comprehension brah.

>>10164762
The Catechism also says that those who commit suicide will be judged by the Father. It doesn't say they go to Hell.

Tell me more about Sedevacantism and why I should stay away from them

>>10166415
It's schismatic (claims the pope has been illegitimate since v2) and denies yourself the community of faith offered by the true church.

>>10163002
>although if you pulled the plug on someone in a coma
Pulling the plug on someone who is in a coma is not euthanasia because they die because their body cannot sustain itself. Euthanasia would actually be doing something to make the body die unnaturally.

>>10164115
I'm not Polish and unfortunately don't read any book. I want to though which is why I'm here. I always get distracted by the internet and never end up reading.

>>10167709
Be that as it may, I don't see how it would not be sinful to pull the plug on anyone in a coma or vegetative state because you'd be denying them the chance to live.

>>10167723
>I always get distracted by the internet and never end up reading.
I always read the Bible when I wake up and before bed. If there's still free time left, I read profane literature. There's no reason why you couldn't do that unless perhaps you're raising a family. This is coming from a student who spends probably 12 hours a day on the computer!

Consider subscribing to a good monthly magazine as well. I've found the New Criterion very edifying for its articles and book reviews. I wish my professors had been at least half as brainy and clear as those fellows are.

>>10165111
>>10165111
>Interesting, so in the 19th (!) century, the pope is praising the Egyptologist Jean-François Champollion for proving the Derenda Zodiac is younger than previously thought, thus not contradicting biblical chronology, and implies that, with 1800 years of darkness left before that the world was created in 4000 BC.

No, this is not what the quote says at all nor implies a comment about creationism. To say this is about creationism would say this would imply "generations" in a far larger scale than normally attributed. Adam being 930 upon death and Seth at like 913 or something. If generations are this long then the idea of the Dendera Zodiac being dated at an older date wouldn't be an issue and such a thing as dating an Anno Mundi to 4000BC wouldn't make sense.

The pope IS speaking about biblical primacy. Hence the image you use as evidence saying: "Champollion prudently restricted his historical discoveries to post-Hyksos dynasties, then dated to 2200BC, THUS ALLOWING BIBLICAL PRIMACY". The poster >>10165220 is correct.

Anno Mundi dating extend from the teachings of the Hebrews, which had very mixed reception in Europe.

>>10168109
>No, this is not what the quote says at all nor implies a comment about creationism. To say this is about creationism would say this would imply "generations" in a far larger scale than normally attributed. Adam being 930 upon death and Seth at like 913 or something. If generations are this long then the idea of the Dendera Zodiac being dated at an older date wouldn't be an issue and such a thing as dating an Anno Mundi to 4000BC wouldn't make sense.
No, this isn't a problem for a young Anno Mundi, the further from Adam the more lifespans decrease until they reach normal spans.

I think you guys are misunderstanding it, the wikipedia article also claims the problem they had with it was the age of the earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Fran%C3%A7ois_Champollion#Reactions_to_the_decipherment

>In France, Champollion's success also produced enemies. Edmé-Francois Jomard was chief among them, and he spared no occasion to belittle Champollion's achievements behind his back, pointing out that Champollion had never been to Egypt and suggesting that really his lettre represented no major progress from Young's work. Jomard had been insulted by Champollion's demonstration of the young age of the Dendera zodiac, which he had himself proposed was as old as 15,000 years. This exact finding had also brought Champollion in the good graces of the Catholic Church which had been antagonized by the claims that Egyptian civilization might be older than the church-sanctioned chronology according to which the earth was only 6,000 years old.[65]

And even ignoring all this, there are still Catholic theologians Benedict Pereira, Denis Pétau, and Antoine Augustin Calmet calculating the Anno Mundi at 4000 BC into the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries mentioned in this link here. >>10163161

>mfw reading about the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe

AVE MARIA

>>10168234
Can we get an image dump of Christ-chan ITT?

>>10168191
>>10168109
>>10165111
>>10164227
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui6wp7VV9VU

>>10168250
Ill dump what I can, since my internet decided to crap itself

>>10168250

>>10168255
I feel like Wolf-lad is the gym leader while the random anon heretics / protestants / atheists are trainers about to be BTFO'd.

>>10168267
>>10168272
Merci.

Is there any Catholic literature about art? As an artist myself I figure that we should try to make beautiful work (rather than useful or 'original' work), and to achieve this there should be a synergy of effort and creativity. If that's right I wonder if the creative element is our receiving of the divine in some sense?

>>10168314
Christ-living non-catholic here. Still waiting to be btfo.

>>10168389
Number of times Mary has visited a Catholic: 10
Number of times Mary has visited a non-Catholic: zero

>>10168422
>Number of times Satan has visited a Catholic: 10
Fixed

>>10168250
Christ-chan is American protestant.
Stop spamming her here.

>>10168364
Check out the aesthetics of Jaques Maritain

>>10168431
Go back to Muscovy you Orthodox scum

>>10168191
In the early church period there was a mainstream view of creation that understood "days" not in a 24 hour sense but as 1000 years (to follow with the expression in the Psalm that a day to God is a thousand years). Some others understanding it as 24 hours days and some understanding it as not days in any sense. What is unique from the view of 1000 year days is that despite the separation of creation between different days is rejected on rational grounds for a view of simultaneous creation. Fixism (that species before have been the same as species previous with no development of them) is presumed as that's the unsaid way in which people understood the world to work. As such the idea of the date of creation coinciding the date of the creation of man does not come from the early church's understanding of scripture but by a rational premise about how the world works. And their date for the creation of man is based on genealogies that have been questioned and rejected and accepted throughout much of the church's history. Primarily because the numbers (and even figures named) differ in the Hebrew, Samaritan, and Septuagint and later because of learning more of ancient Jewish records and realizing them as incomplete (and seem to be a selective chain of notable figures or a whole house rather than being a modern family tree). It cannot be denied that some of the genealogical links are omitted in the Biblical lists; even St. Matthew had to employ this device, in order to arrange the ancestors of Christ in three series of fourteen each.


And note that this is already entirely distinct from Young Earth Creationism, which propound a support for 6 separate days of creation.

For further discussions of genealogies, check out the Catholic encyclopedia. All of it is approved by the Catholic Church as accurate.

>Biblical Chronology
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03731a.htm

>Biblical Genealogies
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06408a.htm

part 1/2

>>10168865
part 2/2
But now we're away of the legitimacy from creationism as a topic and the genealogies but rather the historic view of it all within the church. I have maintained that it was an early mainstream view with divergent ideas here >>10164906 but as I've stated, Anno Mundi systems never took hold in Europe. It was maintained as a topic in some theological circles that still accepted the genealogies as complete or derived their information from Jewish circles.

>>10164946
These quotes aren't to refute the idea, they are to show variation with each other as divergent ideas was the point.

>>10164749
>obscure
Pascal is not unknown.
Vico is the best to refutate Descartes.

Also in the history of Catholic thought Koninck is known for being a fervent opponent to Maritain's personnalism (that he proceeded to refutate in "De la primauté du bien commun contre les personnalistes").

Pieper is a solid classic philosopher but not that known it seems.
Molnar is very good and has a conservative Catholic view and criticizes utopian thought, neo-paganism, German idealism.

As for de Corte, I must say that he's only known by few people (mainly trad Catholics) in French-speaking areas (and maybe in the "Lusosphere"), but he's a very solid Catholic realist philosopher that proceeded to criticize modernity with the aristotelico-thomistic method.

>>10168924
Pascal is not considered a philosopher by many and I'm inline with that view. I see him as a fantastic writer and a worthy author of spiritual writings, but he simply doesn't do systematic philosophy that we usually take to be the practice in the first place.
And I don't think any of the ones that I've read from the list or the ones are mentioned are bad in any way, but we can really mention only a small number of authors who can be said to have received the study of Aristote and Aquinas when it seemed to be dying in our secular culture. MacIntyre is the prime reason we've got Fesers and Oderbergs aside Aquinas himself.

>>10168036
There really is no good excuses for me. I just need to better manage my time

>>10169425
Pascal not a philosopher? There are plenty of philosophers who do not make systematic philosophy.

>>10169784
The Pascal as a devotional/existential writer isn't an uncommon opinion, as per Compleston and MacIntyre.

>>10169784
Apologetics may be closer to the reality

>>10168873
Do you still browse /christian/?

>>10171593
Yes, but sparingly and only with a focus of collecting new pictures. I'm mainly focusing on getting a job.

>>10171859
That explains the long posts that usually aren't prepared.

>>10172375
Indeed.

http://jewsforjudaism.ca/why-jesus-is-not-the-jewish-messiah/
how do you respond to this

>>10161400
https://youtu.be/o0PbvfXyrKk
Very interesting lecture
Also fuck Yeves Congar

>>10161400
Serious question lads ....

Is it idolatry to use Catholicism as a way to escape worldliness? I often feel like I practice less for God and more for the sake of escaping the worldly life, which many claim is the only life. I will say that I'm hoping to find a spiritual director soon and to possibly work as an alter server at my university church.

>>10172831
That does seem to be a part of the problem for a lot of new converts, as a meme page once put it, turning hatred of the world into love for Christ. I wouldn't say it was idolatry, it's a step in the right direction because belief comes with practice. Nobody devotes themselves to God 100% in an instant, it takes time and practice and you don't seem to be practicing the faith in a dishonest way. Finding spiritual director is a good idea.

>>10172423
pls respond i don't know what to believe

>>10172859
I'm honestly not even going to bother because it's incredibly stupid, assuming all prophecies are completely literal and can in no way be different then that as well as claiming "Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the start of Christianity." that's hard to swallow, because as we know not only is Christ talking about peace after the second coming, but is factually impossible to calculate (how do you numberise a war, destruction, its relationship with technology, lack of any sources for conflicts in many regions during the ancient times, population and proportionality and so on.

>>10172858
I just want to have control and freedom in my life, and I feel like honest Christian practice will break the hold that the world has over me. I don't think I hate the world, it just feels like a tornado. And Grace seems to be an observable reality in my life, so what else can I do but heed the call? I do believe that I'm earnest in my pursuit, but I can't deny that there's a base part of me that wants it to be true for my own sake. My thinking right now is that my faith will be true when the severity of my practice exceeds the consolation offered by having a rock to cling to.

How do I battle and resist temptation?

>>10172955
Always remind yourself that temptation is a lie, a false promise.

>>10161400
My local catholic churches doesn't even offer confession anymore. They just make us say Lord, have mercy upon us at the beginning of mass and somehow that's enough to receive communion. What the fuck? What should I do guys

>>10173088
I'm in the same predicament

>>10173088
>>10173096
Stop sinning and you won't have a problem

>>10161400
Can someone recommend me a few fictional books with christian background? Something like devine comedy or dostojewskis books (i know he wasnt catholic)

>>10173323
Book of the New Sun

>>10173088
SSPX my dude

>>10173323
late Huysmans, Bernanos, Claudel, Chesterton

>>10173323
My favorite book A Canticle for Leibowitz

>>10172423
Please check out some of the links here. These are links to a Catholic apologetics forum, where the posters are discussing jewsforjudaism.ca

>https://www.google.com/search?q=jewsforjudaism+site%3Acatholic.com&oq=jewsforjudaism+site%3Acatholic.com

Also, you may find useful insights on websites run by Jews who have converted to Catholicism:

>www.salvationisfromthejews.com

>www.hebrewcatholic.net

will I ever be able to know for sure whether christianity is true or is there always something leap of faith?
i feel like I can't honestly have faith in what I can't know

i agree with aquinas's 5 ways but they just say that there is a God and not much else as I understand them

I would be extraordinarily grateful and happy if anyone could show me the proof christianity is right, but I doubt it'll happen

>>10174149
proof would render Christianity obsolete. there would be no reason to have faith.

>>10174214
why should I have faith in Christianity instead of any other religion though

>>10163610
Democracies are not moral.

>>10174499
expand

>>10174511
good reading on the subject
https://thejosias.com/2017/07/31/four-catholic-political-postures-lessons-from-leo-xiii-and-ralliement/

>>10174601
thanks

>>10174601
>>10174499

Why talk shit if you can't explain things in your own words?

>>10174623
I'm not this guy >>10174499

>>10174623
>>10174636
Democracies are immoral because they are primal in their actions and government. It is all based on impulse and desire.

>>10174695

The assumption is that everyone in a Democracy votes based on impulsive or selfish desires. Even if we were to assume that's true it doesn't follow that Democracy itself is immoral. It doesn't follow that the act of voting is immoral since people vote in immoral ways. It only means the people who are doing the voting are immoral.

>>10172955
Go to confession and be honest with your confessor. Pray often. Consider getting religious icons to place around your room so that they're always in view. Read the Bible in the morning and evening.

>>10174716
The individual can be moral but the state cannot be.

>>10174751

You're contradicting yourself because if that were true the individual can be immoral but the state could not. You were saying the state (democracy) was immoral.

>>10174499
I completely disagree. You should read George Washington's farewell address: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=65539

>Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.

There are likely far more kings in hell than presidents and senators. On the other hand, I highly doubt there are any democratic leaders that the Church missed as far as recognizing them for sainthood.

However, what I'm more curious about, is whether or not a president or other official elected by the people could potentially become a saint based on their rule. Because their powers are more limited than that of a monarch, I wonder if they actually have the ability to lead in a saintly manner.

For example, an ideal democratic ruler obeys the will of the people. They are merely a representative of the people... obviously something like that doesn't happen in a country such as, say, Brazil in recent years. If a president disobeys his people, he's more likely to do something corrupt than saintly. Nonetheless, under monarchy and absolute rule, corruption is a far greater problem.

Going to read my Bible for the first time very soon. Can anyone recommend a good video laying out the basics of the bible and their implications for better comprehension.

>>10174499
Democracy is moral, but only if it's a social democracy. Liberal/libertarian democracy is a cancer. FUCK YOU FUKAYAMA

Well, I am officially Christcucked now. Hung out with an ex, she tried to kiss me, I stopped her and said, "No. You're married."

Feels bad, man. Sometimes I really don't know how to feel about life. I've honestly fantasized about this situation so much but then when it happened it just made me feel sick.

Missed confession cause I was in bed feeling sick. Hopefully I can make it to mass tomorrow though.

>>10176142
>a good video
Read about it

>>10176182
You've become a decent, virtuous person. What a fucking tragedy!

>>10176188
Thank you. I do think I made the right decision. It just ate me up inside and I didn't really know who to tell. Sorry for the blogpost.

>>10176194
Lol, I'm a convert too and I wasn't happy when I started believing too. In fact I wrote pages and pages trying to convince myself it wasn't true. I'm pretty sure C.S. Lewis had the same experience. Almost a year later and I'm not regretting it in the least.

>>10176202
The weirdest part was afterward I fell asleep and had a dream about being abducted by a UFO which was significant for personal reasons.

>>10176223
that was not a dream

>>10174302
dunno. if you have a high libido go for islam for the multiple wives.

>>10176146
Fukuyama has stepped back to "all systems decay"

>>10176799
Why would you want multiple wives when you can have a series of girlfriends (as in one after another) that you can abandon without responsibility due to contraception? Or good old prostitution or club sluts?

>>10176867
thats behavior is not encouraged by many religions. with islam you have theological backing for your promiscuity.

>>10176536
Lol. What is the Catholic stance on UFOs?
>>10176869
One of many reasons Islam is backwards.

Or else what. You're going to fite me?

>>10177552
how is monogamy superior to consensual polygamy? in a large population.

>>10177658
1) Monogamy means no male on male violence. Women will naturally gravitate towards the elite males leaving the lesser males with nothing but their hands. Eventually, the elite males use violence to decide who amongst themselves gets more women; this starts a chain of violence until males of all social standings are killing each other for women. This is what happened with the bronze age collapse: Famine, war, and migrations disrupted the palace system leading to the wife-less majority rising up and overthrowing the wife-owning upper class. They instated monogamy because it puts an artificial limit on the number of women you can have as your own as a time. Theoretically, every man gets a woman.

2) Monogamy means no female on female violence. Who gets to be the favored wife? The favored wife and her children get more attention and preference by the father, meaning there is competition to be the favored wife. Monogamy makes every wife the favored wife.

3) Monogamy means no female on children violence. This was a big problem in Islamic societies in the past where the Sultan would have 37 wives and they'd all be trying to murder each other's children so that their own children would get treated better.

>>10177694
1.) I can't tell if youre kidding. If wives even played a role in the collapse it was a minor one at best.
2.3.) Extrapolating a problem exclusive to the highest elite to the masses, okay.

>>10174853
>For example, an ideal democratic ruler obeys the will of the people. They are merely a representative of the people
If the will of the people us immoral it is a sin for the leader you follow it. It is likely that every US president is in or is going to Hell. Only countries like like Poland and Hungary even have moral Christian leaders today.

>>10176869
You don't need a theological backing for your promiscuity.

>>10178059
You shouldn't choose your theology off your baser instincts but your most noble.

>>10176182
You did the right thing anon. Putting your mouth where another man's dick has been is gay and gross.

Catholic General in /pol/ if you're at all interested
>>>/pol/146309952

>>10179190
is going to /pol/ your idea of ministry in the modern age?

>>10179190
Literal, unironic, actual, link to reddit central.

>>10179190
Why is it every time you start that thread there's the Canadian guy posting schizo Catholic conspiracy theories and a flood of more of the same from other countries? Do they just sit around all day and shitpost that stuff in every thread with a vaguely Christian theme, dust their hands off feeling as if they've done the Lord's work?

If they're paid shills, who could they possibly be shilling for?

>>10179428
Clearly anything I don't like are from shills.

>>10179428
They're from a anti-Christian discord server spawned off hotwheels

>>10179528
>hotwheels
Sorry, what?

>>10179428

>and a flood of more of the same from other countries?

gee it's almost like those different people from countries all over the world are trying to tell you something but you don't want to hear it

>>10166415
Different reason: radtrads view themselves entirely in opposition to the liberals, so they feel security in taking the most anti-liberal position on any issue, even if this makes them more extreme than the pre-VII church actually was.

Liberals downplay mortal sin. Thus, radtrads have temptation towards viewing an excessive amount of human actions as clearly mortal sinful, leading to them suffering from scruples/anxiety. This mental state is what lead Luther to come up with sola fide: matter is evil, humans are ruled by passions, but I don't have to worry about salvation because I'm saved by faith alone.

Thus, combined with their attitude towards the Pope, sedes are basically just conservative high-church Lutherans in training. (Sedes=Pope is antipope; LCMS=Pope is anti-christ)

Anyone else sometimes feel like Catholicism has no real home on 4chan?

It's like most boards only get a piece of the total reality of our faith. /x/ gets the miracles, the visions, and the prophecies. /lit/ gets the literary works fueled by the faith, as well as some of the philosophy and theology. /his/ gets the rest of the philosophy and the theology, along with the history of the Church and its interaction in the world. /pol/ gets the current state of the Church and the faith, including the current goings-on with the pope and some of the major cardinals. We seem to be scattered across the site, in terms of the full scope of our experience.

>>10179711

>It's like most boards only get a piece of the total reality of our faith.

As it should be. This Albanian yak grooming forum isn't meant to be some exclusive proselytizing camp for you. You can make Catholic threads if you'd like, but Catholicism doesn't deserve anything more than an interchangeable general thread here. If you think you deserve anything more than that or preferential treatment in any sort of way then you can gtfo.

What do you guys think of venerable fulton sheen?

>>10180147
>The post Christian preacher describes pope Francis
Feels bad man

>>10180178
Only LARPers insult hte Pope

>>10172831
A spiritual director would be of much help, definitely.
I have a hard time calling the use of Catholicism to enter a more spiritual life idolatry, honestly. I feel it you are doing some injustice to Catholicism by how you picture it but it is so vague that I wouldn't be able to clarify without more information.

>>10173088
That's absolutely insane. If you can, seek another parish or file complaint. That is not right whatsoever.

>>10176142
I have no videos.
>the life of God as man, the creation of the church and the covenant that it's based in, provided an example model life and provided a grand means of showing reconciliation between man and God (The Gospels)
>The stories of the apostles after the gospel timeline ended (The Book of Acts)
>letters of someone given authority to guide the formation of the church (Paul's letters)
>a vision separate from it which foretells later events (Revelation)
>the historic and intellectual set up towards God's coming and the initial reasoning for God's initial coming (The entire Old Testament)
I'll give a breakdown of the Old Testament books next:

>>10181577
>The Pentateuch
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
The law and foundational stories to the creation of the nation of Israel and its law.

>Historical Books
Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st and 2nd Kings, 1-2. Maccabees, 1st and 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther

History of the nation during the reign of kings.

>Wisdom Literature
Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon, Wisdom, and Sirach
Important cultural landmarks intellectually for that nation and poetry.

>Prophet
Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, and Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi.
Part history, part prophetics. Mainly history.

>>10181577
>>10181581
With this understood, it is important to not treat the Bible as a book itself but a collection of them and pick and choose the order. The gospels and then Acts are your best options for a start.

All gospels are written as a mixture of information given about Jesus' life and the eyewitness accounts. Acts is eyewitness accounts as well.

If you want commentaries, I recommend the Ignatius Study Bible.

>>10176182
You're good, man. You did the right thing and drove home your point to them. You did the right thing.
I fucked up some weeks ago and became an affair for a woman who is a friend of mine. I don't think I can express the shame of it all, but it still bothers me. Great job on being the better man and following your conscience and reason rather than your desires.

>>10177554
U wonna fite m8

>>10174149
When you say "Christianity" what do you mean? Specific ethics? The nature of God? Historical claims?

>>10179428
There were Protestant anti-Catholics on /pol/ when christposting started picking up in 2014 but they were largely removed. Post-election, many Redditors came to flood into /pol/ and new ideas began to spring up which focused on how Christianity is Jewish and so wrong and villainous. They went into the key ideas of Christianity causing weakness and even began adopting the Protestant anti-Catholic information as well.

>>10181661
the religion, that Jesus is God and the Messiah etc

>>10181703

Explaining the whole system of thought is a mighty task for even a whole thread. Justifying the religion as a whole usually works as this:

>justify and defend the cosmology and, from it, the basis for its ethics (this will also give the basis for the possibility of the miraculous)
>justify and defend the accuracy of its historical events in at least a naturalistic sense
>provide arguments for how supernatural claims are true revelations of nature rather than just coincidence that they coincide with reality (for example, Aquinas taught that God at the burning bush said more about His nature than could ever be grasped at the time) so to justify calling these claims of the miraculous as accurate
>As justifying the the historic claims and worldview would then justify church authority, you now have the whole religion justified

I can give books that assist with all of this if you tell me where, precisely, you are.

>>10181808
i believe in God and I'm vaguely inclined to believe one of the Abrahamic religions are correct