/lit/ - Literature

to be fair im pretty sure he came first

>>10103583
I'm not debating that, but I think most people here would be more familiar with /pol/'s Cultural Marxism than Debord's Spectacle.

>>10103579
Chins on the guy in front more like society of the utensil amirite guise?

>>10103592
Newer version is Moldbug's concept of the Synagog

>>10103579
And it is a more accurate, more scathing description addressing more realistic problems than any mouth-breathing retard from /pol/ could produce.

>>10103592

But /pol/ is retarded

>>10103605
Is it the same thing? I've heard the term cathedral before but I've never read Moldbug so I don't really know his ideas. As a NRxer, Moldbug probably sees the whole thing inevitable and unstoppable correct?

>>10103579
It's much more than that.

>>10103579
It also:
1)Shows that reformism (Social Democracy) is doomed to failure,
2) Explains the mechanisms of material trickery at play in "industrial society" (something Kaczynski couldn't do), and,
3) Laid the intellectual foundation for Guattari and Baudrillard

That's at a minimum.

This is literally a Marxist butthurt that de Gaulle was popular and that revolutionary politics didn't look viable anymore in the Golden Age of Capitalism.

It is kind of dated by now. Rising inequality in the West has made revolutionary communism viable again, as shown by Negri.

>>10103579
>/pol/ discovers cultural marxism offers a better critique of cultural marxism

>>10103906
Revolutionary communism has never been less viable in the West. If anything what you'll see is the return of volkisch-type movements. Class conflict will be an issue but classlessness is not palpable to anybody.

>>10103592
Firebomb /pol/'s memes.

>>10103930
>Cultural Marxism is a meme
>Cultural Marxism came from /pol/
>>>/r/eddit

>>10103906
Of all people you pick Negri. At least Situationist writing had a style and a force of conviction. Even The Invisible Committee is better and they're equally larpers.

>>10103906
>the Golden Age of Capitalism.
This is the Plastic Age of Capitalism, anon.

>>10103934
>I have no idea what a meme is.
> I R 14

>>10103579
Its not like there isn't some truth in what /pol/ preaches, its more what they blame and their solutions where it goes wrong

>>10103966
Well the first thing I would point out is that their theoretical skill is seriously and fatally lacking. Their way of thinking servers better as a material for jokes.

>>10103966
>Its not like there isn't some truth in what /pol/ preaches, its more what they blame and their solutions where it goes wrong

Don't minimize their retardation.

It's like a guy who has heartburn, decides it means he has appendicitis, and his solution is to drink bleach and pour acid into his asshole.

>>10103963
>I talk like a retard but expect people to take me seriously

>>10104030
>>10104077
There's a higher level of discussion on 8/pol/ than there is anywhere on 4chan

>>10104094
You didn't need that arrow, anon.

>>10104107
>tfw you stop browsing lit in 2012 and you come back 5 years later and Butterfly is still fucking here

Get a fucking job

>>10104105
My experience tells me otherwise, although /lit/ truly is a shithole most of the time.
Even if true though I'd rather read the "cultural marxists" that /lit/ shitposts than read /pol/ discussions. Maybe try doing the same, you'll be surprised at how dumb /pol/'s "theories" sound in comparison.

>>10104122
I have had this one steady jarb for nearly ten fucking years now. I left for a whole year and now only make the occasional visit not yet totaling two weeks worth.
Get a pussy.

>>10103592
maybe if you're from /pol/ or reddit
you worthless insect

>>10103592
I sure hope not, that would be awful.

>>10104158
I've been going to multiple boards on both websites for years now and I stand by my statement. That's not to say there aren't still good boards on 4chan but most of them are shit and none of them are 8/pol/ quality, at least are far as that subject matter is concerned.

>>10103579
/pol/ would agree with most Marxist critiques. Actually most people probably would. They start losing people when they start proposing remedies.
Critiquing is really fucking easy. Building a functioning society that doesn't oppress the 3rd world, doesn't become a slave to autonomous capital, and tries to maximize the freedom and happiness of people is not so easy.

Why is the most retarded board even mentioned here ?

>>10103906
>Negri

No you don't.

The end-game (after Anders, Charbonneau, late-Debord and early Ouldamer) is l'Encyclopédie des Nuisances and their edition house.

Jaime Semprun, Miguel Amoros, René Riesel, Baudouin de Bodinat.

You can add to that list Jean-Pierre Voyer, the sociological writings of Alain Soral (late 90s and very early 2000s period), and Pièces et Main d'Oeuvre.

Nearly all French, I know.

>>10103906
>Negri

No you don't.

The end-game (after Anders, Charbonneau, late-Debord and early Ouldamer) is l'Encyclopédie des Nuisances and their edition house.

Jaime Semprun, Miguel Amoros, René Riesel, Baudouin de Bodinat.

You can add to that list Jean-Pierre Voyer, the sociological writings of Alain Soral (late 90s and very early 2000s period), and Pièces et Main d'Oeuvre.

Nearly all French, I know.

The denial about cultural marxism is hilarious considering Europeans were writing about cultural bolshevism ruining socities in 20s.

>>10105595
>alain soral
>unironically recommending memes

>>10105605
>The denial about cultural marxism is hilarious considering Europeans were writing about cultural bolshevism ruining socities in 20s.

You mean yellow journalism claiming that the USSR had socialized women and made them public property for sex

>>10103579
His Comments on the Society of the Spectacle book is better because he was older

>>10103635

>Is it the same thing? I've heard the term cathedral before but I've never read Moldbug so I don't really know his ideas. As a NRxer, Moldbug probably sees the whole thing inevitable and unstoppable correct?

It's similar, I'll give an explanation. He extensively uses neologisms, so you'll have to deal with it. The idea is that sovereigns manage internal control via "physarchy" (managing bodies, e.g. cops beating you at demonstrations) and "psycharchy" (managing minds, e.g. media and education). He then goes onto to say that psycharchy is the dominant mode of internal control by the Cathedral (a looping idea-generating structure between academics, the education system, and the media). One of the subsets of psycharchy is something he calls "massarchy", which is the system of internal control to control big segments of the masses via education and the media. It does this through a feedback loop between the masses and the influencers.

Basically, a generational cohort of voters in democracy get brought up on ideology within the education system (both lower and higher), while also being managed by the media in their lives. These voters and voteblocks are filled with ideas that the elites believe in and want implemented. The elites themselves are also caught up in the loop, as they get the same elite education (elite academic institutions where most of the Cathedral ideas come from). So essentially, the people tell power what they want implemented, which in turn just happens to be what the cathedral wants. Most of the middlemen -- teachers, educators, grad students, journalists -- are also indoctrinated by the higher education system to play a role in this.

No top-down conspiracy is needed, because it's like a giant feedback looping system that gets more intense as time goes on. It's like a backdoor exploit to democratic power.

It ends up not being that different from the critical theorists ideas, like Adorno, on the "culture industry." Except instead of being an epiphenomenon of capital that is tied up with passive desire, it is more like a primary phenomenon that is tied to active passions and power. Posts where he talks about this:

https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.hk/2007/12/neocameralism-and-escalator-of.html

https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.hk/2008/02/democracy-as-historical-phenomenon.html

>>10106026
>he thinks Vers la féminisation ? and Abécédaire de la bêtise ambiante are not great

>>10103906
autonomism is cancer, stop eating shit

>>10103593

Brékkek

>>10103579
Society of the Spectacle is a 10/10 examination of modern society. The criticisms are generally fair, and still very relevant.

>>10103934
>Cultural Marxism is a meme

The very model of a meme.

>>10103579
You clearly don't understand his concept of the "spectacle".

>>10106304
Except they aren't, because Debord liked to take agency away from people and failed to predict modern media.

Debord talks about relationships between people mediated by images, /pol/ talks about relationships between images mediated by Joos

>>10106383
>He's so stupid he can't even grasp /pol/'s arguments
Anon if you can't understand /pol/'s arguments then I don't know why you're even here, you're not going to be able to grasp anything in /lit/.

>>10106377
>liked to take agency away from people
>from a Marxist
Almond activated, all that.

>>10106419
k

>>10103579
Why can't people into using proper forms of Greek words? It's phenomenON you worthless fuck

|Marxist critical theory by Guy Debord
lmfao

>>10106377
>Debord liked to take agency away from people and failed to predict modern media
"Modern media" i.e. social media is even worse, it simulates agency while everybody is actually just a node with the system or a flow managed by the system. Better be alienated than integrated. That's where Debord is kinda outdated, not because he was too much of a pessimist.

>>10106419
LOL yeah, what a spurdo, 5d chess amirite?

How to escape the spectacle?

>>10103579
What they call cultural marxism isn't what Debord describes as spectacle. You need to read it again.

>>10107650
>Attempting to make fun of /pol/ with memes from /int/ and reddit
The absolute state of /lit/

>>10107815
I don't know what you just said but it was probably something about me being redpilled, thanks white brother, remember to read Culture of Critique when we finally build kekistan

>>10107832
You shouldn't tell other people to read if you can't read, newfriend

>>10107881
You're right. Of course, how foolish of me to not remember that reading is the primary method of the ivory tower postmodern cultural marxists in their efforts to suppress racial consciousness and the realization of the apex of human achievement in western civilization. This is a struggle not to be won through words but through memes. Shadilay, my friend.

>>10106056
Panegyric is the apex of his work desu

>>10103579
Society of the Spectacle: let's investigate reification under capitalism, how it's processes has transformed our interaction with other human beings and our own thought processes.

"Cultural Marxism": The jews are bringing all the black people here to keep me from getting a gf.

No anon, memes like "cultural marxism" is precisely a part of the spectacle.

>>10109038
>meme.
oh it's just pure coincidence that media, academia and state institutes are eroding the western heritage then, across europe and u.s. and only places where this doesn't happen are places like poland which are anticommunist as hell.

yeah, pure coincidence, just a meme goy.

>>10109038
Obscurantism and lying isn't tolerated here bud

>>10109038
>"Cultural Marxism": The jews are bringing all the black people here to keep me from getting a gf.

We're reaching levels of strawman that shouldn't even be possible

>>10109200
You people couldn't agree on a coherent definition of what "the white heritage" involves if your lives depended on it.

X>10110116
Obviously it refers to the Greco-Roman tradition that spread to parts of Europe and to the United States, and its morphed variants.

Don't know why this is such a complex thing for leftypol shills like (You)

>>10110234
>Greco-Roman tradition that spread to parts of Europe and the United States

Have you ever read a history book? If you think it's as simple as saying "Greeks make culture, Romans spread culture to Europe, Euros spread culture to America" I would recommend reading some primary sources from the Middle Ages.

>>10110276
>Attacking your own strawman to prove someone else wrong.

Really weird tactic you got there

>>10103919
lmao

>>10110286
This is the reductive argument most "traditionalists" make: Greeks made the culture, Romans took the culture, Euros got the culture. That's what I tried to parse from the meaningless pseud babble ("Greco-Roman tradition that spread to parts of Europe and to the United States, and its morphed variants.") that you wrote.

What were you trying to say?

>>10104077
haha fucking hell

>>10110304
No, you are again attacking your own strawman you created to disprove me. Highly ironic you call others ironic while you repeat this.

>>10110347
So why don't you clarify your argument?

>>10110381
Because I know from your hostile attacks in this thread and in the previous thread, that no definition will ever suit you because you are inherently anti-white.

>>10103906
Inequality has been falling in the U.K. for 30 years. Revolutionary communism is internationalist and could not be more the opposite of the unrest you are seeing now. I'm sure lots of people want "global class struggle"... in your head

>>10110415
I (>>10110276) am not >>10110116

All you're doing is proving that white nationalists are edgier, more easily offended liberals. Personally I detest you both

>>10109200
Pol is too keen to invoke conspiracy theories and not seriously look at what's gone wrong in the West and how it can be fixed

Moldbug is more interesting here. As is Faye etc

Pol is just obsessed with foreigners out --- greatness

>>10110116
It's European culture. Mediterranean (pre Islam), Germanic and Slavic. Derived from the classics but heavily influenced by Judaism via Christianity.

>>10110429
How am I edgy? What have I said, that is edgy? That white culture and western heritage exist? Is that now, considered, edgy?

Bloom is edgy too, then.

>>10110457
Being "pro-white" is the edgy, contrarian political posture de jour. It's what New Atheism was in 2007. Calling anything "anti-white" is pretty much euphoric, and it's something Bloom refrains from doing

>>10110475
Bloom acknowledges Western heritage by proxy of being one of the biggest speakers of pro-Western canon (despite people crying its too anglocentric these days) Which was the wording in my original post too.

>>10103963
Are you actually the original butterfly? If so
1. You sound a little more composed congrats
2. Why would you still post here considering you made a complete fool of yourself previously, your raging autistic.

If you are just using butterflys name; why.

>>10104077
Saved

>>10110116
R u this dumb

Just because you cant perfectly define something doesnt mean it isnt real

Define in a perfect and concise way happiness. Freaking pleb thinks happiness is real what an idiot.

>>10110475
>using french words when you could of perfectly used good ol english.

Just get the heck out of here vermin.

>>10110475
>posture de jour
It's posture DU jour you faggot

>>10105595
>Soral

And recommending Voyer over here is pure madness; anyway his latest ramblings are Soral-tier, without the "punch a Conversano" part

>>10103579
thing is that /pol/ did not invent the term but they frequently use it if that is what you refer to

>>10110475
So you could lose your job or go to jail for being atheist in 2007?

>>10103934
half correct, it did not come from /pol/ but just like santa claus it is textbook definition of a meme

>>10103579
/pol/ would probably enjoy reading Debord and Adorno if they could get past le critical theory boogeyman

>>10110475
I agree it seems a bit on trend and that makes it appear lightweight, but there are valid points. Culture and race are linked

>>10110671
Those that grew up went to /leftypol/, with or without Debord and Adorno.

>>10110671
>/pol/
>reading

>>10110692
The average age on leftypol is about 14 and you know this. Leftism is inherently immature. No one whose met a lot of people and worked with them in different environments can believe in equality as being true or desireable. The rightwards drift with age is seen in all classes and all societies; it is not linked to becoming wealthier

>>10110723
There's nothing sadder than a 40 year old that believes in a socialist revolution

>>10110723
its more of a financial situation thing, I'm a closeted leftist myself but I always support right-wingers so I can pay less taxes, had I been poor I would mostly vote for social democrats. I'm not so engaged that I would quit my well paying job and join dead unions, unless I see a revolution on sight I'll just keep on supporting the status quo

>>10110757
>social democrats
>leftist

wew

>>10110760
You think current poor working class people can actually organize a revolution? social democrats are their only option

>>10110766
Do you mean democratic socialists? Social democrats and democratic socialists are different things

>>10103579
>/pol/ calls cultural Marxism consumerism
Fucks sake, cultural Marxism is the synthesis between Marxist and Post Modern philisophy that are reconciled through critical theory and are expressed via socdem, demsoc, and anarcho feminists leanings.

How many more times to I have to explain the difference between historical and colloquial meanings, it's basic semantics ffs.

T./pol/

>>10110671
I did. I like Dialectic of Enlightenment , but The Authoritarian Personality is just blatantly trying to pathologize the dialectic of the right wing.

>>10110692
>Tfw used to be anarchist then became a fascist

>>10110774
I know, social democrats are the only accepted alternative in a liberal democracy, high taxes and good public services are as left as it can get for poor people under capitalism.
I'm ideologically a commie

>>10110789
>>Tfw used to be anarchist then became a fascist
so you read Nick Land

don't worry, you'll grow out of that too

>>10110799
>Nick Land
Literally who

I used to be a big fan of Chomsky tho

>>10110778
t.pseud

>>10110797
Don't give up on the revolution. It's coming any day now...

>>10110799
Oh wait the dark enlightenment guy. Yeah I've never read him. Been meaning to though. No I just don't think prols have he ability to govern themselves without an aristocratic hierarchy being their to control them.

>>10110807
T.brainlet

>>10110805
>doesn't know nick land
lurk moar
I'm the opposite, went from fascist to a weird mix of christianity and communism

>>10110818
>Instead of islamig gommunism he has embraced gr*stian gommunism
Huh

>>10110811
Eh, even if it were to happen today it would take like 100 years for communism to be achieved

>>10110811
>>10110757
But why is it desirable? Why is a world of equality good? It goes against every principle of nature? It lowers the best people do the standards of the mob? I also am fairly critical of market cap I think it's quite degrading and drags you to the lowest level in its own way but communism is abhorrent. I dislike this idea that communism is a nice idea which can't work in reality. It's a sick idea that would be worse than it's failed attempts if it were achieved

>>10111250
there's no such thing as nature

>>10110827
>he thinks communism would ever be achieved

>>10105595
can you give me the tl;dr on these authors you cited?
i used to read Debord but mostly struggled to make sense of it
what's new half a century later?

>>10106377
>failed to predict modern media
imho he was as close in his 'predictions' as one could get at the time

>>10106383
*scribbling furiously*

>>10107660
global coordinated high-energy electromagnetic pulses desu
or a major impact event

>>10109200
shut up fucking muppet

>>10110437
>Mediterranean
>white
>Judaism
>white
just add the fucking bonobos in your list while you're at it

>>10103583
Cultural Marxism is a propaganda term invented by the Nazis to turn their people against Bolshevism about a dozen years after their own country helped them take power. 90% of what you see today on /pol/ has been said by the Nazis 80 years ago.

>>10113659
>a dozen years after
False. There are mags from the 1920-22 that write about cultural bolshevism.

Why are you dishonest?

>>10110581
>you could of
stop hurting my brain plz

>>10113663
Could be. Does that change my point in any way?

>>10113677
It seems like you are doing some ad hoc stuff in there when you had the basis of your argument wrong.

Bump

>>10113617
Basically post-situationists that grew up and became luddite reactionaries.

Voyer is very bizarre but in a good way.
Soral is a marxist (ikr :/) sociologist but 2 of his works are really great. He tries too hard nowadays.
PMO is luddite and very anti-transhumanism. They were supposed to be leftists but as they oppose surrogacy and insultet feminists and trans they're now labeled as fascists.

>>10110797
Social democracies actually have a good track record and uphold liberal values like free speech and enterprise.

Communism has been an utter horrorshow. And you're dumb for believing in it.

>>10110789
>>Tfw used to be anarchist then became a fascist
So you decided to remain an edgy larper?

Bump

>>10115580
>free speech
Burger meme
>entreprise
I work as a financial engineer whose job is to bankrupt unproductive businesses through predatory debts so I'm probably scum by every leftist standard, but trust me, after seeing how human relations tend to be in entreprises, its really not something one would count as a good liberal value.
Democracy is inherently incompatible with capitalism, while I did say I'm a communist ideologically, I'm not a socialist.
I just think communism would be a better society to live in, but since I make my living through finance I'm not thrilled about a socialist revolution.

>>10115226
did you also grow out of it?
what's next?

>>10117677
There's only one proper final stage for all you larpers who still believe in critique and resistance. Both have been short-circuited by the system. Why read Debord or Marx when TV executives and bankers cynically boast to the public about what's going on? Why even riot when the system already has all the cards stacked against you and its internal catastrophes are hundred times more self-destructive than any of your deliberate attacks could possibly be?
Fate is much better at resistance than any of your carefully developed strategies.

>>10117778
contemporary marxists sure know how to turn you into a pessimist

>>10117868
But that's not pessimism at all, it's merely shifting the potential for resistance from subjects to objects. It replaces the nostalgic all too human strategies with an ironic "strategy" of the system destroying itself through its own obsessions.
As in security hysteria causing massive economic damage to corporations through governmental preventative measures. Or technologies intended to connect people across the globe causing more social conflict and divide. Or people so individualized and isolated in their virtual bubbles that various politicians and entrepreneurs, sensing the social decay, have now started blabbering about "community building".
No deliberate and organized attempt by some group of anarchists could achieve such effects. Only the system is powerful enough to damage the system, in the realm of power the rest of us are today only its hostages. With no one opposing it from the outside anymore the system can only turn against itself in its passion for exercising power.
What actually turns you into a pessimist is still believing that the only possible resistance is a deliberate and organized attempt by subjects - when that clearly has not been working in decades and is so obviously impossible in the current state of things.

>>10118044