/lit/ - Literature

>>23205823
>>23206822
Great Artists as artists are rarely not self-involved, depravedly narcissistic-- this counts against neither Wagner nor Nietzsche, having different createive & aesthetic aims. It's to be lamented one nor the other lent their strength to the projects of each other-- but if you want freedom, you must die.

>>22927670
By doing both at once. :D

>>22862488
Which one? One of his music dramas? Opera and Drama? The entire prose works?

Because the other one went to shit.

I think Wagner is one of the most interesting thinkers of the past 200 years, (far better than that resentful bitch Nietzsche), and it's such a shame that he's been relatively forgotten except for his music. Even then, I believe the actual content of the operas also deserves to be discussed more, like the whole prize-song contest from Die Meistersinger and all that entails. Anyway, here's an excerpt from Art and Revolution which I quite like:

>These gladiators and fighters with wild beasts, were sprung from every European nation; and the kings, nobles, and serfs of these nations were all slaves alike of the Roman Emperor,
who showed them, in this most practical of ways, that all men were equals; just as, on the
other hand, he himself was often shown most palpably by his own Pretorian Guard, that he
also was no more than a mere slave.
>This mutual and general slavery—so clear, that no one could gainsay it—yearned, as every universal feeling of the world must yearn, for an adequate expression of itself. But the manifest degradation and dishonour of all men; the consciousness of the complete corruption of all manly worth; the inevitably ensuing loathing of the material pleasures that now alone were left; the deep contempt for their own acts and deeds, from which all spirit of Genius and impulse of Art had long since joined with Freedom in her flight; this sorrowful existence, without actual aimful life,—could find but one expression; which, though certainly universal as the condition that called it forth, must yet be the direct antithesis of Art. For Art is pleasure in itself; in existence, in community; but the condition of that period, at the close of the Roman mastery of the world, was self-contempt, disgust with existence, horror of community. Thus Art could never be the true expression of this condition: its only possible expression was Christianity.

>>22412426
>A lotta loyalty for a hired weeb

>>22142537
>The old world, speaking strictly, knew but one poet, and named him "Homeros." The Greek word "Poietes," which [138] the Latins—unable to translate it—reproduced as" Poeta," recurs most naïvely among the Provençals as "Trouvère," and suggested to our Middle-high Germans the term of "Finder," Gottfried von Strassburg calling the poet of Parzival a "Finder wilder Märe" (" finder of strange tales "). That "poietes "—of whom Plato averred that he had found for the Greeks their gods—would seem to have been preceded by the "Seer," much as the vision of that ecstatic shewed to Dante the way through Hell and Heaven. But the prodigy of the Greeks' sole poet—"the"—seems to have been that he was seer and poet in one; wherefore also they represented him as blind, like Tiresias. Whom the gods meant to see no semblance, but the very essence of the world, they sealed his eyes; that he might open to the sight of mortals that truth which, seated in Plato's figurative cavern with their backs turned outwards, they theretofore could see in nothing but the shadows cast by Show, This poet, as "seer," saw not the actual (das Wirkliche), but the true (das Wahrhaftige), sublime above all actuality; and the fact of his being able to relate it so faithfully to hearkening men that to them it seemed as clear and tangible as anything their hands had ever seized—this turned the Seer to a Poet. Was he "Artist" also?
>We came to the conclusion that all Greek genius was but an artistic re-editing of Homer, whilst in Homer himself we refused to recognise the artist. Yet Homer knew the "Aoidos" (4) nay, he himself perhaps was "singer" also?—To the sound of heroic songs the chorus of youths approached the mazes of the "imitative" dance. We know the choral chants to the priestly ceremonies, the dithyrambic choral dances of the Dionysian rites. What [141] there was inspiration of the blind seer, becomes here the intoxication of the open-eyed ecstatic, before whose reeling gaze the actuality of Semblance dissolves to godlike twilight. Was the "musician" artist? I rather think he made all Art, and became its earliest lawgiver.
For a comprehensive explanation of Art, what it is, what it means, and how it came to be, read Wagner.

https://musictreatises.nifc.pl/en/traktaty/27-abhandlung-von-der-fuge-vol-iii
full translation of marpurg's cp and fugue treatise from 1753

in preface he mentions dozens of earlier authors ("those i've read and those i haven't, in case my opponent wants to accuse me of plagiarising them too")
>inb4 reading the preface, ever

>>22082822
>Nietzsche BTFO
Yes he was.

>I promptly determined to become a poet; and
sketched out tragedies on the model of the Greeks, urged by my acquaintance with Apel's
works: Polyidos, Die Ätolier, &c., &c. Moreover, I passed in my school for a good head "in litteris;" even in the 'Third form' I had translated the first twelve books of the Odyssey. For a while I learnt English also, merely so as to gain an accurate knowledge of Shakespeare; and I made a metrical translation of Romeo's monologue. Though I soon left English on one side, yet Shakespeare remained my exemplar, and I projected a great tragedy which was almost
nothing but a medley of Hamlet and King Lear. The plan was gigantic in the extreme; two-and-forty human beings died in the course of this piece, and I saw myself compelled, in its
working-out, to call the greater number back as ghosts, since otherwise I should have been
short of characters for my last Acts. This play occupied my leisure for two whole years.

>The Redeemer is redeemed
What did Wagner mean by this?

>>21833625
Nietzsche was a neurotic failed academic who's entire basis for his philosophy was a complete denial of reality as way of cope for his own shortcomings. When confronted with the closest proof he was every going to get for God's existence he denied it, cut himself off from everyone around him, and proceeded to go insane.
It's a sad tale, for the early Nietzsche may have been an intelligent man, if not completely brilliant, but his neurosis ruined him. His Philosophy, it barely deserves mentioning, is nonsense.

>>21776027
No, read the guy Mahler (and pretty much every other late-romantic composer) ripped off.

(The Best)
Plato
Shakespeare
Wagner

(Excellent)
Architecture
Symphony
Poetry

(Good)
Literature
Theatre
Motion Pictures
Church Music
Other music (Concertos, Cantatas, etc.)

(Alright)
Opera
Paintings
Folk-Song

>Wagner produces Tanhauser a work about love triumphing over lust and the redemptive power of Christianity and mercy of God
>Nietzsche does not mind this
>Wagner produces Parsifal, another extremely Christian work
>Nietzsche copes and seethes and completely splits from Wagner and starts denouncing everything he did
I don't get it. Why did Nietzsche chimp out so badly over Parsifal?

>>21628572
No he wasn't.

t.Wagner

furtwängler contra nietzsche, not gonna repost everything:
>>/lit/image/RSZkWBNOmXucFajKcSFCxg

wagners collected writings, deeds and sayings

>>21355775
Christ (through music).

cosima diaries

If Wagner is engaging in poiesis in music like no other composer before him, and is expressing in music what was prior only expressed in literature, is his music literature? To say nothing of his poetry itself.

>>21229235
i believe this
umberto ruined bavaria financially, then ditched his ludwig persona and went full incognito mode as nietzsche.

>Then he talks about actors, who put everything into words, and he thinks of the terrible meaning this free speaking acquires in the figure of Hamlet. He remarked how foolish it was to ascribe a general philosophical meaning to his “To be or not to be”—it was just Hamlet speaking.

>implying wagner needs blessing by any of these wingmanlets

total work of ard :DDDDD