/lit/ - Literature

>>23307381
>It's hard for an outsider even to convert to Christianity because there are so many sects claiming to have the true message of Jesus

Indeed. And Christ speaks directly to this issue in John 17:20-23, where he prays for unity in the Church, **so that the world will accept His divinity**:

>My prayer is not for them (the Apostles) alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
>that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
>May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me,
>that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
>Then the world will know that you sent me. – John 17:20-23

And *this* is why Christ instituted what theologians call The Petrine Ministry, i.e., the Papacy. The Papacy is the source of unity. And indeed throughout history it has achieved a remarkable, worldwide unity. But the world is broken and fallen, and as a result that unity is not perfect.

>Protestant Objection: The Holy Spirit is the source of unity.

Hypothetically, one might think so. It seems to make sense.

But as a practical matter, once the Reformation occurred, and Protestant Christians removed themselves from the authority of the Papacy, what happened?

They immediately began dividing from each other because they could not agree on the meaning of scripture. They could not agree, for example, on whether infants should be baptized, or the meaning of the words "This is My body." Among many other issues.

Now, Protestants say that in interpreting the Bible, they pray and are led by the Holy Spirit. And I don't dispute that. But the proof is in the pudding -- in the history of Protestant division. The Holy Spirit does *not* lead Protestants to unity. The Holy Spirit does *not* lead them to a uniform and unified understanding of Scripture.

I believe the Petrine Ministry was created by Christ because He understood human nature. Unity is not found absent a real, rather than a merely abstract (such as the Bible) source of unity, and that source He established with the Petrine Ministry, the papacy: "Upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

>And what of the Orthodox?
Of course, the Orthodox reject the Catholic understanding of the Petrine Ministry.

Now this is a story with a very long and complex history. And there are two sides to the story; and for every argument there is a counter-argument. With that said, I do think the Catholic Church has the better of the argument. For instance, a recently published book, pic related, is a Catholic apologetic directed primarily towards Orthodox claims. Of necessity, it gets deep into the weeds. If you're interested in getting into the weeds, here's one such article:

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/that-time-the-eastern-churches-accepted-papal-infallibility

>>23002353
Then read his book(s), since you're so hardcore, anon.

>>21603508
These are all fair points. I can only imagine - and my imagination is obviously fallible and limited - that a judgment was made that more good would come out of establishing a long-lived, unified, hierarchical institution with teaching authority than it would with the possible alternatives, and despite the fact that large hierarchical institutions inevitably bring along a host of problems in their wake. When functioning properly, they can do a lot of good - more than any individual can - but when not, can cause a lot of damage.

I would note that one could likewise speculate as to the wisdom, timing and practicality of how the whole Messiah business was handled.

> If the church changes something and then a follower believes it wrongly, why should they be punished? They could not have known differently.
I believe that God will judge justly and mercifully in all such cases. Indeed, He cannot do otherwise.