/lit/ - Literature

>>23267492
>How is one to choose the "correct" church?

Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church when He walked the earth.

At His word the Church is founded on Peter the Rock.

By His promise we know the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His Church.

Against all odds, for 2000 years, Christ has kept that promise -- and indeed He will keep it until the end of time.

In an uncertain world, that is one thing you can count on.

For anyone who is interested, the biblical and historical case for Catholicism is laid out concisely here:

https://www.catholic.com/tract/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

Jesus said his Church would be “the light of the world.” He then noted that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and many churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth century. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

>>20569985
The papacy is consistent with the biblical evidence and the history of the Church.

>>20394673
>"And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."

What is the basis for your inferring that the "he" in this sentence is Christ?

>>20394675
The Petrine ministry, aka the papacy, was established by Jesus Christ. The biblical basis for this claim is summarized in the attached.

>>19489076
>That's simply bald assertion
It's simply an historical fact -- if you accept the NT as history, that is. Pic related (includes citations!).

In a nutshell, Jesus gave certain of His followers the authority to teach. Matthew 28. See also: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-teaching-authority-of-the-church

The early Christians recognized that the apostles were sent by Christ and endowed with the authority to teach in his name.

Apostolic succession, in turn, is the line of bishops that stretches back to the apostles.

The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible.

To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy,
>“[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2) (that's a citation, friendo).

In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture. Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases.

Thus the early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, “[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? ... The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation.... Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it” (Early Christian Doctrines, 37) (citation!).

For the early Fathers, “the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles.... [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are ... Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’” (ibid.)(ibid!).

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>>19480610
Nope. The Petrine Ministry was clearly established by Jesus Christ, when he declared Peter, Rock, and gave him, individually, "the keys to the kingdom of heaven."

The office developed just as the Church as a whole developed -- organically, over time, as it grew larger and larger, from local in Jerusalem, to regional, to national, to international, to perduring internationally over a period of centuries.

The post-biblical era Petrine Ministry is evidenced as early as Pope Clement in the first century, Pope Victor, and so on.

The biblical and historical case is irrefutable, but the Petrine Ministry, like Christ Himself, is a rock of stumbling, and many have and will continue to stumble against it, and kick against the goad. Regardless, the papacy will continue, not because of the holiness of its occupants, but because THE OFFICE OF THE PAPACY WAS ESTABLISHED BY JESUS CHRIST, AND IS PROTECTED -- AND ALWAYS WILL BE PROTECTED -- FROM TEACHING ERROR IN MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

>>19431405
>Where does it say you should "revere" the saints?

Prayer to saints: https://www.catholic.com/tract/praying-to-the-saints

Veneration of saints: https://www.catholic.com/tract/saint-worship

>Where is the pope and his infallibleness said?

Biblical Basis for Papacy: https://www.catholic.com/tract/peter-and-the-papacy

Authority of Pope Recognized by the Early Church Fathers (Part I): https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-i

Authority of Pope Recognized by the Early Church Fathers (Part II): https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-ii

What is 'Infallibility'?: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/infallibility

Papal Infallibility: https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility

See also pic related.

>>19427078
>I'm drawn towards Orthodoxy because the idea of an infallible Pope contradicts my basic view of the world (that only God is infallible)

Do you understand the basics of the doctrine of papal infallibility, i.e., the Church's self-understanding of the meaning of the doctrine (see: https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility)), and the doctrine's biblical and historical basis (https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-papacy-in-scripture-no-rocks-required)?

>only God is infallible
Do you believe scripture is inerrant?

>Why do you choose Catholicism over Orthodox Christianity, lit?
I think the Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ. I think this belief is entirely reasonable, being well grounded both in scripture and in the history of the Church.

>>19427166
>And isn't it kind of odd that Pope's are elected before they become godlike?

Well, they're appointed to an office, the bishop of Rome, aka the seat of Peter or Petrine Ministry. The powers of the papacy arise from that appointment, which is consistent with biblical practice, e.g., Acts 1:15-26 (not an exact analogy to appointment to the papacy, but a scriptural example of the significance of being appointed to an 'office', and also of a somewhat surprising method for choosing the appointee (by drawing lots)).

>>19410347
>There really is no solid rationale for submitting to the Pope, is there?

Well, the office was clearly established by Christ, pic related.

Here's a young Catholic who defends the doctrine in conversation with a thoughtful young Protestant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue2o-ZVdWYE

>>19371319
>So your idea of a deep dive into history is an info graphic, ok that makes sense then
No, I am only posting that infographic for its density of information, and shareability.
>Tell you what, can you even name a Christian origi s historian or textbook from the field?
Yesterday, I was reading Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, which is pretty much the defining text on the topic. The best source is the primary sources themselves, though, which is why I really enjoy reading the earliest fathers of the church, especially the ante-Nicene fathers.
>You ARE deep in history right?
Yes, which is why I had to abandon my non-denominational Protestant heresy, and become Catholic.
>>19371323
>I think what these early Christians were addressing as "Catholic" has nothing to do with today's Catholic church.
Yes, the Orthodox church today also calls themselves the Catholic church. I believe the claims for the Catholic church today as being that original church mentioned in the ecumenical councils is most convincing. It would be much easier for me to be a member of one of the many "Orthodox" churches, but so far, the evidence I have seen put forward by their best apologists and thinkers are not as convincing to me as the claims of the Catholic church. Thus, I believe that the One, True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (including the Catholic church mentioned by Athanasius and Ignatius of Antioch) is the Catholic church, not one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

>>19298826
>Lapsed Catholic here, born into the church. Is the catechism of the church a good starting book?

It's very good, but it kind of depends on where *you* are starting from.

I think a pretty good starting point may be this very concise explanation of the biblical and historical basis for the Catholic claim:

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth
https://www.catholic.com/tract/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

It's also good to have a basic understanding of the historical basis for belief in the existence of Christ, and His Resurrection. There are many books and articles that address this issue, but one I particularly like, although it's not written specifically from a Catholic pov, is: Michael Green, Was Jesus Who He Said He Was? It's out of print, the last I checked, but inexpensive used copies are available on amazon.

>>19147396
>Why are you so obsessed with finding people who disagree with you to validate your religion?

I like /lit/ and I like the Joyce quote. It's right to the point. Deal with it.

>>17477383
Long story short. I was born into it, lost my faith in my teens, prayed for the grace of faith while teetering between agnosticism and atheism, and over a three-year period, my mind gradually became convinced of the existence of God.

I then became aware of a particular argument for the Resurrection, the gist of which is set forth in McDowell, More than a Carpenter, a short book I highly recommend, for the evidence it presents, not as any great work of literature. Once I became persuaded of the truth of the Resurrection, it was a short path (more or less) back to the Catholic Church, whose bona fides, in my view, utterly outstrip the claims of every competing Christian denomination.

Wrt the Orthodox, I am firmly convinced, by scripture and history, that the Papacy is an institution established by Christ, and indeed a necessary institution given the vagaries of human nature; there must be a final authority.

>>17157709
Matthew 16:17-19

>>16548142
>believing the Pope was chosen by God