/lit/ - Literature

>>23399313
The Authorized Version is a good way to cross check translations of the original Hebrew and Greek, but it's not absolutely necessary. I get accused of being a "KJV onlyist" and similar things despite this.

>>23331898
>Not to mention our society is so different now that a lot of these stories are worthless.
That would probably be true if it weren't for the fact that the whole thing is inspired by God and therefore actually timeless. It only appears otherwise to those who haven't been given insight into it by God as mentioned here >>23329787

>most people don't possess the historical understanding to understand the underlying meanings.
That would be true if it weren't for the fact that God inspired the meaning and God also helps people today understand it. The common factor here is God. Otherwise of course it wouldn't be possible, and it wouldn't really matter that much what they wrote anyway, like any other manmade book. The only reason it matters and is relevant is because it is nothing other than God's word to all of us. And because of that, it's not impossible to understand as long as you are praying to God for help.

"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"
(Luke 11:9-13)

Notice what Jesus says at the end there. He will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. The Bible also says this:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
(Hebrews 11:6)

"I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me."
(Proverbs 8:17)

"The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth."
(Psalm 145:18).

Amen.

>>22880503
>Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.
Yes, there are a multitude of people rejecting the New Testament, which is part of the Bible and was given by the apostles. They reject the Bible in favor of their manmade traditions. Consider for example what Paul said about the apostles' word in 2 Thessalonians.

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
- 2 Thessalonians 3:6

>>22529250
Not really, they were just a gnostic cult. The talmud has nothing to do with the Bible in reality. In reality, it is the God of the Bible who is the Lord and sovereign of the whole universe.

>>22384990
The Geneva Bible was used by puritans from 1560 to around the 1640s, which is when Cambridge University had been printing more accurate (and readable) KJV editions. The older ones were riddled with typographic errors and they didn't like that. The two translations are very similar in the main text in any case, and the 1611 KJV is very clearly influenced by lots of the Geneva translations.

The reason I think the KJV did better was because it had a bigger committee and more time to do a careful and thorough revision, and look at all of the manuscripts and editions of the received text, basically taking everything into account. And then they spent more time and put more people to work on each passage. However, most of their work in practice would have involved checking and verifying the correct existing translations in the earlier English Bibles and confirming them for inclusion, and less frequently did they actually change anything significant as far as main text goes.

>>22306505
>The Jewish understanding of the Spirit has always been...
You're listening to a gnostic group of talmudists from the middle ages, not actual Old Testament Israel. The fact you're even allowing yourself to be subverted by such illegitimate groups seems to reflect the fact you haven't looked into these things too much.

>I think most Christians don't pray to the Holy Spirit while still believing it is God.
What about what it says in John then?

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
- John 14:16-17

"As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away."
- Acts 13:2-3

>>22173961
Here are the passages:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
- 1 Corinthians 15:50-55

Bonus passage:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
- Revelation 20:4-6

"Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
- Job 19:23-27

"But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah."
- Psalm 49:15

The New Testament also has references to the believers' resurrections, honestly way too many times to count.

>>22119563
Lastly, the baptism of households clearly refers to those who are capable of believing who are in them. See for instance the jailer in Acts chapter 16.

"And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."
- Acts 16:33-34

People often quote verse 33 here, pointing out that his whole household was baptized. But, if you look in the next verse, which is Acts 16:34, it also says that his whole house believed in God as well. Either there are no infants here or they are only part of these groups by synecdoche.

>>22091011
In a very technical sense, this is correct, since you only want to be reading the original inspired word of God, and not anything else that has been changed or corrupted later. Fortunately, you can do this by picking up the TR (received text) or a quality TR-based translation such as the KJV. Then you can get to what the apostles and prophets wrote.

>>21880159
>This is largely historical revisionism. We find some few and rare examples of a seeming contradiction. Do we suppose St. Jerome looked at only one document or talked only to one master?
I don't think the DRB or the Sixtine/Clementine Vulgate accurately represents the translation done by Jerome, for example they use a modified version of the Old Latin Psalms instead of the translation made by Jerome.

I do generally consider the ancient Latin translations, including that done by Jerome, but also others, to be intended to be accurate and reflecting the Greek originals. But I also think it's important to have a translation that is as accurate to the inspired word of God as given to the apostles, which means Greek for the New Testament, as possible. I do not think this is an impossible task, and I am encouraged by what the Lord informs us in Acts 2 where the apostles were able to speak the word of God in many different tongues by divine intervention.

>Daily vs. Transubstantial bread is an excellent example. The Latin word is the same, and yet Jerome gives two translations of it.
You mean the Greek word is the same, and he gives two different Latin translations of it?

>It is foolish to think that our analysis now is more accurate when we are further from the events with fewer materials.
We should not trust in men or human analysis at all, but in the Holy Spirit of God to guide us into all truth. And our Lord can lead us into the truth just as much as ever. Blessed are they that trust in the Lord. Like it says in Matthew 23:

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."
- Matthew 23:8-10

>How then can we know what is a difficulty and what is a mistake?
Through the authority of the Holy Spirit, ultimately.

>>21863193
Evil is a privation of good. Insofar as God gives grace and goodness according to His infinite wisdom, evil is a result of sinning or refusing to accept God's grace. It can be found in terms of moral evil, which is an inward corruption representing sin, or natural evil, which is outward destruction. In the Biblical account, the Lord can directly bring natural evil as a punishment toward those who demonstrate moral evil, but it is said that God is not the author of sin.

As it says in Jeremiah 19:5 for instance, "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:"

>>21654187
>I mean, that take makes it harder for me to believe that anyone actually knows what is real doctrine and what isn't (at least anyone I encounter) because they could just as easily be a part of the wrong camp (even earnest study can produce incorrect interpretation unfortunately)
True but I don't think this is (or needs to be) a hindrance.

As far as incorrect interpretation goes, it is true that no matter how much time you spend, it won't do you any good without actually asking God to help you and having the Holy Spirit be there to guide the individual believer into all truth.

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
(1 Cor. 2:12-14)

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
(John 14:16-17)

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
(John 14:26)

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:"
(John 16:13)

See also 1 John 2:27, 2 Cor. 1:21, Eph. 1:12-14 and so on for more.

>seemed earlier that you were saying that belief in god was enough to bestow the wisdom of the holy spirit
I think if you have a love of the truth (1 Thess. 2:13, 2 Thess. 2:10) then you will diligently seek it (Hebrews 11:6, Luke 11:9-13).

>>21442834
>why 4 days, why 2 months
The four days could have been four consecutive days in the year or one day every three months, it's not specifically explained so the detail is immaterial. We can be sure, fortunately, however, that if any greater detail about this were important to the account then we would have it. These four days must have just been a custom that became established for some unknown amount of time, although we hear no further direct mention of it in another biblical account, suggesting that it didn't become a "perpetual custom" as we see of some other customs that came into play later.

The two months seems to be a request made by the daughter to both the father and implicitly to the Lord - to whom the vow was made. As the father is the authority figure, so Jephthah giving leave to his daughter would be sufficient justification for her to spend those two months in mourning. Some have suggested that Jephthah would be able to trade out his daughter for a substitute sacrifice according to the law, but that doesn't explain the wording of Judges which is that Jephthah did precisely as he said; nor does this explain his reaction upon seeing his daughter. Indeed, there is no concept anywhere of a "celibacy" requirement for those dedicated in service to the Lord (e.g. Samson, Samuel), so the only reason why Jephthah's daughter would bewail her virginity would have to be her impending death in a burnt sacrifice. While this is indeed a monstrous act, we must extend the monstrosity of that act back to Jephthah's original vow. This whole situation also serves to emphasize that "going back on a vow" would be even worse still than this act. As mentioned before, this is a cautionary tale, which God has often placed in the Old Testament for our admonition. See for instance Jude 1:7,

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

In this case, Sodom and Gomorrha are set forth for an example to us of the Lord's vengeance against their particular type of wickedness. So too here is an example of the true weight and magnitude of one's words and that which can result from having to carry through a vow. Like James says, "Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!" (James 3:5)

So then, Jephthah's daughter was indeed offered as a burnt offering. As mentioned before, even the nazarites were never required to maintain celibacy, so that's not a possible explanation. That kind of requirement isn't something that is found anywhere in the law of God (see 1 Tim. 4:3). Rather, this daughter of Jephthah was such that, rather than mourn for her life imminently being brought to an end, she would rather mourn her virginity (her 'telos' as we understand: 1 Tim 2:15), which would be for the reasons mentioned above.

>>21440255
Bowing down to a manmade idol is the sin of idolatry. All idolators will give the stock excuses for this action but the simple fact is that idolators are worshipping something other than God which they believe to be deites or divinities, false gods, whatever you want to call it, and this is idolatry which is a very prominent and easily identified sin. It doesn't matter what man does it, no matter how rich or powerful they are, it doesn't matter how many people do it, it is still a sin. Just like we see in the book of Daniel for instance where Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow down to the golden image. Modern Catholicism today is no different than the golden image worshipping of that time, nor is it different from those who bowed down to stocks and stones like it says in Jeremiah.

"Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us."
(Jer. 2:27)

In the New Testament we are urged that all idolators will have their place in the lake of fire, and this is very much a sin and always has been.

I honestly don't understand what you can get from other books that you can't get from this. I'm not even a judgy thumper.

I honestly don't understand what you can get from other books that you can't get from this. I'm not even a judgy thumper.