/lit/ - Literature

>>18375878
Pederasty was not 'pedophilic' in a way different from Greek heterosexuality. Greek men tended to get married when they were 30 years old, to girls who were about 14. Pederastic relationships were typically between boys in their teens and men in their 20s, so the age gap was actually slightly less than in Greek heterosexual relations.
>But the heroes were not homos.
Greek mythology wasn't static so many Greek gods and heroes had lots of male as well as female partners attributed to them:
-Zeus had Ganymede
-Apollo had Admetus, Branchus, carnus, Cyparissus, Hyacinth, Hymen, and Phorbas
-Hercacles had Abderus, Admetus, Corythus, Eurysthus, Hylas, Iolaus, Nireus, Polystratus, and Sostratus
>Achilles was not gay for his friend.
Not in Homer, but yes in Aeschylus, Plato, Pindar, Theocritus etc.

>>18286940
>>conformity with all things good, noble and beautiful
the love between men,. only lower souls love women..

>>18192174
>>18192218
>>18192664
The word 'gay' is liable to cause misunderstandings. Modern people think of sexual desires as attached to fixed identities, and tend to think of opposite-sex and same-sex desires and behaviours as somehow mutually exclusive. And so when they read about the sexual practices of ancient societies, they think "why were there so many gay men running about?" Because in our society homosexual behaviours are more or less restricted to a small minority of identifiably "gay" men who spurn sex with women. The first poster I quoted demonstrates this confusion when he asks how Athens could reproduce itself if everyone was gay. But this is not how people behaved sexually in the ancient world. In Athens, and, it seems, in several other Greek cities (though we have much less primary evidence to go off), male citizens would conventionally only get married at 30 years of age (to girls who were about 14 lol). Before that marrying age, it was conventional for them to have relationships with other males: these relationships were mainly between teenagers and young men in their 20s (though not exclusively it seems: since Socrates, who is quite old and also married, openly pursues Alcibiades, and there are several age-equal pairings described in the literature). The idea of homosexuality as tied to specific life-stages is not exclusive to ancient Greece, I think Freud talks about it. One theory about homosexuals in the early psychiatric literature was that they were stuck in a state of stunted psychological growth: they hadn't moved past the adolescent stage of natural homoeroticism; had failed to grow into adult opposite-sex attraction. Whether or not that's true is beside the point, it's demonstrative of the existence of the idea that homosexuality is normatively attached to specific life stages. I believe there are similar ideas in Japan.

That's not to say ancient people were unaware that people had sexual preferences. Aristophanes in the Symposium describes people who are only motivated to marry women out of convention, but would prefer, if they could, to stay with male partners. And people like Ovid can say that they *prefer* women over boys, or Plutarch the opposite. But this preference doesn't exclude the possibility of having sex with the less desired object, as with modern sexual identities. It's anachronistic to point to such and such an ancient figure having sex with females to prove that they "weren't gay", or vice versa. They simply wouldn't recognise this terminology and what it represents. We tend to think that a person can only throw themselves wholeheartedly into relationships with one sex. If a man who's had sex with ten women has sex with a man, we assume that the "gayness" overrides his heterosexuality somehow, that it's more dominant, that the heterosexual behaviour is a sham. But for ancient people, the force and authenticity of Zeus' heterosexual lusts are not delegitimised by his homosexual lusts, and vice versa.

The assumption that most men are strictly heterosexual by default seems restricted to societies, like ours, where one's masculinity or effeminacy is determined by what one is attracted to, rather than by other criteria, like the position one takes in sex acts. Whereas in antiquity or the medieval Middle East, attraction to young men seems extremely common and is taken for granted. It seems that in societies where having homosexual desires implies nothing about one's masculinity, there is much more open, casual homoeroticism. It is not a distinct identity either, because it is not strongly distinguished from normal male sexuality.

>>17879449
Start with the Greeks

The Symposium by Plato

They took this away from you.

>>17558729
Seethe. Achilles panted for Patroclus thighs.

>>17551970
Semitepilled more like

>>17550177
>or pretend it is in any way equivalent to the union of men and women.
Yea, it's better

>>17486715
Anon, you must undo the Jewish programming that has infected your brain. It is okay to love males.

>>17454555
>tfw gay people are actually a danger to society
Start with the GReeks.

>>17432574
>talking to women
Women?

>>17407981
>When did he start his pederasty relationship with Plato?
I don't think there's any indication of them having a relationship.
>How did it influence their ideas?
They talk about love a lot, and pederastic relationships are often used as a motif in discussions about virtue, restraint etc. Both Xenophon and Plato, students of Socrates, appear to formulate anti-pederastic views in their mature philosophy, despite relatively neutral or sympathetic depictions of it in their earlier careers.
>>17408027
It should be noted that while the Symposium ends with a strong case for loving the soul over the body (which leads later to the harsher judgement expressed in the Laws), it does not repudiate physical desire altogether. In Pausanias' speech disapproval is voiced against both cities where pederasty is practiced without any restraint whatsoever and cities which outlaw pederasty completely. When someone speaks disapprovingly of lusting after women, they are not saying that all sexual relations with a beloved woman are bad. The participants of the Symposium are talking in praise of Eros, after all.

>>17390894
>morality is fully within our grasp considering it is nurtured within ourselves and passed on to us by tradition, familial ties and sets of objective values we must uphold if we do not wish to corrupt our very souls.
the morals passed on by tradition differ radically from one another.

>>17385286
Of coursh

>>17255592
Our ancestors recognised that love between men is essential to fostering virtue and a strong army capable of defending the city state.

>>17249585
Start with the Greeks

>>17145362
>any books about how experiencing the trad romance is impossible now?
yep. the trad romance is impossible. these days. pic related. get a good look. youre not gonna see it again.

>>17025167
>Instead, we should rediscover the Ancient Greeks and return to a conception of society according to natural law.
Agreed!

>Happy the man who’s got boys for loving and single-foot horses, hunting dogs and friends in foreign lands. The man who doesn’t love boys and single-foot horses and dogs, his heart will never know pleasure.
—Theognis, poem c. 500 BC

>Every dumb animal only screws. But we reasoning men have this over other animals: We have invented butt-fucking. But those who conquer women, they have nothing over dumb animals.
—Straton of Sardis, poem c. 120 AD

>>16971648
>homosexuality

Rather than being inimical to liberty, it is a prerequisite for it. Hoppe was proactively refuted by Pausanias 2000 years ago:
>In Ionia and other places, and generally in countries which are subject to the barbarians, the custom is held to be dishonourable; loves of youths share the evil repute in which philosophy and gymnastics are held because they are inimical to tyranny; for the interests of rulers require that their subjects should be poor in spirit and that there should be no strong bond of friendship or society among them, which love, above all other motives, is likely to inspire, as our Athenian tyrants-learned by experience; for the love of Aristogeiton and the constancy of Harmodius had strength which undid their power. And, therefore, the ill-repute into which these attachments have fallen is to be ascribed to the evil condition of those who make them to be ill-reputed; that is to say, to the self-seeking of the governors and the cowardice of the governed; on the other hand, the indiscriminate honour which is given to them in some countries is attributable to the laziness of those who hold this opinion of them. In our own country a far better principle prevails, but, as I was saying, the explanation of it is rather perplexing. For, observe that open loves are held to be more honourable than secret ones, and that the love of the noblest and highest, even if their persons are less beautiful than others, is especially honourable

>>16541769
pic related: two libtards

Seethe.