/lit/ - Literature

>>23233083
VGH... faggot männerbund...

Start with the Greeks.

>>22001785
>Even among the vast majority of primitive tribes there are innate concepts of pedophilia and homosexuality being wrong and punishable
source: ...

>>21975986
>>21975994
You are stupid anon. Homosexuality was already widely accepted during the Archaic era that preceded Classical Greece. Theognis, Anacreon, Ibycus etc. all wrote love poetry to boys. The city founders and lawgivers of Athens, Thebes, Crete, etc. approved of it and enshrined it in their laws. Aeschylus and Sophocles (both Greek traditionalists from an earlier era) depicted homosexuality uncritically and approvingly. Plato is unusual in ancient Greek society precisely in that he is one of the first to turn *against* pederasty. That is what makes him less traditional. All the other characters in the Symposium *approve* of sexual intercourse in homosexual relationships, except Socrates. If anything, an increase in the disapproval of homosexuality was associated with the decline of Greek society.

>>21976015
>There's literally no mention of them being lovers until Plutarch 400 years after they would've existed.
You have not read that much. Xenophon refers to them as such in his Symposium.

Patriarchal societies: women devalued and used to pump out babies, military pederasty practiced and idealised
Equal societies: homosexuality stigmatised
Matriarchal societies: female hypergamy, effeminate homosexuality + trannsexuality promoted

>>21962344
>Gays still affect the culture even if they aren't demanding their own bathrooms...they still demand we accept them as normal.
and so ;)?

>>21893073
Start with the Greeks...

>>21891378
VGH...

>>21677515
That's why Diotima in Plato says love between men and women produces babies, but love between two men produces wisdom

RETURN TO TRΛDITION

>>20535061
>>20535072
>>20535114
>>20538382
>I shall speak first about Homer, whom we rank among the oldest and wisest of the poets. He mentions Patroklos and Achilles in many places, but he keeps their erotic love hidden and the proper name of their friendship, thinking that the exceptional extent of their affection made things clear to the educated members of his audience.
Aeschines, Against Timarchos 142-3

>Aeschylus talks nonsense in claiming that Achilles was in love with Patroclus (rather than the other way around), for Achilles was more beautiful than not only Patroclus but all the other heroes as well; and besides, he was unbearded, and thirdly, far younger than Patroclus, as Homer says. Well, anyhow, though the gods really hold in very high esteem that virtue which concerns love, they wonder, admire, band confer benefits even more when the beloved has affection for the lover than when the lover has it for the beloved.
Plato, Symposium 179e-180b

>And you did not respect the chaste consecration of the thighs, oh ungrateful that you were for those countless kisses!
Aeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 135

>I honored the intimacy of your thighs by bewailing you
Aeschylus, Myrmidons, Fragment 136

>No, pleasure was the mediator even of their friendship. At any rate, when Achilles was lamenting the death of Patroclus, his unrestrained feelings made him burst out with the truth and say "The converse of our thighs my tears do mourn with duteous piety."
Ps-Lucian, Amores 54

>Love affairs were such an open and everyday matter that the great poet Aeschylus, and Sophocles too, put sexual themes on the stage in their tragedies, Aeschylus showing Achilles’ love for Patroclus.
Athenaeus 13.601

I don't understand why Fascists are against homosexuality? They are not sexual conservatives -- they supported shit like prostitution, polygamy, abortion etc. And they liked modelling their society off ancient Greece and Rome. And they liked Nietzsche and Frederick the Great. So I don't get it.

>>20507162
>> Subvert Greek society, religion, and the youth with your sophistry.
Plato's unhinged criticism of masculine love is one of the most harmful developments in Western philosophy..

>>20495955
This is stupid. Just because pre-Christian ancient cultures had different sexual ethics to Christianity doesn't not mean they were sexual libertines. The Greeks countenanced homosexuality, yes, but it was highly regulated and managed by all kinds of social norms and ideals. The lovers were expected to be virtuous. They were not hedonists. Their sexual conduct was almost Victorian in its strictness. Athens was not some sexual free-for-all. The philosophies of love derived from these homosexual milieus heavily inspired Christian thought on the matter -- the influence of the Symposium on Christian (and especially Catholic) ideas about eros and agape cannot be underestimated.

>>20221100
>I wonder WHO could be behind the greeks are gay narrative
the greeks..

>[The Persians'] luxurious practices are of all kinds, and all borrowed: the Greeks taught them pederasty.
Herodotus 1.135

>In most of the Greek cities the laws do not oppose men’s desire for boys.
Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaemonians 2.14

>The lawgiver gave much thought to the benefits of moderation in eating and also to the isolation of women, so that they not have many children. To this end he devised intercourse with males.
Aristotle, Politics 2.10, 1272a22–26

>The same lawgiver [Solon] said: ‘The slave is not to be the lover of a free boy, nor to pursue him, or else he is to receive fifty lashes with the public whip.’ But he did not prevent the free man from being a lover, from associating with or pursuing a boy, nor did he think that this brought harm to the boy, but saw it as a testimony to his self-control."
Aeschines, Against Timarchos 138-9

>Love affairs were such an open and everyday matter that the great poet Aeschylus, and Sophocles too, put sexual themes on the stage in their tragedies, Aeschylus showing Achilles’ love for Patroclus. . . . And many men, overall, prefer love with boys to love with females. In the very cities of Greece that have the best laws by comparison with others, this is the mode of behavior that is fashionable.
Athenaeus 13.601

>>20128997
Start with the Greeks

>>20111775
There is only one way for men to reclaim their freedom from the feminine world..

>>20102394
Start with the Greeks

>>19993857
Start with the Greeks

>>19886186
Plato Symposium

>>19886402
Plato Symposium

Intercrural intercourse was the socially acceptable ideal, however anal sex was probably more common than what was considered propitious. Kenneth Dover writes:
>Homosexual anal copulation, by contrast with the intercrural mode, is portrayed by vase-painters only when it involves people of the same age-group, comasts or satyrs. It is commonly believed at the present time to be the characteristic mode of homosexual consummation; in Greek comedy it is assumed, save in Birds 706, to be the only mode; and when Hellenistic poetry makes a sufficiently unambiguous reference to what actually happens on the bodily plane, we encounter only anal, never intercrural, copulation. So Dioskorides 7 recommends a friend to 'delight in the rosy bum' of his wife when she is pregnant, 'treating her as male Aphrodite', and Rhianos 1 rapturously apostrophises the 'glorious bum' of a boy, so beautiful that even old men itch for it. Meleagros 90 is addressed to a boy whose beauty has faded with maturity; a 'hairy pelt' now 'declares war on those who mount from behind', and Meleagros 94, expressing love for a woman, abjures his former eromenoi and 'the squeeze of a hairy arse'. Homosexual fellation seems, so far as vase-painting is concerned, peculiar to satyrs, though it appears from Polybiosxii 13 that at the end of the fourth century Demokhares, a prominent figure in Athenian politics, was accused by a comic poet of being hetairekos with the upper parts of his body, so that he was not a fit person to blow the sacred flame'. Aiskhines ii 88 imputes to Demosthenes 'bodily impurity - even of the organs of speech', and Krates of Thebes 1 is a learned joke about activity of this type. Masturbation of one male by another, envisaged by Meleagros 77, a fantasy in which eight eromenoi are simultaneously engaged with one erastes, is suggested - but not very clearly - by a black-figure fragment, B702.
Greek Homosexuality p. 99

He writes in his postscript to the 1989 edition:
>The fact that comedy assumes anal penetration to be the normal mode of homosexual intercourse suggests that the vase-painters' overwhelming preference for the intercrural mode is highly conventional, and I would not resist such a suggestion.
Greek Homosexuality p. 204

Visually, intercrural sex allows the eromenos more dignity:
>An interesting contrast between heterosexual intercourse and the intercrural activity ascribed to erastes and eromenos by the vase-painters suggests itself. The woman is almost invariably in a 'subordinate' position, the man 'dominant'; the woman bent over or lying back or supported, the man upright or on top. In intercrural copulation, on the other hand, the eromenos stands bolt upright, and it is the erastes who bows his head and shoulders. The contrast exists also in respect of what one might call 'general penetrability'; against the absence of scenes of human homosexual fellation
Greek Homosexuality p. 101

>>19601176
It was more homo in ancient Greece than it is today, anon

>47% of modern Greeks say homosexuality should not be accepted by society (Pew, 2019)
I always find it funny how the "traditionalist" crowd insists that instead of following their own traditions, they should be following semitic traditions instead.

The best part? This will all be repeated sooner or later. Western Europe and USA will become Islamic and in 500 years "traditionalists" will screech about how Islam is European and and following Islamic traditions is the same as embracing the traditions of your ancestors.

Is there some philosophy i can read on to explain this, or is it just as stupid as it seems? Do traditionalist philosophers consider the cutoff point to be something like 150 years or something?