/lit/ - Literature

>>22080530
>likes of odyssey and aeneid

Don't you mean the Finnish national epic, Kalevala.

Tolkien was not influenced by Odyssey, Aeneid or Norse Eddas, even though Reddit incorrectly thinks so.

However, see pic related. We have actual quotes of Tolkien himself where he explicility states that The Kalevala inspired him. No other world myths come even close, not even the Bible.

>[The Kalevala was] “the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Tolkien Letters, 87)

>Tolkien wrote that The Story of Kullervo was ‘the germ of my attempt to write legends of my own’, and was ‘a major matter in the legends of the First Age’; his Kullervo was the ancestor of Túrin Turambar, tragic incestuous hero of The Silmarillion. In addition to being a powerful story in its own right, The Story of Kullervo – published here for the first time with the author’s drafts, notes and lecture-essays on its source-work, The Kalevala, is a foundation stone in the structure of Tolkien’s invented world.

Verlyn Flieger, who wrote that above quotation, is the Professor in the Department of English at the University of Maryland.

Why does /lit/ and Reddit say that the influence of Kalevala was rather minor, when Tolkien himself, university professors and academia say contrary things and tell us that the Finnish myths and national epics of Finland formed the very backbone of Tolkien's mythological world?

Why people say that Tolkien was inspired by other myths/stories like Odyssey, Aenid etc. when Tolkien himself repeats again and again that The Kalevala of the Finns was his main and fundamental influence and even the topic of numerous academic studies?

Researching J.R.R. Tolkien:
How Kalevala influenced his legendarium
http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/nbnfioulu-201804201498.pdf

https://jyx.jyu.fi/bitstream/handle/123456789/41456/URN-NBN-fi-jyu-201305151681.pdf;sequ
J.R.R. Tolkien’s Land of Heroes–
Fëanor, a tragic hero of Middle-Earth in
comparison to Seppo Ilmarinen from the Kalevala

University of Jyväskylä
Department of Languages
English

What J.R.R. Tolkien Really Did with the Sampo?
Jonathan B. Himes
https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1342&context=mythlore

+50 other numerous academic studies.

Why no one posts here actual quotes of Tolkien where he explicility states that The Kalevala inspired him?

>[The Kalevala was] “the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Tolkien Letters, 87)

>Tolkien wrote that The Story of Kullervo was ‘the germ of my attempt to write legends of my own’, and was ‘a major matter in the legends of the First Age’; his Kullervo was the ancestor of Túrin Turambar, tragic incestuous hero of The Silmarillion. In addition to being a powerful story in its own right, The Story of Kullervo – published here for the first time with the author’s drafts, notes and lecture-essays on its source-work, The Kalevala, is a foundation stone in the structure of Tolkien’s invented world.

Verlyn Flieger, who wrote that above quotation, is the Professor in the Department of English at the University of Maryland.

Why does /lit/ say that the influence of Kalevala was rather minor, when university professors and academia say contrary things and tell us that the Finnish myths and national epics of Finland formed the very backbone of Tolkien's mythological world?

Why people say that Tolkien was inspired by other myths/stories when Tolkien himself repeats again and again that The Kalevala of the Finns was his main and fundamental influence and even the topic of numerous academic studies

Researching J.R.R. Tolkien:
How Kalevala influenced his legendarium
http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/nbnfioulu-201804201498.pdf

https://jyx.jyu.fi/bitstream/handle/123456789/41456/URN-NBN-fi-jyu-201305151681.pdf;sequ
J.R.R. Tolkien’s Land of Heroes–
Fëanor, a tragic hero of Middle-Earth in
comparison to Seppo Ilmarinen from the Kalevala

University of Jyväskylä
Department of Languages
English

What J.R.R. Tolkien Really Did with the Sampo?
Jonathan B. Himes
https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1342&context=mythlore

+50 other numerous academic studies.

>>21212612
>>21212606
>>21212298

Tolkien was a finnophile/fennomaniac, pic related.

Even the whole Silmarillion reads like a total copy paste of the Kalevala. It was not only linguistical aesthetics he stole from the Finns.

>[The Kalevala was] “the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Tolkien Letters, 87)

Like there was three Silmarils, the Kalevala's Sampo has/had three qualities. Both are stolen/claimed by the forces of North. Melkor in Silmarillion, Louhi in Kalevala.

Both are stolen back by Enchantment. Luthién sings Melkor and whole Angband to sleep with her song and Beren steals the Silmarils back: In Kalevala Väinämöinen sings the song of enchantment and the whole forces of North fall sleep and the heroes steal the Sampo back

Both the Silmarils are lost/scattered around the world and thrown into sea, just like the North awakes and pursue ensues (just like in Silmarillion), Sampo is scattered to the sea/around the world, so in the end nobody possesses them

The magical Sampo (as the Silmarils were forged by great craftsman Fëanor, so was the Sampo forged by great craftsman and blacksmith Ilmarinen of which the word "Ilmen" of Arda derives from)

Silmarillion, more than anything, is 90% Finnish influence and basically the retelling of the heroic deeds of the Kalevala heroes in high fantasy setting

This is not even up for a debate, but academically recognized, historical fact.
Numerous academic treatises have also been written how Silmarillion is basically just retelling of the forging of Sampo.

This is not even up for debate my friend. You are being intellectually, and nationalistically, dishonest if you disagree with the above considerations. I am sorry kid.

Bachelor’s Seminar and Thesis
English Philology

Researching J.R.R. Tolkien:
How Kalevala influenced his legendarium
http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/nbnfioulu-201804201498.pdf

https://jyx.jyu.fi/bitstream/handle/123456789/41456/URN-NBN-fi-jyu-201305151681.pdf;sequ
J.R.R. Tolkien’s Land of Heroes–
Fëanor, a tragic hero of Middle-Earth in
comparison to Seppo Ilmarinen from the Kalevala

University of Jyväskylä
Department of Languages
English

What J.R.R. Tolkien Really Did with the Sampo?
Jonathan B. Himes
https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1342&context=mythlore

+50 other numerous academic studies.

How much Tolkien exactly did steal from the Finns and the Kalevala?

>Tolkien wrote that The Story of Kullervo was ‘the germ of my attempt to write legends of my own’, and was ‘a major matter in the legends of the First Age’; his Kullervo was the ancestor of Túrin Turambar, tragic incestuous hero of The Silmarillion. In addition to being a powerful story in its own right, The Story of Kullervo – published here for the first time with the author’s drafts, notes and lecture-essays on its source-work, The Kalevala, is a foundation stone in the structure of Tolkien’s invented world.

Verlyn Flieger, who wrote that above quotation, is the Professor in the Department of English at the University of Maryland.

Why does /lit/ say that the influence of Kalevala was rather minor, when university professors and academia say contrary things and tell us that the Finnish myths and national epics of Finland formed the very backbone of Tolkien's mythological world?

I see lots of people underestimating the Finnish influence here and most of the academics who have studied Tolkien for +50 years agree with the unobvious and major Finnish influence that penetrates the works of Tolkien.

Who is right? Some neckbeards on 4chan or actual professors who study linguistics, mythology and literature?

>>18367411
It's funny how you underestimate Finnish influence yet again, even though 80% of Tolkien is Kalevala and Finnish myths (according to exper scholar research, your opinion, quite frankly, does not matter )

Whole Silmarillion reads like a total copy paste of the Kalevala. You think it was only linguistical aesthetics he borrowed? Think again.

>[The Kalevala was] “the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Tolkien Letters, 87)

Like there was three Silmarils, the Kalevala's Sampo has/had three qualities. Both are stolen/claimed by the forces of North. Melkor in Silmarillion, Louhi in Kalevala.

Both are stolen back by Enchantment. Luthién sings Melkor and whole Angband to sleep with her song and Beren steals the Silmarils back: In Kalevala Väinämöinen sings the song of enchantment and the whole forces of North fall sleep and the heroes steal the Sampo back

Both the Silmarils are lost/scattered around the world and thrown into sea, just like the North awakes and pursue ensues (just like in Silmarillion), Sampo is scattered to the sea/around the world, so in the end nobody possesses them

The magical Sampo (as the Silmarils were forged by great craftsman Fëanor, so was the Sampo forged by great craftsman and blacksmith Ilmarinen of which the word "Ilmen" of Arda derives from)

Silmarillion, more than anything, is 90% Finnish influence and basically the retelling of the heroic deeds of the Kalevala heroes in high fantasy setting

This is not even up for a debate, but academically recognized, historical fact.
Numerous academic treatises have also been written how Silmarillion is basically just retelling of the forging of Sampo.

This is not even up for debate my friend. You are being intellectually, and nationalistically, dishonest if you disagree with the above considerations. I am sorry kid.

Bachelor’s Seminar and Thesis
English Philology

Researching J.R.R. Tolkien:
How Kalevala influenced his legendarium
http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/nbnfioulu-201804201498.pdf

https://jyx.jyu.fi/bitstream/handle/123456789/41456/URN-NBN-fi-jyu-201305151681.pdf;sequ
J.R.R. Tolkien’s Land of Heroes–
Fëanor, a tragic hero of Middle-Earth in
comparison to Seppo Ilmarinen from the Kalevala

University of Jyväskylä
Department of Languages
English

What J.R.R. Tolkien Really Did with the Sampo?
Jonathan B. Himes
https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1342&context=mythlore

+50 other numerous academic studies.

Stay ignorant.

Why did Tolkien steal so much from the Finns and from the Great Finnish nation cultural heritage?

Whole Silmarillion reads like a total copy paste of the Kalevala. You think it was only linguistical aesthetics he borrowed? Think again.

>[The Kalevala was] “the original germ of the Silmarillion” (Tolkien Letters, 87)

Like there was three Silmarils, the Kalevala's Sampo has/had three qualities. Both are stolen/claimed by the forces of North. Melkor in Silmarillion, Louhi in Kalevala.

Both are stolen back by Enchantment. Luthién sings Melkor and whole Angband to sleep with her song and Beren steals the Silmarils back: In Kalevala Väinämöinen sings the song of enchantment and the whole forces of North fall sleep and the heroes steal the Sampo back

Both the Silmarils are lost/scattered around the world and thrown into sea, just like the North awakes and pursue ensues (just like in Silmarillion), Sampo is scattered to the sea/around the world, so in the end nobody possesses them

The magical Sampo (as the Silmarils were forged by great craftsman Fëanor, so was the Sampo forged by great craftsman and blacksmith Ilmarinen of which the word "Ilmen" of Arda derives from)

Silmarillion, more than anything, is 90% Finnish influence and basically the retelling of the heroic deeds of the Kalevala heroes in high fantasy setting

This is not even up for a debate, but academically recognized, historical fact.
Numerous academic treatises have also been written how Silmarillion is basically just retelling of the forging of Sampo:

http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/nbnfioulu-201804201498.pdf

This sad little man had little to none originality in his Silmarillion (a work which he never wanted to publish because of this fact, it was only published after his death by his son)

>>15746393
Aren't you underestimating Finnish influence with statements like that?

Why Tolkien never bothered to learn Norse, or German, but only Finnish? (Apart from Latin, of course)

How much Tolkien exactly did steal from the Finns and the Kalevala?

>Tolkien wrote that The Story of Kullervo was ‘the germ of my attempt to write legends of my own’, and was ‘a major matter in the legends of the First Age’; his Kullervo was the ancestor of Túrin Turambar, tragic incestuous hero of The Silmarillion. In addition to being a powerful story in its own right, The Story of Kullervo – published here for the first time with the author’s drafts, notes and lecture-essays on its source-work, The Kalevala, is a foundation stone in the structure of Tolkien’s invented world.

Verlyn Flieger, who wrote that above quotation, is the Professor in the Department of English at the University of Maryland.

Why does /lit/ say that the influence of Kalevala was rather minor, when university professors and academia say contrary things and tell us that the Finnish myths and national epics of Finland formed the very backbone of Tolkien's mythological world?

I see lots of people underestimating the Finnish influence here and most of the academics who have studied Tolkien for +50 years agree with the unobvious and major Finnish influence that penetrates the works of Tolkien. Who is right?

Tolkien stole 90% of his mythos and mythology from Kalevala. You must be a fucking retard ifyou think it was "the first fantastic" world when it was basically just a copy of the Kalevala.

Pic related. Stay retarded kid.

>>15422688
This is academically recognized fact that he based all of his languages either directly or indirectly on Finnish language

Pic related tell of his obsession that lasted for lifetime

Didn't Tolkien steal from the Finns?

Why did Tolkien steal from the Finns?

The first book J.R.R Tolkien ever wrote was the story of Kullervo, a character from the Finnish national epic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Kullervo
>The Story of Kullervo is a prose version of the Kullervo cycle in the Karelian and Finnish epic poem Kalevala, written by J. R. R. Tolkien when he was an undergraduate at Exeter College, Oxford, from 1914 to 1915.

Later he wrote in his letters:
>Tolkien wrote in his letters "[The Kalevala was]the original germ of Silmarillion” (Letters, 87
>I feel ashamed how little originality Middle-Earth contains, and how much of it's content is borrowed from the Kalevala (Letters, 120)

Even the language of the elves is just a dialect of Finnish.

Why did he steal from the Finns?

He stole from the Finns though.

People always think he had some genius imagination, while in reality Silmarillion, for example, is just basically a retelling of Kalevala with dwarves and virgin elves.

There has been even acadeic studies written on how much Tolkien stole from the Finns. Sad little man.

That's why he never wanted Silmarillion to be published himself (his son published it after his death) because he mentions that he felt ashamed how much he had stolen from the Finnish nation and their national epic.

Continue to enjoy tolkien and his comfy stories, but do not forget from where they originate (Finland)

*steal from the Finns*

Why did Tolkien steal from the Finns?

The question still remains. According to some biographers, Tolkien himself never wanted Silmarillion to be published and kept it in his drawer because he felt quite ashamed how little originality it had, and how much from The Kalevala the plot and mythos of Silmarillion had borrowed.

It was his son, after Tolkien's death, who decided to publish The Silmarillion. In none of the foreword of the editions no credit is given to Finns or the Finnish nation and Kalevala is not mentioned.

Why did Tolkien steal from the Finns?

The question still remains. According to some biographers, Tolkien himself never wanted Silmarillion to be published and kept it in his drawer because he felt quite ashamed how little originality it had, and how much from The Kalevala the plot and mythos of Silmarillion had borrowed.

It was only his son, after his death, that the Silmarillion saw light of day and the Finns got no credit even in the foreword of the editions.

Didn't he steal from the Finns though? He was not so original people make him to be.

I mean his first book was this:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24400501-the-story-of-kullervo

It is just translation of the Kullervo rune from Kalevala. Even Silmarillion is basically just retelling of the forging of Sampo, or forging of Silmarils.

>>14029871
Tolkien, and his estate, stole from the Finns.

Remember, Tolkien himself did not want to see Silmarillion published, because he understood that it was nothing more than a retelling of The Kalevala.

It was Christopher who published it. Tolkien did not want it to see it published.

http://jultika.oulu.fi/files/nbnfioulu-201804201498.pdf

Why did Tolkien steal from the Finns?

His own imagination was not perhaps enough? Ran out of ideas?

Why did Tolkien steal from the Finns?

Why did Tolkien steal from the Finns?

Why did he steal from the Finns? Lacked the imagination?