/lit/ - Literature

>>4387111
>It's how to live life: for dummies.

But that's what men need, because they ARE dummies.

>Except it's still full of iron-age garbage about killing witches.

I find it easy to forgive people for burning witches. If I ever got my hand on a witch burning it would definitely cross my mind.

>You can't reconcile these beliefs with modern society.

I agree with you completely. Modern Society has been built on the French Revolution, with its Freemasonry motto "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity". Did you know that during the revolution they dressed up a woman as the "goddess of Reason" and worshipped her in a ritualistic manner? That's what Modern Society amounts to - gruesome paganism, idolatry.

>THEY CONFLICT AT A CORE LEVEL. CHRISTIANS LITERALLY HAVE TO VIOLATE THEIR OWN LAWS AND DOCTRINE DAILY TO SURVIVE.

They don't have to, they just do because they are sinners.

>>4387036
>O taste, and see that the Lord is sweet: blessed is the man that hopeth in him.

If you had tasted of God you would know that he tastes sweet. Seeing as it's a bad taste you have in your mouth, and can only presume that Satan has placed himself in your mouth and has deceived you into thinking that he is God.

>>4387024
>who thinks God is better than people.

Of course I think God is better than people. That's extremely obvious. If God was not better than people He would not be called God.

> The very idea of your God leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

That's because you don't have an idea of my God at all, because it's impossible for Him to leave a bad taste in your mouth. Satan is taking away your understanding.

---

1 And that [same] day Jesus went out from the house and sat down by the sea.

2 And great crowds were gathered together to him, so that going on board ship himself he sat down, and the whole crowd stood on the shore.

3 And he spoke to them many things in parables, saying, Behold, the sower went out to sow:

4 and as he sowed, some [grains] fell along the way, and the birds came and devoured them;

5 and others fell upon the rocky places where they had not much earth, and immediately they sprang up out of [the ground] because of not having [any] depth of earth,

6 but when the sun rose they were burned up, and because of not having [any] root were dried up;

7 and others fell upon the thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them;

8 and others fell upon the good ground, and produced fruit, one a hundred, one sixty, and one thirty.

. . .

19 From every one who hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand [it], the wicked one comes and catches away what was sown in his heart: this is he that is sown by the wayside.

20 But he that is sown on the rocky places—this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy,

21 but has no root in himself, but is for a time only; and when tribulation or persecution happens on account of the word, he is immediately offended.

22 And he that is sown among the thorns—this is he who hears the word, and the anxious care of this life, and the deceit of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

23 But he that is sown upon the good ground—this is he who hears and understands the word, who bears fruit also, and produces, one a hundred, one sixty, and one thirty.

You are the one that has been sown by the wayside.

>>4387011
I'm not saying that I have comprehended it. Mystery is a part of the religion.

>>4386995
>1. Hell exists, which is completely unacceptable. No single individual is worthy of the 'gnashing of teeth in a fire for eternity' described in the bible.

I used to think this too. The reason that you think this, and that I used to think it, is because you do not know the extent of man's evil. You probably think men are decent on the whole, but now and then make blunders like thievery and murder due to their passions. Yeah, that is evil but it is forgivable, and does not warrant eternal hellfire. What does warrant eternal hellfire though, are the people who know exactly what God is and what he stands for, but rebel against Him anyway by doing satanic rituals and worshipping false idols.

>28Verily I say unto you, that all sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and all the injurious speeches [with] which they may speak injuriously; 29but whosoever shall speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness;

The materialist view is quite naive. It doesn't really understand what evil is. It thinks evil is just an accidental effect of people's biology and circumstances that they end up doing the wrong thins sometimes. Evil is much more abominable than that.

>2. An omnipotent deity exists alongside cancer, pre-natal deaths, plague, and birth defects. This is also unacceptable.

Again, if you knew the extent to which man had sinned you'd be infinitely grateful that God has any interest with us at all. That He sent His son to die for our sake is so extraordinarily merciful it defies comprehension.

>3. Some sort of Uberwelt exists, where people worship this God for an eternity, when he has done absolutely nothing to warrant it.

God laid the foundations of the world. He deserves eternal praise. Without Him nothing would be. We have Him to thank that we can live and breath in the first place.

>>4386962
I'm 21, as a reference, so not far off a teenager. Yeah, I understand what you're talking about. I think I'm over that phase though. I didn't come to these convictions lightly. I read Kierkegaard because he talked about despair and I was in despair. I have not so much an infatuation with Kierkegaard and I do not think that he is free from error. but I came to a crossroads where I saw that I had to either be a pagan or a christian, either faith or no faith, either worship the things of the world or worship the creator of it. When ever I went towards paganism I felt an extreme pride, haughtiness, a bitterness against those who had wronged me. When ever I went towards Christianity I felt peaceful, forgiving, and assured of myself. I was going down the road to either becoming a suicide or a really indignant and proud man. The only way I could find it in myself to forgive all the things that I thought had been done wrong to me in life was to believe in Christ. I haven't even had that many wrongs done to me, it's just that my colossal pride would take small wrongs and stretch them to fill the entire Universe.

>>4386966
cont.
> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

God is light, God is love, God is truth, God is spirit - the Bible says all these things explicitly. If you do not believe in God then you do not believe in light, love, truth or spirit. You are a forsaken nihilist staring into the abyss. That's what being an atheist qua atheist means. Most atheists don't really see what's at the BOTTOM of their atheism because they have in their lives small lights that are derived from God, even if they do not recognize where those lights come from. Atheism isn't light, it's darkness, complete and utter darkness. Most people are not total atheists at all, you are only an atheist when you say IN YOUR HEART that there is no God, and as I said above, saying that to your heart is the bitterest thing that can be felt.

>>4386947
God bless you and guide you down the right path.

>>4386936
True, but it's still the case that one would require a higher intellect to give man a telos.
I mean, man can give himself a temporal telos, or at least he can give his flesh a telos (insofar as his intellect is master of his flesh), but man's whole being cannot be given a telos by a part of that being, by the intellect that it has.

>>4386937
>What was the proof to convert you?

>Therefore do not seek to understand in order to believe, but believe that thou mayest understand.
-Augustine.

It's not that I fully understand God and then decided to have faith in Him, that would be preposterous because one cannot fully understand God and if one could then what would be the meaning of the word "faith"?

>18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him are clearly seen since the creation of the world, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; so that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: 25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

It's not that I have direct knowledge of God so much as I see clues everywhere, and mostly in myself through introspection.
I remember, after reading some Kierkegaard and other snippets of Christian philosophy/theology/scripture, sitting on a step in my house and saying to myself, "there is no God". It's the most bitter I've ever felt. Since then I've known what it really means to say that there is no God. Most people haven't any idea what is meant by God when they say that there is no God.

>>4386929
You talk like I've never been an atheist. I have been an atheist until very recently.
I have faced existence, and have found that behind it all is God.

236

According to the doctrine of chance, you ought to put yourself to the trouble of searching for the truth; for if you die without worshipping the True Cause, you are lost.—"But," say you, "if He had wished me to worship Him, He would have left me[Pg 70] signs of His will."—He has done so; but you neglect them. Seek them, therefore; it is well worth it.

Pascal was eloquent.

>>4386906
The end of this discourse.—Now, what harm will befall you in taking this side? You will be faithful, honest, humble, grateful, generous, a sincere friend, truthful. Certainly you will not have those poisonous pleasures, glory and luxury; but will you not have others? I will tell you that you will thereby gain in this life, and that, at each step you take on this road, you will see so great certainty of gain, so much nothingness in what you risk, that you will at last recognise that you have wagered for something certain and infinite, for which you have given nothing.

"Ah! This discourse transports me, charms me," etc.

If this discourse pleases you and seems impressive, know[Pg 69] that it is made by a man who has knelt, both before and after it, in prayer to that Being, infinite and without parts, before whom he lays all he has, for you also to lay before Him all you have for your own good and for His glory, that so strength may be given to lowliness.
234

If we must not act save on a certainty, we ought not to act on religion, for it is not certain. But how many things we do on an uncertainty, sea voyages, battles! I say then we must do nothing at all, for nothing is certain, and that there is more certainty in religion than there is as to whether we may see to-morrow; for it is not certain that we may see to-morrow, and it is certainly possible that we may not see it. We cannot say as much about religion. It is not certain that it is; but who will venture to say that it is certainly possible that it is not? Now when we work for to-morrow, and so on an uncertainty, we act reasonably; for we ought to work for an uncertainty according to the doctrine of chance which was demonstrated above.

Saint Augustine has seen that we work for an uncertainty, on sea, in battle, etc. But he has not seen the doctrine of chance which proves that we should do so. Montaigne has seen that we are shocked at a fool, and that habit is all-powerful; but he has not seen the reason of this effect.

All these persons have seen the effects, but they have not seen the causes. They are, in comparison with those who have discovered the causes, as those who have only eyes are in comparison with those who have intellect. For the effects are perceptible by sense, and the causes are visible only to the intellect. And although these effects are seen by the mind, this mind is, in comparison with the mind which sees the causes, as the bodily senses are in comparison with the intellect.

>>4386903
For it is no use to say it is uncertain if we will gain, and it is certain that we risk, and that the infinite distance between the certainty of what is staked and the uncertainty of what will be gained, equals the finite good which is certainly staked against the uncertain infinite. It is not so, as every player stakes a certainty to gain an uncertainty, and yet he stakes a finite certainty to gain a finite uncertainty, without transgressing against reason. There is not an infinite distance between the certainty staked and the uncertainty of the gain; that is untrue. In truth, there is an infinity between the certainty of gain and the certainty of loss. But the uncertainty of the gain is proportioned to the certainty of the stake according to the[Pg 68] proportion of the chances of gain and loss. Hence it comes that, if there are as many risks on one side as on the other, the course is to play even; and then the certainty of the stake is equal to the uncertainty of the gain, so far is it from fact that there is an infinite distance between them. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain. This is demonstrable; and if men are capable of any truths, this is one.

"I confess it, I admit it. But, still, is there no means of seeing the faces of the cards?"—Yes, Scripture and the rest, etc. "Yes, but I have my hands tied and my mouth closed; I am forced to wager, and am not free. I am not released, and am so made that I cannot believe. What, then, would you have me do?"

True. But at least learn your inability to believe, since reason brings you to this, and yet you cannot believe. Endeavour then to convince yourself, not by increase of proofs of God, but by the abatement of your passions. You would like to attain faith, and do not know the way; you would like to cure yourself of unbelief, and ask the remedy for it. Learn of those who have been bound like you, and who now stake all their possessions. These are people who know the way which you would follow, and who are cured of an ill of which you would be cured. Follow the way by which they began; by acting as if they believed, taking the holy water, having masses said, etc. Even this will naturally make you believe, and deaden your acuteness.—"But this is what I am afraid of."—And why? What have you to lose?

But to show you that this leads you there, it is this which will lessen the passions, which are your stumbling-blocks.

>>4386901
Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake,[Pg 67] your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.—"That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much."—Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. It is all divided; wherever the infinite is and there is not an infinity of chances of loss against that of gain, there is no time to hesitate, you must give all. And thus, when one is forced to play, he must renounce reason to preserve his life, rather than risk it for infinite gain, as likely to happen as the loss of nothingness.

>>4386900
Who then will blame Christians for not being able to give a reason for their belief, since they profess a religion for which they cannot give a reason? They declare, in expounding it to the world, that it is a foolishness, stultitiam;[90] and then you complain that they do not prove it! If they proved it, they would not keep their word; it is in lacking proofs, that they are not lacking in sense. "Yes, but although this excuses those who offer it as such, and takes away from them the blame of putting it forward without reason, it does not excuse those who receive it." Let us then examine this point, and say, "God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.

Do not then reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."

Here you can see how "Pascal's wager" is more beautiful and subtle than how it is presented, so crudely, in places like Wikipedia and Youtube and others on the internet.

233

Infinite—nothing.—Our soul is cast into a body, where it finds number, time, dimension. Thereupon it reasons, and calls this nature, necessity, and can believe nothing else.

Unity joined to infinity adds nothing to it, no more than one foot to an infinite measure. The finite is annihilated in the presence of the infinite, and becomes a pure nothing. So our spirit before God, so our justice before divine justice. There is not so great a disproportion between our justice and that of God, as between unity and infinity.

The justice of God must be vast like His compassion. Now justice to the outcast is less vast, and ought less to offend our feelings than mercy towards the elect.

We know that there is an infinite, and are ignorant of its nature. As we know it to be false that numbers are finite, it is therefore true that there is an infinity in number. But we do not know what it is. It is false that it is even, it is false that it is odd; for the addition of a unit can make no change in its nature. Yet it is a number, and every number is odd or even (this is certainly true of every finite number). So we may well know that there is a God without knowing what He is. Is there not one substantial truth, seeing there are so many things which are not the truth itself?[Pg 66]

We know then the existence and nature of the finite, because we also are finite and have extension. We know the existence of the infinite, and are ignorant of its nature, because it has extension like us, but not limits like us. But we know neither the existence nor the nature of God, because He has neither extension nor limits.

But by faith we know His existence; in glory we shall know His nature. Now, I have already shown that we may well know the existence of a thing, without knowing its nature.

Let us now speak according to natural lights.

If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is. This being so, who will dare to undertake the decision of the question? Not we, who have no affinity to Him.

226
Infidels, who profess to follow reason, ought to be exceedingly strong in reason. What say they then? "Do we not see," say they, "that the brutes live and die like men, and Turks like Christians? They have their ceremonies, their prophets, their doctors, their saints, their monks, like us," etc. (Is this contrary to Scripture? Does it not say all this?)

If you care but little to know the truth, here is enough of it to leave you in repose. But if you desire with all your heart[Pg 64] to know it, it is not enough; look at it in detail. This would be sufficient for a question in philosophy; but not here, where it concerns your all. And yet, after a trifling reflection of this kind, we go to amuse ourselves, etc. Let us inquire of this same religion whether it does not give a reason for this obscurity; perhaps it will teach it to us.

227

Order by dialogues.—What ought I to do? I see only darkness everywhere. Shall I believe I am nothing? Shall I believe I am God?

"All things change and succeed each other." You are mistaken; there is ...

228

Objection of atheists: "But we have no light."

229

This is what I see and what troubles me. I look on all sides, and I see only darkness everywhere. Nature presents to me nothing which is not matter of doubt and concern. If I saw nothing there which revealed a Divinity, I would come to a negative conclusion; if I saw everywhere the signs of a Creator, I would remain peacefully in faith. But, seeing too much to deny and too little to be sure, I am in a state to be pitied; wherefore I have a hundred time wished that if a God maintains nature, she should testify to Him unequivocally, and that, if the signs she gives are deceptive, she should suppress them altogether; that she should say everything or nothing, that I might see which cause I ought to follow. Whereas in my present state, ignorant of what I am or of what I ought to do, I know neither my condition nor my duty. My heart inclines wholly to know where is the true good, in order to follow it; nothing would be too dear to me for eternity.

I envy those whom I see living in the faith with such carelessness, and who make such a bad use of a gift of which it seems to me I would make such a different use.

230

It is incomprehensible that God should exist, and it is incomprehensible that He should not exist; that the soul should be joined to the body, and that we should have no soul; that the[Pg 65] world should be created, and that it should not be created, etc.; that original sin should be, and that it should not be.

---
Pascal might be the best place to start for a true agnostic.

>>4386871
cont. I totally sympathize with you that there are some who preach ignorance and bigotry in the name of God. I detest it as much as you do, if not more, as I see it as an abomination offensive to God. You can't let the imperfections of the people against the perfection of their creed. If a man went out and killed people in the name of natural selection and survival of the fittest it would not mean that Darwin's Origin of Species is a complete lie/fabrication (although it does say something about Herbert Spencer).
"By their fruits you will know them". If somebody is ignorant and practices evil then clearly he is not of God. The Bible says this (1 John, James). The Bible also says that people are fallen from God and are liable to sin. Do not condemn the religion because there are hypocrites who claim to be of it. First of all, look at the lives of the saints and martyrs. Look at the BEST examples, not the worst. You would expect me to go to the best of the atheists, like Epicurus. And so I would expect you to go to the best of the christians, like Augustine.

>Atheism shows strength of mind, but only to a certain degree.
- Pascal. Francis Bacon (the guy who pretty much founded modern science) said the same thing

>>4386861
Don't let your arrogance and feelings of superiority over the ignorant and supertitious and bigoted make you ignorant, superstitious and bigoted yourself. The reason why they speak in a way that is offensive is because they don't have much wisdom and aren't God fearing enough, if they were really God fearing they'd be a lot more careful about what they said because they'd know they would have to rend an account of it to God in the end.

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

You have no excuse. You can't just say, "these people look foul to me therefore God must be foul", or, "the people of this church are foul therefore all of Christianity is foul from beginning to end". That's like a religious person seeing your typical fedora stereotype and concluding that all atheists are completely unreasonable and driven by resentment. Not all atheists are completely rotten, even if atheism itself is completely rotten. Not all the religious are holy, even if the religion itself is holy.

>>4386857
cont. if "divine experiences" weren't common religion would not be as popular and widespread as it is and has been throughout. We have a dearth of those experiences in modern technological society because it is so overbearingly human all too human, without even a glance heavenwards to God.

>>4386853
> you can't repeat divine experiences.

Pray, listen to Palestrina, attend a Latin Mass.

Are you an American, btw? It's seems to be an unfortunate side-effect of being an American atheist that you are aggravated with believers because you are surrounded by them and they are unlike you. In Europe nonbelief is so common that if you are a nonbeliever you don't need to get irate with believers, because they aren't a threat to you demographically. Basically, what I'm accusing you of is being emotional, and a lot of atheists on the internet are primarily emotional and rely on scanty proofs/arguments to support their case (hence, the fedora meme).

>>4386844
But like D&E said, he was using it improperly in the first place, and so I only continued his usage of it.
"Appeal to authority" is a fallacy that I did not fall into in the first place.

>>4386843
>because I cant at least give a quick overview about Bohr's works, or of Heisenberg or Einstein for that matter.

Yeah, and that's exactly what I've done with Aquinas. So is it improper for me to refer back to Aquinas when I've reached the limits of my understanding?

>I dont claim that I follow Quantum Mechanics with the absolute certainty that it is the only right thing to do in life. So yeah, there is a bit of a difference here.

Yeah, and I don't claim to have full knowledge of theology, but faith and religion require only basic theology to function, and more complete theology supports the faith and religion and the understanding of it. It's like, you don't need to have full knowledge of Newton's Principia to recreate the experiment where light is refracted through a prism to create a rainbow / separation of wavelengths/colours, and I don't need to have full knowledge of the Summa in order to pray or attend a church.