/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

I am left with the belief that Touhou has peaked in its creativity. ZUN has reached the point just beyond fulfillment with his creation. As we post here on /jp/, wasting the days way, lingering in the afterglow of his previous releases, I look toward the future.

Just where have we not gone with Touhou? I find it difficult to conceive of a gimic that ZUN hasn't tried, yet. And I don't mean character gimics. Just believable, untried incidents. Ones that can be built out of whole cloth, instead of relying on old characters to provide the bulk of the experience. In my mind, the recent games have been spartan. They lack the impression of earlier story lines.

What say you?

[Anonymous No.]

At least make this thread tomorrow when we've actually confirmed that DDC and HM are shit as everybody thinks they're going to be.

Right now it just seems sad.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>10935852
Alternatively:

Why don't we see more of Curiosities of Lotus Asia? I find it to be the best part of the Touhou story experience.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>10935854
>Right now it just seems sad.

At this point, I fail to see the difference. Such is my impression of Touhou's fate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10935863
I don't see why anybody should give a shit about your impression of two games you haven't even played yet.

[Anonymous No.]

I've been hearing the same thing since 2008, about the time I started into Touhou fandom.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10935852
>gimic

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>10935867
I didn't give my impression of anything. The previous poster did!

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>10935875
Yes, my keyboard ate my 'k.' Thank you for finding it.

[Anonymous No.]

Sorry OP, but I think that out of all /jp/sies there might be only around ~6 genuinely interested in the story.

Touhou is just a pretext for them to post lolis all day and fantasy about sex. I don't think that they're even playing the games, probably only downloaded the thing, tried it once and then let it died in a corner of their HDD.

[Anonymous No.]

I'd like for the next game to be based off of this.

[Anonymous No.]

ZUN's gimmick is making shitty games that attract hordes of faggots and he's milking you retarded good so why would he stop.

So, just where have we not gone with Touhou? Not gone to the point of making a decent game that is for sure.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10935924
ZUN probably hasn't made a dime from upwards of 95% of the people here.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10935924
ZUN doesn't make much money off of the games. Definitely not enough to make him rich or even support himself.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10935910
Secondary detected.
Did you even read CiLR?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10935956
I only play the games.

[Anonymous No.]

Now I want to see a spartan Touhou game

[Anonymous No.]

you are such a funny man white ren

[Anonymous No.]

Isn't this sort of what happens when so many communities base themselves around a single franchise, much more so one headed by a single person such as this?

The whole deal seems sorta volatile.

[Anonymous No.]

Touhou is declining.

[Anonymous No.]

The story about Moriya's conspiracy in MoF and SA is not bad but then UFO and TD just ruined everything by re-using ancient evils awaken twice.

[Anonymous No.]

ZUN will abandon 2hu and 3hu will be created to continue where it ended.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936007
Where's 1hu

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936008
Truly thrilling...

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936012
pc98

[Anonymous No.]

we still need a game set on the moon

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936016
Isn't that just 2hu 1-5?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936008

Complaining that the plot in Touhou is formulaic is like complaining that water is wet. Something happens, the player characters fight random people until they run into the stage 6 boss, everyone has tea. Touhou has always been about the characters and the music, at least as far as the main games are concerned, and I don't think either have lost their charm.

[Anonymous No.]

Yes, we all now Touhou was always a masterpiece when it comes to storytelling until recently and that EOSD is always compared to the most famous epics of ancient Greece. The main reasen people dislike the newer games is clearly because of it's story.

Stop fooling yourself, OP, you just want new cute characters that appeal to some fetishes you have. Old characters you don't like appear again? Tohou is ruined! No new character is cute in your eyes? Touhou is ruined!

[Anonymous No.]

He is running out of cool powers for her lolis, specially the stage 6 bosses and Extra bosses. Byakuren's is just a lame "Magic" and Miko's is a strange mix of Shotoku's rumored ability and mind reading that nobody really knows how it works or how powerfull it really is.
Mamizou is a character that Touhou was asking for, its strange that Zun would wait so much to bring a tanuki, but she doesnt fit the extra boss profile. A traditional tanuki is an average youkai, not a specially powerfull one. Her theme is good and it fits her and her design has been improved with FS, but it is hard to compare her to characers like Flandre, Mokou, Yukari or Suwako, she just doesnt belong there.

Now, that doesnt mean DDC is going to be a bad game, specially if he gets rid of mechanics like Trance or Ufos. The main selling point of a touhou game for me is the music, and as much as people didnt like TD for its gameplay the music is still very good

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936061
Tanuki are as strong as fox youkai kisume like Ran, who is also an extra boss, even if Ran is stronger by being Yukaris pet.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936070
A kitsune's powers depends on the number of tails it has. Ran has 9 and as you said she also gets power from Yukari. Nine tailed foxes in japanese mythology are very powerful, like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamamo-no-Mae
Tanukis are famous youkais, but not specially known for being powerful, and she cant use a tanuki's main weapon, his testicles

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936114
How are Tankui's testicles related to their power? Japan, as always, baffles me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936061
>Mamizou is a character that Touhou was asking for, its strange that Zun would wait so much to bring a tanuki

She's his trump card.

All common youkai are. He withholds using them until he's truly out of other ideas.

>but she doesnt fit the extra boss profile. A traditional tanuki is an average youkai, not a specially powerfull one.

Mamizou is not a common tanuki, she's the goddamn Danzaburou.

>>10936114
>she cant use a tanuki's main weapon, his testicles

She has an even more powerful weapon, her mammaries.

[Anonymous No.]

I'm a firm believer of enjoying the story and flavor over gameplay, because any kid with a computer can make a bullet game, but it takes a certain collection of experience to make something wonderful; a world, so to speak.

But that's just me. I can't speak for any /jp/er here, of course.

>>10936061
So, my thoughts on recent 'end bosses'...

Byakuren is more a warlock who has the traditions of a monk, and access to dark magic. It isn't fair to say 'lame' magic, especially since she draws a lot of her theme from where she's been locked up for so long. And besides, I enjoyed her music.

Shou's ability to 'understand 10 at once' seems suspect at first, but Reimu also has such a simple ability. She's also one of the most powerful, in terms of shown spellcards, anyway. The ability to float doesn't seem to mean just 'in the sky', after all...

Mamizou, Mamizou... a tanuki in Japanese mythos isn't exactly unique or legendary per se, but in Gensokyo's case, the more ancient and notable the yokai, the more powerful. It's that whole yokai feeding off of the fears of humans deal.

The problem with people as I see it is that they're comparing what they've experienced (EoSD and such) with what is coming (TD and such) and complaining about things like "Where is my cute gothic lolita vampire?!" when they should be complaining about even having European monsters in a Japanese-set game.

There's my two cents.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936143
>Mamizou is not a common tanuki, she's the goddamn Danzaburou.

Thats a good point i guess

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936240
>Shou's ability to 'understand 10 at once' ...

I suppose you mean Miko

>The problem with people as I see it is that they're comparing what they've experienced (EoSD and such) with what is coming (TD and such) and complaining about things like "Where is my cute gothic lolita vampire?!" when they should be complaining about even having European monsters in a Japanese-set game.


Besides its not just that. I dont know how can you call EoSD story anything but dumb. All touhou games from PCB have some sort of backstory, specially the last ones. Every game from Mof is related to the previous one.

EoSD story is: Boom, there is a vampire mansion. Boom, the vampire spreads a red mist to hide the sun because she feels like it. The heroine beats her and then the vampire hangs out at the heroine shrine. What a deep story, Shakespeare couldnt have done it better, yeah.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936262
Yes, Miko. Apologies.

>Besides its not just that. I dont know how can you call EoSD story anything but dumb.

It isn't a Pulitzer prize winner, to be sure. But it certainly does it's job for setting it up for the rest of the games. For one, this is where the whole spellcard rules were created, and also what starts the formula of 'incident'. But nothing is 'boom' instant. Deepness isn't something shown, but rather, it's the things that aren't shown, the things that leave you wondering about a mysterious world presented to you.

EoSD, TD, and all of the games combine into the story of Gensokyo, and by taking it all in is how I can enjoy ZUN's work. It is Touhou [Project], after all.

Plus, I like his pattern designs. They're fun!

[Anonymous No.]

He could add different power-ups. It's not too far-fetched when you consider most gimmicks rely on collectables, and we've had mechanics like Supernatural Border.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936262
>All touhou games from PCB have some sort of backstory

EoSD was the first game of the Windows reboot, though.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil/Story/Prologue

There's your backstory.

It's a fairly humble and simple beginning, but it works to the series' advantage. For all ZUN knew, the game could have flopped, so there's no sense setting up a multi-game arc in the first one.

Besides, it's not like he didn't take the opportunity to set things up. I'm almost positive ZUN has (or at the time, had) something planned for Sakuya. Even in the context of EoSD alone, she's the most mysterious character. She's a human, yet she has powerful abilities and survives her battles with Reimu.
At least, I hope he was setting something up. He hasn't done much with her since. Maybe DDC will expand on her some more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936262
MoF story is: Boom, there is a huge shrine. Boom, the god wanted the red white shrine maiden to fuck off because she feels like it. The heroine beats her and then the god and her shrine maiden hangs out at the heroine shrine. What a deep story, Shakespeare couldnt have done it better, yeah.

See, you can do anything if you overgeneralize and obfuscate details and everything else.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936376
She's supposedly a vampire hunter who tried and failed to kill Remilia off, and instead was mesmerized.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936430
Speculations, nothing set in stone. And that doesn't even begin to explain how Eirin seemingly knew her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936430
She's a Belmont.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936442
Eirin did not "know her", she's just "surprised to see her". This can mean pretty much everything and was certainly intended that way.

[Anonymous No.]

In terms of story, gameplay, and characters, it has all gone to shit with UFO, and everything following it. The peak was at PCB and IN. Or maybe I'm just not as enthusiastic about it anymore.

[proREMIRIAt Elite Force Commander !rSDMROXTB. No.]

There's a limit of how many times you can exploit a game idea and not make it stale.

>>10936609
>it has all gone to shit with UFO

Motherfucker say that to my fucking face and see what happens

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936646
It has all gone to shit with UFO. Whatcha gong do bout it nigga?

[proREMIRIAt Elite Force Commander !rSDMROXTB. No.]

>>10936674

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936674
Nah. It all went downhill since PC98->Windows.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938282
It all went downhill since the arkanoid -> STG switch.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936262

I like EoSD because of its simplistic story. I think its much easier to make an epic story with Gods and shit because there's more to play with. EoSD reminds me of the Game of Death, there's a building of eccentric characters, and you fight your way to the top.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938298

It all went downhill when ZUN started coding it.

[Anonymous No.]

One of the problems is that he's added too many characters without taking the time to truly elaborate on any of them, even the seemingly important ones. What happened to Satori? Is she dead? He just keeps piling on new ones that become increasingly less creative, kind of like Pokemon.

I think he should start killing some of them off like the PC98 games to spice things up a bit, even if it's just one or two. Starting with Mamizou.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938380
Killing Mamizou would actually be genious move when thinking about the plot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938380
Pokemon had uncreative designs from the get go this isn't a new thing, look at Dugtrio, Magneton, Electrode, Dodrio, etc. and tell me they're creative.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938416
More creative than an ice cream cone and a bag of garbage. Not to mention, they're re-using the same designs too fucking much now. I understand that there can be more than one type of bird, but there are over a dozen birds, and even over half a dozen different types of sentient rocks.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938416

The annoying thing is, people (including me) still like them for their simplicity, game makers are damned if they do and damned if they don't, so you should just not give a damn and make what they want.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938380
I can't say I mind any of the new characters, and he's only been making a game every two years, so it's not like he's being particularly fast-paced compared to five games in two years for 1-5, or even four in four for 6-9.

But doing nothing with Satori for five long years is nothing but criminal. There's no excuse.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938428

Wrong. Well, maybe about the garbage, but Vannilux isn't a literal ice cream, its a visual pun. Its actually icicles and snow stuck together that look like an ice cream.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938434
It's not just with Satori, it's with pretty much the whole cast of SA.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938451
Well, Okuu was playable and Koishi is now, though the rest of them mostly just rot away and get the consolatory cameo at best. Orin did have that little bit in SOPM at least.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938474
Okuu didn't even have a story in 12.3, and like the rest of the SA cast, never got a chance to appear in the manga except for several pointless cameos. She was just kind of "there" for no real reason. It likely will be the same case with Koishi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938491
Okuu was part of stories again at least. That's more than Satori can say.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10935852
This is repeated every year, over and over, most likely since 2003.

TD had good visuals, good stage music (Desire Drive) and even new game features (Overdrive and Youmu).
The TGA CD had a music style rather unusual to ZUN.

[Anonymous No.]

I think IN and UFO were the creative high points of old and new Windows Touhous, respectively. The games and stories themselves are so formulaic that there's only so much variation you can achieve within them. Stage 1 -> Stage 6 -> tea time. The two I mentioned relied the most on gimmicks and plain good design (like the stages foreshadowing the bosses), as well as memorable settings.

Eternal night+eternal life+artificial moon+Ikaruga+rabbits? Buddhism+a spring sky+a flying ship+retro shmups?! These sort of themes that ZUN manages to creatively combine are the best part of Touhou to me. You can see the research that's gone into them by reading the Touhou wikis. A lot of the character names are meaningful puns, and there's all these connections like the Buddhist wheel being the literal wheel of the flying ship that controls its fate.

Personally, I'd like to see more experiments like Phantasmagoria, Fairy Wars, and the photo games. Things that retain the characters and settings and danmaku we all love, but do something novel with the actual gameplay.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10935956
What does CiLR exactly have to do with a man and its turtle?

I only remember it being about the Hourai elixir and the moongirls again. Mind you, I have shitty memory and I barely remember to breathe every once in a while.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936240
Good, I'm not the only one who genuinely enjoys the story.

I didn't read the rest of your post, all I care about is someone else acknowledging the existence of a plot.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938504
Yeah. But my point is, that I think that not just Satori, but the whole SA cast deserves a lot more attention than what little they've been given by ZUN. They were the most popular cast back in 2011, but they're slowly fading into complete obscurity these days except for Satori.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936240

>when they should be complaining about even having European monsters in a Japanese-set game.

I agree with your post, but just because Touhou is set in "Japan" and has an Eastern theme doesn't mean it has to use solely Japanese monsters.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938539
There is a chance that Yuugi might do bigger stuff in WAHH in the future, for 1 chapter at least, right before it ends. I see no hope for Parsee and Yamame though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938578
I haven't read WaHH in awhile but I'm interested now. What happened?

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938590
The plot actually moved on somewhat and it's confirmed that Kasen knows Yuugi. Suika also has actually seen Kasen in one chapter now, but has not confronted her yet. The fact that the plot moves on also means that the manga most likely will end in 3-4 chapter though.

Read up, they should all be on the wiki.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938539
But if you give more attention to Satori, the rest of the SA cast naturally tags along. This is not true for the surface-visiting Koishi, Rin or Okuu, or for satori-avoiding earlier bosses. The best way to expand on the underground is with Satori.

Though if I were ZUN, I would right now be thinking of a new manga set in Chireiden. It'd be about one of Satori's lesser-yet-humanoid pets who does small chores for her master and travels around the entire underground in the process. There's surely plenty of Japanese mythology about afterlife you can invoke in the remnants of former hell, and when you're out of those, you can just introduce the SA bosses and visitors from the surface. The story would just write itself.
But I'm not ZUN. Maybe it's for the best.

[Anonymous No.]

I think this talk about "creative peaking" or whatever is BS. I have enjoyed Touhou for many years now, and I will continue to do so as long as I find it interesting.

That's all there is to it.

Can't enjoy the newer games? That doesn't need to mean that Touhou has gotten bad or has passed some kind of peak. It just needs that you need to move on and fins some new hobby.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938601
Well, I don't want to crush your hopes or anything, but if it's foreshadowing you're seeing, ZUN practically foreshadowed Okuu's appearance several times in WaHH. He gave her a very easy way to enter the plot but never built upon it, and just kind of dumped the idea of Kanako wanting her to help industrialize Gensokyo altogether with all that bull about "cold fusion".

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938648
Okuu has no real relation to Kasen though and the main plot is about her in the end. That cold fusion thing is long over and pretty much never mentioned again. Yuugi has a better chance of appearing right now than Okuu does, if the manga doesn't just end before she can do anything. If Kasen really is an Oni, than Yuugi not being there at all would be a very strange move indeed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938682
If I remember correctly this took place even before Kasen was even introduced.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938698
Kasen appears on page 6 in the very first chapter already. There is basically nothing happening besides Reimu and Marisa talking about that arm before Kasen is introduced.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10938712
Well I hope your right, if it's any indication of SA being implemented into the plot.

[Anonymous No.]

Guys, guys,
● red hair
● dark gothic style dress
● something that looks like cat ears
● red bullets and a pentagram
There are two possibilities here:
1) it's Orin and ZUN didn't forget about SA cast
2) ZUN created a touhou with a design very similar to existing one meaning that he ran out of ideas and touhou indeed is dying.
You can say whatever you want about the decline, but I don't believe in that. Tomorrow (actually it's today since I'm from Europe) I'll celebrate the return of Orin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10939319
Well it would be relevant if only he wasn't have created a touhou with a design very similar to existing one already. Sigh, Summer

[Anonymous No.]

>>10936504
See >>10940937. Yesssss, fuck you, fuck you HARD. Certainly intended that way my butt.

[Anonymous No.]

>>10941049
Note that it in no way proves that Eirin "knew her".

[Anonymous No.]

>>10941126

Are you stupid?