Hey /jp/. I'm using Tae Kim's guide to learn japanese, but I don't feel like I make any progress. I often have to look up Kanji I should already know, often don't get something and so on. Anyone made the same experience? What should I do?

File: 8 KB, 409x410, ss (2012-09-15 at 02.13.12).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 12:35:49 2012 No.9955305 [Reply] [Original]

Hey /jp/.

I'm using Tae Kim's guide to learn japanese, but I don't feel like I make any progress. I often have to look up Kanji I should already know, often don't get something and so on.
Anyone made the same experience? What should I do?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 12:42:18 2012 No.9955327 You should suck my cock dude

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 12:53:29 2012 No.9955372

Have you ever learned a foreign language, or is jap your first? It's normal to feel like there's no progress, just don't try to rush things or lose your confidence. It's not about knowing jap in a year or less, it's about learning jap.

Take your time with kanji, it's normal to mix/forget those just as you would with new words in a foreig language. Imagine someone learning english from scratch, it'd be normal for them to mix up words and definitions from time to time.

If you don't feel like learning today, don't, you'll just end up wasting your time as you may have trouble actually learning. Knowing your learning pace and the best methods for you is the best way to learn a language. Whatever you go for, just don't give up easily.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 12:53:44 2012 No.9955373 How long have you been studying? It takes years to know the kanji well. Don't pay attention to those people who "learn" them in one or two months.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 12:55:14 2012 No.9955382 >>9955305 It takes time. Progress is too slow to be really noticeable.

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 12:59:59 2012 No.9955404

>>9955372
It's my first foreign language (English doesn't count, because it's similar to my native language and well, everyone can speak it)

>>9955373
It's been some months now, I don't put a lot of time into it. More or less my daily Anki repetitions.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:04:02 2012 No.9955424 >>9955305 OP here. Oh, and my current also is to go to university and study japanese there. I think it'll be a lot easier if I already know the basics

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:09:23 2012 No.9955442

>>9955404
>>9955424
Do you have any study material other than Anki/Tae Kim? You could pick up a game without kanji to gain vocabulary through the kana. Personally, I find memorising kanji to be immensely easier if I can use it in a context. Learning kanji through vocabulary learning is a bit more dynamic than grinding both, at least for me. Maybe at university you could get some better studying tips, I can only speak for experience.

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:09:52 2012 No.9955444

>>9955305
Use Heisig and review by looking at the keyword and then writing the kanji. Brute forcing it is just going to make you forget unless you want to put years into it (when you don't have to).

>>9955373
Don't listen to this person, OP. You can learn the writings and meanings of all of the jouyou kanji in a few months if you apply yourself. Don't let the rote memorization fools draw you into their nonsense.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:10:52 2012 No.9955450 Wrong board. Ask >>>/lang/ or >>>/a/. Latter have constant Japanese learning threads up, check the catalog.

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:11:37 2012 No.9955454

>>9955442
Learning kanji through vocabulary is basically looking at a bunch of squiggly lines that have no meaning to you and hoping you'll remember the gist of them. It's better to quickly grind through the kanji first, and everything else will be infinitely easier.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:14:37 2012 No.9955472 >>9955444 Not him, but Kanji Damage works well for me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:16:37 2012 No.9955481 >>9955472 Either one is fine. Try both, OP. Heisig uses visual mnemonics and Kanji Damage uses verbal mnemonics. Personally, visual mnemonics stick in my memory more. When using Kanji Damage I felt like I had to write them over and over or I'd forget.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:17:37 2012 No.9955489 >>>/a/73801817

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:18:07 2012 No.9955491 >>9955481 I did that. ;_;

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:19:24 2012 No.9955497 >>9955491 What do you mean?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:20:24 2012 No.9955499 >>9955497 I wrote 1 thousand kanji over and over.

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:22:09 2012 No.9955504

>>9955499
That sucks. At least you learned them, though!

When using Heisig I would focus on the visuals for about 30 seconds to 1 minute, then write the kanji 5 times, or 10 if it was more difficult (Heisig says only write it once). Then I would review by looking at the keyword and writing the kanji once, each time I reviewed.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:23:24 2012 No.9955510 >>9955504 I just glanced at a kanji poster once. It ain't that hard... If a Japanese baby can do it then so can you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:24:43 2012 No.9955516 >>9955510 One day I hope we can just get brain implants that will make us fluent.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:27:28 2012 No.9955528 Try Genki. If that doesn't work either then you're probably just to stoopid to learn Japanese. Tough luck.

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:30:28 2012 No.9955533

Do this OP:

1. Use Heisig to learn the writings and meanings of the jouyou kanji
2. Go through Tae Kim and learn the vocabulary and grammar he presents
3. Start going through the Core 2000 and then Core 6000 vocabulary decks on Anki.

I say do the core decks after Tae Kim because they have example sentences which allow you to see the vocabulary in context; these would be useless to you if you didn't know grammar.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:33:58 2012 No.9955547 Thanks for reminding me to do my reps OP. As a reward you can smell my smelly neet pussy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:35:00 2012 No.9955554 憂 is actually Chinese language, not japanese. All kanji stem from Chinese.Japanese just copied.They always imitate our culture.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:35:15 2012 No.9955549 >>9955547 btw i'm a girl

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:37:30 2012 No.9955562 >>9955444 You can learn something in that period of time, but for your brain to recall all of that information it takes time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:38:48 2012 No.9955572 >>9955554 Go away, hanja (韓字) are a Korean invention. Suck it, China and Japan. Confucius was the greatest Korean.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:39:34 2012 No.9955576 >>9955562 That's why you do SRS with Anki. You're not supposed to just blow through Heisig and then never review any of it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:42:33 2012 No.9955591 >>9955576 He's one of those guys who took 5 years to learn 1000 kanji the traditional way, and attacks Heisig whenever it's mentioned.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:43:19 2012 No.9955597 >>9955576 Are you arguing with the right person? I'm telling OP not to do that, and to not expect to learn japanese in under a year.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:44:20 2012 No.9955602 >>9955572 Any source?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:45:49 2012 No.9955605 >>9955597 There is no reason that someone with a normally functioning brain, sufficient time to study, and motivation cannot be reading Japanese in a year or less. The methods and resources available today have made it much easier.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:46:34 2012 No.9955610 >>9955605 See: >>9955591

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:47:20 2012 No.9955613 >>9955554 >our culture. 黒人ゴーホーム

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 13:49:52 2012 No.9955618

>>9955605

I'm not saying that you can't become proficient to a certain degree. For example, you learned hiragana in a day right? But how long was it before you were able to instantly recognize and read them? It takes time for your recall to catch up with your learning, and no amount of repetition can force that process.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:00:25 2012 No.9955683 >>9955618 Sure, reading speed takes time to develop.

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:05:58 2012 No.9955711

>>9955533
Not OP, but how should one do core2k/6k?
Some people recommend writing the word+sentence each time, but that takes ages. I do that for hard sentences, but most of the time I just write down the word in kana+kanji. Yet my retention is still bad.
Is that normal?

And do I have to finish the entire guide before starting that? While I stopped at around 150 in core because some things were confusing, I was thinking I'd start studying new cards after finishing the "essential grammar" part. Which is roughly up to 3/4ths of the guide.
Asking because reading it is such a pain for me. It's nicely written and all, but every time I open it it feels like sticking my head into a grinder. Should I just shotgun what I have left and go back to the confusing parts once in a while? Or should I go through the rest thoroughly no matter what?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:07:57 2012 No.9955724 >>9955711 You should just give up before you commit sudoku.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:11:57 2012 No.9955758 >>9955711 IMO go for comprehension and recognition. Get your writing practice from Heisig.

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:15:43 2012 No.9955777

>>9955758
Yeah, done that already. I've no problem with writing. People just recommend doing so in core because it supposedly makes it easier to remember. Actually, from what little I've studied, I generally remember the kanji first, before the actual word.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:18:42 2012 No.9955802 File: 48 KB, 547x709, anki-decks.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] dem decks

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:20:27 2012 No.9955817 >>9955802 You could have Core 2k and Core 6k in one deck.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:22:00 2012 No.9955842 >>9955817 I prefer the way these are laid out.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:26:23 2012 No.9955865 >>9955842 Also the large deck with 2000 and 6000 doesn't look like it has separate audio recordings of the word and the example sentence, or am I looking at it wrong?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:26:23 2012 No.9955868 >>9955842 Why is there 10 steps for 2k then only 10 steps for 6k? I'm done with step 3 on 2k so far but it starts to get hard and some words are veryhard to memories.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:27:22 2012 No.9955875 >>9955868 6k has 12. Some of the later steps have more cards than the previous steps.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:29:07 2012 No.9955887 >>9955875 Ah, I missed that. How far are you? Or are you done with them all? If so, do you think it was worth it or do you recommend to just create a deck and add your own sentences?

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:29:53 2012 No.9955893 >>9955875 Just checked. Core 2000 have around 1000 cards per step Core 6000 has around 1250 per step, and steps 9 through 12 have about 2500 cards each

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:33:55 2012 No.9955928

>>9955887
I'm starting on core 6000. I just have all the decks already loaded for convenience. Personally, I like having the vocabulary and sentences already laid out for me. It saves me a lot of trouble. But use what works for you. If the core decks are causing you a lot of grief then you should definitely try modifying the way you study them or either try a different method.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:41:43 2012 No.9955977 >>9955928 It's just that AJATT and all the other preachers say that you should go bilingual after 1k sentences. Well I'll just keep going till I drop. Thanks for replying. Have a nice evening or hurricane.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:42:44 2012 No.9955985 >>9955977 monolingual*

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 14:51:32 2012 No.9956041 >>9955977 I never used a monolingual dictionary until after I hit 10,000 sentences, and my Japanese is fine. Use what's fastest and most convenient.

Anonymous Mon Oct 29 20:59:14 2012 No.9958133

I found that if you know the word already thanks to your anime, it's way easier to learn a kanji, for example 動 I learned it because you always hear 動かない in any series, so it was pretty "click" the moment I realized the meaning and reading. I'm sure I won't ever forget it.

のワの

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 21:03:29 2012 No.9958168 No matter what some idiots tell you, Do Not use Heisig, unless you want to waste time learning a lot of silly stories for 2000 characters, only to find yourself unable to read shit anyway at the end.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 29 21:56:46 2012 No.9958588 I've been using both the Heisig and kanjidamage decks on Anki, because I couldn't figure out what people were saying was the better one. Is it redundant to use both?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 04:59:42 2012 No.9959427 >>9958168 What do you recommend then?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 05:02:27 2012 No.9959438 >>9958168 except heisig never teaches you to read. ironic how you weren't able to comprehend this.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 05:20:29 2012 No.9959489 is there a guide or textbook that teaches all the grammar you need up front so you can start reading with a dictionary right away?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 05:44:44 2012 No.9959528 >>9959489 Like Tae Kim's guide? Don't really know what you mean.

Anonymous Tue Oct 30 05:51:15 2012 No.9959538

>>9959528
I don't know, I haven't really looked into anything yet. I've been learning runes incidentally just from playing eroge and I figured I could start picking things up for real if I had somewhere to start. from hearing people talk though it seems like all the guides are focused on vocabulary though which seems like a stupid way to learn a language.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 05:55:46 2012 No.9959548 >>9959538 You've gotta learn vocab for a language to have any purpose. There are guides specifically for vocab just because each word has a character to it.

Anonymous Tue Oct 30 05:59:46 2012 No.9959559

>>9959548
obviously memorizing vocabulary is something you need to do for any language, but for any beyond your first I think grammar should be the first thing you should learn. once you have that down you can start trying to read shit while looking up words.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 06:36:41 2012 No.9959618 You are simply retarded, OP. You will never learn japanese. Deal with it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 06:56:05 2012 No.9959660 >>9959548 >each word has a character to it. That's just completely wrong.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 07:02:05 2012 No.9959668 >>9959660 You get the drift.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 08:11:11 2012 No.9959782 Start reading stuff.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 15:03:01 2012 No.9961006 >not making your own kanji decks FAGS

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 15:04:46 2012 No.9961008 >>9961006 >anki

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 30 15:07:31 2012 No.9961021 >>9961008 think it's bad?

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 31 00:23:53 2012 No.9963706 >>9959668 very cute

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 31 00:29:25 2012 No.9963751 File: 47 KB, 459x674, please respond.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] have you done your reps for today?

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 31 00:41:12 2012 No.9963807 >>9958588 Yes, it is. You should be able to tell that one of them is working for you. Either Heisig's visual mnemonics or KD's verbal mnemonics should be sticking more. Use whichever works for you. I like Heisig more, personally.

Anonymous Wed Oct 31 00:43:59 2012 No.9963819

>>9958168
I went through Heisig, and most of the mnemonics eventually dropped away. And I gained the ability to write and recognize all of the jouyou kanji. Vocabulary would have been an absolute nightmare had I not already known how to write and distinguish the kanji being used.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 31 00:48:46 2012 No.9963841 >>9963751 Yes

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 31 05:13:55 2012 No.9964713 >>9963751 Not yet (10:13 AM here) But holy shit, 1267 cards sure are a lot

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 31 19:24:53 2012 No.9967647 File: 2 KB, 269x62, ss (2012-11-01 at 12.23.48).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9964713 samefag here, my daily stuff

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 02:18:57 2012 No.9969630 I tried a few methods when I started, try HumanJapanese (IOS/PC) for the basics and Kanji de manga for beginners kanji.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 02:28:15 2012 No.9969667 >>9955305 tae kim's guide is more like a complement to formal nihongo classes

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 02:36:01 2012 No.9969690 >>9963751 not today, i'm too lazy

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 07:04:19 2012 No.9970233 >>9969690 Please don't say you are lazy.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 13:52:39 2012 No.9971437 where do I get the anki decks?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 13:57:39 2012 No.9971463 >>9971437 through anki obviously. download public decks

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 14:09:27 2012 No.9971507 What exactly is heisig? Ive got the deck on anki, however there are no readings or stroke order to go along with it so I feel like im missing something

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 14:13:42 2012 No.9971525 >>9971507 Heisig wrote short stories for every Kanji to make it easier to remember them

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 14:15:42 2012 No.9971535

I've been mining sentences. Just realized I've finished the last part of my book.

Don't know if it's worth it, though, since adding ~30 sentences, mapping out the readings and defining the shit I need on the back card can easily take an hour. Maybe it'd be better to use that time for pre-made decks instead.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 14:18:27 2012 No.9971543 >>9971437 Its better to make your own i'd say, extra level of reinforcement.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 14:22:44 2012 No.9971555 >>9971543 That's they say, but fuck if I know whether it holds any merit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 15:23:07 2012 No.9971784 >>9971507 >What exactly is heisig? Shit.

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 15:28:56 2012 No.9971803

Just a reminder.

http://pastebin.com/KaWcfU4K

This is the pastebin of the daily japanese threads that used to be posted here (and then got crossboard link sage'd over to /a/)

It has some good recourses and download links. I'd reccomend, although personally i didn't use heisig for kanji.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 15:45:09 2012 No.9971879 >>9971803 what did you use then?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 15:54:09 2012 No.9971912 >>9971803 There were DJTs here as well?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 16:13:51 2012 No.9972004 What's a good site where I can translate something? It doesn't need to be accurate or anything as long as it's better than google translate.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 16:15:09 2012 No.9972015 I want to start with kanji. I already downloaded Anki, which decks should I download?

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 16:23:54 2012 No.9972062 >>9972015 JLPT N5 Kanji

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 16:33:12 2012 No.9972119 >>9971437 Download and install anki, then click open the program and click "get shared" It will take you to the website where you can download the decks

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 16:35:27 2012 No.9972132

>>9971507
What you're looking for is the book "Remembering the Kanji" by James Heisig. There are three volumes. Vol. 1 teaches the readings and writings of the jouyou kanji (a supplement is available online for the additional 2010 jouyou kanji), vol. 2 teaches readings, and vol. 3 teaches advanced kanji. Most people volume 2 and pick up the readings from vocab. Volume 3 isn't really necessary either. You can acquire them in various places online.

But yes, volume 1 will contain the mnemonics, stroke order, etc. You're not supposed to just have the deck.

He also wrote a book called "Remembering the Kana" if you need help with that.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 16:36:28 2012 No.9972136 >>9972132 most people don't use volume 2*

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 16:43:27 2012 No.9972172 >>9972062 Thanks, buddy.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 17:13:52 2012 No.9972254 >>9972004 please respond

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 17:15:52 2012 No.9972262 >>9972132 I meant "Vol. 1 teaches the meanings and writings of the jouyou kanji." Just noticed the mistake.

>>	Anonymous Thu Nov 1 17:24:30 2012 No.9972293 >>9972254 Bing Translator is sometimes better. But besides Bing and Google Translate I don't know sites where you can put in whole sentences, maybe others can help out

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 17:30:00 2012 No.9972316

Just use Kanji damage and learn the meanings and onyomi, kunyomi can wait with the rest of your vocab. Anyone just learning meanings though is fucking retarded, and as far as I'm aware that's all the first book of RTK teaches you.

Mneomics are stupid too, "HURR DON'T MEMORIZE A SHORT SYMBOL, REMEMBER A FAR LONGER STORY INSTEAD!" Your brain tends to make a connection with radicals in a similar vein to the stupid stories anyway.

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 17:49:44 2012 No.9972388

>>9972316
>"HURR DON'T MEMORIZE A SHORT SYMBOL, REMEMBER A FAR LONGER STORY INSTEAD!"

If anything, your ridiculous criticism would be better directed to kanji damage, since it uses verbal mnemonics (memorizing a story) whereas Heisig uses visual mnemonics.

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 17:55:59 2012 No.9972412

>>9972316
If you really want to memorize the readings to badly, you can use volume 2 of Heisig. I can't understand how you can say "mnemonics are stupid" and then recommend Kanji Damage, though. It's like people will say any inane bullshit to denigrate Heisig.

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 18:03:44 2012 No.9972437

>>9972412
>>9972388

I just recommend the anki deck because it trims some fat and gives you additional information about the kanji, like if it tends to use it's kunyomi in jukugo, how it's used, wether a radical usually has a certain meaning, ect, and gives you a nice collection of common words they're used in to study off of.

You can use anything in a similar vein really. I know all the reading in the deck with reasonable accuracy, and I've never paid attention to mnemonics. I do think it's likely a waste of effort.

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 18:05:32 2012 No.9972447

>>9972437
I highly doubt that you have not come up with your own mnemonics. Regardless, you're basically saying people shouldn't take shortcuts and should just brute force everything. There's no reason to learn shit like a Japanese kid when you don't have to. If it worked for you, though, that's great.

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 18:13:48 2012 No.9972480

>>9955305
1st year - 10ji/day
5 before bef 5 before breakfast
2nd year 5ji/day
5 before bed, weekly reviews
start reading manga
3rd year 1ji/day
weekly reviews
write down any interesting new ji and meet some jap friends to learn bushi, read a book
4th year several ji/week
continue with jap friends, try and read some literature or at least a couple of VNs or light novels
5th year
collect interesting books
you should be fluent by now, its time to try out for JET if you've finished college, or else just take a trip to japan

i never used a book to learn more than a few ji. once u know bushi you dont need them anyway

i use lingoes and youtube MMD movies

Anonymous Thu Nov 1 18:14:47 2012 No.9972483

>>9972447

>I highly doubt that you have not come up with your own mnemonics.

In a way, I didn't make a conscious effort to do so though.

Sort of like, "Oh yeah I remember that, because it kind of looks like this"

And perhaps you're right, I don't think it is a short cut, and I really think a person should search their options before dedicating time to a certain method, I've done a lot of very inefficient routines, but this one worked out.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 06:37:25 2012 No.9975890 Reps for today done, my fellow /jp/sies? Captcha: man thanks

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 11:28:14 2012 No.9976850
File: 305 KB, 650x365, YuruYuri01-00002-650x365.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9975890
Hi /jp/sie. I only have 49 reps today (yay). Gonna clear them out and add some new sentences right away.

Have a good day /jp/, and don't forget about your Japanese studies!

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 11:39:40 2012 No.9976891 File: 4 KB, 391x34, allicrab.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9975890 not yet

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 11:49:38 2012 No.9976926 >>9976891 Which program/website is that?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 11:56:53 2012 No.9976953 >>9976926 wanikani.com, still in beta. I like it

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 11:58:23 2012 No.9976957 >>9976953 Thanks, I will have a look at it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 12:05:30 2012 No.9976987 Tae Kim is about grammar, not kanji.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 12:46:39 2012 No.9977136 >>9971535 why do you do this? just copy paste from whatever source and cloze the part that you want to learn.

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 14:13:11 2012 No.9977397
File: 39 KB, 516x436, Untitled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9955802
Are the core 6000 decks a good complement to the core 2000 ones? I used to do only the first core 2000 one, but I think I started enjoying doing my reps and learning the language and picked up a couple of extra ones.

>>9955442
What games would you recommend, anon? Or rather, is there a good place to find games in Japanese? It would probably be incredibly easy to do so if I searched in Japanese in the first place, but I don't have that luxury yet.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 14:23:06 2012 No.9977448 File: 3 KB, 485x36, fug.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] fug

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 14:25:22 2012 No.9977455 >>9977397 >Are the core 6000 decks a good complement to the core 2000 ones? You should do the core 6000 decks after the core 2000 decks. 2000 starts off with more common vocabulary while the 6000 decks move into more advanced vocabulary.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 16:47:34 2012 No.9977994 File: 14 KB, 240x79, a.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 16:49:53 2012 No.9978006 People here actually use mnemonics? If you were autistic it wouldn't be necessary.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 16:54:53 2012 No.9978037 File: 5 KB, 493x119, reps.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9977994

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 16:56:38 2012 No.9978045 >>9978006 Being autistic doesn't mean you have great visual memory.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:05:12 2012 No.9978093 >>9978037 You should try studying with a timer that sounds off every X seconds to remind you to answer. It makes you a lot faster with reviews.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:07:27 2012 No.9978102 >>9978093 Well I was writing all of them, and I took a few breaks in between.

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:20:37 2012 No.9978173

>>9955305

Nah, it's fine. It's only natural to make mistakes and what have you while you still go at it.

Progress is slow, but just keep at it.

I learn through a messy but broad combination of Tae Kim, reading manga with furigana and all-kana videogames to learn vocabulary, Anki to recall and review the Kanji and vocab I've encountered and Genki because why the hell not, can't hurt to read more.

I feel like I've made decent progress, nothing even close to approaching literacy but occasionally I'll be able to catch the gist of a sentence and it'll feel good.

Just immerse yourself, do all of the everything.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:23:48 2012 No.9978197 >>9978173 I tried raw manga too (Ika Musume). But I had to look up every single word and it took me like 15 minutes for the first page. Games will probably be the same

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:30:32 2012 No.9978242 >>9978197 You need to know about 4,000 words to function independently without looking shit up all the time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:33:30 2012 No.9978254 >>9978242 Yeah. I just can't enjoy a manga if I need hours to understand one chapter

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:38:04 2012 No.9978278 >>9978254 Then grind some vocab.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:41:49 2012 No.9978298 >>9978278 I try to, but it takes up a lot of time

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:42:19 2012 No.9978301 >>9978278 that's what he was saying grinding is hard work

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:47:49 2012 No.9978313 it's hard as fuck, it's going to take a lot of time

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:49:20 2012 No.9978323
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>>9977397
Oh, one thing I don't understand about the core 2000 3 deck is that the font is smaller for some reason. That, and there seem to be less pictures. Did I fuck up the download process or broke something somehow?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:51:38 2012 No.9978332 >>9978323 Should I use Anki 1 or 2? What about mobile devices?

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:52:08 2012 No.9978334 >>9978298 Welcome to language learning.

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:54:23 2012 No.9978340 [DELETED]

>>9978332
I just started to use Anki 2 because the website tells you to download it now instead of anki 1.2. So I updated. I actually like the previous Anki better because there was a gigantic repeat audio button in the taskbar glued to the window. On this one, you have to open a separate drop-down menu and click "Repeat" or press the R button. It's a little annoying.

>>9978334
Oh. I understand.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:55:38 2012 No.9978346 >>9978340 I think I read something about Anki 2 not being compatible with the Android/iOS App so far? Did you try that out?

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:57:08 2012 No.9978350

>>9978332
I just started to use Anki 2 because the website tells you to download it now instead of anki 1.2. So I updated. I actually like the previous Anki better because there was a gigantic repeat audio button in the taskbar glued to the window. On this one, you have to open a separate drop-down menu and click "Repeat" or press the R button. It's a little annoying.

If you make your own decks or something, I don't know what's different, but if you're just using it to study shared decks, there's virtually no difference.

>>9978334
Oh. I understand.

>>9978346
Sorry, added a bit of info to the post. I don't have such a phone to try it out, apologies.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 17:59:53 2012 No.9978365 >>9978350 Okay, thank you anyway

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 18:00:24 2012 No.9978367 >>9978323 Just redownload it and see. Also you don't need to do multiple core 2000 decks at the same time. Just do the first step, then do to step 2 deck when you finish it, etc. You can set Anki to give you more then 20 new cards in the options menu.

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 18:03:23 2012 No.9978380

>>9978367
...why not? Well, regardless, it's too late now. Even though I only have 40 cards seen on step three and a little less than a thousand on two, my OCD would kill me if I let the reps build up.

And I mean, it's not that bad. I'm learning more vocabulary, the sentences don't seem that much more complex, my workload didn't increase by that much... I'm actually thinking of downloading some core 6000 decks now.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 18:07:57 2012 No.9978397 >>9978380 You're just making things more complex than you need to, with no benefit to gain. They're arranged in steps so that you can do them in sequential order.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 18:09:12 2012 No.9978400 >>9978397 Also I would not be surprised if the sentences in later decks build upon the vocab learned in previous decks, meaning that if you do them out of order you will not get much benefit from the example sentences.

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 18:17:42 2012 No.9978421
File: 39 KB, 516x415, Untitled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9978400
I actually managed to guess what this sentence in 3 was on my first try! I was so proud. It was all because the first deck taught me what よく means.

Which I guess kind of proves your point, BUT STILL. I don't want to give up on my decks now! I know I'm just making a fool out of myself by not increasing the number of cards I learn on a single deck, since other decks still add more new cards on total I have to do, but this method just feels right. I've been looking so long for a way to stop fighting my tools and get to learning, I don't want to change it now.

I'm sorry, anon. I'm letting you down. I wish I could cater to your advice, but I'm too stubborn.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 18:37:20 2012 No.9978494 File: 59 KB, 516x327, Untitled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] And I'm done. Fuck that Tae Kim deck, it is awful. See you guys tomorrow!

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 18:44:19 2012 No.9978527 >>9972480 >2 years to read manga The fuck are you doing? Even if you took lessons from a twice a week class you would be reading shit faster than that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 18:51:04 2012 No.9978567 >>9978421 You're fucking stupid.

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 19:52:50 2012 No.9978879

>>9978421

No matter how many anki decks you spam, you're not going to become fluent because you don't have any direction or context. Seriously. I was exactly the same until I started taking actual classes.

It's tough, but I really don't think you CAN learn Japanese alone. This stuff is supposed to a supplement to actual, professional teaching, not a substitute, and if you use it as one you'll get nowhere.

That's just my opinion but, speaking from experience, getting an actual teacher and getting enrolled in a course was the best thing that ever happened to my Japanese learning. I'd recommend you do that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 20:04:48 2012 No.9978923 >>9978879 What a load of bullshit. What did you do, try memorizing vocab for a few months and then give up and take classes?

Anonymous Fri Nov 2 20:07:18 2012 No.9978934

>>9978879
I tried to do classes before. But all I can find is gimmicky classes which want you stuff like have conversations in context or do little theaters, and they force you to only answer questions in Japanese or else they'll deal some sort of awkward punishment like you're six years old on preschool. All I wanted was some serious classes where I could focus on learning.

I gave up on that. Teach me instead if you're so convinced it works.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 21:50:55 2012 No.9979468 >>9978242 No. I know more than 4,000 words and I still have to look shit up all the time.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 21:56:55 2012 No.9979505 >>9979468 Let's change the number to 20,000 just to be safe.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 22:07:43 2012 No.9979548 >>9979505 I'll have to get back to you on that, in about 15,000 words.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 22:18:27 2012 No.9979589 Leave it to /jp/ to attempt to learn Japanese by a Korean guy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 22:19:31 2012 No.9979592 >>9979548 I doubt you still have to look things up "all the time" if you know 15,000 words.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 22:32:16 2012 No.9979647 >>9979592 15,000 + 15,000 = 20,000? Come on, man.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 22:34:01 2012 No.9979652 >>9979647 Oops, I thought that was a separate person who was saying they are "in 15,000 words" as in they have learned that many. The comma threw me off.

>>	Anonymous Fri Nov 2 23:02:01 2012 No.9979784 >>9979652 構わないでね。

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 00:17:34 2012 No.9980089 >>9978923 Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over againbut expecting different results, Anon. >>9978934 Sign up for a proper university then. Seriously, I've not seen any of that shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 07:12:34 2012 No.9981802 こんにちは！　done your reps?

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 07:43:13 2012 No.9981929

Since Japanese is sometimes considered an Altaic language and since an Uralic-Altaic language group exists, but I am not sure if Japanese or Korean is included in that, would it be marginally easier for lets say a Finn to learn it when compared to a indo-European language speaker? Or is this too far fetched?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 07:56:59 2012 No.9981962 >>9979589 the Japanese imperial family is descended from Baekje immigrants, I don't see your point.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 08:13:47 2012 No.9981994 >>9981929 I thought that /jp/ was a linguistic expert. Apparently not.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 15:35:52 2012 No.9983892 >>9981994 You expected your question to be answered in 30 minutes?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 17:33:02 2012 No.9984256 >>9983892 It probably would have been answered if I hadn't saged. I don't know if it is a stupid question, I just have never before seen it been asked or answered before.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 17:38:12 2012 No.9984274 File: 2 KB, 136x57, allicrab.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9981802 erryday i'm waitin'

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 17:39:15 2012 No.9984277 Is anyone using TextFugu here? Is it worth it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 17:45:58 2012 No.9984292 File: 15 KB, 288x95, Capture.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9981802

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:01:18 2012 No.9984343 File: 38 KB, 650x50, probably_closer_to_500.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9981802 SRS pls

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:03:18 2012 No.9984354 http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2012/07/08/review-of-ank/ What do you make of this, /jp/?

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:03:48 2012 No.9984356
File: 38 KB, 516x337, Untitled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Well, that was quick. It's amazing how fast the workload goes by when you focus on the job.

I'm feeling a little sad with only this much work though. I want another deck to complement these. I was thinking about downloading the first core 6000 deck, but that might be too advanced for me right now.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:05:08 2012 No.9984362 File: 19 KB, 668x92, in 3 hours.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9984277 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G55lRztE5Ls >>9981802 round the clock d00d

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:06:22 2012 No.9984366 >>9984354 >I use iGoogle

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:06:52 2012 No.9984367 >>9984354 That Tae is a faggot

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:07:07 2012 No.9984372

>>9984354
>If you are just starting out, given all new words you would need to learn (and quickly), I would not recommend SRS. Given the additional time it takes to make the cards and the time wasted reviewing words you already know, it’s not worth it. If you know a word, you don’t want to hide it so that it comes back in 8 days. You want to get rid of it and move on. You have thousands of new words waiting for you to waste any more time on ones you already learned.

It sounds like you should ignore everything that isn't part of his grammar guide.

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:09:22 2012 No.9984373

>>9981929

Japanese is of its own language family.

There's a few advantage starting languages:

English; >90% of loan words are known already.
Chinese; >90% of kanji meanings are known already.

Some other languages will have phonological similarity; latin-based vowels are very similar, some European languages use the alveolar tap (so does English, but anglophones recognise it as T, or D, not as R, or L). This will make pronunciation easier and more clear, and will probably aid listening comprehension too.

Other than that, there's not really an advantage for any language.

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:09:37 2012 No.9984374

>>9984372
What I mean is, his opinion on Anki is stupid. There are pre-made decks you can use. If you want to delete a card you just go fucking delete it. I can understand him disliking it since he has been using a different system for a long time, but his discouragement for new learners to use it is silly.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:10:37 2012 No.9984378 >>9984374 >If you want to delete a card you just go fucking delete it. Or you can suspend it. I don't think he used the program very much, honestly.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:11:22 2012 No.9984382 >>9984354 How does he propose "learning" vocabulary without any SRS? Just reading it and remembering it forever?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:13:07 2012 No.9984389 >>9984382 He says to flood yourself with new content and don't really worry about it, and you should learn by osmosis.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:13:52 2012 No.9984395 >>9984389 Seems legit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:14:52 2012 No.9984400 >>9984389 How can I find new content?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:15:07 2012 No.9984405 >>9984389 Doesn't work. Not at all. I did that for 5 years before I started structured study. I picked up about 1.5k words, but that's not efficient at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:18:22 2012 No.9984414 >>9984400 Read more varied eroge.

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:18:22 2012 No.9984415

>>9984405
Yeah, I didn't think it would. It's good that it worked for him, though.

>>9984400
Here's what he says:

>I personally recommend the “deluge” method of dumping your brain with TONS of interesting content. This means plowing through pages of books and manga, hours of dialogue, and conversation practice forgetting more words than remembering them. Don’t sit around wasting time entering and reviewing what you’ve already seen, just get more, more, and MORE STUFF!!! You’ll be surprised at how much just seems to stick somehow like osmosis. Some people feel this is not effective because they end up forgetting so much stuff. They don’t realize that the fact that they even remember forgetting it means they’re learning it.

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:34:21 2012 No.9984459

My major problem with anki was the complexity of syncing. It seems completely uncontrollable and just arbitrarily writes old data over new, for seemingly no reason.

I lost all my review progress my due to the sync deciding an incredibly outdated version was clearly the most appropriate, overwriting the real deck. I still had the deck file, so I rewrote it, but doing that doesn't preserve the review spacing, so I had to regrind the entire deck (several thousand reviews due). This had the later effect of the second/third reviews hitting all at once, due to all being "started" at the same time.

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:37:21 2012 No.9984474

How do you use the core decks?

I always understand what the sentence means, but I have problems remembering the Kanji readings when I have them introduced from the deck itself, and end up marking most as a fail. Soon enough I go in pathetic circles of 50% failed cards.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:41:53 2012 No.9984498 >>9984474 Nothing to do but keep grinding it. As far as I can tell at least.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:46:39 2012 No.9984533 >>9984459 Were you using Anki 1 or 2? Because syncing with Anki 2 is really good now, much faster with no conflicts.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:49:53 2012 No.9984543 I found this in my bookmarks; maybe it'll do someone good. http://pastebin.com/Y3eLSAqV

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:51:08 2012 No.9984546 >>9984533 I don't use anki any more, but this was over a year ago, so it would have been Anki 1. Can it preserve review data, as well as cards?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:51:23 2012 No.9984548 >>9984543 Looks like the pastebin of /a/'s DJT, except with less stuff.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:51:38 2012 No.9984550 >>9984533 Do you also use it on a smartphone? How is it with compatiblity there?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:53:53 2012 No.9984560 >>9984543 How would you guys rate Genki?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:55:08 2012 No.9984567 >>9984560 I rate it a 4

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 18:55:53 2012 No.9984566 Completely unrelated, but did anybody ever scan the new hori-zun books?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:12:37 2012 No.9984635 >>9984567 Out of 10

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:12:37 2012 No.9984636 Quick question、what is that thing that looks like a quotation mark next to hiragana called? For example, the thing that changes は　to ば。

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:12:37 2012 No.9984637

>>9984546
>Can it preserve review data, as well as cards?
When I upgraded to Anki 2 all my review data was there, from about 500 days ago.

>Do you also use it on a smartphone? How is it with compatiblity there?
On Android, yeah. But there is no stable version of Ankidroid 2 yet, although it works OK (I've been using it on a daily basis since April, no issues)

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:14:52 2012 No.9984642 >>9984636 Also, where can I find a COMPLETE chart of hiragana and katakana? I know most of the hiragana, I just need to practice and make it faster.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:15:07 2012 No.9984650 >>9984635 Actually I rated it 4 out of 6.5.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:15:37 2012 No.9984655 >>9984636 濁点 dakuten　び半濁点 handakuten ぴ

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:17:02 2012 No.9984667 >>9984636 Wikipedia you dumb whore.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:22:44 2012 No.9984683 What romanization method does /jp/ use when typing? チャンス >chansu >tyansu パンツ >pantsu >pantu シックス >shikkusu >sikkusu etc...

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:22:44 2012 No.9984684 は = ha ば = ba ひ = hi び = bi and so on.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:23:14 2012 No.9984687 >>9984684 was meant for >>9984636

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:23:59 2012 No.9984691 >>9984683 Top one.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:24:44 2012 No.9984693 >>9984683 I think the first one is the most correct and easier to use.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:24:44 2012 No.9984694 >>9984655 Thanks. >>9984667 Fuck you too.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:25:15 2012 No.9984699 >>9984683 >チャンス Does this mean "to be asphalt"?

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:26:14 2012 No.9984702 >>9984694 You wanna fuck bitch? Get on your knees and whip out your ass.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:26:29 2012 No.9984703 >>9984691 >>9984693 Hmm, I use the bottom version. From what I've seen, it's what most Japanese people use, and it's less key strokes. >>9984699 What?

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:27:14 2012 No.9984705

>>9984642

Again, wikipedia.

You won't find a "complete" chart anywhere, though - there's kana combinations used which aren't listed in any chart I've seen. Like: ティ、セィ、ドゥ, etc.

>>9984699

'Chance'...

>>9984683

I use tu, ti and si, as they don't take as long to type. Screws me up if I write in romaji, though.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:28:30 2012 No.9984712 >>9984703 チャン＝歴青 which means asphalt or bitumen.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:29:40 2012 No.9984717 File: 1.34 MB, 315x315, fugg u.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9984694 No really. Wikipedia has everything you asked and it's also accurate.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:30:53 2012 No.9984725 >>9984712 れきせい is a more common reading, I'd think. チャン alone sound like a Chinese name.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:31:23 2012 No.9984732 >>9984717 Maybe I just wanted to talk to you guys instead. If I googled everything I wouldn't be able to talk to you guys as much.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:31:38 2012 No.9984733 >>9984683 I like to write like I was on paper with kana. So not shortcuts like tu, si, etc...I'll keep that for later.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:32:08 2012 No.9984734 >>9984725 It's also a counter for games of mahjongg.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:35:53 2012 No.9984756 >>9984734 Mahjong is a Chinese game, so the readings for mahjong terminology isn't really applicable outside of Mahjong. Nobody would read 中　as "chun" anywhere but a mahjong parlor or something.

Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:38:38 2012 No.9984767

>>9984756
It was actually invented by a Korean named Park Jong-sik, and the game was marketed in the United States as a Chinese game because back then Korea was a little known place in the west, and everybody knew China. Mahjong actually is a Korean invention.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:41:09 2012 No.9984783 >>9984767 Please go back to /pol/, Kimchi. Coreans go home.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 19:56:28 2012 No.9984866 >>9984637 Is there even a Ankidroid 2? Can't find it in the play store

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 20:19:54 2012 No.9984974 >>9984866 http://code.google.com/p/ankidroid/downloads/list Latest version is Beta 20. I don't recommend upgrading if don't really know how these kinds of things work at all. If you can install this, then trying with the default deck is obviously safe.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 22:46:07 2012 No.9985772 Can I just use the core 2000/6000 decks and learn by osmosis? They have 6000 vocab words and sentences.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 23:07:50 2012 No.9985899 >>9985772 Perhaps supplement with a Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 23:24:16 2012 No.9985992 >>9985772 How about you just move to Japan and learn by osmosis.

>>	Anonymous Sat Nov 3 23:58:21 2012 No.9986178 >>9985992 Why would I want to leave my room?

>>	Unnamed Book-Reading Youkai !!XUU92Uht5OG Sun Nov 4 00:06:02 2012 No.9986213 File: 164 KB, 1562x693, 1335489311857.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Tae Kim -Corean name -using a Corean's advice to learn Japanese not even once nida

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 4 00:28:49 2012 No.9986317 >>9986178 So you can learn by osmosis.

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/jp/ - Otaku Culture