/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>fox-ears marisa
>greedy reimu
I sometimes get the feeling that ZUN is reading too much fanwork.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013675
Shut the fuck up, you retard.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013677
What did I ever do to YOU?
...
Oh right...
Well, for my defense it could be said- You started it; Next time don't pick internet fights with smarter opponents.
Now, back on topic...

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013683
Back on topic, SHUT THE FUCK UP, YOU FUCKING DIPSHIT

STOP POSTING

[Anonymous No.]

In response to Reimu being greedy, play PCB stage 2 with her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013677
Eat shit, aspielord dickwrangler.

>>9013675
Yes, ZUN gets a lot of influence from fanworks, believe it or not. SoPM is good evidence of it.

[Anonymous No.]

Why don't you nerds BOTH shut up?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013691
Go fuck yourself, OP too.

Why would any of this be influenced by fanwork? "OHNOHOWCOULDZUNINTRODUCECHARACTERSTHATARENTTOUHOUSANDDONTHAVEORIGINALSILLYHATSOHEMGEE"

Stop this shit.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013690
I wasn't aware there was difference in PCB between two routs of the same char.
Anyway, wanting good fortunes is normal for humans, so doesn't need to be a monk or something.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013691
Please ignore him, he just want to flood this thread with flames and shitposts.

anyway, I guess you are right; touhou IS the fandom, so it's only natural for it's creator to be influenced by it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013703
Why don't you actually read the dialogues and the print works before making stupid threads?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013714
Are you fucking kidding me? Touhou is the fandom? And you want not to get flamed? Seriously?

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013715
>printed works
i don't have much spare time lately.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013720
Please respond to this post!!

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013720
Touhou IS the fandom, in sense that what many of the fans consume are not the games themselves but the works that other fans produce, like drewings, fangames, doujins, remixs....
think I'm wrong? lets hear your reasons.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013722
And I don't have much spare time to flame you because of your uneducated opinion, but tough shit, I guess.

If you have time to make threads, go fucking read the print works.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013729
>And I don't have much spare time to flame you
Yet you desperately respond to every post he makes. Multiple times.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013729
It's posters like you that make people outside of /jp/ turn to /a/, so i should be thankfull that your kind exists, but shouldn't you go and take a shower of cold water or something?
and wash that mouth of yours while you're in it. with lots of soap.

any question can be solved without talking and only thinking, but discussing is part the fun. or would you rather just stick to 'mood' threads like flanfly and 'lol autism'? if so, why shitting all over the place when you can just hide and ignore?

look at me, descending to your level... mission accomplished, I guess?...

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013726
Touhou is Touhou, the fandom is the fandom. Touhou has its own defined canon, which is updated by ZUN. You might not be aware of it, you might not like it and that's okay, but it still exists. You can't substitute it for something you pulled out of your ass.

Reimu is greedy and that has been imposed by ZUN to the fans, not the opposite. Look at most of the fanwank you are fussing so much about. Reimu is completely watered-down in this aspect in most fanworks.

As for the kitsune in WaHH, how is she influenced by fanon? I want to hear YOUR reasons on that one. ZUN never said the only kitsune is Ran. Just like he proved that there are other tengu or kappa or even humans and gods except the ones in the games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013736
I have that love-hate relationship with OP. I always flame the shit out of him and he always gets butthurt, but I care about him. It breaks my heart when he says embarrassing things.

[Anonymous No.]

WaHH
-Reimu is lazy and greedy for money
-Marisa is basically a thief, she tried to steal from Kasen house

SoPM
-Sanae is popular with the boys in her profile

Not happy with it? Then get out of the Touhou fandom.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013750
>he always gets butthurt
Please stop. My monitor is melting from the irony. I am almost certain you are in violation of global rule 2.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013746
>Touhou is Touhou, the fandom is the fandom
yet many of touhou discussions talk about fandom as if it was part of touhou. Canon> Fanon, true, but fanon has much more waight than it should have on the franchise itself. fandom is not just decoration in touhou, its a large part of it.

>Reimu is greedy and that has been imposed by ZUN to the fans, not the opposite
So you are saying that zun was the first to describe reimu as coin pinching maniac? in this work reimu's greediness IS watered down compared to fanwork, but that doesn't change the fact that fanwork came first in that regard.

kitsune is not fanon.
drawing marisa with fox ears and tail is. I know it has a reason ingrained in plot, but that doesn't change the matter.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013766
Looks like you haven't been here for long or you'd know about what happens in thoughtless celestial's threads.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013768
>but that doesn't change the fact that fanwork came first in that regard.
Not that other guy, but please show me evidence of this. I'm honestly curious.

>I know it has a reason ingrained in plot, but that doesn't change the matter.
And this is grasping at straws. Try harder.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013771
That one kid with a severe case of aspergers gets really mad and has to flame him?

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013760
those works are quite new (I call everything after MoF new), all i was saying is that ZUN is getting more and more influanced by fandom. I don't have a praticular problem with what he chooses to bring, but i rather interested in how the plot would have turned out without the fandom.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013784
Reimu mentions money issues to Patchy in EoSD, and the shrine's money issues are talked about in PMiSS, among others. So it's not really a 'recent' thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013768
>yet many of touhou discussions talk about fandom as if it was part of touhou
It. doesn't. matter. The canon is still there, you can discuss things that aren't specified, but that doesn't make them "canon". That, I don't have problem with. But you can't change things that are specified.

>So you are saying that zun was the first to describe reimu as coin pinching maniac?
PCB

>in this work reimu's greediness IS watered down compared to fanwork
What the fuck? Are you stupid? Yes, you are. Reimu's character has at least some consistency in canon. And if you're going to say that it's influenced by canon. then which part of it exactly? Because, all I see are artists picking up bits from the dialogues and print works and expanding on them/exaggerating them.

>drawing marisa with fox ears and tail is.
It's as much fanon as Mamizou turning into Reimu in TD. Or Yuuka and Alice changing look between games.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013783
No, he just says idiotic things and everyone flames him. How about you stop white-knighting?

[Anonymous No.]

ITT: everyone take it easy, faglords.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013806
>And if you're going to say that it's influenced by canon.

Meant to say "influenced by fanon,"

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013781
>proofs
sadly, as i am not familiar with the fandom timeline i can't point out a praticular doujin that started it all- I do get the feeling that after reimu mentioned that it would be nice to get more donations- which in itself is not a greedy wish, a shrine needs donations- various songs and doujins and arts came to light.
it is a well known fact that in many fanon reimu is depicted as greedy and coin pinching. where before WaHH has ZUN implied it? 'm pretty sure songs like 'donations please' of IOSYS came before the first chapter of hermit, but i coud be wrong in that regard.

>thats grasping at straws
its marisa with fox ears. saying 'no, its a youkai disguised as marisa, zun isn't cattering to the fans with it' IS grasping at straws.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013802
having money issues != greedy.
money makes the world go round. its natural to be concerend about it to a certain extent.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013820
>saying 'no, its a youkai disguised as marisa, IS grasping at straws.
you are fucking stupid

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013820
You are fucking stupid.
If ZUN didnt implied how poor Reimu is and how her shrine doesnt get any visitor, the fandom wouldnt start making her as a poor miko.
Same with Marisa.
In EOSD, Marisa just went on a rampage at SDM and stole from the library.

And for fox ears Marisa, it is a plot point. They later mistaken the real Marisa as a youkai because her hands heal quickly like a youkai.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013820
>I do get the feeling that after reimu mentioned that it would be nice to get more donations- which in itself is not a greedy wish, a shrine needs donations- various songs and doujins and arts came to light.

No, that's part of her character. She could have been nonchalant about the issue. She could be having visitors and money. But she does neither. That's how she is. ZUN is the one who specified that, not the fans, the fans just followed along.

>'m pretty sure songs like 'donations please' of IOSYS came before the first chapter of hermit
And EoSD came before "donations please", so yes, you're wrong.

>its marisa with fox ears. saying 'no, its a youkai disguised as marisa, zun isn't cattering to the fans with it' IS grasping at straws.

Again, Mamizou is turning into Reimu in TD, the Catfish is turning into Reimu. Also your call that "everything after MoF is new" is arbitrary. All he did in MoF was to update the engine.

>>9013818
This is fanonshit as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013820
>where before WaHH has ZUN implied it?
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Cherry_Blossom/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario#Stage_2

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013760

>Sanae is popular with the boys in her profile

where are you getting this from?

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013806
>But you can't change things that are specified.
ZUN is sure to leave enough holes that fans has no choice but to try and fill it with fanon. what zun writes is written is stone (and when it clashes with fannon fans will find a way to twist it, i.e letty and cirno) but many details are left to imagination.
and when the canon talks mainly about the bones, and the meat is mainly fanon, its easy to see fanon is an integral part of touhou.

>PCB
only human. it's natural to be concerend about money to a certain extent.

>What the fuck? Are you stupid? Yes, you are.
please, don't surf 4chan if you have yet to reach maturity.
>Reimu's character has at least some consistency in canon. And if you're going to say that it's influenced by FANON. then which part of it exactly? Because, all I see are artists picking up bits from the dialogues and print works and expanding on them/exaggerating them.
'exaggerating' is the right word. or more likely 'willfully misunderstanding' for the sake of the story. you know, like aya showmeyourmoves (supposedly) does.
people change. a consistent personality can still change bit by bit over time. sometime, no change is needed- some time, a trait which has not been refrenced in previous works- not negativly nor postivly- appears. this what happened here. reimu personality is consistent, but it deosn't change the fact that greediness is something new.

>TD
a new work.
>alice
a change in system
>yuuka
i can hardly call shortning her hair something that was done to appeal to fans.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013864
He's just making shit up.
Alternatively he can't read. The only line about popularity in her profile is
>She doesn't have any wariness towards human beings, and she would gain considerable popularity if she makes miracles(*2) happen as a human being.

Which is saying she could become popular with humans.

[Anonymous No.]

A++++ thread would post in again

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013864
I was pulling your leg.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013827
>>9013842
>you are fucking stupid
wow, hivemind. ants sure are smart creatures.
>If ZUN didnt implied how poor Reimu is and how her shrine doesnt get any visitor, the fandom wouldnt start making her as a poor miko.
Same with Marisa.
i wasn't talking about bimbo miko, i was talking about how greedy she is.
and marisa started out as a villian, i didn't expect better from her.
>fox marisa is for plot
no, the plot was for fox marisa. fox marisa was for fans.

>>9013861
>pcb again
not beyond what expected of a human.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013875
>only human. it's natural to be concerend about money to a certain extent.

Raiding the yakumo's house for good fortune items is natural? You silly.

Reimu has always whined about money and donations, this is nothing new. Fanon exaggerated her canon personality, but it doesn't mean fanon has impacted her canon character since these are traits straight from the official materials. Alice suddenly becoming tsundere lovely dovey for Marisa would be an instance of this.

In WaHH the fox drove Reimu's emotions to a high point with its magic. You could hardly consider it typical behavior.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013675
>fanon, secondary, hurr
>huh, it's the same in official media, what the fuck?

I sometimes get the feeling fans are reading too little ZUN's work.

No, that's a lie, I get that feeling all the time.

>>9013760
>Sanae is popular with the boys in her profile

Another example. Please actually go and read her profile (it takes at most a minute per character), don't repeat a joke some Anon made in the sticky.

>>9013768
>are saying that zun was the first to describe reimu as coin pinching maniac?

Did you read CoLA? CiLR? SSiB? Sangetsusei? Played PCB, MoF or UFO? It's all over the fucking place.

>drawing marisa with fox ears and tail

Every Touhou ever has been repeatedly drawn with animal characteristics of various kinds. Including characteristics that make no sense and Touhous that have their own, different animal traits. That's not fanon, that's just another peculiarity of rich, traditional Japanese culture.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013875
>only human. it's natural to be concerend about money to a certain extent.

NO. IT. ISN'T. Nobody else is concerned about money, she's the only one who fusses over money.

>reimu personality is consistent, but it deosn't change the fact that greediness is something new.
No it isn't, you can't call it "concerned about money" in EoSD and "greed" in pretty much everything you've seen after you got into Touhou. Stop creating double-standards to save face. Just admit you're wrong.

>alice
>a change in system
>yuuka
>i can hardly call shortning her hair something that was done to appeal to fans.

Again, double standards. Why aren't these an appeal to fans? Because you think so?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013895
>Raiding the yakumo's house for good fortune items is natural? You silly.
It is, actually. I don't actually know what people are disagreeing about here, just wanted to chime in here.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013843
>nonchalant about the issue
Reimu is quite nonchallant about EVERYTHING, judging from her in-game dialouges.

>EoSD
is not a proof of her being greedy.

>TD
a new work.
>catfish
that one was a joke. no seriously, i mean come on.
>everything after MoF is new is arbitrary
you got a point, but that doesn't change that in his recent works he cater to fans more than he did in previous ones. like making cirno her own game. im not one of does that are saying 'satori design was influanced by a joke on ZUN art' but TD is not a proof as to how ZUN always did things that way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013891
>Same with Marisa.
>i wasn't talking about bimbo miko, i was talking about how greedy she is.
>and marisa started out as a villian, i didn't expect better from her.

What kind of point are you trying to make here?
Yeah, Marisa started out as a villain, ZUN started that. Reimu is greedy since EoSD, ZUN STARTED THAT

>no, the plot was for fox marisa. fox marisa was for fans.
Kitsune stories precede the Touhou fandom by a lot. Go read up a couple things about kitsune, this kind of plot in WaHH 8 is older than dirt.

You know, there' a reason why so many people are calling you stupid in this thread.

YOU ARE FUCKING STUPID

Please stop wasting both our time and yours in this thread. Go read the print works now. Don't even bother replying.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9013924
>Reimu is quite nonchallant about EVERYTHING
EXCEPT. MONEY. THAT'S. HER. CHARACTER.
That's something called "being greedy"

>EoSD
>is not a proof of her being greedy.
Yes, it is. It might not seem like much, because there was no point of comparison, but it was ZUN's decision to stick with it, not the fans'.

>like making cirno her own game.
Again, his own decision.

If he really wanted to cater to the fans, he wouldn't have shot down AyaxMomiji, ParseexYuugi, lesbianism in general or cutesy, useless Suwako among other things.

The only thing I agree he did to cater to the fans was Meiling's route in Soku and even that was done reluctantly.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9013895
>Raiding the yakumo's house for good fortune items is natural? You silly.
no, wanting to raid it is natural. deciding to actually do it is natural if you are as strong as reimu and you nee to exterminate youkai as a way to pass the time.

>Reimu has always whined about money and donations, this is nothing new.
donations for a shrie are not just income, they are a measure of people fate. no donation = fate is weak. its natural to be concerend.

>In WaHH the fox drove Reimu's emotions to a high point with its magic. You could hardly consider it typical behavior.
>reimu wasn't greedy in canon, its the fox fault
this excuse i can accept.

>>9013900
>secondrary HURR
what? no! nothing wrong with liking fanwork over canon. its just not something you would expect from the creator itself.

>Did you read CoLA? CiLR? SSiB? Sangetsusei? Played PCB, MoF or UFO? It's all over the fucking place.
anything in those that goes beyond what expected of a normal shrine maiden with little visitors?

>Every Touhou ever has been repeatedly drawn with animal characteristics of various kinds.
alright you got me interested. What do you have for Youmu?

>>9013908
She fusses over DONATIOS because DONATIONS= FAITH

>No it isn't, you can't call it "concerned about money" in EoSD and "greed" in pretty much everything you've seen after you got into Touhou
I call it as I see it. reimu concern has deepened much since first she showen signs for it.

>Why aren't these an appeal to fans? Because you think so?
when did yuuka appear with short hair prior to PoFV?
why didn't ZUN keep alice as a loli if he wanted to appeal to fans?

[thoughtless celestial No.]

well, thats it. i have some 'volunteering' to do, so I bid thy farewell.
till next time?

[Anonymous No.]

Why are you shitposting like this? You used to be decent by namefag standards.

At least do productive shitposting.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9014021
well, if you want me to be like i used to be... I can try this much.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014042
Not that far back.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014002
>anything in those that goes beyond what expected of a normal shrine maiden with little visitors?

I'd say a complete disregard of her god in her pursuit of money is not expected from a shrine maiden of any kind. And I won't even mention robbing, stealing, and all that jazz.

Seriously, can't you just read them all?

>She fusses over DONATIOS because DONATIONS= FAITH

I figure what you're actually complaining about is not "she wasn't like that before". It's "I can't explain it away now".

Only you hardly ever really could in the first place.

>What do you have for Youmu?

Is searching pixiv for the variations of 妖夢 and 猫, 狐, etc... (or alternatively danbooru for "youmu_konpaku animal_ears") really something you can't do on your own?

[Anonymous No.]

>Is searching pixiv for the variations of 妖夢 and 猫, 狐, etc... (or alternatively danbooru for "youmu_konpaku animal_ears") really something you can't do on your own?

i don't think you understand very well

you made the claim

the burden of proof is on you

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014117
I'm not sure what are you actually attempting to do, but you come out as trying to play a retard.

[Anonymous No.]

>9014148

whereas while my role as a simpering jackanape is simply an act you reveal yourself to have some very basic problems with english word order

also grimdark gensokyo is canon gensokyo deal with it you blubbering harem waifu shitlords

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014082
Is searching pixiv for the variations of 妖夢 and 猫, 狐, etc... (or alternatively danbooru for "youmu_konpaku animal_ears") really something you can't do on your own?
None of those ware done by ZUN.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014186
>None of those ware done by ZUN.

What, really? My entire life until now has been a lie.

Seriously, /jp/, when did you become this stupid?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014231
Why do you bring out fanwork when the discussion is about ZUN?

[Anonymous No.]

>Seriously, /jp/, when did you become this stupid?

when you came

funny how that works

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014258
Why do you bother replying if you didn't even read the conversation?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014270
I see now, you ware supporting his claim by stating 'touhou ears came before ZUN'
But that alone is not enough you know. Who said ZUN installed ears because of the fans, even if he wasn't the first to do it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014284
>you ware supporting his claim by stating 'touhou ears came before ZUN'

Wrong. Try reading the thread again, this time with some comprehension.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014323
oh I see. you ware contradicting him.

than why saying that others beside ZUN drew with animal ears? all this is saying is that fandom came with those traits before zun did. if you chose a side, don't provide claims that support the other.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9014002
And I'm back from some extreme volunteer work myself.

>She fusses over DONATIOS because DONATIONS= FAITH
Reimu is more simple-minded than that. She just wants money, she doesn't really make the connections why that money is needed. Just like when she went on a genocidal rampage just because. Point is, none of this is something the fans asked ZUN to do, he did it himself.

>when did yuuka appear with short hair prior to PoFV?
>why didn't ZUN keep alice as a loli if he wanted to appeal to fans?
Thanks for proving my point further. ZUN just does whatever he wants, he doesn't cater to the fans, he can make Reimu greedier or he can change a character's appearance or shoot down pairings. Now if the fans respond positively to one of these changes, that doesn't automatically mean he caters to them. That's a Texas Sharpshooter's fallacy

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9014935
>Point is, none of this is something the fans asked ZUN to do, he did it himself.
he did it for the fans. same reason why he almost allowed a touhou anima- the fans wanted it.
'did it himself' says nothing. look at the 'why' rather than the 'who'.
and about reimu simple mindedness... i'm sure that in some of the earlier WaHH chapters komachi commented on that and how the hermit tried to train her. ofc, komachi words are not written in stone, but think about it before implying things about reimu.

>Thanks for proving my point further.
no, that was than, now is now. than he did what he wants. now, what he wants look like it is taken from some of the touhou doujins. good doujins, probably, but still.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9014082
>Seriously, can't you just read them all?
I don't feel like it.

and reimu would never do that, you probably misunderstood something.

>I figure what you're actually complaining about is not "she wasn't like that before". It's "I can't explain it away now".
an explantion is as good as proof when talking about unreal subjects.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9015023
>he almost allowed a touhou anima
>almost

This is so wrong it's silly. And I'm not even talking about the "he actually never did and I know it, but I'll still pretend he did to prove my point" part.

- He never, ever attempted to make an anime.
- He specifically complained about doujin group making one.
- At one point after the Ufotable short, he specifically forbid basically anyone from making any anime off his characters.

The man just doesn't want it, period. He calls out anyone trying to make any high-profile project like anime to tone it down to doujin levels, this is basically the only exception to his strict "do whatever the fuck you want to do with my Touhous" stance.

>what he wants look like it is taken from some of the touhou doujins

Can't you just admit you don't like it what he's doing? Do you really need to invent some silly justifications for your opinion?

>>9015054
>I don't feel like it.

I figured that much.

But why are you talking about things you know nothing of, again?

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9015153
>know nothing of
i know enough. if you think there are some important facts that are yet to come forth ITT speak them up rather than vagually refer to them. but you'd rather shove me off by 'read this and that and that first, THAN we will talk'. but what diffarance would it make? weather you bring up those facts or i read them up, they are still there. stop postponing.

>can't you just say you don't like what he is doing?
Who said i didn't? I like most of the non-mannaquin-romance or H doujins. i just wanted to open a discussion.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9015187
Look, I'm not reading through the entirety of CoLA once again just to find some random parts that may or may not be relevant to some 4chan discussion. It'll be faster if you just read it yourself.

[thoughtless celestial No.]

>>9015216
not gonna bite, you'll just have to figure out by yourself excactly how what you just said makes you a hypocrite.
that shouldn't be too hard.

[Anonymous No.]

>>9015510
So I'm a hypocrite because I don't want to waste my time spoonfeeding you? Okay...

And you should bite, because you should just read the fucking book already. Not for this thread. And not just because this may finally make you know what you're talking about either. Because it's Touhou, which you're supposedly a fan of. And because it's good. I don't know what were you even waiting for up until this point.