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/jp/ - Otaku Culture


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8933691 No.8933691[STICKY]  [Reply] [Original]

Trojan Green Asteroid & Symposium of Post-Mysticism discussion thread.
For more information and details :
http://msnkkan.blogspot.com.au/
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Trojan_Green_Asteroid

>> No.8933695

Oh ok, I was wondering why the sticky died suddenly.

>> No.8933705

ETA for Trojan Green Asteroid?
When do you think it will show up in share.

>> No.8933699

Ar Tonelico.

>> No.8933702 [DELETED] 

sage

>> No.8933706

Link to TGA download?

>> No.8933711

Translation where?

>> No.8933712

Cool, it's finally time to read the previous thread.
By the way oh god TGA is out already?

>> No.8933713 [DELETED] 

░░░░▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄░░░░░░
░░░█▒▒░▄▄▀▀▀▀▄░▒░▄▄▄▄▄░▀▀▄░░░░
░░█▒░▄▀░▒▒▒▒▒░▀▄▀░▒▒▒▒▒▒▒█░░░░░ Feels
░█▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▀▒▒▒▒▒▒██▀▄▒█░░░░ Spurdo
▄▀▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▀▀▀▒▒▒▒▒▒▀▀▀▒▒▒█░░ Börde
█▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒██▒░░░░░░░▒█ man!
█░▒▒▀▄▄▒░░░░░░▒▄▀▄▄░░░░░░▒█
░█░▒▒▒▒▀▄▄▄▄▄███████▄▄▄▄▄▀
░░█░▒▒▒▒▒▒▀▄▀▀████▀▀▄▀▒▒█
░░░▀▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▄▀

>> No.8933721

>>8933706

it isn't released yet, the thing it comes out has started though.

it will be posted here when it is on the internet no doubt

>> No.8933719

Really forward to Koishi's theme. Now we need a link, since it's released already.

>> No.8933728

>>8933719
I am looking forward to DESIRE DRIVE!

>> No.8933729

>Trojan Green Asteroid & Symposium of Post-Mysticism

How does ZUN come up with this shit, just flip through a dictionary?

>> No.8933734

>>8933729
He picks English words that sound cool and throws them all together in a blender.

>> No.8933735

>>8933729

2deep4u

>> No.8933744

>>8933729

He just thinks of the fancier words possible to describe the thing. "Symposium of Post-Mysticism" because a good part of the book narrates a meeting between Kanako, Miko and Byakuren.

No idea about Trojan Green Asteroid, though. What the heck.

>> No.8933748
File: 33 KB, 300x308, Virtual+Boy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8933748

>Anything that disappears, becomes forgotten, or denied existence in the outside world comes to Gensokyo.
Guys, can I go to Gensokyo?

>> No.8933747

I'm excited waiting for it.

>> No.8933757

>>8933744
Astronomy club aniki.
They stargaze and stuff so of course the name of the album has something to do with space.

>> No.8933755

>>8933748
Sure, just follow the Star Wars Holiday Special and New Coke, they'll lead you straight there.

>> No.8933762

>>8933744
A green asteroid that's a trojan.

>> No.8933767

>>8933755
Star Wars Holiday Special may be denied, but it is certainly not forgotten.

>> No.8933818

I always thought that Renko and Maribel are some kind of alternate reality/timeline version of Reimu and Yukari.

Crazy I know.

>> No.8933825

I thought he was talking about malware in the dls or something.

>> No.8933835

>>8933825
Get Derek in here.

>> No.8933847

>>8933818
Renko = Reimu
Marible = Yukari
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htOqsmrz_Eo
Gensokyo is just their dream and the reason why Yukari can manipulate borders. She is the dreamer afterall. Video slightly related.

>> No.8933849

>>8933825
Nope Anon, it's just music. No virus (:

>> No.8933862

Who are those two cute girls on the cover of Trojan Green Asteroid?

>> No.8933881

>>8933762
Actually, it's a Trojan asteroid that's green.

>> No.8933898
File: 121 KB, 700x800, 26268615_big_p5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8933898

>>8933862

Maribel Yakumo, Yukari Yakumo's long-lost daughter, and Renko Usami, Maribel's one-legged friend that still keeps her inspirational smile going, even though her life is difficult with only three limbs.

>> No.8933912
File: 336 KB, 666x1000, alice mandarin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8933912

I wonder if ZUN will ever make them contact Gensokyoans.

>> No.8933924

>>8933847

You're retarded. It's obviously

Renko = Reimu

Maribel = Marisa

Maribel is already Yukari.

>> No.8933927

>>8933847
MARIBEL IS MARISA YOU FUCK!

MARISA IS ALWAYS THE IN THE GAMES, REIMU IS ALWAYS IN THE GAMES.
THINK A LITTLE YOU RETARD.

>> No.8933947
File: 140 KB, 850x690, sample-a851e2e0bad464ef9eee0f4733b9c05d.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8933947

>>8933927
>>8933924
Nope.
Renko is more like the combination of Reimu/Marisa.
Black witch hat and the red tie that resemble Reimu miko dress.
Come at me.

>> No.8933951

>>8933927

Always in the games...

The other 2 are always in the CDs...

Agh, it's all useless!

>> No.8933959 [DELETED] 
File: 60 KB, 483x500, grass531.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8933959

Oh hey a sticky

>> No.8933968
File: 69 KB, 211x250, reimu_facepalm.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8933968

>>8933847
>>8933947
>>8933951
>>8933927

>> No.8933969

>>8933927
>>8933924
While it does make sense with the whole REnko and MARIbel, the latter seems more of a Yukari look-a-like and even shares her abilities somewhat.

The names was probably more of a ZUN personal thing rather than than an outright hint, it's the story itself that makes it seem more like Maribel is Yukari.

>> No.8933978

>>8933947

Now you're just forcing it. Just look at the goddamn names. Mari Mari, Re Re. The two are blonde, the two are brown.

It makes more sense if you think that Yukari is Maribel as a youkai and Renko is dead already or something, Marisa is Yukari/Maribel and Reimu is Renko.

Come on.

>> No.8933979

>>8933847
>>8933924
>>8933947
>>8933969

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Magical_Astronomy:_Story

read

>> No.8933984
File: 39 KB, 478x407, earthlings.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8933984

Guys, guys.

Maribel has said that she comes from a family that can see boundaries. This can only mean one thing: long ago, when Gensokyo did not exist, Yukari used to kidnap interesting people. One of these was Lafcadio Hearn, who acquired an undying love for anything japanese, and also managed to get Yukari pregnant.
This unknown child inherited only a fraction of Yukari's power, but it managed to stay in his lineage along with his last name.
Maribel is just a descendant of Yukari.

>> No.8933986

>>8933979
furthermore, has it ever struck you that they might just be original characters?

>> No.8934001
File: 23 KB, 450x532, 131922991236.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934001

>>8933984
whoa, no way.

>> No.8933998

That feel when you actually want to buy a copy...

>> No.8933996 [DELETED] 

wopw this board is fucken gay, why does the mod sticky gay shit like this lol losers

>> No.8934018

>>8933979
She dreamt about Imperishable night because of her desire for moon tour?

>> No.8934032

Why have I come to dislike Byakuren after reading this?

>> No.8934038

What if
They are just original characters
dumbasses

>> No.8934046

>>8934032
After reading what, specifically?

>> No.8934061

>>8934046
The symposium.

>> No.8934057

And Ghostly Field caused the incident for PCB.

>> No.8934064

>>8934061
No, I meant specifically. What detail?

>> No.8934068

>>8934032

What? Are you serious? This made her even more awesome. From the information about her constructing the Ultimate Scroll during her 1000 years of Hell, I'd imagine she went on bizarre demon slaying adventures to acquire the materials.

Just like Jesus.

>> No.8934095
File: 1.13 MB, 1280x1024, b3a8c07c927c62f8f83f41398d6b086a.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934095

Miko is growing on me.

>> No.8934097

>>8934068

Forged in hellfire and brimstone, the perfect weapon for the Youkai God Emperor.

>> No.8934106

Wasn't there something about Akyuu finding Maribel's cards and something about the future?

>> No.8934112

>>8934106
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Memorandum

>> No.8934122
File: 240 KB, 512x512, a5a70e8188a2946dc0cf17666c6cdf2a.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934122

Man, Byakuren sounds so cruel, with the whole "humans in Gensokyo exist to ensure the survival of youkai" thing and shit.

I like how Kanako promotes the pursuit of knowledge. Indeed, she seems the most level-headed of the three.

>> No.8934135

>>8934097

IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE IS ONLY GRIMDARK.

>> No.8934138

>>8934122
If humans weren't necessary for their survival, I bet they would have all been kicked out.

The youkai already lost that war and had to hide in Gensokyo. Because of those humans, almost all of the youkai have disappeared from the outside world. If anything, humans are the biggest threat.

If the human population of Gensokyo increased too much, we'd probably see all of the youkai driven out of their homes yet again.

>> No.8934131

Yeah, this release made me like Kanako a bit more.
I think I can understand why Byakuren would dislike humans so much, though. GROUNDED FOR 1000 YEARS

>> No.8934148

I sure hope Marisa get a new shot type from Miko.
She has been badly nerf since IN.

>> No.8934157

>>8934131

>GROUNDED

That's an understatement.

>> No.8934165
File: 71 KB, 600x448, 569565185.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934165

COMIC1 have just started. Now it is just a matter of waiting patiently. (the photo is from ZUN's twitter)

>> No.8934168

>>8934148
Let's design what it might be!
Maybe based on Miko's nonspells, high damage, slowish bullets that go maybe midscreen before exploding into little weak bullets in every direction?

>> No.8934166
File: 106 KB, 257x550, Byakuren.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934166

HUMANS WILL BE NOTHING BUT WORKER BEES, CREATING HONEY IN OUR PARADISE

>> No.8934183

>>8934138
Humans shouldn't grow too powerful, there's a funky balance to all this.

It just feels like Byakuren is too busy being assblasted over imprisonment to notice.

>> No.8934196

Why are the new touhou threads full of /v/ style blabbering? TD release wasn't like this.

>> No.8934201

>>8934168
Or, unfocused could work like Miko's nonspells aimed forwards, focused could be based on Miko's spinny orb spell, she shoots a few piercing, slow bullets, maybe that keep moving while you stay focused, and if you let go of focus at all, they suddenly expand in place and do good area damage for a second before disappearing? Might be fun.

>> No.8934223

>>8934196
Because usual /jp/ style of comunication is detrimental to good dialogue and argument.

>> No.8934226

>>8934223
at times I beg to differ

>> No.8934264

>>8934196
The last sticky had good discussion.

>> No.8934330

>>8934183
Interesting how Kanako agreed with her though.

>> No.8934329

>>8934196
Could you define "/v/ style blabbering"?

All the threads seem the same to me.

>> No.8934354

>>8933748

Of course, this is mostly just Rinnosuke's bullshittery and speculation.

>> No.8934395
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8934395

Renko is one of my favourite Touhous. She's just so stylish!

>> No.8934402

>>8934395
I love her outfit.

>> No.8934418

ZUN said on twitter he have already sold all the copies of TGA..

>> No.8934427
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8934427

>My thought is that the Lunar Capital is where the highest, noblest gods live - that sort of setting.On the other hand, Gensokyo is where the more friendly, indigenous gods live. I figured that there are probably many different kinds of gods. Eirin is one of them, which is why she didn't interact with the other humans when she moved to Gensokyo.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Interview

Does that mean Eirin is god? Or it's simply me misreading?

>> No.8934432
File: 149 KB, 900x720, 1333978316926.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934432

>Kisume... She doesn't really understand what's she's doing, normally. I think of her as pretty brutal though. Words are useless against her; she'd just chop your head off, stick it in her bucket, and return home. The head you see may not even be Kisume's head.

Can NOT take it easy tonight.

>> No.8934431

>>8934427
>Well honestly, until just now I completely forgot that Hatate wasn't in either the Gensokyo Chronicles or the newspapers, so there isn't really a good in-universe explanation.

This hurts. A lot.

>> No.8934435

>>8934427
>Eirin is a god?
FTFY. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch, to be honest. You're not the only one reading it that way too, so Eirin most definitely is a confirmed god, it seems. Not quite sure of what specifically, though.

>> No.8934434

>>8934354
Gensokyo has always been stated to be a place of fantasy, dreams, illusions, phantasm. Etc. There may be some level of truth to what he said, especially considering that Miko's appearance in Gensokyo seems to follow that theory.

>> No.8934438
File: 128 KB, 750x750, 1329974187636.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934438

>>8934431
I wish I had some of those depressed Hatate pictures, they'd come in handy now.

>> No.8934444
File: 83 KB, 460x288, pills.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934444

>>8934435
She's the god of meds, obviously.

>> No.8934443

>>8934427
This shouldn't be too surprising... CiLR chapter 3 already implied that she is, though of course you can interpret it in other ways... I think that's stretching it, but maybe that's just me.

Eirin was one of the founders of that civilization, at any rate.

>> No.8934447

>>8934444

She's the God of SCIENCE!

wow.

>> No.8934452

>>8934438
Search the boorus, there's plenty there.

>> No.8934455
File: 59 KB, 500x500, 1334636594745.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934455

>>8934427
>Because of that, the Watatsuki sisters are truly untouchable to those from Gensokyo.

Not even Shikieiki can beat the moonbitches.

>> No.8934457

>>8934455

That's bullshit. Shikieiki is not from Gensokyo, she was just appointed Yama of it. She could beat the shit out of those bitches any day if she wanted.

>> No.8934493

>>8934455

Reimu was slight challange for Yorohime.

Reimu, Yuyuko and Yukari would be no challange at all to Shikieki.

>> No.8934509

Reading part four of Symposium, and apparently Koishi decided to join the Myouren Temple after Byakuren invited her (because she makes a perfect Buddhist with her lack of desires). She still lives in Chireiden, though.

>> No.8934511

>>8934493
At least, can we agree that Shikieiki is this powerful because she works for "the powers that be"?
As in, an entity more powerful than every character mentioned thus far.

>> No.8934519

>>8934455
>>8934493

And yet!!!

>A secret technique that is extreme in many ways. With Reimu's ability to float, she floats from everything in reality and becomes invincible.
If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her with any method.

Yeah, good luck figuring out how all 3 of these things can be true at once.

>> No.8934521

>>8934519
>becomes invincible
Every timeout card ever

>> No.8934531
File: 510 KB, 478x640, z.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934531

>>8934519
>good luck figuring out how all 3 of these things can be true at once.

>> No.8934533

>>8934521
Too bad you can't just pass it off as being your everyday timeout card since ZUN himself really did say this:

>If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her with any method.

>> No.8934535

>>8934531
How tall is Zun

>> No.8934537

>>8934531
To answer to every question about touhou

>> No.8934541

>>8934535

He's a giant of a man. In fact, you might call him a god.

>> No.8934544

So, where is the CD? Aren't all of them sold out? That means there's a DL link out there.

>> No.8934549

>>8934541
But aren't the japoneese around 5'5

>> No.8934556 [DELETED] 

>>8934544
Comiket just started, they can't sell out that quick

>> No.8934558

>>8934556
>Comiket just started

Holy shit!
Please tell me how to do a time leap, I want Comiket to start as well.

>> No.8934562

>>8934519
See >>8934531

Its fucking ZUN. Shit making no sense is what he does.

>> No.8934569

>>8934531
>>8934562
Honestly, shouldn't we just take all 3 statements with a grain of salt?

So, all of these characters are very powerful, but not invincible. Nuff said.

>> No.8934577

>>8934569
Fair enough.

>> No.8934650 [DELETED] 

this thread should be on /vg/ not /jp/

>> No.8934656

>>8934650
Does that look like a game to you?

>> No.8934681 [DELETED] 
File: 19 KB, 478x324, 1318636427015.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934681

>Trojan Green Asteroid

>> No.8934733
File: 869 KB, 1500x1700, 814794.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934733

>>The Gensokyo That Floats in Outer Space

>> No.8934750

>>8933706
https://updates.touhou.com/ARULink/PatchDetails/process_form?patch_num=680419&release=88976640&a
mp;plat_lang=226P&patch_num_id=5510428

You'll need a Touhou Metalink account.

>> No.8934770

>>8934750
What's the main site to register? I can't seem to even access the link provided.

>> No.8934779

>>8934770
https://support.touhou.com/CSP/ui/flash.html?login

>2012
>not having a touhou account

>> No.8934791

>>8934779
"This webpage is not available" Fuck, am I doing something wrong?

>> No.8934794
File: 866 KB, 1514x1020, 34c7c098a7fe315f6215f783847ad732.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934794

>Since she cannot read minds, she no longer has anything that would make others hate her, but since her own mind is blank, she is also unable to be liked by anyone. Her presence cannot be felt except by coming into one's field of vision. Even if one is apt to have her projected from one's eyes, it would still feel as if she did not exist(*1). When she disappears from one's field of vision, one immediately forgets her.

...What?

>> No.8934800

>>8934794
In other words, she has no conscious mind, and no presence. Even if you saw her, you probably couldn't register her as being a person.

>> No.8934804

>>8934791
Do you have a cookie set from your gensokyo.org Premium Account?

>> No.8934805

IS THE DOWNLOAD LINK OUT YET?!

>> No.8934813

Searching for a torrent of Trojan Green Asteroid on google links to this thread...

>> No.8934824

Maybe this is blasphemy, but I wish ZUN would get some real musicians, or at least a better synthesizer.

Hell, by now there must be enough decent musicians in the Touhou remix scene that would pay ZUN to be allowed to perform on one of his albums.

>> No.8934851

.>>8934824
ZUN's compositions aren't terrible, but they do sound like shit. Unfortunately Japs have an unexplainable love of using shitty old synthesizers.

>> No.8934856

>>8934851
ZUN is the only musician I'm aware of that still uses '90s Roland digital synths in 2012

>> No.8934860

>>8934824
>get a better synthesizer

Couldn't agree more. He's improved a lot with the Ten Desires soundtrack, but, it's plain to see he cares infinitesimally more about his actual composing than the sounds he's using; most of the tracks use basically presets.

I suppose ZUN doesn't know his way around a synthesizer too well, since it sounds like most of his post-PC-98 songs were written with one of those "workstation" MIDI keyboards, aka an all-in-one machine that does not allow you to modify parameters on the sounds.

I recall ZUN saying once that he laments the fall of frequency modulation (FM) synth in the use of game music, and FM is what was used for PC-98, so I guess he must know how to use synths to some degree, it's just for one reason or another he gave up on really trying to be creative with synth going into the windows games. I suppose the popularity of his tracks without him really trying to be unique with sound probably lulled him into being lazy with the sounds.

>> No.8934868

>>8934856
I wish I could send ZUN some new synths as gifts. Not as in actually new, but I mean, imagine what he could do if he had a Jupiter 8 or some such.

>> No.8934870

>>8934860
>infinitesimally

>> No.8934872

>>8934870
That's an actual word, cool down your autism.

>> No.8934880

>>8934872
Except it means the opposite of what
>>8934860
used it to mean.

>> No.8934877

>>8934872
His point was that it was used incorrectly.

>> No.8934883

>>8934872
It was used incorrectly you douchebag.

>> No.8934887

In my humble opinion, just like the art of the games, the shitty quality music is part of the charm.
Plus, I feel it gives arrangers more space to build upon.

>> No.8934894

>>8934887

99% of the Touhou fanbase only likes it because of the lolis in frilly dresses. This is an indisputable fact.

>> No.8934902
File: 90 KB, 1280x720, 1328713534876.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934902

>>8934894
>not liking lolis in frilly dresses
What is wrong with you?

>> No.8934906

>>8934894
Then I proudly stand alongside the 1%.

>> No.8934911

>>8934894
I like Touhou because of the lore.

inb4 what lore

>> No.8934909

>>8934902
He said ONLY.

>> No.8934917

>>8934911
I read that as ``I like Touhou because of the whores''. Truer words have never been spoken.

Also insert image macro about mods stickying random shit here.

>> No.8934922

>>8934917
the fuck is your problem? Get out of /jp/

>> No.8934943 [DELETED] 

ya'll niggas GAY as fuck yo bunchs real pussies here nigga

>> No.8934950

is the download link out yet??

>> No.8934959

>>8934950
see >>8934750

>> No.8934961

>>8934959
the link doesn't work bro, and if it did, i'm sure somebody would have put up a torrent/ddl by now...

>> No.8934967

>>8934961
Works fine for me.

>> No.8934973

>>8934968
so what're the chances of it showing up on PD first?

>> No.8934968

>>8934950
>>8934961
Ignore him, it's not out yet.

>> No.8934976

>>8934973

0%.

It'll show up whenever it wants, wherever it wants. Japan =/= America, it might not be out on the Internet for a few more days.

>> No.8934975
File: 126 KB, 251x278, infrontofsomethingshehates.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8934975

>>8934794
Does this mean the end of LIEBE?

>> No.8935044

>>8933705

>> No.8935131

>>8934976

>> No.8935157

What are you talking about, some of ZUN's original tracks are better than most arranges. Synthesizers don't make everything shit just by existing. I agree that some of his ZUNpets are ear-blowing (like you, Border of Life), but I don't think that even those sound all that bad.

>> No.8935161

Monday 14:59 in Japan right now.

>> No.8935211

>>8935157
That's just it: we like ZUN's music, which is why it hurts that he's still using a shitty synthesizer. It'd be even better with a good synth or with real instruments.

>> No.8935302

>Since she's so strong, a manga is the only thing I can put her in. In games, you need to be able to defeat all of the bosses, after all.
yorihime confirmed for being more powerful than any of the game characters

>> No.8935321

>>8935302
Who are you quoting?

>> No.8935337

>>8935321
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Interview

>> No.8935370

ZUN is about equal with most fan work, don't care too much for the crap he writes.

>> No.8935375

>>8935337
>That's because she's a character with cheat-like abilities.

How's it feel to have a mary-sue for a waifu?

Also, its easy to put a "defeatable" character in a game, they just don't need to go using their full ability, see: Yukari.

>> No.8935388

>No matter how many years pass, newcomers will always be newcomers.

Marisa referring to Kanako, Byakuren and Miko.

>> No.8935393
File: 2.39 MB, 2747x3485, 1266784810538.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8935393

>>8934794
So, she is like that keychain that's in front of your fucking face but you can't find anywhere unless someone points its exact location out for you. But unlike the keychain, your mind forgets about how Koishi was standing there as soon as you look at something else.

My guess is, in order to fight her, you need to know she's there beforehand and hit what you think is empty space like a madman without actually aiming for her.

She deserves that EX status.

>>8934975
But she uses her ability in the Heart-Throbbing Adventure. In fact it's the first fanon work I've seen where her power is used right.

>> No.8935404

>>8935393
Koishi the loving gourmet was rather nice.

>> No.8935422

>>8935211
I agree with you for ZUN to use a more modern synth.
Although I must say things doesn't go that easy. The sound of SD-90 is the core musical identity of ZUN's music and moving to a new synth is a paradigm shift for him meaning that he needs to build a new music style. And using a real inst is sure cool but I don't think it would be a option for him, since ZUN wants to make all his work all by himself (Plus it also means that he would be in the same battlefield as the arrangers are, who are much more experienced and sophisticated at using the real inst.).

>> No.8935483

>>8935404
Yeah, she's such in asshole in it.

>> No.8935544

Well this shit came out of fucking nowhere.

>> No.8935617

Maybe he just likes the stuff he's used to. There are a dozen dozen groups who will redo ZUN's compositions with more capable synths anyway.

>> No.8935632

>>8935617
Actually, about that: are there groups that specialize in redoing ZUN's music note-for-note but with better synth or even real instruments? Including loop points, so they can be used to replace the in-game soundtrack?

>> No.8935736

>>8935632
I've thought about doing this myself many times for years, but I've always assumed someone else has already done it many times over. Still though, the Japanese aesthetic for synth programming is very dry imo (usually not much filtering, very clean and lacking midrange... a very conservative style if you'd even call it style), so if someone else has done it I probably wouldn't find it much better than ZUN's originals since honestly most people suck at synth programming.

I've been making synth music myself for a long time as a hobby (mostly ambient/experimental/idm), and have sometimes thought about taking it upon myself to redo some of ZUN's music how I see fit. I'm a serious synthesis geek actually; I obsess over analogues and early digitals and regularly spend many hours trying to coax new types of sounds I've never heard from that synth before that are still pleasing to the ears. Besides games and anime, music is basically my all-encompassing pastime. If there is literally no one out there who redoes ZUN's music with proper synth, then I'd be very tempted to take up the mantle myself, however since I'm sure I'd be mostly wasting my time on something done many times already, it doesn't feel worth my effort.

>> No.8935783

>>8935736
I don't think it has been done before.

>> No.8935804

>>8935736
Please give link to your music. I'm interested in hearing how you handle the midranges. I'm still trying to get the hang of all that mixing/mastering stuff. My soundcloud is in the email field if you wanna exchange links or something.

>>8935632
>>Actually, about that: are there groups that specialize in redoing ZUN's music note-for-note but with better synth or even real instruments?

Don't think so. I've only heard people do it with equivalent synth (like dBu music). Always considered doing some though.

>> No.8935808

>>8935804
congrats on the new album

>> No.8935815 [DELETED] 

>>8935804
congrats on the marriage

>> No.8935821 [DELETED] 

>>8935804
congrats on the congrats

>> No.8935835

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17688982
here it is

>> No.8935850

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17688735

>> No.8935857

>>8935850
>>8935835
>Dat beginning part

HOLY SHIT

>> No.8935900

That is here in China.

ttps://www.google.com/search?q=%22ZUN%27s+Music+Collection+Vol.6%22&num=100&hl=en&newwin
dow=1&safe=off&prmd=imvns&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:d

>> No.8935915
File: 32 KB, 474x353, untitled.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8935915

I wonder if these pictures included in the album or it's just the video uploader choice.

Also, which astronomical activity is this?

>> No.8935918

>>8935915
It's maths.

>> No.8935924

>>8935915
That shows the Trojan points of Earth's moon.

>> No.8935926

http://www.nicovideo.jp/tag/%E9%B3%A5%E8%88%B9%E9%81%BA%E8%B7%A1?sort=f

The ones uploaded today are legit.

>> No.8935929

Download link yet?

>> No.8935933

More music is always welcome

>> No.8935936

Hm, so Kisume is confirmed berserk monster. Not sure how to feel about this.

>> No.8935950

>>8935929
http://msnkkan.blogspot.com.au/
http://www.mediafire.com/?2u5fwmqb6vwwg9l

>> No.8935958

>>8935950

legit?

>> No.8935960

man, that koishi's theme

>> No.8935965

>>8935958
yes

>> No.8935964

>>8935958
Yep.

>> No.8935968

>>8935964
>>8935965

DOWNLOADING AT FULL SPEED NOW

>> No.8935975

>>8935950
mp3 or lossless?

>> No.8935974

Man, I liked TGA before it was cool.

>> No.8935978

>>8935975
>105 MBs

cant you tell?

>> No.8935980

>>8935975
MP3, but it's 320kbps, so it's fine if you're just concerned with listening to it.

>> No.8935993

>>8935978
I'm not sure how much is in there but I guess it can't be just 3-4 songs.

>> No.8935999

>>8935993
It has been known for quite a while that it would be 10 songs.

>> No.8936011

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm17689893
天鳥船神社

>> No.8936064

>デザイアドライブ
Why is desire drive so good?

>> No.8936079

>>8936064
It sounds like kind of like how he used to compose his PC-98 songs, that is, pure synth, which always sounds much much better than the fake cheesy trumpets he took a liking to.

>> No.8936083

UFO Romance sounds crazier than ever.

>> No.8936095

>>8933691
does Maribel have a giant boner or why is her skirt like that

>> No.8936109

>>8936079
I like the trumpets in PCB, doesn't matter if these are cheesy or not as long the composition sounds well.

>> No.8936104

>>8936095
Because you have a lewd mind

>> No.8936116

>>8936083
UFO Romance in this Music Collection sounds awesome!!!

>> No.8936121

Good, somebody finally put some info in the OP, instead of just stickying a "Breaking News: Touhou is awesome!" thread.

>> No.8936127

Somehow I like this version of Cosmic Mind even more than the original.

>> No.8936148

>>8936127
Me, too. I have always feel the original is already perfect minus the trumpet. Too bad, circles usually change more than just the trumpet in their arranges. This new version has much better balance now.

>> No.8936154

Desire Drive sounds exactly the same.

>> No.8936168

>>8936154
>>8936064

it would have been really cool if it included a trance only section.

>> No.8936172

how long before scans/leaks ?

>> No.8936173

>>8936172
320CBR MP3 is already released:
>>8935950

>> No.8936176

>>8936173
No, scans? Booklet scans...
Assuming there's anything in the first place.

>> No.8936183 [DELETED] 

>Trojan
>Trojan
>Trojan
>Trojan
>Trojan
>Trojan
>Trojan
Congrats on the marriage.

>> No.8936232
File: 131 KB, 600x803, 570307306.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936232

>>8935950
Thank you! Here's Beerface ZUN in a Sticky

>> No.8936288

penis

>> No.8936293

So Seiga's ability to pass through walls is just her making holes in the wall? Nothing like ghost?

>> No.8936294

>500 - Internal Server Error
how typical

>> No.8936301

>>8936293
That's correct. And she can restore the wall as though no hole had been made, as well.

>> No.8936311

>>8933691
Have you seen Reimu's TD ending? There you can see Seiga making a very literal hole in the wall.

>> No.8936312

>>8936293
>>8936301
Whoa, whoa, whoa, does that mean she can pass through Reimu or Yukari's barriers?

>> No.8936320
File: 239 KB, 1120x800, c0a98117c44e25fc68f77262e297e4f2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936320

Looks like Suwako and Kanako's summaries are up!
http://msnkkan.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/and-then-there-were-no-cakes.html

We get to learn just how these two gods play thier role in Gensokyo. Also Suwako seems more intimidating than usual.

Finally, Yoshika confirmed as Musician in previous life! And apparently does this still when not under Seiga's control.

>> No.8936327

>>8936312
I don't think those barriers are physical objects. It would be weird if they were. So, I don't think Seiga can pass through them that easily.

The things Seiga can pass through with her hair stick are solid objects, but not soft ones like rubber.

>> No.8936332
File: 1.51 MB, 1000x1412, fa646224e28b39852c065351ad40315d.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936332

>>8936320
I thought we established that Suwako is fucking scary when she brought out Mishaguji-sama in Hisoutensoku

>> No.8936334
File: 496 KB, 601x850, bc59cf149d616e7c093b279cfbf3f7d5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936334

>>8936312

Only physical objects, so nope barriers aren't possible.

And apparently she's weak against making holes in softer walls (like rubber). But that doesn't concern her one bit.

>> No.8936341

>>8936334
In the first place, it's weird that they think a thousand-year old hermit can't easily break something soft, even if she can't rely on the hair stick. The difference is though, that she might not be able to restore it to its previous state afterward. Well, not that she would care, I guess...

>> No.8936354

>>8936327 steal shit
>>8936334 lie about being weak against rubber

1. create demand for rubber
2. open rubber shop
3. ???
4. PROFIT

>> No.8936359

>>8936354
She is not concerned with things of a material nature. Naturally, she would not have greed and would not be interested in stealing someone's possessions.

>> No.8936414

>>8934138

Did you ever read anything canon or played any of the games? Because you sound like you learned about Touhou 15 minutes ago and just finished reading a bit of wiki pages at random.

>> No.8936432

>Prayers like "the frogs near the fields are too loud at night, could you do something about it?" will probably just turn the fields into wastelands.
I love Suwako now. She's really the best, you know.

In the first place, it's interesting that she really can control those curse gods when everyone else was unable to. I find people like Hina, Rin, and Suwako interesting, because they are always surrounded by extreme negative energy yet are completely unaffected by it, and in fact, are able to manipulate it.

>Gods are dualistic beings, worship them and you will receive blessings; anger them and you will receive retribution.
Sounds like a certain Beatrice... She said that she had the exact same policy in Umineko.

>> No.8936441

>>8936320
I didn't read the summary yet but;
>Yoshika confirmed as Musician in previous life! And apparently does this still when not under Seiga's control.

How can she play instruments if she can't even walk properly or bend her arms?

>> No.8936452

>>8936441
She can blow real well, if you know what I mean.

>> No.8936458

>>8936320
>As she is from the outside world, Kanako has high living standards. However since they don't get many visitors at the shrine, it's impossible to rely on donations to get by. Kanako actually gets her money by selling advanced technology to the kappa.

This gives me a funny view of Kanako selling crap like old TVs, Dyson fans, and Microwaves to Kappas at exorbitant prices.

What would you bring from the outside world to sell to the Kappas anyways?

>> No.8936467

>>8936458
Addendum thought I just had.

Kanako auctions the stuff to the kappa.

Speaking all fast like while kappas bid on that Dyson fan.

>> No.8936470
File: 141 KB, 170x170, 1335765760803.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936470

oh lordy, that Hartmann's Youkai arrange

all these UNTZ, I can't handle them.

>> No.8936476
File: 51 KB, 590x332, child-driving-car.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936476

>>8936458
I imagine lots of luxury/novelty items (Pic related?), or stuff you can tinker around with. Especially things made of materials not commonly found in Gensokyo, like plastics and polymers.

>> No.8936493
File: 37 KB, 500x456, classic_video_game-consoles.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936493

>>8936458
You are now imagining Kanako introducing video games to the Kappa, starting with the Atari 2600 and releasing 'new' consoles when sales start to drop.

>> No.8936542

where da lossless at

>> No.8936578
File: 745 KB, 800x795, 34313b739eead4e69f2d8956d5d90701.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936578

>>8936441

Maybe I should of said, music composer. She somehow writes up song on fallen leaves.

It's been said before that the dead can sometimes maintain thier old habits they use to do in their life. So I guess that means Yoshika was a music writer in her life.

>> No.8936589

>>8934431
>>8934438
>Hatate is basically forgotten
ZUN can go and eat a big bag of dicks

>> No.8936610

>>8936578
Oh, okay. So she's just falling into a habit, more or less unaware of why or what she's even doing? That actually is sort of frightening. Sounds like something a mad person would do.

Also are you sure it was "music composer"? The real Miyako Yoshika was a poet who lived about ~800 years ago.

>> No.8936611

Hey guise I'm just gonna make a rival for Aya for this one spin-off game

>> No.8936613

>>8934455

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to mean they shouldn't interact with them and have nothing to do with powerlevels.

Just like higher caste members shouldn't interact with lower caste members.

For them earthlings are unclean.

>> No.8936623
File: 262 KB, 517x730, top42.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936623

Since this thread is about ZUN's new album, I may ask here. Does anybody have the Oriental Sacred Place 3 CD? Not sucky Niconico Douga rips.

>> No.8936633
File: 820 KB, 2000x1437, dc77ed78fc127603548174b2870561ce.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936633

Byakuren confirmed for youkai fuhrer.

I bet ZUN liked her in Love and Peace.

>> No.8936630

>>8936611

some of her newspapers articles are in the book, stop getting so mad

she just isn't mentioned at all, not completely forgotten about.

>> No.8936647
File: 270 KB, 700x700, 1334604901316.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936647

>>8936458
>>8936467
>>8936476
>>8936493
I love Lady Kanako even more now.

>>8936633
Always knew she was a wolf in sheep's clothing. Double standards whore.

>> No.8936654
File: 601 KB, 890x700, 24305006.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936654

>>8936610

Well like I said, the link I provided to the site only gives a summary, not an official translation. If it does turn out that it's actually poetry Yoshika writes, then we can almost ensure that you will be correct since I know many have assumed that the Yoshika we see as the Jiyangshi, may be the poet in question (or at least a reference to the poet.)

>> No.8936663

>>8936623
>Oriental Sacred Place 3 CD?
Here
http://www.mediafire.com/?22n7foauy1otlco

>> No.8936666

>>8936654
>Well like I said, the link I provided to the site only gives a summary, not an official translation
I know, sorry. My bad.

I guess I was just asking the question to no-one in particular. Still, I'm a bit baffled that she can actually write either way. Or maybe it's just unreadable squiggles. That makes it even more unsettling.

>> No.8936676

>>8936414
Okay look, guy. You started this, so I guess I'll oblige. Here's my arguments for you.

Just as WaHH chapter 9 mentioned, the original form of youkai was "the terrifying, the mysterious, the inexplicable. That sort of thing." The youkai of Gensokyo are (in most cases) different; they're more like eccentric people than what humans would brand "monsters" and exterminate en masse.

And, this change is not necessarily a good thing. As Reimu said on the very next page, the role of youkai is to be feared by humans. This is backed up by what was said in Perfect Memento, too. Youkai that don't act according to their role just might disappear, as you've seen in Kyouko's SoPM article. Of course, since "youkai" is more like the "others" category of species (as said in the PMiSS article on Youkai), there are many differences among them, and not all of them probably have the role of being feared (take Hina, for example. SoPM states that she is a youkai, but that she would be fine as long as she has collected enough misfortune, which she uses as a power source).

Just as you can see in present-day Gensokyo, youkai certainly do have the capacity to not be monsters, but in the ancient past, few saw this, and humans who exterminated the particularly feared ones were treated as legends. Just look at Murasa's original profile, for a good example: she went around sinking all the ships that tried to sail in the ocean she haunted, and was meant to be exterminated, by Byakuren saved her instead. She also let the humans who traveled with her to exterminate Murasa, drown in the ocean.

>> No.8936679

>>8936676
(cont'd)
Yes, Gensokyo has a whole lot of grimdark behind it. It shouldn't be a huge surprise for any of you guys. But unfortunately, since almost nobody bothered to understand the youkai, they were all exterminated and driven out. This is why they are not seen in the outside world. Gensokyo is one of the places of refuge, where youkai live in seclusion.

And hey, all that grimdark stuff isn't quite gone yet either. Just look at what ZUN said about Kisume recently, in the SoPM interview. A lot of the especially hated youkai were sealed underground, and as you can see by various threat/friendship levels, there is also the trend of them being less friendly. Again, not that you could blame them. Many of them were sealed just because they had powers that were considered a threat, and they've been stuck down there all this time.

But remember how I mentioned that it's a problem if the youkai don't fulfill their role? Well, as PMiSS said, the cycle of Incident -> Extermination now continues only in name. And because of that... Just as it was said in Reimu's PMiSS article, where it mentioned the Vampire Incident, many youkai became depressed. They were having to find food outside of their usual sources, they were being forgotten, etc. And guess what? The reason the Oni went underground, is because they were displeased with all of this:
>Just as few humans were trying to exterminate them, they were none too pleased with the way in which the world of Gensokyo had become so carefree, and they simply went to a different world.
It would be strange to think that they changed very much, considering such things.

>> No.8936715

>>8936679
(cont'd)
Heck, even Eiki does not consider it wrong for a youkai to attack a human. What she considers wrong is for them to not fulfill their role. For example, Yuuka, who is fine with pretty much any target. Well, Eiki wouldn't lie:
>Whether it be humans or youkai, or ghost or fairies, you've attacked them. Without much reason, as well.

Of course, it's not necessary for youkai to kill humans, as long as they are feared. That's how the "continues only in name" system is supposed to work. But the fact still remains that humans taste especially good to them, so as you can see in the TH7 prologue, many youkai leave Gensokyo to grab a human from the outside world, and they make it look like an accident. But, it isn't as though they even have that tie of being of the same species, and they're just doing it to eat. Humans do much worse to animals.

The point I'm trying to make is that there's just a lot of "gray morality" here. It usually is not black or white. And, humans are usually some shade of gray too, but they tend to mistake gray for black, and that's where the problem started in the first place. Humans decided they were monsters, so that's why they ended up having that role in the first place. But I doubt anyone can see any black in things like the idea of "kill or be killed." Just look at this excerpt from Dolls in Pseudo Paradise:

>"Youkai? You've got to be kidding." But, I know. That the youkai would live in peace if the humans would let them. That youkai are more peaceful and pragmatic than humans.

I can see where Byakuren is coming from. I'm sure it was very sad for her when she understood that this place called Gensokyo, where humans and youkai were finally able to coexist, was a mere hiding place. The peaceful resolution that she desired, was trashed by the humans who could only see their fear.

>> No.8936728

Will Miko be often attacked by youkai? You know, hermits are constantly the target of a great number of youkai, because of how delicious their meat is, and usually youkai can ascend to higher levels just by eating a hermit's corpse. So doesn't that mean that some of Byakuren's Youkai will attack her, leading to a possible war?

>> No.8936745

>>8936663
I wanted it in better quality and with the cover, but it is better than nothing. Thanks.

>> No.8936752

>>8936728
I think almost the whole Taoist faction will be attacked, since they are all hermits.

For Byakuren's youkai attacking, I don't know how much of a restraint Byakuren had put on them, or even letting them go around attacking people. Byakuren is about peace, but now with her recent personality shown I'm not too sure about that.

>> No.8936761

>>8936679
>This is why they are not seen in the outside world.
>Gensokyo is one of the places of refuge, where youkai live in seclusion.

From PCB:
>Because of the youkai's civilization of magic, the youkai grew to be powerful enough to freely open even the Great Barrier sealing Gensokyo.

From PMiSS:
>From my perspective, the power of today's youkai has not weakened; on the contrary, it's too much for the small area that is Gensokyo.

They can live in the outside world (at least the strong ones can). They all choose to live in Gensokyo because they like it. Akyu even said at one point that they could invade and conquer the outside world, but choose not to do so because they are satisfied with their lives.

And they still regularly kill and eat people from the outside world.

>> No.8936774

>>8936761
Also remember that Yukari taught youkai of gensokyo that invading and conquering territories is a very bad idea ( failed invasion against the Lunarians)

>> No.8936784

>>8936761
>Akyu even said at one point that they could invade and conquer the outside world, but choose not to do so because they are satisfied with their lives.
I'd like to request the source article for this.

>> No.8936791

>>8936784

I'm pretty sure it was in that big monologue at the end of PMiSS.

>> No.8936794

>>8936715
>I can see where Byakuren is coming from. I'm sure it was very sad for her when she understood that this place called Gensokyo, where humans and youkai were finally able to coexist, was a mere hiding place. The peaceful resolution that she desired, was trashed by the humans who could only see their fear.

Oh yes. Right. See the Murasa example. Murasa haunts an ocean, sinking every ship that sails it, killing DOZENS if not more people. Finally humans decide they can't have that, that it's too dangerous, that Murasa's killed too many of them. They sail out to exterminate her, ONE youkai that has murdered many.

So what does Byakuren do? Sinks the humans' ship, takes the monster in instead. PEACEFUL AS FUCK.

>> No.8936806

>>8936761
I wonder how much of the outside world Gensokyo even knows about. Some of the more local youkai at least.

I wonder if they think outside world they only think about Japan and I wonder in their forays if they have ever seen a modern military or even know of them.

>> No.8936807

Anyone actually enjoyed Koishi's theme? I think it's not really different from the original, but it has it's own flavor.

>> No.8936809

>>8936794
She gives off this impression of one of those crazy animal rights activists now.

>> No.8936812

>>8936774

That was Lunar Capital though.

If Gensokyo youkai invaded the outside world I'm pretty sure it would look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX9Qe3vmKIo

Or that Byakuren goes to war episode of Koishi's adventure.

>> No.8936813

>>8936807
everyone enjoyed it. It's like if you could trance in SA.

>> No.8936822

Byakuren might have noble motives in wanting the youkai to coexist equally and peacefully with humans, but her actions give more the impression that she is just full of double standards

>> No.8936818
File: 469 KB, 1404x2000, Love-And-Peace_018.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936818

>>8936794
Indeed.

>> No.8936831
File: 354 KB, 917x1000, 0df93ddf05d9519018e2a38e8ec3e2a6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936831

>Now that you mention it, another hermit I know also lives in a place that's hard to get to.
Kasen confirmed for appearing in the next game.

>> No.8936841

Wanting youkai and humans to coexist is what she says, I'm sure deep inside she stills has some hatred for humans for sealing her.

>The humans in Gensokyo exist for no further purpose than to preserve the youkai

This is the line that keeps getting to me. Byakuren sounds like she wanted humans to be around so that youkai can be around. She's just holding back from attacking humans because of youkai..

>> No.8936897

>>8936794
Stop living in the past.
And Byakuren doesn't sink the ship, she just doesn't help it. There's a difference.

>> No.8936896

>>8936822
Heaven forbid someone thinks about two things differently

>> No.8936899

>>8936812
With humans at the winning side, right?

>> No.8936900

衛星トリフネ and 天鳥船神社の結界 are good
Guitars confirmed for TH14

>> No.8936929

>>8936841
>This is the line that keeps getting to me.

Why? She's just stating an obvious fact.

>> No.8936930
File: 383 KB, 850x700, 20369785.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936930

Apparently Shou shoots gamma ray lasers. That seems a little, uh, dangerous.

>> No.8936936

>Murasa sinks Komachi's boat
What an ass.

>> No.8936944 [DELETED] 

>>8936900
>Guitars confirmed for TH14

Guitars, you say?

>> No.8936945

>>8936841
>I'm sure deep inside she stills has some hatred for humans for sealing her.

Heaven forbid you actually have trouble getting over the fact that you were sealed for a thousand years and had nothing to do that whole time.

And despite that, she sets up her temple near the Human Village. That looks like to me that she still thinks they can change.

>> No.8936948

It's said that Yoshika randomly attacks people, but also that if you remove the ofuda from her head she reverts back to her personality when she was living. Does that mean that without the ofuda Yoshika is peaceful?

By the way, is the ofuda vital to keep her from falling apart or it's just for Seiga to control her?

>> No.8936958
File: 300 KB, 720x960, 26921249.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936958

>>8936900
>Guitars confirmed for TH14

Guitars, you say?

>> No.8936972
File: 584 KB, 473x704, 1330107502234.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8936972

>>8936936
Indeed. If the fighting game fluff is to be believed Hell has funding shortage as it is.

>> No.8936975

>>8934851
Sigh. They sound like shit to you because your speakers are shit.

>> No.8936978

Guys, guys, think about it. The revelations up until now all but points to a possibility of an all out war. Tensions are high, frictions everywhere, you could even say that it's inevitable. And soon enough, war will break loose in Gensokyo between the three major factions. In fact, the next Touhou game will be precisely this; a Phantasmagoria game where the three factions are all duking it out with each other.

And then who will be powerful enough to stop them? Who will be able to save Gensokyo? That's right, it's all been planned from the start, only she is powerful enough to do it.

CAN YOU FEEL IT IN YOUR BONES?

>> No.8936982

I'm not gonna whine like some other fags because ZUN doesn't use ``modern" synths. I like his music better that way.

Just because the samples sound more ``natural" doesn't make the music better. And there's plenty of dynamics in his compositions and performance.

>> No.8936993

I'm looking for lossless rips of TGA and the OSP CD3, anyone got a link ?

>> No.8936999

>Akyuu says Kanako uses Suwako's ability as a threat to gain faith.
Moriya Shrine confirmed for Yakuza. In the end, all three of them are jerks.

>> No.8937004

>>8936999
That is seemingly the message that's coming out so far. None of them really have a moral high ground

>> No.8937009

>>8936774
>Also remember that Yukari taught youkai of gensokyo that invading and conquering territories is a very bad idea ( failed invasion against the Lunarians)
Just like how Napoleon taught his troops that invading Russia in winter is a bad idea... Not.

>> No.8937012
File: 889 KB, 1000x1000, 26661633.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937012

>>8936948

A jiangshi is still a jiangshi with or without the ofuda. More or less without the ofuda, she'll just start acting on her old habits of writing poetry or music. Since based on Seiga's info, the ofuda's Seiga uses is like a set of instructions the jiangshi follows. It's her way of making her undead companion do more than just write poetry.

In either case though, she would likely attack you if she notices you are present.

>> No.8937018

>>8936794
It looks like you don't quite get it, so I'll explain the situation to you.

First of all, Murasa was trying to become a youkai so that she could get the power necessary to escape the ocean she was bound to. She wasn't doing it because "lol, let's just kill all the humans" or whatever.

Now, what we've got is several humans on a boat who want you to exterminate Murasa, and if they were to see that you're saving Murasa instead, they would report it and you would be branded a heretic and guess what? You just might get sealed away for a thousand years, or just outright killed.

In this situation, do you think you can keep both Murasa and the humans alive? You just try reaching a peaceful resolution to this, and tell me how it works for you.

And what, do you think those humans are innocent? Why would they even be going on the trip, unless they're experienced with extermination? How many youkai do you think they've killed?

I don't think you quite understand that this was a war, where everyone was trying to survive. Everyone that can fight has blood on their hands. Obviously, even Byakuren has killed people or let them die before. If she didn't, she wouldn't have lasted as long as she did.

But this war didn't have to happen. So we have one person who actually wants to reach a resolution that doesn't end in one or both sides being slaughtered. And newsflash, youkai are on the losing side.

What are you gonna do?

>> No.8937017

>>8936948
I don't think that means she is peaceful, but she might revert to some habits, without being aware of what she's doing?

But we don't know for sure yet, until her parts are fully translated.

>> No.8937021 [DELETED] 

Which Touhou has the best ass pussy?

>> No.8937032

>>8937018
But that's like choosing to save a nigger at the cost of letting the rest of your squad die a horrible death.

>> No.8937033

>>8936320

>Kanako's appearance is dashing and eye-catching. It's meant to pressure her opponents apparently.

That one fanfic where Kanako planned Reimu's death by cancer and crushes Marisa's spine just with her presence confirmed for canon.

>> No.8937035

>>8937018
That's a good point, but constructing a shrine just to prevent a rival religion to ressurect is not cool at all. Miko has such a kind heart, and Byakuren actually disrespected her own religious beliefs. If anything, I would choose Kanako and Miko, leaving Byakuren to rot, like she deserves. Youkai are already in power on Gensokyo, we don't need more power of them over the humans anymore.

>> No.8937038

All this talk about Byakuren, and the article about Miko still is left untranslated on the wiki.

>> No.8937041

>>8937032
They weren't really her squad in the first place.

Besides, they were useless as fuck and were going to die anyway - if they'd actually managed to destroy Murasa they wouldn't have been sunk in the first place. Useless ass-twats.

>> No.8937046

>>8937035
Remember that Kanako helped built the temple. I would assume that she knows full well what's going on on that ground. Miko isn't liked all that much by anyone, apparently.

>> No.8937049

>>8937032

>>>/b/

>> No.8937053

>>8937038
I'm warmly waiting for it, if I could pick a side, I would surely stand with Miko.

>> No.8937054

>>8937033
What fanfic is this? I'm interested.

>> No.8937058

>>8937046
Apparently, it's not Miko is unliked, but rather that she is way too noble and saintly for people to relate to her. She seems something completely out of your reach.

>> No.8937062

Ssssshit, now I can't bloody wait to see future Touhou official media after reading the discussions

>> No.8937060

>>8937035
You understand that what you're doing is the same as what Byakuren was doing:

So maybe you want equality, but currently one side has the advantage. Which side are you gonna take? Well, the winning side obviously doesn't need your help.

>> No.8937066
File: 226 KB, 450x636, 3dc4eecff453646198d5572c0c8d4db7.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937066

So, who else thinks that Futo and Mokou have crossed paths somewhere in the past?

Monobe's eboshi and Mokou's pants are both clothing from feudal Japan, and their clans have ties in some way.

>> No.8937065

>>8937060
Youkai a shit
Human pride worldwide

>> No.8937070

>>8937018
Humans who drown are supposed to die. If they become vengeful ghosts, etc. , exterminate them and let them rest in peace. Maybe they even return to the circle of life? I don't think that's explained.

You make this out to be war, but in which war do you switch sides when you die? I'm sure Murasa didn't care about other youkai when she was down there.

>> No.8937074

>>8937066
Mokou is the grandchild of one of the royal clan heads that lived at the same time as Futo, Tojiko and Miko.

He was killed by Tojiko's basis, and it's from that incident that her powers are based on.

>> No.8937077

>>8937066

It's likely that all the Touhous of noble background are at least aware of the other clans.

>> No.8937081

>>8937066
The Fujiwara clan has actually interaction with the Mononobe and Soga clans..

>> No.8937080

>In the footnotes, Akyuu relates this to how Jesus was also said to be born in a stable.
Interesting. Gensokyo was formed before the introduction of Christianity in Japan, right? So how did Akyuu know this bit? Francis Xavier as a touhou, anyone?

>> No.8937089

>>8937074

>hers
Who? Mokou's, or Mononobe's?
Sorry, I'm not following. Please elaborate.

>> No.8937093

>>8936978

>And then who will be powerful enough to stop them? Who will be able to save Gensokyo? That's right, it's all been planned from the start, only she is powerful enough to do it.

Yuuka

>> No.8937092

>>8937080
Christianity in Japan dates back to 1549. Gensokyo's barrier was created in 1885?

>> No.8937104

>>8937089
Tojiko.

Assuming that in Touhou canon, Tojiko is Soga no Umako; Mokou's grandfather was her enemy, and he died as he was struck by thunder. It was believed that this was a curse cast upon him by his enemy. So basically, Tojiko's powers isn't to summon thunder but the ability to cast curses that summon thunder?

>> No.8937103
File: 72 KB, 640x480, mima.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937103

>>8936978

>> No.8937107

>>8937070
It's also the case that killing gets you an assload of negative karma, so if Murasa ended up "resting in peace" at that moment, she would have been put in Hell for some ridiculous number of years. Just so you know, Avici is something like 10^18 years of nothing but suffering.

If anything, those Yama guys are the ones in the wrong, if they think anyone deserves that.

>> No.8937108

>>8937054

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7022541/1/Touhou_Death_Files_Reimu_Hakurei

>> No.8937115

>>8936978
Alice.

After you better the game with everyone, Alice is unlocked and well, she's kind pissed off. You see, during the fighting, the Forest gets seriously messed up and she says enough is enough and beats the shit out of everyone else. Gensoukyo ends up worshiping her Returns Gensoukyo back to the Hakurei Shrine and tells everyone else not to start shit again

>> No.8937119

>>8937115
>better the game
beating the game

>> No.8937118

I'm curious as to what the Nazrin summary says about her power. she managed to identify buried miko as something great so does this mean she can actually evaluate the worth of a person?

I want a book listing all touhous, what items they own and how much they are worth in yen.

>> No.8937120

>>8937092
Eh, really? I thought it was older than that.

>> No.8937124
File: 18 KB, 1905x105, ZUN should listen to this guy.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937124

>>8937118

Fuck you, THIS shit here is what the next Touhou book should be.

>> No.8937125

>>8936978

Isn't Yukari the most powerful youkai?

>> No.8937122

>>8937115
Replace Alice with Mima and you're golden.

>> No.8937128

>>8937122
No.

>> No.8937130

>>8937118
Then use them to bargain for the prices of Toho figures?

>> No.8937136

>>8937128
Fuck you.

>>8937125
Fuck you too.

>> No.8937139

>>8937124
Holyshit, fund it

>> No.8937141

>>8937136
Mima is trapped in Alice's grimoire. Deal with it.

>> No.8937145

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_1

>Kanako: The moment that humans realized that the vastness of space was beyond their ability to control, they started to convince themselves that there must be aliens somewhere out there. Even though nobody's confirmed such a thing. It's comical, how rationalism suddenly turns to mysticism when it goes too far.

For some reason, she wins my respect. I dunno why but it seems what she speak seems legit

>> No.8937146

>>8937141
The last time we saw Mima, she was making Alice serve her as a temporary personal maid, as a victory condition for the Extra stage battle.

Deal with it.

>> No.8937148

Every powerful shit in Gensokyo is sealed in Alice's grimoire. She'll open it and Gensokyo explodes with power and Alice becomes king

>> No.8937150

I rather preferred it when more things were left open for interpretation.

>> No.8937152

>>8937150
I rather preferred it when I was fucking your mum

>> No.8937153

>>8937146
That never happened.

>> No.8937154

>>8937150
Which things in particular?

>> No.8937155

>>8937150
I for one welcome ZUN's mighty hammer strikes against the fanon.

>> No.8937160

>>8937155
It makes for wonderful controversy. The battle of youkai vs. humans and the morality involved continues on even in debates here.

Though, the human side doesn't seem to have posted many arguments... Come on, this is fun to read, so keep it up!

>> No.8937161

>>8937155
Joke's on you my favorite Touhou isn't in it.

>> No.8937164

>>8937161
Mine isn't either, but I'd like her to be.

>> No.8937167

>>8937161
Let me guess, you're a SDM faggot?

>> No.8937168

>>8937164
Mine isn't either...

In fact, neither of my favorites are in it.

>> No.8937169

>>8937167
Nope.

>>8937164
Honestly, I never thought I'd be glad they weren't in, but given the shit a lot of characters have been getting (Kisume, Nitori, Satori, Koishi...) I'm actually ok with it.

>> No.8937174

>>8936978
I'd like it better if Mima was nowhere to be found, while Shinki makes a glorious comeback and aids Byakurens faction.

>> No.8937179

>>8937118
Nazrin confirmed for power-level confirmer?

>> No.8937180

>>8937174
Why would Shinki aid someone who was sealed away in a forgotten corner of Makai?

>> No.8937186

>>8937180
Because she obviously taught Byakuren Devil's Recitation, so that means there's some connection between them anyway. I'm sure they're good friends.

>> No.8937187

>>8937167
His favorite Touhou is Hatate.

>> No.8937193

All this talk about which faction is right, good, whatever. Truly the only correct answer is to side with the Hakurei Shrine.

Everyone is so hung up on the details, power struggles and all, vying for domination, that they'd end up scaring away all the people (humans, at the very least). And then everyone will turn to the Hakurei Shrine for harmony, peace and protection.

Reimu will somehow resolve this incident (relatively) peacefully and in the process, everyone will finally realize again the importance of the Hakurei Miko. Finally, the shrine will flourish with worshipers thereby signalling the end of the Touhou series. Genius.

>> No.8937189

>>8937180
All he said is based on the spellcard Byakuren uses. Devil Recitation, the spell that Shinki used when attacks didn't have names.

>> No.8937190

>>8937150
You mean they aren't now? Look at this and the previous thread, they're full of speculation over speculation.

>> No.8937197

>>8937193
Reimu marries, gets pregnant, becomes too old to play danmaku.
~Fin

>> No.8937205

>>8937197
Don't worry, her daughter will take up the mantle.

TOUHOU PROJECT 2: NEXT GENERATIONS.

>> No.8937204

>>8937193
Yeah, unfortunately, it really feels like Touhou might end this time. Everything is appointing this. ZUN can just get Miko, Kanako, Byakuren, Kasen and find other 2 characters can you feel it in your bones? and end the Touhou series with a gran finale. ;_;

>> No.8937208

>>8937205
Best part is that it's written by ZUN's son

>> No.8937207

>>8937193
I can't stop vomiting

>> No.8937209

>>8937179

I don't think so.
it also makes no sense that she identified miko as a great treasure considering she ended up in gensokyo because no one believed she existed, as kanako suggested

so I guess value of the people she identifies has nothing to do with faith

it's also unlikely that miko had any treasure sinse she is a hermit

it's interesting at any rate.

>> No.8937229

>>8937209
Yeah, I know. Her powers are probably more vague than that.

Having heard little leaks here and there, Nazrin's profile is one of the profiles I'm looking forward the most to reading. She also seems to be one of the characters who might turn out to be a different than I expected. So far I feel like I have made pretty good "guesses" about characters' natures, but Nazrin might be different.

Nue is another one I also want to read a lot. Her role in TD has made my impression of her mixed. I didn't see her as the sort of person who'd be so easily attached to someone, or take someone else's side if it didn't directly profit her.

>> No.8937233

Reimu is going to use Fantasy Heaven and destroy all of Gensokyo where the barrier breaks and now Gensokyo youkai have a fight to the death against the real world. Religious factions nothing, now they must team up to fight America or whatever

>> No.8937241

>>8937229
Yes, Nazrin is actually distant from the group, form what I've heard, and I want to have a look at Nue's and Mamizou's friendship, i.e. if they have the "bro" kind of relationship or yuri(!)

>> No.8937240

>>8937233
Coming to a theater near you this summer!

>> No.8937246

>>8937241
Nazrin only really answers to Shou.

>> No.8937252

>Unzan was a typical human-eating mikoshi-nyuudou before he met Ichirin. He decided to stay by her side and protect her for his entire life after she convincingly defeated him
This.... somehow this sounds incredibly epic. I never cared about those two much (in fact I sometimes forgot that Ichirin even exists), but this seems like a really awesome story. Someone should seriously draw this into a manga.

>> No.8937260

>>8937252
How did she beat Unzan? How can anyone beat Unzan?

>> No.8937263

>>8937252
What the hell is the deal with Ichirin, anyway?
It says the she eventually got transformed with youkai because Unzan was constantly with her, how does that work?
Also, what kind of youkai she is?

>> No.8937267

>>8937260
Nuns are badass. Didn't you know that?

>> No.8937275

>>8937241
>yuri
fuck off and die, scum

>> No.8937281

\\Ichri~in//

>> No.8937291

>>8937252
I believed in my heart that one day she would get a backstory.

>> No.8937301

where is my maribel renko's story?

>> No.8937303
File: 467 KB, 480x640, 11599608.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937303

>>8937252
I love Ichirin and reading this made me so happy. I always thought that she can control Unzan because she is stronger than him, instead of her being useless without him/just his hitbox. So yeah, she's fucking awesome.

>> No.8937321

>>8937204
I find it hard to believe that ZUN is making so much money he can afford to ever stop Touhou Project.
He just got married, that probably means kids are going to be coming in the next few years. His wife probably won't be working and children are expensive. He has every reason to keep on making Touhou works.
And probably once ZUN actually has kids of his own and gets some first hand parenting experience, then his characters will start having kids.

>> No.8937330

>>8937263
If you attack people with a youkai, that's kind of like being one yourself.

>> No.8937328

>>8937321
That would completely rape the mind of yurifags. And I pretty much prefer it that way.

>> No.8937341

>>8937321
Adult Reimu and Marisa FTW

>> No.8937350

>>8937321
Riots in the streets, cars being burned, molotov cocktails, etc.

>> No.8937366

>>8937321
I hope he's prepared to having insane otakus kidnapping his wife and raping his daughter,

>> No.8937376

>>8937252
The relationship between Ichirin and Unzan seems to be very, very close. Closer than close. A story about their backstory would be very, very awesome.

>> No.8937381

>>8937366
No rape, just tons and tons of cosplays as Touhous

>> No.8937408

>>8937350
I know what you mean. It's bad enough that he got married.

>> No.8937417

>>8937321
The only REAL danger to the franchise from the changes in his life is that he, rather than stopping the franchise, will make the sell-out that he has for so long resisted and sign a deal with one of the console game manufacturers and make mass market games using the Touhou characters and universe.
He would certainly become a wealthy man that way, but the people who he sold to would have to try and recoup the investment. So there would still be Touhou product for many years- just probably not a kind of Touhou product that most /jp/-ers would approve of.

>> No.8937427

Anyone else kind of irked that he STILL didn't explain if Okuu's third eye is a part of her or just a costume orniment...

>> No.8937428

In terms of the 3 new powers, which ones give the benefits that you would be most interested in?

Kanako's side doesn't seem like it has much to offer. Suwako in particular is interesting, but it looks like she herself isn't really interested in anything at all, and so she mostly just sits around the shrine. They can give blessings, and they can give curses, but that's about it. As long as you don't cross them, there's no reason to take their side.

Byakuren's side has more to offer, what with enlightenment and Nirvana and whatnot. Heck, achieving Nirvana is one of the main two ways of getting into Heaven. Not that I'd want to go to Heaven... And Buddhism is just too peaceful for me.

Last but not least is Miko, who has all the cool stuff with her hermit arts and offering a chance to potentially become immortal (the other of the main 2 ways to get into Heaven, incidentally). Immortality sounds great, and she can apparently create her own dimension with ease using those hermit arts (where do you think she lives?). Not only that, but the dimension in question is connected to pretty much everywhere, so by entering and leaving it, she can get places just about as fast as Yukari can.

Miko's ideals are the least compatible with mine... But if it came down to it, I'd definitely join her side.

>> No.8937441

>>8937428
Kanako & Suwako
Take it relatively easy.

>> No.8937454

>>8937428
byakuren is a youkai lover and doesnt care about humans
>she's strayed from the path of Mahayana Buddhism and possesses demonic power. Most likely she won't be able to enter Nirvana.

hermit = no fun allowed

>> No.8937465

>>8937428
>Byakuren's side has more to offer, what with enlightenment and Nirvana and whatnot.
It's all a scam.

>> No.8937463
File: 188 KB, 708x999, preview0ed818eb1376ce949466b4cdd434829c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937463

>>8937454
Who cares about fun? Living a dangerous life by having to exterminate many youkai and battle shinigami thenselves is way more interesting.

>> No.8937467
File: 349 KB, 700x1133, 42b79f5dd8de464128ecb687d94ddefa.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937467

>>8937417
I can see it now.

Brown and bloom strawberry jelly all over screen regenerating health cover shooter with achievements!

>> No.8937476

>>8937463
that's not what hermits do

>> No.8937474

>>8937428
>Kanako's side doesn't seem like it has much to offer

Electricity

>> No.8937482

>>8937474
Tojiko

>> No.8937486
File: 1.16 MB, 693x848, d694f2e1e807ccbd880074492b5b1752(1).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937486

>While it may be filled with youkai, those youkai are more honest than humans. Just as humans can become hermits and celestials, youkai can become gods and Buddhas.

So a God in Gensokyo is comparable to a Hermit human?

That brought me closer to being with Kanako, but a bit farther down from hearing she is friendly with humans. I always pictured Kanako as a domineering person who would step on me and make me her servant.

>> No.8937494

>>8937454
What do you mean "no fun allowed"? What am I not allowed to do if I become a hermit?

Also, I don't really care about Nirvana anyway, as I already said. But maybe it would be nice to learn magic like what she's got.

>>8937463
I thought they only have to fend off attacks from youkai? Surely they don't need to exterminate them?

As for the shinigami, well fuck them. If someone tries to kill me, I don't care who they are. Of course, it'll be hard to learn the arts necessary to beat them up, but if I can manage it, then there's no problem.

>> No.8937505

>>8937482
Yeah I know on the back of all my appliances it says "120V AC, or thunderbolts from a ghost lady"

>> No.8937514

>>8937428
Really comes down to which one's undergarments you'd rather masturbate with

>> No.8937520

Yea I'll agree being hermits would allow for some shinigami battles every now and then, there would be no business relations-related from Kanako's, nor that too-peaceful life of Byakuren's.

>> No.8937536

>>8937486
Remember that the japanese have gods even for brdiges or mountains. A youkai can achieve divine status if it is worshipped and fairly powerful.

>> No.8937547

>>8937536
When you say "god", you mean kami. A kami can reside in anything.

>> No.8937594

I wonder what the difference is between the lifestyles of hermits who follow Shuugyoku (the hermits described in PMiSS) and the lifestyles of the hermits who follow Taoism.

As far as I know, both get superpowers and live for a long time, and have to fight off shinigami, but I doubt the Taoists have to recite sutras every day.

And hey, even though Seiga has a "bad personality" she didn't become a "wicked hermit" until she started making jiang shi, so it can't be that hard to avoid becoming one of them.

>> No.8937603

Which of the three is more hedonistic?
Who will allow me to just take it easy all day, then when I have troubles will pat my head and tell me its okay?

>> No.8937615
File: 517 KB, 600x835, faction wars.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937615

So, about this whole faction wars, is this more or less correct?:

Buddhists: "Gensokyo is for youkais, humans are only here for preserving youkais."

Shinto: ""Gensokyo is for youkais, but we can improve it for humans as well."

And Taoists are either for a Gensokyo for humans, or an equal Gensokyo, but they are more revolutionary than the other 2 factions? Willing to exterminate the youkais who disagree and such.

>> No.8937616

>>8937603
>then when I have troubles will pat my head and tell me its okay?

How does that solve any problems?

>> No.8937627

>>8937616
My problem would probably be feeling lonely or uncomfortable because of a leg sprain or headache, so it would be for the best if I could lay my head on whomsoever's lap while I have my hair ruffled with until I get better.

>> No.8937628

>>8937615
>youkais
no plural s please. Thank you.

>> No.8937634

>>8937615
The Buddhists do not frown on improving life for humans as well. What they frown on, is the humans who may decide to take over and drive out or exterminate everyone who disagrees with them.

In fact, both Kanako and Byakuren agree that the humans should not have a leader for this reason.

To be honest, Byakuren's philosophy isn't that different from Kanako's, it's just that she has a more "liberal" so to speak perspective on things, and her methods are different.

>> No.8937652

Of all the Buddhists, the Gensokyo gets those Mahayanese heretics.

>> No.8937657

>>8937634
It says somewhere (PMiSS, IN (Keine?) ? ) that the human village is protected by youkai, but wouldn't it be weird if the human village did not have a human leader? A village elder or someone like that. Blindly depending on youkai (and that one shrine maiden) doesn't sound like a good idea.

>> No.8937681

>>8937652
Just like the rest of the world except a couple of countries in Southeast Asia with names that nobody remembers.

That said, Byakuren is a shitty Mahayanist by any standard.

>> No.8937680

>>8937652
Akyuu claims she's Mahayana, but I don't really know. I mean, her brother was Shingon. That's why I don't get it.

Not that it really matters, I guess. Byakuren is a priestess for Bishamonten. The fucking god of War. And she's got the avatar for the guy living with her. And she's got Ichirin as well, who now has one of the most amazing backstories ever. And Murasa was already awesome.

>> No.8937695

>>8937680
Shingon is Mahayana.

Actually, all Japanese (and Chinese, and Korean) Buddhism is Mahayana.

>> No.8937697

>>8937634
Ah, yes, sorry about that. Won't happen again.

>>8937628
>What they frown on, is the humans who may decide to take over and drive out or exterminate everyone who disagrees with them.

To be honest, Byakuren's philosophy isn't that different from Kanako's, it's just that she has a more "liberal" so to speak perspective on things, and her methods are different.

So, what are their opinion on the youkai who harm humans? Should they just be scolded, punished someway, or do these youkai actually deserve to be killed? I understand it might vary on a case by case subject, but are they willing to actually exterminate the most "horrible" of youkai? And would they usually be more kind and forgiving to youkai or humans?

>> No.8937716
File: 252 KB, 525x700, 24895493.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937716

>>8937697
According to the Hakurei shrine maiden, dialogue and discussion are not an option. Hell, even Sanae enters the fray with gusto.

>> No.8937732

>>8937697
>So, what are their opinion on the youkai who harm humans? Should they just be scolded, punished someway, or do these youkai actually deserve to be killed? I understand it might vary on a case by case subject, but are they willing to actually exterminate the most "horrible" of youkai? And would they usually be more kind and forgiving to youkai or humans?

I couldn't tell you that. But it looks like Byakuren's big theme is tolerance for everybody, including all humans. Of course, she is a shitty Mahayanist, but I think she employs Buddhism as a method of promoting peace.

>> No.8937745

Where the hell does people get the confirmation that Byakuren follows Mahayana? Damn, I have always thought she follows Theravada.

>> No.8937752

>>8937745
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Byakuren_Hijiri

Well, if you live in the human village, which is near Myourenji, you should be able to have a good idea of what flavor of Buddhism they follow. So I think that Akyuu's information should be reliable enough, in this case.

>> No.8937771

>Just believing that we're real is enough. In the outside world, they've stopped believing that gods even exist.
>W-well, belief or not, you're right here, aren't you?
>That's not good enough for the outside world. Even if you create a miracle right before their eyes, they'll convince themselves it's an illusion and absolutely refuse to accept that it actually happened. Humans are easily swayed creatures, and that's the latest boom.

Poor Kanako. I really feel sorry for her now. Humans are so shitty sometimes.

>> No.8937797

>However, she's strayed from the path of Mahayana Buddhism (*3)
>3: Which has the dubious idea of saving everyone by helping them escape from suffering.

Forgive me but these sentences seems to suggest that Byakuren does not follow Mahayana and Akyuu also doesn't very fond of that branch of Buddhism.

>> No.8937807

>>8937797
True enough.

>3: Which has the dubious idea of saving everyone by helping them escape from suffering.

I laugh at this every time I read it. Helping everyone escape from suffering is dubious? Is compassion evil now?

>> No.8937800

>>8937797
Akyuu doesn't seem found of anything Byakuren says.

>> No.8937820

>>8937797
Isn't all Buddhism about escaping from suffering?

>> No.8937823

>>8937745
There is no Theravada in Japan (well, maybe some got imported in modern times, I wouldn't know).

>> No.8937845

>>8937820
Mahayanists believe that you've got to help everyone else to escape it.
Theravadins believe that every individual is personally responsible for his own escape.

>> No.8937852

On an unrelated note, does anyone remember whether Kanako actually transported the entire Lake Suwa to Gensokyo? Or was it a different, smaller lake that they transported? Because if Lake Suwa can fit on top of Youkai Mountain, that's... Wow.

>> No.8937869

>>8937807
I actually agree that Mahayana is kind of dubious.

>>8937820
In Theravada, you escape suffering by achieving inner peace. In Mahayana, you must achieve inner peace, die and go to this really nice place in the afterlife before you can be consider free from suffering.

>>8937823
You are not even certain of the statement you are making, friend. But even if you are, I'm sure there are ways to reason around that.

>> No.8937893

>>8937869
>In Mahayana, you must achieve inner peace, die and go to this really nice place in the afterlife before you can be consider free from suffering.
This is incorrect. Especially the "must" part.

>> No.8937904

By the way, if anyone here has a significant amount of knowledge of Mahayana, can you list exactly what taboos Byakuren has broken? I know she's not the best practitioner in the world, but I'm just wondering how bad it is.

>> No.8937902

>>8937869
Sure, there are ways to reason around everything, if you want. Maybe Byakuren is secretly Muslim.

>> No.8937928
File: 32 KB, 181x164, NecoArc_cl.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937928

>new UFO romance
It's beautiful

>> No.8937937

>Living someplace that nobody can bother them is the essence of what a hermit is.

Welp, time to become a hermit!

>> No.8937942

An sligthly unrelated question, does Mahayana Buddhism includes Zen and the other buddhist sects in Japan or not necessarily?

>> No.8937943

>>8937937
"nobody can bother you" means "no internet"

>> No.8937946

>>8937943
A small price to pay, my friend.

>> No.8937947

>>8937937
Of all the things you can be in Gensokyo, I think becoming a hermit is the most interesting.

>> No.8937951

>>8937904
1)She became fearful of death and sought ways to maitain her youth. From buddhist perspective, there is actually nothing wrong with this, as long as this desire is not obsessive and if the motivation is pure (e.g. if you wish to use your long life to continue your practice in order to become enlightened and help all other beings). In Byakuren's case, it appears to be just egoistic attachment and vanity.
2)A Mahayana Buddhist is supposed to love all sentient beings equally, without distinction. Byakuren obviously prefers youkai to humans, again because she was initially attached to them due to life-prolonging selfish reasons. Maybe now she just genuinely loves them, but her disregard of humans is wrong.
3)That incident with Murasa and drowning people seems to be a clear breach of no-killing rule, it being somewhat inderect does not really change anything.
Etc.

>> No.8937955

>>8937893

I cannot figure out my misunderstanding with only those two sentences, anonymous. Please elaborate a bit more.

>>8937902
That's right, anonymous. That's all depend on whether you want to picture Byakuren as someone you can hate or as someone you can love. Do whatever.

>> No.8937957

>>8937947
I want a bandaged right arm too!

>> No.8937958

>>8937942
Yes, it does.

>> No.8937967

I have learned a tonload of religion-based information today. Your explanations and a bit of internet browsing made me realize how awesome you guys are, and how much ZUN actually went to read up on. Thanks guys

>> No.8937988

>>8937955
About going to nice afterlife?
1)In Theravada you will also go to nice afterlife. Actually, according to Theravada it takes a shitload of time to achieve liberation, so even if you practice you still get to be reborn multiple times - presumably as a human or as a god in heaven, because other kinds of rebirth are really bad for practice.
2)In Mahayana, it is said that you can actually achieve liberation in this very lifetime. To do this, you need to practice Esoteric Buddhism, like Tibetan Tantra or Japanese Shingon. Of course, going to a nice place ("Pure Land") after death and getting liberated there is also an option. Buddhism has all kinds of practice for people with different abilities/inclinations.

>> No.8937991
File: 23 KB, 251x251, whatabaka.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8937991

>> No.8937998

>>8937951
Isn't there a buddhist deity that stays in hell despite she being able to leave it, just so she can save people that are in hell?

I thought Byakuren was based after her.

>> No.8938009

>>8937951
>A Mahayana Buddhist is supposed to love all sentient beings equally, without distinction. Byakuren obviously prefers youkai to humans

She thinks youkai are oppressed. Most definitions of neutrality actually suggest you should take the side of the weak.

>That incident with Murasa and drowning people seems to be a clear breach of no-killing rule

Assuming anyone died. Assuming.

>> No.8938015

>>8937998
You probably mean Bodhisattva Ksitigarbha:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ksitigarbha

I never heard that Byakuren was based on him. Are there any hints in canon?

>> No.8938031

>>8937951
Would I be correct in saying that you believe that killing Murasa would not be in violation of a taboo? Yes, she is already dead, but extermination is extermination. This is very discomforting.

Some of this other stuff is just opinion, though. Things like the idea that Byakuren isn't concerned with becoming enlightened and helping all other beings. Sure, initially it was merely out of the desire to escape death, but I think it's obvious that she has changed to some extent since then.

And certainly, with regard to humans I believe that there is some discrimination there currently, but I also have no reason to believe that she has given up on them. It may not be too much of a stretch to say that she hopes to let go of that grudge at some point. Needless to say, such great pain (can you imagine the sheer boredom of being locked in a small place for a thousand years? not to mention the crushing feeling of betrayal, when you actually wanted to help the humans too) surely cannot be erased that easily. At the very least, she does not act on her emotions.

>> No.8938034

>>8938009
It's a matter of attitude. A Buddhist may act to help the oppressed, but actually he is supposed to care for both oppressed and oppressors equally.

>> No.8938040

>>8938031
I would like to add on that Murasa is a sentient being, and according to the Buddhist code you are apparently supposed to love all sentient beings equally. Discrimination against youkai doesn't sound like it would make you a particularly good practitioner.

>> No.8938064

>>8938031
Killing Murasa would also be a violation. If both ways of action have bad consequences, one has to pick one that has less of them.

I never said Byakuren was a villain, or anything.

>> No.8938091

Byakuren could be an anti-hero kind of thing.

>> No.8938138

>Incidentally, I am definitely not interested in immortality. Well, to be honest I used to be.

I had thought of Byakuren as the kind of person who wanted to be immortal... But I guess she changed.

Well, she seems to have a bit of an attitude problem though. She could even be lying there. I guess that even someone like her isn't above having their logic swayed by their emotions.

Then again, being a more worldly person isn't bad. If you're like Miko, no one will be able to relate to you.

I like Miko's idea of life too though:
>Transcending worldly matters, to elegantly live in a world with no worries or anything at all, that's the dream.
That sounds just about... Perfect!

In the end, I think that what I ended up getting from this is that I like all 3 of the new powers equally. They're all awesome.

>> No.8938145

>>8938138
On a side note, I think that Chado's Byakuren from "Yuka vs. Byakuren" is quite close to being canon at this point.

I mean, it's still up to interpretation, but...

>> No.8938172

>>8938009
Byakuren had a no witnesses thing going. At the time of meeting there were other people on the boat.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Minamitsu_Murasa
If the people on that boat survived they would've known that Byakuren was consorting with youkai. It's implied they didn't along with several other boats worth of sailors. Byakuren may not have murdered anybody here, but Murasa sure as fuck has. Letting several people die to save one ghost is also a clear bias towards youkai as well. Byakuren also disregarded the trust of the sailors who came along with her in confidence she would make the seas safer.

>>8938031
Well in the case with ghosts and spirits, the proper extermination method/getting rid of them method is exorcising them and forcing them to the afterlife which isn't really killing just forcing her spirit to do what it was supposed to after dying. And if you argue that it's the same then what about those that are passively let to die?

>>8938040
If one is supposed to love all sentient beings equally then you're kind of screwed when the well being of one conflicts with others. In that case the best to do is to take the action that ensures the well being of many over the few. Letting Murasa go and letting many people drown clearly violates this.

I find it odd how so many people are trying to justify/defend Byakuren's actions so much. Honestly Murasa's profile makes her past rather clear. She empathized with youkai to the point where she abandoned humans. If a clearly powerful being suddenly started siding with the enemy, the only choice left is to oppose it is probably the humans' case here. You might say she's all for co-existence, but her past contradicts that viewpoint.

>> No.8938184

>>8938138
Isn't Byakuren already immortal already? Or at least not affected by age seeing as she was sealed for hundreds of years and came out looking perfectly young.

It kind of misses the point when you say you don't care about something you've already expended effort and achieved it fairly well.

>> No.8938230

>>8938172
I think that the issue here is exactly what you said:
>If one is supposed to love all sentient beings equally then you're kind of screwed when the well being of one conflicts with others.
In that case, you pretty much HAVE to pick a side. Either that, or you pick no side at all, in which case your chances of survival drop very close to 0.

For Byakuren, who does not want her power to be lost, the choice is obvious.

However...
>In that case the best to do is to take the action that ensures the well being of many over the few.
Are you really going to try and say that the idea of weighing the lives of sentient beings is really that simple and clear cut?

Then again, I guess that if you follow the principle of "all sentient beings are equal" then you must impartially assign the same value to all of them, in which case the lives of many must be prioritized of the lives of the few.

I won't try and claim that Byakuren is a hero, by any means. However, I truly and honestly believe that she is a far more compassionate person than those who will just brand people "evil" and "subhuman" merely because they are a threat or because they have done something "wrong."

>> No.8938249

>>8938184
Ageless is definitely not the same as immortality. As you can see in her article, there are those who want her life, or at the very least her power.

If the power of the youkai drops, her power will also drop, and she might even become as weak as your everyday human. If that happens, she will surely die.

Unless of course, she actually is immortal.

>> No.8938269

>>8938230
>For Byakuren, who does not want her power to be lost, the choice is obvious.
This is exactly that kind of wrong motivation.

Here is a relevant quote:
Although non-violence is one of the basic precepts of Buddhism, the Buddha placed significance on one’s intention than the actions. There is a story of how a Buddha in his previous life as the great Tshongpoen (merchant) Norbu Zangpo killed an evil person, Menagdung dung chen who intended to kill 500 merchants. The Buddha had two compassionate intentions. One was to save 500 precious human lives as opposed to one life. The other was to save Menagdung dungchen from accumulating negative karma by killing.

Looks like Byakuren did the opposite thing.

>> No.8938302

>>8938269
And what if you've already accumulated all of that negative karma?

>> No.8938318

>>8938302
Don't let more accumulate I guess. Which isn't what Byakuren obliged by when she let Murasa capsize another boat worth of sailors.

>> No.8938316

>>8938302
You can never accumulate all of negative karma. There are always ways in which you can make your next life even more miserable.

>> No.8938328

>>8938316
No, I mean, what if Menagdungchen had already killed the 500 merchants?

Do you have any idea how many lifetimes of suffering you will be in for if you get dropped into hell? How can it be that killing such a person is considered compassionate?

>> No.8938340

>>8938249
Well at the very least, Byakuren cared about it a lot at one point. However right now she's not very likely to die at the moment having achieved agelessness and immense magical power.

What she says now on the matter is hard to take at face value. One would ponder at what course of action she would take when she is liable to die.

>> No.8938360

>>8938328
He would die anyway, sooner or later.
Of course, if it is possible to reform him, that's nice. But letting him kill another bunch of people does not look like a good starting point.

>> No.8938385

>>8938328
Well then the issue is he going to keep killing? If he's locked up in a jail and is unlikely to commit more murders then the Buddhist would just leave him alone most likely. If he continues with his murders however then he must be stopped.

Byakuren's case is not like the one you described. She had the option of taking down Murasa or letting Murasa kill a boat load of sailors. Even if Murasa already has drowned a metric fuckton worth of sailors that doesn't become a changing factor in Byakuren's situation and how she handled it.

>> No.8938440

>>8938172
>At the time of meeting there were other people on the boat.

At the time of meeting they were already in the sea. Or in some remote safe location. Point being, you don't even actually know. They're completely out of the picture by that point.

>If the people on that boat survived they would've known that Byakuren was consorting with youkai.

Assuming assumptions... It's not like anyone would actually know what she's doing, or question what she's doing after she had, in fact, taken care of the youkai. And even if someone did, all she'd need to say is "part of the exorcism, cool, eh?"

>> No.8938442
File: 509 KB, 1404x2000, 74334ec082dc14100015e216c85528ee.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8938442

...And this is exactly the problem. The issue is not whether to allow him to commit more murders or not. The issue is not how many lives must be sacrificed.

You think it is not a sin for the Yama to make people suffer for thousands upon thousands of lifetimes? I don't care what they've done to deserve it. There is not a single person who can possibly deserve such a thing.

If someone is in such danger, then either help them to reform, or cut them off from the cycle of life and death. For a ghost, the latter is especially simple: just don't let them get caught by the shinigami.

You see, this is the limit of human thinking. They can only think in terms of what is good or bad, positive or negative karma, or whatever the equivalent is.

And in exchange, you throw away all of your compassion.

I am powerless to negotiate with your way of thinking.

>> No.8938456

>>8938440
Dude, Murasa's profile.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Murasa

>―― A few days later, the ship bearing the monk who'd come to defeat her approached.
>There were a few other humans besides the monk on that ship.
>She thought she'd use all her strength to threaten them.
>She thought she'd use all her strength to destroy the monk's Buddhist powers.

>But, contrary to her expectations, the monk was completely defenseless.
>She got no response from her beyond that of a normal human.
>Before she knew it, the ship was sunk, and all of the people on it were flung into the sea.

>> No.8938471

>>8938442
>You think it is not a sin for the Yama to make people suffer for thousands upon thousands of lifetimes?
Yama does not actually decide anything, he/she just declares the result of a person's karma, informing them of their next destination (I don't know about ZUN's Yama of course). Karma itself is an impersonal force like gravity. It is not "just". There is no such thing as deserved suffering in Buddhism.

>> No.8938490

>>8938456
>flung into the sea

Does it say "drowned" to you? Because it does not say "drowned" to me. More importantly, neither does "海に投げ出された".

>> No.8938537

>>8938490
You do realize that chance of survival when being shipwrecked out at sea is nearly nothing even if you can swim? It is also absolutely nothing when you don't even know how to swim. Back in the past, a lot less people knew how to swim. Including sailors.

Also chance of rescue is absolutely nothing since Murasa would capsize any boats that came along anyways.

There's also the no witnesses implication Byakuren had. If any of those sailors did survive then Byakuren would be outed immediately. And there's no knowledge on how long a time there was between Byakuren being found out and when she rescued Murasa. However since it's implied that she was doing this for a while, it's unlikely that right after the Murasa incident was when she was found out.

>> No.8938572
File: 298 B, 65x22, 1325173832922.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8938572

> Kanako:This country is full of misunderstandings about religion, and people who oppose religion. One of the reasons for that is because religions that abuse faith are also spreading. It's an unfortunate matter. Originally religion was something used to support emotional growth. Just like sports players use the latest theories to train their bodies to perfection, to become emotionally rich and feel happiness you need to use theories and morals, which is what religions are for. In Gensokyo just like the outside world, our duty is to make sure people don't become successful yet emotionally immature.

Exactly my thoughts on religion, this book has really made me like Kanako.

Byakuren wanting to protect innocent youkai from unjust persecution is a good cause, but I take issue with her views on humans. I'm probably not saying anything that hasn't been said already, though, and I might very well be wrong, she just gives me a bad vibe.

Miko is awesome, but I think she's too narrowminded.

>> No.8938611

>>8938537
>You do realize that chance of survival when being shipwrecked out at sea is nearly nothing even if you can swim?

Does that statistic take into account having around a powerful magician able to create a motherfucking flying boat seemingly out of thin air?

>Murasa would capsize any boats that came along anyways.

Murasa happened to completely lost interest right after sinking the ship.

>There's also the no witnesses implication Byakuren had.

A~and you're assuming assumptions again.

To not waste time, "saved the youkai behind the scenes" does not actually mean or even imply "killed everyone who could have seen her doing the 'extermination'".

>> No.8938614

>>8938572
>"mystery" emote

maybe you're from here and maybe you're not but i still want to see your papers, hoss

>> No.8938621

Holy crap, never thought Touhou could spark such an insightful debate about Buddhism and teach me more than I needed to know.

I can only assume a religious feud will happen next, spelling doom for Gensokyo with an all out war that will leave nothing but bloodshed until Reimu goheis everyone in the buttocks and shoves feud-dissolving tea down their throats.

>> No.8938632

A translated bit of Miko's profile that I found interesting:
http://pastebin.com/7hmx8G0u

Do you still want to become her disciple?

>> No.8938634
File: 235 KB, 1130x799, 1315719988144.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8938634

>>8938614
I'm not entirely sure what the "mystery" emote is commonly associated with, but I have multiple images of 2hus throwing up, if that is more /jp/-appropriate.

>> No.8938650

>>8938632
Reminds me of the ori from stargate.

>> No.8938709

>>8938632
Doraemon reference. Well played, Akyu. Well played.

>> No.8938720

>>8936978
HOLY WARS PHANTASMAGORIA CONFIRMED FOR TH14

>> No.8938740

>>8938611
You're assuming that the sailors survived when almost everything points to them just dying.

You have no proof they lived and what can currently be determined is this.

They were stuck out at sea without a boat.

There is nothing saying Byakuren kept them safe.

There is nothing saying that a rescue ship came by.

There is nothing saying that they somehow made it out of that situation.

By all implications they died.

>> No.8938765

>>8937120

Yeah, I was pretty surprised too to see that Gensokyo was sealed such a relatively short time ago.

Though, the actual place existed for quite some time before it was sealed.

>> No.8938772

>>8938471
If karma is like gravity, then what the Yama is doing, is like dangling people over an incomprehensibly large cliff and then letting go.

It is canon that people can be removed from the cycle of life and death through several different ways. One of those is to linger around in the world of the living after your death, and never be exorcized. Another is to become immortal. Another is to reach nirvana. Another is to have your soul completely "extinguished" and just die permanently.

When you think about it like that, this Cycle is something that is enforced. It is not something that had to happen. Who is enforcing such a thing? That's what gets me.

And you see, this is why I can't side with the Ministry. Even Eiki, who goes around trying to get people to reform, is someone I can't accept.

>> No.8938899

I was surprised when Miko sided so strongly with the humans.

I mean, it's fine to be pro-human, but being in Gensokyo and being anti-youkai at the same time is kind of stupid. It's clear that she really is new.

>> No.8938920

>>8938899
Doesn't help that she distrust Byakuren horribly (perhaps with good reason).

Hell, she might suspects that the only reason she set up her temple so close to the Human Village for some nefarious deed.

HOWEVER, she has successfully gathered faith and good will from both youkai and humans, so there might be hope I will be mistaken.

>> No.8938951 [DELETED] 

Somehow I ended up translating Miko's entire profile. Here it is, hopefully I didn't make any stupid mistakes:
http://pastebin.com/QF5VTJME

>> No.8938965

>>8938951
...So those are earmuffs?

Well, I guess it wouldn't have made sense for them to be headphones anyway.

Thanks!

>> No.8938971

>>8938951
how about you just post it on the wiki come on

>> No.8938996 [DELETED] 

>>8938971
Oops, I thought you had to be staff to edit, but it looks like you can make an account... deleting my post now, thanks

>> No.8939167

>>8938772
>Another is to have your soul completely "extinguished" and just die permanently.

Is this what happens when Youmu is in a bad mood and cuts some random ghosts?

>> No.8939178

>>8939167
No that's nirvana, weirdly enough.

>> No.8939188
File: 2.02 MB, 800x600, mugen0ia1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939188

>>8939167
Ghosts are lingering thoughts, desires and regrets of the dead, but not the person itself.

Yuyuko's soul, for example, is currently asleep, sealing the Saigyou Ayakashi. She will never reincarnate, but her hungering ghost remains.

>> No.8939191

>>8938899
Perhaps as she adapats herself more to Gensokyo she will drop her more radical stance against youkai. Or not, but that's a possibility.

It's clear, reading the profiles that neither Byakuren, Kanako or Miko are clear-cut good guys, though if I had to choose, Miko seems the best leader, with Kanako following behind. Byakuren seems sketchy to me.

>> No.8939202

>However, she doesn’t seem to think of those disciples as anything more than servants. Which is quite natural; a hermit’s disciples are mere gophers

Do all hermits think like this?

>> No.8939231

>>8939188
So the ghost is separate from the soul? That's strange...

It makes sense, but what generally happens to the soul then? How does this work?

Because in Touhou, I've never heard a mention of it being split like that. When you die, if you were not given the proper rites or if you have too many lingering attachments, your soul remains in this world, and it is tied to the corpse. A ghost that destroys the corpse or makes it inaccessible, is much harder to remove from this world. But if the corpse is still around, you may simply perform the rites on it, and the spirit will pass on.

>>8939202
>*2 Ultimately, hermits only use their power for their own benefit. There’s no need for them to teach people about it.

Well, it's reasonable to think that most of them think like that. Certainly not everyone, but...

>> No.8939236

>>8938951
>In addition, she can read a person’s desires to a certain extent from their manner of speech, expression, gestures, and so on, even if they don’t directly put them into words; it seems that her power of inference is far superior to that of a human’s. In an instant, she can read what a person desires, and the main factor that caused the desire to shape the person. Her power is close to mind reading, but it differs in that while the latter reads a person’s memories and current thoughts, the former reads their disposition and future.

So in theory, doesn't this means that all the things Miko was saying about Byakuren, how her temple is a place of evil and such is true? I'm getting the strong impression that just like Satori, Miko is not someone you can bullshit without her catching onto it easily.

>> No.8939247

>>8939202
Through asceticism and abandoning all contact with people you become a hermit.

A hermit isn't very likely to be naturally benevolent or generous.

Frankly there's little reason to study under someone if you're attempting to become one.

The usual method seems to be finding some texts on the subject then secluding yourself in the appropriate manner while slowly gaining mystic powers.

>> No.8939251

>>8939236
She's the sheer definition of somebody who's used to bullshit. She was a politician.

>> No.8939254

>>8938772
Now you're just being unfair to the yama.

She goes around telling people to what to do and even scares them in order to prevent them from falling into hell. She isn't choosing to punish them because if she refused she would just be replaced by someone else.

Also that only really happens if you decide to reincarnate. If you never cross the river and just continue to wander around (one of Komachis endings in the fighting games comes to mind) you'll never actually fall into hell.

>> No.8939259

>>8939236
Even if that's how it is, things like "evil" and "wicked" are subjective. It merely means that Miko does not appreciate Byakuren's disposition.

>> No.8939256

>>8939247
>Frankly there's little reason to study under someone if you're attempting to become one.

I imagine that studying to be hermit under someone is just to learn the base of the arts needed to be one, otherwise it makes little sense, since being a hermit requires isolation

>> No.8939271
File: 214 KB, 718x1000, 23161461.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939271

>>8939231
IIRC, if the body is destroyed, the soul wanders in Sanzu river (Komachi's workplace) until it can safely move on, it's ghost has been exorcised or whatever remaining task it had was fulfilled.

>> No.8939268

>>8939259
The words she choose to judge Byakuren aren't meaningful, but rather the fact that she sees that Byakuren isn't being entirely honest.

>> No.8939287

>>8939259
I think the Yama's judgement on it is the ''objective'' one.

Basically anything that isn't considered neutral to another being is off the balance.

>> No.8939288

So for someone who's practiced at the games for only a couple months, where's the best place to start for lore. The discussion between the characters don't have much backstory, and the vast amount of reading material available is paralyzing.
Is there some order I should go in? Again, I've only played a couple of the games. But I'm really interested in the Touhou universe.

>> No.8939297

>>8939271
...So the soul cannot leave that place until the ghost leaves the world of the living?

Does that mean Murasa's soul has been trapped on the bank of the Sanzu River for over a thousand years?

>> No.8939303

>>8939297
Correct. "Saving" Murasa might not have been a good idea. She is damned, but for some reason having her desire, her ship, returned to her did not placcate her. There is something missing, probably.

>> No.8939312

>>8939271
>>8939297
I'm lost. What are the Japanese equivalents of "ghost" and "soul" used here?

>> No.8939317

>>8939268
Even without Miko's words, it's not too terribly difficult to see that Byakuren may not be entirely honest with her words in some parts of these discussions. In particular, the parts where she gets rather emotional. At other times, you also get the feeling that she's leaving out information that would have been rather important.

Even so, there is what >>8939251 said. She's a politician, so I doubt mere dishonesty would offend her that greatly. Otherwise, it would be difficult to imagine that she would have been an effective one. Politicians that practice honesty and therefore fail to put up a mask of pretense, are not well liked by humans.

>> No.8939338

>>8939303
I'm sorry, but in order to proceed further I'll need a citation.

Specifically, proof that the soul does indeed remain there while the ghost is here, and that the ghost and the soul are indeed separate.

I do remember reading that the ghost ordinarily ends up on the bank of the Sanzu River after death, but I believe that this is simply what happens if the proper rites are finished or if the spirit is placated.

>>8939312
"Ghost" refers to "Yuurei" or whatever other type of spirit it is that remains (Bourei, Divine spirits, etc. included).

>> No.8939354

>>8939288
That's tough to say, to be honest. All of the works have wonderfully interesting things in them.

About all I know to do is ask what your disposition is. What do you like the most? Perhaps we can guide you to the material that would most interest you, and you could start from there.

Even for me, there are a few things that I have not read. Like the Three Fairies mangas, and Seasonal Dream Vision, and some of the Perfect Memento articles...

>> No.8939352

>>8939288
All the character profiles on the touhou wiki. After that, Perfect Memento in Strict Sense and Bohemian Archive in Red. Check out the translations of Shoot the Bullet and Double Spoiler for additional thoughts on every character. If you're interested in thoughts about some of the spellcards you've seen check out Grimoire of Marisa as well. With those done you should be free to seek out doujins about characters you like. There are canon mangas as well. Inaba is basically just a gag 4koma about life in Eientei. SSiB is overpowered moonbitches, feel free to skip it. Wild and Horned Hermit which is about Kasen and the various three fairies mangas which are mostly about fairy antics plus Marisa and Reimu. As well as Lunatic Cage in Runagate which sheds light on Imperishable Night and Curiosities of Lotus Asia which is mostly musings by Kourin about various things.

Don't use the wikia. You suck if you use the wikia.

>> No.8939353
File: 145 KB, 250x260, hiedanoakyuu_597.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939353

>>8939288
Start with SSiB. Then pick up the 3 fairies manga(all of them) and finish with the artbooks and CiLR. Don't forget the music CDs, they also have small stories.

After that you probably want to read WaHH, it's still ongoing though.

You can skip Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth as these are not 100% canon.

>> No.8939373
File: 676 KB, 768x1024, 0f65c41ebdb06546df25bedd28ca1d16.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939373

I wonder how deep Seiga and Miko's relationship goes rather than the fact that Seiga introduced Tao to her. Seiga's profile indicates that she's not too much of a wonderful person and I'm sure Miko knows this. Being the way Miko is, why is she around someone like Seiga?

>> No.8939387

>>8939352
SSiB does have a number of interesting things in it though.

For example, the nature of spirits. It stated that a spirit can multiply endlessly, similar to how the flame of one candle can light another without ever decreasing in size.

And a bunch of other stuff, like how Kanako is Takeminakata.

>> No.8939408

>>8939247
>>8939256
But is the isolation part really necessary to become a Shikaisen? I can imagine it's vital to become a "normal" hermit, but as far as I understand becoming a Shikaisen is more or less a shortcut.

>> No.8939406

>>8939373
Miko is not that much of a wonderful person either. She's just carefree, usually.

Same for Seiga; All of the hermits are super carefree. Well, that's what hermits are supposed to be like, after all.

At the very least, Akyuu does not believe that Seiga has any real ties with Miko and her crew anymore.

>> No.8939409

Still no leaks from TGA story?
Can anyone confirm there even is one?

>> No.8939416

>>8939288
First come all the games in chronological order. Be sure to read the prologue and epilogue for each game.

After PoFV, read seasonal dream vision.
After StB, read Perfect Memento in Strict Sense and Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red
After MoF, read Touhou Bougetsushou
After SA, read Grimoire of Marisa, then Ibarakasen

Mix in Sangetsusei and Kourindou as you like.

>And a bunch of other stuff, like how Kanako is Takeminakata.
Isn't that whom fanon always calls Kanako's husband?

>> No.8939419

>>8939406
The deal with Seiga is that it's even stated in her profile that she is a particularly annoying hermit.
I think that being kind of a dick comes with being a hermit, but Seiga is even more.

>> No.8939424

>>8939416
We only really know that some god known as "Takeminakata" exists at the Moriya Shrine. He's technically who Kanako was based off, but her name was taken from his wife.

I'm not sure how we're supposed to interpret this.

>> No.8939434

>>8939424
Was this the part where they talked about the large shimenawa at the Moriya shrine?

>> No.8939438

>>8939434
Yes, I think so. It's been a long time since I read it though.

>> No.8939449

>>8939416
>Isn't that whom fanon always calls Kanako's husband?
Wat.

In the real Suwa Taisha shrine, there are exactly two gods.

Look into the legends, and you'll see it corresponds almost perfectly. To start off with, Byakuren's and Kanako's dialogue from SoPM:
>Byakuren~ Speaking of which, Ms. Kanako, you are from Suwa(*8), are you not?
>Kanako~ I'm not, but Sanae and Suwako are. I lived there for a long time, though.

Now, back to those two gods. They are Takeminakata, and Yasakatome. One would ordinarily think that Yasakatome is supposed to be Kanako, but you have to remember that, according to Touhou canon, Kanako stole Suwako's name.

Furthermore, the legend goes that Takeminakata is the one who wasn't originally from the shrine. He got beaten up by an invading kami who had come down from Heaven, and fled to the Suwa Shrine, where he married Yasakatome.

Everything fits together nicely if you think about it like that.

Yes, mythology states that Kanako and Suwako should be married. Well, it's not like it was really ever stated otherwise, but...

>> No.8939458

>>8939424
I think it's just a reference, it's a boss touhou so it had to be a woman character.

Same as the mountain devas, especially Kasen.

>> No.8939477

>>8939449
Different person here, there's a few things I'm not sure I understand... I knew that Takeminakata was more or less Kanako's basis, and that he was the one who defeated the Mishaguji in the real Battle of Suwa. How does Yasakatome come into this? I knew she was his wife, but I', not sure about the rest of the details. I always though Suwako was based of the family of Moreya who controlled the Mishaguji, portrayed as a god in Touhou canon, as a way to give the many curse gods "a face".

>but you have to remember that, according to Touhou canon, Kanako stole Suwako's name.
Do you mean that in the way that Kanako labels herself as the god of Moriya and the Moriya shrine? Because that's the only connection I can make with this statement...

>> No.8939484

>>8939387
I say SSiB is essential if only because of the Scarlet space program

>> No.8939495

>>8939477
>How does Yasakatome come into this? I knew she was his wife, but I', not sure about the rest of the details.
When I looked around for details on Yasakatome, I found nothing at all. It was really sad. Ordinarily you can find something, whether it's on that Shinto Encyclopedia website or some other place...

>Because that's the only connection I can make with this statement...
Kanako stole all of Suwako's faith, by taking on the name "Moriya." But Suwako still does all of the work, what with the divine blessings or curses and all.

Well, I know that it was "Moriya" and not "Yasaka," but... This is how it made sense to me.

>> No.8939516

Why are people calling Byakuren evil when ZUN said that she's a "good person?"

Plus all three of them haven't done anything evil.

>> No.8939518
File: 394 KB, 853x1200, 09.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939518

>Because of her name 'Yasaka' (countless hills), she's been said to be a mountain deity, but she's actually a deity of wind and rain.
-
-
-
>Suwako
>The true god of the Shrine of Moriya(守矢). She is the God of Mountains, and was once the leader of the many gods that lived in the Mountains.
-
>And so, Kanako attained the kingdom of Moriya(洩矢).
>However, the people of Moriya(洩矢) could not forget the fear of their native gods, Mishaguji, and were unable to accept their new god.
>Kanako thought she could not gain the faith of the people, and gave up on making the kingdom hers. Instead, she called forth a new god and combined it with Moriya's(洩矢) god. Within the kingdom, this new god was called Moriya(守矢), but was called by a different name outside of the kingdom. This way, it seemed as if it was ruling the kingdom. Moriya(守矢) is, of course, Moriya(洩矢). And thus Kanako borrowed Suwako's powers, and silently ruled as the God of Mountains.
>The new god that was said to have reigned over the kingdom was a god only in name, existing only to preserve the legend of Yamato. In reality, Suwako continued to rule over the kingdom. Although the gods of the modern world have mostly been replaced by the Yamato Legends, she is still in her original form discreetly gathering faith.

Now piece this together.

>> No.8939524

>>8939518

Suwako confirmed for Big Bad?

>> No.8939523

>>8939495
I see. I have made research about Kanako and Suwako's basis in the past, but I remember that it was a bit hard to make sense out of. When I read your post I got curious to see if there was more I didn't know. As usual with Touhou, the references aren't always direct and simple. Like with TD, for example, both Futo and Tojiko have at least two people they are based of each.

But I think discussing the different approaches to the real historical events is really interesting, because even if it all doesn't go together perfectly it can still give you some ideas of what parts ZUN used as inspiration, and why he decided to make things the way they are.

And yeah, I didn't know (or remember if I did read it) that Yasakatome was enshrined together with her husband. It's interesting that the Suwa Grand Shrine has two gods as well.

>> No.8939527
File: 240 KB, 531x436, aya hmmm....png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939527

>>8939518
Sooo...the fake "Moriya" Kanako created is still outside, gathering faith?

>> No.8939530

>>8939518
>>8939524
I don't understand.

>> No.8939541

>>8939518
>In reality, Suwako continued to rule over the kingdom. Although the gods of the modern world have mostly been replaced by the Yamato Legends, she is still in her original form discreetly gathering faith.

But didn't Kanako say in SoPM that Suwako has no interest (at all) in gathering faith? Or is this referring to the past (unlikely because it says "modern world")?

I mean this quote really makes it look like Suwako's in charge. Hasn't it been confirmed thats she's not? At the very least, she and Kanako are equals (in the sense that neither of them "rules" over the other).

And, I'm pretty sure this is from MoF, right?

>> No.8939554

>>8939541
>And, I'm pretty sure this is from MoF, right
Yes.

>> No.8939561

>>8939288

read perfect memento in a strict sense. then bohemian archive in japanese red. and the other print works and character profiles.
everything is here
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Wiki

>> No.8939586

>>8939518
So Takeminakata no Kami is Suwako and Kanako both? The god of "Moriya(守矢)" created by Kanako to be worshipped in her place, to reassure the faith?

Is that it?

>> No.8939598
File: 663 KB, 1000x1307, pray.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939598

Well Miko seems to be manipulative and selfish, and Kanako threatens with famine.

I think I know who my Touhou Jesus is. As long as I'm not a jerk to innocent youkai girls, I'll be okay.

>> No.8939606

>>8939541
Could just mean that ever since Kanako moved the whole shrine to Gensokyo...

>Who said we're friends?
>She selfishly sent my shrine into Gensokyo...
>Then she shamelessly said, "Oh! Don't worry, it'll be okay".
>That kind of woman is an enemy. An enemy!
>~Reimu Extra

...Suwako is no longer interested in gathering faith and leaves that to Kanako.

>> No.8939605

>>8939598
It's as clear as day that something's off about her. I don't know why would someone would rightfully side with Byakuren after reading this.

>> No.8939625

>>8939598
>>8939605
I would side with Byakuren in an instant, but I'm still somewhat concerned with two things.

The first is that she's a bit too peaceful for my tastes. Love and equality is fine, but there needs to be exciting things too. In fact, if there are no exciting things, it's hard to see the point in bothering to live. Well, she does seem to be tolerant regardless, though.

The second is that her teachings do not promise immortality. It's really a shame. Well, maybe she can teach magic that can grant that, though. Or at least, go a long way toward granting that.

>> No.8939631

>>8939541
It's fine as long as there are at least some people who believe that Suwako exists. Unlike Kanako, Suwako is a god created entirely from belief, so she will completely disappear if even the belief in her existence is lost.

It says "discreetly" so I don't think she gathered very much faith. It seems like, to her, it's fine as long as she doesn't disappear. Though, her Extra stage dialogue has her saying that she's fine with it even if she disappears, too.

But well, maybe in her spare time, she appeared before a small number of humans. Maybe it was that line of descendants, of whom Sanae is the latest.

Well, I don't know. I'm just throwing out theories.

>> No.8939638
File: 51 KB, 297x243, STARE.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939638

>>8939598

Something off? Aside from accidentally cockblocking the Taoists, what has she done so outrageous to be called an "evil overlord?" Nothing. She's a good person. ZUN knows, Earth knows, people know, I know, you know.

>> No.8939643

>>8939606
Wasn't it mentioned in SoPM would be hard for a god like Suwako to make it in Gensoukyou because she was a "native god"?

Kanako moved the Shrine on her own accord. Suddenly Suwako's words make a bit more sense... But, it's still weird, they've known each-other for such a long time. I have a hard time imagining they would have this kind of misunderstanding.

>> No.8939651

>>8939638
Nothing. But I can't help to feel like it's all some sort of facade; that or she isn't very bright.

>> No.8939696

Aren't the SDM newcomers too?

>> No.8939706

>>8939651
There does certainly seem to be some level of facade there. But that's not what bugs me... It's this:

>I wish to save those youkai who do not desire conflict from their undeserved position at the bottom of Gensokyo's society.
>I will lead by example from a high stage.

What about the youkai who aren't super innocent and all...? This looks disturbingly like Chado's Byakuren, who just destroys the pride of the youkai who don't conform to her peaceful philosophy.

>> No.8939701

>>8939598
>>8939625
>>8939638
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYlHjiCGts

>> No.8939704

>>8939605
There's nothing shady about Byakuren. She's a saint, allied with the youkai. This means that when Kisume kills somebody child, she can escape the ensuing pitchfork mob by taking refuge in Byakuren's temple. There, Byakuren will confront the humans saying that there was enough human oppression already and people are better return to their homes. And she'll be sincere about it all the time.

Youkai happiness and human happiness are locked into a zero-sum game. If youkai had their way, humans would spend their nights huddled around the fireplace, fearing the monsters. If humans had their way, youkai would die forgotten. All the shadows you see around Byakuren center on she deciding to make her stand on the youkai's side of the equation.

>> No.8939712

>>8939598
Neither Miko, Kanako nor Byakuren are selfless perfect just kind godly martyrs messiahs and you would do well to acknoweldge that, whoever you choose.

>> No.8939729
File: 487 KB, 667x1000, Roman Catholic.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939729

So the Christian Newcomers will win out in the end?

>> No.8939748

>>8939729
wouldn't touching a bible burn off remilia's skin or something

>> No.8939759

>>8939748

No, that's silly. She's not a traditional vampire. She also puts Catholic Crosses throughout the SDM. She's probably the reason why some Youkai like Rumia know about Jesus.

>> No.8939753

>>8939729
Vampires are allergic to christianism.

>> No.8939756

>>8939748
No. Vampires in Gensokyo do not have that weakness. Not even the weakness to crosses and stuff.

>> No.8939757

>>8939748
That's just ridiculous.

>> No.8939770

>>8939712

Of course, Byakuren is a close second. But Byakuren is a religious martyr and a legitimate saint.

>> No.8939776
File: 562 KB, 800x600, 6827304c5232264331e9bfdc86810ead.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939776

>>8939696
Sorta, but I don't remember when they properly got into gensokyo.

>> No.8939786

>>8939770
And Miko is a saint too.
My point is, don't fool yourself thinking that any of these three are the "good guys". It's just a matter of preference.

>> No.8939798

>>8939712

But...

Byakuren is selfless, perfect, just and a kindly martyr.

>> No.8939812

>>8939786
"Good guys" don't exist. It's always been nothing more than a matter of preference.

I believe that youkai have always been the "good guys," since the very start.

Guess that makes me "evil," huh.

>> No.8939816

>>8939786

I don't really see how Byakuren is a bad guy. She honestly wants quality for both groups even if it's an impossible ideal. I don't even see Kanako nor Miko as bad guys. But I see Byakuren as more of a good guy then the rest.

>> No.8939832

Since there was a talk about Buddhism, I've got a slightly unrelated question. So, I've been trying to wrap my head around it and, as far as I understand, followers of Theravada do not worship any gods (or devas, or whatever they are called), while in Mahayana the Buddhas are worshiped as gods and liberation through faith is considered possible. Did I get it right?

>> No.8939867

Byakuren is no worse a Buddhist than all the Sohei that were roaming around Japan terrorizing the population when she was put to sleep 1000 years ago.
She simply still practices the kind of logic in interpreting their religion that allowed them to function.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dhei

>> No.8939863

>>8939812
>"Good guys" don't exist
This is what I'm trying to tell. But specifically, that clinging to the "Touhou Jesus" idea makes no sense.

And your passive-aggressiveness brings nothing to the discussion.

>>8939816
>I don't really see how Byakuren is a bad guy.
I never said that.

>> No.8939878

>If you shout "Help meee- Mikoemo-n!", perhaps she might hear you with her sharp ears.

( ゚∀゚)o彡゜

>> No.8939875

>>8939816
>>8939812

To repeat the important part I said in >>8939704

Youkai and Humans play in the opposite sides of a zero sum game. The things that improve the humans' lives are the things that make the youkai lives shittier.

The "balance" is what you see in Gensokyo. It's also a completely unnatural state, requiring constant tending (by Yukari, I believe) to not implode.

>> No.8939882

>>8939863

> clinging to the "Touhou Jesus" idea makes no sense.

Why wouldn't it make sense? Nothing dramatic has really been revealed. All the information has always been there.

>> No.8939883

>>8939867
What kind of logic is that?

>> No.8939904

So this is how it feels to have your world crumble with just an uttering of a word by God.

>> No.8939910

>>8939904
Which parts do you dislike in particular?

>> No.8939923
File: 380 KB, 1200x1719, A_01.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939923

>>8939910

This reality has been broken.

>> No.8939930

>>8939923
Kisume?

Lol. I guess so.

Well, given her spell card comments though, I didn't think it was anything new...

>> No.8939936

>>8939904
>>8939923
I knew it was going to be Kisume.
ZUN surely blasted the anuses of Kisume fans all around.

>> No.8939942

>>8939936
Is this still that business with her appearance behind Yukari? Has her profile been translated yet?

>> No.8939946

>>8939942
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Interview

>Kisume... She doesn't really understand what's she's doing, normally. I think of her as pretty brutal though. Words are useless against her; she'd just chop your head off, stick it in her bucket, and return home. The head you see may not even be Kisume's head.

>> No.8939953
File: 82 KB, 629x564, 1118820.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939953

>>8939946
>The head you see may not even be Kisume's head

That's...somewhat terrifying, and doesn't make too much sense either

>> No.8939955

>>8939953
Kisume is the bucket. The head you see is just one of the many it chopped off.

>Well, the head you see really is hers, but she's that sort of unpleasant character.

>> No.8939961

>>8939955
head, and body, mind you. Her portrait has a body.

and where did the shy character go?

>> No.8939963
File: 492 KB, 1500x1600, 6c44995cd2e29f7b17d46ccd7fd6c060.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8939963

>>8939955
>Kisume is the bucket
I feel like we've been here before.

>> No.8939980

Kanako

Miko

Byakuren

In order, who do you prefer.

>> No.8939988

Byakuren

Kanako

Miko

>> No.8939991

>>8939988
no

>> No.8939993

>>8939991
Why not?

>> No.8939994

Kanako > Byakuren > Miko

>> No.8939997

Miko

Kanako

Byakuren

>> No.8940006

>>8939997
This

>> No.8940003

Kanako
Miko
Byakuren

I never liked Byakuren, she's too boring of a character. Kanako looked like the motherly type, and this has made her seem even friendlier in my eyes, so even better. As for Miko, I think she's cute and would let me pat her head or touch her clothes since she loves humans and all, so that's better than Byakuren.

>> No.8940012

Miko just wants to take it easy, so I choose her over anyone.

>> No.8940015
File: 529 KB, 800x600, Youkai Judas.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8940015

Byakuren

Miko

Kanako

>> No.8940019

>>8940003

You kidding me? Byakuren is canonically the motherly type, Kanako is the businessman, and Miko is the politician.

Byakuren wouldn't be too angry if you pat her on the head I assume. Maybe get a bit annoyed.

>> No.8940027

Hakurei>>>>Kanako>Miko>>>>>>>>Byakuren

>> No.8940039

>>8939997
>>8940003
>>8940027

It makes me sad that people hate my favorite 2hu even though she's the most selfless and canonically good person of the three choices.

>> No.8940048

>>8940039
She would put youkai above humans, so screw her.

>> No.8940052

>>8940048

Try a hand at becoming a youkai.

>> No.8940057

>>8940039
Newflash, people have different tastes.

>> No.8940061

>>8940057


What? Tastes have nothing to do with this.

>> No.8940064

>>8940061
I hope you're not serious.

>> No.8940075

>>8940064

So it just depends on "who I like better?"

>> No.8940082

>>8940061
Of course it doesn't, because my opinion is always correct thus disagreeing with it is just plain idiocy.

>> No.8940087

>>8940075
That was the question that was asked in the first place.

>> No.8940086

>>8940057

What the hell are you talking about. Tastes aren't a real reason to hate a character.

>> No.8940091

>>8940086
No one said anything about hating any characters. The question was who do you prefer over whom.

>> No.8940098

>>8940086
Calm down master autist.
First, just because people ranked Byakuren as the worst of the three, it doesn't mean they hate her.

Second, get over it.

Third, if not taste and opinions, what are "real" reasons to dislike a character?

>> No.8940100

>>8940091

Really? It sounds a lot like people are hating on Byakuren.

>> No.8940124

Miko is a manipulative magnificent bastard and being a disciple of her is just another word for being a servant of hers.

Kanako uses terror and cutthroat business tactics to gain faith. As long as your willing to sell your faith, you're in good terms.

Byakuren's only policy, I presume, is not to be evil to youkai.

>> No.8940130

I was reading what's already translated from the symposium proper:
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_1

It's very, uh... meaty, when compared at how stingy ZUN usually is with reliable information. Characters speaking for themselves, without censure? I'm happy.

With that being said, the characters' personalities shine, and it's wonderful. Miko is a god-level politician: First, she candidly states her goals:
>That's right. Humans need a leader to guide them to their hope-filled future. If no one else is qualified then I would certainly...
Then she's rebuked by everybody else at the table and learns from Marisa's example that her actual plans won't gain traction. So, next thing you know, she's saying:
>I think I'd like to live a carefree life without being disturbed.

This is pure genius. She immediately shifted her goal to one that would be popular in Gensokyo.

>> No.8940141

http://msnkkan.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/rust-in-peace.html

The scans of TGA are up.

>> No.8940148

I was reading a little into Ten Desires in the wiki, then I see Yuyuko in TD said "a troublesome individual is about to make a return", does this means she knows Miko??

>> No.8940167

>Oh, we're doing conversions? If so, I'm not going to lose. Switch now and I'll throw in excellent luck on all your fortunes for two months.

I love how Kanako instantly switched to business mode

>> No.8940172

>>8940130 cont.
Up to the translated part, Kanako ends sounding the most reasonable and articulated. This is also perfectly logical. From the three, she was the only one who actually had a choice travelling to Gensokyo, and she's also operating there for years now. So, she'll be the one that's more in control of her plans. Who'd guess that she'd be snake tongued, too?

She keeps insisting on the "let's help both humans and youkai" bullshit, that makes perfect sense when coming from her mouth, because she's neither. So yeah, she's a bit like the weapon-dealer arming both sides of a war.

Byakuren, I find her surprisingly candid, like in the hilarious part where Miko complains about they setting a temple over her mausoleum and Byakuren matter of factly confirming that it was on purpose. I'll insist on my opinion that there's nothing shady about Byakuren. She's a youkai, and already is or is training to be a bodhisatva. She wants to remove the suffering and the ignorance of all beings, starting by the youkai. That these youkai include Kisume-like trolls is irrelevant - she loves them anyway and would die for them.

>> No.8940178

when did 2hu start getting a decent overarching plot

i thought it was just a series of loosely-connected incidents made for no other purpose than introducing new girls in frilly dresses

>> No.8940194

>>8940172

So the real one to look out for is the Touhou Antichrist Miko.

>> No.8940197

>>8940172
Or, being the most experienced in Gensokyo life of the bunch, she realizes that the whole Youkai vs Humans conflict is a fading thing at best.

>> No.8940200

>>8940194
If you're a Youkai, maybe.

>> No.8940208

>>8940197
Yukari and Reimu would tell you otherwise. In fact, if it were to fade entirely, most of the youkai would just disappear.

>> No.8940207

>>8940172
Well yes, Kanako is highly enthusiastic when it comes to gethering as much faith as possible, so she would want to treat both humans and youkai equally, so she could get faith from both sides.

I also agree that Byakuren isn't all that bad as some of you make her out to be, I think she is also trying to promote equality between humans and youkai, favoring a litle mroe on the youkai side at best. I don't know how much she goes out to interact with Gensokyo residents, but I'd think she can be considered a newcomer, who does not fully knows of Gensokyo's ways. Kanako, being more experienced, would know and therefore work with both sides.

>> No.8940215

>>8940208
I'd hesitate to believe someone who's job it is to exterminate youkai (a job she still fails at).

Since when did ALL youkai live off fear?

>> No.8940214

>>8940178
you thought wrong

>> No.8940221

I thought youkai lived off belief of their existence.

Forgotten in real world brings you to Gensokyo. What happens if you are forgotten in Gensokyo?

>> No.8940220

>>8940215
Obviously, all youkai don't live off fear. Neither Kyouko nor Hina do. But despite that, a lot of them still do.

And you forgot Yukari.

>> No.8940218

Christ, I don't even know anymore.

>> No.8940223

>>8940218
What

>> No.8940230
File: 416 KB, 800x903, Youkai Exterminator.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8940230

So the first few hundred years years, Byakuren spent her time angsting over being betrayed by the people she trusted, her human friends and family most likely. The next few hundred years, she got bored of being sad and decided to kick Hell's ass to pass time then forged the coolest motherfucking scroll in the universe?

>> No.8940227

>>8940220
Yukari is a wildcard so trying to predict anything from her is pointless.

and who's to say any of them still live off fear, maybe some do but I imagine the rest have developed themselves enough to be rid of that considering they can't really pray off humans near as much.

>> No.8940226

>>8940221
Then you join Mima, who is busy having an eternal tea party of FOREVER ALONE in her palace, Reimaden.

>> No.8940232

>>8940223
About anything Touhou.

>> No.8940237

>>8940227
>considering they can't really pray off humans near as much
Maybe, but it apparently still does happen, and quite a bit:

>Marisa: By the way, before Gensokyo entered its current form(*4), what was the world like, anyway?
>Miko: Let's see... the topic of youkai and evil spirits came up just about every day. Who had been abducted by them, who had exterminated them and become a hero... those were pretty standard topics for conversation over drinks.
>Byakuren: They sure were.
>Marisa: Not too different from Gensokyo now, huh.
>Miko: That's right, it's no different. That's why someone as old as me can blend in without feeling out of place at all.

>no different

>> No.8940249 [DELETED] 

>>8940237
The relation has the same form but the way it's carried is different now because everything is done through danmaku.

>> No.8940258

>>8940237
The relation has the same form but the way it's conducted is different now because everything is done through danmaku.

>> No.8940268

>>8940258
>everything is done through danmaku

You know, I really wonder where anyone ever got this idea from.

Reimu's article in PMiSS:
>It appears various other rules were also considered, but as the beauty and volume of danmaku especially appealed to youkai and women, they aren't as popular.
Does this sound like a universally used set of rules to you? Let alone being enforced.

I mean, heck. In WaHH, Suika just knocks out everyone at Myourenji without bothering with a single spell card duel, and Reimu's totally cool with it.

Isn't it obvious by now that these are nothing more than terms for a duel? And certainly, you don't have to use them if you don't want to.

>> No.8940272

>>8940148
1) Yuyuko is the overseer of [one of the many possible] afterlife. If there's someone who could sense somebody unnaturally returning to life, it's her.

2) Watercooler talk with shinigami.

>>8940249
Why, yes. Danmaku is the real game-changer. It changes deadly conflict to a fireworks display. Now, what will be the effects of decades/centuries of Danmaku? Yukari has to plan for that.

>> No.8940279

>>8940230
Whoa. What's that from?

>> No.8940287

>>8940230

Sound plausible enough. Though, personally, I don't believe there are any asses to be kick in the section that Byakuren wass sealed. She just pasted the time by indulge in thought and refining magic.

Also, source.

>> No.8940292

>>8940268
>You know, I really wonder where anyone ever got this idea from.
Proably TH6-TH13

>> No.8940299

>>8940287
>>8940279

A doujin that never got scanned. Don't get your hopes up.

>> No.8940304

>>8940299
http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/1051673/

>> No.8940327
File: 214 KB, 500x700, 7791024a2e2c8805f7c0db8432dad9ca.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8940327

>>8934427
The top-tier lunarians were originally humans, but now they are above gods. They have all the power of gods, but none of their limitations (like needing faith to survive).

>>8934431
NOW WE KNOW WHY SHE HURTS HERSELF.

>> No.8940333

>>8940327
Hatate doesn't hurt herself Hata-tan does

Filthy secondary.

>> No.8940347

So sad to find more Hata-tan pics than normal Hatate pics

>> No.8940391

>>8940327
Hatate is just an unremarkable Tengu. There are many other tengu, and they don't hurt themselves because they were not mentioned by Akyuu

>> No.8940407

>>8938740
You're assuming that the sailors died when almost nothing points to them doing so.

You have no proof they died and what can currently be determined is this:

They were not being attacked by Murasa.

There is nothing saying Byakuren didn't keep them safe.

There was a magical flying ship nearby.

There is nothing saying that Byakuren wanted to get rid of them.

By all implications they survived.

>> No.8940446

My reservations about Byakuren are similar to those posed by Akyuu in her profile. Chides humans endlessly and makes blanket statements about their shortcomings, and while that's going on, tons of her supposed youkai "followers" still attack humans and openly act in a manner detrimental to her stated goal. What does she say or do about this? Nothing, just keeps going and lectures about the vices of humans and pretending all youkai are little angels who do no wrong. She just seems very naive or completely ignores the fact that the actions of Youkai have played a large part into the attitudes of humans toward them.

>> No.8940451

>>8937124
I'm throwing money at my monitor but this book isn't coming out. Please help D:

>> No.8940458

So what are Miko and Byakuren's stances on people like Keine and Rinnosuke?

>> No.8940493

>>8940458
I don't think they have hugely interacted with the half-youkai duo yet, but I too would like to know what they think about them

>> No.8940509

>>8939832
Maybe a bit late to answer this? but:
1)Theravada has deities (mostly Indian ones), but they can only help with matters like health, money. etc. They cannot help with liberation. Actually, in Theravada nobody can, not even Buddha - it is entirely up to you.
2)In Mahayana there are worldly deities, which are exactly like what is mentioned above (Touhou examples: Kanako, Suwako, Tenshi, Aki sisters...). Then there are Buddhas, Boddhisattvas, etc.(this is what Byakuren is supposed to become if she is really good) - they can help wit liberation, but just praying is not enough - it is a joint effort, kinda like teacher-student or doctor-patient relationship. Different schools emphasize different aspects: in Pure Land schools faith is most important, in Zen it is not really important, in Tibetan Buddhism it varies from practice to practice. Generally, if a school/practice is aimed for people with low talent/abilities, help from higher beings will be emphasized.

>> No.8940533

>>8940509
>Kanako, Suwako, Aki sisters

Aren't they Shinto gods?

>> No.8940546

>>8940533
Yeah, and? Pretty sure which culture said deities come from is irrevelant in Mahayana.

>> No.8940555

>>8940546
Pretty much.
The same thing even happened with Greek gods in places like Bactria.

>> No.8940562
File: 124 KB, 600x371, 1d9e7b34444c732389bc092592f8e3a6.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8940562

>>8940333
>>8940347
>>8940391
I love you guys, specially the one calling me secondary. I guess I've been owned5lyf or whatever you say.

Hata-tan postings will continue until the mood improves.

>> No.8940566

>>8940230
Actually, it was her who betrayed her race out of selfishness and cowaldry, she apparently changed her desires afterwards however, for she no longer wishes inmortality.

>> No.8940590

>>8940566
I'd avoid taking what she says about not wanting immortally at face value. At the moment she's incredibly unlikely to die due to the agelessness and all the body enhancement magics so it's simply just not a pressing matter at the moment.

I ponder if something suddenly forced Byakuren to choose between her own life and the life of another whether it be youkai or human if she would ever actually consider choosing to save the other instead of herself.

>> No.8940616

>>8940590
Byakuren definitely looks the kind to put others before herself, not considering what she actually thinks

>> No.8940645

>>8940616
Generally yeah, but on the issue of death I wonder if she would keep that ideal.

The threat of death is what made the largest change in her life that turned her towards the path of youkai. It makes me wonder if a true threat to her life at this time would still have such an effect.

>> No.8940651

Byakuren turns out to be a surprisingly realistic character. Nice overall, but she definitely has her biases and there are some skeletons in her cupboard as well.

>> No.8940655

>>8940226
>Reimaden
>Remadan
>Ramadan
Mima is a Muslim, she's going to appear in PHANTASMAGORIA HOLY WAR representing the Muslim faction of Gensokyo

>> No.8940665

>>8940655
Mimamuslim must be her real name.

>> No.8940664

Islam is a religion of violence.

>> No.8940674

>>8940655
>implying ZUN would add filthy western religions to 2hu

If he did he'd just add stereotypical evil Catholic church considering how much he hates the west.

>> No.8940682

>>8940665
No. She must have Mima binti whoever her father name is.

>> No.8940690

>>8940674
*Obligatory Seihou reference

>> No.8940698

>>8940590
I like to believe that she'd die to save a youkai or a human. Even if when saving the human, she snickered in the end, like: "I'm only dying here because you're this pathetic."

Better moral dillema for Byakuren: An out of control streetcar is speeding towards an unsuspecting youkai. Byakuren can't shout to warn the youkai (or hold the streetcar, Superman style) but she can pull a lever to make the streetcar change to a rail where it'd crush an unsuspecting human instead. WHAT WOULD BYAKUREN DO?

Extra credit: now it's the human on the streetcar's original path. WHAT WOULD BYAKUREN DO?

>> No.8940703

>>8940407
Oh, you're going with the Invisible Pink Unicorn defense now?

>> No.8940708

>>8940698
Kill human in both cases.

In a split-second decision the only things that matter are instinct and passion, and those are both dominated by her hatred for humans.

>> No.8940757

>>8940407
They were throw in the sea by Murasa who they had set out to exterminate because she had been sinking the ships, killing people. Only Byakruen appeared on the floating boat, and she took Murasa away. (Asking her to captain it). The humans wouldn't have agreed to go along with the youkai they had set out to exterminate. Byakuren hadn't been exposed as helping youkai until way after this incident. Therefore there couldn't have been any survivors.

Being thrown into the ocean when your ship sinks in the middle of the ocean is a death sentence, especially at these times. Byakuren let them die, not because she hated humans, but because the life of a single youkai is worth more than that a few humans to her.

>> No.8940758

>>8940664
And Mima is violent as fuck. It all fits perfectly. Just look at her defining symbols, crescent moon and star. Ring any bell?

>> No.8940783
File: 128 KB, 439x600, 1318833007944.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8940783

Now that Gensokyo has collected 3 main religion there, It's time for the other 3 Monotheistic ones to rise

>> No.8940788

>>8940758
more reason ZUN will never bring her back

>> No.8940798

Sigh, you people sure are wasting a lot of time arguing endlessly about every little detail of Maribel's dream.

>> No.8940814

>>8939524
I see no one told you to get the fuck out. Correcting that.

>> No.8940819

This whole situation is a bit uncanny to me. It reminds me of this bit from PMiSS:

>That meant that if a new and powerful youkai ever ceased to exist in the outside and passed into Gensokyo, its denizens would be unable to resist if it decided to subjugate them.
Oh my... I think that moment is about to dawn upon Gensokyo... Or maybe it's already happened. This may not just be Akyuu's nonsensical musing after all.

>Of course, there was a plan to avoid this happening, as well. That plan was to have humans and youkai continue to battle each other in mock duels (*5).
Yukari drafted the spell card rule because she's anticipated this shenanigan. It's all Yukari's plot all along!

>> No.8940847

>>8940819
>Yukari drafted the spell card rule because she's anticipated this shenanigan. It's all Yukari's plot all along!

The difference itself is that it's actualy Reimu who drafted and introduce the Spellcard system

>> No.8940853

>>8940847
Reimu introduced and enforced it, but she didn't wrote it. At least, not by herself.

>> No.8940870

>>8940703
I don't know what is that supposed to mean, but given that I'm straight up parodying >>8938740, shouldn't you be saying he's (you are?) doing an Invisible Pink Unicorn accusation instead?

>>8940757
You don't know if they saw what Byakuren was doing. Even if they did, she could have just told them she exorcised the evil spirit and helped it reach nirvana, and then everyone happily comes back to land onboard the magical ship. What reason would anyone have to not believe her? "Your way of exorcising looks suspicious, I can tell from the pixels and from seeing enough exorcisms in my time, I'm staying in the water, fuck you", is that what you think anyone would say? Or do you think she'd rather come back to the land alone and say "Mission successful, but all those people that went with me drowned, sorry."?

>> No.8940893

I had to add nothing to make my point, you have to invent tons of speculation for yours.
"You were looking for this ship, right?
That's why you sunk all of those other ships."

The monk had made the shining ship using her own powers.

"That ship ... ... !
Ah, how nostalgic ... ... but why?"

A youkai like her was much more afraid of spiritual attacks than swords or arrows.
The monk knew this well.

"The ship that brought us here was sunk in a shipwreck.
I've used my powers to make a new ship, but this is a very special ship, so there's no one that can captain it."

The monk extended her hand out to me, into the oceans to which I was bound.

"But you can captain this ship."

And with those words, she was able to leave these cursed oceans behind.

She gave Murasa the ship, and they left the ocean. The humans wouldn't have let Murasa get away. There was no hiding just her letting Murasa come and captain the ship. Humans aren't going to go "oh hey she made friends with the monster, everything is cool" of course they were all swept into the sea by the storm at this point.

Also she has a flying ship, they just didn't return to the same port and everyone thought she died and failed. She lived for hundreds of years so of course she doesn't stay around the same humans.

>> No.8940948

>>8940893
>I had to add nothing to make my point

No, you had to add pretty much everything to make your point. And some of what you added is outright false. (No ships around, eh? What's that thing flying right there?)

>everyone thought she died and failed

Wrong.

>Her youth and her magic made her extremely popular among humans.
>"As long as Byakuren is here, we don't have to fear youkai anymore. We don't need to live in fear of the night anymore."

You can't pretend to be dead and disappear if you are to become "extremely popular among humans".

>> No.8940947

Byakuren and Murasa things aside, does anyone have any idea how Byakuren rounded the other known followers up?

>> No.8940967

>>8940947
Everything about Shou and Naz is in their profiles. Nue joined her during/after UFO. The only unknowns are Ichirin and Kyouko, with the latter probably not being particularly interesting.

>> No.8940979

That Desire Drive... sweet mother of mercy.

>> No.8940997

>>8940967
Ichirin's own backstory sounds epic enough, I would like to see a depiction of the meeting bewteen Byakuren and her

>> No.8941058

>>8940997
Byakuren heard about someone that can control a gigantic cloud that eats people and destroy things for shit and giggle. She then thought to herself, "Now THAT'S my kind of crowd!" and sought her out, and the rest is history.

>> No.8941073

>>8940948
What do you mean I said there were no ships around? Everything until "..leave these cursed oceans behind." Is straight from the profiles.

She never exorcised Murasa she let her captain the ship, she didn't even 'pretend' to do it at that moment.


You said
>They were not being attacked by Murasa.
But
There were a few other humans besides the monk on that ship.
She thought she'd use all her strength to threaten them.
She thought she'd use all her strength to destroy the monk's Buddhist powers.

Before she knew it, the ship was sunk, and all of the people on it were flung into the sea.

>There is nothing saying Byakuren didn't keep them safe.
The monk was floating above the ocean.

It no longer mentions the people like it did at the start. She still couldn't have brought them on board because she is letting Murasa captain the ship. They wouldn't except this. The point of people hating youkai still stands.

>> No.8941096

>>8940227
>they can't really pray off humans near as much

But that's wrong.

They stopped killing and eating humans from Gensokyo. They kidnap and eat people from the outside world instead.

>> No.8941107

>They kidnap and eat people from the outside world
I thought they eat only suicidals.

>> No.8941112

Will we ever find out what god Reimu specifically worships?

>> No.8941118

>>8941073
>What do you mean I said there were no ships around?

I'm referring to the "there is nothing saying the rescue ship came by" part, a sentence which I assume you've admitted ("I had to") to be the author of. Well, what about this?

>The monk had made the shining ship using her own powers.

Meanwhile:

>They were not being attacked by Murasa.

is true, since:

>This discouraged her.
>There was no pride to be taken in defeating someone so powerless.
>As she thought that...

They were not, in fact, being attacked by Murasa after the ship sunk.

As for

>It no longer mentions the people

...well, my point exactly. It no longer mentions them. It does not mean "I can go ahead and assume whatever I wish, that they drowned for example". It means we have no information about them whatsoever.

>> No.8941124

Finally some mod stepped up and changed the thread to something less biased, more relevant, less goofy and overall less hurrr durrr rock. Rock is good it doesn't need to be retarded.

>> No.8941126

So while humans become hermits and then celestials youkai can become gods and Buddhas.

Does that mean youkai can enter Nirvana and Lunar Capital? Sure looks like it.

>> No.8941141

>>8941107
Something about those who "won't be missed," if I recall.

>> No.8941167

>ZUN: That's because the Lunar Capital and the house of a hermit are rather similar. The residents of the Lunar Capital are closer to hermits or celestials than humans.

>Interviewer: Now that you mention it, since there are also gods living on the moon, does that mean that Lunarians really are better?

>ZUN: My thought is that the Lunar Capital is where the highest, noblest gods live - that sort of setting. On the other hand, Gensokyo is where the more friendly, indigenous gods live. I figured that there are probably many different kinds of gods. Eirin is one of them, which is why she didn't interact with the other humans when she moved to Gensokyo.

>Interviewer: That seems to clear up a lot of things.

Oh yes, it does.

This is a rather hilarious conclusion to an argument I had with some other Anon a while ago whether Lunarians are humans or gods. They can be either of them, apparently.

>> No.8941210

>>8941167
but that's wrong

>> No.8941223

>>8941118
>>8941073
Ohh, wait. Wait wait wait wait.

>私達を乗せてきた舟
>私達

Byakuren is speaking in plural while onboard her flying ship. It's past tense, so you could technically explain it away if you wished, but it's still a pretty good indication she's not alone in there.

>> No.8941225

>>8941167

He also mentioned that Dragon Palace is Lunar Capital related, so it's most likely in Lunar Capital.

That means Tenshi and Iku can enter lunarian city whenever they like.

>> No.8941243

>>8941225
But wait, does that mean you can easily go from Heaven to Lunar Capital? Because taking this and the fact that you can just fly up to Heaven into account, was the SSiB rocket even necessary?

>> No.8941253

>>8941118
You're eschewing logic and common sense due to the lack of written evidence about the obvious. You're interpreting things selectively here.

>>8941141
So almost all of /jp/?

>> No.8941252

Is Heaven called 'Heaven' in Gensokyo?
If so, then what is Bhava-Agra?

>> No.8941257
File: 75 KB, 255x270, 1335290833968.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8941257

>>8941243
Ets un idiota

>> No.8941280

>>8941243

It's probably not easy. Maybe you need to go through Dragon Place or something.

>> No.8941296

>>8941167
Well, the Lunar ruler is called Lord Tsukuyomi. It is the name of Shinto moon god, brother of Amaterasu.

>> No.8941312

>>8941296

I bet Touhou Tsukuyomi is a cute girl.

>> No.8941316

>>8941312
I could not find clear references to his/her gender anyway.

>> No.8941436

Koishi's Adventure's interpretation of Byakuren doesn't seem that far off somehow.

>> No.8941459

Well, to sum the update up, Touhou turns out to have a very interesting plot, some really interesting characters and even though we got to know so much about the three factions, there's still amazingly much left up to interpretation.

Why is 2hu so good?

>> No.8941560

>>8941459
Touhou: More than just lolis in frilly dresses and hats!

>> No.8941567

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View/Afterword

Why is this Afterword so good?
I just can't stop reading it.

>> No.8941577

>>8941567
I can see why he left his job.
He wants to make fun game.
So guys, why dont you all start and try to make a fun game as well.

>> No.8941581

>>8941567
DAT AFTERWORD
It gives me a whole lot more inspiration than the last 2-hour-long motivational talk I was forced to go. I'm gonna start worshipping ZUN

>> No.8941586

>>8941567
>Of course, you're all smart players, and you won't take everything they say literally...

Everybody, repeat this mantra every time you read and try to interpret some words said/written/uttered in any way by a Touhou.

>> No.8941648

>>8940141
THANK YOU

I just skimmed it, since I want to read it properly, but it seems like all sorts of shit's going down.

>> No.8941657

SoPM talking about the future of Gensokyo, and TGA talking about Maribel and Renko visiting a Gensokyo-similar place in their dreams? Maribel's 'powers' seem to be growing too...

>> No.8941659

>>8941657
Is it just me or is Touhou getting grimdark?
Even WaHH is starting to get pretty serious business.
Startk contrast to SSiB and Inaba of the moon.

>> No.8941660

>>8941657
I wonder if there will be more stories, one per year, like before?

>> No.8941668

>>8941659
>Stark contrast to SSiB
How? SSiB was probably the most serious manga, and print work? So far, WAHH has been pretty mixed, but the only thing I'd consider "serious" are the scenes with Komachi and Kasen.

>> No.8941670

>>8941659
>grimdark

Stop using that term for fuck's sake, gensokyo is a paradise in comparison to the outside world, its an idyllic meiji-era pocket with magic in the mix, the goings on are nothing completely unexpected.

Come up with a better word please.

>> No.8941671

what

>> No.8941672

>Mari thinks Renko shouldn't try her luck. Renko says it's okay because right now she feels like the main character of a shooting game.
What, because you're like Reimu means you won't be hurt? Also, what's this, like fourth wall or something?

>> No.8941673

>>8941672
>Also, what's this, like fourth wall or something?
i think we hit something

>> No.8941680

>>8941586
this anon is onto something

>> No.8941679

>>8941668
I never felt SSiB to be serious.
They were having fun building rocket, party for the rocket launch and having danmaku battle with the lunarians while Yuyuko just went in and snipe the stuff.
We also get to see some of the events from Inaba of the moon POV.

>> No.8941683

>>8940141

Oh wow. Abandoned space station with weird plants and chimeras drifting above Gensokyo?

SoPM and TGA are shaping up to be the best canon Touhou stuff released to date.

>> No.8941688

>>8941680
And so 90% of discussion was killed off because no one bothered actually thinking about anything

that's not how it works anon, let people interpret it.

>> No.8941695

>>8941659
On WaHH, check out >>8926962

>> No.8941697

>>8941695
>A battle to the death ensues.

No such possibility anon, ZUN would never do such a thing.

>> No.8941705

Alright, excluding the battle to the death, but the process is entirely possible

>> No.8941726

>>8941697
Only when both parties are immortal.

>> No.8941729

>>8941726
are you saying sakuya is immortal?

and its not so much the possibility as whether or not ZUN would even kill off a character.

>> No.8941734

Won't kill it off, just forgotten... ;_;

>> No.8941735

>>8941729
ZUN already killed off a notable main character from the PC98 era.
I wouldnt put it pass him to kill off another one that havent even appear in the game.

>> No.8941737

>>8941567
> You may end up making games for the sake of earning money. That would not be a good thing to happen.

Let's hope that ZUN doesn't lose this belief.

>> No.8941744

>>8941735
>PC98 era

associating that with the windows era is folly at this point you know, and I'm pretty sure this has been gone over many times before.

>> No.8941748

>>8941688
Geeez, I just meant that this way we can avoid all sorts of stupid misunderstandings when people actually take what Touhous say seriously, always?

I can't say I've seen to much of that in this thread though. Just Touhou is all about interpretation and understanding the (sometimes quite complicated) circumstances in order to get the most plausible "reality".

>> No.8941807
File: 900 KB, 1000x1000, umadyoucantspamthisshit.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8941807

>> No.8941879 [DELETED] 

haters gonna hate?
yea
haters gonna hate

>> No.8941993
File: 18 KB, 398x256, 1316916033164.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8941993

>>8940141
Holy shit man, this is awesome.

>> No.8942023

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_6

Oh wow, I know Reimu is a jerk but this is just misleading

>> No.8942046

>>8942023
Is Miko threatening Reimu at the end?

>> No.8942056

Miko is boss. Her way is the way. All hail Miko, I say.

>> No.8942073

>>8942023
Reimu sounds desperate.

>> No.8942082

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_4
>Oh, now that you mention it, it was all your fault that I had to go down there, wasn't it?

There you go, guys. Marisa's SA route, canon.

>> No.8942090

>>8942082
I wasted hours arguing when I could've just cited this. God.

>> No.8942104

>She probably doesn't really want to read anyone's mind. That's why she never leaves the Palace of the Earth Spirits. Even though I got close to her pet, she never even noticed, a real shut-in.
I think we will have Satori replacing Kaguya as the poster girl for NEET, shitposting and blogging thread soon.

>> No.8942103

>I took the god of nuclear fusion that you call the Yatagarasu, and inserted it into a particularly dull Hell Crow. The simpler the holder's brain is, the better able they are to control the great power.

Well, this explains a lot.

>> No.8942106
File: 107 KB, 600x600, 1334639306688.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8942106

>But now she's a youkai who doesn't think anything, like an animal, and who moves around without purpose, like a chemical reaction.

>> No.8942108

>>8942104
tradition is difficult to budge

and stop getting NEET and hikki mixed up.

>> No.8942114
File: 384 KB, 1069x1633, scan0100.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8942114

>>8942103

>> No.8942113

>>8942106
>Normally, if you're not thinking anything you wouldn't be able to do anything either. But she's strolling about everywhere, can have conversations, and is behaving completely true to herself. This proves that she didn't close her mind.
>It's possible that without training she's approached a state close to enlightenment.

>> No.8942118
File: 15 KB, 231x175, 1334168767490.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8942118

>>8942103
I still love her, even if she's a little slow.

>> No.8942120

>>8942114
dat flat chest

>> No.8942128
File: 170 KB, 325x600, futo.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8942128

I never really like the Moriya faction.
After reading this I dislike them even more.
They have easily become my most hated faction in Touhou. Worse than Eientei.

Miko and Futo are such baller in contrast.

>> No.8942125

Her long life and ageless body are also the results of her magic. If you wish to attack her, you should probably aim for times when she's defenseless.

If you can woo her, you can probably get her while she sleeps in your arms.

>> No.8942129

>>8942128
Why do you hate them?

>> No.8942136

>>8942120
She can can be a proper part of the Bakartet now.

>> No.8942132

>>8942129
He hates Eientei as well, so he most likely doesn't have a reason.

>> No.8942143

>>8942129
They are calculative bitches for a bunch of newcomer.
As an analogy, it is like /jp/ where newcomers come and dont lurk and try to shape /jp/ to what they want instead of blending in.

>> No.8942152

>>8942143
So, in short, you're a person whose thoughts are limited by tradition.

>> No.8942159

>>8942152
Enjoy your modern day japan instead of Gensokyo with them in charge.

>> No.8942160

>>8942143
like touhou in old /a/?

>> No.8942164

>>8942143

that's more like what miko is like, though

>> No.8942165

>>8942143

So you hate them because they aren't cute moeblobs and have actual goals and personalities?

>> No.8942171

>>8942165
sorry, one is a mother figure and the other two are moeblobs, sorry for the mistake there, anon

get over yourself and take opinions as opinions

>> No.8942173

>>8942165
He said he likes the taoists. I'm not sure if you are implying that they have no goals and personalities.

>> No.8942169

>>8942143
Good thing we got the janitor/Reimu to teach such people a lesson

>> No.8942177

>>8942159
Sorry, but I think this is something that nobody really understands.

In Gensokyo, nobody is in charge. Absolutely nobody.

The Hakurei are an exception, but they're more like a janitor or a mod than an admin.

>> No.8942188

>>8942171

In case you didn't notice Suwako is the true mastermind behind Moriyas.

And Sanae is a sadist.

>> No.8942190

>>8942188
What does that have to do with my post? I'm not even the one you were replying to before, I'm not going to be a part of your petty argument over opinions.

>> No.8942191

>>8942165
You see.
The Miko faction was actually asking why they have no leader? Besides she is just trying to improve the human quality of life instead of just becoming a zoo exhibition.

The Moriya faction doesnt really give a shit about anyone besides themselves. All they care about is faith, getting power for their ipads and iphones and etc.

>> No.8942202
File: 494 KB, 724x444, 68971346457.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8942202

>Well, ghosts come and go like the wind, after all.

>> No.8942210

>she is just trying to improve the human quality of life

And incidentally, she's the most qualified for the leadership position. Look how convenient that is.

A true politician.

>> No.8942214

>>8942210
Don't be stupid, if you could help others while still gaining a huge amounts of power or money in the process, wouldn't you do it? Everyone wins.

>> No.8942218

why are people arguing about which faction is best when they are all shit?

>> No.8942225

>>8942210
You talk as if Miko is dishonest and lying about her goals.
She may desire power and influence, but that doesn't invalidate her other goals.

>> No.8942252

>>8942214
>>8942225
Uh, no, I'm not saying that's bad. I was merely pointing out it's not exactly how that guy before me phrased it.

>> No.8942253

>>8942188
>Sanae is a sadist.
This bit of fanon so needs to die.

>> No.8942256

>>8942253
You know what needs to die way more than that? The "Sanae is a slut" bullshit.

>> No.8942268

>>8942253
Would be pretty funny if her still-to-be-translated article actually confirmed it.

>> No.8942274

>>8942268
> When she was in the outside world she was a popular with the boys.

>> No.8942277

>>8942256
Couldn't agree more.

But as far as shitty fanon goes, I think the whole "Tenshi is masochist" thing is still unsurpassed. By comparison, Sanae got off lightly.

>> No.8942288

>>8942274
And I am popular with the girls. What's wrong with that?

>> No.8942296

>>8942277
Tsundere alice is by far the most rage-worthy if you're looking for shitty fanon, but all are plenty examples of things that need to disappear.

>> No.8942303

>>8942296
Nothing wrong with it, unless it is horribly exaggerated.

Of course, it is always horribly exaggerated.

>> No.8942302

>>8942253

She loved beating the crap out of weak youkai though.

>> No.8942305
File: 166 KB, 644x536, 1335368466226.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8942305

Mystia and Kyouko confirmed for punks!

>> No.8942319

>>8942256
It will only be stoked higher with >>8942274
Seems like it is done on purpose to perpetuate her slut trait.

>> No.8942324
File: 428 KB, 550x660, 1335708659939.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8942324

Choujuu Gigaku and their midnight "guerilla live" spontainous concerts at random locations in the human village and along the road to Hakurei Shrine

>> No.8942332

"Being popular with the boys" is differentfrom "having sex with the boys at school", but I'm sure people will ignore this to fuel their fantasies anyway.

>> No.8942337

>>8942319
And don't forget the whole "not bound by common sense" thing.
In the end, Sanae is simultaneously depicted as sadistic, slutty and insane. I think fandom just doesn't know when it is time to shut up already.

>> No.8942343

>>8942332
"popular cute girls being gang raped till mindbreaks" is every nerd's wet dream

>> No.8942354 [DELETED] 

"> Unlike the Hakurei Shrine, her business activities are quite popular. It seems she's fine with anything as long as it gets her faith, and she'll propose attractive offers by any means necessary."

Seems like the start for a hentai doujin.

>> No.8942352

>>8942332
You mean, it's wrong to have sex with boys at school?

>> No.8942355

>>8942352
I meant nothing more than what I said in my post.

>> No.8942361

>Unlike the Hakurei Shrine, her business activities are quite popular. It seems she's fine with anything as long as it gets her faith, and she'll propose attractive offers by any means necessary.


Seems like the start for a hentai doujin.

>> No.8942359

>>8942354
When such things begin to look like a start of a hentai doujin, it is time to rethink your life.

>> No.8942364

>>8942128
I've never understood why people hate fictional characters. And if you don't like "calculative bitches" why are you even in the Touhou fandom?

Not to mention you posted a picture of Futo. You did read Tojiko's profile, right?

>> No.8942367

>>8942355
That's a relief.

>> No.8942373

>>8942361
jesus fuck... its like ZUN is supporting the plagued fanons...

>> No.8942379

>>8942361
>>8942274

who are you quoting?

>> No.8942381

Would be funny if the focus changed from "Sanae is a slut!" to, "Kanako is a slut!"

>> No.8942392

>>8942373
He's not. It's all in your head.
Maybe if you stopped reading porn so much you wouldn't think so lowly of others, assuming they are as perverted and tainted as you.

>> No.8942394

>>8942324
God, what an awful translation the wiki has. Even with my nearly inexistent Japanese skills I could probably do better.

>> No.8942395

>>8942361

What are you doing ZUN...

>> No.8942403

>>8942361
But this one is about Kanako, not Sanae.

>> No.8942414
File: 221 KB, 1000x1414, slutsanay.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8942414

>>8942403
pic related

>> No.8942410

>>8942403
And? Kanako will just use Sanae's body to collect faith since she is popular with the boys.

>> No.8942421

stop it you guys
we're having a nice thread here

>> No.8942427

>>8942410
>with the boys
I do not think you thought that cunning plan all the way through.

>> No.8942426

Hey jackasses
Stop letting porn dominate your view on things
There are other things outside rape, cocks and semen too, you know

>> No.8942430

This just in /jp/ reads too much porn.

>> No.8942437

What's up with Futo being an active arsonist?

>> No.8942456

>I get the feeling Gensokyo is going to destroy itself before the energy problem does...
Oh really

>> No.8942464

>Gefun Gefun.
What the hell is this

>> No.8942470

>>8942464
Something like ara ara I take it or just catchphrase like gao, gyafun and etc.

>> No.8942482

>>8942464
Cough-cough maybe?

>> No.8942488

>>8942456
gensokyo confirmed for being destroyed in a great civil war

>> No.8942512

>>8942488
>great civil war

Power plant accident, you mean.

>> No.8942541

Isn't it a bit weird that Miko's introduction doesn't mention her role as Prince of this country known as Japan

or did i just miss it

>> No.8942551

>>8942541
I think she is just based on the prince, not actually him.

>> No.8942565

>>8942551
Then why is she refereed to as the Crown Prince in TD's dialogue? By Futo, at the very least.

And it's been concluded that both Futo and Tojiko were of the royal clans. Why would they follow Miko if she wasn't royalty?

SoPM only mentions her as a "statesman", so maybe you're supposed to piece those things together. At least in Japan, it should be common knowledge, but...

>> No.8942605

>>8942551
I think she is confirmed as historical Prince in Sanae's TD scenario at least.

>> No.8942676

Prince Shotoku slept and woke up as a woman

>> No.8942693

>>8942565
>>8942551
>>8942605
>>8942541
>Prince
Is that supposed to mean that Miko was genderswapped when he came to Gensokyo? Wasn't ever sure if the whole genderswap thing was canon or what. I suppose this might mean the whole "change horrifyiing monsters into cute little girls" thing is also probably true for a bunch of the youkai as well, excluding gods and maybe the lunarians. Maybe I'm just a bit slow on the uptake, but I've never known if these were confirmed or what have you.

>> No.8942715

You know, maybe modern historians simply misinterpret Miko's gender. It's been a lot of time, and details like that might have simply been lost.

>> No.8942728

>>8942715
And even Futo forget her gender because it's been such a long time?

>> No.8942729

>>8942693
No, she wasn't genderswapped. She was just a girl whose title was Crown Prince.

>> No.8942740

The Prince, upon transcending humanity as a hermit, changed his own body and became the little girl.

>> No.8942775

>>8942740
i dont

>> No.8942848

In Touhou, everyone IS and always WAS a girl.
That's all there is to it, please don't think to hard about it.

Some youkai and spirits might technically be genderless, but they identify as female.

>> No.8942853

>Futo used to be a real coward, see, and anyway, she said she was afraid of Buddhist statues, so she would always burn them down and get yelled at.

This makes me wonder what happened between the different clans when she was alive. The Buddhists, the Soga family, must have been awful. Then again, already as a human it's possible Tojiko technically had the power to curse people, so maybe it's not totally unexpected.

>> No.8942859

>>8942853
Wait. How do you burn down a statue?

>> No.8942877

>>8939696

It's fuzzy because of the whole fucked up timeline that Touhou has.

It showed up sometime before 1998, and EoSD takes place in 2003. But just how long ago that was in Gensokyo years is a bit fuzzy.

>> No.8942878

Well... Reimu is certainly correct here.

There shouldn't be anything weird like the idea that humans and youkai will see eye to eye one day. The fact that they cannot see eye to eye is precisely what provides a foundation for the youkai to retain their power.

There also shouldn't be anything weird like laws in Gensokyo. When I saw Byakuren bring that up... I really don't think she quite understands what she's doing.

It would be fine as long as Byakuren understands that she is on the side of the youkai, and not that of the humans. As long as that happens, there shouldn't be any problem.

>> No.8942873

>>8942859
Byakuren says later that she'd build her temple in stone, including statues, to keep them from being burned down (assumably comically). So that would mean that the statues were of some other material. Perhaps wood?

>> No.8942883

>>8942848
This is ridiculous. You think there are no males in Gensokyo?

>Please don't think too hard about it.
So, just be quiet and agree with what you have to say, huh.

>> No.8942881

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Subterranean_Animism/Story/Extra_epilogue

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_4

CONTRADICTION.

Either that, or they both went underground.

>> No.8942893

>>8942848
But that's wrong.

We have Rinnosuke, Genji, Youki, Unzan and the other unnamed characters.

>> No.8942901

>>8942881
I have not yet read part 4 (I'm at part one).
Please cite the relevant parts of both sources so I know what to reply to.
Also read the SA PROlogue if you haven't already.

>> No.8942905

>>8942023
>Are you stupid? Who's gonna protect those laws? Whoever makes them, they'll just write them in a way that benefits themselves, and if they break them they'll just overwhelm with force and get away unpunished.

It's funny because it's true.

>> No.8942925

>>8942901
The epilogue states that Reimu was the one who was made to go underground and the one who went up to the youkai mountain afterwards (extra stage) to talk with Kanako about the whole Utsuho issue.

Part 4 of SoPM states that Marisa went underground.

SA prologue confirms that Reimu did indeed go underground.

>> No.8942930

>>8942883
That's not what I said? I just meant that Touhou has these things that don't make any sense. It can't be made any real sense why all the important characters are all females, right? We know that males exists in Gensoukyou, but we never seem to get any information about males, how males interact with female or in general why males aren't a part of the fauna represented in the games or in the print works.

Rinnosuke is the only exception, but with only one male character we can't seem to make out much about the males' roles in Gensoukyou.

We can only assume that it's a theme the franchise has that isn't supposed to be anything other than a cosmetic choice ZUN made. There is no real explanation to why Miko, for example, is female. That's another choice ZUN also has made, for whatever reason.

I'm sorry if my first post came off as ignorant. I just think it's silly to think hard about it, because there obviously is no deep reason behind it.

>> No.8942929

>>8942905
>>8942023
>So you want to carry out your youkai extermination and create a human-only world. But you truly desire a peace that doesn't require violence, don't you?

D'awww.

>> No.8942940

>>8942925
I thought we already concluded that both went down there in the last thread? The prologue says Yukari sent Reimu-tachi.

This part from the symposium only further confirms this.

>> No.8942943

I thought ZUN said he couldn't have the idea of drawing males.
Like in the UFO interview he said he didn't put Myouren as the last boss because he didn't like an old man being a last boss. It's his own choice I guess.

>> No.8942951

>>8942940
I don't remember.

There was only that one guy who said that every ending in every game was canon, which was wrong due to some contradictions between endings.

>> No.8942964

>>8942930
>It can't be made any real sense why all the important characters are all females, right?
But we can make theories. I personally believe there are two different (in-universe) reasons.
1. As said in Reimu's PMiSS article, the spell card rules are more popular with women.
2. Females have greater magical potential.

At the least, #1 is canon, but for #2 I have no evidence. So, certainly, there is no need for you to accept #2. But, to say that nothing is gained by thinking and discussing theories, would be wrong. It's still interesting, isn't it?

>There is no real explanation to why Miko, for example, is female.

There are many possible reasons, but none of them are confirmed, I guess.

>> No.8942967

>>8942929
Touhou has existed for 16 years yet only now do we get an actual true motive for the MC.

I think ZUN is doing it on purpose seeing as how every game/book she's in appears to be a bit of character development for her, especially WaHH.

>> No.8943010

Reimu, giving some ass attitude aside, is a really kind girl at heart. I think she'd want a peaceful and fun life just like any other teenage girl

>> No.8943017

>>8943010
Pretty much. Its the retarded fanbases fault for misunderstanding Reimu.

>> No.8943038

>>8943010
I think she has moods.

I mean sometimes she's completely cool and doesn't give a fuck about anything despite being in a threatful situation and other times she snaps and goes berserk.

>> No.8943047

>>8942964
>1. As said in Reimu's PMiSS article, the spell card rules are more popular with women.
>At the least, #1 is canon

Danmaku was stated to be more popular with females because of it's beauty, or something similar. This explains why there are no male characters involved with danmaku, and thus don't appear in Touhou games. But ZUN has had many chances to develop Gensoukyou's male population outside of the games. Especially at this point where the games have developed a plot and a number of the bosses aren't just regional youkai with an interest in danmaku, but obvious influences to the power balance in Gensoukyou, the complete lack of prolific male characters is quite striking.

And even if Danmaku is more popular with females;
Would this mean no males at all engage in danmaku play?
Would this mean that no males have a chance to become a prolific, or powerful being enough to be mention, even in a passing, as equal to some of the most influential women?

Perhaps, but realistically it's unlikely. But, the point is, Touhou isn't realistic. Despite referencing actual history, religion and other such things from our world, not just the "real world", but actual reality, Touhou reality appears to very different from ours in this aspect. Because it's fictional, it can be whatever it wants, and at this point we don't have any real "reason" as to why Gensoukyou appears to have all it's influential roles filled by women. We only know that it appears to be that way.

>> No.8943064

>>8943010
>>8943017
Terribly sorry for having a different interpretation than you.

Maybe it's true that deep down, what she wants is peace. However, she is still the regulating force in Gensokyo, and it seems like to me that she is almost programmed to take on that role, down to her very instincts. She treats everyone equally to the point where, even for those people whom she is very close to like Marisa, she will not make a discrimination. She's truly impartial.

In fact, since she does not do very much outside of performing that role, it resembles the idea of simply "not taking unnecessary actions and only doing what you were told to do." Obviously, she doesn't think she's being told to do any of it, and is simply performing her duties, but...

To be honest, it looks like the Hakurei bloodline was specially engineered to create a lineage of moderators who will, without regard for any attachments or personal feelings, step in and restore order whenever it is perceived to be lost.

>> No.8943062

Going by Miko's description, and Nue's backstory I imagine male youkai hunters do it dungeons and dragons style with actual weapons and holy charms, instead of danmaku duels.

>> No.8943075

>>8943047
If Tenma were confirmed to be male, would that change your opinion?

>> No.8943067

>>8943047
I like to think that much more things happen in Gensokyo than just the things we see in games or read in mangas.
That's why I'd like to believe that males are capable of using danmaku too after realizing how important it is in this day and age.They are just not important to incidents whatsoever or too busy leading normal family lifes and supporting their families

>> No.8943085

>>8943075
Opinion? Did I state an opinion?

It would change my view of Gensoukyou a little, if that's what you mean.

>> No.8943091

>>8943047
Well, certainly. However, the very fact that all of the influential roles (as far as we know) seem to be filled with women, gives you the idea that it is a sort of matriarchy.

From there, speculation is still possible. We know that exceptional youkai seem to hold more political power than humans and that humans themselves have no leaders (given part 1 of SoPM), so we can infer that political power is determined by the ideals that the youkai have.

This is where my theory that females have higher magical potential came from: Youkai are widely known to value strength. If there is a correlation of females generally being more powerful than males, then the females may traditionally receive more attention.

However, you're certainly right that Gensokyo does not follow our "common sense." It's different from our world. So, it's not quite so easy to reason about it. But, I still like to try.

>> No.8943134

>>8943010
I'm not sure what is the "peaceful life" supposed to mean. She wouldn't want a life without danmaku, that's for sure. And if we assume danmaku is, in fact, included in a definition of peaceful, then there doesn't seem to be much that she'd want changed in her life, really. So why is she so angry? Is stress getting to her? If so, what's causing it?

>> No.8943157

>>8943091
Perhaps, in (Touhou's) real world, men are believed to be the leading force and being at the top of any activity. Because women will never become any of those any more, the thought ceased to be existent, and therefore brought into Gensokyo, where men lead their own lives and women play in danmaku and start incidents.

>> No.8943187

>>8943064
I think that's what most people who 1cc the games and read the books know of.

Thing is, Reimu is apparently the exception, she's the only Hakurei to actually befriend youkai despite the family's motto of killing every youkai.

Judging by her actions, she's probably just doing her job the same way she was teached, however, she's the one that implemented the spellcard rules which makes all conflicts non-deadly, this pretty much is evidence of what Miko stated. Reimu wants things to stay as they are, so she's against Byakuren's sudden feeling of ruler and law-making. The Hakurei are indeed the moderators of Gensokyo.

Where the hell is Yukari? She's like the representative of Gensokyo and one of the sages is she not? She shares Reimu's patriotism to the point where she encourages Reimu to beat up other youkai, her own species, or maybe she has a grudge against the underground inhabitants.

>> No.8943202

>>8943157
In a way, you could almost say that things in Gensokyo are the opposite of how they are in our world. It seems to have that sort of dualistic perspective. For example, the idea of a land with no overarching government (it would probably be something like anarchy without Reimu there) is something that does not really exist in our world.

I would say that, at the very least, the idea of a true matriarchy may have passed into fantasy as well. We really don't seem to have that sort of thing in our world, despite all of the feminist campaigns.

>> No.8943219
File: 677 KB, 1428x1000, 113d6409aed09a91f86cc35664623855.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8943219

>>8943038
1) Cut some slack to Reimu on account of her being young. Can you guys still remember how teens have radical views and how they can't see the complete picture? She was told she must exterminate the youkai. This is pretty much her identity. She takes that damn seriously when her "incident sense" begins to tingle. What she doesn't realize is that her sense is nowhere as precise as she believes. She wears her role.

2) Also cut her some extra slack for her shitty life. Gensokyo is like a luxury resort for youkai. Think on those fancy gated communities. The rich people inside want to throw wild parties, but because the community owner must comply with some kind of OSHA regulations, she has to employ a guard/firefighter/janitor. This guy's job is to tell the residents to calm the fuck down/put down the fires they start when partying. He also lives in a shitty almost delerict place and is not popular, so he only makes friends with the community freaks.

3) Finally, cut Reimu some slack because an overall impression I get from her, that Miko just confirmed, that if she had a say in her life, she'd not be the hakurei miko at all. It's actually amazing that she's not an emo about it, but usually keeps in high spirits.

Picture related, it's my headcanon Reimu in a good day.

>> No.8943230

>>8943134
Race conflicts happen, Danmaku is just the way in which most of them are solved.

The fact that she implemented the life-saving spellcard rules is one of the ways she wants peace.

Also, she gets annoyed whenever a new incident pops up so it's safe to say she doesn't like having to solve them. Danmaku is used to solve the pettiest of things so it doesn't have to go away, like in CoLA where she and Marisa fought with danmaku just to choose over which kind of sauce they should add to some plate Rinnosuke (or they?) did.

>> No.8943233

>>8943187
It could be that "I won't kill you, I know you won't kill me, but we'll keep attacking anyway since it's fun" train of thought.

>> No.8943232

>>8943187
Is she really the exception? I don't recall reading about that, so do you know where you heard that?

As for Yukari, I think she generally prefers to manipulate things from behind the scenes. Either that, or she's sleeping. Well, knowing her, she could probably have her hand in what's going on even while she's asleep, though...

>> No.8943260

>>8943232
I wonder if Yukari gets Ran to do all of her workm including manipulation behind the scenes?
How close are they in canon? I'm not sure about that.

>> No.8943259

Reimu was really anxious about the possibility of losing her purpose at the end of SoPM. It's her whole identity.

>> No.8943264

>>8943091
My headcanon about this is that Yukari does this on purpose (drawing assertive females closer and assertive males away) to reinforce the barrier. My view is that Gensokyo is the (one of the) little Yin dots inside the white Yang half of reality. Every little thing Yukari can do to increase the "against the common sense" is another brick in Hakurei's wall, if you want. It's not an amazon utopia because things aren't that black and white even in our world. I think Tenma is a guy, but it's like the token guy in a line-up of female figures of power.

>> No.8943269

>>8943219
Reimu's intuition is actually beyond any conception, even Yukari was wrong in IN while Reimu's intuition led them to the right path in Eientei.

It's kind of odd though, it's not actually sure if she uses it all the time seeing IaMP (although it did lead her the right way in the end, that is, if she even used it).

She also has this outcome-probability-prediction that was teached to her by Akyuu, she explains it to Kourin and Marisa in CoLA and she basically can win any kind of gamble-based games.

>> No.8943279

There are probably much more youkai males in Gensokyo's Great Powers, but are all unnamed, or just didn't have the right situation to show up. What I'm thinking is that these guys would probably be gathering in a room and just letting Gensokyo life pass normally until something REALLY bad happens

>> No.8943291
File: 84 KB, 385x382, PMiSS_chuuuroad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8943291

>>8943279
Nothing wrong with taking it easy

>> No.8943289

>>8943269
>She also has this outcome-probability-prediction that was teached to her by Akyuu, she explains it to Kourin and Marisa in CoLA and she basically can win any kind of gamble-based games.
Can I have a link to that? Didn't remember reading that sort of thing.

>> No.8943292

>>8943259
This is getting dangerous! Reimu was never my favorite, but I'm overflowing with moe for her after reading that part 6. I so want to hug her and tell her she'll still be loved no matter what happens with Gensokyo and with her position. ;_;

>> No.8943303
File: 20 KB, 366x214, Eiki and Reimu sigils.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8943303

What embodies the sigil from the right ( Hakurei ) and the one from the left( Eiki )? before talking about Reimu's role think about it.

>> No.8943309

>>8943260
Ran says it's torture, animal cruelty etc, if I remember correctly.

There's also the scene in BAiJR where Yukari is violently kicking Ran in the gut while the latter is on the floor due to not respecting her master.

Yukari's profiles state that Reimu is the only one that can stand her.

>> No.8943318

>>8943292
Reimu's one of my favorites because of her in-game attitude, and now has moved up from the ranks because of that part. Reimu needs some love seriously, don't stop loving because main character is too commonly loved and whatnot

>> No.8943328

>>8943264
This is actually something I've thought about, and it's very interesting to see others with this same idea. Same for Tenma: I thought that he might even have a sort of complex about being one of the only guys in power.

>>8943269
>Reimu's intuition is actually beyond any conception
This is another thing I wanted to put forward: Her intuition is so ridiculous that you can't really explain it by just saying that she's lucky. She definitely has a very special sort of "sixth sense."

One of the theories I came up with, is that, being a Hakurei, she's pretty much tied to the existence of Gensokyo itself, and therefore she's able to "sense" disturbances within it.

>> No.8943323

>>8943309
>Ran says it's torture, animal cruelty etc, if I remember correctly.
That was Aya

>Yukari's profiles state that Reimu is the only one that can stand her.
Yuyuko? Suika? Youmu?

>> No.8943331

>>8943309
>violently kicking Ran
What! Fucking Yukari feel all my raeg you'd better be glad you're fictional

>> No.8943334

>>8943289
Uh, can't remember the number of the chapter but I do remember the cover. Reimu is looking smuggy while Marisa looks angry at the table, I think it was dice-playing.

I believe it's one of the last chapters, if not the last.

>> No.8943345

>>8943303
Both of these embody the concept of balance. Is that what you mean?

>> No.8943363

>>8943323
No, I'm talking outside of Baijr, I'm pretty sure Ran complained at some point in some other priht work, can't remember where.

>> No.8943375

>>8943309
She only hit her with her parasol, come on.

>> No.8943380

>>8943345
Justice is not balance.

Some of you trace her as judge like Eiki rather than the immature mother trying to discipline her children she is.

>> No.8943424

>>8943187
>she's the only Hakurei to actually befriend youkai despite the family's motto of killing every youkai

We can tell from all those other Hakurei mentioned in canon, eh?

>She shares Reimu's patriotism to the point where she encourages Reimu to beat up other youkai, her own species

More like she recognizes Reimu's positive role in the greater scheme of things.

The catch being, it appears to be her scheme from start to finish.

>>8943259
>purpose

I'm afraid it's more mundane than that. She was worried about losing her job.

Reimu doesn't even seem to realize what her actual position, much less purpose, is.

>> No.8943433

>>8943303
Are you suggesting that:

Eiki's Sigil: Justice. There is only right and wrong
Reimu's Sigil: Yin and Yang. There is always a polar opposite of something and it lives in harmony

>> No.8943471

Miko was such a badass, questioning Reimu like that.

There have only been a few people so far that have managed to boss Reimu around (Yukari, Kasen) but even those have never questioned her on such a intimate level.

I don't know, that was just really cool.

>> No.8943535

>>8943424
But Reimu doesn't win a penny from solving incidents. Yet she keeps solving them, taking care of the shrine and doing ceremonies despite there being nobody around to tell her to do so while never gaining anything in return.

Hence her aforementioned actions and intentions, it's a common girl trapped in the husk of life-purpose duty.

And yes, Aya says in her Hakurei Shrine article that the only reason the youkai gather on the shrine all of a sudden is because of Reimu's personality.

There was also something about previous Hakurei shrine maidens but I can't remember in which book it is.

Yukari's profile states that she loves Gensokyo more than anyone else so that's patriotism I guess.

>> No.8943531

>>8943380
>immature mother trying to discipline her children she is

Puppy sheepdog would probably be a better metaphor, for numerous reasons.

>> No.8943558

>>8943424
Reimu's job is her whole life

>> No.8943586

>>8943535
>But Reimu doesn't win a penny from solving incidents.
Reimu's PMiSS article states that she makes a living off of solving incidents, because she can't expect to live off of offerings.

>> No.8943692

>>8943535
Incidents are not the only time Reimu is working. There are other, mundane supernatural problems that she's employed to fix. They just don't usually show up in the stories because they're, well, mundane. And this supposedly does bring her money. Not much, seemingly just enough to get by.

You may think of it as tragic, but only to the extent that any child being destined to inherit a family business in historical societies is. Reimu largely doesn't even seem to realize the role she's playing is in any way important. It's just her job, and she's doing it.

Yukari pretty much engineered Gensokyo the way it is now. Calling it patriotism is a misunderstanding, not to mention a huge understatement. We don't know her exact goals, but they seem to be bigger than simply a well-being of one small landlocked nation. It's just as likely that Gensokyo is just a mean to an unspecified end for her.

>> No.8943713
File: 560 KB, 257x192, rage.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8943713

What really irks me is ZUN continuing to have characters spout this absurdity of "whatever passes into fantasy in the outside world comes to Gensokyo". I know he likes to think of his little girl paradise as being the global collective unconscious, instead of just a pocket universe where monsters fight each other, but seriously, that description is completely retarded. If things that became fantasy all ended up in Gensokyo they'd have the god damn fucking Avro Arrow, the Concorde, Nazi UFOs, Kamen Riders, Imperial Japan, the whole shebang.

>> No.8943726

>>8943713
>Avro Arrow
Do it ZUN.

>> No.8943728

>>8943713
>global collective unconscious

Come on. You either misunderstood something or just made shit up right now.

>> No.8943742

>>8943713
I'd like to say that Gensokyo is probably not the only place of fantasy, where youkai hide out and largely just do their own thing.

After all, Gensokyo isn't big enough to hold absolutely every fantasy existence... It couldn't possibly be place where all of them go.

>> No.8943743
File: 162 KB, 811x1000, 4cca19408b911e282d71ab2c015ee1ec.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8943743

Why is she so perfect?

>> No.8943749

>>8943692
>Reimu largely doesn't even seem to realize the role she's playing is in any way important.
Not true. She's said enough to tell she's deeply aware of how Gensokyo works.

>> No.8943751

>>8943743
I like the cut of her jib.

>> No.8943757

>>8943743
Because she's a xenophobe like Byakuren Youkai-Lover, but she loves my species.

>> No.8943769

>>8943743
Beloved Miko.

>> No.8943780

>>8943743
Miko is really cool. I feel like ZUN really used this opportunity well to get us to know her. I feel like he really knows what he's doing. She's had less time than the others, but I feel like I know her really well now. In that sense, she as a character stands out in this book.

But, regardless, that's not to say that Byakuren and Kanako aren't great too, I really think they are equally interesting, and reading their conversations feels emotionally fulfilling and intellectually stimulating.

Indeed, why is Touhou so good?

>> No.8943784

>>8943751
You like her sideboob you mean.

>> No.8943804

>>8943742
I don't mind the idea of a paradise for ancient fantasy, but to make it like a mechanism of the world where stuff ends up is just silly.

>> No.8943917 [DELETED] 
File: 74 KB, 370x964, 1329346899218.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8943917

I can't take it easy with this fucking sticky up.

>> No.8944267
File: 332 KB, 853x1000, fec4c2886a41c062c0a9203aebb43679.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8944267

>>8943743
She's the best.
She also has Futo as her companion, which makes her even better.

Taoism 4 lyfe

>> No.8944309
File: 145 KB, 1024x768, 26866619.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8944309

It begins.

>> No.8944339

I'm not sure what to think about Seiga. I don't feel much. But I like ghost legs and she helps make them more motley, which is critical in a good group. The loss of Seiga and Yoshika is a shame.

>> No.8944344

>>8944339
I mean Tojiko of course

>> No.8944404

>>8944344
I personally like her very much. I like many of the TD characters, but she's probably become my favorite. I found her intriguing at first because we didn't know much about her, and then she grew on me.

So far I enjoy her rather common portrayal in fanworks as someone sensible, but with a bad temper and a rough personality. I am very curious to read her profile as it gets translated, to see what sort of character ZUN chooses to develop her into.

>> No.8944536

I love Byakuren sooooo much. She's so fucking cute.

>> No.8944576

>>8944536

Which part?

>> No.8944584

>>8944576
I really loved her response to how she would save the worse off youkai... but obviously, the sake part took the cake. It was just wayy too cute.

>> No.8944594

What is this warm feeling I'm getting, each and every time I read a line from this book?

Is this what they call happiness?

>> No.8944600
File: 217 KB, 555x555, lamb of god.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8944600

>>8944584

Of course, she's the Lamb of ZUN after all.

>> No.8944634

>>8944309
KILL THEM ALL, FUTO, KILL THEM ALL WITH FIRE

>> No.8944639

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_4
Huh, the last part of this rather intriguing.

Youkai have little sense of self and if a vengeful spirit possesses them they're very likely to be completely overwritten by the possessing spirit.

This is rather terrifying.

If your favorite touhou is a youkai they can be posessed by a vengeful spirit and completely be lost forever after a spirit has possessed them.

And vengeful spirits are apparently all sinners so there's a chance of the spirit being a murderer or a rapist.

Imagine, your favorite youkai touhou has been possessed by the vengeful spirit of a serial rapist/murderer. Whoever that touhou was is gone now and all that would remain is a criminal plus the body that is used as a shell.

>> No.8944642

>>8944584
I like the part where she was teased by Kanako and Miko for not drinking sake for some reason

>> No.8944647

>>8944639
Maybe Mima possessed one of the youkai, we never know

>> No.8944650

>>8944639
Also, apparently Yuugi invites Marisa to drink often.

Marisa apparently obliges.

>> No.8944658

>>8944647
if that actually happens, then Mima will be no longer a vengeful spirit, but officially a youkai.

MY BONES.

>> No.8944662

>>8944650
I was just reading that. I love seeing Yuugi having such a connection. Kanako is killing me (in a good, laughing way). She's absolutely amazing.

Her and Marisa get along really well~

I really didn't believe these conversations would be THIS good.

>> No.8944663

>>8944639
Mima's an evil spirit right? Who knows who she was before hand.

>> No.8944673

>>8943713
From what I understand, it doesn't work that why. Kamen Riders and things along those lines never actually existed. Youkai actually do exist in the games and whatnot, it's just people outside the border started to lose belief in them. They have to have actually existed at one point or another, they people started firmly denying their existence for whatever reason. At least, that's what I think, and the thought process I use for my head-canon.

>> No.8944682
File: 497 KB, 722x570, 41d7add02b2ffc3a6f476493c83bf55f.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8944682

>>8944650
>>8944662
This gives me a funny thought where Marisa and Yuugi are drinking together and hanging out and outside the window Parsee is peeking inside staring angrily and jealously and then is surprised when she notices Alice right next to her.

Also has anybody else ever felt that the dynamic between MarisaxAlice and YuugixParsee was similar?

>> No.8944695

>>8944682
>>8944682

This is a sacred place. Take your secondary ass and go back to Danbooru/Pooshlmr. Only canon and bromance are allowed here.

>> No.8944700

>>8944682
Seeing MarisxAlice is one of the worst pairing. No.

>> No.8944704

>>8944695
>bromance

You're worse than him.

>> No.8944708

>>8944704
>>8944700
You both suck.

>> No.8944706
File: 96 KB, 486x418, Dark Knight.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8944706

>>8944682

>Thinks Yuugi even knows Parsee or has ever met Parsee

Get the fuck out of here.

>> No.8944727

Why does Reimu have to ruin everything?

Does she even fun? Ever?

>> No.8944737

>>8944727
She's destitute and the only people that come visit her destitute shrine are youkai she finds annoying and Marisa. Fairies also like playing pranks on her.

Think of her as like that old man stereotype who lives alone and shouts "get off my lawn!" to pesky kids(fairies). And when something in the neighborhood happens, suddenly brings out a shotgun to deal with it with unnerving efficiency.

>> No.8944743
File: 38 KB, 300x218, 1273297639583.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8944743

so when is this getting translated? I really want to read this but I cant into moon.

>> No.8944751

>>8944737
>>8944727
This is so wrong I don't even know.
Sounds like the work of typical Reimu haters. Its people like you who are the reason why people know so little about Reimu.

>> No.8944761

>>8944751
Then tell us what she is like in several paragraphs please.

>> No.8944774

>>8944751
Be sure to include how, in the end, Reimu doesn't just ruins everyone's fun.

>> No.8944776
File: 650 KB, 940x974, reitaisai catalog cover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8944776

>>8944751
Lets just ignore the Reimu haters.

>> No.8944866

>>8944737
Except said old man hold up little children with the shitgun demanding information from them about something they don't even know about, and then he shoots them in the foor when he doesn't get the information he wanted. And in several cases, the reason he brought out a shotgun were because of stupid, and arguably fun things, like because the flower girl was in town at the wrong time of the year, and she was selling strange and exotic flowers instead of the usual boring shit, and everyone in the neighborhood was abit excited because of it. See what I'm getting at? On the other hand though, there was the one time he almost single-handedly apprehended a woman who was threatening to blow up the whole neighborhood with a high-power bomb she actually had. All-in-all, the old man is strict douchbag who happens to have a gun, and he really only got lucky with that one time being an actual threat, as he would've brought his gun, screamed at everyone, and shot a few dozen people in the foot even if there was nothing wrong and a famlily has just moved into the neighborhood. Oh wait, that actually did happen one time.

>> No.8944954

>>8944866
lern2tipe

>> No.8944973 [DELETED] 

/mu/

>> No.8944981

>>8944866
>>8944954
>shitgun
>foor
>were
>famlily
It could've been worse, I suppose. He typed too fast maybe? I'd like to think the contents of the post made up for the typo's and gramatical errors though, I did smile.

>> No.8944997

I don`t really like Reimu, but you know, as the shrine maiden, it's HER job to deal with the problems of Gensokyo. For example, on EoSD, it was VITAL for her to do something about the incident, or else the mist would go to the outside world and everything would be fucked. On PCB, the problem about the cherry blossoms was huge too, and Yukari was supposed to deal with it, but she's lazy and sleeps everyday. On IN and SA, she was literally dragged to deal with the problems of Gensokyo by Yukari. Now for MoF, it wasn't really a problem, she just wanted to beat Kanako because she was stealing her faith. On UFO, assuming her route was the canon one, she had to deal with breaking the seal of Byakuren, and that was in one way or another, positive ( or negative, if you prefer the taoism side). On TD, she literally had zero reasons and she doing anything or not wouldn't change the story, because Miko was naturally ressurecting. The only problem about her is how she always want to beat youkai, but remember, if humans don't beat youkai, the balance of gensokyo will end.

>> No.8945065

>>8944997
>TD
The problem wasn't Miko resurrecting, it is her resurrection process that has brought up tons of spirits flying around, so it became an incident. She then headed to Hakugyoukurou to confront Yuyuko, who pointed her in the right direction, so Miko is still the culprit of the incident.

>> No.8945081 [DELETED] 

>>8941807
Anonymous Wed May 02 03:44:18 2012 No.8944599 [View]

Nocturnes LN Magazine General

Download link for first issue
http://www.nocturnesmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/NocturnesWinter2012.pdf

IRC is #nocturne-magazine at rizon.net
http://www.mibbit.com/#nocturne-magazine@irc.rizon.net
If you don't know how to IRC.

ABOUT US
NOCTURNES MAGAZINE is a quarterly Light Novel magazine with the goal of providing a platform of collaboration between artists and writers.
Nocturnes began as a bunch of threads on /jp/ with the idea of creating a Light Novel magazine. It has since then evolved into what you see today while still maintaining the same drive the original threads had.

>> No.8945137

I didn't notice Sanae's article was done. Apparently her job is collecting faith in the human village.

>> No.8945195

>>8945137
Obligatory implication that she does so by sucking dicks.

>> No.8945245

It's mentioned a few times that Kanako gets faith from the Tengu, but this seems odd to me. If youkai can get faith or whatever other emotion or belief they need from other youkai, then why are humans even in Gensokyo?

>> No.8945264

>>8945245
As a god Kanako can get faith from humans and youkai. But youkai themselves are born/feed off of the fears and emotions of humans. Youkai need the humans.

Byakuren of course says that humans exist purely for the youkai, which if you think of gensokyou as a youkai preserve is true, but rather harsh.

>> No.8945373

Fun fact: Akyuu is of legal age as of this year.

>> No.8945400

ZUN, please do more of these symposiums.

>> No.8945426

Reimu is such a jerk. Well, that just confirms my previous impression of her.
Bonus points to Miko for trolling her.

>> No.8945480

>Shou Toramaru? She certainly is different from the other youkai. Actually, in the beginning she was just a tiger.
>Just something like a tiger anyway. As far as I know, tigers have never lived in Japan. Back when scholarship was coming in from the continent, the fact that an animal called a tiger existed was known only through words. Everyone was wondering what they looked like, and as a result their imaginations gave birth to Shou.
>But she wasn't like the named youkai. It wouldn't have been strange for her to disappear at any moment. But when Lord Bishamonten and I asked her to guard our temple in our absence, her existence became unshakeable.

Whoa.

This is big for many reasons. Youkai are a product of human imagination, that's now confirmed. Youkai have to achieve identity/individuality to survive. Does that mean they're like forces of nature before that? Basically memes given shape?

>> No.8945492

>>8945480
So, I guess they are similar to Gods in the sense that they are both driven to existence by the human mind.

>> No.8945506

>>8945492
>they are similar to Gods

ZUN's been taking this to the extreme recently. He calls gods youkai (Hina), youkai gods (Kogasa), and then, of course, we have an actual youkai turned god (Shou). I guess they're literally the same, and whether they live off human fear or faith is now the sole distinction.

>> No.8945671

>>8945506
Hina is more youkai than god as she runs off of curses rather than faith. Kogasa isn't really called a god, 神 kami can just like "spirits" as in they can exist in everything. If it's worshiped it can become a god. Kogasa was thrown out so it developed into a youkai.

Translations on the articles are still progressing/being edited. Today errors were fixed in Kanako's and Koishi's that had been giving completely wrong ideas.

>> No.8945685

>>8945506
Kami is "god" but not in the sense of the divine. Youkai is a supernatural being. There are 8 thousand (code word for infinite) kami ranging from major to minor, Kami can be Youkai and the opposite is true. Kami is a horribly vague term though, although the more modern you get, the more humanized them become. Youkai are often specific sorts of "generic" creatures, kappa, tengu, oni, kitzune, tanuki etc.

Basically don't concern yourself about any differences between

>> No.8945699

>>8945671
You don't even need to be worshiped to be kami. Kami is something like awe-inspiring and inherently commands respect regardless of scale or importance.

Not being worshiped does not make something not kami, going by traditional stories in the Nihon Shoki, Kojiki and outher sources of folk lore. Now does the act of finding a kami and worshiping it transform them into a kami. Kami are more like "those worthy of being worshiped"

>> No.8945716

>>8945699
Nor*

And I'm well aware of humans becoming kami, but there are several stories where the ghost of a human is considered a kami when they have control over some aspect of nature or being, but they are only worshiped after exercising their powers. In other words they already became kami before they were worshiped, and they did not need to be worshiped to become kami. People in life trying to become kami were generally people who were important and thought themselves worthy of worship.

Of course prayers and offerings are good for kami, but worship isn't what defines a kami.

>> No.8945723

Speaking of kami, is Eirin a kami? I saw that in the ZUN interview.

>> No.8945731

i can't believe he named it something starting with "trojan."

>> No.8945738

ITT: We try to attach our western notions of godhood and non-godhood and argue about what Zun really meant when he just says kami. No wonder he hates the Western fanbase.

>> No.8945763

>>8945699
>>8945716
Then, would it be correct to say that youkai also do not need to be feared?

Also, at the very least, Sanae's article says this:
>a divine spirit builds up strength through means of gathering faith
"Divine Spirit" equates to "Kami" right? It seems it also applies to Arahitogami...

At any rate, Suwako is a special case. She was created by faith from the start, so if all faith in her is gone, she will disappear.

>> No.8945791

>>8945763
Youkai do not need to be feared. If I recall correctly there are a few stories about benevolent fox spirits who count as youkai, and the servants of kami are often youkai. Youkai is much easier to define than kami, simply being a supernatural being usually with supernatural powers. A fox is not a youkai, but a fox that can transform is a youkai. A human with supernatural abilities (not magical powers or something a person can use, but something much more integral and vital) and generally monstrous features is a youkai. A tengu is a youkai etc.

I'm not sure that Suwako would completely disappear, but she could fade into being an extremely minor kami. I suppose with the way worship works to increase the powers of a kami, by worshiping something you can give it power and therefore make it worthy of being worshiped. But given the nature of other kami, the key feature is this worthiness.

>> No.8945828

>>8945791
The reason why people who use magic are not youkai is such:

Magic is a tool, and based in science and esoteric knowledge, an it is the exploitation or natural or supernatural forces

Magic is not part of the person, even if the talent is required to use it, it exists externally to be used by a person and is not part of the person

A youkai with supernatural ability, say transformation, does so with his own self and power on his own ability. Transformation is a part of him.

A human youkai, like women with serpentine necks do so because it is part of them and their identity, not simply a tool that they use, and it is much more vital or integral than magic to the person and does not rely on anything external.

>> No.8945849

>>8945791
I see. Then, just as it is with kami and faith, youkai simply gain power from fear, rather than requiring such a thing. That seems to be the explanation that makes the most sense.

In the end, both fear and faith overlap to some degree: you could say it's simply reverence for one's existence. As long as you believe they're real, it's enough, but the more you revere them, the greater influence it might have.

It also seems to be the case that youkai can gain power from faith, so perhaps that is what those benevolent fox spirits and servants of kami drew their power from. Whether or not they gained enough power to become "worthy of being worshiped" seems to be the difference between them staying youkai or becoming kami.

I also remember that Tengu have a history of being worshiped. They are somewhat like wind gods, but in the end, I guess they are just considered youkai. Maybe the more powerful ones are kami. Same for Oni: it is said that youkai mountain was once ruled by an Oni god. That Oni had probably become a kami.

In that sense, one could almost say that while "Youkai" is one who has surpassed what humans and other animals are ordinarily capable of doing (possessing supernatural abilities), "Kami" is one who possesses a particularly high level of supernatural ability.

However, this does not explain why even the myriad spirits (many of whom are quite weak) that exist throughout nature can be considered kami. In the end, I guess that "Kami" is just a different type of spiritual existence, not necessarily stronger or weaker.

Perhaps Suwako is a lot like Shou in that, if her existence is completely forgotten or rejected, it would have become unstable, but once her "identity" was properly established, it became stable enough that she would have been fine.

>> No.8945866

In Japan, the distinction between kami and youkai is very vague.
Some became kami from the youkai

>> No.8945871

Seems to me UnzanxIchirin is 100% canon now.

>> No.8945912

>youkai simply gain power from fear

Youkai don't operate on a divine level, they're just supernatural creatures. They aren't an opposite to kami.

But the rest is more or less right

>In that sense, one could almost say that while "Youkai" is one who has surpassed what humans and other animals are ordinarily capable of doing (possessing supernatural abilities),

Correct

>"Kami" is one who possesses a particularly high level of supernatural ability.

Not correct. It is better not to think of kami and youkai as related subjects. A rock or a tree can be a kami, as long as it has this inherent worthiness. It doesn't even really need to be supernatural, just great.

>However, this does not explain why even the myriad spirits (many of whom are quite weak) that exist throughout nature can be considered kami. In the end, I guess that "Kami" is just a different type of spiritual existence, not necessarily stronger or weaker.

So pretty much this. Kami is not directly related to youkai. Lots of kami are not considered youkai and lots of youkai are not considered kami.

>> No.8945938

>>8945912
To make that a little clearer:

Kami-Youkai: Fujin and Raijin are Oni (youkai) as well as being kami and subjects of worship at many temples (and therefore worthy of worship)

Kami-Nonyoukai: The classical pantheon of Japanese gods such as Amaterasu are simply considered divine and worthy of worship, but do not posses the same kinds of worldly powers youkai do. Other kami may be the embodiment of abstract concepts, rather that beings with supernatural powers.

Nonkami-Youkai: Your typical racoon, fox, nekomata, hopping umbrella. They have or are supernatural powers, but generally even if powerful, they aren't considered worthy of worship. The ones that are however may have local shrines and can be considered kami.

Nonkami-nonyoukai: A typical human being.

>> No.8945947

So can I understand the kami things as potential? So all things considered kami have the potential to become god but not everything will. There are some youkai that are kami and can become god and some that aren't.

>> No.8945953

>>8945938
Also Kami-Nonyoukai will almost always be in human forms (although not human), abstract form (although abstract concepts are usually personified into human forms) or inanimate objects. I don't recall any Kami-Nonyoukai that are animals, beasts or magical creatures.

>> No.8945972

>>8945947
>god

The concept of god is fairly meaningless in the native Japanese sense and in the western monotheistic sense. To the Japanese there are kami, and to westerners and Japanese deists, there is god who is by his nature inherently the one and only god.

The concept of god you're attempting to apply is a fairly artificial one, being defined as a subject that receives great worship. But this concept is also not that meaningful in a monotheistic tradition, or in understanding the nature of kami.

Perhaps another way to describe worthy-of-worship is, something that is great, awesome, amazing etc to the extent that it is worthy of being worshiped.

>> No.8945981

>>8945972
Godhood is generally an inherent state of being, and it does not rely on worship to be a god.

The monotheistic god is the creator of all and because he is master of all, he is the one and only god, not because his creations worship him.

The Greek gods are gods because they are descendants of gods, and have divine lineage, not because humans worship them.

Japanese kami are kami because they possess this worthiness, not because humans worship them.

Humans worshiping is not the cause of godhood, but the result and a natural consequence of godhood if you follow traditional narratives. The idea of worship making a god is probably more related to late secular or theological philosophy on the nature of churches or the nature of divinity.

The original people who created gods didn't tell other people, worship this thing and it will become great because you worship it and do things for you. They said, worship this thing because it is great and it will do things for you.

>> No.8945996

>>8945981
In the case of kami, can this "worthiness" be defined objectively, or is it purely a subjective judgment by us humans?

>> No.8946011

>>8945996
Objective. I know you can punch holes in arguments, but these are distinctions drawn thousands of years ago as tools to consolidate power.

Kami are worthy, and therefore people worship them. Implying that such behavior was subjective, volitional and human would draw into question the kami's inherent worth and divinity, and therefore no one would want to admit kami are not objectively worthy, and people would rather worship a kami that was objectively worthy.

>> No.8946056

>>8945953
They are just spirits though. They are not necessarily corporeal, and can probably change their form to whatever they wish.

Same with Kanako. It states that divine spirits ordinarily can't be seen (incorporeal), but because humans do not like things they can't see, most take on some form anyway. Kanako's appearance is merely the form she chose.

But, if she wanted, she could probably look like pretty much anything, I guess?

>> No.8946081

>>8946056
They can also just be a fucking giant rock.

>> No.8946160

>>8946081
mind = blown

>> No.8946208

>When gods are named their powers are restricted, but they receive an ego. They lose the ability to exist within anything, becoming no different from youkai, but in return receive an ability related to their myths.
>However, if they lose all their faith, they return to their former existence. As for youkai, they disappear when forgotten, but they prevent that through threatening people or causing disturbances, rather than through faith. If a god who did nothing but threaten people lost its faith, it would become an ordinary youkai.

>> No.8946317

>>8946208
Funny how part 5 answered that question for us.

In that case, it seems we can sum it up like this:

1. When an existence is revered, an "identity" or "ego" is created or perhaps redefined/reinforced, and it gains power. Having a name and a form are important to this. It doesn't matter whether you gain this reverence via infamy or faith.
2. Those who use the above method of gaining power, will return to their previous state once all of that reverence is lost. If you were created by that method, you will disappear. As with Shou, your "identity" can be "recreated" to help prevent this from happening.
4. Any existence can use this method of gaining power, but kami and youkai do not necessarily need to. That which was not created by this reverence will not disappear. Most of the myriad kami that exist throughout nature, were not created by it, but rather were simply born from nature itself.
5. The intrinsic quality of "worthiness to be worshiped" is separate from all of the above. Those who possess enough of this "worthiness" are called kami. Even if you were not born with sufficient levels of "worthiness," it can be gained as your identity is redefined.
6. As has been said, "youkai" is merely the state of having supernatural power. It has nothing do with that "worthiness."

>> No.8946346

>>8946317
Looks like I forgot to put a #3.

And there is another question that is not answered by this: exactly why are humans so important to Gensokyo if this reverence can be gained from any sentient being?

I used to think it was simply because it's easier to leave an impression on humans, and therefore this process of gaining reverence becomes smoother. But, I'm not really sure whether this is true. Someone (either Byakuren or Kanako) said that it's pretty much the opposite, actually: faith can be more easily gained from youkai.

I also had the theory that it was because this method of gaining power is not self-sustaining (if you have a closed space where the only existences are those created by this method, it would all disappear). However, there are non-humans that were not created by this method in Gensokyo.

In that case... I'm kind of at a loss.

>> No.8946375

>>8946346

Quantitative factor, maybe. So the youkai require this much of reverence but their number was few so they have to make it up with human.

Also, the way I see it. All of the reverence must originally came from human. Reverence can also be obtains from fellow youkai is a fact they learned latter.

>> No.8946378

>>8946346
to repopulate the earth with humans used to coexisting with youkai when the outside world eventually destroys itself.

>> No.8946396

>>8943157

This could make some sense if not for the fact that Lunarian society also seems to be completely female dominated.

Touhou is simply a different world. Similar but different. Like how Japan had a space station or NASA tried to build a base on the moon.

>> No.8946402
File: 44 KB, 300x300, TheClashLondonCallingalbumcover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8946402

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Bunbunmaru_Newspaper_1

I'm now extremely disappointed at myself for not having posted this album as that picture surfaced. Once the angry/leather connection was made, punk rock was the first thing I thought. Then I thought it was just wishful thinking because I'm one of those freaks who think punk > metal :/

>> No.8946408

>>8946402

considering Mystia is the punk youkai it was obvious from the start.

>> No.8946427

Murasa could technically kill you with your own tears.

How does that feel?

>> No.8946424

>>8943279

Every single important character so far was female. 14 main games, a couple of spin-off games and tons of canon stories yet there isn't even a single important guy. SoPM is pretty much a debate amongst the main powers of Gensokyo to decide it's future. And not even a single guy is there.

Not to mention many male gods or historical figures were turned female.

It's safe to assume there aren't any important males in Touhou.

>> No.8946435

>>8946427

so could I

>> No.8946438

>>8943713

There are most likely more places like Gensokyo all over the world.

Gensokyo contains japanese fantasies and just a bit of things from other countries.

>> No.8946461

>>8946438
Now I am imagining a Norse 'Gensokyo' where the remaining Norse gods , trolls, and dwarves reside, wearing silly hats and dresses.

>> No.8946460

>>8946396
I can't agree with this due to the fact that we've only see 3 characters that ever had power in the Lunarian society. The idea that we can automatically assume that the rest of it is just like what we've seen, is really questionable.

>> No.8946467

>>8946461
Somebody needs to make this fucking happen.

>> No.8946472

>>8946460

We saw lunarian males in SSiB, they were some lowly guards. Even the LDC was all-female, despite the fact we saw many male moon rabbits in SSiB.

Eirin was stated to be the second most important person on the moon until the whole Kaguya thing happened. Watatsuki sisters are famous, feared and respected protectors of the moon.

Maybe it's not clearly stated but you can see that there is a large difference between the roles of males and females in Touhou.

And the likes of Tenma are considered male by the western fans only because -sama is translated as Lord. Giving illusion that they are male.

>> No.8946475

>>8946461

I bet every significant culture has it's own Gensokyo.

>> No.8946480

>>8946460

We saw dozens if not hundreds of lunarian characters in SSiB. Including many males.

All important characters and those in power were female.

Also: Eirin, Kaguya, Toyohime and Yorihime = 4 characters with power in moon society.

>> No.8946479

I bet Thor is probably in Gensokyo too, genderswapped, wearing hats and frilly dresses, just waiting for an incident she could start.

>> No.8946484

>>8946375
>>8946378
At this point, I think it's simply because humans have the role of passing down the legends. It's true that humans don't need to be the ones to do it by any means, but that's just how the tradition goes, and it would take a while for them to adapt to it if this was changed.

However, the youkai that were sealed away underground no longer work according to this tradition. There just aren't any humans down there, so they adapted to it.

I think I can sort of understand how Byakuren got this weird idea that youkai can live in a world where they are not feared. Because, it should be fine as long as they are remembered... Infamy is not the key, it's merely the fastest way to get a lot of attention.

Maybe her ideal is a place where the worth of every existence is acknowledged as a matter of course, where every individual is cherished and remembered by those around them...

>> No.8946486

>>8946467
I guess the European supernatural refuge is underground. Didn't they have mining kobolds there?

>> No.8946487
File: 75 KB, 650x650, 6d206cd81550539958250dea91c09d11d2e0e040.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8946487

>>8946479
Sounds pretty fucking moe, that

>> No.8946579

>>8946486

And elves, fairies, dragons, werewolves and so on. It wouldn't be that different from Gensokyo.

I want to see the European branch of hell.

>> No.8946595

>>8946579
So we got overseas Gensokyo. We got:

European Gensokyo: With mostly Norse and Medieval myth
Mediterranean Gensokyo: With Mycene/Aegean/Greeks and Roman myth
Middle East Gensokyo: With Egyptian and ancient Middle East myth like Babylonian myth and so on)
China Gensokyo: Similar to Japan Gensokyo, but with more Chinese myth
South Asia Gensokyo: All those Hindus and part Buddhism myths
Nusantara Gensokyo: Consists of the spice islands of S.E Asia. Filled with something quite similar to the South Asia Gensokyo but with a bit of Middle East and local myth

>> No.8946598
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8946598

I imagine something like Arcadia from ChtD going on in Europe.

>> No.8946617

At least Tsukuyomi is male.

>> No.8946620
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8946620

>>8946595

>>China Gensokyo: Similar to Japan Gensokyo, but with more Chinese myth

Also Taoism would pretty likely play a heavy focus in a Chinese rendition of Gensokyo since it originated from there.

>> No.8946634

I always imagined having youkai from western cultures living in there, like Kobolds working in unison with Oni and Trolls acting as guards

>> No.8946648

>She has a bright personality and is a good conversationalist. While she's flooding a ship she likes to chat with the owner. She's gotten a lot of good practice with her rhetorical skills like this.

Minamitsu is really the best, isn't she?

>> No.8946655

>>8946617

Nope.

Tsukuyomi's gender is unknown. Just because real Tsukuyomi is male doesn't mean anything. Tons of gods were genderbent in games and SSiB. Including really well known ones.

>> No.8946664

>>8946595
you'd need one for each country, as each probably has enough to fill a gensokyo on it's own.
however, considering the western elements of touhou these places might not and probably don't exist anyway

>> No.8946669

>>8946648
She sounds like a complete asshole.

>> No.8946672

>>8946648
At least we know she still continues to drown ships today.
But heck, Gensokyo has no oceans, so I dunno.

>> No.8946684

>From her perspective, he appeared to be just a monk staring at his feet. Thinking "Oh, has one of those shown up?", before he had a chance to raise his head she shouted "The Foreseeing Nyuudou was foreseen!" Which is a spell to repel them.
>While originally this would be enough to make one disappear, the shock of his utter defeat and admiration for the plucky girl prompted Unzan to devote the rest of his life to protecting her.

After reading in the summary that she defeated him, I was expecting her to have beaten the shit out of him while she was still human. I was expecting something great, but what is this? It's such a letdown...

Well, it's not quite as lame if I think of the fact that the spell she used actually had spiritual force behind it, which was enough to make a Foreseeing Nyuudou disappear usually.

>> No.8946682

>>8946595
Would that make the SDM refugees from European Gensokyo, possibly over Gungnir and Lävatein?

>> No.8946685

>>8946648
"Sup? Lovely weather, ain't it? Murasa from Myouren Temple, by the way." SUNK

I wonder if the owner would actually talk with her?

>> No.8946694

>>8946664

Not really.

There are 120M japanese, it's a big nation with unique culture and their own religion.

Small countries definitely wouldn't have enough legends and myths to create a place like Gensokyo and many minor cultures were assimilated into bigger and more influential ones.

One Gensokyo per western Europe, eastern Europe, Mediterranean and Scandinavia would be more than enough.

>> No.8946719

>>8946684
Though simple and disappointing, I'd want to see a backstory depiction of Ichirin. How would people interpret it, I wonder. Young Ichirin would be a nice look too

>> No.8946749

>>8946719
Well, remember that Ichirin is Unzan's weak point. I find it unlikely that she is stronger than him, just more clever.

>> No.8946760

>>8946749
>While Unzan is protecting her, there's no way to hit Ichirin. So you shouldn't have attacked them in the first place.
>Although they're unusual youkai, their true strength is quite high.

It sounds like it won't be too easy to hit that weak point though. Actually, they sound quite badass. Ichirin has a lot of guts too, according to Akyuu.

>> No.8946763

>>8946749

Why? Because you were shooting at her? Remember it was just a danmaku match.

>> No.8946766

>>8946749
>While Unzan is protecting her, there's no way to hit Ichirin.
No hitting of that weak point though

>> No.8946773

>>8946760
Reminds me of that one Naruto character who uses sand.

>> No.8946772

Ichirin will win any fist fight out there~

>> No.8946785

>>8946772

Not with Suika. Or Yuugi. Or Remilia. Or Tenshi.

>> No.8946791

Too bad Ichirin and Unzan's true strength can only be left to imagination.

>> No.8946795

>>8946785
Those are special cases, they're all extremely powerful so of course Ichirin can't win a fistfight against them.

There's nothing saying she couldn't at least put up a fight if Unzan is with her, though...

>> No.8946807
File: 530 KB, 595x881, 526698e7ba153e22478fe85a019a38dc..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8946807

Is this the closest canon pairing we'll get for Touhou?

>> No.8946813

>>8946807

No.

That would be Remilia x Sakuya.

>> No.8946812

>>8946807
It's not a pairing though

>> No.8946817

>>8946813
Stop defiling this sacred place with your secondary bullshit.

>> No.8946824

>>8946812
Well I said "closest" to a pairing though, trying to get a canon pairing is impossible.

>> No.8946833

>>8946817

Ever played EoSD as Marisa?

>> No.8946838

>>8946833
If he did, he'd know that Sakuya x Marisa is closer to a canon pairing.

Seriously, wtf is that.

>> No.8946840

>>8946817
Well, I know their relationship is extremely close, with Sakuya willing to die for Remilia and such. Remilia still can differentiate their positions of mistress and maid though.

>> No.8946846

>>8946840

Sakuya mentions Remilia's sex maids though.

>> No.8946921

>>8946846
Yeah, except they are male.

>> No.8946946

>>8946846
I always read that line as yet another clumsy attempt by Sakuya to unbalance Marisa (same as the Thorium decay products line).

>> No.8946987

>>8946921

Especially since no males were ever mentioned in EoSD.

>> No.8947136

>>8946838
>Sakuya x Marisa

god no

>> No.8947162

>>8947136
I know, right? I mean, ew, seriously, what ZUN was thinking?!

>> No.8947178

I always wondered how /jp/ can discuss all sorts of theories about power levels and fauna and interpretations and have all sorts of ridiculous arguments to death but whenever someone mentions two characters relationship they get shouted at and called secondaries

I wouldn't mind discussing the social standings between characters once in a while but apparently no fun allowed in /jp/

>> No.8947189

>>8947178
Our theories are just different interpretations of official material. Pairings are only speculations.

>> No.8947206

>>8947178
>social standings between characters
It doesn't look like that's what's being discussed at all.

Unless if you think "A x B is canon because I said so!" is discussing social standings.

I know it should be obvious, but ZUN has never put any pairings in Touhou. There are plenty of characters that are good friends, but unfortunately for all the asshurt shippers, that's all we ever saw. There's nothing to even suggest that there is anything more than that.

>> No.8947213

>>8947189
Interpretation and speculation go hand in hand.

and pairing =/= general social behavior and exchange between characters

>> No.8947231

>>8947206
Right, but I still think it's ridiculous because /jp/ seems to be so overbearing terrified of shippers that whenever anything remotely related is mentioned everyone starts freaking out and doing backflips.

Especially when overbearingly ridiculous speculation is otherwise tolerated in power level threads.

>> No.8947234
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8947234

>>8947178

it's alright anon. the truth will always be in your heart.

>> No.8947238
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8947238

>>8946833
This whole bit of discussion prompted me to go back and replay EOSD

Good lord the dialogues come a long way

>> No.8947243

>>8947234
Touhou is a personal experience, indeed
In that way, I guess I agree with black Tewi

>> No.8947259

>>8947206

There is plenty. Especially concerning SDM.

But whatever.

>> No.8947267

>>8947259

like what?

I'm not trying to antagonize, but if you're gonna start arguing something you need to bring the proof yourself. until then it seems like you really are just saying whatever you want to be true.

>> No.8947273

>>8947231
Terrified? Quite the contrary, isn't the rest of /jp/ filled with that kind of thing? There's even people who think it's strange to use Touhou for anything more than masturbation fuel. It's rare that we get this kind of quality Touhou discussion on /jp/, you know.

>> No.8947284

>>8947206
>There's nothing to even suggest that there is anything more than that.

The thing is, in many cases, there is just barely enough information to know that two character know of each other. But, at the same time it's stated that they, for example, live together or have known each other for a long time.

At such times, how is any speculation in regards of their relationship more absurd than any other...?

>> No.8947305

>>8947273
What kind of thing?
Secondaries perhaps, but not shipping. /jp/ loathes shipping in Touhou. There are a few that might be ok, but even those get called out on.

However, using Touhou solely as masturbation fuel is socially accepted...

>> No.8947309

>>8947189
Speculations are nothing but interpretations of official material.

>>8947206
Love is a natural, basic, primal feeling. You can't expect Touhous to not love just because it can never be shown in a family videogame.

>> No.8947318

>>8947284
If you can make intelligent posts on the matter instead of just posting disgraceful pictures and insisting that it's canon, then by all means do.

>>8947305
See above.

>> No.8947322

>>8947267
Remilia hugging Reimu from behind while saying "I can wait until night, if you want. "?

>>8945671
>Today errors were fixed in Kanako's and Koishi's that had been giving completely wrong ideas.
Everyone already read the initial (mis)translations and will use them in their arguments for the next few years. It's quite sad.

>> No.8947335

O boy here we go getting mad their faceless men doujin will never be true.

>> No.8947342

>>8947318
In regards of the "terrified" comment, I'm talking generally. I don't understand what you mean, this thread is indeed an except from a lot of things common on /jp/, but we already knew that.

>> No.8947351

Touhou is a world without significant males. Gensokyo males are boring, weak and worthless. And they utterly suck at the most popular pastime activity in Gensokyo, Danmaku.

While many of the girls know each other for centuries, thousands of years often, and are very close.

Pairings are completely natural in such a setting.

>> No.8947357

>>8947322
It wasn't anything particularly important, really. I don't think people will ever care or argue there are multiple Moriya Shrines or something similarly inane.

>> No.8947374

I don't really get it.

Everybody love Touhou yuri. 3/4 of Touhou doujins are soft yuri.

Yet /jp/ hate it with passion. Why?

Are you people butthurt you favorite Touhou won't suck your dick or something?

>> No.8947382

>>8947374
I like touhou yuri.

>> No.8947383

>>8947309
>You can't expect Touhous to not love

I said that, but now I'm thinking... most Touhous aren't human. They're youkai or gods or fairies. Maybe we should not, in fact, expect them to.

Can youkai love?

>> No.8947396

>>8947383
At least the youkai that were once animals (including humans) can.

>> No.8947400

>>8947383

There are tons of stories about youkai falling in love and even having kids with humans.

And even more with youkai seducing people to use/eat them.

>> No.8947399

>>8947383
I guess that might depends on if you see it as something socially constructed or as something instinctual.

>> No.8947408

>>8947396
Excellent.

>> No.8947416

>>8947383
Hitokoishi Kamisama says anything to you?
Rinnousuke and Keine are half youkai. Either their parents were raped or they were in a relationship.
Byakuren would probably think so too.
Flandre seems somewhat attached to Marisa.
Oni used to enter in frank, friendly relationships with humans. Some particularly favored humans were spirited away. Probably for snoo snoo.

>> No.8947414

>>8947383
It is much less likely to happen, but it is possible.

>>8947342
>>8947351
>>8947374
Look, I really don't care. This argument serves no purpose other than for people to fling shit at each other.

Go ahead and make your posts with pairing speculation, or whatever. However, please be serious about it. I've already said this, but please make intelligent posts instead of just shitting on the thread.

It's a matter of respect. Some of us love the Touhou canon and its characters, and are honestly trying to have intelligent and worthwhile discussions about them, so you cannot be surprised that we will get offended if you come in with nothing more than the desire to fantasize about them.

This is not that kind of topic. Leave that stuff in the rest of /jp/.

>> No.8947445

>>8947416
Keine is a were-hakutaku. She was once fully human. It's in her profile unless those were also mistranslations, not really.

>> No.8947460

>>8947416
>Rinnousuke and Keine are half youkai. Either their parents were raped or they were in a relationship.

We've had that discussion before and no, it's not necessary. See: Youmu, half-human by species.

But it doesn't matter. I guess on the primal level, before they develop their own egos and personalities, youkai are just what we think they are.

And humans were never particularly creative. We just form them in their own image. There's a reason creatures of their kind are called personifications, and the process antropomorphisation. If a youkai feels emotions, they're, ultimately, human emotions.

>> No.8947476

>>8947460
>>8947445
Very well. Lets assume it is not necessary.

Yuki Onna, Mermaids and Kitsune did fall in love and get married with humans.

>> No.8947492

>>8947476
I wonder if they could have offsprings. Fertile offsprings? Either way, they were probably doomed to be outsiders for their entire life.

How about different species of youkai?

>> No.8947565

>>8947492
The three I mentioned all have stories of having children. Particularly the Yuki Onna (Letty).

As for youkai breeding with youkai, it is unknown to me. Aren't youkai spawned from people's fear and faith?

>> No.8947592

>>8947565
(Crow?) tengu lay eggs as seen in SaBND.

>> No.8947594 [DELETED] 

>I wonder if they could have offsprings. Fertile offsprings?
>species

If there's offspring of Human/Youkai/Gods that means they are all from the H. sapiens species but different races, it may happen like with horses and donkeys, they are able to have offspring but those are be sterile.

>> No.8947618

>I wonder if they could have offsprings. Fertile offsprings?
>species

If there's offspring of Human/Youkai/Gods that means they are all from the H. sapiens species but different races, it may happen like with horses and donkeys, they are able to have offspring but those are sterile.

>> No.8947677

>>8947416
>Flandre seems somewhat attached to Marisa.

Where does it show that?

>> No.8947683

Reimu was really desperate to close that meeting.

Her job is her entire life, after all. Should laws be passed, she would feel useless other than being alive to maintain the border.

>> No.8947684

>>8947618
This kind of goes through the window when you remember that they're supernatural creatures. They're not biology. Remembering the species barrier is kind of pointless when you're dealing with an umbrella walking around in the shape of a girl.

>> No.8947687

>>8947677
Some bullshit in EoSD scenario where she jokes about marrying Marisa.

>> No.8947696

>>8947677

in all my favorite doujins of course! xD

>> No.8947697

>>8947683
Has there been the slightest bit of info of any kind regarding previous hakurei shrine maidens somewhere?

I'm pretty sure I read something about all of them being unsuccesful somewhere.

>> No.8947707

>>8947684
ZUN want's his magical land to be connected with today's science and technology, little things like "Genetics of the subconscious" makes me think I'm in the good way when I try to adapt Gensokyo to modern knowledge about nature.

>> No.8947712

>>8947687
Actually, Flandre asks ''marry who?'' and Marisa replies ''I know a shrine maiden that I'll introduce you to''

God knows how fans took that as the other way round.

>> No.8947722

SDM is the lewdest touhou game.

There's mentions of sex maids, Remilia hugs Reimu and Marisa suggest marriage to Flandre.

>> No.8947727

>>8947697

the PC-98 era games all feature the previous miko, Reimu's mom, as the main protagonist. Shortly after the events of Mystic Square she dies a horrible death at the hands of mima and then Yukari restores the order by killing her and indoctrinating Reimu as the new shrine maiden by taking her virginity

>> No.8947749

>>8944727
>>8944737
Did you not notice the reason of why she stopped the meeting?

Her whole purpose in life was at risk.

>> No.8947845

>>8947707
Right, namefag. So you do it like this: You see when Kanako rightfully said in SoPM that "human fears and ideals wouldn't be here, drinking sake with you?" (or something like this. I seriously loved her for that, great debater).

So, if a youkai, a god, or a fairy is before you in a human-like body, this means that the magic that created them went all the way and gave them a human-like body down to the smallest details. Details like DNA. Of course, that body is being mostly sustained by magic and hacked to hell and back to allow super-strength, flight, etc.

Even magic can't create things entirely from nothing. It has to to adapt or use existing templates. This means that Kanako's, Suika's or Miko's body is human, up to the points where there's literal "LOL, MAGIC" phenomenons happening, needed to maintain whatever powers they have.

So, Suika and other Oni don't have a special super DNA that generates hyper-strong muscle fibers, but just regular human DNA that produces regular muscle fibers that have a "LOL, MAGIC" ability to generate hyper-strength and deal with its effects. This is all we non-biologists should worry about. Biologists can examine their cells in a microscope and see the actual magic circuits where they are needed, but this is seriously too nerdy for anybody else.

This also explains why all the half-youkai in mythologies. When it comes the time to sexing it up, they use their human biology and trust the LOL, MAGIC parts to keep any love product growing in their uterus even when the mother, say, becomes a cloud, or a snake, or other shit.

TL;DR; A wizard did it.

>> No.8947926

>>8947727
That is fucking retarded.
Reimu is the same Reimu as the purple haired one from the past. Although I wouldn't mind this being canon.

>Yukari restores the order by killing her and indoctrinating Reimu as the new shrine maiden by taking her virginity

Futa Yukari giving it to Reimu would be amazing.

>> No.8947954

>2012
>still giving a shit about new touhou games
Its been years since Zun has made a tolerable one

>> No.8947956

>>8947722
SDM isn't a Touhou game

>> No.8947962

>>8947954

I for one think 10-13 are far better than the old ones, in terms of gameplay and enjoyability. as far as the stories and characters go, I suppose I still enjoy the older ones more. but that just might be attachment over several years. My only beef is youmu's shot-type in TD. What do you mean your shift shot is a charge-up move? fuck this.

>> No.8947961

>>8947954
>stop having fun

>> No.8947980
File: 68 KB, 640x480, durr.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8947980

>>8947727
pic


>>8947845
Why did you flip out? I didn't say that we shouldn't approach Gensokyo from a mythological point of view, that's stupid, but not accepting the small pieces of today's knowledge shoved in Gensokyo as prove of a possible scientific approach is as dumb.

>> No.8947990

>>8947954

ZUN hasn't released a game this year, though

>> No.8948003
File: 118 KB, 590x443, Axelay_s004.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8948003

>>8947962
I find TD to be easier with Youmu.

And I have disagree. It is nice to have different play styles in a game. Reimu, which is good for beginners. Marisa/Sanae for mor experienced players. Youmu for a new gameplay experience.

>> No.8948022

>"Even if I die, I'll just be reborn, and if I can't be reborn I'll be fine as a yuurei." That's surely how they think. Rather than that, what they're scared of is their existence being denied completely.

Well now, that clears up a lot of important shit.

We just got proof that youkai, in fact, are under NO threat from physical attacks. They will either regenerate or respawn, or even become a yuurei (speaking of which, I didn't think they could really become yuurei? but I guess so).

Instead, they are only afraid of spiritual attacks. Being forgotten is another problem. But that's pretty much it, it seems.

>> No.8948030

>>8948022
Don't you forget to provide a source.

>> No.8948048

>>8948022
>Even if I die, I'll just be reborn
Are you sure this isn't the re-incarnation kind of reborn?

>> No.8948044

>>8948030
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_5

>> No.8948061

>>8948048

i think it is the re-incarnation kind. but i think that it doesn't make a bit of difference, since to residents of gensokyo re-incarnation is an undisputed fact of life. like, there's absolutely no doubt in their minds that they for sure will live a next life. unlike us where you can believe in re-incarnation but it is unlikely you have complete, physical evidence and certainty that you will indeed be reincarnated.

>> No.8948072

>>8948048
Because after that, it says
>if I can't be reborn, I'll be fine as a yuurei.

When does one become a "yuurei"? Aren't they the things that are taken across the river and judged, and become reincarnated?

Wouldn't that mean that, before you become a yuurei, you are not to be reincarnated?

So, then... It seems more like the body is just recreated.

Well, there is more that supports this, too:
>It's because the core of a youkai isn't its body, but its heart.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_4

The source of a youkai's life is not its body... The core of a youkai is its heart. If you attack the heart, for example by having a vengeful spirit possess them, they die.

>> No.8948128

>>8947980
>>8947926
Why did you people reply seriously?

Hell, why did you reply at all?

>> No.8948136
File: 143 KB, 600x567, 26687248.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8948136

>Deep in her heart she seems to look down on humans and other youkai

So much for Nitori's fanon love of humans. ZUN has shattered yet another illusion.

>> No.8948143

>>8948136
ITT: People understand Umineko's philosophy of the truth being unnecessary.

>> No.8948148 [DELETED] 

>>8948128
Because I had the feeling that If I didn't end that quickly it would end in a long discussion about canon bullshit about Reimu/pc 98 Reimu canonicity.

>> No.8948159

>>8948148
Because you thought that nobody else would realize it was a joke post?

>> No.8948178

>>8948159
Nevermind.

>> No.8948198

Did Reimu have PMS or something during the Symposium? She seemed extra moody and fed up with the youkai. And to think I thought she was opening up a little bit, what with her acting more accepting of the fairies now. At least Marisa seems just as chill as ever. I love how non hypocritical she is. Even though she does a lot of "bad" things she never judges others for perceived "badness."

>> No.8948224

>>8948198
She's always been ''opening'', what with befriending the villain every time.

Thing is, this time around, the meeting was threatening her position as moderator of Gensokyo to which she would lose all purpose in life should that happen.

Notice Miko's response to her too, by the way.

>> No.8948246

>>8948198

read the thread. it's been discussed. to death.
basically she's mad because they're trying to take her job, way of life, reason for living and such.
pretty understandable I believe

>> No.8948249

>>8948198
Well, don't jump to conclusions just yet. Though I must say, you summed up perfectly why I love Marisa:
>Even though she does a lot of "bad" things she never judges others for perceived "badness."
I don't think I could have said it better myself.

That said, with Reimu it's not quite so simple. Her existence is tied to Gensokyo itself. Whenever the balance of Gensokyo is threatened, she arrives to put a stop to it. Now you may say, "how is the balance being threatened?" Well...

1. Miko wants to exterminate all the youkai, and have the humans take over.
2. Byakuren wants to introduce a system of law into Gensokyo, of all things.
3. Most importantly, there was a lot of discussion that could lead to the tradition of "Youkai attack humans -> Humans exterminate youkai" being disrupted. They were discussing whether youkai are as "bad" as all the humans think they are, which is particularly dangerous since the youkai are already in danger of becoming humanized to the point where many of them have stopped fulfilling their purpose of attacking humans (read WaHH 9 if you don't believe me, Reimu makes this clear). This is why Reimu brought the newspaper articles.
4. Finally, it was the very fact that there's 3 of Gensokyo's most politically influential residents gathering in the same location. They're all new, too, so nobody can really say what might happen if they all decided to come up with some weird plan? Gensokyo might have a ridiculous, huge incident on their hands.

>> No.8948256
File: 135 KB, 900x600, Perfection.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8948256

What will their half half youkai half half human children bring to Gensokyo?

>> No.8948264

>>8948249
Did they, in the end, just disperse without even reading those newspaper articles?

>> No.8948269

>>8948249
>Gensokyo might have a ridiculous, huge incident on their hands.

TOUHOU 14: RELIGIOUS FEUD BOOGALOO

>> No.8948277

>>8948264
The fact that Akyuu mentions the contents of the newspaper must mean that the contents must have been shown clearly.

I think they do comment on them too.

>> No.8948271

>>8948198
People have said that its because she thought that what they were discussing was a threat to her livelyhood.
But that doesn't make sense. Neither the youkai or the human population of Gensokyo are capable of following one leader or obeying a legal system.
Even the spell card system only works because violators would be gapped out of the country by Yukari.
Reimu shouldn't of reacted at all, now she is just showing her immature side-although her instincts are good in that three youkai leaders plotting would result in no good no matter how well intentioned. All they would acheve is to disrupt the power balance that keeps Gensokyo relatively peaceful.
Calling TH14 as a confrontation between "old timers" and "newbies"

>> No.8948273

>>8948224
Yeah I mean there's always the endgame things. She just seemed really emotional, and props to ZUN for making her seem really human. This really made me like Miko though now that you mention that. She wasn't as wordy as Kanako but she held her own the whole time and made Reimu stumble at the end.

>> No.8948298

>>8948271Calling TH14 as a confrontation between "old timers" and "newbies"

Time to rev up my bones.

>> No.8948295

>>8948271
>Even the spell card system only works because violators would be gapped out of the country by Yukari.

Where does it say that?

>Neither the youkai or the human population of Gensokyo are capable of following one leader or obeying a legal system.

That's what the 3 leaders were trying to achieve, regardless of what you may think of the youkai, they had big influence over the population, especially Byakuren. Should they succeed, Reimu's position WILL be threatened.

>> No.8948296

>>8948246
Also I'm sorry my thoughts are belated. I was reading the thread all day through the archiveat work and couldn't respond to the thread but I've had some thoughts and I really wanted to throw them out.

>> No.8948301

>>8948256

If Keine and Rinnosuke were left to repopulate Gensokyo as ZUN's Adam and Eve, there would no longer be any human vs youkai problems.

>> No.8948311

>>8948271
>Even the spell card system only works because violators would be gapped out of the country by Yukari.
The spell card system is voluntary. When two people engage in a duel, they may choose to adopt the rules, or not.

>> No.8948319

>>8948311
That doesn't make sense, where does it say that?

Youkai would still eat villagers if that were the case, some spiffy rule written on paper isn't going to make them miss a meal, in fact, I'm pretty sure the reason that they can eat outsiders is because those don't know danmaku.

>> No.8948322

>>8948295
>Where does it say that?
Nowhere. Spell card dueling is a game. If you break the rules, people won't want to play with you anymore.

>> No.8948332

>>8948319
1. A footnote in Reimu's PMiSS article says that the rules are merely popular with females and youkai.
2. Suika knocks everyone at the Myouren Temple out, and then goes to see Reimu, and Reimu does not mind at all despite knowing that none of it went according to the spell card rules.

>> No.8948328

Has it ever been mentioned that the spellcard rules could be broken?

Has there ever been a non-spellcard duel since?

Why would Okuu use spellcards if she wanted to burn the above ground and every living being inside it?

How did Byakuren know about spellcards the second she was released?

>> No.8948331

>>8948319
>I'm pretty sure the reason that they can eat outsiders is because those don't know danmaku.
You're the one not making sense. You must challenge the other party to a spellcard duel and they must accept. And if you win a spellcard duel, you are NOT ALLOWED to kill the other person. So even if some outsider somehow accepts to play a game he is sure to lose, the youkai isn't allowed to eat him.

>> No.8948330

>>8948264
They already knew what they contained.
Reimu reminded each of them that the very populations they think they are the master of- really they are not- much less trying to control all of Gensokyo.
Gensokyoians are too self centered as individuals regardless of what species they are, as such they really only respond well to bribes.

>> No.8948340

>>8948332
but no one got killed either.

>> No.8948345

>>8948340
Yes, they didn't get killed, but the point is that you can fight outside of the spell card rules, isn't it?

>> No.8948353

>>8948332
My opinion on that was Suika is not malicious in nature but she is too powerful. So she can be reprimanded but Reimu can't exactly punish her. I think if it were like Rumia doing that Reimu would beat the shit out of her.

>> No.8948352

>>8948331
Outsiders are still eaten by youkai, the ones that don't manage to escape that is.

They wouldn't know danmaku, therefore they wouldn't challenge or accept a ''game'', Akyuu herself says that outsiders never seem scared of youkai (I'm guessing because they look human) yet they are scared of ghosts and run away (who she says are less dangerous than youkai).

Youkai apparently know how to indentify an outsider (their clothes?) so they eat them instantly according to Akyuu, no ''I CHALLENGE YOU'' crap.

>> No.8948357

>>8948352
Well, that's the point. They eat them, they don't play danmaku.

>> No.8948358

>>8948353
She hit her on the head.

>> No.8948361

>>8948332
>1. A footnote in Reimu's PMiSS article says that the rules are merely popular with females and youkai.

Nope

>It appears various other rules were also considered, but as the beauty and volume of danmaku especially appealed to youkai and women, they aren't as popular.

It's merely referring to the ''other rules'', nowhere does it even hint that the already-established spellcard rules are optional or ''not appliable to x''

>> No.8948364

>>8948357
But what prevents youkai from eating those who *do* know danmaku? Why would a hungry youkai offer or accept a danmaku challenge in the first place, rather than just eating the human?

>> No.8948365

>>8948358
Exactly, she just reprimanded her.

>> No.8948370

>>8948353
I'm pretty sure ''power'' isn't something measurable in Gensokyo, at least, anymore. Spellcard battles allow for the weak to fight the strong in an even matched fight, Mystia could beat Yama, for example.

Reimu also bonked her on the head.

>> No.8948369

Futo, Nue, Parsee, and Orin are up.

http://msnkkan.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/sitting-waiting-wishing.html

>> No.8948372

>>8948345
no the point is that you can get killed outside the spell card rules.
The spell card rules and danmaku battles are to keep the damage and loss of life down.
The fact that some of the youkai, gods, and celestials cannot actually be killed does not mean the majority of the population are in the same boat. And the human population and the lesser youkai have a function in the Gensokyo system-or they never would have been included in the barrier to begin with.
But nearly everyone included in the barrier likes to fight or can be roused to do so. And if they were left free to do so Gensokyo would simply become a wasteland prison for the few true Immortals, the ones that are not only ageless and deathless but indestrutable as well.

>> No.8948377

>>8948365
>>8948353
Anyone could beat her up if it's danmaku, I think Reimu hitting her means that she could have just ''exterminated'' her should the offense have been an actually grave one (she was just making people trip over).

Also, what was with Marisa preferring people to die just so that a murder mystery could take place?

>> No.8948381

>>8948369
>Her power has something to do with Feng Shui

I predict fanon will turn her into an interior decorator.

>> No.8948386

>>8948381
Why hasn't it already a year ago?
Now people will draw her "decorating" houses with fire.

>> No.8948388

>>8948358
I'd like to add that Reimu only did that because Suika had attacked a human (Marisa).

>> No.8948393

>>8948377
>Also, what was with Marisa preferring people to die just so that a murder mystery could take place?

She's pretty selfish and selfless at the same time, she doesn't pick on others for doing bad things but she doesn't care about bad things themselves, she steals and (especially) lies as if it were nothing.

>> No.8948399

>>8948388
Where did you take that from?

>> No.8948397

>>8948377
Marisa was just joking, she's not known for being a woman of tact.

>> No.8948402

>>8948397
She didn't seem in her usual ''joke'' mood.

I mean before the murder was confirmed to be fake she was pretty excited, after it got shown as being false she got let down.

>> No.8948409

>>8948377
>she was just making people trip over
What in the world? The attacker defeated them in one blow.
>Also, what was with Marisa preferring people to die just so that a murder mystery could take place?
Marisa is not a woman of morals. Anyone who doesn't know this by now is just hiding under a rock.

>> No.8948420

>>8948399
>And since it was something between youkai, I don't care either way.
>Your playing is dangerous. So behave yourself. At least in front of humans.
Both of these were said in the chapter we're discussing (WaHH 9). The first was said by Reimu before Suika showed up at the shrine, and the second was said when she bonked her on the head.

>> No.8948419

>>8948402
Well she did certainly seem a little disappointed. I'll agree with this person >>8948393

It could also be that denizens of Gensokyo don't place as much importance or finality on "death." But I would bet on it mostly being Marisa's jolly anti-empathy.

>> No.8948426

>>8948364
The spell card rules are kept in place by a number of reaons.
The first and simpleist is that Yukari will gap the offender out of the barrier.
The second is that once the humans notice a relative is missing they will have the shrine maiden- or, now A shrine maiden as they now have a choice of two- lead a lynch mob after the offender. And the will plow up the lives of one youkai after another until they find the right one-or at least one with no alibi. Just because they are not mortal doesn't mean the youkai don't have property and belongings they don't want destroyed.
Because of the above, should a youkai actually eat a local human, a good chunk of the local youkai would be after their ass too for disturbing the peace.
Remember that none of the "real" youkai- the ones who are not actually gods, avatars of gods, or a demi-god-can face the Hakurei maiden if she calls upon her God. Only one of the other gods could.
Lastly the local gods are also opposed to the killing, because Gensokyo is effectively a closed world and each person of either species lost from it is a loss of faith that keeps them from fading away.

>> No.8948429

>>8948420
I'm pretty sure she would have bonked her on the head even if Marisa wasn't there.

She was being mischevious after all.

>> No.8948431

>>8948426
>The first and simpleist is that Yukari will gap the offender out of the barrier.
The second is that once the humans notice a relative is missing they will have the shrine maiden- or, now A shrine maiden as they now have a choice of two- lead a lynch mob after the offender. And the will plow up the lives of one youkai after another until they find the right one-or at least one with no alibi. Just because they are not mortal doesn't mean the youkai don't have property and belongings they don't want destroyed.

Please post your source.

Not once have the rules been questioned and not once have they been ignored, there's also the Utsuho and Byakuren cases that don't make any sense.

>> No.8948437

>>8948431
The Yukari part he pulls out of his ass.

About Utsuho and Byakuren: it's a shooting game. That's the sole reason.

>> No.8948446

>>8948426
>The first and simpleist is that Yukari will gap the offender out of the barrier.
Stating speculation as fact.
>The second is that once the humans notice a relative is missing they will have the shrine maiden- or, now A shrine maiden as they now have a choice of two- lead a lynch mob after the offender. And the will plow up the lives of one youkai after another until they find the right one-or at least one with no alibi. Just because they are not mortal doesn't mean the youkai don't have property and belongings they don't want destroyed.
Well gee, it's pretty hard not to understand things from Byakuren's perspective now.
>a good chunk of the local youkai would be after their ass too for disturbing the peace.
Purely speculation. It's also quite ridiculous, since fighting is a key part of youkai culture.
>Lastly the local gods are also opposed to the killing
Who can say they'd miss one or two people? Again, speculation.

>>8948429
Speculation.

Guys. Gensokyo does not follow our common sense. Get over it. What we consider to be wrong is not necessarily considered wrong there.

>> No.8948443

>>8948437
Well, pre-EoSD bosses would still use danmaku, except there were no spellcard rules and thus people could die.

>> No.8948454

>>8948443
That's because ZUN hadn't thought about giving attacks names yet.

>> No.8948471

What was with Kanako saying she's going to have a youkai shrine maiden? That sounds like some serious foreshadowing.

>> No.8948469

>>8948446
So Yukari isn't the source of the barrier?
And she cannot make holes in it when she wants?
And its not been stated that she has done so to return outsiders who strayed in back to their world?
You are saying these cannot happen

>> No.8948478

>>8948471
oh that is.
I missed that though. Which of the sections was it in?

>> No.8948475

>>8948471
Sounds like something that will be hinted in TH14 i say

>> No.8948486

>>8948469
Stop trying to change the question.

The matter was ''Yukari will gap anyone who breaks the rules'' which is pure speculation.

>> No.8948485

>>8948469
>So Yukari isn't the source of the barrier?
Never said that.
>And she cannot make holes in it when she wants?
Never said that.
>And its not been stated that she has done so to return outsiders who strayed in back to their world?
Technically, it was said that the Shrine Maiden did this, not Yukari.
>You are saying these cannot happen
Nothing of the sort. Let's take a look at what your claim was:

>The spell card rules are kept in place by a number of reaons. The first and simpleist is that Yukari will gap the offender out of the barrier.
So, Yukari gaps people out who do not follow the spell card rules? Are you telling me that is not purely speculation? Also, enforcing the spell card rules has nothing to do with treatment of outsiders.

>> No.8948497

>>8948478
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_5
>But anyway, I can get the faith I need from the kappa. We're even on the verge of having a youkai shrine maiden.

>> No.8948496

So what was that about Reimu deep inside wishing for there to peace and avoiding any type of conflict?

Does her anti-youkai traditions interfere with her actual desires?

>> No.8948500

>>8948496
Nothing happens. It makes me mad.

>> No.8948507

>>8948500
Eh? What do you mean by that?

>> No.8948505

Why to people think Byakuren's position is justified? She's essentially telling humans to stop hating a species that specifically preys on them and would devour the entire Human Village were it not for the rule saying the can't (as well as the possibility of them ceasing to exist).

Unless youkai stopped eating humans there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't continue to be exterminated. Miko is the one in the right.

>> No.8948510

>>8948496
It's been hinted in the past.

She's the one shrine maiden who implemented the spellcard rules which made any kind of conflict non-deadly. She also befriends the youkai she sodomizes in every game.

>> No.8948512

>>8948505
I applaud you for not turning to this ridiculous idea of "everyone in Gensokyo abides by our human morals" shit that many people sometimes spout.

However, her perspective is just too different. It will be difficult for you to understand, but I will sum it up as simply as I can:

She believes that compassion is more important than what's right and what's wrong.

>> No.8948533

>>8948486
No it isnt. Nor is it changing the question.
As long as its provable that A: Yukari can gap beings out of Gensokyo and B: Youkai want to be in Gensokyo and not in the modern world then she IS de facto one of the reasons why dueling with game rules regardless if its stated openly or not. Sure she could ignore a killing in theory- but a killing will beget more killings one way or another, and as a small, closed world (even if imperfectly closed), it cannot afford large scale conflict.
And Yukari effectively created it by making the barrier to begin with. So she cared enough to spend her power to seperate this place from the world. So why would she let it be torn apart? All she would have to do to prevent it is to throw the malefactor out.

>> No.8948546
File: 106 KB, 567x800, A_Very_Buddhist_Chrismas_31.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8948546

>>8948512

Being a good person is a flaw now.

>> No.8948542

>>8948533
>so why

S
P
E
C
U
L
A
T
I
O
N

When will you peopple understand that our common sense != Gensokyo's common sense? Even so, just because you think ''it should be'' doesn't mean it is if there's no proof.

>> No.8948545

>>8948512
And she is free to believe in whatever idiocy she wants. I can't imagine how someone who doesn't have such deluded beliefs would ascribe to them though. Even people who believe in turning the other cheek expect that it would eventually lead one's enemies to befriend you or realize their error and blah blah live in harmony. Byakuren wants humans to stick themselves on a spit to save the youkai the effort.

>> No.8948557

>>8948533
That's because you don't understand Gensokyo's main philosophy:

"It's fine as long as the person who causes a fuss is beaten up."

Everything is resolved on a personal level. There is no government to lead everyone. There are no laws. If you stir shit up, you get beaten up. And then life goes back to normal. And if you stir shit up again, you get beaten up again.

>> No.8948555
File: 51 KB, 347x434, Caster.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8948555

>>8948545

>Byakuren wants humans to stick themselves on a spit to save the youkai the effort.

Calm down there friend before your rage makes a fool of you.

>> No.8948563

>>8948546
Im pretty sure what you consider "good" is not what most would consider good.

>> No.8948570

Byakuren is kind of an extremist.

What she thinks it's the right thing is basically a re-institution of Gensokyo's laws, a change in the perception of species relationship which her millenia-old mind is deluded by, not knowing it's pretty peaceful now besides a few paranoid nutcases on the other side of the spectrum like Keine.

Miko seems to be the only acceptable one, or should I say, the least dangerous one. It's still a mistake to try to change Gensokyo at all from what it is right now.

>> No.8948577

>>8948533
As long as its provable that A: moot can ban people from /jp/ and B: you want to be in /jp/ and not on facebook then he IS de facto one of the reasons why posting with unofficial /jp/ rules regardless if its stated openly or not. Sure he could ignore a shitposting in theory- but a shitposting will beget more shitposting one way or another, and as a small, closed world (even if imperfectly closed), it cannot afford large scale conflict.
And moot effectively created it by making the barrier to begin with. So he cared enough to spend his power to seperate this place from the world. So why would she let it be torn apart? All he would have to do to prevent it is to throw the malefactor out.

Moot doesn't care about /jp/. Moot doesn't ban people for shitposting on /jp/. Moot shitposts himself.
Do you have any proof that Yukari doesn't kill herself? Or has Ran kill for her?

The barrier wasn't even created by Yukari alone.

>> No.8948583

>>8948555
I'm not angry. it's the truth.

She's no different than apologizes who admonish people for their intolerance or what have you but never stop to think that maybe there's a reason for that fear in the first place. In this case, the fact that youkai kill and eat humans and do so with as much remorse or sympathy as a bear eats a deer.

She wants the deer to embrace the bear in friendship and tolerance while telling the bear it's ok to keep eating the deer.

>> No.8948582

>>8948497
yes it is interesting.
It (as usual) could be interpreted a number of ways right now.
A: Kanako takes on a 2nd shrine maden from one of the female youkai to get more youkai to come to her shrine
B: Sanae's powers are increasing so much that she is starting down the road of Patchouli and Alice to becoming a magical creature.
C:?
Probably there are other possibilities but those are the two ideas that leap from the page to me.

>> No.8948585

>>8948496
It took a desire-reader (not a mind reader) to know the MC's motivation after 16 years.

Reimu needs Miko as a counselor seeing as how she's probably the only one that understands her, besides maybe Yukari but that hag hasn't done jack in years.

>> No.8948587

>>8948570
Now wait a moment:

>Miko seems to be the only acceptable one, or should I say, the least dangerous one.
or
>It's still a mistake to try to change Gensokyo at all from what it is right now.

Please pick one. You cannot have both. This is because Miko wishes to exterminate all of the youkai and have the humans take over. Do you not think that will change Gensokyo from how it is right now?

>> No.8948598

>>8948496
Reimu is the player self insert.
She just want to take it easy, unmotivated and be lazy.

>> No.8948600

>>8948582
>B: Sanae's powers are increasing so much that she is starting down the road of Patchouli and Alice to becoming a magical creature.

Don't go there, Gensokyo isn't a powerlevel-based evolution environment, each species change requires being born as a being that can turn into such species AND a specific requirement.

Sanae is half-goddess.

>> No.8948613

>>8948598
Akyuu said that Reimu's laziness vanishes the moment she is notified of an incident and goes off to solve it instantly. She has a ''lazy personality'' to be more accurate.

>Reimu is the player self insert.

That's just baloney.

>> No.8948615

>>8948583
Really? Hey, did you know that humans kill for the sake of food all the time? No, I'm not saying that's wrong. Quite the opposite. It's to show that killing is deeply ingrained in Nature itself, and is not necessarily "wrong."

A youkai's duty is to attack humans. So says Reimu herself. Akyuu says the same thing. And furthermore, their main motivation is to acquire delicious meals. It's the same motivation that many humans have for killing those deers and bears you mentioned.

>> No.8948635

>>8948542
Uh, no our common sense is Gensokyo's common sense on several levels.
1. Gods and Youkai are anthropomorpisations of natural phenomonon and non-human creatures. As the name implies they have become half or more human in order for people to understand their behavior. So there is NO reason why they would NOT follow common sense.
Also, the better part of SoPM is four of the characters talking about manipulating the population of Gensokyo through common HUMAN desires. If Gensokyo youkai don't still follow human reasoning then the six chapters of the current book are meaningless.

>> No.8948640

>>8948615
Reimu says that youkai just needs to ''act'' its role because that's how Gensokyo was organized, not necessarily go full berserk, because Gensokyo is way more relaxed than it used to be.

>> No.8948641

>>8948615
>Really? Hey, did you know that humans kill for the sake of food all the time? No, I'm not saying that's wrong. Quite the opposite. It's to show that killing is deeply ingrained in Nature itself, and is not necessarily "wrong."

There's nothing wrong.

The difference is that no one is telling human's prey to love all humans and hold hands with them while they're being mechanically slaughtered like Byakuren is. If they were, they'd be just a foolish. Youkai can eat all they want, but if they want to, then I see no reason why humans should be discouraged from exterminating a threat. That, too, is a part of nature.

If Bayreuth wants everyone of to live in peace and harmony so badly, she should start encouraging youkai to find alternative food sources.

>> No.8948649

>>8948635
>Gods and Youkai are anthropomorpisations of natural phenomonon and non-human creatures. As the name implies they have become half or more human in order for people to understand their behavior.
"Anthropomorphization" is merely the process of something gaining a humanoid form. That says nothing about how they will act, or how they will think. Furthermore:

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_1
Kanako: The outside world and Gensokyo are separate. It's like the difference between common sense and lacking common sense, or the difference between reality and fantasy.

Next?

>> No.8948644

>>8948585
I'd say Kasen understands her a lot more. I think the hermit club is getting a little crowded.

>> No.8948657

>>8948635
>Uh, no our common sense is Gensokyo's common sense on several levels.

Really now?

>This jackass bitch thinks she can cause an incident and do whatever she wants without punishment, I'll exterminate her ass the moment I catch her

>Oh hey you want some tea? Let's be friends forever!

or

>Hey hey, look! I caught this burglar stealing from some library! Guess I'll just interview her instead of doing anything to stop her.

or the fact that absolutely everything affects everyone and reality itself in some way, be it moods, continous actions of whatever kind, object placing in specific locations, rituals, etc. that all pander to Japanese mythology.

>> No.8948660

>>8948641
Yes.

Now consider that:
1. Byakuren wishes to end the entire Humans vs. Youkai tradition and have them coexist peacefully.
2. Byakuren has found a way for the youkai to cease attacking humans and still retain their existence.

It all makes more sense now, right?

>> No.8948663

>>8948644
Actually Kasen seems to have an outsider-ish mind, she once believed that Reimu needed training to release her from wealth desires, when in the end it turned out to be that it wasn't greed per se but just the purity of her and the human character, according to Komachi.

>> No.8948666

>>8948635
On another level, Touhou was written by ZUN, and he is a human (at least according to published sources) so the characters in his work are going to follow human reasoning.

Where would he have gotten an example of
NON-human reasoning to copy? No-one has ever seen one.

>> No.8948681

>The barrier wasn't even created by Yukari alone.

But none of those who helped her could do it without her either. And its pretty explicit that she controls it, even if the raw power is borrowed.
Having to form a coalition to perform your basic task would also tend to make one more interested in helping to keep the peace.

>> No.8948678

>>8948613
Most people play as Reimu in the game anon.

>> No.8948694

>>8948666

it's fiction. ZUN can totally make characters act with non-human reasoning, are you kidding me? That's what fantasy is. If we could only write about things in "reality" we would not have fictions. All you need to do is take human reasoning and tweak it, mess with it. It is by no means impossible. Besides "human reasoning and morality" are not things intrinsic to reality, but social constructions that have been developed over centuries. Just as they were created, they can be destroyed, especially in a fantasy.

>> No.8948701

>>8948666
It's really not as weird as all of you make it out to be.

Youkai have their own thoughts, just like humans do.

Humans have a wide variety of different thoughts. Humans from the ancient world will think very differently from modern humans. Humans from Japan will think very differently than humans from Murrika. There are even many humans who do not act like humans "normally" do.

What does it mean to think anyway? Isn't it just information processing that is driven by emotion? Even for youkai, that much is probably true.

However, does that automatically mean that these youkai will think exactly like you and I do? Certainly not.

>> No.8948716

>>8948649
Not entirely wrong because in our world people die, don't fly, cannot shoot lightning, so its fantasy.
But the population of Gensokyo behave exactly like a human would if a human could not die, could fly, could shoot lightning, could change forms. They use their abilites to to protect themselvs, feed themselves, and entertain themselves exactly as we would if we had their abilities.
So she is wrong. But thats probably only going to be the plot of the next game when these three try to "organize" Gensokyo for the "greater good" and cause a mess when it doesn't work.

>> No.8948726

>>8948701
But we haven't yet had an example of a youkai not thinking like a human would, in the same position, with the same power.

>> No.8948750

>>8948716
Okay, we clearly just have different ideas of common sense going on here.

The way I see it, "common sense" refers to the ways of thinking that are commonly accepted by human society today. Things like "violence is bad." Would you think that someone is thinking like a human if they say that violence is just another fun pastime? What if they say that even when some people have died as a result of it?

However, as you said, a human could certainly reach the point where they think in that manner, without too much difficulty. It isn't hard to imagine that a human would do that if the circumstances were different enough.

>>8948726
We haven't had an example of anyone's thoughts at all. I mean, unless you're Satori and you can read the character's minds. As far as I know, we only see their words.

>> No.8948743

>>8948678
You apparently don't know what "self-insert" means.

>> No.8948762

>>8948136
ITT: Akyu's prejudices against youkai become more and more apparent. Won't this girl die already? Maybe Ajuu (??) returns more mellow.

>> No.8948767

>>8948762
ITT: People dislike the fact that a character doesn't act like they want them to and for that reason alone, decide that Akyuu is lying.

>> No.8948765

At this point I will be severely disappointed if TH14 is NOT a multiplayer a la PoDD and PoFV.
We need to have a war between the factions. the new comer Shinto, Buddhists and Taoists and the oldies from the earlier games. Or maybe a team from each faction? SDM, Hakugyoukurou, Eientei, Higan, Moriya, etc.

>> No.8948774

>>8948660
Somehow I feel Byakuren is not good regarding laws of human justice, let me explain.

She doesn't perceive justice from a human point of view, she seeks her justice based in the natural order, Youkai eating humans and being predators as well she recognizes human desire to survive and respects it, humans are free to fight Youkai, they are to free to fight or escape their predators like any wild animal, but.. in the end she accepts that human are the prey despite all the the enforcement by the Hakurei shrine and other Youkai to make things happen otherwise, she won't deny the human right to fight neither Youkai right to predate and attack, Byakuren being a Youkai born human, seems like the right person to take this decision.

Analogically she's a observer that tries to regulate the medium, like a human would never stop a lion from devouring a deer because it's “bad”, but would arrange the terrain in case one of the species were in risk of extinction to save it due to its natural cycle being endangered.

Zun also states lots of times that one of the main characteristics of Youkai, if not the most important, is that they attack humans, this is, literally, the main purpose of existence for these creatures and without it they would banish hence enforcing Youkai to attack humans protect them as well.

>> No.8948777

>>8948726
We have one. It's called Koishi, and everybody in the Symposium immediately got how different she was.

Conclusion: Youkai's thought patterns aren't THAT different from humans. The differences are caused by the obvious differences - they don't fear getting old, they see humans as prey, etc.

>> No.8948780

>>8948762

ITT: if we like what Akyuu says then we take it as canon, if we don't like what Akyuu says she's a prejudiced cunt who doesn't know what she's talking about

>> No.8948786

>>8948780
>>8948767
>>8948762
ITT: We act like faggots
Stop it.

>> No.8948792

>>8948786

He>>8948762 started it!

>> No.8948801

>>8948765
Well from a game construction standpoint it most likely would be a team game. Certainly enough "factions" have been introduced.
But who would Reimu and Marisa side with? They are loners, and they each have only skipped one game a piece before, they cant be left out. Who would form the Hakurei Shrine faction? Reimu, Sukia mabye, and ?
Yukari has enough with her, Ran, and Chen to be a faction herself. Or would she align with Hakurei?

>> No.8948809

>>8948762
>>8948780
Akyuu article on Koishi directly contradicts what we know from Koishi herself, on SA Extra. So, unless Koishi got much worse from that, she's lying.

That part of Nitori's article directly contradicts Nitori's profile (the profiles, you'll notice, are presented by ZUN without the artifice of a fictional writter. They should be truthful unless ZUN is trolling).

>> No.8948816

>>8948801

I could definitely see the Hakurei faction (and therefore the 'main' faction) being Reimu, Marisa, Suika, Yukari and her shikigamis. I could also see an otherworld faction with Shikieki, Komachi, Youmu and Yuyuko. SDM already has enough members, and so does Eientei.
Also, what games did Reimu and Marisa each skip...?

>> No.8948818

>>8948765
Touhou 14 - Eastern Racial Holy War

>> No.8948820

Reimu and Marisa are BFF so they will definitely be together.
After reading WaHH, it would be a disappointment if we dont see Kasen in a game. She seems like someone important to have catch Suika attention.

>> No.8948821

>>8948809

right, so by your logic then there isn't a point whatsoever to the profiles in PMiSS and SoPM, and we should stop discussing them. They are bullshit after all.

I'm not being ironic either, I'm just saying that this is the collective stance we should take if we're to say Akyuu is biased sometimes, she's biased all the time.

>> No.8948825

>>8948801
There are plenty who could fit in the Hakurei Shrine faction.
For one, Reimu and Marisa are not loners, they're BBF's, Marisa would be fine there.
Others include, as you said, Suika, Kasen is also reasonable, and Mima.

I can get behind this idea, even though I'm not really fond of Phantasmagorias.
I'd hope Kogasa would make a surprise appearance though, even though she has no ties to any faction.

>> No.8948826

>>8948820

obviously Kasen is going to be in the 4 devas faction in TH14 - Phantasmagoria of Oriental Crusades

>> No.8948833

>>8948816
Reimu was not in Fairy Wars.
Marisa I think has been in all exept the very first game, Highly Responsive to Prayers.
If I am wrong someone will be along in a few minutes to correct this though.

>> No.8948837

>>8948774
That's not the impression that I'm getting from Byakuren, but it is still a valid one. At the least, she is not compatible with the human idea of justice; we can agree there.

>> No.8948847

>>8948821
Nope, they're very important. But they aren't objective, they're full of Akyuu's bias. This is actually a brilliant move by ZUN, because it creates the discussion we are having here. Everyone is free to understand those profiles as they want and fanworks can continue to flourish in several directions.

>> No.8948844

>>8948825

Kogasa will be in the minor entities faction, headed by Cirno, and including Wriggle, Mystia, etc.
Or more likely she could easily be converted to the Myoren temple since Byakuren is very pro-youkai.


But if Marisa ended up siding with the Hakurei, that would leave Alice hanging. Maybe a magicians faction with Alice, Marisa, Yuuka? Although I prefer Yuuka as a loner that just fucks everyone's shit single handedly. I don't really see her as a team person.

>> No.8948853

>>8948833

oh I thought you meant all the main franchise games in the post PC-98 era. Reim and Marisa make appearances in Shoot the Bullet and Double Spoiler? I haven't played them

>> No.8948860

>>8948853
Yeah, they are both in DS and StB.
You can even danmaku with Suika.

>> No.8948859

>>8948820
Yeah, Marisa and Reimu have been in the endings, and in between art. But you have never been able to put them togeather on one team under one players control in a game before. I think largely because they would be too powerful.

>> No.8948877
File: 1.94 MB, 2328x1688, 1315978618442.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8948877

>>8948844
But, would Reimu, Marisa and Alice togeather work? Perhaps with Sukia if a 4th is needed?

wow, that would make this drawing come true-well without the guns

>> No.8948878

Have you guy's read Cirno's page? Holy shit.

>> No.8948890

Reimu has been brainwashed from Aya's trick that made her read all the papers. She's been thoroughly persuaded by sensationalist tengu yellow journalism that only records the youkai shenanigans.

>> No.8948894

>>8948890
So Tengu don't consider themselves youkai?

Also, in a Touhou faction war, which side would the Tengu side with?
Or would they just say they were neutral, spy on everyone and sell it calling it news?

>> No.8948895

>>8948878

you mean on the wiki? cuz she doesn't have a profile in SoPM, unless you mean her hatate article with marisa, which hasn't been translated.

>> No.8948906

>>8948844
I wouldn't be surprised if Alice joins a Hakurei faction. In her endings of the fighting games she usually ends up talking to Reimu about the current happenings and in her SWR good end she show a concern for Gensoukyo's safety.

I would expect her to join Reimu since with gensoukyo in her "rule", the forest has been left undisturbed. Who knows what the other factions want to do with the forest? Build a small Youkai only village?

>> No.8948903

>>8948894

Aya wouldn't be in TH14, but then TH14.5 would be another shoot the bullet esque game in which Aya is covering the war of the previous game, getting scoops from all sides and not siding with anyone.

in TH15 she is executed for trading information between the factions

>> No.8948914

>>8948894
When Aya was talking to Eiki the argument was that Aya was just doing what she thought was the right thing to do, which was recording everything and sensationalizing some things to make it more interesting to read. All in pretty altruistic. However Eiki pointed out that she was manipulating events even if she didn't intend to. So I don't think it's some scheme from the Tengu to turn Reimu against youkai. It's just two coinciding events of Aya writing papers that mostly have negative things because they're more interesting to read, as well as the trick Aya played on Reimu to make her read all her papers as punishment for never reading them.

>> No.8948918

>>8948906

well if Moriya won they'd probably tear down the forest in their process of massive industrialization of Gensokyo

>> No.8948941

>>8948918
I don't think that's necessarily the case. Kanako implies that she wants to bring technological advancement to Gensokyo without the physical and spiritual drawbacks that the outside world suffered as a result of industrial progressiveness.

>> No.8948956

>>8948941
So she wants to create her own paradise, then?

>> No.8948961

>>8948903
Ok, that was funny.
The sad thing is after all this cool speculation probably most of us are going to be disappointed when TH14 does appear next year or 2014.
I am sure the script is written and SoPM and it have some common material but there is no way to tell what in it is.
Even for a 2014 release date (hey TH14 in 14' sounds cool) ZUN and his wife would already have to be writing code right now wouldn't they?

>> No.8948969

>>8948956
So it seems. Kanako is arrogant enough to think she can make a perfect paradise.

>> No.8948970

>>8948956
She thinks she can.
But look at how successful her attempts to date have been

>> No.8948978

>>8948878
?

>> No.8948984

>>8948969
Doesn't everyone want to live in a place where they can be happy? Even better, why not create that place yourself? How is that arrogant?
>>8948970
I would say that her plans seem to have had some measure of success. What do you mean?

>> No.8948988

>>8948890
Actually, those reports cover incidents as you may know, Reimu herself watched those in person. While most likely there's also other random youkai attacks, Reimu was just using the papers as visual proof that youkai weren't all poor hapless saps.

She just wanted to dissolve the meeting in the end anyway, her status as Gensokyo moderator was at risk.

I really want to see Miko chatting with her seeing as how she's the only one that understands her true desires, but judging by ZUN's extremely partial char development for characters in each work, it's gonna take WaHH's ending to get there I presume.

>> No.8948999

>>8948961

You're right, but we can always hope can't we?
Besides, even if our speculations don't come true in the next game I'm fairly certain that the fandom will make doujins with religious wars as the theme and all the factions fighting it out. I mean, how could someone, as a doujin artist, not think of something like this after reading SoPM?
One thing is certain: next comiket will being a lot of very amazing works.

>>8948969

nothing wrong with trying anon. as long she doesn't go genocidal or something similar

>> No.8949006

the real mystery is how marisa can continue living if she's one of yuugi's drinking buddies

>> No.8949018

>>8949006
She's motherfuckin' Marisa Kirisame after all. You don't fuck with the B&W. As far as I know, Mamizou and Marisa are the only non-onis that can match the onis.

>> No.8949029

>>8948970
If her status as moderator were really at risk, if it really could be threatened, do you think her Best Bud Forever Marisa would be a part of it.

I know Marisa can be amoral, but taking some food or a book now and then and helping remove your friends livelyhood is a big difference.

Why then was Marisa there? Why was she allowed to be there? Did the Miare need an escort?

>> No.8949024

>>8949018
The Tengu drink almost as much as the Oni do, but I guess it's true that most of them probably can't quite match an Oni...

Though really, Marisa is still a human. Obviously she's not just gulping down gallons of it at a time. Things don't work that way...

>> No.8949037

>>8949024
but I am sure Marisa uses each time as training to increase her capacity.
And their might be some magic that helps to breakdown alcohol or mitigate its effects.

>> No.8949047
File: 140 KB, 605x535, 1328427274284.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8949047

>>8949037
It's possible. That's probably how she got her eye color, too. That begs the question, though, why Marisa doesn't increase her height and breast size, so she isn't so tiny. I mean, the only ones tinier than her are the anima