/jp/ did you do your kanji today? It is very important that you don't forget your reps.

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Anonymous Tue Jan 3 16:39:23 2012 No.8345696 [Reply] [Original]

/jp/ did you do your kanji today? It is very important that you don't forget your reps.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 16:42:53 2012 No.8345710 But it's so hard...

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 16:46:53 2012 No.8345738 Anyone doing KanjiDamage?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 16:47:24 2012 No.8345741 I'll do it tomorrow

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 16:53:54 2012 No.8345773 >>8345738 Yeah I'm around 390ish right now. Hoping to finish by the end of the year, aiming for sooner. It's been getting slower the more I learn, though...

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 16:59:24 2012 No.8345806 >>8345773 The end of the year? It takes 1-3 months to finish RTK/KanjiDamage from start to finish depending on how fast you go.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 17:03:23 2012 No.8345825 Yeah yeah, I'll do it later.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 17:09:23 2012 No.8345856 Leave me alone mom I'm tired and I don't want to go to school today

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 17:09:25 2012 No.8345858 File: 141 KB, 725x575, 1314488779684.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8345710 >>8345741 >>8345825 B-but anon...! Last time this happened you kicked yourself later a-and thought "I could've been done by now" and... and.... nnn....

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 17:23:29 2012 No.8345965 >>8345858 I did say that...

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 17:42:26 2012 No.8346139 I did 20 today.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 18:14:54 2012 No.8346394 File: 22 KB, 182x148, 43543534.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 18:18:26 2012 No.8346423 422 to review and 20 new. Oh well, it's too late, I'll do it tomorrow.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 18:25:26 2012 No.8346470 >>8346394 fake shit to make money for the author

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 18:28:55 2012 No.8346491 I've been stuck on 300 forever. Just can't find the motivation to go over it. To be fair, I got no motivation to do anything whatsoever these days. I did repeat some the day before yesterday though.

Anonymous Tue Jan 3 18:34:26 2012 No.8346525

http://www.mediafire.com/?2lloj6hii1pirpd
I just made this mod of Core 2000 earlier, and I'm going to stick with it.
I've always hesitated to fully use anki, because all of the resources were severely outdated.
But this is easy and simple.

I'll make more decks when I've checked to see if this is as awesome as it seems.

>>	Tokiko Tue Jan 3 19:27:25 2012 No.8346792 >>8345738 >>8345773 Sorry for bumping, but is it reliable? I've just been through its introduction and it captivated me, but I could surely use an external serious opinion.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:30:25 2012 No.8346806 >>8346792 I went through it awhile ago, it's good but I found a few errors in it, so I'd recommend double-checking the readings on another website before you commit to learning what it says.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:33:26 2012 No.8346827 >>8346491 Pretty much this. I got to around 300 and then stopped and now I have to start all over from the beginning and it'll just never happen.

Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:37:26 2012 No.8346848

>>8346806
Oh sure, thank you very much. I'll have a couple tools in hand for that, then. Although I don't think I need to worry about it for a while since I'm nothing but a starter yet.
>>8346792
I forgot to take off that Tokiko's stamp. Sounds ironical to ask for serious answers when I leave the name field like that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:44:58 2012 No.8346881 >3100 reviews due Maybe tomorrow.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:51:25 2012 No.8346937 File: 64 KB, 257x713, 無題.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Post your Kanji deck stats. I'm only doing the 常用 until my Japanese is good, then I'll learn the 900 or so left in Heisig.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:53:25 2012 No.8346946 >>8346525 There's a deck using these sentences on Anki shared library, but it has audio for all of them too. That's what I've been using, although I like your formatting better.

Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:55:55 2012 No.8346962

if you're doing this for the porn, just learn simplified chinese instead. it's a lot easier and the chances are that obscure eroge you want to play has already been translated by a chinese otaku.
i don't understand why don't have more jp->chinese->english translations. if I put enough effort into it, i could translate ataraxia in a couple months.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:55:55 2012 No.8346963 I haven't even started yet. I'll do it one of these years, I'm sure of it.

Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:57:55 2012 No.8346971

Speaking of Core2000, what do you guys use as a 'grammar dictionary' type thing to supplement sentence learning through Anki? Sometimes I come across a strange sentence structure or particle use and it really bothers me not being able to understand the sentence completely & it seems quite hard to find resources relating to grammar usage of specific things.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 19:58:56 2012 No.8346997 >>8346962 Do people really try and learn languages for the porn?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jan 3 20:14:30 2012 No.8347220 >>8346997 >>8346962 I'll read those for the plot!

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 02:37:31 2012 No.8348985 >>8346470 Khatzumoto? He really is Black; it's not a big deal anon.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:01:30 2012 No.8349092 Does anyone doing KanjiDamage ever have trouble remembering the Onyomi? How does it work?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:15:00 2012 No.8349138 eroge everyday

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:15:30 2012 No.8349134 >>8346971 Tae Kim's Grammar Guide is the best grammar resource I know of.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:19:30 2012 No.8349148 If by "do your kanji" you mean play eroge then yes, yes I did.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:22:00 2012 No.8349159 >>8349092 Onyomi? Not really, that's what the mnemonic is for, but then again I learn the meaning and the onyomi and skip the different kunyomi and jukugo because all of it is just too much damn information.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:25:00 2012 No.8349166 Not to start this argument, but which one is better RTK or Kanji Damage

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:26:00 2012 No.8349171 >>8349159 Then how do you typically recall it? Look at kanji -> remember story -> remember Onyomi? Seems like a stretch.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:28:30 2012 No.8349180 File: 85 KB, 260x835, Kanjidamage.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I should stop being lazy when it comes to adding newly seen kanji on there.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:29:30 2012 No.8349183 >>8349180 >13% first seen

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:32:00 2012 No.8349193

>>8349166

Neither one is 'better', they both have somewhat inaccurate meanings, and the story aspect should be largely up to your imagination. However, ultimately the meanings given are fairly irrelevant, it's just supposed to be a keyword that you can call upon in your brain to help you remember a specific character, when you see it, or when you need to write it. I prefer RTK though because KanjiDamage just seems more immature, and I don't like that a lot of the Kanji keywords are just common words using the Kanji instead of an actual meaning. It's probably helpful for the readings but you don't really need to learn that at the same time as you're learning the character itself, you can learn it later through vocab, which you'll be doing a lot of anyway.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:32:30 2012 No.8349192

>>8349183
I stopped failing first seen cards at some point. Instead I opened a notepad to the edge of my screen where I'd have all the kanji of the day and I'd just constantly look at them throughout the day. I use the same technique for vocab, works pretty well.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:37:00 2012 No.8349211 >>8345696 It is still 10:35 am, I'll do it later, mom. >>8346937 I have several decks and it is not like you know russian to read stats.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:39:30 2012 No.8349214

>>8346962
>and the chances are that obscure eroge you want to play has already been translated by a chinese otaku.
Only a small percentage of the eroge I've read in Japanese have had Chinese patches, and most of them weren't even that obscure. I'm going by vndb though.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:41:30 2012 No.8349219

I don't see why everyone gets so worked up about kanji, to me it was fairly easy to go through all of them (the jouyou). Just learning vocab and grammar is a lot tougher and takes more motivation. Maybe just 'cause I don't really like manga or anime so I don't particularly enjoy exposing myself to the language most of the time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:42:30 2012 No.8349221 File: 10 KB, 240x509, qqqqs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8349171 For me, it's radicals -> story linking radicals -> definition and onyomi. I'm not sure how that's a stretch.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:42:30 2012 No.8349222 >>8349219 >Maybe just 'cause I don't really like manga or anime so I don't particularly enjoy exposing myself to the language most of the time. That's what games are for, anon-kun.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:45:00 2012 No.8349231 >>8349222 I don't really like many games either, and if I do it's mostly fast paced things that don't have much dialogue, like fighting games/quake/etc.. The only game I really enjoyed playing recently was Dark Souls.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:48:01 2012 No.8349243 >>8349231 Then why are you learning Japanese/why are you here?

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 03:58:32 2012 No.8349269

>>8349243

Mainly for the challenge, I thought it'd be interesting to try and learn a language like Chinese or Japanese. As for why I'm here, this board has some enjoyable threads. I don't have anything against Japanese culture, I just don't personally like anime/manga/video-games all that much. Now I feel like an idiot for posting about myself like anyone cares.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 04:05:30 2012 No.8349285

Words/phrases are just as important as kanji IMO to do translations/transcribing.

I'm currently working on some audio commentaries, and I came across these words, words which you probably won't see in everyday life. Let's see if /jp/ understands them... without looking it up first.

貞操観念

その場しのぎ

せせこましい

in before "I use those phrases everyday"

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 04:07:00 2012 No.8349291 Anyone doing KanjiDamage have any advice for remembering the Onyomi?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 04:10:00 2012 No.8349299 >>8349269 What the fuck bro, this entire board is anime, and games! There is nothing else on /jp/! Surely you meant /r9k/?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 04:12:30 2012 No.8349307 >>8349269 >don't personally like anime/manga/video-games You've come to the right place. May you be welcomed here.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 04:15:31 2012 No.8349316 File: 298 KB, 800x1130, 24326723.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] kanji is for chumps.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 04:28:32 2012 No.8349351 >>8349299 >this entire board is anime We have a board for anime here, and it's not this one. Just saying.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 04:41:31 2012 No.8349390 Alright so Kana -> Kanji with Anki (RTK/KDamage) -> Exposure to media, and grinding of vocab as it comes up. You can pass JLPT 1 with with this. On that note, if you take JLPT 5 and fail it, you should probably quit life.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 05:19:32 2012 No.8349468 >>8349390 What step are you on?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 05:25:02 2012 No.8349492 >>8349316 Always makes me cringe.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 06:21:32 2012 No.8349616
File: 135 KB, 220x797, stats.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8345696
Not yet, I just woke up. I usually do them just before going to bed.
I've been pretty busy for the last two months so I didn't really add many new kanji. Probably going to start adding again now.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 06:26:33 2012 No.8349636 File: 60 KB, 941x501, Minene.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] What bitch be stealing my eyepatch?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 06:37:33 2012 No.8349681 File: 70 KB, 241x955, Capture1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] First couple of months spent smoothly, but now it's tedious.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 09:18:04 2012 No.8350335 bump

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 09:29:37 2012 No.8350372 >>8349316 Damn, that is some epic trolling. Feel bad for anyone who went through this thinking it was real.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 09:35:34 2012 No.8350393 >>8350372 I believed it when I first saw it. (It was a while ago when I had just finished "mastering" hiragana and katakana) Lucky for me, I believed it but didn't follow it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 09:38:34 2012 No.8350402 >>8350372 >>8350393 How could anyone ever believe that? I sorry for you two as being born with mental deficiencies must be difficult.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 09:40:04 2012 No.8350418 >>8350402 I, the second poster, was just starting out and wasn't too sure about what to believe. Fortunately, I have the guidance of wise Anons like yourself to guide me in my studies.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 09:45:04 2012 No.8350440

>>8350402
By not knowing any better, that's how. Lay off beginners.

How fast do you guys progress though new kanji in RTK? I feel like I'm not attaching the kanji with the keyword very well. Stuff is so slow to get out past a month in Anki. And even then I forget half of it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 09:48:04 2012 No.8350452 >>8350440 Varies. 10-50 a day seems to be the average amounts; though some people have tried 100 a day. Better retention should come with time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 09:49:35 2012 No.8350454 >>8346946 That's the one I modded. I couldn't get the audio playing properly, so I removed the field. If I figure out how to get it playing with the new formatting, I'll notice you.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 10:36:34 2012 No.8350585

>>8350454
>>8346946
I managed to get audio as well as new formatting working, and I'm very pleased.
I didn't like the images, so I removed them.

You can download it by downloading the audio and the .anki file from these links:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/1itzmjondnz/kore-sound-sentences-munged.zip
http://www.mediafire.com/?8uqu1g8ifz6gzwt
and placing them in your Anki folder in My Documents.

I very much recommend doing so, if you're at the level where you understand Hiragana and Katakana, but don't know what to do next.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 11:25:43 2012 No.8350795 Beginner here. Should I learn the entire grammar first before starting with Kanji? It seems completely retarded trying to learn a fuckton of kanji without being able to actually use them but several people recommended that I already start.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 11:29:31 2012 No.8350814 >>8350795 Do not formally study grammar.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jan 4 12:54:33 2012 No.8351250 Did 40 yesterday.... just finished 25 today.

Anonymous Wed Jan 4 18:35:38 2012 No.8352767

>>8350795
Yeah, it seems retarded, but you can actually learn a lot more faster. I'd scan through TaeKim's a bit, then get a copy of your favorite manga.

Most "grammar" is actually just special words or words used in special ways. Knowing more kanji means you'll understand more words at first glance and have a better chance of figuring out the sentence. After a bit, the grammar just...clicks. It's a good feeling. Formal grammar explanations don't do that and are probably more confusing. You just need tons of examples, so get all the Japanese books you're going to want now.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 03:42:13 2012 No.8355577 j-jp! Please don't slack!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 03:44:12 2012 No.8355594 Should I take the Japanese courses at my local college or should I learn on my own?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 03:45:12 2012 No.8355604 >>8355594 Classes suck.

Kudryavka !!wEyYEw5OlKU Thu Jan 5 03:46:12 2012 No.8355610

>>8355594
Japanese courses are for people who learn slowly and have no motivation to do it on their own time. If you don't care about covering less than 100 kanji in the first year and are too lazy to study on your own, taking classes is certainly better than trying and failing to study on your own.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 03:58:42 2012 No.8355674

I'm still on babby's first hiragana, as I only decided to start yesterday. あhas been stuck in my head since before then, however, because some genius/shithead said remember it by imagining someone directing someone else's attention to their sequence of repeated digits.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:32:43 2012 No.8355850 Any KanjiDamage learners here?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:33:13 2012 No.8355861 The last time I was serious about learning kanji I kept seeing them everywhere. There's one traffic sign that looks like 止

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:36:44 2012 No.8355866 >>8355850 Nope. Obenkyo master race here. Having it on the phone is easier since you can do it anywhere and anytime while commuting.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:38:43 2012 No.8355879 >>8350372 >epic trolling. >babby's first hiragana >Obenkyo master race Go back to /a/.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:39:43 2012 No.8355882 >epic trolling. >babby's first hiragana >Obenkyo master race Go back to /a/.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:42:13 2012 No.8355898 I barely know 30 kanji because of my laziness. Don't make me do things.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:43:43 2012 No.8355899

I took up to AP Japanese in High School and learned about 2000 kanji using physical flashcards, Anki (really neat flashcard software), Genki 1+2, and Youkoso 2. A good suggestion is to download the pdfs of Genki 1 & 2 (and youkoso if you can find it) and manually enter the vocab and kanji into Anki and review the material for at least 20 minutes a day.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:46:45 2012 No.8355921 Does everyone actually learn 2000 kanji in 6 months are you guys all trolling? It's true I never managed to study those obsessively but it took me like a year to learn around 500 kanji perfectly. I feel slow and stupid as shit now.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:50:45 2012 No.8355938 >>8355921 Everyone feels that way when they're woken up from the Matrix.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:53:13 2012 No.8355949 File: 109 KB, 310x442, kaiji.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] yea, kanji is a pretty cool guy, he gambles and shit

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:55:43 2012 No.8355956 >>8355949 A faggot who can't stop crying.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:55:43 2012 No.8355958 >>8355921 It took me a year and a half to build a vocabulary that encompassed all ~2100 jouyou kanji (and some others) without actually focusing on leaning kanji.

Kudryavka !!wEyYEw5OlKU Thu Jan 5 04:56:14 2012 No.8355959

>>8355921
You can do 2000 kanji with RTK in less than 6 months, but that's not really learning them. I learned roughly 1,800 kanji in about 2 years and I thought that was pretty damn good progress. Going much faster than that would probably only be possible if you took studying to the point of an obsession or you skipped over stuff you didn't think was "important".

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 04:57:14 2012 No.8355967 >>8355959 You're just slow considering Khatzumoto and others (Alks) knew 2000+ kanji and had Japanese good enough to survive job interviews in Japan in 18 months.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:04:14 2012 No.8355996 Should I even try to bother with kanji pronounciations per kanji or should I try to focus more on actual words?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:07:44 2012 No.8356006 >>8355996 Learn readings from context.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:08:15 2012 No.8356008 >>8355996 Actual words. You only see people going on about how many kanji they've "learned" because it naturally lends itself to dickwaving on the Internet.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:09:14 2012 No.8356021 >>8356015 Terrible progress.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:09:45 2012 No.8356015

>>8355921
It was something like this for me:
Japanese 1 + 2: ~200 total (Year 1)
Japanese 3 + 4: ~750 total (Year 2)
Japanese 5 + AP: ~2000 total (Year 3)

Initially, it is all about getting immersed in the language and used to studying Japanese on a daily basis. Once you are in the habit of studying kanji, grammar, and vocabulary (this may take several months of commitment), you can gradually increase the volume of material to learn.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:09:45 2012 No.8356018 >>8356006 >>8356008 Along those lines, does anyone have some good Anki sets for vocab? I've got a decent grasp on grammar, but my vocab sucks and making an Anki set from scratch seems rather daunting.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:12:45 2012 No.8356035 >>8356018 >making an Anki set from scratch seems rather daunting. It's not, it's what I did. Just read progressively larger scraps of Japanese and copy paste the words you don't know into the deck.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:13:44 2012 No.8356040 RTK or Kanji Damange. Which one and why?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:14:44 2012 No.8356045 >>8356040 Kanji Damage because fuck RTK

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:14:44 2012 No.8356046 >>8356040 Kanjidamage. Heisig doesn't teach you Japanese.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:16:44 2012 No.8356050 >>8356046 >>8356045 Not him, but there's a lot of arguments saying going Kanji -> Keyword on cards is a bad idea which KanjiDamage does.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:21:14 2012 No.8356083

>>8356015
I see. I did notice I started picking up things much faster since I started reading. Especially stuff like the pronoun kanji and common jukugo.

Actually what frustrates me with anki-style learning is that I don't feel like enough emphasis is put on the useful stuff. You end up trying to remember how to read/write "prefecture" every day and you quickly skip over vital vocabulary like "gaze" or "angry".

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:24:14 2012 No.8356106 >>8356050 Why?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:24:44 2012 No.8356098 >>8355882 There is nothing wrong with obenkyo. The kanjis are group in JLPT level, of course kanjidamage has better memory technique with its witty explanation but having a program that you can write while you are commuting and outside is pretty useful.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:24:44 2012 No.8356101 >>8356040 RTK. Too much info with Kanjidamage.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:25:14 2012 No.8356112 >>8356098 That's what SRS is, it's supposed to focus your attention on the things you haven't yet commited to memory.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:27:44 2012 No.8356119

>>8356106

>To get the benefits of developing your iconic knowledge of the kanji, optimize spaced retrieval, desirable difficulty, etc., you don't want to give yourself the answer to how to visualize and construct the kanji from the primitives on the front of the card, nor do you want to memorize the keyword (why would you do that?) by making that the target information. The primitive framework ought to occupy a nebulous space as a primarily conceptual and secondarily textual scaffolding, a supplementary abstraction that is triggered by an eventually-backgrounded keyword (hence its use as a cue), that allows you to bring the kanji to mind in an instant. Doing it kanji to keyword, using shallow mnemonics, sticking stuff on the front, that can seem easier in the short-term, but you're just cheating yourself and you'll end up spending more time repeating stuff and taking longer to make it into robust knowledge.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:38:14 2012 No.8356168 Anyone know of a good site for learning strike order. I seem to learn kanji much faster when I actually physically write them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:39:14 2012 No.8356175 >>8356168 jisho.org

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:40:14 2012 No.8356176 >>8356168 The rules for stroke order are fairly generalized, there's like all of two pages about it in the textbook I studied out of. You don't need stroke order for each individual character.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:41:14 2012 No.8356184 >>8356168 Do Kanji in Genki and you should have a pretty good sense of stroke orders for any Kanji. Otherwise Jisho the Kanji.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:42:44 2012 No.8356191

>>8355921
I just memorized 1000 kanji in less than a month (in addition to what I already knew, that is).

But I'm not bothering writing them down or trying to memorize each and every pronunciation (or any at all, for, say, rarely used radicals) until I get to words that contain them. It's counterproductive, what matters is recognizing the symbol.

>>8356083
Nobody ever said flashcards are the only way to learn. They just help with mindless tasks of pure memorization - which, unfortunately, are what learning Japanese consists of to a high degree.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:46:44 2012 No.8356206 Anyone have any experience with the Yokoso books?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:51:14 2012 No.8356224 keigo is annoying as shit

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 05:57:46 2012 No.8356250

>>8356191

If you encounter a kanji you haven't seen before:

You can't pronounce it.
You can't pronounce the word it's in.
You can however, tie some narrow english keyword to its broad meaning and proceed to take futile stabs at guessing what the kanji means in this context and what the word means overall according to some vague caveman rendition of English in the form of two or three word phrases like "honorable nothing sand luxury" (御無沙汰) or with something less particular like 抄本, "extract present", "summary true", "spread thin long objects" or "copy book".

"Recognizing symbols" isn't a useful thing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:00:44 2012 No.8356258 1. Study Kanji 2. Get to the level where you can understand VNs and LNs 3. Stop studying kanji 4. Forever mediocre Anyone else?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:15:46 2012 No.8356311 >>8356250 The keyword isn't important; you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand. It's not our fault you wasted 4 years in class.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:16:15 2012 No.8356317

>>8356250
>If you encounter a kanji you haven't seen before

Obviously, that's precisely why you need to make the effort to see them before you read (or at least as fast as possible after you see it).

>"Recognizing symbols" isn't a useful thing.

Recognizing symbols is literally all learning language is about.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:18:46 2012 No.8356325

>>8356311

You didn't picked up any kind of tangible knowledge and yet you drone on the Internet telling people you've "learned" 1000 kanji in a month (thanks Doctor Heisig!). You're exactly the sort of person glazing over the language and picking up nothing but pretending otherwise as suspected by >>8355921

I've never taken a Japanese class.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:23:47 2012 No.8356335

>>8356317

I meant to write:
>If you encounter a word you haven't seen before

>Recognizing symbols is literally all learning language is about.

Thats like saying botany is about molecular science because plants are made of atoms. Things are more than the sum of their parts and Japanese words are more abstract than reading kanji and inserting their meaning into a sentence.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:24:44 2012 No.8356342

>>8356311

You didn't pick up any kind of tangible knowledge and yet you drone on the Internet telling people you've "learned" 1000 kanji in a month (thanks Doctor Heisig!). You're exactly the sort of person glazing over the language and picking up nothing but pretending otherwise as suspected by >>8355921

I've never taken a Japanese class.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:30:44 2012 No.8356373 >>8356258 I don't really get it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:32:46 2012 No.8356385 Your homework: Remembering The Kanji Genki I (and it's workbook and kanji book) Genki II (and it's workbook and kanji book) An Integrated Approach to Intemediate Japanese Authentic Japanese Progressing From Intermediate To Advanced

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:33:15 2012 No.8356393 [DELETED]

>>8356325

That other person wasn't me. I've been studying for a year, completed RTK1, can write and read ~3000 kanji from memory with my eyes closed, and can read complex VNs (thanks Doctor Heisig), and even difficult jukugo are easy to learn.

On the other hand what do you have? Nothing. You're going to continue to stay jealous, and you're japanese is going to continue to stay shit. Enjoy~.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:33:46 2012 No.8356390 Day one: Hirigana and half of Katakana. My body is ready for day two.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:35:14 2012 No.8356399

>>8356342

That other person wasn't me. I've been studying for a year, completed RTK1, can write and read ~3000 kanji from memory with my eyes closed, and can read complex VNs, and even difficult jukugo are easy to learn. On the other hand what do you have? Nothing.

I understand that you're jealous, but just because we're accomplishing anything you might've in a fraction of the time doesn't mean you can throw a baby fit. Sorry, but you lose.

Take your butthurt elsewhere.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:36:44 2012 No.8356400 >>8356393 You can read with your eyes closed? Wow, I am jealous. >You're going to continue to stay jealous, and you're japanese is going to continue to stay shit. Enjoy~. >you're japanese At least my Engilsh won't degrade., though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:37:14 2012 No.8356407 faggot faggot

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:38:14 2012 No.8356408 >>8356400 >red herrings >ad hominems Glad you've accepted your defeat. >At least my Engilsh won't degrade., though. >., 0/10.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:38:45 2012 No.8356413 >>8356393 You can read with your eyes closed? Wow, I am jealous. >You're going to continue to stay jealous, and you're japanese is going to continue to stay shit. Enjoy~. >you're japanese At least my Engilsh won't degrade, though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:38:45 2012 No.8356414 >>8356407 newfag newfag

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:39:14 2012 No.8356419 I'm too high level to have any need for reps.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:40:14 2012 No.8356421 >>8356413 >red herrings >ad hominems Glad you've accepted your defeat. >At least my Engilsh won't degrade., though. >., 0/10.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:41:15 2012 No.8356427

>>8356342
You probably meant to reply to me, not the guy you actually did reply to.

>You didn't pick up any kind of tangible knowledge

I don't know if you consider it "tangible knowledge", but I can now read doujinshi much faster, which is good enough for me. And I've never used or seen anything by Heisig.

>>8356335
No, it's not, you retard. Botany is not about molecules. Language is, however, all about symbols. The entire goddamn point of language is to be a symbolic representation of things you cannot show and demonstrate (either because you have none of them around or because they're intangible concepts).

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:43:44 2012 No.8356434 >>8356408 >At least my Engilsh won't degrade., though. >., Uh oh! You caught my typos! Boy am I red now! If you weren't the person I was responding then you don't have place in this conversation, congratulations on your success.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:44:14 2012 No.8356440 File: 69 KB, 815x1264, 1321154684449.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8356434 Stop trying. You've made yourself look stupid enough after being wrong in front of everyone, so I'm actually starting to feel bad now.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:45:14 2012 No.8356441

>>8355958
That's me. I took some pauses, the actual time is something like half a year. I didn't bother to remember their writing however (well, excluding some hundred+ or so basic kanjis maybe) 'cause it is too much of excessive overload and of no use to me as well. I still striggle with ~100 kanjis normally.

Also, Japanese language classes aren't anything good. Their pace of learning is normally slow and studing there might turn one into a passive learner.
Just take Anki, DoJGx3 and something to read.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:46:14 2012 No.8356444 SO do I focus on remembering what a Kanji means or do I focus on what words it can build and it's kun and on pronunciations?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:48:14 2012 No.8356448 >>8356444 You should focus on everything you listed there. And it is not too much. At least you may skip trying to remember how to write it if you don't plan to use japanese that way.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:48:14 2012 No.8356450 >>8356444 Learn readings from context.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:49:15 2012 No.8356457

>>8356427

Language is about words, not phonemes. Nobody parses the latinate roots of words when they read English and likewise Japanese isn't read by chopping words into individual kanji. I know you're trying to have some deep, pedantic meta-theory of language, but I'm saying "durrhurr everything is symbols" it doesn't rationalize anything you've done and exclusively drilling the meanings of kanji is overly-focused on minutae that doesn't have any real value in reading the language.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:49:44 2012 No.8356455 >>8356448 This person doesn't know what he's talking about.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:51:15 2012 No.8356461 >>8356457 The keyword is irrelevant in RTK; no offense but you should learn what you're talking about before you speak.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:51:44 2012 No.8356462 >>8356440 It's funny because you're the only person to use the phrase "butthurt" in this thread.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:52:45 2012 No.8356470 >>8356461 I didn't mention keywords anywhere in that post.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:54:44 2012 No.8356475 >>8356470 Your argument is based around them whether you realize it or not.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:56:21 2012 No.8356486 >>8356455 What would that mean?

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:57:00 2012 No.8356493

>>8356457
>Nobody parses the latinate roots of words when they read English

They parse letters. Which are, surprise, surprise, symbols (just symbolizing sounds instead of meanings).

Japanese write with kanji instead of letters, so you need to parse kanji instead of letters. It's that fucking simple.

And I don't think you actually know any Japanese at all if you don't realize that kanji by themselves are words too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 06:57:51 2012 No.8356492 >>8356475 Are you >>8356191 If you can neither read, pronounce, or now guess at the meaning of kanji, then the discussion pretty much comes full circle; you haven't learned anything whether you say so or not.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:02:45 2012 No.8356508 [DELETED]

>>8356493

Nobody parses letters, there are well known studies where words have had their ordering mixed up apart from certain letters and people have read them at the same speed or barely noticed the difference. People read don't read or speak letters or phonemes, they read and speak words.

Japanese people also read words like we do, and Kanji are seldom a relaible guide to pronunciation or meaning. Maybe you're thinking of Chinese.

>And I don't think you actually know any Japanese at all if you don't realize that kanji by themselves are words too.

Some are, most aren't.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:04:16 2012 No.8356518

>>8356493

Nobody parses letters, there are well known studies where words have had their ordering mixed up apart from certain letters and people have read them at the same speed or barely noticed the difference. People don't read or speak letters or phonemes, they read and speak words.

Japanese people also read words like we do, and Kanji are seldom a relaible guide to pronunciation or meaning. Maybe you're thinking of Chinese.

>And I don't think you actually know any Japanese at all if you don't realize that kanji by themselves are words too.

Some are, most aren't.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:05:45 2012 No.8356521

Why is this board so angry?

Do whatever you think will work. I'm just about finishing up RTK after a steady 6 months at an average rate of 10 new a day. I have a lot of trouble recalling them to write (which I think is due to staring too much at the kanji and not thinking of connecting it to the keyword), but I can read the base meaning of anything you put before me. Very few idiomatic phrases, though. Sadly when classes start up again, they will actually get in the way of my learning. They love useless busywork. I'm trying hard not to rant about it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:09:46 2012 No.8356536 >>8356508 Have you seen anyone able to read without being able to decipher individual letters? Fucking seriously. >Some are, most aren't. Yeah, you simply don't know Japanese at all.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:12:15 2012 No.8356545

My mastery of kanji is fine,　but does anyone else ever feel confused as fuck as to which ones you should bother with and which ones you should just use hiragana for?

When I go to Japan, people say stuff like "Why did you use kanji for that" or "wow, I don't even bother writing that in kanji/forgot" (薔薇).

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:16:15 2012 No.8356562

>>8356518
Not the persone you was "talking" to, but
>Kanji are seldom a relaible guide to pronunciation or meaning
>seldom
>Some are, most aren't.
I want to mention that you are wrong. Kanjis themsleves or kanjis with okurigana are very often words by themselves. And knowing kanjis that compound kango normally (not always of course) makes one able to read it right (some experience is needed also) and (more seldom hovewer) to guess it's meaning.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:18:46 2012 No.8356575

>>8356545
I use them as much as possible, to kind of force myself to learn them. It also helps some stuff make more sense.

Like, 通り when used as grammar. 例：計画通りに上手く行った。 My teachers insist that it's not written with kanji or that it's a different word but if it makes perfect fucking sense if you look at it like that.

Read a lot, and you'll start to see patterns for when kanji is or is not used. Plants and animals and onomatopoeia is use katakana. Less kanji is more childlike; more is more academic.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:19:45 2012 No.8356583 >>8356562 Can you not pluralize the uncountable Japanese nouns? It hurts to read.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:19:45 2012 No.8356585 >>8356545 You could be obnoxious and say "I use the kanji because I'm not an illiterate twat."

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:21:48 2012 No.8356593

>>8356545
Oh my, if you can write "rose" with easy by memory, that's something to be surprised about.
Well, it's mostly experience I believe, like not writing ari/iru/naru/kakaru/etc. You just notice the verbs they don't normally write and don't do so yourself. Other than that, they don't write names of the animals and plants now, usually.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:22:46 2012 No.8356595 >>8356518 It's funny how this guy is telling people, what? Not to learn the kanji so that you can... learn Japanese better?

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:25:15 2012 No.8356608

>>8356536
>Have you seen anyone able to read without being able to decipher individual letters? Fucking seriously.

No, because learning 26 letters of the English alphabet is trivial. That isn't the point though, your brain isn't breaking down every word you see into letters, sounding them out, parsing them for germanic Germanic/Latin/Greek/French roots and then inferring the actual meaning of the word every time you read something. You see "information", and you think "information".

>>8356562

Kanji with okurigana isn't kanji by itself, and stand alone kanji is solidly in the minority in the language. Isolated kanji read by On readings are rarer still, so most standalone kanji are words unto themselves read by kun readings and aren't part of the RTK/Kanjidamage circlejerk. If you're studying kun reading you aren't studying kanji in the sense discussed here, you're studying words themselves.

>And knowing kanjis that compound kango normally (not always of course) makes one able to read it right (some experience is needed also) and (more seldom hovewer) to guess it's meaning.

I'm up to about 5000 in my Anki deck and I continue to see irregular words or new readings of kanji I've already encountered. I'm not saying you can't guess at kanji based on readings or prior knowledge meanings, but it's so inconsistent it's useless, it's akin to the broken system of spelling we have in English with regard to how often it will mislead you when first starting to read.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:25:45 2012 No.8356609 >>8356583 It is because it my language everything, with exception of a few words, is countable...oh well.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:26:16 2012 No.8356612

>>8356593
Well I read stuff with lots of puns, and it's not like I'm in Japan every day, so I tend to think unusual stuff is normal sometimes. Like in bakemonogatari, there are 3 word with the exact same pronunciation with different kanji for each one in nearly every chapter. (ex. 変わる・代わる・化わる） So I tend to remember weird shit.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:31:47 2012 No.8356637

The two standpoints are:

A: Learn words individually, with no concentrated study of kanji

B: Focus on kanji, then all those words

A is more natural, and will work just fine. I think B is quicker and gives you an unusual look at how the language is put together. Studying the meaning of kanji is kind of like studying the latin and german and greek roots of English words to understand them better. The thing in Japanese is that it's just terribly convenient for gaining a lot of ground with (imo) minimum effort and time spent/wasted. I actually shifted my opinion from A to B once I realized the effort and pace of A.

Just so we understand what we're arguing here.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:33:45 2012 No.8356648 Thank you anon. I almost forgot about my anki and iknow sessions

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:43:16 2012 No.8356702

>>8356637
Why not go through the kanji but learn the vocabulary associated with it as you learn each kanji? For instance, you learn the kanji 動, and then to solidify it in your memory you learn words like 動く, 動物, and 運動. Learning to use the kanji in actual words helps you remember it and gives you a nice starting pack of vocabulary when you start reading.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:48:48 2012 No.8356723

>>8356637
I find that whenever there are two polarized opinions on something, the best solution is to try to combine them. It's what I decided to do when I was really troubled about which side to take, and it worked really well. I got the speed of concentrated study, and the deeper knowledge of studying them in context.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 07:58:47 2012 No.8356754

>>8356702
I have Japanese classes (kill me. plz.) and I read. Heh, I learned 動 by staring at the top of the urinal. 「自動」って

See, you only ought to spend around an hour doing kanji flashcards a day. Spend the rest reading or watching or listening or using your computer (which you've set to Japanese locale, right?) or god forbid, talking to people. Heisig says he never reviewed because he used kanji daily in his work.

I think you'd go very slowly if you deliberately learned several words for every kanji. It's the same reason you don't focus on the readings at that point. The kanji is basically a cram session to get you closer to understanding writing in a shorter amount of time. The quicker you understand writing, the quicker you can read, the quicker you can learn new words.

At least that's how I'm approaching it. I pick up words from other stuff, as they come up. The kanji is the most tedious part, so that's what we relegate to flashcards in the most simple, time-compressed format.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:01:47 2012 No.8356766 Question: Is there a preferred method/order for learning the Hiragana?

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:09:17 2012 No.8356782

>>8356766
Not really. Sit down and memorize them. Flashcard them. Then start using them. Doodle with them. Get a volume of your favorite manga/hentai doujin and leaf through it every once in a while, just picking out what you can. Eventually the ratio of what to do / what you don't understand will flip flop. Just look at them as much as you freaking can. Same with the rest of Japanese as far as that goes.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:10:17 2012 No.8356784 >>8356766 Write them each 50 times, other than that you really shouldn't need to do anything special. If you can't grasp this basic shit on your own, your going to have a hard time later on.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:10:46 2012 No.8356786 >>8356766 Just do it normally, on the "alphabetic order" as they are originally shown on the charts (あいうえお /かきくけこ/etc) The important is that you begin to assimilate the caracters to the sounds directly just like you did with roman letters as a child.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:18:46 2012 No.8356814 >>8356782 >>8356784 >>8356786 So flashcards, constant exposure, write the fuck out of them and associate them with sounds? Alright, that's pretty much exactly what I've been doing; good to know I'm on the right track.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:20:17 2012 No.8356817

>>8356782
Not the guy you're replying to. I've already got hiragana down, now I'm trying to improve my speed by reading novels while skipping most (if not all) kanji and only focusing on the hiragana. Is this good or bad ? Should I learn a bit more grammar and kanji before moving on to speed ?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:22:46 2012 No.8356822 >>8356814 There isn't really a right track. But those 4 things will pretty much get you the whole language.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:23:47 2012 No.8356828 File: 69 KB, 500x712, 1323228792765.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8356817 >now I'm trying to improve my speed by reading novels while skipping most (if not all) kanji >reading novels while skipping most (if not all) kanji

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:25:16 2012 No.8356831 >>8356817 -shrugs- I dunno. That does sound like it will get you reading hiragana more quickly. If that's all you're trying to do right now, it seems fine. I don't think you can expect to learn it all before doing any of it. It couldn't possibly hurt.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:26:47 2012 No.8356833 Is it a viable and/or feasible idea to throw stroke order out? Also, what's the average time to nail those 2000~ kanji? I keep hearing vastly different god damn times.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:27:46 2012 No.8356838 >>8356817 ??? i don't even...

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:29:19 2012 No.8356843

>>8356833
You could do it, but knowing the stroke order is better for writing since it's the "correct way" to make the symbols.

Stroke orders aren't really that hard either. You don't have to practise stroke orders with many kanji before you can pretty much guess the correct order.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:30:48 2012 No.8356847 >>8356833 If you never plan to read handwritten or super stylised nip than, or write it, than ignore it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:32:48 2012 No.8356854 >>8356838 >>8356828 ... Was I being too vague ? My kana reading speed is ass, and I want to read them as fast as I read my English text. >>8356831 Alrighty

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:33:16 2012 No.8356857

>>8356833
I would say no. When you write, stroke order determines the way the pen drags from line to line. Once you pick up speed, your writing could become entirely incomprehensible. When reading, sloppy handwriting is sloppy in predictable ways because of the stroke order.

It's one thing to get a stroke wrong or have trouble with some kanji, but know how it works and get it right most of the time.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:34:16 2012 No.8356858

>>8356817
>Should I learn a bit more grammar
Yes, at least until you have a vague idea of verb conjugation and, more importantly, those fucking particles and weasel terms.
I started reading Mugen Kairou and I swear 10% of the text is "(so-)shite", "to iu to" and "no you ni", and if you don't know the particles, you won't know who's what is doing whatever to who. You can understand it from context if you're reading something simple, but once you get a long sentence with several clauses, it becomes vital to be familiar with particles.
>and kanji
You could just look up every kanji/jukugo you don't know as you read along. After seeing each one ten times or so you won't have to look it up anymore, and there's no point in memorizing shit like "bioluminescent abyssal fish" before you start reading. Actually, there's no point in memorizing that at all.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:35:16 2012 No.8356863

>>8356833
It is both viable and feasible, but also highly unwise. Without the correct stroke order, your writing WILL look like godawful chickenscratch at best and if you try to write with any speed it will be utterly incomprehensible. And it'll also hurt your ability to read the stylized moon that's fucking everywhere in anime and manga titles.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:37:17 2012 No.8356866 >>8356863 >your writing WILL look like godawful chickenscratch Uh, guys? We don't even write Latin letters, at least I sure don't. Why do you care what your writing will look like?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:38:46 2012 No.8356867 This thread made me go back to RtK and start over from the beginning, which I stopped at the 300-kanji mark a couple of years ago. This time, I'm determined to see it through to the end. Thanks, anons.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:39:47 2012 No.8356870 >>8356866 I hope to god you're trolling.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:41:48 2012 No.8356876

>>8356833
Oh, and as for time, it depends on what you consider "nailed", and how much and how frequently you study new kanji.

Would I get flamed if I recommended beginners start here?
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-japanese-all-the-time-ajatt-how-to-learn-japanese-on-y
our-own-having-fun-and-to-fluency

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:42:46 2012 No.8356880

Stroke order is not so much a matter of "learning", you'll rather have to ignore it if for some reason you don't want to know.
It just comes natural after a while, and once you know how a radical is written once, you can write it in 90% of the other kanji the same way.
Stroke order exists in the very first way to make writing kanji easier.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:43:46 2012 No.8356885

>>8356870
Are you still in school or something?
Or what, are you going to work in Japan and fill paperwork by hand every day?
When was the last time you wrote ANYTHING by hand?

Either way, my writing was always shit no matter the alphabet and I'm doing just fine. Well, I'm not, but it's not because of writing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:50:18 2012 No.8356906 >>8356885 I heard Japanese youth are starting to forget kanji or how to write them because they are so used to converting them on the computer.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:51:18 2012 No.8356910 >>8356885 I don't even masturbate with my hands anymore.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:51:18 2012 No.8356912

>>8356866
>your writing WILL look like godawful chickenscratch
Uh, guys?
We don't even write Latin letters, at least I sure don't.

Why do you care what your writing will look like?
Who mentioned Latin letters?
The English alphabet is more or less the Latin alphabet.
Chickenscratch is bad, no matter the characters.
When you write something down, it's usually for the purpose of someone reading it.
Filling out forms and writing letters. No, you don't have to write a lot, but I think I'd rather it not be utter shit when I do use it. Though most Japanese's handwriting IS godawful chickenscratch, yours would become godawful unreadable chickenscratch.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:53:16 2012 No.8356917 >>8356906 That's like us forgetting how to spell because of cellphones and the internet. lyk omg rite

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 08:56:16 2012 No.8356926

>>8356912
>Who mentioned Latin letters?
>The English alphabet is more or less the Latin alphabet.
Yes, they're fucking latin letters. That's why Japs call them roman characters.

>When you write something down, it's usually for the purpose of someone reading it.
You're reading me just fine despite my horrible handwriting.

Stop being dense, please.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:03:46 2012 No.8356938 >>8356926 Wow, you can read me fine too, despite my penis being so big! That's how logical your reply to him seems to me. Plus, what's the use if you can't express yourself without a computer? You will have to, eventualy. Even if you don't want to.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:04:17 2012 No.8356941

>>8356926
>Yes, they're fucking latin letters. That's why Japs call them roman characters.
I know. That's why I said it. It was a response to this:

>We don't even write Latin letters, at least I sure don't.

If this anon means when writing Japanese, then see the next line of my comment:

>Chickenscratch is bad, no matter the characters.
>>When you write something down, it's usually for the purpose of someone reading it.
>You're reading me just fine despite my horrible handwriting.
>When you write something down
>When you write
>write

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:24:17 2012 No.8357022

>>8356938
>>8356941
Goddamn, you're slow.

Look, I don't know what kind of lives you two lead, but I don't write letters, I don't fill tax forms, I'm not in school, I don't have a job that would require me . The few times I had to do some paperwork recently I found out it worked just fine online/by printing.
I haven't written anything by hand in months, and thank god for that because my handwriting has always been absolute shit (the teachers used to take points off my grade for having to suffer through reading it, back when I was in school. But that didn't prevent me from graduating.)

My Latin handwriting doesn't fucking matter anymore because I spend 24 hours a day on the computer. Then how could my Japanese handwriting possibly matter? I'm not going to get an office job in Japan, I don't have a job in my own fucking country. I don't have penpals (japanese penpals even less, real japanese people seem like horrible company), and if I did I would send them e-mails.
I can't imagine a single plausible scenario where my japanese handwriting would matter even one bit, which is why it baffles me to see it brought up.

Is that clear or are you still confused?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:26:50 2012 No.8357037 >>8357022 >I don't have a job that woul require me to write by hand* Fixed

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:31:49 2012 No.8357053

>>8357022
I never was confused. I'm just trying to make everything clear for you.

If you don't need it or care, then don't learn it. But if one wants legible Japanese handwriting, they ought to learn the stroke order. That's the only point I'm trying to make. I never said YOU should learn it.

Also, if you want to use handwriting recognition software to look up a kanji, you've got to have good stroke order.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:42:17 2012 No.8357091 >>8356766 Just learn them. And install IME to check if you forgot which way き should be hooked.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:43:17 2012 No.8357092

>>8357053
>if one wants legible Japanese handwriting
That's the thing that bothered me, you see. I'm surprised that anyone here wants that.
I wasn't aware everyone on /jp/ was a highly sociable resident of Japan, except for me. No wonder you guys don't have the time to review your kanji if you're busy writing back to all your japanese girlfriends. It must be tough being popular.

>handwriting recognition software to look up a kanji
Oooh, I didn't know those existed. Too bad I'm even worse at wriitng with a stylus/mouse.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:45:47 2012 No.8357098 >>8356833 Learn basics, don't bother with every character.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:50:18 2012 No.8357118

>>8357092
There sure aren't a lot of reasons for someone not living in japan wanting to know the stroke order, for me it was:
- it helps me a lot on recognizing handwriting on doujinshi / manga scribbles
- I learned by writing them down for practice anyway, why not write them the correct way while I was at it? As I said in >>8356880 it comes naturally anyway
- I guess that IME recognization stuff is an argument, but I never really used it since I know of jisho.org

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 09:52:18 2012 No.8357123

>>8357053
>Also, if you want to use handwriting recognition software to look up a kanji, you've got to have good stroke order.
These days they don't bother being too strict, so you're fine drawing 好 in 4 strokes (〈+フ for 女, ー + 了 for 子) instead of 6 and no sane recognizer cares about stoke order of crossed 丆 in 左/右

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:36:17 2012 No.8357242

>>8357123
Well, it really tripped me up when I was trying to look up 競 and was drawing it 立、立、兄、兄。 I pay much more attention since then.

>>8357092
Look, fuckwad, for what it's worth (I know, nothing), I'm in school. In Japan. I'll come back after school. I write letters. To host families. And teachers. I want nice handwriting. Maybe some of the 7 billion other people on this planet who aren't you do too.

Different. Goals. Prick.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:37:17 2012 No.8357245

>>8356608

All incorrect. This guy is simply frustrated because smart learners are surpassing him in a fraction of the time he committed, so he needed to vent. Unfortunately for him he got shut down and looked stupid.

>>8356637

There is no two standpoints; if you're not learning Kanji with RTK first you're stupid because everything is going to take substantially longer in the end. Period.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:38:47 2012 No.8357248 I don't see the point to seriously study kanji before I haven't the grammar down.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:39:18 2012 No.8357250 >>8357248 It happens. This is called ignorance.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:39:47 2012 No.8357257 >>8357245 Oh dear, the raging heisig fanatics have arrived, to the rescue boats!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:42:18 2012 No.8357265 >>8357257 Try learning English grammar first.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:44:17 2012 No.8357271 >>8357248 How are you going to learn grammar without words?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:46:18 2012 No.8357277 >>8357271 Also false; grammar should never be studied formally. Pick it up from context.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:47:48 2012 No.8357281 >>8357271 It doesn't mean I don't know any kanji at all. I take them as I see them. But grammar has priority at this point.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:49:17 2012 No.8357286

>>8357242
>I'm in school.
You mean you're in university, right?

>I write letters. To host families. And teachers.
Oh wow. I don't think I've ever met a single person who sent handwritten letters to their teachers. Well, except that one guy who got molested by his teacher at a private catholic school.
Why not send them emails though? Are you technophobic?

>Maybe some of the 7 billion other people on this planet who aren't you do too.
6,999,999,000 of those people aren't on /jp/.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:49:47 2012 No.8357289 >>8357277 That doesn't work with Japanese. Most particles have 2 or even 3 different usages.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:49:47 2012 No.8357290 >>8357277 What's false? That was a question. A rhetorical question, but a question nonetheless!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 10:50:47 2012 No.8357295 >>8357289 Which you learn from context.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:03:18 2012 No.8357327

>>8357289
Of course it will work, do you think Japanese peasants took grammar classes 200 years ago before they were able to speak?
But I agree that at least skimming through particles in a grammar guide will significantly speed up the process.

>>8357271
You know, Japanese people learn to read with like 60-200 kanji in elementary school. And you can build up a vocabulary without learning kanji, that's why shounen magazines have the pronunciation in hiragana next to every kanji.

On top of that, the grammar really only concerns the text written in hiragana like the particles and verb conjugation.
You can literally give someone who doesn't know kanji a sentence and he can figure out that "this kanji is the subject, it was doing something represented by this kanji verb in the past tense in the direction of that kanji "

Actually I'm surprised they don't teach grammar like that, we did it a few times in Latin class. It makes sure you truly understand the text on a grammatical level and you're not just guessing from the context, which happened pretty often for Latin because it's hard to keep track of the derivation and people are lazy.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:05:48 2012 No.8357332 >>8357327 >Of course it will work, do you think Japanese peasants took grammar classes 200 years ago before they were able to speak? Holy fuck you are immensely retarded.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:12:17 2012 No.8357360 >>8357332 You're claiming that it's impossible to pick up particle usage from context in a language that's been spoken every day for a millennium by an entire people, and I'm the one who's retarded?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:13:17 2012 No.8357365 >>8357332 >Holy fuck you are immensely retarded. Don't be so rude, I think he's very entertaining.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:15:18 2012 No.8357373 >>8357332 He's also right.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:19:47 2012 No.8357396

>>8357365
Feel free to elaborate. The average rice farmer with an IQ in the double digits had no problem figuring out how to use particles in speech without being taught formal grammar.
The only reason for studying grammar formally is so you don't have to waste weeks or months speeching like an infant before you pick it up, like they did.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:21:47 2012 No.8357402 I have never ever paid attention to English grammar, and I'd consider myself fluent at English. Never once have I bothered memorizing rules or remembered generalizations.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:22:51 2012 No.8357411 >>8357402 Because grammar doesn't exist for all intents and purposes; it's subject to arbitrary will by definition and imposed on language by humans. Don't learn it. Live it. It will take care of itself if you learn from good sources.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:22:51 2012 No.8357413 I have no idea how people spend more than 2 months on Heisig. It's meant to be something easy to do that accelerates your learning, not something you spend years on.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:23:51 2012 No.8357414 >>8357396 *speaking In my defense, I'm not a native speaker.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:29:18 2012 No.8357430 >>8356168 Stroke order generally follows 'from top to bottom from left to right'. Once you've written a few you can get an instinctive feel for the correct stroke order by yourself.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:38:48 2012 No.8357468

>>8356608
So show me a Japanese person. Go ahead.

>your brain isn't breaking down every word you see into letters

Now, after thousands of repetitions. It had to break them into letters when I was still learning, it wouldn't be able to process them otherwise. It also wouldn't be able to actually use them for anything if I couldn't write, type, speak them - all of which requires breaking the word into letters. If I couldn't do all that, I wouldn't really be able to claim to know the language, like, at all.

>Kanji with okurigana isn't kanji by itself

For all intents and purposes - yes it is. It's just kanji with the pronunciation explained by additional phonetic symbols. Which is one of the reasons why you can easily withhold learning the readings until the time you actually get to use the kanji in question.

But I guess it may be different for you if you take your retardation to a logical conclusion and don't learn kana either.

>If you're studying kun reading you aren't studying kanji in the sense discussed here

Sense discussed here? I thought we're discussing my way of learning. It's not my fault you tried to turn me into a strawman in your dumb anti-Heisig crusade. I'm certainly not discussing Heisig, I couldn't possibly, since I've never even seen it, which I already stated in, what, my second post?

>you're studying words themselves.

Well, yeah. And it certainly took you long enough to convey what could have simply been achieved by "uh, okay, you're right".

>I'm up to about 5000 in my Anki deck

Oh? Then I'm guessing you simply don't even have the experience learning the way you preach. You're probably mad at Heisig because you actually learned from his books and for some retarded reason believe it impeded your progress. In actuality, you should probably be thankful to him for giving you a kickstart. Or at least bitch about how it's bad specifically, not against the general idea of making a NECESSARY step of learning the kanji.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:40:19 2012 No.8357476 So I've learned the kana and the jouyou kanji through RTK, what should I do next?

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:41:19 2012 No.8357477

>>8357396
>Feel free to elaborate.
Don't mind me. I've only quickly read through the last few posts, so I probably don't know whats going on anyway.

But be it 200 years ago or today, be it someone with an IQ of 80 or 150 and no matter how easy it was for a native speaker without all of this, I guess looking a bit through a grammar book from time to time won't be such bad idea for someone who's learning the language as a grown up and as a hobby.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:42:49 2012 No.8357483 >>8357396 Not to mention the brain loses the ability to instinctively pick up the workings of a language by imitation after the age of seven or so.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:44:19 2012 No.8357494 >>8357476 Read. Everything you can get your hands on. Put interesting sentences with new grammar into your srs. Continue ad infinitum.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:45:48 2012 No.8357500

>>8357477
>I guess looking a bit through a grammar book from time to time won't be such bad idea for someone who's learning the language as a grown up and as a hobby.
I can agree with that, of course.
Although it won't help you with slang. Well, Tae Kim's grammar guide also covers a slang a bit, but if you're watching yakuza movies or something, you're still fucked.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:46:18 2012 No.8357503 >>8357483 Quit parroting discredited myths.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:46:49 2012 No.8357504 >>8357483 If this is true, then how have I learned Japanese faster than a Japanese toddler at the age of 22?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:46:49 2012 No.8357506 >>8357494 but how do I know if I'm translating the sentences accurately?

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:47:49 2012 No.8357510

>>8357476
Grab as many different Japanese texts as you can. Picture books, books, magazine articles, light novels, visual novels, the more diverse the better. And read, get a feel for the language. For a nightmare mode challenge, browse 2channel and figure out their netspeak.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:48:48 2012 No.8357517

>>8357506
You can ask http://www.reddit.com/r/learnjapanese.. That's not an insult by the way, /r/learnjapanese is a very helpful reddit subboard for asking help with sentence interpretations. More helpful than certain 4chan boards who will only reply with "the pleasure of being cummed inside".

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:49:48 2012 No.8357522

>>8357483
I dunno, I've picked up english mostly from reading/posting on forums during my teenage years. It gets harder as you grow older, of course, but I think the problem isn't so much neurological and has more to do with adults having other shit to deal with.
Kids have relatively empty lives and lots of free time so they have the potential to pick things up effortlessly.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:51:18 2012 No.8357528

>>8357483
That only really applies to picking up languages as first languages, like what Rosetta Stone tries to do. Past that age you can still pick up languages, but you'll be learning them as second languages relative to your first language(s) as opposed to from nothing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:51:19 2012 No.8357527 >>8357506 Doesn't really matter. You pick up enough to get a feel of what's going on and you plow forward. I wouldn't read with a dictionary. Pure drudgery, though there are times it feels helpful.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:54:48 2012 No.8357539 >>8357527 If I don't read with a dictionary then how will I know what anything says?.. I'll just be looking at random words like trying to read German or something.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:56:18 2012 No.8357542 >>8357522 That has a lot to do with why adults experience less success. And children don't have it so effortless. Confusing "rules", lisps, the American r sound, getting made fun of, crap like that.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:57:18 2012 No.8357543

>>8357539
You say you've already learned the jouyou kanji. Basically keep a dictionary on hand for any strange and unfamiliar kanji or if a sentence interpretation just doesn't sound right to you. When encountering an unfamiliar kanji always spend a moment or two to see if you can discern the meaning based on the radicals its composed of relative to the context of the sentence, then check the dictionary to see if you were right. In this way you can build up your vocabulary and get a better feel for the workings of the hanzi.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:57:48 2012 No.8357545 >>8357539 You could start playing VNs with ITH and Translation Aggregator, and just pick up shit as you go.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 11:59:19 2012 No.8357549 >>8357543 >hanzi Please leave, Chinese speaker who speaks no Japanese and is trying to give advice based on experience learning Chinese.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:00:19 2012 No.8357554 [DELETED]

>>8357543

Yeah, I know the kanji means but I don't see how that helps much beyond maybe giving me an educated guess at what certain words in the sentence are about. The ratio of kanji to kana in a sentence is like 1:4 though, just knowing the kanji doesn't seem to help much when reading a Japanese sentence if you don't know what everything else says.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:01:48 2012 No.8357556

>>8357543

Yeah, I know the kanji meanings, but I don't see how that helps much beyond maybe giving me an educated guess at what certain words in the sentence are about. The ratio of kanji to kana in a sentence is like 1:4, just knowing the kanji doesn't seem to help much when reading a Japanese sentence if you don't know what everything else says.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:02:19 2012 No.8357558

>>8357539
Try it. It'll be more like reading French. English and French have so many shared words, I'd equivilate that with a fresh RTK grad reading Japanese.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinogramme

But by all means try anything that seems like a good idea to you. I could only put up with the dictionary through the preface.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:02:48 2012 No.8357560 >>8357554 >>8357556 Pick up the Genki textbooks and learn some grammar and basic vocabulary. Everything you said led us to think you'd already done that. Because few people would tackle all those Kanji before learning a single word in pure kana.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:04:48 2012 No.8357564 >>8357560 Well I actually learned all the kanji before the kana. So basically all I know is that, and some really common Japanese words like ありがとう.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:04:48 2012 No.8357565

Is there any kind of haxed up RTK book with the Kanji books mashed together to have both meanings and readings in one book? The idea sounds good on paper but my instincts are so adverse to learning meanings without readings that I'm finding it hard to get up the motivation to go through book 1.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:06:18 2012 No.8357571 >>8357565 KanjiDamage

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:09:18 2012 No.8357574

>>8357527
>You pick up enough to get a feel of what's going on and you plow forward.
That's the hardest for me to get over, I still end up dissecting a sentence I don't quite get for 10 mins even if I understood the general meaning.
I don't think it's time wasted though.
>I wouldn't read with a dictionary.
You know, JWPce has a nice and fast dictionary, just highlight your word and CTRL+D (or get info for the kanji, which shows readings and stroke numbers and a bunch of info that's useless unless you're in university).
The dictionary covers some common expressions as well.
http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~grosenth/jwpce.html
It does have less content than many proper dictionaries and it doesn't have examples of how it's used in sentences like jisho or tangorin, but it's instantaneous (and, well, it doubles as a japanese word processor. It's fairly easy to find kanji with it too.)
I made a habit of dumping whatever text I'm reading into it in advance.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:11:19 2012 No.8357582 >>8357574 >digital dictionary recommendations >I read paper books Thanks anyway, mate.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:12:48 2012 No.8357588 >>8357582 You can try japanese.nciku.com, it allows you to use your mouse to transcribe kanji directly into an online dictionary, and I think they have a smartphone app.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:12:48 2012 No.8357589 >>8357517 /lang/ at least as helpful as reddit. Just post in "Japanese Ask Questions" thread.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:14:49 2012 No.8357601 >>8357582 Ah. Well, I understand now, I wouldn't read anything on paper without knowing 95% of the kanji in it either. Finding kanji through radicals is painfully slow.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:16:19 2012 No.8357605 >>8357601 You could use >>8357588.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:18:19 2012 No.8357609 >>8357556 Read doujinshi, you'll figure out from context what things like お尻に挿れて mean even knowing no particles and verb conjugations at all.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:18:48 2012 No.8357611 >>8357588 Not particularly helpful until they finish their service upgrades and relaunch in mid-January.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:18:48 2012 No.8357612 >>8357605 You can transcribe with your mouse using the Windows IME

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:19:18 2012 No.8357619 >>8357609 That is pretty obvious, yes, but I'm not too interested in learning things like that...

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:19:49 2012 No.8357618

>>8357588
Well, my ipod does that. It's not a need of better equipment, it's the fact that by taking the time to look more stuff up, I'm actually reading less, thereby getting less exposure, thereby probably not learning the best I could.

When I was about seven, I started reading novels. At some point I realized I wasn't actually understanding everything I was reading, but I kept going. All through government mandated adolescent prison, my reading level was several years higher than my actual grade level, while I think most people in my highschool couldn't read a fucking textbook faster than 60 wpm.

So I'm doing the same thing that worked in English with Japanese. I am currently slowing down and looking more up, because...it just feels time for it. But it won't last too long.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:22:49 2012 No.8357625 >>8357618 You can also pick up Genki I and II to give your knowledge of Japanese some kind of grammar framework beyond just knowing the Kanji.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:23:48 2012 No.8357628 >>8357625 Assuming you're the guy who learned kanji before kana.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:24:19 2012 No.8357631 >>8357628 It wasn't. I'll take your advice though, thanks.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:30:18 2012 No.8357649 Starting my total immersion environment today... going to walk to Walmart and see what they have in this regard. I figure why not... it should speed up the progress. As far as Audio and Video I'm already immersed, so I want to take it a bit further.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:30:50 2012 No.8357652 [DELETED]

>>8357468
>Now, after thousands of repetitions. It had to break them into letters when I was still learning, it wouldn't be able to process them otherwise. It also wouldn't be able to actually use them for anything if I couldn't write, type, speak them - all of which requires breaking the word into letters. If I couldn't do all that, I wouldn't really be able to claim to know the language, like, at all.

You can spell, write and read words without understanding the underlying etymological roots. Nobody gave you a crash course in German and Romance languages growing up.

>For all intents and purposes - yes it is. It's just kanji with the pronunciation explained by additional phonetic symbols. Which is one of the reasons why you can easily withhold learning the readings until the time you actually get to use the kanji in question.

That isn't any different than having the pronunciation explained by adjacent other kanji. Somebody suggested standalone kanji were relatively common, and he was wrong.

>Oh? Then I'm guessing you simply don't even have the experience learning the way you preach.
>>8357245

5000 words, not kanji.

>You're probably mad at Heisig because you actually learned from his books and for some retarded reason believe it impeded your progress. In actuality, you should probably be thankful to him for giving you a kickstart. Or at least bitch about how it's bad specifically, not against the general idea of making a NECESSARY step of learning the kanji.

You're really bad at guessing these things.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:31:19 2012 No.8357658

>>8357468
>Now, after thousands of repetitions. It had to break them into letters when I was still learning, it wouldn't be able to process them otherwise. It also wouldn't be able to actually use them for anything if I couldn't write, type, speak them - all of which requires breaking the word into letters. If I couldn't do all that, I wouldn't really be able to claim to know the language, like, at all.

You can spell, write and read words without understanding the underlying etymological roots. Nobody gave you a crash course in German and Romance languages growing up.

>For all intents and purposes - yes it is. It's just kanji with the pronunciation explained by additional phonetic symbols. Which is one of the reasons why you can easily withhold learning the readings until the time you actually get to use the kanji in question.

That isn't any different than having the pronunciation explained by adjacent other kanji. Somebody suggested standalone kanji were relatively common, and he was wrong.

>Oh? Then I'm guessing you simply don't even have the experience learning the way you preach.

5000 words, not kanji.

>You're probably mad at Heisig because you actually learned from his books and for some retarded reason believe it impeded your progress. In actuality, you should probably be thankful to him for giving you a kickstart. Or at least bitch about how it's bad specifically, not against the general idea of making a NECESSARY step of learning the kanji.

You're really bad at guessing these things.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:31:50 2012 No.8357657 [SPOILER]

File: 925 KB, 1120x1600, 018.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8357609
Careful though, sometimes you find some really fucked up dialog.

Pic related for example, you'll get a really wrong idea what the 飴 in マスタの飴がおいしい means, which will lead to popping boners in inappropriate settings.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:32:49 2012 No.8357661

>>8357618
>I started reading novels. At some point I realized I wasn't actually understanding everything I was reading, but I kept going.

Until some people point out it may have been because of your young age - that's how I learned English, too. By the age of 18. The progress I made in about a year was amazing. Though even a few years afterwards I still kept finding out that the words I figured out from context don't actually mean what I thought they meant.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:33:19 2012 No.8357664

>>8357658
>>8357652

Somebody tell this double-posting retard to stop talking. He's been shitting up the thread for the last 12 hours and I can tell it's him because he always double-posts and then deletes.

Nobody cares about your argument. Nobody cares about what you have to say.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:34:20 2012 No.8357670 >>8357664 Calm down.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:35:19 2012 No.8357678 >>8357664 Calm down

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 12:35:49 2012 No.8357677 >>8357658 Hey, double-posting retard, stop talking! >>8357664 Gotcher back, bro.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 13:02:54 2012 No.8357801 >>8357664 >>8357677 Uhh, sorry, guys, I guess I'll stop replying to him. I'd only be repeating myself by now, anyway.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 13:07:56 2012 No.8357826

>>8357661
I know what you mean. I "learned" English at the tender age of 11 (thanks pokemon and porn), but some words were just plain wrong. I mean, I used to think pinnacle was a misspelling of pineapple. Cue the awesome translations I did. "You are at the pineapple of your powers!"

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 14:50:51 2012 No.8358327

>>8357649

Update here: They didn't have much.. I ended up getting like 5 boxes of Pocki, a lot of chopsticks, and graph paper for my Kanji writing.

Better than nothing I suppose. Everything I can make "Japanese" helps my immersion environment. I plan to only eat with chopsticks now; it's a skill I need to learn anyways to not look like a retard when I go.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 15:29:04 2012 No.8358511 >>8358327 >Pocki and chopsticks

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 15:31:04 2012 No.8358522 >>8358511 >>>/b/

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 15:33:51 2012 No.8358527 >>8358511 >implying that pocky isn't popular as fuck in Japan >implying that pocky isn't fucking delicious

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 15:38:16 2012 No.8358560 >>8358527 You know what's popular in japan also? Bleaching your hair blonde and tanning your skin a weird orange hue. You should give it a shot, it'll make you connect to glorious nippon on a much deeper level. Be sure to post pics.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:02:21 2012 No.8358677 >>8358560 Ganguro is also popular.... I find it funny that they copy both Black and White Americans. Well not funny... just amusing. I think Ganguro is kind of hot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:10:53 2012 No.8358710 Isn't ganguro already a long gone fad over there? It was popular in the late 90s/early 00s I think.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:13:22 2012 No.8358727 Does anybody have any good suggestions of easy light novels for beginners to read?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:13:51 2012 No.8358730 >>8358710 I think it's still relatively popular.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:22:54 2012 No.8358766 >>8358710 The male variant was still huge a few years back, I don't know what trashy japanese alpha douchebags look like nowadays.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:23:54 2012 No.8358770 >>8358766 Just because some people are alpha and you aren't doesn't make them trashy, anon.

>>	「ロリあき」 Thu Jan 5 16:41:58 2012 No.8358893 >>8358770 THe ganguro thing was trashy, and they had their own alphas and alpha tryhards. Nobody ever said all alphas are trashy, just that the 'trashy alpha' spot was filled by the ganguro dudes at one time.a

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:48:54 2012 No.8358934 >>8358893 I don't think it's trashy. Cute girls and 9s and 10s did it all the time; good looking people at the top of the social ladder don't do trashy things. A thing only young people would do? Yes. Trashy? Not necessarily; it's just your opinion.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:51:54 2012 No.8358946 >>8358934 >good looking people at the top of the social ladder >top of the social ladder So politicians and CEOs were into this too?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:55:22 2012 No.8358977 >>8358946 That's not the top of the social ladder.... it's just irrelevant old people. The "social ladder" refers to young people. Sometimes I forget that I'm on /jp/, and other shut-ins won't commonly understand how these kind of things work.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:56:22 2012 No.8358985

>>8358934
Ganguro is mostly a prole (actually, lumpenprole) trend.

Of course spoiled kids did that too, much like you can see spoiled kids being wiggers in the west, but their parents probably wanted to beat the shit out of them.

Either way the typical ganguro was an idiotic schoolgirl or an idiotic adult who worked at a convenience store or a hostess club to buy make up and ugly clothes and is probably the japanese equivalent of a soccer mom by now.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:56:22 2012 No.8358986 >>8358977 And young people at the top of the "social ladder" are usually douchebags with lots of family money and tons of free time.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:57:22 2012 No.8358988 >>8358977 You sound dumb.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 16:58:22 2012 No.8358995 >>8358977 >it's just irrelevant old people. The "social ladder" refers to young people. Sometimes I forget that I'm on 4chan, and underage brats won't commonly understand how these kind of things work.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:01:52 2012 No.8359011

>>8358995
>>8358988
>>8358986
>>8358985

Two frustrated aspies mad that they have no social knowledge. Just because these kind of people picked on you in school doesn't mean your personal vendetta will be tolerated. Cool is cool.

Politicians aren't included in any form of "social ladder" that anyone cares about. Go lament on your unsuccessful-nesss elsewhere, oji-san.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:05:52 2012 No.8359037 >>8359011 >cool is cool Yeah. And most people that are considered really "cool" in the social hierarchies of young people the world over are douchebags with a ton of family money.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:07:52 2012 No.8359057 >>8359037 It can't be helped, and besides such a thing is much better than being a hikki on /jp/.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:15:53 2012 No.8359106
File: 203 KB, 373x507, 6a00d8341bfb8d53ef00e54fa7e29f8833-800wi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8359011
>Politicians aren't included in any form of "social ladder" that anyone cares about.
That might be true if the social events you've attended have been limited to prom night.
I've seen everyone at a dinner buzz like flies around a boring fat middle-aged notary, desperately trying to lick his ass. That's what it means to have social status.

Ganguro girls can't even attract any guys other than their borderline-rapist male equivalents, because no one self-respecting person wants to deal with some loud obnoxious garishly-colored empty-headed bitch.
Yes, even in Japan. Even hostesses who were ganguro in their daily lives generally had to change their makeup to look more proper for their job, and they're practically whores.
If you think people who follow ganguro and other such trends are met with anything other than scorn in polite society, you are mistaken and possibly delusional.

Pic related, a typical japanese gal-style couple. They're together because they're the only one who can tolerate the other, and they're not even social outcasts like ganguro were.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:20:52 2012 No.8359144

>>8359106

Don't cherry-pick your examples. You simply have a vendetta against anything "cool", because you're not. This is understandable because biologically you were shafted in life by being a loser.

In reality the people like that are generally the most attractive people of both genders; your example is simply cherry picked to support your vendetta; understand that efforts are in-vain nobody really cares about a middle-aged politician. At all.

If you're fat and middle-aged I understand that rationalizing such a thing is a natural defense mechanism, but instead of living behind lies perhaps you should work towards improving your life.

You will never be young, attractive, and cool, but there's no reason to lash out against those who were more gifted than you.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:23:25 2012 No.8359167

>>8359106

Don't cherry-pick your examples. You simply have a vendetta against anything "cool", because you're not. This is understandable because biologically you were shafted in life by being a loser. In reality the people like that are generally the most attractive people of both genders; your example is simply cherry picked to support your vendetta; understand that your efforts are in-vain and that nobody really cares about a middle-aged politician. At all. If you're fat and middle-aged I understand that rationalizing such a thing is a natural defense mechanism, but instead of living behind lies perhaps you should work towards improving your life.

You will never be young, attractive, and cool. Deal with it instead being butthurt as it isn't doing much for you.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:23:25 2012 No.8359172 >>8359144 >nobody really cares about a middle-aged politician Confirmed for troll, retarded, teenager or any combination of the above.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:31:54 2012 No.8359227 File: 99 KB, 400x398, 12910125.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8359172

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:32:54 2012 No.8359232 GEE WHIZ SO HOW ABOUT DEM KANJIS

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:39:55 2012 No.8359289 >>8357510 Speaking of 2channel netspeak, is 乙 just kind of like saying "seconded"? I see it all the time and it seems like that's what they mean.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:39:55 2012 No.8359293 >>8359232 Nobody wants to discuss kanji while the Heisigtards are still around, they get upset too easily when you point out how much effort they've wasted.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:40:55 2012 No.8359302 >>8359289 It means "thank you".

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:42:58 2012 No.8359317 >>8359302 Alright, it seems kind of weird that five people thank the OP every time they make a thread, but I guess it's just a cultural difference.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:44:58 2012 No.8359327 File: 68 KB, 812x1264, 436354634565345643543.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8359293

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:46:58 2012 No.8359334 >>8359327 It's okay. I'm here if you need a shoulder to cry on.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:52:59 2012 No.8359380 >>8359334 The sad part is you're the only one crying hence the picture. Unfortunately not everyone is very bright though, so I shouldn't be this hard. Ah, such is life.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:52:59 2012 No.8359382 >>8359349 Why the hell are you double posting in every thread? Everyone knows when it's you posting.

Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:53:59 2012 No.8359385

>>8359349

Are you the same person I've been talking to this whole thread? I mean, I've actually gotten up from my seat to go do things and yet one way or another every time I've posted within the last 13 hours someone's always been there hanging at the edge of their keyboard ready to fire off some frustrated tirade or apparently repost the same image macro from /a/, and the writing style barely varies. Have you been sitting in front of your computer F5ing this thread all day long while pretending not to be mad or that you've discounted my opinion and written me off?

That's fucking adorable.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 17:54:59 2012 No.8359400 >>8359382 That's me; the double-poster is one frustrated that learners with RTK foundations accomplish in a year of studying what he accomplished in 5 years of university. Naturally this makes him very angry.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 18:02:01 2012 No.8359445 >>8359400 Sorry, I've just been seeing someone making double posts in multiple threads and I assumed that it was you.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 19:33:01 2012 No.8359908 >>8359289 >>8359302 >>8359317 It's an abbreviation from お疲れ様, which isn't really translatable but in this context can mean something like thank you. Also in niconico うぽつ and わこつ are used when people upload videos or make live broadcasts.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 22:12:09 2012 No.8360831 Starting KanjiDamage wish me luck.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jan 5 22:29:07 2012 No.8360910 >>8360831 Good luck anon!

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 03:04:14 2012 No.8361910 >>8360831 I also started recently.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 07:21:16 2012 No.8362620 >>8360831 You'll stop before the end of the month.

Anonymous Fri Jan 6 07:26:16 2012 No.8362639

>>8362620

Not necessarily as people exist who finish it, and people who finish are generally reading difficult material in short time. Consequently he will either not finish or, or finish it and obtain high moon levels of /jp/ elites.

It's kind of cool when it is thought of this way; simply the existence of a dilemma makes him more likely to be successful if he does finish sort of like a chicken and egg fallacy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 08:08:27 2012 No.8362715 >>8362639 When I think if this way I get pretty motivated.

Anonymous Fri Jan 6 08:31:32 2012 No.8362748

>Do not: pause in your kanji study. Do not: start learning Japanese grammar on the side before finishing kanji. Learn kanji first. If you’re going at like 25 kanji/day, then it will take 3 months. At 12 kanji/day, it will take 6 months. And that’s fine; if you’re a busy person with other commitments, then it’s going to take that much time. Stay the course. The sooner you start, the sooner you’ll be done. Start today, and you will thank me later.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 09:05:20 2012 No.8362840 Started RtK 3 days ago, already at the 94 mark. Dunno if I should go faster or not. I'm afraid it would mess up all the stories and make a mess of my memory.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 09:13:22 2012 No.8362858 >>8362840 How tips for completing RTK1? It's very hard for someone as anxious as I am to do sentences.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 09:19:22 2012 No.8362875 >>8362858 Just create stories that are as vivid as possible using the primitives. Avoid using abstract stories and if you are still having trouble, close your eyes and try to visualize the story in your mind.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 09:47:32 2012 No.8362932 >>8362875 How long did you wait before reviewing "first-time" kanji? I usually wait 8-12 hours after initially copying/making the story, but my first-time retention rate is always relatively low.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 12:30:22 2012 No.8363484 >>8362932 A couple of minutes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 12:48:27 2012 No.8363574 >>8363484 That's bad. If you test something in the SRS a couple minutes after learning it you're going to inflate the statistics and make it think you know something when it's just extremely fresh in your short-term memory.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 12:55:30 2012 No.8363613 >>8363574 Works for me. The next interval is 3 days.

Anonymous Fri Jan 6 15:10:21 2012 No.8364213

>>8363574
Actually, now that I think about it, from now on I'll start leaving a day between learning new kanji and doing the first review. Sounds more reasonable.

If your first day retention is low, it means your stories are not vivid enough. Feel free to go overboard and make them sound unbelievably visceral.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jan 6 15:13:22 2012 No.8364229 New thread: >>8364024 >>8364024 >>8364024

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