/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

Touno Shiki can kill Servants. If you disagree, you obviously have no idea how his eyes work and need to read Tsukihime again.

[Anonymous No.]

>Touno
>Touno
>Touno
>Touno
>onuoT
>Touno
>ʇonuo
>ounoʇ
>u
>u
>u
>u
>u

[Anonymous No.]

>>8164778
>2011
>not spelling his name properly

[Anonymous No.]

遠 is supposed to be とお.
But I suppose having Toono as the English name would lead to retards reading it as two-no.

[Anonymous No.]

For the last time, Servants don't have lines of death because they can't die.

[Anonymous No.]

Ryougi Shiki killed 99 servants in fate/exta.

Then my fox caster banished her to the land of wind and ghosts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8164782

It's Tōno in that case.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8164809
Which is touno anyway, retard.

[Anonymous No.]

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>8164771
Shiki can only rape servants. And only if they're sluts.

[Anonymous No.]

Servants are basically what you would get if Shiki stabbed something, only to have that something be contracted with some really powerful death resistance contract.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8164805
Ryougi can kill servants.
Tohno/Nanaya is physically superior to Ryougi.

Tohno Shiki can kill servants.

[Anonymous No.]

>Shiki can kill servants

>Servants can kill Shiki

[Anonymous No.]

Gauron can kill Servants. Discuss.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8164805
F/E Servants aren't dead things not part of the real world, they are merely data constructs and not nearly the same.

[Anonymous No.]

Tohno can in fact kill servants.

When he killed Arcueid, 17 cuts landed in "an instant".
This is on the same level as 5th grail war Asassin's Tsubame Gaeshi. This is in fact canon. Non only that, but Arcueid was not able to notice she was being followed, nor feel any killing intent from Tohno until the blade already killed her. This is on the same level as asassin servant presence concealment.

In the official Tsukihime manga, Shiki was capable of slicing and killing lightning shot at him by Roa. A low estimate of the speed required for this would land at 96,000MPH, which is the atmospheric discharge of lightning at denser levels (closer to lower altitudes.)

Tying together presence concealment, Zelretch level ability (flash sheath), and A class speed, Shiki could in fact stand a chance against most servants. His trump card that would place him above anything summoned under asassin card would be that he essentially has an instant kill move if he ever gets near, making him a very deadly oponent.

To use concrete evidence of Shiki proving himself time and time again, we can look at who in fact he has killed.

Nrvnqsr Chaos the 10th apostle. In one attack Tohno managed to kill all 666 of his lives.

Michael Roa Valdamjong, said to be immortal by traveling between Akasha and back, "reincarnating". Tohno severed his connection to Akasha, erasing his existance.

It's good to take note here, that Servants are tied to the Akashic record in the throne of heroes, which is what allows them to be summoned in the first place. When shiki kills a servant, they can no longer be summoned. Sounds like just the kind of person Archer was looking for.

In the "Talk" side story for Tsukihime, Tohno manged to kill the forest of Einnashe, the seventh dead apostle. He also managed to kill Einnashe's reality marble.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8164976
You do realize all of this is null because it was written by Nasu and Nasu sucks at continuating facts, right?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8164976

>When he killed Arcueid, 17 cuts landed in "an instant".

No they didn't.

>This is on the same level as 5th grail war Asassin's Tsubame Gaeshi. This is in fact canon.

HELL no it isn't.

>Non only that, but Arcueid was not able to notice she was being followed, nor feel any killing intent from Tohno until the blade already killed her.

Because he was an ordinary human with an ordinary dagger.

>This is on the same level as asassin servant presence concealment.

No it isn't.

>In the official Tsukihime manga

I have told you TIME AND AGAIN that that scene is not canon, Roa cannot do magic in SHIKI's body.
Official manga does not mean canon manga.

>When shiki kills a servant, they can no longer be summoned

Even giving you every inch of ground you could fucking ask for, no. Even if he could kill a Servant, that would only obliterate the body of a copy. It would not affect the soul on the Throne at all.
Roa does not make copies, his soul literally skips bodies.

In other words

OH FUCK
NOT YOU AGAIN
GO AWAY

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>8164976
Except that Nasu has explicitly said "Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants."

And he was referring to average Servants with "an extremely average Noble Phantasm", not hax Servants like the ones that actually took part in the Grail war.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8164995
Nasu is a fucking idiot. His own works contradict what he says.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8164934
HAHAHA!

>>8164967
This.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165026

Not much, they don't.

>b, but, but, Shirou uses Excalibur in HF!
No he doesn't, he uses the strongest NP in Archer's arsenal. Archer said he couldn't replicate Excalibur perfectly in UBW. There's no clear evidence that what he used was the true Excalibur and not some degraded copy, thus the clarification holds.

>but Shiki moved faster than Arc could see!
Arc was in neutral mode in the middle of the day, and was against a normal human who knocked on her door. Surprise works against anyone, you know.

>so Shiki can ambush servants!
Do you realize that the whole ambiguity of Shiki killing Servants comes from the idea of Shiki seeing the lines on a spiritual being without overloading his brain? If we disregard his brainbusting, yes, he can kill Servants once his eyes progress far enough. God damn.

[Anonymous No.]

Bitches keep forgetting how Arc ran over that little fuck like he was nothing while she wasn't at her full power due to her injuries. Since she couldn't even face Roa, she was weaker than most of the 5th Grail War servants. Deal with it!

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165061
30% arc can kill Gilgamesh.

[Anonymous No.]

Shirou can kill shiki.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165074

>can kill

Certainly.

>would win in a fight

Most Probably. Gil's only shot in the fight would be Enuma Elish, which Arc would probably beat him on the draw. Whether Enuma Elish could fully kill Arc, none of us could say. The damage might just push her over to bloodlust mode, which helps Gil even less.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165074
Who can also kill her according to Nasu.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165061
Forget Roa. Nrvnsqr is the true monster in Tsukihime. He has a Reality Marble designed to take down a fully powered Arc, let alone the servants.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165086

Again,
>can kill
is vague.
Do we take this to mean she would not survive Enuma Elish, or that Gil has SOME weapon deep in his gate that can execute a True Ancestor (the more likely option), and whether Gil himself knows of the artifact.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165090
I doubt Gil has such a weapon. The treasures in GoB are far older than the True Ancestors.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165090
The problem about Gilgamesh killing (most likely hurting badly) someone like her or even Shirou and Sakura is that he doesn't take any of his opponents seriously until it's too late while we've already seen Arcueid pissed off to the point of not caring who she is fighting.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165100

Nobody knows when the TAs were initially created. And Crimson Moon Brunestud is probably older than Gil.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165090
The real question is if Gilgamesh is being serious and if he has an artifact that can kill nature (He probably has a bunch but does he know it?)

[Anonymous No.]

Tohno Shiki can kill servants.
If they were standing still and allowed it.

He could not kill their spirit.

RE-READ FSN, THEIR BODIES ARE SHELLS THEIR SPIRIT INHABITS. NOT THEIR ACTUAL BODY.

SHIKI COULD KILL THEIR SHELL.
GET OVER IT.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165125
If we take Enuma Elish's description to the letter, it could be very well be one of those.

It's already been discussed here, something about tearing things apart and sending them to another dimension were Earth's power wouldn't be able to save Arc.

[Anonymous No.]

The best he could do is mimic rule breaker.
The shells don't exist in the eyes of the world.
And the status of the constructs are already that of dead.

Its always the world/akasha that kills things, and MEoDP are no different.
What he basically does is reflag everyone as dead, as to que them for the world's "This shit is dead" program.

Servants, are already flagged as dead. And the constructs that make them up are flagged as the people that happens to be flagged as dead.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165154
>The shells don't exist in the eyes of the world.
Yes they do. Why wouldn't they? Because they have dead souls in them? The same could be said of zombies, but Shiki could kill them anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

For a fictional universe where fights are supposed to be situational and the writer can bend anything and introduce new facts to fit the narrative, you guys sure like to pretend you know what crap Nasu is gonna spew when your hypothetical encounters actually happen. I practically shook my head when he started to describe mana/prana and damage in terms of 'points'.

All the fights are basically fucked up. He would say "The attack is impossible to dodge. The fight is already over," only to be followed by "But Saber, being the king of England and a super awesome Servant, she dodged it like it was nothing." Consistency isn't his selling point. He will always have a way to make a fight go the way he wants, stop wasting your brain cells over that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165157

The Dead and vampires are not recognized as "dead" by the world.

Servants are statistic copies of souls with no bodies.
The world looks at Gilgamesh, cross-references Gilgamesh's soul, acknowledges Gilgamesh died in whateverthousand BC, and tries to crush the dreadful inaccuracy. The only thing holding it in the world is the prana of the master.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165157
No, because they are made out of ether, which has some really fucked up properties.
And they are in the form of and perfectly mimics the dead people, as if they were alive.

A zombie is the remains of a dead thing, that happens to be moving. Not a dead thing, that is dead.

[Anonymous No.]

BUT...I WANT LHAN-ZHAER!

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165125
Taco Bell didn't exist when he was alive.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165154
Then what prevents the world from erasing Servants entirely and not storing them in the Throne of Heroes?

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165378
The great grail ritual and the constant stream of magical energy forcing that ritual's effect to stay intanct, despite the outside pressure of the world trying to correct the error.
Witghout the world trying to correct them, Servants wouldn't really need to be sustained.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165378

Their contract with their Master supplies them with the mana/prana/whatever the fuck it is. D/SN's Caster nearly became irrelevant before Shirou participated since she killed her first Master.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8166128
> continued
Now, back to nasu, the way I understand the mechanism, one could look at the image of a world (as I described it previously) and select all heroes ( are only heroes from the past instantiated?), now that would be considered 'the set of all heroes of this world' (nasu had a fancy name for this, I can't remember it), and this set would have an unchangable contents as it was selected from a timeless object as well (the image of the world) given some particular criteria (what qualifies someone to be a heroic spirit), thus heroic spirits can never be CHANGED (except particular instantiations) or even have their existence erased by Shiki (since changing an unchangable object (platonic realm) is impossible). For example, if you used a command spell to change something about your hero forever, that should be impossible, lest the whole world (erm, whole of all that can possibly exist) be inconsistent (changing the unchangable). A possible solution to this would be to only summon heroes from your past and count all changes temporally, so whatever changes you apply in the past would continue in the future timeline, but this seems incompatible with the definition given in F/SN.

Maybe I shouldn't get worked up that much about this as I've read some fiction that took the concept of changable platonic realms seriously (by choosing the impossible multiverse where no math is consistent/true and saying that the world would still exist in that scenario, just be unstable; my own opinion is that nothing could possibly exist if all mathematical systems were inconsistent, or all logics were themselves inconsistent), and it was very fun, despite it making no sense to me conceptually.

tl;dr: changing unchangable objects is nonsense of the same kind as (non-physical) omnipotence.

[Anonymous No.]

>>8165160
> Consistency
and to >>8164976

Problem with most fantasy writing. It's basically the good old omnipotence paradox. Shiki's erasure of existence is very close to being able to modify/erase abstract concepts/existence of mathematical objects, which is literally impossible, but if you suspend your disbelief and accept this type of omnipotence, then anything goes. If he can actually erase concepts, this will lead to an inconsistent 'reality' (thus cannot exist).

Let's look at this inconsistency some more:
Akasha, is close to being nasu's idea of a Platonic realm. Perfect images of heroes are part of the larger realm, now since all platonic realms are timeless, they are unchangable mathematical objects. A deterministic world would be one which could be described by a function parametrized by time, and what would exist in the platonic realm would be the image of that function/description. An indeterministic world would be similar, but the function would have multiple outputs (usually some free parameters which are given all possible values), and conscious beings living in those worlds would only experience what is consistent with whatever the world is(what ONE output is, that is, at each branch, there are now separate copies of the observer), thus indeterministic worlds are just globally deterministic and locally indeterministic(from the perspective of an observer).