/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

If you were to rate(1-10) fate/stay night
what score would you give it?

[Anonymous No.]

7

[Anonymous No.]

5, mediocre

[Anonymous No.]

>>>http://vndb.org/v11

[Anonymous No.]

6

If there were Illya route, I'd rate it 10.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885416
No fun aloud!

[Anonymous No.]

Fate: 4
UBW: 7
Slut route: 1

[Anonymous No.]

3 for the decent female character design.

[Anonymous No.]

3

[Sudo !Tohsaka8ks No.]

10/10, if only because my waifu is in it.

[Anonymous No.]

I rated it 82/100 on erogamescape. While it has issues, it's pretty good but there are other 'action' games I enjoyed more.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885419
I personally don't think '5/10 because it's popular' repeated ad nauseum is 'fun'. Now if OP said 'what did you like or dislike about f/sn?', we could have some discussion, but now it'll just be anons trying to be hipster by giving a universally acclaimed VN low ratings. VNDB, on the other hand, just answers the question.

[Anonymous No.]

Solid 8

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885437
>'action' games
Examples? I need to do something on next week

[Anonymous No.]

10. Anyone who says otherwise is a hipster faggot.

[⑨Liberty-kun⑨ !yFBUixGIig No.]

9 because i really liked the characters

[Anonymous No.]

ITT: hipsters.

I'll give it a 9.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7885411
10/10 since it's the greatest story ever told.

[Anonymous No.]

8/10.

I liked Tsukihime better.

[Anonymous No.]

3

[Anonymous No.]

8/10
Nice story but I don't like the characters

[Anonymous No.]

5, not so good.

[Anonymous No.]

7, the only route I found interesting was HF.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885443
Ayakashibito and Chrono Belt are two I greatly preferred over it for example.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885482
SLUT

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885482
>doesn't like 2/3 of the game
>gives 7
Why?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885500
I said interesting.
The others were not bad, but nothing to write home about, so like a 6 more or less.
Also has some nice OST and character design, which obviously helps.

[Anonymous No.]

5 out of 10
It was like I read Naruto, except there was sex involved. This VN reminded me of my Naruto reading days of times past. And that's not a good memory.

[Anonymous No.]

Around 8.5 I guess. It has a lot of shit I really like considering I'm a mythology nut, but the first route progression is mostly average tropes, and I didn't like some aspects about how Sakura's story developed.

[Anonymous No.]

10

I'm kind of happy I'm still not in the cool kids club of /jp/ when it comes to FSN.

[Anonymous No.]

-6

[Anonymous No.]

HF>UBW>>FATE

HF has the best Gar moments.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885538
Also 8 out of 10.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885538
>best Gar moments.
But it's not even a route about Archer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885411
7,5 or 8. Wasn't as bad as some people here said.

[Anonymous No.]

Gave it a 85/100 in egs.
It's definitely a must read eroge despite its faults and actually pretty impressive for when it was released.
Though it was surpassed in every areas since then

[Anonymous No.]

10/10

Thanks to Realta Nua, and not just because of the additional epilogue.

[Anonymous No.]

8.5 or so.
Fairly nice scripting/effects work for KiriKiri and being released in 2004.

[Anonymous No.]

7/10

Enjoyed the routes but I'd never read it again.

[Anonymous No.]

8/10, I don't hate TM shit.

[Anonymous No.]

7 or 8, because even though it filled me with constant anger and rage at the characters, it was fun in its own way.

[Anonymous No.]

If it's a VN, it's shit.
0/10

[Anonymous No.]

Mmm, first time I read it the HF route was only 20% translated. Guess now is as good a time as any to finally finish it up. Anyone know which file to delete to reset the "you've already seen this scene, skip y/n"?

[Anonymous No.]

6 or 7. Wasn't as bad as some people told me it would be. For being released in 2004, it's a very good-looking game, and even though I can't get a feel for the writing and I hated most of the cast, it was enjoyable.

I'd never read it again, though.

[Anonymous No.]

10, it was too good.

[Anonymous No.]

It's good for its time but obsolete now that Muramasa exists since it does everything FSN does but hundred times better.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7885538
HF > Fate > UBW

UBW has almost no Ilya and her major scene was rather unpleasant to read.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885724
But HF has the most Sakura and every scene with Sakura in it is unpleasant to read!

[Anonymous No.]

If we're debating routes, here's my take

Fate: Meh storywise, because it's practically a prologue to the later routes. But it has the best romance (imo felt more natural than the others) so it's still good.
UBW: Didn't exactly excel in any one particular area, but everything about it was good, probably making it the overall best route.
HF: A large collection of the absolute best scenes in the game. However as a whole the route drags way too much with insane pacing issues, making it tough to call it the best route. Also Sakura romance is kind of sprung on you (feels like nasu says "shut up its her route shirou loves her"), leading many Anon's to wish Mind of Steel was the true end.

no perfect routes, no bad routes, just different routes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885714
Muramasa-Reading for 20 minutes for them to strike swords once

[Anonymous No.]

I like how people here desperately cite EGS ratings when they want to "prove" that a VN is shit but conveniently ignore them when a VN they don't like is actually good.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885762
Where was EGS cited to prove that FSN is shit in this thread?
You are far too paranoiac.

>>7885756
And it's 20 awesome minutes

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885762
People were talking about their own ratings on egs, not the average score. Some people have accounts on there too as it allows for a better rating scale than vndb.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885770
>Where was EGS cited to prove that FSN is shit in this thread?

It wasn't cited. That's the point. Even though EGS invariably comes up in pretty much every other VN thread (usually to make a case for why x VN that other people like is garbage), no one bothered to mention the fact that FSN has an average rating of 90 and a huge number of reviewers.

[Anonymous No.]

ITT: Who else here wishes that no one was translating VNs? Because for me, nothing is more annoying when /a/ and /v/ discover something you've liked for a long time, and the new, horrendous fanbase forces you to dissociate yourself from it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885792
>no one bothered to mention the fact that FSN has an average rating of 90 and a huge number of reviewers.
And?

FSN was the first eroge for many people in Japan, it's just very mainstream compared to most other eroge, that's why it got all these votes and a median of 90.
Of course I'm not saying it's a bad game but that's the primary reason, it's just pretty impressive for newcomers.

For a title that followed the same path, see Family Project.
Again it was a title that got a lot of hype back in the early 2000 and was the first for many.
But is it really worth a 90+?

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7885798
Just keep telling people that you liked them before they went mainstream. I'm sure they'll appreciate that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885805
Eba's route is worth 100%.

That said, the same situation applies to MLA, so your point is null and void.
F/SN is objectively good, or at least held in high regard by a majority of VN readers, deal with it and stop hating what we like.

[Anonymous No.]

I'd give it a 7/10.
Good, not great.

It has the potential to be a 9 or a 10, but nasu's writing just has a tendency to get flubbed at the worst of times, either inadvertently causing a scene to be pretty good or fall flat on its face.
Also, exhausted explanations.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885827
For one I'm not hating it at all, stop being a faggot.
And I just provided an explanation, it's a fact that both FSN and Kazokei were the first for many.

Honestly while I like both games I do think they have a bit too many flaws to be considered among the bests though.
That's not hating, just stating my opinion.
Oh and MLA really doesn't follow the same formula, it's really not as mainstream as both titles and a bit of a deterrent for newcomers.

I remember the shitstorms when MLA was released and people got to Marimo's scene, a LOT of people were pissed off and it was downvoted a whole lot in EGS.
It was a bit later when people started reading it for real it got the great votes it has now.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885827
>>7885856
Haha oh wow. Are all MLA fans this defensive about their babby's first mecha shit?

[Anonymous No.]

fate/stay retard
fate/stay autism

[Anonymous No.]

I just want to know, why are there so few fans of the best character? Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one on /jp/...

[Kudryavka !!wEyYEw5OlKU No.]

Good game that hipsters dislike too much for being popular and people new to the medium like too much for being their first. It's a solid 8 to me, and I only believe there are two VNs that deserve a 10, and most really amazing VNs are 9s.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885833
>Nasu's writing

While not especially good, it's not especially bad either. It's just that Takajun can't translate for shit, which is why Swan Song reads like Autism: the VN in English and why some of the scenes in Rance VII read very differently than their originals.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885875
Are you retarded? /jp/ has a lot of her fans.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885880
> I only believe there are two VNs that deserve a 10
which, out of curiosity? Not asking just to criticize them, simply curious.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885907
Where are they all hiding?

[Anonymous No.]

How can anyone honestly say HF is the best route. You nerds have no taste at all.

[Kudryavka !!wEyYEw5OlKU No.]

>>7885914
Clannad and Cross Channel, though I might add YU-NO to this list if I ever manage to finish the thing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885924
I was at some panel at AX called "Bro, Check Out This Visual Novel Shit, It's Hella Tight" or something, and they took a poll of the audience of their favorite F/SN route. About 3/4 of the audience raised their hand for Heaven's Feel.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885833
Nasu has problems with integrating explanations naturally into a story, which is a challenge for a lot of writers, especially those that focus on worldbuilding first and want to write a dictionary instead of a novel. Not that I would know, but it feels like he suffers from a recurring problem in the VN scene (especially doujin) which is not having a fucking editor or the good sense of what to cut. He's best at action and horror and when he's not advancing this his writing tends to drag—he's capable of writing better slice of life but it's like he doesn't know how to make it matter, which is why like half of FHA is pointless and boring in between some genuinely entertaining and poignant scenes. Other authors are either better at slice of life in general or are better at integrating development like this alongside an action plot.

The unearthly success of his brand so early on in his career does not bode well for developing his talent or skill, especially since he doesn't seem to have done that much since his last game came out six years ago.

[Anonymous No.]

10, loved it. Even if there were a couple iffy parts in there as a whole it was incredible.

[Anonymous No.]

Pisses me off a little bit that UBW gets the circlejerk and HF gets the shaft. HF was more compelling and traded ass-kicking for interpersonal relationships and sacrifice. I hate to jump on the "too deep for you" bandwagon, but...

Plus, Sparks Liner High was better than any fight I can remember from UBW

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885934
HF has a much different tone than the other two routes, plus it introduces serious twists on the concepts the other two took for granted—in fact, part of the reason why Sakura is so unpopular, I think, is that the fact that she is in any way relevant to the plot is concealed right up until HF (other than the chekov's gun of the fact that she's one of the heroines). So she doesn't get the cross-route development of the other girls (especially Rin, who doesn't actually get much focus in her own route). Also, Nasu was fighting an uphill battle to make her sympathetic and basically wasn't up to the task.

HF is also very dark, and it sees the return of Nasu's talent for horror writing. There's more danger and trepidation and less powerlevels, which I think tends to make for a better story anyway.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885961
Honestly I think HF didn't went far enough.
People may say it was dark compared to the other routes but even then it just wasn't THAT dark.
It still had that 王道 shonen feeling.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885961
There's also the fact that 95% the likable characters were killed of very early on, or barely present, on top of Shirou becoming very unlikable.

[Anonymous No.]

5/10.
The problem is, it is a chore to read it.
The good stuff is good, but it's crammed into the endings. And the rest is not amusing at all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885989
>95%
You mean Lancer, Gilgamesh and the caster team now is 95% of the likable characters?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885972
Granted, but for what it is, it's very dark—if you wanted to go there, you could say that HF is the Empire Strikes Back of FSN.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886004
They were the only likable characters outside of Ilya, so yes.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886004
Archer was killed pretty early on as well. "Good Saber" as well...

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886004
i think its because of the other routes aswell.
In Fate you learn about them but didnt really see them do stuff. in UBW they are awesome and really have some potential and you get attached to them (especially Lancer for me) .

You start HF with these feeling and they all die like some little bitches.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886009
Well, Kotomine as well, but I couldn't exactly call him likable as much as interesting.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7885989
But HF has the most Ilya compared to the other routes. Why do you dislike SHirou in HF?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886004
Lancer and Gilgamesh truly are likable. I'm not gay, but I'd have sex with Gilgamesh, just because he's awesome.

[Anonymous No.]

8/10.
I liked it a lot, but too it was a bit too power levels for my taste. HF > UBW ~= Fate. HF normal end in particular was fantastic.

>>7885928
I agree with your other two choices (cc and yu-no), but what exactly makes clannad worth a 10/10? I haven't read it, but I watched the anime, and it seemed fairly typical Key fare. Is there anything in the game that makes it rise above Kanon and Air? Is it worth spending 50+ hours to read if you're not really into Key stuff?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886009

No one in FSN is truly unlikable outside of Shinji, but Caster, Gilgamesh, and Illya are some of the least likeable in the series, so you have some interesting taste there

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886027
UBW Shirou was so much better.

I'm not him, by the way.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886033
>Gilgamesh, and Illya are some of the least likeable in the series

What? How can you not love her? She's so nice and cool.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886033
>Caster, Gilgamesh, and Illya are some of the least likeable in the series
>Gilgamesh
>Ilya
Them's fightin' words, Anon.

[Kudryavka !!wEyYEw5OlKU No.]

>>7886032
Clannad's main story is as good as or better than any of the other Key games, and After Story is by far the most emotionally powerful work I've ever read. After Story also breaks out of a lot of the tropes and stereotypes that Key usually works with, which helps it rise well above everything else they've done.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7885955
HF was depressing.
UBW still clinged to the idea of hope.

Shirou does end up really heroic and all that in the end of HF, not unlike UBW. But the path through HF is a dirty one full of dissaster and failure on the hero's side that stretches beyond merely being powerless.
It is kind of cool though that he gets his chin up from the gutter even in that situation, and proceeds to do his best to save everyone even so.

Also, Shirou's romance with Sakura, while very believable, isn't explored that much at all, and you are for most better off just throwing it off as "it makes sense, they should be infatuated with eachother after all.".
Meanwhile Shirou and Rin's romance is the most explored one in the entire story.
And Shirou and Saber shares the most scenes/time together (on screen. Sakura is still the one he have been with the most.)

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886046
To compare HF to the others.
UBW still have a proper build up. There are ups and downs but the hurdles throughout the story are basically overcome. He gets to know Rin and learns how to work together. Rin learns more about Archer and Shirou and attempts to guide/help and even remedy Shirou's mind. And they get to know eachother quite well, despite never having known eachother before.
Even when the group is rendered relatively powerless, it doesn't end up screwing the group entirely over, they even find new and powerful allies that gave it their all helping them.
Shirou is confronted with the flaws of his ideal and when and how it won't work out if his mind stays as locked as it is, as well as elaborating on the living hell that awaits him if nothing changes. Cue point though, here it is all theoretical, and the hero with pure intentions isn't wholeefully screwed over, and the world around him doesn't suffer because of it.

In comparison HF basically starts with the Hero being screwed over on numerous occasions only to proceed with the hero to be screwed over completely. Proceeding as a story of how said hero gets up, tries to make the best of things, after everything have been screwed over. he manages to do a quite decent job considering what was already lost and what couldn't be done, and to succeed as he did is pretty darn impressing.
But the story as a whole is pretty darn depressing.
It goes down, down, and down, and eventually, a bit up. Wheras the others can go both up, then down, and up again, a bit up and down, and then end on a note that isn't sour. Nothing outright wrong with a story that is a somewhat more bitter, but it doesn't appeal as much to everyone.

And these posts weren't supposed to be this long, so I won't compare HF and UBW to Fate.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886027
I haven't read HF since the English patch originally came out, so I can't remember concrete reasons well, but I do remember along with everything else I disliked about HF, Shirou was among the things I most seriously grew to dislike.
Him becoming much less relatable in HF didn't help I'm sure.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886041
Mentality of a child, no moral compass, whines like a little bitch when powerless, etc. etc., tl;dr she's a fucking awful character.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886056
All those things you listed are cute, and are the reason I love her.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7886056
To quote someone else:

Her violent outbreaks are beside the point. That's only because she thought Shirou stole away her only family.

Her Family House only cares about using her as a tool to get their centuries-old wishes, her mother is DEAD, her father, who she played with as a young girl, abandoned her, she had to go through hell trying to control a monstrous beast of a servant that would cause her unimaginable pain if he even moved a muscle, and to top it all off, she isn't even human, and will die in one year despite anything.

One year.

Ilya has one year to live, and she has nothing. No family, no friends, no one that loves or cares about her, and her entire purpose of existence as defined by her Einzbern House is to become a personality-less vessel for a magical grail so her selfish House can have their wish.

She had a mother that loved her, once, and she had a father that she enjoyed playing with in the snow. They laughed together, played together, and teased each other. Ilya pouted at her father's cheating during their games, and Iris watched her family with a smile.

And now all of them are gone. Her mother is dead, her father ran away, and when she chased after him, it turns out he died, but only after adopting a son you never heard of. He adopted another child, despite running off on the daughter he already had. He abandoned Ilya, ran away from her, and adopted a boy a year younger than her. And her father stayed there with that son, lived with him, and became his father, completely ignoring Ilya.

Also, You're strong, Berserker.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886056
Being awful and unlikeable are too different things.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886041
>>7886044

Not >>7886033 but gee I wonder why they're not so likeable...

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886066
I agree, but I wonder if the reason that people make this allowance for her, and not Sakura who has it worse, is because Sakura is not underaged with white air.

Just saying.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886073
She's not underage either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886073
Maybe because Sakura is huge bitch, even in Fate and UBW?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886083
By not doing anything at all but reliquinship her master rights so as not to fight shiro?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886046
>>7886051

good read thanks for that

well at least Hfs true ending is kind of the "after all that shit we went through you at least get the girl and are satisfied" while in Fate where everything is happy doppy but the ending leaves a bitter taste in mouth

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886066
I understand there are circumstances, but the personality resulting from them is still one that I cannot come to respect. I think she's cute and all, but for me that's all she's got going for herself.

Besides, as a MoS advocate I hold a grudge against Ilya for attempting to meddle with Shirou's determination.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886092
No. During the slice of life scenes in those routes what little presence she has outside of being "that girl who cooks" is acting like a jealous bitch.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886096
Shiro is the only thing she has.
Taker her little housewife game away from her and she becomes an empty shell.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886101
Yeah, maybe that's why people don't like her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886041
Illya is cool but her sociopathy is almost completely unexplored and comes out at random times to make her act like a fucking monster in bad ends for no discernable reason. Sakura, while acting childish, has crystal clear reasons for lashing out at the world.

As others have mentioned, Illya has more than enough reason to hate the world too, but those motivations aren't ever connected with her psychotic state. This is probably more of a consequence of her not having a fucking route than anything else though.

Gilgamesh is cool character and great villain, but he's a fucking arrogant bastard. By contrast, Kotomine is eerily eloquent and relatable, so while he's totally evil, he's easy to sympathize with.

Caster is sympathetic but she acts like the villainess of a saturday morning cartoon. She's probably the most likable of them, but she doesn't show much of that side. She's used to playing the role of villain and is really good at it, which is fitting with her character. She's a tragic figure, not necessarily a likable one.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886096
She has pretty good reason to be jealous, seeing as Shirou literally is the only hope she has in her life, and even then, she herself notes that she's perfectly okay with him choosing someone else.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886115
This is basically how I feel as well.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886096
whaat. She's so allowing of the other girls it's heartbreaking. She never does anything to stand in their way, she just silently bears the fact that her heart is breaking.

How is this acting like a "jealous bitch"? Of course she's jealous, but expecting her to not be is crazy.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886094
Go read last episode.Pretty much my favorite thing he has written.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886115
She's not sociopathic. Remember how she cried when Berserker died. Just because she can be cruel WHEN NEEDED doesn't mean she's a sociopath.

Illya is a good girl.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886127
>crappy tacked on fanfic because said girl has the most fans
>best thing he has writtem

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886132
Go be a fag elsewhere,Mike.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886046
Your summation of the romances is probably the most accurate—although I'd say that his relationship with Rin is the least ROMANTICALLY explored of the three, but as she plays a major role in every route the dynamic between her and shirou ends up being explored more than anyone else.

Sakura's romance has the issue of them needing to break so she can be the final boss, instead of Saber who just deepens with Shirou until the final battle.

[Anonymous No.]

If Rin stayed the protagonist throughout the whole thing, and potential love interests included
Shirou, Archer, Lancer and end with an "isn't it sad Issei?"

How could F/SN have fared as an otome game?
You do have a strong female protagonist, and a bunch of people who summon a bunch of "fabulousier than thou" people of legend, all while they might be rather fabulous themselves.
It does sound like an otome game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886132
You're reading comprehension needs some work there, Anon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886136
You forget the Gilgamesh route.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886130
>cruel WHEN NEEDED

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886130
I don't think you know what a sociopath is.

Just because she cares about one person doesn't mean she's not a sociopath.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886136
maleShirou.jpg

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886136
FSN's groundwork called for a genderswaped saber and shirou, but if you like at the personalities suggested by their design, it seems clear to me at least that their dynamic was going to be the same as Rin and Archer.

I think FSN would make a great otome game, but come on, who gives a shit about shirou? I'd throw in gil instead and we can get some great rape fantasy stuff going on.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886136
>FSN
>as otome game

oh god. it would look like pic related then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886136
>His pulsing member feels like an electric eel squirming into my undersea cavern.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886144
>who gives a shit about shirou?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886137
>You forget the Gilgamesh route.
Yes, I forgot the Gilgamesh route. Forgive me.
It was at the back of my head and I just couldn't get to it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886139
I'm sure she didn't do it for long. Besides, she had good reasons to hate him.
>>7886140
Well, enlighten me, then.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886133
>>7886134
Butthurt Saberfags are butthurt.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886146
I really wish someone would draw a fanart of shirou jumping the bar, then turning around to see every girl in Type-Moon history watching him.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886149
>I'm sure she didn't do it for long.
Are you literally trying to suggest that this would somehow make it better? And are you also not realizing that scene implies the exact opposite of your conclusion about Illya? What possible evidence do you have that she wouldn't do it for long?

Your demeanor is calm, but your evidence is nil.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886152
The high jump bar > The Tohno Gland.

This is under the assumption that the bar has a guaranteed success rate, but we need a bigger sample size to be sure since Ayako, Rider, and Taiga seem to have the hots for him without seeing him jump it. So, I suppose that a more accurate statement would be:

High Jump Bar + Emiya Gland > Tohno Gland
With the corollary that the Emiya Gland is weaker than the Tohno Gland.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886161
His heart has already been claimed by the white witch.

[Mike No.]

>>7886151
Fucking butthurt Saber fans. :P

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886149
Having daddy issues isn't an excuse to torture somebody she barely knows for as long as she likes without even letting him die. You'd have a better chance trying to argue that Dark Sakura's actions in Femme Fatale were justified.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886161
Well, yes, it would obviously be better. Would you rather be tortured for a long time than for a short time?

This scene doesn't prove me wrong. I said she could be cruel when needed. She did it for revenge, which isn't the same thing than taking a random person in the street and torturing him/her, which she never did.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886149
You're trying far too hard to rationalize Ilya's sociopathy or cruelty in general friend. Your point has already been disproven, please don't drag this discussion out any longer than it should be, for other's opinions of you will just drop.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886173
I forgot to add: let's not forget you can do cruel things without being a sociopath. You can be a sociopath and kill nobody, and be normal and kill several people. It depends on the circumstances (which were REAL bad for Illya)

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886173
>I said she could be cruel when needed.

At the risk of philosphical discussion, there is never a reason that it is ever "needed" to be cruel, which is why being cruel makes you a bad person in eyes of pretty much anyone. You are arguing that it was necessary for her to torture someone to death for a crime he had no knowledge of or control over. In fact, it's his father's crime, and shirou's innocent.

You can understand her motivation, but calling it "needed"? That's insane.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886170
They were, she just made her beloved sister that obviously understood her and her pain (self-proclaimed) taste what she had gone through.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886160
>Taiga
That comes from her fetish for Kiritsugu.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886173
The fact that she tortured him at all is what's important. Her "revenge" is flimsy and irrational as fuck to begin with (Daddy never came home and died before I could kill him, let's kill this guy who doesn't even know me instead!), and the torture just proves that she's nothing but a crazed sadist.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886190
>>7886195
Let's not forget he was also her enemy because of the grail war. And that she let him live plenty of times when she could have killed him.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7886095
You do realize that Shirou betrays his ideal in the MoS end, right? No matter which choice Shirou makes he has to abandon his ideal. After all his ideal to save everyone and Sakura is an innocent as she hasn't consciously killed anyone by that point. The murders can be blamed on Zouken who's turning her into the shadow and sending her out. She just thinks she's having nightmares and considering what Zouken does to her it's natural for her to think that.

[Anonymous No.]

BTW, just to close out the Illya discusion, it's important that we separate our personal feelings from what the text actually supports. Illya is a good character with a lot of potential that unfortunately suffers from from inexplicable psychotic behavior. Honestly though, I think both she and Sakura suffer from gaps in development—Nasu has the difficult task of not wanted to absolve either of their sins while still making them lovable and sympathetic. He pulls this off very well with Kohaku, but for whatever reason—perhaps the focus on action, or maybe that Illya and Sakura had their routes crammed together—doesn't quite pull it off.

It may be silly to blame their character flaws on the writer rather than the characters, but it's clear that Nasu wanted to make them more sympathetic but couldn't pull it off.

To be honest, i think FSN needs a remake more than Tsukihime, at least in terms of writing.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7886195
Considering all the torment she has been through, it's understandable for her to lash out irrationally when she first meets Shirou. Later on when she gets to know him she mellows out significantly as she views him as her only family.

And there's no reason to think her objective was to kill Kiritsugu.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886219
>And there's no reason to think her objective was to kill Kiritsugu.

Especially since she loved him, but those people would say anything to diabolize her.

Whatever, I don't care if people think she's a sociopath. She's my waifu and I love her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886210
Yeah, yeah. I know, but I still say choosing to save more at the expense of the few is truer to his ideal. Besides, I'm not even talking about Sakura here. I just don't think Ilya had a place in interfering with Shirou's introspection. Of all people how can she tell Shirou what is right and what is wrong...?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886235
>Of all people how can she tell Shirou what is right and what is wrong...?
By being older than him, having lived both a very rough and pampered life with its ups and downs.
As well as being abnormally aware of things etc by being top class homunculus, so she shouldn't be a bad thinker in itself.

Also, by being a conduit for the grail, she have a connection with Archer.
>"I pity you, Shirou.
>You're going to be deceiving yourself forever with that crying face of yours."

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886219
Ugh, I hate still arguing this, but how can you call that cold, utterly purposeful and drawn out torture "lashing out irrationally" ?

Look, I know you like Illya, but you're just going to have to deal with the fact that she did some fucked up things and Nasu never bothered to explain why. Blame the writer if you want, but you can't pretend that stuff didn't happen, and that there is very little convincing motivation for it.

It's unfortunate. I wish this aspect of Illya was fleshed out more as well; it would make her a more interesting and developed character. So I sympathize with your sentiments, but I can't just ignore what it says right there in the VN.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886272
>>7886235
>what is right and what is wrong...?
Also, she didn't tell her what was wrong, she told her what's only normal, and what was not wrong.
That's a whole other issue than saying what is right and what is wrong. She actually steps back and lets Shirou follow through with his decisions in the end in either choice.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

Everyone that takes part in the Grail War is a sociopath. No socially adjusted person would WANT to be a part of it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886291
You just need to kill some people to get whatever wish you want.
It's not THAT bad of a deal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886291
Fuck you, if I had a chance to get a mythic husbando/waifu, even if only for a short period of ~14 days max, I'd take it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886235
I would argue that it is no way truer to his ideal because the whole point of his ideal was that it was ideal—that's the point, as it were, of UBW. In Fate, he's lucky and fulfills his ideal without trouble, but in UBW he is forced for the first time to confront how unrealistic it is, and in the end chooses to fight for his ideal not because he's thinking of fulfilling it but merely because it is beautiful. He aspires to save as many as he possibly can, without sacrifice.

That's why I believe, considering the way this ideal is approached, saving Sakura is actually the truer path, because his ideal does not allow for sacrifice or compromise. Basically, his ideal is the pure pursuit of saving everyone, not getting closest to succeeding in saving everyone. Until he kills dark saber, he doesn't compromise. But it's the sacrifice of another that's the betrayal, not the failure of letting someone die.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886272
Please refer to >>7886275
From an ethical standpoint I don't think Ilya should be giving advice to someone who wants to be a hero of justice. Maybe it's not how he really feels with HF's circumstances, but Shirou's standards are quite different from Ilya's.

Moreover, Shirou will not become Archer in this scenario. By choosing to steel his mind, he has become Kiritsugu.

>>7886287
Shirou is someone who acts based on what he thinks is right. What she does is basically telling him it's wrong to sacrifice Sakura.

>>7886291
I'm pretty sure most people would kill a few people to have their wish come true. Of course, I'm not advocating this mentality.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886291
A decent portion of the participants could give a shit about the grail. Rider, Shirou, Lancer, Assassin, to name a few, are fighting for their own reasons and killing people for wishes is not on their menu.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7886309
They wouldn't outright kill someone for it. That's the whole point of being socially adjusted. If someone was carrying a gold bar in plain view of you on the street, you wouldn't walk over, cut his head off, and take it. That's not what you do in a society with authority and laws. You certainly wouldn't do the completely horrible things that nearly everyone does in the war, such as Kotomine running a child buffet for Gilgamesh, Shinji the Brave having Rider going around eating people's lunch, Caster draining an entire town dry, etc.

Shirou is the most well-adjusted of the group socially, and even he doesn't give a real fuck about people getting hurt for social reasons. He doesn't want it to happen because HE doesn't want it to happen. It doesn't matter what society says about it. Society doesn't tell you to become a superhero. It tells you to support your local police.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886343
>/jp/
>socially adjusted
Really now?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886307
Not him, but I feel the same way...

Shirou lets dozens of people die when he chooses to let Sakura live. That is the embodiment of him completely leaving aside his ideal (0% chance of becoming Archer in HF), unlike with Mind of Steel where he goes for the second best thing in regard to his previous path of life. He may not intentionally kill innocents, but he would let them perish in place of Sakura. With Mind of Steel however, he will efficiently save the highest number of people. Pragmatism and utilitarianism. Shirou will become a hero in Mind of Steel. It doesn't fucking matter whether or not you love them. Each life counts as "1," and what counts is which direction the scale is tipping in at the end of the road.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886309
>What she does is basically telling him it's wrong to sacrifice Sakura.
What she does is basically telling him it's not wrong to save her.

She is just giving him the message that he doesn't have to sacrifice her, and that the world can't fully blame him. Ala "even a child knows" etc.
One can always blame a "man" for not being "mature" enough, but that's its own issue altogether, not sacrificing one's loved ones is as innocent as it gets.
Iliya just conveyed this to him and let him do as he pleased.

She also happens to know that Shirou/EMIYA altogether, is far from cut, and not the type, to make sacrifices.
That doesn't place in their ideal, and they can't cope with that. Despite all the shit they put themselves through, they are actually very fragile when they can't protect their ideal.

And there was no "right" here. Both instances were equally "failures" in correlation to their ideal.
The situation as it was, introduced an element of choice, the element of preference.
A "privelage" he had not had before.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886309
I basically feel the same way as >>7886359. Wouldn't want to make you read two huge posts. What Shirou wants is to have everyone happy, right? Then in terms of numbers, I think the more people he saves, the closer he will be to his ideal.

Perhaps it'd be something like, the final outcome (people saved - people sacrificed, maybe with some deviation) for MoS would be vastly preferable to saving Sakura, in which case dozens die for one girl. A sick way of thinking, but that's how utilitarianism works.

>>7886343
You think so? I might be getting a little cynical here, but I think the only reason many wouldn't kill outright is because of said "authority and laws." With the Grail War, it's highly unlikely to get caught and the reward is far more than a mere gold bar.

Also, I don't believe Kotomine and Shinji, to an extent, are fair examples.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886359
Right, but my argument is that "pragmatism and utilitarianism," as you put it, is a firm betrayal of the IDEAL of Shirou. Of course there's zero chance of becoming Archer, because Archer himself is a betrayal of this ideal. That was what Archer realized during his fight with Shirou in UBW.

Remember, Shirou isn't a pragmatist, and neither is his ideal—that's Kiritsugu.

I'm sure my argument about choosing Sakura won't convince many, but I remain firm in saying that there is no "lesser" betrayal of his ideal, because the whole point of his ideal is the pursuit of its impossible beauty. By accepting compromise the ideal is destroyed.

This is not the logical course that someone might take, but remember that Shirou is not entirely logical, and neither is wanting to become a goddamn superhero—that's as irrational and emotional as it gets.

[Anonymous No.]

To sum up the Ilya-fag's arguments: it's perfectly justifiable to not only kill someone because his father hurt you, but it's also okay to torture said person and put them through unbearable pain until you're bored with them. This does not make you a sociopath, or a cruel person in any way, it's directly comparable to a child lashing out at his parents for abandoning him.

You're retarded, get out of this thread.
This claim is so ridiculously absurd that the only way it can even begin to be put into a beneficial light is to bring up the subject of morality, but that's clearly not what we're talking about now. It's a grail war and killing others is fine in the context of it, but putting someone through needless torture just because of your daddy issues and just because you 'can' makes you a horrible person with flimsy ethics and morals. I understand if you guys like Ilya, but trying to justify torture and borderline murder is asinine.

Also, Shirou is NOT well adjusted. If you're referring to how clear his actions and thoughts are, then yes; but in other circumstances, the word doesn't even come close to describing him.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7886348
/jp/ is not representative of society at large. At all. And we're discussing society at large, not what we would do.

Me? I would hope to get a moe moe servant, figure out a way to supply her and keep her around indefinitely, and then skip town. Fuck the Grail War. I'm going to marry my waifu.

If I have to beat a few servants and kill a few masters to do it, well, that's their problem for coming after me.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886385
What if your waifu wants a Holy Grail?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886371
>>7886383
I think the problem here is that you view this matter in terms of "all or nothing" and we don't. Maybe considering Shirou's thought process both are total and utter bastardizations of his ideal, but from my perspective (to reiterate: from my perspective) endeavoring to save as many as possible, sacrifices or not, is simply "closer" to his dream.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886389
>Also, Shirou is NOT well adjusted. If you're referring to how clear his actions and thoughts are, then yes; but in other circumstances, the word doesn't even come close to describing him.

This, we're used to the concepts of superheros and accept their existence in media so readily that we often forget that wanting to be one is pretty much insane. Shirou's ideal is not a pragmatic philosophy of the maximum number of lives saved, it's the pursuit of a human impossibly.

Despite FSN living up to a lot of shounen cliches, it actually critiques the idea of superheros in some fairly harsh ways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886395
This is the exact situation with Caster, incidently.

[Anonymous No.]

I think the confusion people have with Shirou's ideals is that there's essentially two aspects of it that gets distorted and not made clear. The most common interpretation is
>I want to save everyone!
Which is also very similar to Kiritsugu's ideal of wanting a better world in which no one dies and everyone is happy. Clearly, this is retarded and can never be achieved due to human nature. The other aspect of the ideal, and the one that Shirou tries to uphold even more fiercely is
>I don't want to see anyone in front of me cry
This is an important claim that needs to be understood. If we're going by this statement, then in HF, Shirou did not betray his ideals, at all. By placing Sakura above other nameless people and protecting her at all costs, he will save her and never see her cry; others who suffer and die are outside of his view and he simply ignores them. This is not a contradiction of the ideal.

Of course, both versions are flawed in that one plays by selfish human nature while the other removes the 'human' factor from the equation, turning everything into a game of numbers.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7886389
Shirou is socially well-adjusted. He makes good grades, takes part in activities, uses his skills for peoples' benefit, obeys the law, has a high level of personal responsibility, and is actually quite good at dealing with people on a normal level. Once people overlook his "becoming a hero" shtick, they tend to like him. Even Shinji, on some level, "likes" Shirou, even if Shinji is a complete dick to him because of Shinji's inferiority complex.

Being socially well-adjusted doesn't mean being a normal person, it just means you can play one when you're with other people. You don't start ripping off people's heads when you're on the street. You say "please" and "thank you" instead of "And now you die." You don't try to turn your school into a picture of Hell.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886408
I've been confused by that before. I never could tell which was his ideal, to save everyone in the world or to save everyone in front of him. I interpreted it as the former being Kiritsugu's ideal that Shirou inherited and the latter being Shirou's true feelings.

[Anonymous No.]

HF doesn't put enough weight on the whole Sakura ordeal surprisingly enough.
The lives of the people she killed, or rather than Shirou let die, feel very light when you read it.

If Nasu actually had portrayed the whole thing well there would be no ambiguous bullshit.
The life of the loved one against the lives of hundreds people is a false dilemma. ANYONE who isn't completely evil, and especially Shirou, would choose to save the hundreds people, not only because it's the "good" thing to do but for the sake of the loved one who went completely berserk as well.
Usually it's not nice for the mental sanity to know you are responsible for the death of so much people, even if you weren't yourself at the time.

But at the end of HF, nothing. Everything is forgiven and forgotten.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7886235
In Mind of Steel Shirou ends up like Kiritsugu, a tortured broken shell of a man who has sacrificed all the people he loved in order to save strangers. Ilya realizes that and since she likes him she doesn't want him to go down that path.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7886407
If Souichiro had said "I don't need a Grail or a wish. All I need is you. So, consider what you really want, too.", Caster would've raped him senseless all day, every day, and never had a chance to try and take over the world. He never told her what he wanted, though, so their dysfunctionality killed them. Caster was trying to win the war because she figured she had to in order to stay with Souichiro. Souichiro was just going along with her master plan because that's his nature.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886408
This. It's important to mark the distinction between Kiritsugu's ideals and Shirou's ideals. It's not portrayed clearly in the game, but they are both fundamentally different.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886378
>Then in terms of numbers
This doesn't really fit well into their ideal.
As mentioned in >>7886371 they are awfully cut for making sacrifices, and it directly goes against a very core concept of their ideal.

To save Sakura would also save others. To not do this in time, or at all, would be a failure.
To sacrifice her though, would also be a blatant failure.

Also, for a little critique on the Mind of Steel end itself.
Shirou also becomes mentally scarred (hurr steeled) from the tauma, and he actually proceeds to dope off Rin and others as well. Shit's a wreck after that.
Hero or not, he basically prematurely lives the life of a Counter Guardian, and we all know that is basically as far away from their ideal as one can get, for one thing, for never being ideal. It even flaunts the unacceptable failures to ones face.

[Anonymous No.]

I like the music, the voices, and the art. Fights are detailed in a way I haven't seen yet.

But it drags on too much. It could be a quarter less long.
7, 5 being average.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886423
It's more because of Shirou's character.
He's a broken faggot that pursues infinitesimal things to the point of insanity and death. This explains why instead of taking the logical (and emotional choice, no false dichotomies here faggots) choice, he goes for a solution that satisfies everyone. Of course, going by Nasuverse Physics, this also means that there are a large amount of timelines where he fails and Japan gets nuked anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886406
No, I understand the distinction between our differing points of views. My argument mostly stems from that scene in UBW where he realizes the inherent impossibility of his ideal, yet decides to pursue it anyway—what's important here is that it clearly separates him from Archer, who decided that compromising to save the maximum number of lives would in fact be the closest to that ideal.

But Nasu draws a very clear distinction here between Archer and Shirou's points of view—Shirou decides that he will follow the ideal because it is beautiful, not because it is possible, while Archer followed what was possible.

The reason why I'm seeing it in terms of all or nothing is not because I personally believe that's the way the world works, but because that's how Nasu presents it in this scene. The way I understood it was that this is the true difference between Shirou and Archer—one is pragmatic, the other idealistic. Otherwise Shirou would have been Kiritsugu from the start—something very fundamental about that ideal is lost in Mind of Steel, and that's why I feel that to talk about "degrees" of his ideal is misleading, because I think the point is that for it to be what it is, it has to be perfect—at least, that's how I think Nasu presents it.

[Anonymous No.]

/jp/ - Master Debaters

Too bad it only comes into play when discussing useless bullshit.

[Anonymous No.]

The main problem with FSN is that while it's pretty fun to talk about and disect, when you actually read it it just doesn't feel that interesting.
Shirou for example, if you were to read that thread you'd see a pretty original and interesting character but in the game itself you really have to dig to get something from him.

There is something about the tempo of FSN and the way it was written, it feel like it was always fall one step short.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

Also, we aren't discussing the true heroine of Fate, and it saddens me greatly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886408
>This is not a contradiction of the ideal.
He surely does know that the sacrifice of Sakura wouldn't be a happy thing, even if disregarding himself.
Tears will be shed, and scars of life will be engraved in either scenario.
A or B, people will cry rivers.

While I very much do think that you bring up an important point of about his ideal.
I do think you make a mistake by seperating the parts too much.
He wants everyone to be saved, so that they can smile.

Sacrificing Sakura fullfills netiher of this. It is all a question of "quantity".
It gets down to that bussiness of counting numbers again. I do not believe counting numbers fare well in relation to his ideal. Go that path and you have basically failed before you even started, it results in either Kiritsugu or Archer, and Shirou himself will be a wreck in either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886452
It isn't very well-rounded. It focuses all of its attention on one aspect like a laser, but when you look elsewhere it isn't all that fleshed out.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886448
His epiphany in UBW doesn't really make sense though. Even if he realizes the contradiction and changes from
>I pursue it because I have to
to
>I pursue it because it's beautiful
He'll still eventually run into a situation where he has to make a compromise... like Archer. Nasu says that they are on different paths now, that even if they arrive at the same place, they have different futures; which makes no sense in context and is more Nasu bullshit.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886423
>If Nasu actually had portrayed the whole thing well there would be no ambiguous bullshit.

The fact that you see nothing ambiguous about killing someone to save others is sort of the reason he wrote a story about the ambiguity of killing someone to save others.

If anything, the problem is that he doesn't portray it with enough ambiguity, because ambiguity makes for an interesting story.

If Nasu wrote a one-sided story like that, do you have any idea how boring and unsophisticated HF would have been? Moral ambiguity was the whole point of that route and its weird that you think it would be better without it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886458
>Too much separation between ideals
I don't think so. In every other route, when random people die or get drained, he feels sad like any human would, but quickly gets over it, precisely because they are no longer directly related to him. This is most evident in HF where the Shadow kills everyone and Shirou focuses more on saving Sakura instead.

So no, I believe that
>Wanting to see people in front of me not cry
is closer to his ideal rather than saving everyone.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886423
>Everything is forgiven and forgotten.
Rather, DENIAL MODE to the MAX.
I actually don't think any of them thought it was forgiven. And forget, I doubt they can.
Rather I think, none of them, dares to bring it up, like, ever.
They wouldn't be able to live like that. Do you think it would be morally superior to feel responsible and do suicide out of some kind of guilt? Heck, Shirou basically did that, partly at least, they just pulled him back.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7886469
Unlike Archer, Shirou will accept that bad things will happen in the future, that he will fail, and that it may be horrible, but he won't regret that fact. He'll let his ideal be a guide instead of a noose.

Like he says, failure isn't the end. If you fail to save someone, you try to save the next person. It's the same mental outlook that rescue people take in fire/police: even if someone dies, it's not your fault, and there's always a chance that you could save someone else. Making up for it is better than collapsing in on yourself with guilt.

Archer: Failure is the end of the dream.
Shirou: Failure is a possibility while pursuing the dream.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886435
That choice only satisfied him so no, it's not due to Shirou's character.
And my main problem was that Nasu pushed that choice as the right one which is pure BULLSHIT.
Nasu must be some kind of sociopath or something.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886448
I see. I was arguing from my viewpoint, not from that of the characters. Indeed, for Emiya Shirou there is only one "ideal." Matters of how similar an alternative might be are nonexistent and moot points.

[White Ren !F/6e6K1KCU No.]

10/10

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886484
>I actually don't think any of them thought it was forgiven. And forget, I doubt they can.
They were alive, happy, nobody to blame them and they didn't event talk about it once.
I don't see anything that point to "they are in denial".
Feel more like shitty writing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886483
>>Too much separation between ideals
You miss quoted me. I bet you realize that yourself, but I feel the need to clarify even so.
"Too much seperations between the different elements of his own ideal" would be more like it.
That's what I meant when I put it "seperating the parts". "Parts" wasn't well defined, should have clarified that.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886476
HF wasn't morally ambiguous, not by a long shot. People may argue that it states that the ideal is not wrong, but rather, it doesn't fit Shirou.

But to me, I feel as if Nasu is saying that the ideal is stupid, impossible, and striving for it makes you a bad person in the future. It's like telling a kid in Africa that he shouldn't strive to be an astronaut because there's no way he can ever achieve his dream.

[Anonymous No.]

8.5/10

The best part was the prologue.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886469
>He'll still eventually run into a situation where he has to make a compromise... like Archer
I think it's a matter of objectives and what they're aiming for. Of course Shirou will find himself in situations where he can't reach 100%, but he still aims for that 100%. Archer thinks 100% is impossible so he tries to balance so that he gets the highest percentage possible, but not 100%

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

1/10

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886485
Irrelevant.
At the end, there's nothing stopping him from making a contract to save more people, just like you describe. Even not going that far, there's nothing stopping him from playing the numbers game and becoming broken.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886509
The only real issue would come up if a dilemma like HF's was to come up. Which would he prioritize then?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886469
>He'll still eventually run into a situation where he has to make a compromise
Alright, so here's the thing—I don't think this is true, and that's why I argue for choosing Sakura to actually be within his ideal. The reason is because pursuing this ideal, while knowing it is impossible, allows for him to fail in living up to it. In other words, he can pursue the ideal but not accomplish it—so he can make the choice that doesn't result in the mathematical outcome of most saved lives if he's doing so in pursuit of his ideal.

I wouldn't argue that this isn't stupid or anything, but it's a different philosophy that, if stuck to, would result in a very different future shirou than Archer.

["iluvOP !ge9bznqAsg No.]

6, bad audio and the overwhelming lenght thats filled with pointless events troughout brings it down at least by 3.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886476
It's not about "saving someone innocent to save others" if you want to read this kind of story go read Eustia.

It's "stop the girl you love from doing horrible shits, not only for the sake of innocent people but for her sake as well".
It's completely different, here Sakura is directly responsible

There is nothing ambiguous about this.
Look at Muramasa for example, there is a similar situation with Kageaki and Hikaru and probably a lot more ambiguous considering Kageaki has known and loved Hikaru all her life.
But would anyone say that his choice to stop her at any cost is wrong? No, that's the only choice.

Turning a blind eye to someone who went on a homicidal rampage is something no one would do.

[ZUN !barYV1VtIA No.]

7/10 on my Universal Media Scale.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886509
But then he'd remember "I saved someone from a similar fate. I'd be a hypocrite if I took the path I saved ger from.".

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886526
>But then he'd remember "I saved someone from a similar fate. I'd be a hypocrite if I took the path I saved her from.".
fix'd

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7886502
>It's like telling a kid in Africa that he shouldn't strive to be an astronaut because there's no way he can ever achieve his dream.

Nasu seems to, throughout Fate, suggest that having dreams is a good thing, but that you should be really careful what it is you actually want. Everybody in Fate thinks they want one thing, but they actually want another. They all strive for the Grail to fulfill a wish, but the wish they think they want turns out not to be representative of their true desire.

The only people who seem to be aware of what their true desire is throughout Fate are Gilgamesh and Kotomine. Gilgamesh wants to be Gilgamesh. He doesn't have any other purpose than to be himself. Wish? What does he need a wish for. He's fucking Gilgamesh.

Kotomine? Kotomine wants to understand his own existence. He understands that his own existence is a love of evil and atrocity. Evil is the only thing that makes him happy. His jealousy at everyone else being able to find happiness with the blessing of the world, while Kotomine has to hide what makes him content and deny it to fit in, drives him. Him going wild at the end of Heaven's Failure is just his own way of living it up till the end. Kotomine is [evil], so he'll defend that realization, even in the face of the end of the world. It's all he's ever had, and all he has ever really wanted.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

6.

Generic action, hurp durp summons people!

NO SHIRO! YOU ARE THE SERVANTS!

The ost was pretty damn good though, and the system itself was fine; especially the chapter skip option for the initial segment of the game.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886533
>Gilgamesh wants to be Gilgamesh. He doesn't have any other purpose than to be himself. Wish? What does he need a wish for. He's fucking Gilgamesh.
I chuckled.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886509
>Even not going that far, there's nothing stopping him from playing the numbers game and becoming broken.
Now, we might perhaps not have enough data on this, in terms of how they would actually act.

But there is always the element of probability.
Archer, in search of the highest numbers of people saved, go for the choice with the highest chance of saving the most, and the least chance of many dying.

One could always guess, that in a scenario with 10 people.
Killing one would save the other nine in 90% of the time.
Wheras making no such sacrifice would save them all in 0-40% of the time at a later event.

Archer would go wtih A.
But Shirou, might possibly go with B, while still pursuing the dream.
Possibly. It does still sound likely though when compared to his actions in HF, and descision to not be Archer or Kiritsugu in UBW.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886534
And let's not forget

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886505
This, basically. Numerous people have stated it but this sums up the difference between Shirou and Archer simply and clearly.

Also, I don't think Nasu is pushing this as a morally right answer but merely another perspective to look at, and it's an interesting one.

For my part, I don't readily accept, as many people seem to, that it's always an unambiguously morally correct decision to sacrifice one person for the good of many. This is what I gathered from reading Heaven's Feel, and while I don't think Shirou's ideal is presented as a way for sane humans to live their lives, I think that it presents an interesting new perspective on whether we should take for granted the idea that any action, no matter how reprehensible, is justifiable if more human lives are saved.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886574
>, I don't readily accept, as many people seem to, that it's always an unambiguously morally correct decision to sacrifice one person for the good of many

The problem is that it's not a "sacrifice".
It's more like stopping a mad dog.
It's not a question of moral balance, to save A or B, it's a question of correlation, there A is trying to kill B.

It's a completely different situation and a completely different choice, Nasu portrayed it pretty badly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886593
Except that's not even close to what was going on at the time. Even if we disregard the fact that the Shadow=/=Sakura herself, it didn't start killing civilians until a day after the decision.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886593
>It's more like stopping a mad dog.
If, to watch over, calm down, reason with and help the dog is an option, then shooting it in the head would very well be a sacrifice.

Especially if it is a nice dog that never wanted to harm anyone.
As you brought up animals, you made me remember a fable I heard many times as a kid.
Basically, you want to straight out kill the (actually really really nice) beast that happens to be on a rampage due to a shard stuck under his foot.

I don't think it's nice to compare Sakura at that state with a mad dog. She is indeed innocent and never wanted to hurt anyone, not aware even of what she was doing.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886523
Then I'm confused what you're arguing? Stopping her doesn't necessarily mean killing her, and shirou has no options to do anything else other than attempt to stop her?

If you are arguing that there is no other rational or moral decision than killing sakura, though, I think that my orignal point, that HF inserts ambiguity into this assumption, stands more readily than ever.

[Anonymous No.]

10

[Anonymous No.]

Someone on /tg/ once likened it to Zombies.

She is a zombie, you might want be able to come up with a cure, but if things turns for the worse the virus could spread.

Do you kill her, to ensure the virus most certainly doesn't spread?
Or do you give it your best to make sure it doesn't, all while trying to come up with a cure?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886513
>>7886512
>>7886526
That's not what I was talking about. I realize that their priorities would be different and that Shirou from UBW might not begin to play numbers, but this is irrelevant.

I'm saying that there's literally nothing (but Rin) stopping him from becoming a CG and becoming just like Archer. While he denies Archer's fate because it's not his ideal, like it or not, Archer is still living UBW Shirou's ideal. In killing people, he's still saving the world multiple times over, so it becomes and endless cycle of chasing the ideal.

>>7886574
>For my part, I don't readily accept, as many people seem to, that it's always an unambiguously morally correct decision to sacrifice one person for the good of many.
Except it's not a sacrifice in any sense of the word.

[Anonymous No.]

Someone on /tg/ once likened it to Zombies.

She is a zombie, you might be able to come up with a cure, but if things turns for the worse the virus could spread.

Do you kill her, to ensure the virus most certainly doesn't spread?
Or do you give it your best to make sure it doesn't, all while trying to come up with a cure?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886616
>>7886617
Does Sakura kill anyone consciously other than Shinji (and even that was near-subliminal)?

[Anonymous No.]

8/10
Heaven's Feel is a masterpiece.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886645
>Archer is still living UBW Shirou's ideal
I don't really think so actually.
Look at the image provided in >>7886431
Shirou did say that he wouldn't end up as Archer, and all while he might just be saying that due to being more naive and or full of himself than Archer, he also said that he would take what Archer had said to heart, and learn from him.
And yes, he does have Rin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886650
Zouken. Mostly is crushing a worm that would kill her.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886616
>If, to watch over, calm down, reason with and help the dog is an option, then shooting it in the head would very well be a sacrifice.
Confirmation bias. You see this solution because of how the stars aligned in HF that resulted in a one in a million chance of Shirou's blind plan working out. Normally, this won't be clear or even known at all; going into every situation assuming there's always a 'better' answer is stupid. Stop providing false dichotomies.

>Basically, you want to straight out kill the (actually really really nice) beast that happens to be on a rampage due to a shard stuck under his foot.
Or rather, it involves a girl who has harboured hatred for the world and the shard simply releases the inner desire to kill and maim and torture and commit genocide in the name of evulz.
There's no known way to remove the shard, or at least to get to it in this case.

>She is indeed innocent and never wanted to hurt anyone, not aware even of what she was doing.
This is undeniably wrong for multiple reasons and /a/ has had this discussion more times than I care to remember in the past few months. I'll just say you're wrong.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886645
UBW Shirou will most likely recognize death as the end of his journey and leave it at that. There is Rin, and Shirou will know to get around being betrayed and all that nonsense.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886650
Kotomine, Zouken (although they don't quite die when killed) and True Assassin. Other than that, no.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886650
>Does Sakura kill anyone consciously other than Shinji (and even that was near-subliminal)?
Not really no. She didn't kill anyone conciously at all, until she became blackned/tainted/dark Sakura, but at that stage it basically had the same effects as a "super crazy drug", so alwhile concious at this point, you could really question her sanity. She didn't want to be like that.

Even real people in real life gets different sentences in a court of law under these circuimstances.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886658
You earlier claimed that Shirou would try to use everything at his disposal to save everyone anyways, with the only difference in him realizing that he might fail and so he won't play the numbers game like Archer did.
I'm pointing out how this is irrational and simply incorrect, seeing as if he doesn't play the numbers game, he'll inevitably become broken from failing numerous times. This will eventually lead him to making a contract to get MORE POWER to save everyone, something that he couldn't do by himself.

>He has Rin
Yes and?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886645
No, I think refusing to play the numbers game is a very significant departure from this ideal, as numerous people have outlined. UBW shirou is not a proto-archer, and it seems from the text that even Archer realizes how different the two of them are. I think pretty much that entire confrontation between the two, and the fact that Archer decides not to fucking kill Shirou, makes it fairly clear that he's going down a different path.


>Except it's not a sacrifice in any sense of the word.
This argument is not as self-evident as you think it is, explain if you want to discuss it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886574
Nasu is definitely pushing the save Sakura choice as the right one.

Anyways the only reason you consider this as some sort of ambiguous situation is because you don't see the other side of the problem.
There can't be no empathy for the victims of Sakura simply because there is nothing about them in the game itself.
So in the end it's a choice between a character you actually know and "numbers"

>>7886617
At that time there was seemingly no way to save her
Shirou knew she would kill innocent people

>>7886616
Except there is nothing ambiguous about killing an animal on rampage no matter what the reason of that rampage.

And I never wrote she was doing it willfully.
But it's not a question of being conscious or not, that would be like saying that someone drunk or on drugs who is responsible for an accident that killed people is "innocent".
Even if Sakura wasn't the way she was by her own will, she was still a danger to a great deal of people.

What if someone you know and care about planned on killing a lot people and you knew it. And that person was drugged against its will and that's why they acted that way?
What would you do? Try to reason him even though it would be useless?
Turn a blind eye to all the people dying?

There is only one choice and that's to stop that person, you would call the cops or try to get some help, any other choice and you are most likely schizoid or completely evil.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886673
>Even real people in real life gets different sentences in a court of law under these circuimstances.

You mean pleading insanity?
You do realize that rarely actually works and you have to go through intense examinations to begin to qualify for it?
Also, the Shadow doesn't introduce insanity, it releases your inhibitions and makes you more evil. A plot point of HF was Kotomine telling Dark Sakura that she was the same as normal Sakura.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886676
>Yes and?
Always nice, isn't it? She is lovely.
But yes, she is a third party, and all while she may have a long term effect on Shirou's outlook on the world, that is not something we can know, and it is basically unrelated to the discussion at hand.

I wasn't the one who brought her up.
It was only a response to >>7886645 "there's literally nothing (but Rin)"

Also
>You earlier claimed
I didn't claim anything earlier. You must mistake me for some other anon.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886647
It's a perfect comparison.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886678
The first part of your post does nothing to address my points. I don't recall ever saying the two ideals are the same, just that Archer is also pursuing the beauty of it simply in his actions even if he can never reach it due to killing everyone.
Irrelevant.

>This argument is not as self-evident as you think it is, explain if you want to discuss it.
You have multiple posts here explaining it. Refer to them, I won't be parroting arguments for your inability to read.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886684
>Kotomine telling Dark Sakura that she was the same as normal Sakura.
Yes, evilized and unleashing 12 years of continued worm rape and traumas. It was weird she just didn't destroy the whole world at once.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886660
>This is undeniably wrong for multiple reasons and /a/ has had this discussion more times than I care to remember in the past few months. I'll just say you're wrong.

You know why? Because it's debatable. And it's debatable because you are not as right as you think you are. You know that hating the world is not the same as acting on the impulse, and Sakura only acted on it because of the shard. By this logic everyone on /jp/ should be executed. They probably should anyway, but the point is that it would be impossible to find someone who wouldn't be corrupted by Angra Mainyu.

Your personal conception of morality may leave no room for compromise, but this issue is highly debatable as your own statement proves.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886691
So you're posting... without any meaning to your posts.
Ok.

>>7886703
>It was weird she just didn't destroy the whole world at once.
Give her time, she's not all powerful like Arc.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886660
>Confirmation bias
Seeing as lots of the things that made letting Sakura live dangerous weren't revealed until after the choice (the second part of your post is all about Dark Sakura, who doesn't even appear until the second last day or so), this is irrelevant.

>/a/
Oh, that explains things.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886707
>for your inability to read.
Not him, but honestly, other than you I don't see any who argue that it's not a sacrifice. Unless someone in this chain of replies isn't you.

But you know, other than that I only see people arguing that it is a sacrifice, and people arguing that it is a necessary sacrifice, and people arguing that it is a sacrifice that shouldn't or couldn't be made.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886713
Your entire argument can be summed up with:

>Someone has crazy/evil thoughts
>They keep them in check
>X destroys their inhibitions, and they begin to kill, murder, and plot genocide
>They are not responsible because X is an external factor
If only real life worked this way.

>You know that hating the world is not the same as acting on the impulse
No, but you're implying this begs no consequences.

>By this logic everyone on /jp/ should be executed.
I can't recall the last time I wanted to kill everyone in the city for fun or my best friends because I hate them. Please don't project, your mental stability has no bearing on this discussion.

>but the point is that it would be impossible to find someone who wouldn't be corrupted by Angra Mainyu.
And?

>but this issue is highly debatable as your own statement proves.
It really isn't, at least not in most civilized courts.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886735
Perhaps you are right.
I take the definition of sacrifice in this case to be on the side of 'idealistic morality', but in the broadest definition of the term, you are correct.

>>7886725
I'm talking about the entire scenario up to him stabbing Sakura, not in intangibles of earlier days. Stop mistaking everyone disagreeing with you as one person.

>Oh, that explains things.
That you're prejudiced and judge someone's arguments based on which parts of the internet they frequent? Good to know, I'll remind myself not to take you seriously.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886707
I think you're assuming that the people you were referring to in the post I quoted were all the same. They weren't.

But to address your point, before you got all ad hominem, you're saying that Archer is pursuing it for the beauty of it? I don't see that in the text. You're saying that their ideals are different, but then you're saying that Rin is the only thing keeping him from becoming a counter guardian? I'm sorry, but I'm honestly not following this.

I'm also not fucking with you, I literally have no idea what you mean about letting people die to save more people not being a sacrifice. I think that's a definition that works on a lot of levels.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886680
>Even if Sakura wasn't the way she was by her own will, she was still a danger to a great deal of people.
But you know, killing her isn't necessarily the only option.

No one knew exactly how people died.
It shouldn't just be
A: Kill the dog
and
B: Not kill the dog (and ignore it while letting it go on a rampage!)

There are also various attempts at trying to prevent as much as possible.
I don't really know, make sure people get out of the dogs way. Retrain the dog. Successfully calm the dog down. Make the dog catch the attention of something else. Etc.
You made it sound like there were only two possible actions.

They didn't know much, but Shirou certainly believed that if Sakura was saved, everyone would be saved.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886774
Honestly, I have no idea who is who in this argument anymore and I can't keep up either.

I was originally responding to a certain point of contention, but it seems as if that person is gone anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886781
>But you know, killing her isn't necessarily the only option.

It was the only option at that time
As far as I know Shirou can't see the future.
Or maybe he has some meta knowledge that everything will go his way because he is in a shonen style story?

At that time and during most of the route it was either A or B

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886781
>I don't really know, make sure people get out of the dogs way.
How?

>Retrain the dog.
How?

>Successfully calm the dog down.
How?

>Make the dog catch the attention of something else.
How?

>Etc.
I'm talking about Sakura, in which nothing you state is possible in this situation. If you're going to defend your point, at least provide examples so that they don't ring hollow.

>They didn't know much, but Shirou certainly believed that if Sakura was saved, everyone would be saved.
And Shirou was also the one who said that it was essentially a suicide mission and that saving Sakura is nearly impossible, but he only continued because of his love for her/it's the right thing to do.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886781
>But you know, killing her isn't necessarily the only option.
Except it is.

You've failed to list anything else that Shirou could've done, unless you're referring to your dog examples, which don't even apply here anyways.

Once again, confirmation bias since there was no real alternative at the time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886745
>If only real life worked this way.
It does. Have you ever heard of people being "pardoned due to insanity?"
Even in more gruesome crimes people can go for insanity and lessen the punishment.

Also, you should remember to differ between law, justice and morals. More so than often they are at uneaven terms with eachother.
Heck, the sole reason as to why "insanity" even matters in court is basically becausse the person might have been arguably "morally innocent". Otherwise the law cares less for the mind of a criminal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886822
>It does. Have you ever heard of people being "pardoned due to insanity?"
If you've read my post, you'd realize why this doesn't apply here.

>Even in more gruesome crimes people can go for insanity and lessen the punishment.
Ok, now I'm 100% sure you didn't read my post.

>Also, you should remember to differ between law, justice and morals.
You're the person that brought up law, not me. You should heed your own advice.

Well whatever, time for bed. Your argument is beginning to go in tangents anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886822
>>7886684

[Anonymous No.]

>If you were to rate(1-10) fate/stay night
>246 posts and 28 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

Fucking seriously?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886745
>I can't recall the last time I wanted to kill everyone in the city for fun or my best friends because I hate them. Childish ad hominem omitted.

This is not the same as having resentment towards the world. At all. The point is that Angra Mainyu magnfies this. What started out as a general resentment towards Rin turns into torturing her, but let's not forget how the actual sane sakura addresses the situation:

Sakura is jealous of Rin for an unimaginable number of quite justifiable reasons, and how does she respond? By calling her Nee-san and reestablishing their relationship.

It's hard to argue that Sakura isn't doing a really good job of living a good life on her own and managing the staggering feat of forgiving and reconnecting. Angra mainyu washes all this aside and replaces it with amplified hatred.

Now, its seems that if you do accept that anyone tainted by angra mainyu would begin to destroy the world, we're kind of at an impasse. I believe that this was here to show the darkness and destructive desires that lurk within all humanity—the ugly side that Kotomine points out. You seem to be taking it as a literal indictment of her that you can use in court. I disagree, I think the revelation here is not "sakura is actually evil" but that "humans are actually evil, and must accept and deal with that side of them," which I believe Sakura does really well before she's corrupted.

[Anonymous No.]

Rampant sakurahater shows up in every FSN thread and declares himself the winner every time, so it's probably not worth it to argue.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886812
>Except it is.
Not it is not. It is even proven by how he didn't do it in the end of the story. So it wasn't the "only option".
But I bet you meant it was the "only option that - - -"

But no matter the case
>You've failed to list anything else that Shirou could've done
HF True/Normal are examples. Sakura was saved, and others were saved from even more deaths. But yes, people did die. In fact, people died even before they realized what might have been going on.

You know, he could find the real cause of the problem, and find out how to stop it.
He could calm Sakura down and ease her heart and bet it would have an affect (he did this and it did have an affect, shit just happened.)
He could fight the shadow whenever it actually acted.
He could go for the source, Zouken etc.
Ending Heavens Feel is also a possibility.

There were options, the only thing one can do is attack the probability of those options.
Actually to be honest. All while I didn't think that I would take on such an argument, this guy >>7886647 really did make an interesting comparison, for mulltiple reasons.

To begin with, one couldn't know for certain, that killing her would for certain stop the killings. It was just plausible.
Likewise, killing the zombie could ver well end a possible zombie outbreak, but for all we know the virus could spread by air and possess a new host killing others elsewhere.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886859
You should go back to /a/, you obviously lack the intelligence to have a proper argument.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886848
The secret to a good /jp/ thread is to completely ignore whatever is written in the OP.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886745
>they begin to kill, murder
Except this never happened (unless you feel sorry for Shinji and Zouken). Also, Sakura told Shirou and Rin that they should escape and let her sacrifice herself to take out Angra Mainyu. Doesn't sound like a genocide plan to me. In short, there is nothing she should be held responsible for either way.
>No, but you're implying this begs no consequences.
It doesn't, unless you're for thoughtcrime.
>I'll remind myself not to take you seriously.
It's not like you can be taken seriously with how you try to push the blame on an innocent and all.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886869
Ah I see that he didn't got to bed after all, and isn't that a funny argument to make for someone who was just talking about having this discussion on /a/?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886871
Worth noting, aside from the obvious near-subliminal kill of shinji that happened while he was trying to rape her, is that she never killed Zouken; he survived to be put to rest by Illya at the very end.

Not that anyone feels too bad for fucking Zouken though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886861

It was stated several times that saving Sakura was a seemingly impossible task. It was stated repetitively.

That he did it in the end was a miracle but you normally don't and shouldn't count on miracles.

AT THAT TIME and during most of the route there was absolutely no alternative, it was either stop Sakura or turn your eyes away.
Again you are just using your knowledge of the whole route rather than looking at the situation.

[Anonymous No.]

Fate: 6
UBW: 8
Heaven's Shit: 3


Oh god I really hated Sakura. I liked Saber the most, though her route wasn't as interesting as Heaven's Feel. The only thing about the third route I liked was dat wormpire.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886886
A true hero aims for miracles and gets them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886886
>It was stated several times that saving Sakura was a seemingly impossible task. It was stated repetitively.
It was stated that her life, was seemingly impossible to save. Not because of her actions or outside circuimstances or anything, but because she had a freaking magical tumor in controls of an immortal mad man.

There wasn't much that directly said that one couldn't save her mind, and have her live in peace the time she had left.
If anything, they didn't know enough about her condition other than it being deadly, and connected to Zouken, to really be able to accurately make claims on to whether there were another option.
They just didn't know of any, and people were dying.

It wasn't as much "or turn your eyes away" as you might make it seem to have been.
Rather it was more in line of "desperately try to find a way to prevent everything while attempting to comfort her, who suffers."
It is a bet, a bet on the unknown. Not a bet on the disproven. But a bet he felt had to have an answer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886886
>That he did it in the end was a miracle but you normally don't and shouldn't count on miracles.

This was pretty much Shirou's determination and and Rin's ingenuity that made this possible, I don't see how it was a "miracle."

It was stated as an impossibility? So was Shirou fighting and killing fucking Gilgamesh—FSN is full of impossible shit that the heroes accomplish anyway. Having other characters state that it's impossible as an abstract possibility is not something that can be relied upon as evidence that it's actually impossible.

Also, I think several of the options that the previous poster suggested were all options that Shirou knew of at the time.

[Anonymous No.]

HF should have had a short scene seen from the POV of one of the victim.
That would have showed you what "ambiguous" is about.

The whole dilemma isn't about whether it's possible to save Sakura or not.
It's about letting her kill hundreds people

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886948
That's not the ambiguity anyone's been talking about bro.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7886948
>It's about letting her kill hundreds people
An awfully tacked way of putting it. He certainly didn't let anyone die. From his perspective, anyone who died were people who died that he had failed to save in time.

Also, someone made a good point bringing up how one couldn't even be entirely certain that the killings would stop. Zouken could possibly have taken another puppet.

[Anonymous No.]

I love Rin, and I find HF to be all kinds of depressing, and thus doesn't value the route all that high.
But I always end up speaking for Sakura in these threads.

I like to believe that if a similair scenario were to happen after UBW, Shirou would take a similair approach as in HF to try to save Rin.

[Anonymous No.]

5/10
It's okay
Nothing amazing
Nothing terrible
Just an okay read
Only complaint is that the supporting cast is actually way more interesting than the actual main hero and heroines.
I guess I should get out of /jp/ huh

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887028
Yes Rin, be a good sister already, god you suck at it.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7887039
The supporting cast is the reason to play it. Assassin, Lancer, Kotomine, Gilgamesh, Rider, etc. Shirou is more interesting than the heroines, but that's hardly a point in his favor given how boring Saber, Rin, and Sakura can be.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887035
She did watch over her. And she did always love her.
In a world where the Matou's weren't complete fucknuts, they could have grown up to be the heads of their respective revered mage families, and have great relations later on.

Shit was just far worse than one could have imagined.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887028
That's a good point rinbro; it could have just as easily been Rin in Sakura's place.

I think that ties into the point of Angra Mainyu as a literary device (not a complicated form of evidence to be used against Sakura in a court of law). It's all the sins of the world, not of a single person, and that person could as well have been Rin, or anyone, really. Ultimately, they're fighting against a side of humanity itself, and I think that it's important to acknowledge that there is darkness that lurks in everyone, not just bad people. I think that Nasu doesn't really deal with that issue in a very sophisticated way, though he does point towards it.

To tie this back to the actual topic of the thread, while Nasu is not a fantastic writer, he did a good job of integrating some interesting things to think about along with a series with some pretty fun fight scenes. I call a game like that good. It's slow at some points and unsophisticated at other, but it manages to do all the things I like to see in a story at least.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887091
She should have realised somethig was wrong when Sakura spent her whole school and mid school looking soulless.
It's not programming a video, Rin.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887080
That's...fairly accurate sadly. FSN is very plot driven, though, so I think it's more that Nasu didn't do a good job of integrating an ergoe-style romance into an action story.

He did a damn better job than Demonbane though.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887103
Perhaps. But mage life is supposedly tough, even more so when you are supposed to become the head.

I am fairly certain that there was one line somewhere in HF where Rin uttered that she should have done something sooner.
She was really conflicted you know.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887136
>She was really conflicted you know.
And Sakura was getting raped daily and they basically turned her into a nympho, can't feel any pity because 'she was conflicted'.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887103
She didn't care. She was stuck in the magus mindset.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887155
It wasn't about pity. It she just didn't know that things was so bad. She did want to save her afterwards, but she didn't think that she could, and she cursed herself for it.

If you want to pity someone, go ahead and pity Sakura, but there is little need to paint Rin as some bad guy and or the worst sister ever.
She loved her sister.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7887215
NO SORRY SINCE RIN ISN'T OMNISCIENT SHE'S HUGE BITCH.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

It needs to lose at least two points for nautical sex and no Ilya route.

[Anonymous No.]

I will always, personally, love this work. If anything it took cerrtain elements longer than what most writers dare.

[Anonymous No.]

5/10

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

I missed a nice long in-depth Fate thread and now I feel terribly sad.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7892823
Yes, yes you did.
Type Moon still seems to be one of the things /jp/ can really discuss. Backpedalling be damned, but these topics tend to be lengthy.

People claim Type Moon devolves into power level threads, but I almost always sees it devolve into discussions of morals and the personas of the characters, like say Archer, Iliya etc etc.
Or the meta-mechanics of the magical forces of the world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7892971
The discussion in this thread was mostly about whether Nasu failed or not in his portrayal of HF and Ilya, it wasn't about the "moral" or "personas of the characters". Most of the FSN threads are like this

Flawed works will always get more discussions than "perfect" works, especially when they have a lot of fans who try to bury the holes, it's normal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7894460
They tend to devolve into shit like whether or not "mind of steel" is morally more heroic, and whether or not it is ideally closer to Shirou's and/or Archer's ideal.

Things like whatever Zouken was really up to, and how much Sakura can or cannot be held responsible for.

Iliya and how mentally deranged she is in correlation to just playing out by the war's/ritual's rules.

Or even things like whether or not Gilgamesh is really "Chaotic Good" as his alignment says.

Or inane things like the extents of the magic mechanics of Nasu's world.

[White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ No.]

>>7896576
Stuff that people enjoy talking about? How obscene!

We should discuss something important, like pooping in diapers, or whatever shitty anime screencap thread is currently going. Hey, there's a roleplaying thread on the first page. You should be all over that one!

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896589
>How obscene!
I have nothing against those topics. In >>7892971 I merely claimed that it isn't as much powerlevels as it tends to be this.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896589
Back to /b/ please.

>>7886851
>This is not the same as having resentment towards the world. At all. The point is that Angra Mainyu magnfies this.
>Bahblahblahbah
Anyways, the fact is that she is held accountable. Angry Manjew didn't make her do any of these things solely by itself, it did so by magnifying her feelings; thus, it is arguable that she is accountable and indeed, it is gray. Kotomine made it a point to say that while Sakura was influenced by the grail, in the end, she was still her consciously and had to accept her actions and consequences, and Kotomine never lies. Saying that just because murderer is not in his or her normal state of mind is instantly insane and is absolved of murder is asinine.

>>7886861
>HF True/Normal are examples.
I'm beating this horse to death right now, but you keep forcing my hand. Like I said earlier, CONFIRMATION BIAS. Look up the term, just do it. If you still insist on making fallacious arguments, I won't dignify your future posts with a reply.
HF Normal/True required obscene amounts of luck and situational manipulation in order to attain and normally, there are about a million ways to fail; see any bad end in HF. You want to play the numbers game? In the Nasuverse, it stands to reason that because of parallel planes and the amount of bad ends, far more end terribly than well and if we ignore extrapolation, there's still numerous bad ends where saving Sakura was simply impossible. This relegates the accomplishments achieved in these endings to a miracle, or a stroke of luck where the stars all aligned perfectly.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896755
>You know, he could find the real cause of the problem, and find out how to stop it.
Yes, HF True/Norm.

>He could calm Sakura down and ease her heart and bet it would have an affect (he did this and it did have an affect, shit just happened.)
WIth an equal, if not larger chance of failing anyways.

>He could fight the shadow whenever it actually acted.
HF made sure to show why Rin and Shirou couldn't fight the Shadow, stop being retarded.

>He could go for the source, Zouken etc.
A lot of good that did Shirou the first time and in bad ends.

>Likewise, killing the zombie could ver well end a possible zombie outbreak,
Bad analogy. Sakura isn't a corruption that spreads to other people, only to Servants, which there was a limited number of. Killing her opens the way to the grail and destroying it solves everything. Even without destroying the grail, Angry Manjew can't act without a host and we all know how convoluted it is to get one. Simply killing her would have stopped everything and as Mind of Steel showed, the only remaining threat was Kotomine and Rin after Sakura was killed: it spared the lives of everyone in the city. Piss poor analogy.

What you don't seem to understand if that you're rationalizing losing lives here, HUMAN lives. What if the animal you mentioned is on a rampage and can kill the entirety of Japan, or at least lead to that? What if killing it was a surefire way to stop it while trying to contain/calm it was a one in a million chance like Shirou said it was with Sakura? Would you really put everyone at risk just to save it when you don't even know how? If you would, then I applaud you for so easily disregarding the burden of people's lives on your shoulder. You must not have many worries, I envy you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896762
>You know, he could find the real cause of the problem, and find out how to stop it.
Yes, HF True/Norm.

>He could calm Sakura down and ease her heart and bet it would have an affect (he did this and it did have an affect, shit just happened.)
WIth an equal, if not larger chance of failing anyways.

>He could fight the shadow whenever it actually acted.
HF made sure to show why Rin and Shirou couldn't fight the Shadow, stop being retarded.

>He could go for the source, Zouken etc.
A lot of good that did Shirou the first time and in bad ends.

>Likewise, killing the zombie could ver well end a possible zombie outbreak,
Bad analogy. Sakura isn't a corruption that spreads to other people, only to Servants, which there was a limited number of. Killing her opens the way to the grail and destroying it solves everything. Even without destroying the grail, Angry Manjew can't act without a host and we all know how convoluted it is to get one. Simply killing her would have stopped everything and as Mind of Steel showed, the only remaining threat was Kotomine and Rin after Sakura was killed: it spared the lives of everyone in the city. Piss poor analogy.

What you don't seem to understand if that you're rationalizing losing lives here, HUMAN lives. What if the animal you mentioned is on a rampage and can kill the entirety of Japan, or at least lead to that? What if killing it was a surefire way to stop it while trying to contain/calm it was a one in a million chance like Shirou said it was with Sakura? Would you really put everyone at risk just to save it when you don't even know how? If you would, then I applaud you for so easily disregarding the burden of people's lives on your shoulder. You must not have many worries, I envy you.

Ugh, I'm tired, off to bed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896765
Woops,

>>7886920
>There wasn't much that directly said that one couldn't save her mind, and have her live in peace the time she had left.
Actually, the way Shirou and Rin went about saving pretty much voids your claim. They knew of NOTHING left that could work sort of killing her and the only alternative was to remove Angra Manjew completely. Shirou being Shirou, went for the latter option and through a sequence of extreme luck and determination, was able to stab her. There's no in-between for Shirou was already contemplating that and found nothing; anything you say is pure speculation and shouldn't be relied upon.
>They just didn't know of any, and people were dying.
Which is why there was no alternative open to them, which proves my point.

Let me ask you, what if there was no ending where Sakura was saved and everyone either died or she was killed? Would you still claim it was possible to calm her and save her?
If you do, you believe in miracles. You're both a hero and retard.
If you don't, congrats, you realized you were using confirmation bias.

I can't speak for your morals, but I would NEVER gamble with hundreds of thousands of lives at an infinitesimally small chance to save everyone, not even for my loved ones. Hell, I wouldn't even put everything on the OLG either.

>>7886994
>He certainly didn't let anyone die.
Murder through inaction. But yes, I agree with you.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896769
There we go,

>>7886922
>I don't see how it was a "miracle."
When you realize that only 2 out of the 15 bad ends were 'good', and that those two also had large elements of luck not foreseen, it's a miracle.

>Having other characters state that it's impossible as an abstract possibility is not something that can be relied upon as evidence that it's actually impossible.
I'm gambling for one billion dollars. The chance of winning is 0.000001% including me fixing the game. I have to go all in or nothing. If I walk away, everyone but me dies.
Replace the one billion dollars with a billion human lives.
Replace my assets with my life and those around me.
Add the caveat that if I kill the person running the lotto (who may or may not be innocent), everyone is saved.
Would you call it a miracle if I win?
Would you call me stupid if I decide to kill the person after looking and failing to find a third option?
Inb4 some douchebag says there was no luck involved in HF and that it was all due to Shirou and Rin's determination and ingenuity respectively.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896772

First, to address the Pragmatic Argument (it's right to kill Sakura because it is the most likely positive outcome):
>When you realize that only 2 out of the 15 bad ends were 'good', and that those two also had large elements of luck not foreseen, it's a miracle.

You're using knowledge of the outcomes to hedge your bets in the same way you were accusing other people of doing, which is also confirmation bias.

2/15 ? What about Fate and UBW bad ends? How low was the chance of getting a good end there? Are you going to say that to fight Gil and Kotomine was a poor option?

I think you're applying real world logic to a story that's about unrealistic heroic action. This isn't science fiction or a story heavy invested in realism, it's about triumph in the face of all odds.

Second, to address the argument that it is right to kill Sakura because she is evil:

My thing about Sakura's guilt is this, and I'll leave it at this: Angra Mainyu Magnifies the bad sides of Sakura so that it destroys the good, which before her possession far overwhelmed her feelings towards her sister.

In the face of this possession, there is no human that would be unable to resist, although the form their sins would be expressed in would be unique to their character.

Therefore, Angra Mainyu is not a indictment of Sakura, but an indictment of all humanity. To say "you, Sakura, are guilty" is to say all of humanity is guilty, WHICH THEY ARE. Angra Mainyu is, of course, All the Sins of the World.

This is why so many people are willing to forgive Sakura. She spent her whole life fighting against sins that weren't her fault, and overcame the overwhelming temptation to indulge in them until an outside force made that no longer an option. Sakura represents both the power of humans to fight against the evil in themselves and what happens when they can't.

Basically, the one without sin is the one who gets to throw the stone at Sakura.

[Anonymous No.]

OH MY GOOOOOOOD IT'S SO TL;DR IT'S EATING HALF THE FRONT PAGE! THE THREAD THAT WALKS LIKE A MAN!

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896807
>You're using knowledge of the outcomes to hedge your bets in the same way you were accusing other people of doing, which is also confirmation bias.
Not really, I only do so because YOU do so, which is why I bring up the numbers game. Throughout the routes, there's heavy indication that it's a hopeless situation and indeed, it stays that way until HF True and even then, the odds only change because of luck and chance combined with effort.

>How low was the chance of getting a good end there?
Please don't strawman, or I won't be inclined to respond further since this has no bearing on HF or Sakura.

>I think you're applying real world logic to a story that's about unrealistic heroic action. This isn't science fiction or a story heavy invested in realism, it's about triumph in the face of all odds.
So confirmation bias. You KNOW that it will end well because it's THAT type of story. So yeah, stop using that, I'm getting tired.

>Second, to address the argument that it is right to kill Sakura because she is evil:
Nope, never said it was right, just that it is equally as right reforming her. The difference is that one has a very high chance of success while the other is nil.

And since you still believe that, I don't feel inclined to read the rest of your post since it's all going to be germane to the point anyways.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896877
Oh, and before I leave this thread forever because of strawman politicals, fallacies, and rationalization,

>To say "you, Sakura, are guilty" is to say all of humanity is guilty, WHICH THEY ARE. Angra Mainyu is, of course, All the Sins of the World.
Refer back to what I said about Kotomine.

>This is why so many people are willing to forgive Sakura. She spent her whole life fighting against sins that weren't her fault, and overcame the overwhelming temptation to indulge in them until an outside force made that no longer an option. Sakura represents both the power of humans to fight against the evil in themselves and what happens when they can't.
War heroes, philanthropists, and do gooders must all be forgiven if they commit mass murder and/or genocide. Even more so if they were influenced or not in a normal state of mind.

That says a lot about your beliefs, so I don't think it's worth it to continue this discussion even if you didn't strawman every other sentence.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896877
Oh, and before I leave this thread forever because of strawman politicals, fallacies, and rationalization,

>To say "you, Sakura, are guilty" is to say all of humanity is guilty, WHICH THEY ARE. Angra Mainyu is, of course, All the Sins of the World.
Refer back to what I said about Kotomine.

>This is why so many people are willing to forgive Sakura. She spent her whole life fighting against sins that weren't her fault, and overcame the overwhelming temptation to indulge in them until an outside force made that no longer an option. Sakura represents both the power of humans to fight against the evil in themselves and what happens when they can't.
War heroes, philanthropists, and do gooders must all be forgiven if they commit mass murder and/or genocide. Even more so if they were influenced or not in a normal state of mind.

That says a lot about your beliefs, so I don't think it's worth it to continue this discussion even if you didn't strawman every other sentence since we are clearly at an impasse.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896755
>>7896762
>but you keep forcing my hand. Like I said earlier, CONFIRMATION BIAS. Look up the term, just do it.
I am fully aware of what that is. But really, if anything I would like to throw it your way.

You claimed >>7886812
>You've failed to list anything else that Shirou could've done
I mentioned HF True/Normal are examples of proof, that it was theoretically possible. Not that they knew of it, or that it was plausible.

I mentioned
"You know, he could find the real cause of the problem, and find out how to stop it."
You responded with
>Yes, HF True/Norm.
I just want to point out that they didn't know any of this. The answers that could potentially be found could be something else entirely, and theoretically more plausible (or even more impossible).

I mentioned
"He could calm Sakura down and ease her heart and bet it would have an affect (he did this and it did have an affect, shit just happened.)"
You responded with
>WIth an equal, if not larger chance of failing anyways.
Once again, they couldn't really know how successful it could be. It was just a hunch, a bet. Belief that Sakura could still have an effect on the situation. A form of trust, and lots of stubborn hope. But cue point, it could have worked, it could have been plausible, it could have been impossible. They didn't know, but they could bet on it.

[Anonymous No.]

I mentioned
"He could fight the shadow whenever it actually acted."
You responded with
>HF made sure to show why Rin and Shirou couldn't fight the Shadow, stop being retarded.
Once again, they didn't know much about the shadow and/or the threat at all. They had linked it to Zouken, and they believed Sakura to be a source. They weren't even sure of that to be perfectly honest. Shirou had with a near 6th sense thing sensed Sakura's presence in what was basically their only encounter with the thing, and it was a vague encounter. Due to this hunch he felt somewhat more sure of this than the others, but even then they couldn't be sure it would set things straight for good and not simply temporarily.
All they knew was the thing that was killing people were incredibly dangerous and that it was linked to Zouken somehow, and that Zouken was a madman of a powerful mage. No need to throw personal attacks, none is retarded just because they didn't know enough at that point of the story.

I mentioned
"Likewise, killing the zombie could ver well end a possible zombie outbreak"
You responded with
>Bad analogy. Sakura isn't a corruption that spreads to other people
Once again, they barely knew whatever her condition was. They only knew it was connected to Zouken. Given how fickle the common perception of Zouken was he could have done whatever.

[Anonymous No.]

I mean, who here really have problems with confirmation bias? I merely point out options that could have been seen as theoretically plausible from their given perspective and standpoint at that given time of the story. Some of these options even turned out to be plausible in varying degrees, wheras others, granted, turned out to be rather impossible or even counter productive. Cue point, they didn't know enough.
And whatever I understand about human lives here, is irrelevant anyway as it is a moot point. Rather, it is about Shirou's perspective of human lives.
And while it certainly is horrible/unacceptable to have humans die like that, who is to say that it is right to kill an innocent person who doesn't want to die? I am not even going to into this argument, but it certainly isn't as one sided of an argument as one might think. It is a philosophical issue/dillemma in itself, and that's an entirely different issue.
What's relevant at hand is Shirou's perspective on these manners, and we all should know that he finds both cases unacceptable.

[Anonymous No.]

0/10
Autism: The VN

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896769
>They knew of NOTHING left that could work sort of killing her and the only alternative was to remove Angra Manjew completely.
They knew of nothing that they knew would work. Shirou still had hunches, and things to bet on. He did manage to calm and remedy Sakura even, to some extent, which seemed to work in a positive direction, until Matou&Co fucked things up further, together with other third party complications such as Rin and Iliya until things really went out of hand.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896909
>>7896914
>>7896915
Skimmed through your posts and everything you said was rationalizing.

My central point was that the things they could've done and the 'hunches' etc. are not enough to convince a normal person to take the chances to save Sakura, which is the original point. You then strawman and rationalize it as it's possible and the issue is with the ethics, which was made clear by several people that it's all irrelevant. Now, you start back pedaling over to Shirou's beliefs, claiming that society and our views on the subject is irrelevant when in fact, using Shirou, someone who is broken and has pursuits no sane man would follow, to support the position of having an uneasy choice is appalling.

tl;dr more strawman, more rationalizing, and more completely irrelevant shit. I'm honest, I'm going to stop myself from responding physically, this retardation/trolling/constant strawman is giving me an ulcer.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896944
>My central point was that the things they could've done and the 'hunches' etc. are not enough to convince a normal person to take the chances to save Sakura, which is the original point.
I never denied this. And this isn't exactly about what would be called a "normal" person.
>You then strawman and rationalize it as it's possible and the issue is with the ethics
I didn't strawman anything. After having proceeded from what a "normal" person would do, I ventured into the matter from Shirou's perspective.
And several people have already mentioned how he differs, numerous times throughout the thread.

You claiming it devolves into a strawman arguments I can go with, if you don't accept the previous matters to be resolved, it can be interpreted as strawman given how the arguments tackles other issues.
Rationalizing however? That's just not what's happening. These things can't be argued from an outsider perspective. That way you might as well quote Rin or someone and call it a day. This is about Shirou's actions, so naturally, it needs to be done from Shirou's perspective. That's no rationalizing.
The rationalizing you see, are just points promoting the idea that Shirou's stand isn't objectively "wrong". And there are valid reasons for his actions, both morally and from his own personal stand point. There are valid reasons for the opposite as well, hence why those ends exist.
But you can't simply claim that the other option is "more" closer to his ideal, and then throw off responses as irrelevant rationalizing when people point out that his ideal doesn't have to be seen that way at all, and that the other option doesn't even have to be seen as morally worse.

This isn't about us, it isn't even about others. It is about Shirou, his ideal, his morals, and his perspective and given choice and choices.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896974
If this wasn't clear.
I have never argued about what is morally right or wrong.
I have been arguing about what Shirou might see as morally right or wrong, and on what basis his stands in the middle of HF are most likely based on. And how they correlate to his ideal and morals.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7896979
>I have been arguing about what Shirou might see as morally right or wrong,
Thanks for back pedaling and wasting an hour of my life that I'll never get back.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7897819
Then just what have you been arguing for whatever the reason then?

I throw that line right back at you. I never argued anything else, but all of a sudden people started to quote my posts. All I have done is explain myself, and I never left my original standpoint and argument.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7897819
You have being arguing with multiple people on multiple topics. If you can't distinguish between them it is your own fault.

Also, you cannot just list terms like "confirmation bias" or "rationalization" and expect that to stand on its own. If you know enough about essay writing to know those terms, you also know that they do not stand on their own, and that you actually have to pull them apart yourself.