/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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OP Mon Jul 11 09:58:42 2011 No.7604427 [Reply] [Original]

This guy.
This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy. This guy.

Seriously. He is why I despise the TYPE-MOON fanbase. He's a fucking Gary-Stu. Because he's going to die in one year or two (HURR dramatic), he kills everything without problems, he destroys Dead Apostles Ancestors and make them look like shit. Yes because he's the KILLER. And also, he hates everything non-human, but he protects Arcueid Brunestud. Logic here, everyone.

This is not Shiki. I hated Shiki, but he wasn't so annoying than this guy. At least Shiki couldn't control its urges when he was seeing the lines. Shikiller hide his eyes and of course he doesn't need them to see. It's nearly as stupid as Code Gayass R2.

And all TM fans are "oh Shikiller so cool so cool HURR". I don't understand why. With him, Vampire Dante, Mech Hisui and Neko Arc, Tsukihime is really fucked.

At least he cannot kill Servants. Discuss.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:00:42 2011 No.7604437 I have no clue who the fuck this is and I've played through all the tsukihime routes, kagetsu tohya, and most of the melty bloods. I don't even give a shit and neither should you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:00:42 2011 No.7604435 >>>/beast's lair/

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:01:43 2011 No.7604439 Scrooge McDuck can kill this guy. Discuss.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Jul 11 10:04:43 2011 No.7604450 A good thread you shall never make, anally distraught, reflexively anti-typemoon autist-kun.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:05:13 2011 No.7604455 Nobody even likes Satsujinki. The eye bandage thing is cool but he seems to have lost Shiki's awesome personality.

>>	OP Mon Jul 11 10:07:43 2011 No.7604460 >>7604450 Go back playing Mahoyo if you don't have any arguments, TMfag. oh wait

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:09:44 2011 No.7604465 i didn't know illidan was a type moon character????

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Jul 11 10:11:44 2011 No.7604475 >>7604460 Forever autistic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:11:44 2011 No.7604476 File: 477 KB, 848x480, 1310393499096.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7604455 >Shiki >personality

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:12:14 2011 No.7604479 >Vampire Dante At least he's better than Neo-Dante. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfQpZksclfs

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:14:13 2011 No.7604485 >>7604476 He has personality in Melty Blood. Somewhat more cheerful than his old Tsukihime self, he refuses to take much seriously unless it deals with vampires.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:20:16 2011 No.7604502 File: 1.05 MB, 850x680, 1310394045609.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] op, don't try talking shit of Necoarc.

>>	ｱﾉﾝｵﾌﾊﾞﾝｺｸ Mon Jul 11 10:21:45 2011 No.7604503 >>7604465 He's blind, not deaf.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Jul 11 10:23:17 2011 No.7604505 >>7604485 He has a personality all the time. OP just hasn't encountered it, because he knows everything he knows from the TM wiki.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:30:48 2011 No.7604515 >>7604505 having the same opinion of white ren for once feels a little weird.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Jul 11 10:31:48 2011 No.7604518 >>7604515 That feeling will fade away, and be replaced by love.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:31:48 2011 No.7604520 >>7604503 he's meat, not loaf.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:53:52 2011 No.7604572 Turkeyhandle sucks, who cares.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 10:58:52 2011 No.7604584 >>7604427 >At least he cannot kill Servants. Discuss. Actually, we don't know if he can't. And if Nasu deemed it proper, he could actually make Shiki have the power to kill Servants.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 11:11:23 2011 No.7604610 OP seems frustrated.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 11:12:23 2011 No.7604614 Why do all of you fagets hate R2 anyway

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 11:13:22 2011 No.7604617 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWlK24U_g68

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 11:18:53 2011 No.7604637 >>7604584 Ryougi Shiki, on the other hand, could kill servants. Sever the wall between reality and the Throne of Heroes, then stab the offending party.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 11:27:25 2011 No.7604672

>>7604637
No, Ryougi has no need to sever anything. Servants are concepts first and foremost and they have finite bodies while summoned due to constant need for prana and that they'll most likely be destroyed within a week or so. Servants =/= info in the Throne of Heroes.

Ryougi can see their deaths fairly easily with her eyes.
Don't know how upgraded Tohno's eyes will be by the time he becomes Satsujinki though.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:01:58 2011 No.7604778

>>7604672
Not him, but I have always doubted this.
Like with Archer explaining
"They are 'nothing' to start with. It is meaningless to kill something not part of the real world."

My line of reasoning here is the whole deal Type Moon got with concepts and conceptual ideas.
When Gilgamesh is summoned, the world doesn't view Gilgamesh as a magical construct with the shape and form of Gilgamesh.
It recognizes Gilgamesh as Gilgamesh, but also finds an error. Gilgamesh died so and so many years before BC, Gilgamesh is already dead! And because of this error the world tries its best to correct this mistake, hence the massive mana upkeep of sustaining a Servant. The only thing keeping them from being corrected is the constant stream of energy.

Any particular reason as to why the Shikis' Eyes would fare any better than the mechanisms of the world, and recognize them as something other than something already dead? Is one to believe that they are smarter, and thus have more control in how they can interpret things with their eyes? Or something like that, really?

At best, I could see them severing the contract feeding them with energy, like Rule Breaker.
But I can't believe it would be anywhere near easy for them to "kill" that of which is no longer part of the real world, nor even alive for that matter. An error the world fails correct or interpret in a more "suitable" manner.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:14:30 2011 No.7604822

Nasu has already stated that seeing the lines for Servants would be incredibly difficult; the instant-kill spots are impossible.

Ryougi does not have godly abilities to kill absolutely anything. She was just talking shit. She's certainly stronger than Tohno, but she can't alter reality.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:25:33 2011 No.7604845

>>7604822
No. Nasu only said that about Shiki's MEoDP, and that's more because it's not as strong as Ryougi's MEoDP. Both are connected to the origin of all things. For them to not have the power to see the death of all things is foolish.

Saying instant-kill spots on Servants is impossible when that is not said anywhere at all is foolhardy. It's all about the strength of the eyes that an MEoDP user would have. Even in alternate universe canon made by Nasu, Ryougi did manage to mess up other Servants.

>>7604778
Shiki already killed dead people before in Tsukihime. Being dead or not alive doesn't save you from MEoDP. If you have form in the world, you exist. As long as you exist in the world, you will have a definite end. If you have a definite end, you will have lines and dots on you since they are supposed to represent the very weakpoints of all existence. Even Types have lines and dots of such weakness as long as you sever the power connection that gives them their energy (their planets).

Servants gain their power from mere humans in comparison, so they would show weakpoints. It's natural. They will die in a few weeks and require massive prana to function properly. Without masters, they disappear.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:27:02 2011 No.7604850 >>7604845 To reiterate Servants =/= information on the Throne of Heroes that cannot be erased.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:33:34 2011 No.7604855

>>7604778
>Any particular reason as to why the Shikis' Eyes would fare any better than the mechanisms of the world, and recognize them as something other than something already dead? Is one to believe that they are smarter, and thus have more control in how they can interpret things with their eyes? Or something like that, really?
Well, it's been said already I think, but the Shikis' eyes (rather, their brain) are a part of the Origin now. And since everything in all realities are part of the Origin, then it would be of higher rank than something that the World alone is trying to suppress. Because the World itself is but a minuscule part of the Origin.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:35:05 2011 No.7604862 Would a bullet kill Shiki?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:35:36 2011 No.7604861 >>7604845 >Even in alternate universe canon made by Nasu, Ryougi did manage to mess up other Servants. Fate/Extra Servants are NOT Fate/Stay Night Servants. Moon Cell Automata data construct =/= soul-copy summoned from the Throne of Heroes itself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:36:06 2011 No.7604865 >>7604861 They still follow the same rules. Also, Archer is there.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:37:06 2011 No.7604868 Could Shiki kill a Servant in Avalon while having sex with Shirou?

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:38:06 2011 No.7604869

>>7604855

The Origin is not what kills things, though.

What kills things is the World crushing the error of "dead thing being alive".

Shiki just makes it a dead thing, and >>7604778's line of logic says they're "already dead things the world is trying to crush".

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:40:36 2011 No.7604876

>>7604865

No-Name is not EMIYA the Counter Guardian, he is the person how the person who would have been "Emiya Shirou" lived in the Fate/Extra world.

Since the 4th Holy Grail War went differently in the Fate/Extra world, we don't even know if he met Kiritsugu.

Remember, the Moon Cell Automata does not contact the Throne of Heroes in any way, it just creates mimics of what it has recorded on Earth (and it scans Earth thousands of times every nanosecond and has been for the past four billions years).

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:42:06 2011 No.7604883

>>7604869
The Origin is what allows them to see the weaknesses of everything. If you exist, you will have a weakness. Especially for imperfect constructs like Servants.

And again, being dead or alive has no connection to MEoDP ending your existence. MEoDP is not killing. MEoDP is erasing. You are being erased because you do not exist anymore. Being dead is no immunity against MEoDP. Being an inanimate object with no life is no immunity against MEoDP. We've seen this countless times in Tsukihime. If you exist, you will have weaknesses. If you have weaknesses, lines and dots exist on you. If they do, MEoDP can tell its owner where they are provided his eye's strength is at a sufficient level.

Ryougi's is at a sufficient level. Tohno, not yet. Satsujinki, no idea.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:50:08 2011 No.7604902 >Satsujinki, no idea. If Nasu gives Shiki eyes that can understand everything with his brain not exploding like Ryougi's eyes are, that's just making a broken character even more overpowered.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:50:39 2011 No.7604903 I'd never think there were people that debated I-pulled-shit-outta-my-ass-and-clarified-contradictions-later Nasuverse that seriously

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:51:08 2011 No.7604909 >>7604903 I know, right? In Nasuverse, everything is basically possible, nothing is really impossible. You can't really discount the possibility of one thing happening and another not happening.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:52:39 2011 No.7604912 >>7604903 VELKOMMEN TO /jp/

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 12:58:12 2011 No.7604926 >>7604912 Derp

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 13:12:40 2011 No.7604959

>>7604845
>For them to not have the power to see the death of all things is foolish.
Tohno cuts the end of all things.
Ryougi cuts the origin of all things.

Both are connected to the origin, and both essentially kills the object.
Ryougi however, can't kill something without a recorded origin, and Tohno can't kill something without a recorded end.

Meaning, that if there were to exist something that were to never end, Tohno wouldn't be able to kill it, though Ryougi should, given it has an origin.
Likewise, if there were to exist something that was never made, and always existed, Ryougi shouldn't be able to cut it, although Tohno should given it has an end.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 13:22:11 2011 No.7604982

Ryougi's eyes are more powerful than Tohno's because she is connected directly to the Void actually. She has the ability to mess with cause and effect to rewrite reality to anything she wants, while Tohno can only cut things that have a perceived death. I don't know why people keep getting this wrong, it's like no one has watched the epilogue of KnK where Ryougi explains this directly.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 13:30:12 2011 No.7605007

>>7604883
>Especially for imperfect constructs like Servants.
The constructs might be imperfect, but the funny thing about the Servants are that the concepts aren't.

Archer's Rho Aias is technically "inferior" to the original, but sense the concept is still there in all its might, in practicality, it is perfect.

If they look at them, they should see them for what they are, conceptually perfect anomalies that "doesn't exist".
I think it is a little bit out of our hands to assume that they can see this, and then shift their focus/vision to center and focus on the vessel itself and supposed flaws of it.

To be honest, even if they could, I am still not convinced said vessels have such imperfections.
The vessels are made out of pure energy, ether.
Now, he might be able to cut ether, but even that should be somewhat tough I believe, but yes, ether should be able to be cut.
But here is the point. Ether is ether for as long as it is ether and recognized as such.
I can't be convinced that it can still as easily be recognized as simple ether after they have taken the form of a new concept and shape.
Following this line of reasoning he should be able to kill "immortal thing X" including Arc under the moon, simply by killing whatever tangilible matter they are made out of, ignoring how "immortal" the construct might be as a whole. I somehow doubt that's how it works.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 13:38:15 2011 No.7605024 >>7604982 >where Ryougi explains this directly. Ryougi says lots of shit. None of them fully understands the workings of the mystic eyes.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 13:43:46 2011 No.7605035

>>7604959
>Ryougi however, can't kill something without a recorded origin, and Tohno can't kill something without a recorded end.
But that's not even the point here. Servants have ends.

>>7605007
Arcueid is the Planet itself in certain terms. That is why you have to kill her connections to Gaia in order for her lines to show. Even she has death and an end.

Servants are not the Planet. They're smaller than one and are human-based. They have so many weaknesses just by existing in the world. They also have ends which are much shorter than Arcueid has.

Whatever materials Servants are made of, it doesn't matter to the MEoDP. They are still just a tiny bit of the Origin. They have relatively very short lifespans. Their entire existence is fragile as glass.

They aren't perfect at all. And again, they exist, because they are there. What they are is dead being brought back to life. But in terms of the Origin, they exist. And because they exist, they can be erased by the MEoDP, provided that the owners of the eye has their MEoDP at a sufficient level to do so.

And again, being dead doesn't matter. MEoDP is not killing you. It's erasing you from ever existing in this world, this universe, this reality.

Again, it is very likely that Ryougi can see their deaths without too much trouble. Tohno will have problems as his eyes aren't far too advanced yet. Satsujinki is a complete mystery. We have no idea if his eyes are even better than Ryougi's.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 13:45:15 2011 No.7605038 >>7605024 That Ryougi managed to heal Kokutou without even touching him. That Ryougi is connected to the Origin. Bitch knows what's what.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 13:45:46 2011 No.7605040 >>7605024 I see no reason to take her words as blatant lies especially when she has these powers first hand.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 13:55:18 2011 No.7605057 >>7605035 >Servants have ends. Rather, Servants have -ended-.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:00:48 2011 No.7605075

>>7605035
>They are still just a tiny bit of the Origin
Everything is. Except possibly a god.
Saying that everything stem from the origin, and that they can kill everything connected to the origin is just the same as saying that nothing can be immortal and that they can in fact kill anything no matter the case or form. Even killing Avalon or whatever.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:02:49 2011 No.7605081

>>7605057
No. They have ends. Servants are NOT the Heroic Spirits that are in the Throne of Heroes. They are NOT the original bodies they once were. They are NOT ended. They have a definite start upon summoning and a definite end when they die in the HGW.

I really don't like it when people confuse Servants with the information in the Throne of Heroes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:03:18 2011 No.7605084 >>7605075 In Nasuverse, gods are elementals worshipped by men. They gain the divinity trait as a result. Yes, they are still part of the Origin.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:08:50 2011 No.7605095 [DELETED]

>>7605075
>people using Origin as another term for the Root
No. The ROOT is what you guys are talking about. Everything is a part of The Root.
The Origin of everyone is also part of The Root.
The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception is connected to The Root and not only The Origin. The only way to even obtain the MEoDP is to be part of Akasha by almost dying and coming back to life.

So get your terms straight. Origin =/= Root. What the Shikis are connected to is The Root, not The Origin.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:09:49 2011 No.7605098

>people using Origin as another term for the Root
No. The ROOT is what you guys are talking about. Everything is a part of The Root.
The Origin of everyone is also part of The Root.
The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception is connected to The Root and not only The Origin. The only way to even obtain the MEoDP is to be part of Akasha by almost dying and coming back to life.

So get your terms straight. Origin =/= Root. What the Shikis are connected to is The Root, not The Origin.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:09:51 2011 No.7605100

>>7605084
Knew people were to make such a comment.
But I obviously meant an omnipotent god, the alpha and omega.
Something outside of time/space with direct influence and omnipotent power and presence over everything.

Not something like the Norse/Greek pantheon etc.
Whether or not something like this exist is the Nasuverse is one thing, but it was just a theoretical scenario. If such a thing exists in the Nasuverse, it could possibly have made the origin. I won't put it beyond him to do such a thing, even if it isn't stated.
But yes, nothing confirmed, theoretical scenario.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:12:50 2011 No.7605107 >>7605095 Sorry about that. I messed up my definitions. Then just replace every instance of Origin here in this thread with Root.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:13:20 2011 No.7605111 ...Why do people act like it's cool to hate Type-MOON now?

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:13:20 2011 No.7605110

>>7605100

>But I obviously meant an omnipotent god, the alpha and omega.
>Something outside of time/space with direct influence and omnipotent power and presence over everything.

Nasu explicitly pointed out that that was a bluff on Shiki's part, such an existence would not have a concept of "death" and could not be killed by any method.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:15:20 2011 No.7605116 >>7605100 You can't use a theoretical argument with no basis in Nasuverse to support your theory. The Root/Akasha (ehem) is everything in Nasuverse. You might hate how almighty and powerful Akasha is, but that's just the way it is.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:17:21 2011 No.7605123

>>7605110
>such an existence
Such an existence in Nasuverse is called Akasha, The Root, the one thing Ryougi and Tohno are connected to that has power over everything.
Remember that gods in Nasuverse are merely elementals with divinity. In that respect, yes, even Ryougi can kill a god. So it's not really a bluff.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:21:23 2011 No.7605128 >>7605111 Hasn't made shit in 6 years. Discussions are rehashed ad nauseam.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:30:24 2011 No.7605160 >>7605111 Anything that is popular is hated on 4chan. The real truth of it is that Nasu's storytelling has some flaws but it's still very entertaining to a lot of people and should be considered top class VN work.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:32:53 2011 No.7605166

>>7605128
>Hasn't made shit in 6 years.
While that does suck, I can forgive it if the next original work they put out is good. It's better than rushing to release a new VN every half-year like Ryuukishi and ruining your project as a result.

>Discussions are rehashed ad nauseam.
Touhou is guilty of the same thing, and yet most people here like Touhou.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:35:53 2011 No.7605177 Touhou is mostly comedy so people don't tend to make it sound DEEP. Nasuverse stuff does attempt to do that but even TM makes fun of their own stuff pretty regularly. Fans do seem to forget their sense of humor though.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:37:55 2011 No.7605185

>>7605166
>I can forgive it if the next original work they put out is good
Problem is that it's never going to be put out.
And at least Touhou has some new stuffs released regularly.

For TM it's basically always the same old stuffs that are repeated again and again and again, most of the time about some obvious plot point that people missed because they have no reading comprehension.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:39:54 2011 No.7605194

But plot isn't important to Touhou, nor are STGs generally that different from one another.
Whether you think Nasu's plot is actually DEEP or just simple with the illusion of complexity due to infodump, you can't seriously think Touhou and TM stuff are attempting to do the same thing. Touhou characters as people discuss them are mostly fanon even.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:45:56 2011 No.7605210

>>7605185
Except when's the last time we had a discussion about 10 Desires or Fairy Wars? The only Touhou threads on the front page are 1.) WHICH KANAKO FUCK, 2.) WHICH BYAKUREN FUCK, and 3.) lol guiz i found this new meme flanfly that's so hilarious. I agree that T-M powerlevel threads are bad and filled with autism, but you're deluding yourselves if you think most of the Touhou threads we have are any better.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 14:48:57 2011 No.7605220 File: 156 KB, 425x600, 1310410113590.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Shizuru vs Shiki, who win?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 15:17:03 2011 No.7605302 >>7605116 >You can't use a theoretical argument with no basis in Nasuverse to support your theory. Did you even read the post? That was no supporting the argument, that was a theoretical exception. I knew I shouldn't have brought it up.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 15:24:07 2011 No.7605335 >>7605302 >You can't use a theoretical argument Though, I might say this. If Ryougi can use a theoretical argument to speak out of her ass, then I believe I can make a theoretical argument to claim she's wrong.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 16:14:41 2011 No.7605513

>>7605302
That exception serves as an argument because you want to make The Root subservient to something else in Nasuverse, when Nasu already basically says that The Root is everything. If I allow your exception, that destroys Nasu's Root being the everything of all realities.

>>7605335
It's not a fucking theoretical argument from her. Because having the power to kill Nasuverse gods =/= being able to carry it out. I can't even say it's all bluster from Void Ryougi, seeing as she healed Kokutou without even touching the guy.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Mon Jul 11 16:56:51 2011 No.7605616 File: 1.08 MB, 1924x1443, 19956261.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] It doesn't matter who is stronger. Kohaku will beat them, regardless.

Anonymous Mon Jul 11 17:18:58 2011 No.7605695

>That exception serves as an argument because you want to make The Root subservient to something else in Nasuverse
No. I basically tried to make a point. Then, I thought, oh but there might be exceptions, but I couldn't think of any. Then, I on a whim thought of Ryougi's houghty speech of being able to kill god, so I included it on a whim as a "if anything, it could possibly be this." but it is practically irrelevant.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 18:28:06 2011 No.7605975 >>7605616 Kohaku is the best. I love you, Kohaku!

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 18:32:37 2011 No.7605991 >>7605975 Check the ears. That's Magical Amber.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 11 19:20:45 2011 No.7606165 >>7605991 I know that isn't Kohaku in the picture. I'm saying that Kohaku is the best, regardless of who is in that picture.

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