Why is he so smooth, perfect and handsome?

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Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:05:15 2011 No.7595712 [Reply] [Original]

Why is he so smooth, perfect and handsome?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:07:45 2011 No.7595724 Because he's not real.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:10:45 2011 No.7595736 File: 88 KB, 512x512, 1310231419881.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:11:46 2011 No.7595740 File: 7 KB, 225x225, 1310231494745.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:14:16 2011 No.7595753 >>7595712 So, I asked in the last thread but nobody answered: if they have have with each other is it masturbation, like between Archer and Shirou, or something?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:14:46 2011 No.7595751 So he can be a surrogate for the ugly and unpopular target audiance

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:14:46 2011 No.7595752 File: 292 KB, 250x368, 1310231677662.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Actually, a better question OP is: "What if Tsukihime was a girl?" pic related, it's Tsukihime.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Sat Jul 9 13:15:16 2011 No.7595757 >>7595712 Did you know that Shirou is more popular than both Nanaya and Tohno? http://scarletmoon.dasaku.net/?p=155

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:15:16 2011 No.7595758 >>7595753 have sex*

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:15:45 2011 No.7595754 File: 158 KB, 450x464, 1310231735848.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7595724 thread/

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:16:47 2011 No.7595760 >>7595753 selfcest, it exists.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:22:48 2011 No.7595773 >>7595757 Why is Shirou more popular than Shiki? I can understand Archer is popular, but Shirou is kinda boring, lame character and childish character who wants to be a superhero.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:23:18 2011 No.7595778 >>7595757 >2009 That's why I say that this franchise is dying.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:24:18 2011 No.7595779 >>7595773 And shiki is just a serial rapist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:26:49 2011 No.7595787 File: 257 KB, 508x714, 1310232385997.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7595757 Did you know that Sacchin is more popular than both of them?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:28:48 2011 No.7595799 >>7595773 Probably because Shirou's a DEEP character. I mean really, Shiki didn't have much a presence in Tsukihime unless he was wielding his eyes of sex death around. It was all about dat harem.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:33:49 2011 No.7595814 >>7595787 Who? And why did you post a blank image?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:43:20 2011 No.7595840

>>7595773
It's because Shirou works hard for everything he gets.
Shiki doesn't work hard and still his body is made of material that makes him beyond human. That, and because of Shirou being chauvinistic (Ayako would be more ladylike now due to molestation, Taiga eat your food more like a woman, Rin is pretty womanly, Saber you are a girl be more like one) makes him the perfect Japanese dude in an eroge.

It doesn't help that Shiki is not driven to do anything because he's the brother of the rich Tohno heiress as well as being laid back due to the fact that he could die anytime due to his brain just killing him.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:44:50 2011 No.7595843 Shirou is more popular because Fate is more popular, considering Nasu whores that franchise out at any given opportunity.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:46:20 2011 No.7595845 File: 290 KB, 804x604, 1310233564900.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7595840 You forgot one.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:49:50 2011 No.7595852 File: 60 KB, 640x480, 1310233768108.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Reason I like Tsukihime more than fate is because of MINDFUCK.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:54:19 2011 No.7595865 File: 618 KB, 1838x999, 1310234043518.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:55:49 2011 No.7595869 Tohno didn't even have a personality in Tsukihime; he was literally just the generic smart and snarky self-insert protagonist in every harem.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:56:20 2011 No.7595871 File: 86 KB, 640x480, 1310234175951.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Why? Because he's the goddamn Batman

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 13:59:51 2011 No.7595882

Shirou is more popular because he's the quintessential shounen protagonist stuck into an h-game. Years after the otaku grew up, they tried to find a semblance of what made them feel young, and that could only be found in the hotblooded shounen-shi that they once read and loved as kids. He wants to be something much better than he is.

In comparison, Shiki's the disinterested asshole normally serious character type that wants to live a normal life because precisely he isn't normal. The otaku cannot enjoy a character who does not wish to become much more than his potential.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:00:51 2011 No.7595886 File: 5 KB, 112x123, 1310234442749.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Because he's so smooth. Always.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:07:22 2011 No.7595910

>>7595757
Type-Moon Ace says things a little differently:

Female charas:
1. Saber
2. Arc
3. Tohsaka Rin
4. Ryogi Shiki
5. Karen Ortensia
6. Tohno Akiha
7. Kohaku
8. Ilya
9. Matou Sakura
10. Rider

Male charas:
1. Archer
2. Nanaya Shiki
3. Lancer
4. Tohno Shiki
5. Emiya Shirou
6. Kotomine Kirei
7. Gilgamesh
8. Kokutou Mikiya
9. Emiya Kiritsugu
10. Iskandar

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:10:22 2011 No.7595922 >>7595910 dun dun dun The question is, who's better? A website or Type-Moon Ace?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:10:53 2011 No.7595924 >>7595882 I like shiki more, I just hated Shirous character to0 begin with. Also shouldn't they like shiki more? In my view Shirou was mr normalfag,alpha dog.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:12:23 2011 No.7595928 >>7595910 So it's a question of official vs non-official?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:16:53 2011 No.7595944 >>7595928 TM Ace is official. Also that one 2009 poll was only limited to 9000 people, shortly after the KnK movies. Only reason why Ryougi came in first place.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:17:53 2011 No.7595947 >>7595922 Going to have to go with the one that is an actual magazine strictly for Type-Moon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:17:53 2011 No.7595948 >>7595922 The even better question is Can Shiki kill Shirou ?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:19:24 2011 No.7595957

>>7595924
I don't know. Shiki is also pretty normalfag and alpha dog as well. If we think about it, he's a lot more normalfag because he doesn't train any and alpha because he's got a really huge friend network with. And then there's the physical talent factor of Shiki. Shiki is also taller than Shirou which might be another reason for them liking Shirou more.

>>7595910
That is kind of curious.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:19:54 2011 No.7595959 >>7595948 Nasu said so, so he obviously can.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 14:21:54 2011 No.7595966 >>7595814 That's Hanyuu, summerfriend, not what's her name.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:21:54 2011 No.7595968 >>7595944 >9000 people Well, that's a pretty large sample size. Shiki's more popular than I thought.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:22:24 2011 No.7595972 >>7595959 Nasu doesn't know shit about his own universe. Retcon festival.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:27:24 2011 No.7596004 >>7595753 It's narcissism, point-blank. Archer is a separate being born from a what if. Nanaya is an imagined nonexistent ego in Shiki's mind. And given that it's Shiki's greatest fear for himself, it's nightmare rape at that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:28:55 2011 No.7596010 >>7595910 How many times does TM Ace make popularity polls like this one? Still, those are actually pretty high rankings for Tsukihime characters.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:31:24 2011 No.7596018 >>7595968 On the other hand the other TM polls aren't limited to such a small number of TM fans. Also, it's unlikely that Ryougi will maintain her position, since the hype of the KnK movies has long since died.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:32:56 2011 No.7596022 >>7596010 Arcueid has always been at the top with Saber.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:39:28 2011 No.7596046

>>7596018
9000 is a pretty big number. Even in manga in Japan with gigantic readerbase, getting a total of 9000 respondents is already more than amazing, especially since Japan is probably the only other country left in the world that always has popularity rankings for fictional characters on a regular basis. Other polls might not even reach 9000 total because a lot of people won't know where to find it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:41:29 2011 No.7596051

>Why is Shirou more popular than Shiki?

Both
>Opinionated
>Rude (in the Japanese sense of completely avoiding subtlety)
>Idealistic
>Familiar with death
>die hards for their wifey-to-be (pick your route, in b4 slut arguments)
>not overly social

Shiki
>Laid back
>Self-fulfilling (can and will think of self before others)
>Not upstanding (not a deliquent, but definitely not a try-hard. Standardized milquetoast quality)
>Kind of a dreamer
>Somewhat refined (At least knows of kendo & tea ceremony, like Japanese sweets over sugary shit, arguable heir to the Tohno family)
>A born trouble-maker (especially with an accomplice. See also: SHIKI and graffitti all over the mansion, fights in his youth, mentioned instance of certain banned activities in his school as a result of him and Inui, the school being banned from Kyoto after breaking a statue, constantly skipping out on dinner at Tohno house).

Shirou
>Hardworking (A+ number one quality that Elevens love)
>Complains of others flaws as a way to tell them to fix it.
>Not ambitious, but goal-oriented (wanting to be a superhero, meaning helping any/everyone in need)
>domesticated
>Frigging machine (wake up, breakfast, walk underclassman to school, study hard, after-school job, come home and cook for guardian/underclassman if they haven't made dinner already, train his circuits like a beast. He never turns down anyone asking for a favor unless it's outright malicious).
>High morals (incorporated even into his lifestyle as a magic user)

Shirou's an upstanding citizen while Shiki's a mellow delinquent.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:43:28 2011 No.7596058

>>7596051
>SHIKI and graffitti all over the mansion, fights in his youth, mentioned instance of certain banned activities in his school as a result of him and Inui, the school being banned from Kyoto after breaking a statue
LOL

Sounds like Shiki lived a charmed life even with half his lifeforce being drained from him.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:43:59 2011 No.7596060 >>7595959 Disregarding the fact that his brain will explode of course.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:43:59 2011 No.7596061

>>7595957
Yeah but shiki seemed just more realistic for some reason and more fun of a character to read as, you didn't know what he would do next because his mind was complex,he wasn't based on one ideal, he didn't care for whats good or evil,he just went with the flow of what was happening to him, he was sort of true neutral. shirou on the other hand was nothing but a plain white knight character that you ALWAYS see you harems or shonen, that i hate so much.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:46:01 2011 No.7596068 >>7596060 Shirou's body is inherently human. All it takes is Shiki going 17 hits per second and it's basically over even if Shiki doesn't target the NPs. Shiki has this at the verge of death awakening instinct because of Nanaya survival urge.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:47:30 2011 No.7596073

>>7596061
>he was sort of true neutral
I've said it before and I'll say it again: he was neutral because he was made to be a self-insert. He didn't really have a personality aside from being a generic harem protagonist, so his wide range of actions were done so the player can insert themselves into him.

Many people hate Shirou simply because they can't relate to him. While he has a lot of depth and is a rounded character, his thought pattern is really unique and I'd go so far as to say insane, so it's only natural you like Shiki more, whom you can see yourself in.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:48:30 2011 No.7596075 >>7596068 The quote specifically says disregarding the fact that his brain will explode, which is why people speculate it's a tie if we take that into account.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:48:30 2011 No.7596076 >>7596061 But those heroes are usually confused and conflicted about the sort of crap that happens to them, Shirou is fucking Heronator 2000 so he's always clear on what he's going to do and will do it even if what he's going to do is fucking retarded.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:49:00 2011 No.7596084 >>7596061 I don't know. Not all harems have white knights. Actually, if we think about it, Shiki is an action/harem protagonist while Shirou is a shounen protagonist if we took the porn out of the equation and just looked at their base character types.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:50:59 2011 No.7596086

>>7596073
I just dont see it, Shirou didnt seemed complex at all, he was like a fucking robot programmed to be one thing, IAMAHEROGOODGUYLOL IAMAPERFECTBEINGWITHNOFEELINGS. Also Shiki didn't seem like a harem protag at all, he reminded me more of harry potter,who i like.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Sat Jul 9 14:51:00 2011 No.7596091 What does Nasu need to do to make Akiha Perfect?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:52:29 2011 No.7596094

>>7596075
But the thing is, Shiki doesn't have to target the NPs in a fight. If he does that, there's no reason for his brain to explode, or have you not read the Shiki destroying the concept of being poisoned in Far Side? If we just take into account Shiki cutting Shirou up, then obviously his brain doesn't overload. Shirou's just human after all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:53:00 2011 No.7596103 >>7596086 I completely agree with you, however, be sure read Heaven's Feel, you'll like it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:54:00 2011 No.7596109

>>7596073
>his thought pattern is really unique and I'd go so far as to say insane
We can basically say that about every other shonen based protagonist that trains and trains and trains just for the sake of being strong to save everyone. Which is basically the point of a shonen based protagonist. I don't really think it's unique IMO.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:54:29 2011 No.7596107

>>7596086
FATE:
>Bridge Scene with Saber
>Basement Scene with Kirei
>Tiger Dojo with Ilya and Taiga talking about Shirou being misguided

UBW:
>Archer's conversation with Shirou before meeting Caster
>Shirou's conversation with Rin after Ilya's death
>Shirou's fight with Archer

HF:
>All of HF

If you really think he's one dimensional or only having one thought in his head, you missed the entire point of the game.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:54:29 2011 No.7596108 >>7596103 I read heavens feel, yes he is better but not so much, hes still so robotish.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:55:01 2011 No.7596113 >>7596094 So you're saying Shiki can somehow avoid a gigantic wall of swords advancing towards him at incredible speeds that keeps regenerating constantly? Impressive bias.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:56:02 2011 No.7596119 >>7596107 In my eyes, his based personalty never changed, yeah his goals and morals changed, but not his personalty.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 14:59:31 2011 No.7596134

>>7596073
>He didn't really have a personality aside from being a generic harem protagonist, so his wide range of actions were done so the player can insert themselves into him.
Umm, no. Shiki had a personality. He had a history. The only part of him that was neutral was that he went with the flow a lot. He was carried by the waves, so to speak. But even in those waves, he swam a different stroke.

You'd have to have not played either Tsukihime, KT, or even the Melty Blood franchise to not understand how Shiki has his own personality.

Being laid back =/= not having a personality. Being a jackass jerk who picks fights at school =/= not having a personality. Being a guy who enjoys the present because he might die tomorrow =/= not having a personality.

I really hate it when you guys use this as an argument.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:00:01 2011 No.7596141

>>7596119
Character development doesn't mean a change in personality. If you're saying his goals and morals changed, then that's good character development that PROVES that he's not a generic shounen protagonist with only one goal in mind without reason. Cool contradiction.

Before I leave, let me say that seeing Shirou as a shounen protagonist is not wrong per say, because he's meant to be a deconstruction of one. If you look at his reasons for wanting to save people, how he adapts to his failures, and his past in general, you'd realize that was where the brilliance in his character lies: Shounen protagonists usually have a shallow reason for wanting to save people (IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!); Shirou goes deeper than this.

>he reminded me more of harry potter
I lol'd.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:01:00 2011 No.7596143 >>7596091 I think it was an accident. He meant for us to all be taken with Arc, but those who looked deeper found the truly perfect one hidden on the Far Side with the maids.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:02:01 2011 No.7596153

>>7596134
I'm talking about Tsukihime and how he didn't have a personality then, he was literally no different from any other eroge/hentai protagonist out there. His character only started developing once you hit KT and the MB games; saying he was a character before then is bullshit and you know it.

We've already been over this years ago and I'm not about to start arguing it again.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:02:01 2011 No.7596156

>>7596113
>Thanks to his heritage, he is capable of two unique skills developed by the Nanaya: Flash Sheath (閃鞘 Sensa?), the ability to attack extraordinarily quickly (ex: His trademark Seventeen Divisions move is likely a result of this ability), and Flash Run (閃走 Sensou?), the ability to essentially "teleport", or move so quickly that one loses sight of him in an instant.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:03:31 2011 No.7596163

>>7596113
He survived being attacked by multitudes of beasts attacking him after all with his flesh getting ripped off of him. If the fight was up close, it would be Shirou vs Gilgamesh, except Shirou would be in Gilgamesh's shoes.

And most fights happen in close range after all. Apart from that, if you even get Shiki in a dangerous situation, Nanaya instincts kick in because he wants to survive. That makes Shirou's job even harder. All this not counting Shiki cutting to pieces a rain of swords that Shirou can only make if he gets mana support from Rin.

If based on their own complete merits, Shirou can't even do that while Shiki can do what he can do on his own.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:07:33 2011 No.7596176

>>7596153
Huh? Then Shiki DOES have a personality. Almost all T-M fans won't just consider Tsukihime in determining Shiki's personality. And even then, in Tsukihime, the guy was pretty much a jackass jerkoff asshole who likes to tease people and enjoys life to the fullest because of death being that close to him.

He DOES have a personality.

Yes, it's not as explored as Shirou's, but Shiki basically had the same personality throughout the entire Tsukihime experience. Shirou has three different developments.

Shiki HAD character in Tsukihime. The fact that you can't even understand that is itself a stupid assessment.

Being a laid back jerk IS a personality.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:07:33 2011 No.7596177

>>7596109
I think you should probably step away from the conversation if you're going to keep using big, untrue brushes to make sweeping judgments.

Most action protagonists (cause you're sick if you think it's limited to the shounen-oriented books/shows/etc) are illogically set in a manner of "I want to save everyone!" There is seldom good rhyme or reason behind their motivations. Hell, there's seldom any backstory for it at all--shounen oriented titles take it a step worse in that they'll frequently abuse training montages disguised as character development.

Shirou's motivation is clear-cut and in your face. It's also pointed out in repeated instances why it's such a distorted, incorrect way of life, while simultaneously showing why it still works for him and isn't completely bad. Further, we have no training instances to put up with that aren't absolutely necessary to support both the story and his/other's characterization.

If he's a robot to you, that can't be helped (in fact, I'd recommend reading Fate/Zero if only because that's exactly a standing point Gen Urobuchi was trying to convey in writing). But broad statements supplemented as evidence are pretty useless.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:08:03 2011 No.7596188

>>7596156
I see nothing indicating how he can avoid a physical wall of swords.

>>7596163
>If the fight was up close, it would be Shirou vs Gilgamesh, except Shirou would be in Gilgamesh's shoes.
Except Shirou isn't nearly as stupid as Gilgamesh.

>And most fights happen in close range after all
Speculation on pre-fight conditions.

>All this not counting Shiki cutting to pieces a rain of swords
Hence the brain explosion.

>that Shirou can only make if he gets mana support from Rin.
Yes, this is the assumption. The only other thing that would work is Archer Arm Shirou, but it's pretty clear this isn't the situation.

I already pointed out that Nasu specifically said Shiki would win if we disregard the fact that his brain wouldn't get fried; why would he even say that if Shiki could win 100%? I'm done here, since nothing you say is new that we haven't talked about for years here and the entire TM community over at BL agrees.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:09:04 2011 No.7596192 >>7596176 >Being a laid back jerk IS a personality. Then the millions of MCs in eroge, hentai, and VNs from Japan all have personalities and are not one dimensional. Nice.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:09:04 2011 No.7596193

>>7596141
So you think hes just a DEEPER Shounen protagonist, alright whatever. I think thats just because its something you are reading then watching, you get more depth on a character, even if its somebody like Shirou. Shiki wasnt bound by morals,goal,etc, he did what his gut told him to do. thats what i like about him,he wasn't "generic" like a harem protag in him at all. also yeah i just get that harry potter vibe from him,and not because of the glasses.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:12:34 2011 No.7596206

>>7596177
Naruto wants to do his thing because everybody mistreated him when he was young and wanted to be great. Wanting people not to die is only the result of this.
Ichigo saw his mother die in front of his eyes and didn't want anymore people to die.
Luffy saw his hero die in front of his eyes and didn't want anymore people to die.
Negi saw his entire village get turned to ashes, his fellow villagers get petrified before his eyes and now he doesn't want anyone to get hurt because of him.
Even now, all these guys have raging complexes because of those haunting life-changing events. How Shirou is any different from these guys is just not there. He's NOT any different. He's exactly these guys.
The only difference is he has sex, they don't.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:13:04 2011 No.7596213

>>7596193
I really don't care if you think Shirou is a shounen protagonist, but you said specifically that he was pretty one dimensional and only had one goal without reason, like he was a robot.

Either you're incredibly ignorant, or you haven't played the VN, or you are trolling me good job 6/10.

I just find the Harry Potter thing funny, but I still don't consider him having a personality back then.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:16:04 2011 No.7596232

>>7596206
In all of those instances, the desire to save people isn't even touched or explored after they are brought up once.

In Shirou's case, his beginnings was much more complex and in the main story, the idea of being a hero and having those ideals were fleshed out, examined, beaten to the ground, and reconstructed; all in line with his character and showing great development.

Also, back to /a/ please.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:16:34 2011 No.7596226

>>7596213
No i played it, i agree more with this >>7596206, there is nothing different here that Shirou is not, hes the exact same thing but you are reading his mind and thoughts on it, because its more of a book. if naruto or any of those were a vn, it would be a deeper also.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:18:34 2011 No.7596238 >>7596226 >if naruto or any of those were a vn, it would be a deeper also. You're seriously saying Naruto, who's one of the most one dimension Marty Stus in history, has as much thought about his actions as Shirou? Well, I guess it can't be helped.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:19:05 2011 No.7596253

>>7595840
Shirou busts his ass to stomp as many niggas as he does.

Shiki is a fucking enemic frailboy who can still somehow kick ass, kill shit by cutting dots, and flip out like a fucking ninja despite his physical condition and weakness because "lol da bloodline does it"

Also, as other posters said, Shirou is just fleshed out more, personality-wise.

All I really get from Shiki is he really wants to fuck choiceheroineofplotpath and he uses rape as a threat when people don't let him do what he wants.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:19:36 2011 No.7596245 >>7596238 Im saying if naruto was a vn, yeah sure. its because you can have more depth in vn or book form.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:19:36 2011 No.7596246

>>7596188
>Except Shirou isn't nearly as stupid as Gilgamesh.
Against a human with a butter knife with zero prana presence? He would be less at guard against four-eyes than he would against other Servants.
>Speculation on pre-fight conditions.
Dude, you don't just go and shout out I'll kill you from over 8 meters away.
>Hence the brain explosion.
You're not reading my post correctly. All I said was that Shiki can kill Shirou even without having to try seeing the death of the NPs. And while he can't out-reaction time a bullet, Shiki does have the speed to basically make bullets miss because he's that fast, especially when under immediate threat of death.
>Yes, this is the assumption. The only other thing that would work is Archer Arm Shirou, but it's pretty clear this isn't the situation.
Dude, if you give Shirou allied support and all that jazz, then that's not a 1 on 1 fight anymore. He's depending on other people. That said, what if Ciel knew how to cast reinforcement magic on Shiki?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:21:37 2011 No.7596260

>>7596232
>only brought up once
How about NO? I read all these manga until I said, just fuck it. They keep bringing those things back up, especially with Negi's case.

You might say what Shirou has is great development, but that's only because you haven't read enough shounen manga or you dropped them because you said "I'm too old for this shit."

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:22:36 2011 No.7596265

>>7596253

>Shiki is a fucking enemic frailboy who can still somehow kick ass, kill shit by cutting dots, and flip out like a fucking ninja despite his physical condition and weakness because "lol da bloodline does it"

His body is still the same well-trained Nanaya body, his only physical limitation is the fact that he both lacks 50% of a standard human's life force, and his brain overtaxes itself understanding death.

His body otherwise is incredibly skilled and highly athletic, it is not just his blood.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:22:36 2011 No.7596266 >>7596246 >Against a human with a butter knife with zero prana presence? He would be less at guard against four-eyes Gilgamesh is more perceptive than you give him credit for, and mystic eyes aren't exactly "zero prana presence"

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:23:37 2011 No.7596267 >>7596188 >I see nothing indicating how he can avoid a physical wall of swords. Maybe dodge the swords since he has the ability to "teleport"?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:23:37 2011 No.7596269 >>7596153 You can't have played many nukige, sim games, or visual novels to be saying this.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:23:37 2011 No.7596270

>>7596246
See:
>>7596188
>I already pointed out that Nasu specifically said Shiki would win if we disregard the fact that his brain wouldn't get fried; why would he even say that if Shiki could win 100%? I'm done here, since nothing you say is new that we haven't talked about for years here and the entire TM community over at BL agrees.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:24:08 2011 No.7596277

>>7596253
Play Tsukihime. It seems you haven't. Shiki is not a frail boy. He's a high school delinquent. Even if he suffers from anemia, he is physically well-built and athletic as well as muscled, unlike Shirou (who was pretty beta with Shinji) he actually picks fights with other delinquents in school, and he has a sharp tongue and isn't afraid to use it.

Again, Shirou IS the more fleshed out of the two characters. That can't be denied. But your post reeks of "I didn't read Tsukihime, let's make anemia jokes".

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:24:37 2011 No.7596275

>>7596253
But shrious whole personalty,his mere existence, is nothing but the hugest cliche ever made. It doesn't matter is his personalty is "somehow" flesh out, hes nothing more than a robot who has no thought at all. Shiki was a fresh experience and something different, instead of your typical good guy super man protag, you had a bit more of a normal human who didn't see life as black and white.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:25:08 2011 No.7596282

>>7596260
>They keep bringing those things back up, especially with Negi's case.
So did I. I was referring to the fact that they don't examined and explored on Shirou's scale, that's as simple as it is.

>>7596245
I'm done talking to you.

>>7596267
>and Flash Run (閃走 Sensou?), the ability to essentially "teleport", or move so quickly that one loses sight of him in an instant.
>move so quickly that one loses sight of him in an instant.
It's like you didn't even read your own post. There's nothing indicating he can teleport THROUGH PHYSICAL OBJECTS.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:25:08 2011 No.7596283 I will stick to my impression that Shiki would be better at assassination wheras Shirou would be better at straight out battles/fights, even though both are somewhat decent at both.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:26:08 2011 No.7596288 > Having a who-would-win-in-a-fight argument I seriously hope you guys don't do this.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:26:37 2011 No.7596286 >>7596266 >and mystic eyes aren't exactly "zero prana presence" Nero wasn't able to sense it. Arcueid never sensed it. Ciel never sensed it. Akiha never sensed it. Roa never sensed it. It's basically a secret ability until he shows it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:26:37 2011 No.7596287 >>7596277 >unlike Shirou (who was pretty beta with Shinji) Shirou was a member of the Archery club, and bows are good workouts. Beyond that he had a part time job as a labor worker and was a practicing mechanic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:28:08 2011 No.7596299 >>7596282 Rain of swords does not mean wall of swords. Gilgamesh fight was a sequence of swords being thrown one after the other. There is space in between, they are like bullets. Then there's the not-infinite prana question.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:28:08 2011 No.7596306 >>7596287 That has nothing to do with being beta. Beta doesn't mean you're weak. Beta means you don't want conflict. And besides, Shiki never needed any training at all because he was a genetic superfreak.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:30:37 2011 No.7596311

>>7596299
It doesn't mean that they can't be projected closely together enough so that you can't move through them. Even if he can move that fast, it's not hard to project in a pattern that leaves no openings even if there are packed right beside each other. Other than that, I'm tired of talking about this so
>>7596270

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:30:37 2011 No.7596312

Are people forgetting how seeing/cutting the concept of death of Noble Phantasms most likely would hurt/boil Shiki's brains out?

now, ignoring how tough it is for Shirou to actually do sword rains/walls, why would you assume Shiki would be able to be fine?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:30:37 2011 No.7596313

>>7596266
>>7596287

Shiki's Mystic Eyes don't use prana and aren't really Mystic Eyes anyway. They're a psychic-energy based power called Pure Eyes, which is the real power of the Nanaya lineage.

Shiki's pure eyes are just mutants that are functionally identical to the mythical Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and so get the same label.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:30:37 2011 No.7596316

Shiki was no were near as alpha,mr normalfag as Shirou. shiki was more of a normal human being and cated like one, shriou while maybe being alittle more fleshed out, is just a stale character trait thats been done forever. Anybody could think of a character like Shirou, its done in marvel and dc comics all the time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:31:08 2011 No.7596317 >>7596282 He can simply dodge to the side or something.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:31:08 2011 No.7596320

>>7596277
>Shiki is not a frail boy. He's a high school delinquent. Even if he suffers from anemia, he is physically well-built and athletic as well as muscled

Multiple times Shiki gets light headed or weak from his condition and/or the Roa life-link shit.

then his inbred retard genes kick in and he goes all superhuman.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:31:08 2011 No.7596322

>>7596312

>Are people forgetting how seeing/cutting the concept of death of Noble Phantasms most likely would hurt/boil Shiki's brains out?

To be fair, they ARE just recreations made of prana. Recreations of an absurd level, but still. So we can't really judge either way.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:31:38 2011 No.7596318 >>7596316 acted*

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:32:38 2011 No.7596324

>>7596282
>So did I. I was referring to the fact that they don't examined and explored on Shirou's scale, that's as simple as it is.
You're just closing your entire mind here. They do explore it on Shirou's scale. They have over 30 volumes of character development for Negi alone, especially with regards to his past. Naruto's inferiority complex borne out of his being mistreated was fairly spread out especially in the early chapters before Sasuke went missing.

Yes, Shirou IS like other shounen protagonists. Read the mangas first. Dude, it's not rocket science.

You can say I have shitty taste for having shounen manga knowledge but damn, Shirou is just like those other guys.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:32:38 2011 No.7596325

>>7596143
He didn't expect anything. The fact that Arcueid is objectivelly perfect (physically at least(, has more to do with the plot than anything (since Arcueid isn't his favorite heroine). Whether you consider Akiha to be perfect or not is entirelly subjective.

Not that it matters, since Arc has always had more fans anyway.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:33:38 2011 No.7596330

>>7596206
>You're crazy if you think the archtype's limited to just shounen type stories.

Hikaru Shidou. Nanoha Takamachi. Kazuki Muto. Vash the Stampede. "Shinta" Kenshin Himura. Madoka Kaname. Rock/Megaman. Rockman X/Megaman X. Heero Yui. Quatre Rebaba Winner. Touma Kamijou. Akuto Sai.

This list goes on. And it still would only contain a small fraction of them being challenged/developed storywise in their wanting to save all the people urges. Your scale is far too narrow. And you're also confusing "tragic backstory" for "defining/justifying inhuman selflessness".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:33:38 2011 No.7596332 >>7596312 >Are people forgetting how seeing/cutting the concept of death of Noble Phantasms most likely would hurt/boil Shiki's brains out? They are just projections.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:33:38 2011 No.7596334

>>7596312
No, people are arguing how he can somehow dodge a rain of swords using his speed, which is absurd since the VN clearly shows they are spaced just far enough so that they don't hit each other, but present no openings to travel in.
I'm impressed though, in all the time I've been here, I've never heard of someone argue something so absurd and directly ignore Nasu's statement on the matter.
They must be fairly new to TM.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:34:08 2011 No.7596339

>>7596320
In a fight, when adrenaline rush gets going, Shiki never gets light-headed. These attacks only start happening after Shiki does his troublesome acts of trouble. Even then, none of that light-headedness ever actually meant Shiki was not physically superhuman, especially with the fact that not even training hard, Shiki's body was a fine tuned athletic body as Ciel noted when she ogled him naked in her curry ass room.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:36:39 2011 No.7596350

>>7596312
It's more like Nasu says he'd "win", so that's the word of law.

Despite liking Shiki far more than Shirou, I agree that this shit is not in Shiki's favor, and I feel like Nasu is just dripping with bias, or something, but he's the author.

Shiki just wants to have a peaceful life and accidentally seduce every woman in his immediate vicinity, and I'm sure Shirou isn't craving blood either, the whole argument is a little ridiculous.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:37:09 2011 No.7596363

Shiki is sort of like Arc, in that they are inherently extremely powerful with little work for it. Aside from the training in his past, his lineage and eyes make him extremely powerful. Same thing with Arc, if she went all out and stopped caring about her bloodlust, she'd destroy 99% of the characters in TM.
The fact that they are so powerful with relatively little justification or work is why some people hate them.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:37:39 2011 No.7596355

>>7596334
>shows they are spaced just far enough so that they don't hit each other, but present no openings to travel in.
>someone hasn't studied trajectory and physics before
Precisely because of those spaces, once they travel far enough, there will be opening wide enough for a man to run through them. Did you see Berserker's body after he got impaled a lot? He's a very huge man and there were wide swaths of his body not even hit by NPs.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:38:09 2011 No.7596368

>>7596334
People assume Shirou would just rain swords, which he almost never does.
The basic fight goes 'Shirou creates Replica, tries to slash you'.
Nine Lives Bladeworks and such will not happen here.
The chances of Shiki destorying teh first couple weapons and getting the one hit he needs are better than Shirou getting his hit on

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:39:40 2011 No.7596371 Couldn't Shiki just destroy Shirou's Reality Marble like he did with Nero's?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:39:40 2011 No.7596372 >>7596355 >and there were wide swaths of his body not even hit by NPs. Man, did you forget what Berserker's body even IS? God fucking Hand blocks lots a shit. This evidence is flawed.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:40:10 2011 No.7596377
File: 199 KB, 838x1200, 1310240445958.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7596260
Ichigo's trauma is brought up with the Fisher. And is prettymuch never talked on ever again. Afterwards, the theme message is CONSISTENTLY muddled between "I want to protect the people I care about" (which, btw, is NOT "I want to save everyone") and "I need to become stronger!". The reader who doesn't constantly reread the first twenty or so chapters of Bleach has every right to complain about losing sight of the Ichigo's insecure and repeated grabs for more power to out-twink his opponents is borne from a deep scar from a situation he was powerless in every sense of the word to affect.

Right now, looking at the current jojo/chapter black arc, you again can barely tell that he's in it to defend what he cares about over whether he's insecure or outright BORED of being mundane once more.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:40:10 2011 No.7596379 >>7596330 So you posted more shounen to prove my point and not yours?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:40:10 2011 No.7596380

>>7596355
>Precisely because of those spaces, once they travel far enough, there will be opening wide enough for a man to run through them
Wasn't it just you who said that the fight is at close range?
Besides, they are projected indefinitely; it's not like he projects a single batch, fires them all, then does it again later. There's simply no opening if they are fired in straight lines constantly.

>Did you see Berserker's body after he got impaled a lot?
Just a choice in animation. It's the same reason why Archer uses a cluster of NPs and only hits Caster once, or why Gil only hits Kuzuki twice even though at least 20 NPs are shown to go through where they are standing; it's too gory to show a body literally covered head to toe and mutilated by swords.
Once again, >>7596270

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:40:40 2011 No.7596375 File: 127 KB, 1382x347, 1310240410466.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I thought we got over this years ago.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:42:39 2011 No.7596388 >>7596377 >"I want to protect the people I care about" Dude, this is also for Shirou. He never cared about saving the villains in his VN like Kotomine. Then there's Ichigo trying to NOT kill Ulquiorra because I NEVER WANTED TO WIN THIS WAY

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:43:40 2011 No.7596393

>>7596363
Thats like hating a superhero because he has powers, also shiki wasnt even in full control of his powers to begin with, they didn't need to make him training or some boring shit like that because tuskihime was more of a mystery, shiki didnt know what was happening to him, he didnt know if he was going fucking crazy or not and neither did the reader. the whole story was wanting to figure out what was really going on, for the reader and for shiki. It wasn't about power levels and cool fights, it was about a teenager going through weird shit and trying to stop himself from going into depression of being insane. The whole "well shiki didnt work hard for it" doesn't matter, it wasn't needed.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:43:40 2011 No.7596394

>>7596363
I felt like they were written well enough to not be obscene about it, though.

Arc is retard strength powerful, but she refuses to ever sacrifice her sanity, so we'll never see the extent of her abilities.

Shiki is the ultimate glass cannon, and even if he can kill beings thousands of times stronger than him, his mortality is painfully frail, and will likely expire before he even see the age of 60.

I personally liked the balance of incredible strength, but severe consequences for said power.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:44:10 2011 No.7596397 >>7596394 More like never reaching 30

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:44:10 2011 No.7596398

>>7596380
>Wasn't it just you who said that the fight is at close range?
Dude, you can't use a projectile attack from close range because Shiki is already at your throat before you even get them off you. Especially since Shiki can move faster than a demon hybrid's eyes can track him at his 100 percent (without training).

>choice of animation
That choice of animation is a crappy excuse. You already got your proof. They aren't accurate with NP rainspam.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:46:10 2011 No.7596407
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>>7596311
>It doesn't mean that they can't be projected closely together enough so that you can't move through them.
You know, Archer's arrows shot from his bow moves approximately somewhere around mach 10 and mach 13.
Granted these are shot from the bow, but assuming Gilgamesh's weapons shot from his gate isn't all that much slower, and assuming that Archer's/Shirou's swords shot without the bow aren't that much slower than that, then one can still assume that these things are utterly crazy in how fast they are.

Servants tend to be able to move at supersonic speeds, and it seems that the average projectiles shot/thrown by Servants are relative in their speed as far as Servants goes compared to humans.
Meaning, that despite being able to move at supersonic speeds, it is still incredibly crazy feats to dodge them.

And Shiki isn't even a Servant, he is still a human, which skills disregarded, shouldn't even compare to a magically enhanced magus, despite all the inbreeding.
To parry/block is one thing, but to actually dodge the thing would be a feat that might even outdo what Neo did.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:46:10 2011 No.7596408

>>7596397
With SHIKI no longer sapping his life force, and Akiha supplementing hers, I figure as long as he uses his eyes incredibly sparingly, he might make it to 50.

But that hypothetical Tsukihime 2 will probably have him die in every hypothetical arc, so you're probably right if that ever is released.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:46:39 2011 No.7596405 >>7596363 Arcueid was created as the perfect True Ancestor by the other TAs, after countless of failed attempts. She is also the one who's body is closer to the Original. Is that not enough justification for you?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:47:40 2011 No.7596410

>>7596388
That's not the point, stop strawmanning. Reread through the thread; the discussion was never about whether Shirou had the same
>I WANT TO SAVE PEOPLE
as everyone else, just how it was explored and developed in contrast with Ichigo in that post.

>>7596393
>>7596394
Oh, I agree that they have more depth than that, but it makes power level discussions ultimately pointless because of the incredible bias towards them.
>SHIKI CAN KILL SHIROU
>ARC CAN KILL EVERYONE

Then that one idiotic Ado Adem fan comes in and people who adore Arc go
>BUT HE ISN'T STRONG AGAINST SMALL TARGETS

Perhaps I've been browsing /a/ far too long.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:48:40 2011 No.7596412
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>>7596377
(cont)
Naruto originally started as an outsider with a complex to become the best and change the way people around him did things. It's probably the closest you hit to "I want to save all the people!", but isn't spot-on. "I want to stop pointless bloodshed and sadness" is Naruto's gimmick, and it isn't one he's born with/bakstoried with, but one that's expressed through each of the characters he meets and interacts with.

Sasuke's personal vengeance, Haku and Zabuza's brutal way of life. Neji's outright horrific upbringing and the chip it grew on his shoulder, Lee's self-brutalizing when faced with the prospect of being completely worthless due to lack of talent. People that lamented about living in fear of those that stole, killed, and pillaged with no consequence, Jiraiya's sometimes sad lament that he couldn't effect the change that Naruto was growing to want in himself. Absolute monsters being born like Orochimaru. Absolute tragedies born like Gaara, or Pein.

And then that theme is almost completely lost two-ways: Sasuke's revenge completely overtaking all the parroting-ish development Naruto had in the first half of the story, turning him into a fangirl's dream of "omg they're going to die together sooooo romantic schlick schlick schlick". And Kishimoto throwing what remained of a cool world completely on hold to throw out a pointless masturbatory salute to Micheal Bay as done through undead plant ninja warfare. Naruto's theme is all but buried at this stage in time.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:48:44 2011 No.7596413

>>7596363
Arc was created solely for the reason of being powerful.
They go over True Ancestors, their role and circumstances tons of times.
She is the premium EARTH PROTECTOR, for fuck's sake.
Being powered by the fucking PLANET seems good enough justification.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:49:10 2011 No.7596420

>>7596398
>Dude, you can't use a projectile attack from close range
What is your definition of close range? I'm thinking 5~ meters away.

>That choice of animation is a crappy excuse.
Except it isn't. I'd like to see you explain why Archer would purposefully project blades that land 20 metres away from someone. Also, see >>7596407, which is something that I did not even think of, unfortunately.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:49:40 2011 No.7596416 >>7596368 >>7596368 >>7596368 THIS. Shirou basically doesn't even spam sword rain. He normally fights in close. Shiki's chances of killing Shirou are far higher in a fight just due to affinity.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:50:10 2011 No.7596423

>>7596394
>but she refuses to ever sacrifice her sanity, so we'll never see the extent of her abilities

The reason why we don't see the extent of her abilities is because she was "conveniently" weakened by the male main character at the beginning of the story.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:50:10 2011 No.7596426 >>7596407 >You know, Archer's arrows shot from his bow moves approximately somewhere around mach 10 and mach 13. Archer's bow =/= Shirou/Gil swordspam Archer wouldn't even use the bow if his swordspam had the same speed. He'd just throw the sword.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:50:41 2011 No.7596424 >>7596407 >shouldn't even compare to a magically enhanced magus And yet he still defeated Nero.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:51:40 2011 No.7596428 ahh, so this is where all my fellow /a/nons are ^^ i see u guys didnt lose time and ure already discussing tm powerlevels lol, gj!!

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:52:41 2011 No.7596431
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>>7596412
Negima and One Piece I can't speak on because the former I refuse to read for knowing it's Akamatsu's wet waifu dream that's rampant with exec meddling for at least half the story (on top of character bloat, which is a personal peeve of mine). And Luffy because I'm honestly not interested in One Piece, nor the 500+ chapters of catch up to BECOME interested.

But regardless, I'm confident enough to think neither protagonist strikes on the lines of "I want to save all the people!" and have it properly fleshed out. Oda, maybe, But Akamatsu doesn't know how to do dramatics played straight. He doesn't have the pen for it, and such a theme (also challenging that theme) would call for a skill the man doesn't have.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:52:41 2011 No.7596433 >>7596428 If you knew the definition of subtle, this might have been a good idea.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:53:09 2011 No.7596436 >the entire TM community over at BL agrees. This is where you lost the argument. The other guy lost, but you're the bigger faggot.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:53:10 2011 No.7596434

>>7596407
Magically reinforced magus of Shirou's caliber isn't anything special. The fights in the VN showed that. He was always on the defensive, never really had a chance in any form of combat where the opposing Servant didn't job to him or the environment not favoring him. Even with the environment favoring him, he still died after being put on the defensive 200 times.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:54:40 2011 No.7596437
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>>7596368
>The chances of Shiki destorying teh first couple weapons and getting the one hit he needs are better than Shirou getting his hit on
If Shiki were to destroy one of Shirou's weapons, Shirou would recreate and block with a new one.

Quite possibly, very much like in this scenario, only much more crude and less flashy due to neither of them being as good.

But as far as endurance go, we can't really say who would fall first.
"Killing" Noble Phantasms should really hurt.
And making them shouldn't be something Shirou could do forever given it is an iteration where he haven't mastered it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:55:40 2011 No.7596440

>>7596363
>Shiki is sort of like Arc, in that they are inherently extremely powerful with little work for it. Aside from the training in his past, his lineage and eyes make him extremely powerful. Same thing with Arc, if she went all out and stopped caring about her bloodlust, she'd destroy 99% of the characters in TM.
>The fact that they are so powerful with relatively little justification or work is why some people hate them.

Might be true, but like the T-M Ace poll said,

BOTH Shikis and Arcueid are high rankers that are above the top 5 in the official poll by T-M.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:55:40 2011 No.7596441 >>7596431 One piece is good, the only decent shouen, it has good plot and characters and never gets old, as for the others,they suck ass.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:56:39 2011 No.7596446

>>7596436
I could always say
>/jp/ agrees
But then this thread would get sagebombed to death. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to take.

I'm just going to refer to here again and also point out that while Shiki can certainly move faster than Shirou, he won't hit mach speeds or anything since he won't be awakened unless Shirou is a demon. >>7596270

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:57:09 2011 No.7596451 >>7596420 5 meters away is NOT a good place to start a long-range fight. That's pretty fucking close especially with Shiki able to travel 8 meters in 3 steps using three dimensions.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:58:09 2011 No.7596455

>>7596433
He doesn't need to be subtle because everyone involved understands exactly what his point is, and he's right.
One of the guys above has admitted to being from /a/ and the other is using naruto and bleach as examples, what more do you want?
Oh, nevermind. I know exactly why you said that.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:58:40 2011 No.7596456

>>7596434
>The fights in the VN showed that. He was always on the defensive, never really had a chance in any form of combat where the opposing Servant didn't job to him or the environment not favoring him
>the opposing Servant
Here is your mistake. For a human, magus or not, to even go on the defensive against a Servant is incredibly incredible.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:59:11 2011 No.7596466

>>7596420
Actually it is a crappy excuse. It means he's not accurate, throwing so many, landing so few.

>>7596446
You used the 100 percent setting, so Shiki auto-gets his Nanaya self. That said, Shiki only needs to feel the need to survive to get his Nanaya self, not a demon only.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 15:59:41 2011 No.7596464 >>7596446 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/a/

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:03:42 2011 No.7596484 >>7596456 Nothing special. Souichirou has already gone beyond that.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:04:13 2011 No.7596487

>>7596466
>Actually it is a crappy excuse. It means he's not accurate, throwing so many, landing so few.
Except it's not. If you rewatch the times where Archer rains his swords in the anime and movie, you'd see none of them hit for a few seconds as they stand there. Unless you're implying that Archer isn't even bothering to fire one sword directly at his opponent, you're wrong. Additionally, it's clear that he can change the spread (compare him raining outside and inside the church).

>You used the 100 percent setting, so Shiki auto-gets his Nanaya self.
Then he still doesn't win all the time because of >>7596270.

>hat said, Shiki only needs to feel the need to survive to get his Nanaya self
Wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:04:14 2011 No.7596492 >>7596484 With the help of Caster, a servant's enhancing.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:05:43 2011 No.7596494

>>7596484

Kuzuki only managed to do it with a Strengthening from Caster, a Servant level magus.

Furthermore, he actually could NOT go defensive against a Servant. He only managed an ambush assassinate attack on an unexpected Saber.
It was said right the fuck out, that if Saber saw it coming, Kuzuki would lose his arms.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:07:13 2011 No.7596503 File: 51 KB, 800x600, 1310242023550.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Lets change the discussion. Who could handle harem better Shiki or Shirou?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:07:14 2011 No.7596510

>>7596487
ONLY Nasu said all the time.
That said, in a close range fight with 100 percent of their abilities, Shiki is BOUND to win even if he does not try to read the death of every NP Shirou makes.

Even from afar, Shiki is fast enough to make Shirou miss with his spam and waste his prana doing so. If Shirou tries to get to Shiki up close, then he's asking to get himself killed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:07:17 2011 No.7596505 File: 1.35 MB, 816x1392, 144088732350ab122c6b1075c6b089a55cd85a0c.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7595910 >5. Karen Ortensia How the hell is Karen so popular? I mean I like her, but she's barely even a side character.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:08:16 2011 No.7596516 >>7596505 She's fuckhot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:08:16 2011 No.7596518 >>7596503 Shiki is modest when it comes to girls, but far more dominant. Shirou is horrid at interpersonal relationships because he is a sword.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:08:16 2011 No.7596519 >>7596505 She's a troll like her father, but more good-natured and has breasts.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:09:14 2011 No.7596525 >>7596510 >ONLY Nasu said all the time. Without considering his brain aneurysm. We've gone full circle in this thread, I'm out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:09:14 2011 No.7596526 >>7596505 because she's awesome, play F/HA and you'll see

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:10:14 2011 No.7596532 >>7596516 This. I don't know anything else about her, and I don't really care

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:11:14 2011 No.7596533 >>7596526 I have question, how much translation are translated now?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:11:14 2011 No.7596534 >>7596487 >Wrong. No. It's survival instinct. That's what it implied during Ciel route. That's why it only kicks in when Shiki feels death up close. And demons are a threat to his life because his clan are demon killers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:11:15 2011 No.7596537 >>7596525 Yeah, but that's not the point. Read the rest of my reply that has nothing to do with what Nasu said.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:11:15 2011 No.7596540 >>7596533 About 55%.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:12:43 2011 No.7596545

And for the other half of this thread's more pointless argument:

>Souichirou
Enhanced by a magus from the Age of the Gods. Your comparison's invalid.

>Wall of swords
The danger's half-negated by the fact that Shiki can sense death approaching at a pacing/speed similar to Spider-Man. Nevermind how spamming outside of UBW would tax Shirou. He'd find quickly it's not a productive strategy too fast. Also, sword spam is fucking destructive, and I'd think Emiya would be mindful of leaving a mess about after the fact.

>Sensou/Sensa
Get Shiki very far along with his very practical mind. But against inhumanly fast types like Arc and Ciel with superior melee skill, it's shit. Let's not forget, up front Shirou is a built tank who can and does utilize the experience speed/skill he gets from the swords he produces. Even if Shirou's scrambling, it'd be nothing for him to trace and produce Nanatsuya and match Shiki in a knife-fight until he could think of something else. As the knife would most definitely come with the abilities of Sensa & Sensou.

>word of god
He's right. And he's also wrong. This is just like the whole lot of the Madoka fanbase accepting ships as canon just because the "creators" encouraged a shitload of shippy fanart for the series/episode previews.

>Bottom line
It's a throw up to whoever wins as both men have pluses and minuses working in their case. Terrain (shiki), armory (shirou), stamina (shiki/shirou), skill (shiki/shirou), battle comprehension/tactics (shiki/shirou)--there's no clear-cut solution to it and you're deluding yourselves if you think there is.

In any case we all know Rin and Akiha would beat their asses for pointlessly fighting anyway.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:13:15 2011 No.7596550
File: 272 KB, 800x600, 1310242431321.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7596424
>And yet he still defeated Nero.
Wait, seriously? I didn't expect people to still be confused about this, was pretty sure fans covered this throughoutly over and over again, years ago.

Nero was so much more capable than Shiki it is almost not even funny.
The only reason Shiki could take down Nrvnsqr was due to how Nrvnsqr was highly confident and convinced that this little boy with seemingly no magical powers or special weapons, would be of any threat at all.
In no way did he think Shiki would even be able hurt him in the slightest.

This line of arguing is really the same as saying that Sakura could beat Gilgamesh.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:14:15 2011 No.7596557 >>7596487 Changing the spread still doesn't make spam accurate. He still doesn't get all of them to hit and most of their targets are pretty much in one stationary position.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:14:44 2011 No.7596556 File: 311 KB, 720x960, 1310242478847.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7596516 >She's fuckhot. Rider is fucking hotter (if not the hottest) and she's only 10th.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:16:14 2011 No.7596565

>>7596550
>In no way did he think Shiki would even be able hurt him in the slightest.
Actually, no. That's wrong. After Nero saw Shiki start killing dragons and unicorns and some phantasmal beasts he had in him (this after Shiki basically was fighting with a huge crevice in his belly and after killing several of Nero's minions), he went full serious and went at Shiki at full power in full speed from a distance. Shiki still killed him.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:20:44 2011 No.7596582

>>7596545
The problem is that Shirou cannot tank what kills him immediately, MEoDP. Nanatsuya isn't a noble phantasm and therefore even if Shirou makes it, Shiki can actually KILL that replication very easily. Which makes Shirou vulnerable even more to instant death or getting dotted because he's human.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:21:14 2011 No.7596587

>>7596565
>After Nero saw Shiki start killing dragons and unicorns and some phantasmal beasts he had in him (this after Shiki basically was fighting with a huge crevice in his belly and after killing several of Nero's minions)
This never happened. Arcueid fought those things. Shiki was left fighting dogs and whatever sparse low level shit Nero didn't think much of.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:23:45 2011 No.7596596 >>7596582 >tank In this case, was not referring to the modern gaming archtype.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:23:45 2011 No.7596599 >>7596582 >Shiki can actually KILL that replication very easily In all the two times Shiki and Roa got into a knife fight, Shiki did not think to 'kill' the knife he was using.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:23:45 2011 No.7596601

>>7596587
I suggest you read Arcueid route, Nero fight, Tsukihime.

It specifically says that Arcueid was stuck on the ground being helpless and shit, while Shiki said he saw all sorts of fantastic beasts like dragons, unicorns and shit. Then the final move of Nero where he moves as fast as Arcueid. Shiki still kills them.

Before you say anything stupid, re-read the damn fight again.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:23:45 2011 No.7596602
File: 99 KB, 728x1050, 1310243019814.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7596582
Actually, he can tank what immediately kills him.

100% vs 100%?

That means Avalon.

Now that I've hurt your brain with another frustrating detail to take to mind, can we drop this pointless argument?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:25:14 2011 No.7596610

>>7596599
That's because SHIKI's knife is a normal knife. And Shiki needs a bit of concentration for things like that.
Shirou's replicas are downgrade one rank.
It would be physically weaker in terms of MEoDP because it would have more weaknesses than a normal knife would.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:26:19 2011 No.7596620

>>7596602
No, Avalon does not work that way. It can regenerate you the way vampires have instant regeneration. And even then, it took Avalon a long ass time to heal Shirou when Berserker gutted him on the street. MEoDP makes you disappear, it's not just a simple wound. It's like Gae Bolg in that it subverts reality so that, instead of you being auto-dead on the spot, your entire existence disappears and is sent back to Akasha.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:27:19 2011 No.7596623
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>>7596599
Anon he replied to. Logically sounding, though, he's still has a point, but Shiki would know in two blows of defending Shirou's knife attack that he's not really gunning for Shiki's "lines". Which mean the attack would not be something to take absolutely serious--instead it'd painful yet not entirely effective mimicry. Logically, Shiki has decided to sacrifice body to make a kill, which he would go for in that situation.

But as I ALSO just replied:

>100% vs 100%?

>That means Avalon.

Again. Argument. Silly. Stop.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:29:47 2011 No.7596636 Implanted Avalon does not prevent death. It only allows for regeneration.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:30:19 2011 No.7596638 >>7596620 100% would mean Shirou can activate Avalon as soon as Shiki gets near him and reflects any attack directed at him. This means Shiki will get hit by his own MEoDP. Let's not go there though, since Shirou is heavily favoured here.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:30:49 2011 No.7596642 >>7596587 >This never happened. Oh wow, this guy never read Tsukihime. Did you watch a crappy not-anime?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:31:18 2011 No.7596653 >>7596645 Say that to Gil on the bridge when he attacked Saber you mongrel.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:31:19 2011 No.7596645 >>7596638 But Avalon doesn't reflect attacks, silly.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:31:19 2011 No.7596646
File: 60 KB, 508x432, 1310243469732.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7596620
Vampires don't have instant regeneration, they have the world reversing time on their bodies back to a state before the body was injured (Regeneration Hex, Curse of Regeneration). Avalon locks out all outside interferences, including the five sorceries, and places the user in an absolute area of protection. Even curses can't stand up to it--all damage that's not to the head is healed within instant so long as there's prana to feed the Noble Phantasm.

Which means negating the damage done by the MEoDP.

Which really breaks this down to who wins, an unstoppable force, or an immovable object?

Which is silly, so I think I'll start writing porn now. Doubles gets to request which TM character and kink.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:31:49 2011 No.7596651 >>7596638 >reflects any attack directed at him Avalon can't reflect attacks.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:32:47 2011 No.7596654 >>7596653 Anime only bullshit

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:33:17 2011 No.7596659 >>7596653 It didn't reflect the attack. Reread the scene.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:33:48 2011 No.7596660

>>7596587

No.

Shiki first fought the random trash. Then the big trash (jaguars, elephants). Then the magic shit (unicorns, dragons). Then Nrvnqsr's personal "Killing Beasts", giant crab-spiders. Then Nero himself came at him. Then he went 999th Beast and came at him again.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:34:17 2011 No.7596665 File: 286 KB, 783x602, 1310243691646.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7596645 This discussion was had on /a/ already.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:34:17 2011 No.7596666 >>7596654 >>7596659 Gilgamesh got a unique character sprite just for the effect. His shoulder was on fire. I don't believe it reflected the attack, but he must have got some sort of backlash.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:34:17 2011 No.7596667 >>7596654 >>7596659 It was in the VN, and it clearly showed him being injured after it. Don't make me go to youtube.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:34:17 2011 No.7596668

>>7596638
Again. That is NOT how Avalon works. Even then, it's not something that lasts forever. Besides, Shiki's attack negates ALL external factors, which Avalon could be classified as. It only targets the target. It's what makes barriers useless against Shiki. That said, Shirou cannot attack with Avalon, and Shiki's attack is not a blast attack that you can simply deflect.

Nasu still says at full power, Shiki beats Shirou. And there's a reason for that. Because Avalon is useless in a fight against Shiki.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:36:16 2011 No.7596679 >>7596667 Except it didn't reflect it. That attack was Excalibur +Avalon.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:36:47 2011 No.7596674

>>7596668
>Nasu still says at full power,
At full power, he dies because his brain melts. What we're going by here is a Shiki disregarding his weakness.

>Besides, Shiki's attack negates ALL external factors, which Avalon could be classified as.
And Avalon is an NP that negates ALL external factors, even True Magic. Can God life a rock that cannot be lifted?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:37:47 2011 No.7596682 >Handsome

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:38:19 2011 No.7596688

>>7596646
Go here >>7596668

And again, you're really reaching here now. Besides, Nasu's description of MEoDP is NEGATES ALL EXTERNAL FACTORS.

Avalon is an external factor. Shiki's only target is Shirou. And even then, you cannot attack anyone while in Avalon. Shiki's blade is not a fucking blast attack that you can deflect.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:38:49 2011 No.7596686 >>7596665 Was this ever explained anyways? This sprite was ONLY shown in this one scene in the VN, there must be some significance here.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:39:48 2011 No.7596692 >>7596679 >Saber is lying on the ground, unable to move or even conjure her armor >Shirou is barely alive from being cut in half and manages and is about to die You're telling me either of them can summon an Excaliblast in those states?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:40:47 2011 No.7596698 >>7596688 Go here: >>7596674 Avalon does the exact same thing, but defensively. Your argument holds no merit until Nasu clarifies this. Enjoy your insane ramblings and fanwank.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:40:47 2011 No.7596699

Avalon - The Ever Distant Utopia
The normal ability is healing injuries and preventing aging. Activation as a Noble Phantasm causes it to come apart in hundreds of pieces and completely protect its user from all forms of interference, a mobile fortress. Shuts (not blocks or reflects, but shuts) out all physical interference, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional (multiplanar; as far as the 6th) contact; including all of the five magics. A Noble Phantasm on the level of magic. The greatest protection in the world.
Incidentally, it can't reflect energy bolts like in the anime. Hell it didn't even do that in the game when Ea was used against Avalon in the real last battle. Rank: EX
Type: Bounded Barrier
Max AOE: 1 unit

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:41:17 2011 No.7596704

>>7596674
>At full power, he dies because his brain melts.
STOP BEING AN IDIOT.

Shiki can CHOOSE what he wants to kill. He can CHOOSE to not discern the deaths of NPs. Therefore his brain won't melt. Because he's only reading the death of Shirou's human self.

>And Avalon is an NP that negates ALL external factors, even True Magic. Can God life a rock that cannot be lifted?
MEoDP is connected to the root and it negates ALL external factors trying to block him from reaching his target.

Besides, NASU ALREADY SAID AT FULL POWER, SHIKI BEATS SHIROU. Of course this takes Avalon into account, an ability that is not even something you can use to attack someone with, especially since in Shiki's case, you cannot deflect back a knife slice like you can a prana blast.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 16:41:46 2011 No.7596703 >>7596688 Avalon, when activated, is like stepping out of reality. Nothing can affect you, because you're not even there. An atomic bomb could go off at your feet, and you wouldn't even feel it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:43:16 2011 No.7596713 >>7596704 See: >>7596270 >MEoDP is connected to the root and it negates ALL external factors trying to block him from reaching his target. See: >>7596699 >>7596703 Your fanwank is delicious, please continue.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:43:17 2011 No.7596710 File: 12 KB, 319x329, 1310244190354.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Good ol' Type Moon power level threads.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:43:47 2011 No.7596712 >>7596703 Again, it's an external factor that MEoDP does not give a shit about because MEoDP is way closer to the Root than Avalon is. It is supposed to see the death and weakness in ALL things.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:45:15 2011 No.7596719

>>7596698
>Enjoy your insane ramblings and fanwank.
That makes what you say even more fanwank. That said, you cannot attack from Avalon. That's like a going inside your shell. You won't win that way. And when you get out, some guy is going to fucking cut your head off.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:45:19 2011 No.7596725 >>7596713 It's NOT fanwank. It's the fucking canon description of Shiki's ability, you moron.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:45:46 2011 No.7596721

>>7596704

>MEoDP is connected to the root and it negates ALL external factors trying to block him from reaching his target.

Uh, not quite. MEoDP can't be blocked, so the knife blade will penetrate anything, but if he's held off or his arms are restrained, he's just as powerless.

Avalon prevents ANYTHING from entering, Shiki could not even approach.

So it wouldn't work unless he could understand Avalon's death, and that's just fucking silly.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:47:47 2011 No.7596730 So by this argument, Shiki can't approach Avalon, and Shirou cannot interact with anything outside of Avalon, and I can't imagine Avalon can exist indefinitely.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:47:47 2011 No.7596732 >>7596721 Dude, Shiki's not trying to enter Avalon. He's just there to cut Shirou from just a bit outside Avalon. It's like pointing a gun with bullets that can pass through anything and Shirou's behind a metal door.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:47:47 2011 No.7596733

>>7596725
See:
>>7596699

>>7596719
>That makes what you say even more fanwank.
Nope, I only popped in to say that you can't touch Avalon or anyone inside it. I don't care if Shirou dies once he's out of it or not. So no, you are the one fanwanking friend.

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 16:48:18 2011 No.7596735

>>7596713
You can't affect something that doesn't even exist, anymore. That's like saying "I cut the darkness." The darkness is just the absence of visible waves. It's a completely abstract concept, a concept of nothing at all.

I cut the invisible pink unicorn. But the invisible pink unicorn doesn't exist, so it has no death. Likewise, when using Avalon, you step out of reality and cease to be affected by anything else.

It's an easy concept.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:49:18 2011 No.7596736 >>7596732 >It's like pointing a gun with bullets that can pass through anything and Shirou's behind a door that does not let anything pass through it because it warps reality Fixed.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:49:18 2011 No.7596740

>>7596733
Why are you pointing me to that post? Again, that post says NOTHING about MEoDP. It's not anywhere in that post at all.

MEoDP negates ALL external factors in order to reach its target. That is canon. Shirou is the target, Avalon is an external factor.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:49:48 2011 No.7596738 >>7596732 Avalon should at LEAST block the reach of a god damned dagger. Shiki himself could not get by it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:50:17 2011 No.7596747

>>7596704
>Besides, NASU ALREADY SAID AT FULL POWER, SHIKI BEATS SHIROU
He also said in an interview that Shirou would win if he would use one of those "mana blasts", aka activating a noble phantasm.

Face it, he have taken both sides on numerous occasions.
He have also said that it could end in a draw with neither killing eachother and both dying from their own abilities.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:52:17 2011 No.7596755

>>7596735
No, it exists, but in another reality. And that's the thing. Even Avalon's reality is connected to the Root. EVERYTHING is connected to the Root. And MEoDP is the most egregious example of people knowing what the Root influences in Nasuverse.

It's not hard to see WHY Shiki can basically ignore Avalon as an external factor because the Root still exists in Avalon and Shiki can still see Shirou.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:53:21 2011 No.7596765 >>7596763 Over here >>7596755

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:53:51 2011 No.7596762 >>7596747 No, Nasu said it might be a different story if Shirou could use mana blasts, not that he could use them at will or that it would means he actually wins at all. It could mean Shiki just doesn't win all the time.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:53:51 2011 No.7596763

>>7596740
I'm pointing to that post because Avalon negates all external factors as well: you can't say that MEoDP wins then.
Don't give me bullshit about the death of all things; unless his eyes can start killing and seeing alternate realities, you've got nothing.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:54:21 2011 No.7596769

>Avalon
Eh? Why are you guys arguing this.
Shirou can't activate Avalon as a noble phantasm, he merely gets some secondary effects due to being tied to it.

But if Avalon was ativated, you sure can bet that not even the MeoDP would be able to do squat against it.
Nothing can touch what's iside Avalon.
It would be like an irresistible force meeting an immovable object, only that the immovable object wouldn't even be there, so they wouldn't even meet and the paradox wouldn't even have a chance to happen.
And even if it did, you can't with any certainty say one would win.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:54:48 2011 No.7596767 >>7596740 For god's sake, MEoDP "negating" factors only applies to the blade! It does not apply to every inch of Shiki's body!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:55:18 2011 No.7596779 File: 231 KB, 618x624, 1310244947523.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7596682 You called?

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 16:55:21 2011 No.7596772

>>7596755
You observe yourself, and other things observe you, but nothing outside can reach you. You're not even there, anymore: no longer even a physical concept that Shiki could touch. You're a phantom. You cannot be affected. That's the simple of it. Shiki actually has to be in proximity of you to affect you. You're no longer in proximity of Shiki.

It's like being in the Twilight Zone.

And Shiki can't kill the Twilight Zone.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:55:48 2011 No.7596775 >>7596765 I see nothing about him cutting alternate realities in that post. Like I said, unless his MEoDP shows Zeltretch levels of hacks, I don't think so friend.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:56:18 2011 No.7596782

>>7596767
Umm, no. The blade has nothing to do with MEoDP. Shiki can kill you with a fork if he wants to.

MEoDP ignores all external factors when he gets a target, that's why Arcueid said Shiki has the potential ability to kill anything, why Arcueid calls Shiki even more of a monster than she is.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:57:50 2011 No.7596788

>>7596765
You're thinking of cutting the Sheath itself (which would kill his brain, but whatever), but once it's activated, there's literally nothing to cut. There's just a dislocation of reality where Shirou was standing a second ago; that space is now literally a warped reality that has no physical form: it is an intangible that Shiki can't touch.

That's all there is to it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:58:49 2011 No.7596792 File: 353 KB, 742x598, 1310245099890.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >mfw I accidentally trolled this thread to a horrible demise.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:58:49 2011 No.7596796

>>7596772
>>7596769
They are there. Because those are realities based on the Root. And Shiki's MEoDP is a weapon that understands the weakness of Shiki's targets because of its closeness to the Root. Even if he's in another reality, Shiki can fucking see Shirou in the same place, making Avalon nothing more than an external factor which his MEoDP can ignore as his MEoDP is based on the Root, not some mere dimension made by magic that's connected to the Root.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:58:54 2011 No.7596797

>>7596782

>Shiki can kill you with a fork if he wants to.

In this situation, the fork is the blade.

"The blade" is whatever Shiki is trying to put in the death dot.

THAT IS ONLY IF HE CAN >REACH< THE DEATH DOT. Shiki's body cannot suddenly walk through any bounded field he pleases! Even Ryougi Shiki couldn't.

You can't armor the death dot, but you CAN block access to the death dot, and Avalon is a FIELD EFFECT.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:59:22 2011 No.7596799

>>7596782
>that's why Arcueid said Shiki has the potential ability to kill anything

Araya said the same thing about Ryougi. That given time, she would be able to kill everything. But they both like to wank the shit out of them, and their knowledge regarding the workings of the MEoDP has been proven to be incomplete.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 16:59:49 2011 No.7596803

Q: Archer's greatest defense is "Rho Aias", but if he were the same person as Shirou, shouldn't his greatest protection be "Avalon"? In the Rin route, Archer knew that the holy sword's sheath was inside Shirou, so wouldn't the Heroic Spirit form of the Shirou that "knew" that the sheath was merged with him be Archer?
Nasu: Avalon’s power won't work if Saber's not connected to it. It's a different story during the Grail War, but all it does when Saber isn't around is make Shirou's magic attribute into "sword". Also, after the Grail War is taken apart, the line between him and her will be gone, so it's best to think that his image of "Avalon" also disappeared.

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 17:00:21 2011 No.7596814

>>7596796
He sees an image. If you see a man in the mirror, are you actually saying that that is the real man, there?

That's because it's not. It's an image, reflected. Avalon is through the looking glass. Not in Kansas, anymore. As far away as you need to be.

Zero proximity, no relationship. I'm not sure why you fail to understand.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:00:50 2011 No.7596812

>Shiki can kill anything
>Shiki kills the reason for why he isn't Superman
>Shiki is now Superman with Laser Eyes of Death Perception
>Shirou activated Avalon as a Noble Phantasm because he loves doing that and does it all the time
>Shiki with his Superman gained powers throws the reality breaking punch showed in the silver age lineup of Superman comics, overhauling reality itself beating Avalon by breaking the fourth wall
>Shiki looks at Shirou with Laser Eyes of Death Percetion and kills him instantly with no risk of failure
This is how ridiculous I think this thread have gotten, and it wasn't exactly super either. And the stupid green text of this post fits the current feel of this thread.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:01:50 2011 No.7596817

>>7596796
>Even if he's in another reality, Shiki can fucking see Shirou in the same place
This is basically what you're saying, and you're wrong. Just because it's connected to the route doesn't mean he can now see into alternate realities. There has literally been no evidence of Tohno being able to see into and kill entire alternate realities. Your entire post is fanwank:

>Avalon puts you in an intangible state where you have no form that can be physically touched
>NU UH HE'S CONNECTED TO THE ROOT HE CAN SEE INTANGIBLES

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:01:50 2011 No.7596819 >>7596812 The only person with Laser Eyes of Death Perception was Balor. Nobody else gets that ever.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:01:50 2011 No.7596820 >>7596797 >Avalon >Max AOE: 1 unit NOPE It's fucking easy to reach that dot or line. Besides, no matter what anyone says, YOU CAN'T FIGHT BACK FROM AVALON. And it's STILL connected to the Root, something that Shiki's MEoDP can target.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:02:52 2011 No.7596825 >>7596812 These threads need some fresh blood.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:03:21 2011 No.7596834 >>7596812 It's >Ryougi can kill the concept of fight All over again.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:03:24 2011 No.7596827

>>7596817
Shiki is NOT trying to kill Avalon. MEoDP ignores Avalon. He's trying to kill Shirou. And that's what MEoDP will do.

It has higher priority, since it's connected to the Root. Avalon, like all things, is connected to the Root. MEoDP will just ignore that shit.

>>7596814
Fucking read above.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:04:50 2011 No.7596837 File: 23 KB, 480x320, 1310245474878.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >this thread

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:04:50 2011 No.7596838

>>7596803
>Nasu: Avalon’s power won't work if Saber's not connected to it. It's a different story during the Grail War, but all it does when Saber isn't around is make Shirou's magic attribute into "sword". Also, after the Grail War is taken apart, the line between him and her will be gone, so it's best to think that his image of "Avalon" also disappeared.

All this argument, and Shirou can't even use Avalon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:05:21 2011 No.7596840 >>7596820 A single dagger is probably not the range of one unit. And Shiki's arm would be unable to pass Avalon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:05:21 2011 No.7596842 >>7596827 So now you're going back to your flawed argument that Shiki can see into alternate realities or parallel planes and cut stuff in them and he's even stronger than Zeltretch in this regard?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:05:51 2011 No.7596847 >>7596840 One unit is a fucking Servant's body. The fuck is wrong with you?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:06:23 2011 No.7596850 >>7596838 >All this argument, and Shirou can't even use Avalon. We've been trolled.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 17:07:23 2011 No.7596855 >>7596827 * Target uses Avalon. * Target no longer exists in reality. * Shiki attacks Target. * Shiki strikes the void. * It's completely ineffective!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:07:23 2011 No.7596856 >>7596779 No. Cartoon asian males aren't my idea of handsome.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:07:51 2011 No.7596860

>>7596838

You kidding me? All this argument and we haven't even specified WHICH Shirou is doing the fighting!

We basically ruled out Archer Arm Shirou, but other than that, it's a mesh of Fate and UBW Shirous.

>>7596847

Servant bodies are not 6 inches long, the length of the Nanaya dagger's blade.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:08:22 2011 No.7596862

>>7596842
Dude, Gun God is stronger than Zelretch in some regards.

And Shiki doesn't need to see into an alternate reality.

Why? BECAUSE YOU'RE STILL VISIBLE IN THE CURRENT PLANE EVEN IF YOU USE THAT ABILITY OF AVALON'S.

That said, >>7596838 actually destroys any argument about Shirou ever using Avalon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:09:23 2011 No.7596869 >>7596855 Over here >>7596862 MEoDP can still see you, your created reality is just an external factor that MEoDP ignores, you still get stabbed and die.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:09:52 2011 No.7596868 >>7596862 >BECAUSE YOU'RE STILL VISIBLE IN THE CURRENT PLANE EVEN IF YOU USE THAT ABILITY OF AVALON'S. Actually we have no idea if you are or aren't. Avalon is really bright.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:10:23 2011 No.7596870

>>7596862
>BECAUSE YOU'RE STILL VISIBLE IN THE CURRENT PLANE EVEN IF YOU USE THAT ABILITY OF AVALON'S.
So you're now saying that Shiki can kill images?
Like I've said before, there is no physical construct inside that field: THERE IS NOTHING TO CUT. The image is just that, an image.

It's like saying that if I shoot the mirror image of myself, I'll die.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:10:23 2011 No.7596872 File: 396 KB, 600x600, 1310245819630.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Ryougi Shiki is the one and only real Shiki.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:10:52 2011 No.7596874

Shiki killing through Avalon doesn't make sense. Even if he can see Shirou, there is a vast amount of space between them. Avalon is a displacement, not a portal. And even if Shiki can stick his knife through Avalon, that would mean there's a vast amount of space between Shiki and his knife. Which means it's not connected to him anymore.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 17:10:52 2011 No.7596876 >>7596862 Know what Shiki can't kill? Love, because it's a concept that doesn't exist in reality, just like anyone affected by Avalon's activation.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:11:24 2011 No.7596880 File: 77 KB, 640x360, 1310245919885.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7596856 You sure on that?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:12:24 2011 No.7596881

>>7596860
Servant bodies are not 6 inches long, the length of the Nanaya dagger's blade.
Dude, 1 unit means a lot of things. Do you think the 1 unit attack of their melee attacks mean that Servants are equal to the height of the weapons?

How about no? 1 unit means it's small and will only cover one unit. The size of one body. Which means a knife 6 inches long CAN penetrate it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:13:25 2011 No.7596889 >>7596881 If it only covers one unit, one body, how come both Shirou and Saber were defended from Enuma Elish the first time Avalon was ever used?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:14:25 2011 No.7596891

>>7596870
Avalon makes the person into an image because he's in another dimension while standing in the same damn place on the current world. To MEoDP, he is not an image, he's just a dude covered with an external factor that MEoDP NEGATES COMPLETELY.

Who the fuck even cares? Even if Shirou can't be touched by Shiki in Avalon, Shirou can't do diddly-squat inside Avalon. He'd still die the moment he steps out.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:14:25 2011 No.7596892

>>7596862
Over here,
>>7596874
>>7596876

Thread needs to end here. You're treating Avalon as a portal, but it's a displacement in that you don't instantly become connected with something if you get there. Secondly, whoever is inside Avalon becomes an intangible concept and is no longer a physical presence, MEoDP doesn't force concepts into physical existences. Unless you're saying it can, I don't see what there is to argue.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:14:25 2011 No.7596897 File: 269 KB, 784x590, 1310246094332.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:14:55 2011 No.7596895 >>7596889 Because it was in a shield form?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:16:23 2011 No.7596900 >>7596892 >MEoDP doesn't force concepts into physical existences Shiki killed the concept of Arcueid's connection to Gaia into a physical existence by killing the planet around her while Gaia was still alive and kicking everywhere else.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:17:58 2011 No.7596905

>>7596891

>he's just a dude covered with an external factor

No. Avalon literally takes you somewhere else for the duration of the attack.

This is not a metaphor, it is not a shield.

You aren't there. You're in Avalon. It's not a reality marble where you're "there but not in the same reality". You're just not fucking there. It's empty space that you cannot reach.
There's no factors. If you swing at where they were, you swing at empty nothing. BECAUSE THAT ISN'T WHERE THEY ARE.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:18:25 2011 No.7596915 >>7596905 >literally takes you somewhere else >you're still there on Earth visible to others

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:18:27 2011 No.7596909 File: 346 KB, 640x359, 1310246283255.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] You know, you should all stop bickering and just look at Arcueid glomp Shiki with her wonderful perfection of a body.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:19:54 2011 No.7596919 The discussion has been going in circle for a while now.

>>	「ロリあき」 Sat Jul 9 17:19:54 2011 No.7596921 >>7596909 >glomp Don't use that word here.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:20:26 2011 No.7596925 File: 561 KB, 374x755, 1310246423186.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7596909 Or Arcueid showing why red swimsuits look good on her.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:20:54 2011 No.7596926

Whoa, whoa. Let me intrude in for just a second.

If you're saying Shiki's trying to ignore Avalon altogether and kill Shirou directly, there is no way that will work. Even if we decided that Shiki could see Shirou, he has to get past Avalon. If Shirou's his target, the Shiki trying to get past Avalon is just this: a teenager with a knife. He's not even using MEoDP in that situation. Shirou's his target. In order to reach him he has to physically get past Avalon without even using MEoDP.

That is NOT fucking possible.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:20:54 2011 No.7596928

>>7596891
>To MEoDP, he is not an image, he's just a dude covered with an external factor that MEoDP NEGATES COMPLETELY.
No, that's still wrong. Avalon literally takes you another reality and you essentially become merged with it to achieve the effect. There is no way MEoDP can negate this unless it can now start cutting intangibles or alternate realities.

>>7596900
Not the same thing. Shiki could see the dots/lines on the earth and cutting them would 'kill' that part of it, so Arc wouldn't get power from that area. We're talking about trying to kill something that doesn't physically exist due to Avalon here; there's nothing to stab.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:21:24 2011 No.7596929

>>7596915

Fucking prove it!
NOWHERE DOES IT SAY YOU ARE STILL VISIBLE TO OTHERS.
We have only seen avalon from the inside, we've never had an external view! All they could see is a white ball!

It outright SAYS that the effects of Avalon ~ All is a Distant Utopia is that "the user is taken to the realm of the faeries".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:21:55 2011 No.7596931 who is he?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:22:54 2011 No.7596935 >>7596929 >Anime duels Besides, I heard that Nasu made the anime fights canon just like UBW happening with the Archer-Berserker fight, when it wasn't really shown how it happened in the VN.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:22:54 2011 No.7596937

>>7596926
I think the misconception here is that the one guy arguing this thinks that it works in the same way as Gae Bolg, that it's an effect-cause scenario where attempting to stab someone would rule out all external influences. This isn't the case, as he has to stab first for that to take effect and we all know he's not stabbing through Avalon into a reality that has no physical concept.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:23:55 2011 No.7596942 >>7596935 >anime GRRRRRRRRRRRRR. The only "canon" thing taken from the Anime that I've heard is the design of Kanshou and Bakuya Overedge because Nasu loved the "dangerous look" of the feathery blades.

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 17:24:25 2011 No.7596945

>>7596900
He killed a real, existing connection. The connection itself existed, therefore he could kill it. He did not force the connection to exist. It simply did.

It's a similar reason why Shiki can't kill the weather, or lust, or the Night of Wallachia. Phenomenons don't have physical existences. To properly understand a phenomenon and target it, Shiki would have to be a phenomenon himself, or somehow rewire his brain to actively implement chaos theory.

All of this is secondary to the fact that you cannot affect what isn't even there. Hell, even if Shiki could kill phenomenons, his own lust, and my love for Kohaku, all of those things exist in the world he's in. Avalon doesn't~

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:24:26 2011 No.7596946 >>7596937 >>7596929 >>7596928 >>7596926 They're still visible on Earth. MEoDP ignores everything external because connection to Root. Avalon is connected to Root so it's just a shitty external factor = ignored.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:25:26 2011 No.7596948 >>7596935 >I heard that Nasu made the anime fights canon Nope, only that Archer vs Berserker fight in Fate anime.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:25:26 2011 No.7596949 >>7596942 Nasu is credited for writing all the original stuffs that happened in the anime. He had a heavy input on it, you can't just call non-canon because you don't like it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:26:25 2011 No.7596952 File: 251 KB, 1198x2696, 1310246771383.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7596601 Nrvnsqr lost because he was caught off guard and didn't know what was going on. He didn't understand any of it, and Shiki just fluked out lucky.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:26:56 2011 No.7596953 >>7596946 >They're still visible on Earth. Still waiting on evidence. Last I checked Avalon exudes a blinding radiance.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:27:25 2011 No.7596955

>>7596945
MEoDP doesn't give a shit about this single reality. It's connected to the fucking DAMN ROOT.

EVERYTHING is connected to the Root. MEoDP ignores such shit because it's connected to the Root.

MEoDP is not limited to one single reality precisely because it is part of the Root. Avalon is just a shitty nuisance it ignores.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 17:27:55 2011 No.7596957 On a side note, even Enuma Elish, an attack that distorts and rips reality itself, did fuck all to Avalon's effect. If the greatest offensive Noble Phantasm in existence does nothing...

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:28:26 2011 No.7596962

>>7596937
Yeah. Even Shiki being able to kill Avalon itself would be debatable, but him bypassing it altogether is just ludicrous.

But in the first place Shirou can't even use Avalon because he needs Saber with him, a condition which would nullify the original 1 vs 1 condition. This is getting nowhere.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:28:56 2011 No.7596964 >>7596952 What? Nero might not have understood anything, but that does not mean he did not fight Shiki seriously with all his might. I mean, he summoned phantasmal beasts and his personal killing machines then went final form on Shiki from a distance.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:28:56 2011 No.7596965

>>7596949
>Nasu is credited for writing all the original stuffs that happened in the anime.
But this is false: He explictly said that that the Archer vs Berserker scene was not like that, and that Archer was highly out of character, not being direct and down to the point enough. He did like the Kanshou Bakuya thing though, which he also did not come up with.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:29:25 2011 No.7596967 >>7596945 It's mentioned that he killed the world around her, not the connection. It's mentioned that he killed the source of her powers (which is the world itself).

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:29:56 2011 No.7596972 File: 394 KB, 1129x899, 1310246975161.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] So i got these lines and shit, what in the hell is going on here fryman?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:29:56 2011 No.7596973

>>7596946
You're not really saying anything I haven't heard in this thread. I've already explained how it doesn't negate the external factor in the way you think it does and how Shiki can't cut concepts or parallel planes, but all you're doing in every post is parroting
>MEoDP NEGATES EVERYTHING HE WANTS TO STAB BECAUSE IT'S CONNECTED TO THE ROOT

So unless you have something new, I'm going to be taking my leave now. It's been fun guys.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:30:25 2011 No.7596979

>>7596957
The greatest Noble Phantasm in existence isn't a pair of eyes that is directly connected to the Root of all things that ignores all external factors in the target being aimed at.

In some cases, MEoDP is far greater than Ea because it's more connected with everything than Ea even is.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:30:25 2011 No.7596982 >>7596964 Sakura > Gilgamesh

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:30:56 2011 No.7596976 >>7596952 I like how you conveniently skipped the part where Nero says that he'll recognize Shiki as a serious obstacle.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:30:56 2011 No.7596978 I liked the type moon thread last night with the lore, we should talk about the lore of type moon instead.

>>	「ロリあき」 Sat Jul 9 17:31:25 2011 No.7596984 >>7596972 >fryman ....

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:31:56 2011 No.7596986 >>7596946 All MEoDP does is let Shiki see death. For it to have practical effect Shiki has to attack the target. IT DOES NOT SOMEHOW LET SHIKI'S BODY BYPASS AVALON.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 17:32:26 2011 No.7596990 >>7596979 Ea is connected to the primordial creation of the Earth, a record of the world that was still in transition to being livable. So, no.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:32:26 2011 No.7596991

>>7596982
No, that's stupid. Gilgamesh basically destroyed Sakura and left bits and pieces of her. He was dominant and one false move led to his demise.

Shiki was out there for a prolonged period of time with Nero watching then throwing a series of all-powerful beasts then finally, himself. He went serious after seeing his animals die one by one. He even says so himself "Why is this human that's a nobody able to fucking kill me?"

Then he went serious and still got killed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:33:26 2011 No.7596993 >>7596946 Where does it say they are visible? In the anime, movie, and VN, usage of Avalon always emits a light that blocks the view from both perspectives. Is this you fanwanking, or do you have proof?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:33:26 2011 No.7596999 >>7596990 >Earth Older than Root? I DON'T THINK SO.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:34:26 2011 No.7597001 >>7596957 Gilgamesh wasn't using Ea's full power. And I'm sure there are more potent NPs than it. But that's another matter...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:34:58 2011 No.7597003 >>7596993 In the animated versions, you can still see their bodies.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:35:27 2011 No.7597010 YOU CANNOT ATTACK FROM AVALON WHEN YOU GET OUT FROM AVALON, SHIKI CAN KILL YOU FAST STAY IN AVALON FOREVER

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:36:27 2011 No.7597011 >>7596874

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:37:31 2011 No.7597013 >>7597011 Avalon's effect of infinite timespace is an external factor ignored by MEoDP's connection to the Root. Shiki only sees Shirou. Shirou gets stabbed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:37:31 2011 No.7597015 Are all T-M threads like this?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:37:59 2011 No.7597017 >>7597003 From a neutral perspective for the viewer's benefit!

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:38:00 2011 No.7597023

>>7597003
But you can't see through it. There's no image or anything looking in or out of Avalon, just a bright light. The implication here is that the person is inside Avalon has merged into a distorted reality.

Even if this wasn't the case (it is), Shiki wouldn't be able to stick his hand through and cut whatever's inside.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:38:27 2011 No.7597027 >>7597015 Yes every time someone start Typemoon thread, they start shitstorming Shiki vs Shirou.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:38:30 2011 No.7597019 >>7597013 So you're saying Shiki can ignore distance?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:38:30 2011 No.7597021 >>7597013 You're acting like MEoDP is some ability that makes Shiki's body itself immune to Avalon's effect. It isn't.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:39:27 2011 No.7597028 [DELETED]

>>7596976
>conveniently skipped the part where Nero says that he'll recognize Shiki as a serious obstacle.
I found this screen to be highly irrelevant as to why he lost, but sure, here. Put this in between the first and the second screen, and it should be in order.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:39:27 2011 No.7597029 >>7597015 no, the one last night >>7593446 was more about the lore.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:39:56 2011 No.7597031 >>7597013 Over here, >>7596937

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:40:26 2011 No.7597035
File: 66 KB, 1200x900, 1310247608763.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7596976
>conveniently skipped the part where Nero says that he'll recognize Shiki as a serious obstacle.
I found this screen to be highly irrelevant as to why he lost, but sure, here. Put this in between the first and the second screen, and it should be in order.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:40:26 2011 No.7597037 Saying Shiki could reach through Avalon and kill Shirou is like saying Shiki could reach through a phone's screen and kill someone through video chat.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:40:26 2011 No.7597038 >>7597019 >>7597021 That's the fucking ability of MEoDP, dammit. IGNORE ALL EXTERNAL FACTORS. Avalon being another reality doesn't hold any argument because it's still part of the Root! >>7597017 THEY'RE STILL VISIBLE AS FUCK

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:40:57 2011 No.7597039 >>7597015 Actually no. There's just one guy here who seems to think that "the ability ignores external interference" seems to mean "the owner of the ability is a juggernaut that cannot be halted by anything in the universe bar none".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:42:06 2011 No.7597046 >>7597038 It doesn't make his body immune. It lets him see death. You misunderstand. The death itself bypasses external factors. An ultimate, absolute killing. His physical self is UNAFFECTED.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:42:06 2011 No.7597047 >>7597038 >Avalon being another reality It's not "another reality", it's "another place entirely"! >THEY'RE STILL VISIBLE AS FUCK NOT CANON Just because the CAMERA can see Shirou, does not mean Gilgamesh or Kotomine could see Shirou!

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:42:06 2011 No.7597048

>>7597035
Please refer to:
>>7596991
>>7596964

The point is, Nero was more serious and well-adjusted to fight Shiki than Gilgamesh was against either Sakura or Shirou.

Shiki was fighting an army of high level monsters in front of his fucking eyes while he just watched from a distance.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:44:06 2011 No.7597056 >>7597038 So you`re saying Shiki is some sort of crazy tank that ignores all external interference just with his presence or body and can start walking through holes in space-time with no effect.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:44:06 2011 No.7597061

>>7597046
>His physical self is UNAFFECTED.
What? MEoDP does not target the user of the eyes. It targets the target of the eyes. The external factors are part of the targets defenses. That's why Arcueid said external factors. Because even if Shiki's target wore a plate of armor, a magical barrier or a simple T-shirt, it doesn't matter, he still sees his target's death over it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:44:06 2011 No.7597062 >>7597038 >>7597038 >>7597046 >>7597046 Guys, THIS is where the misunderstanding seems to lie.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:46:06 2011 No.7597069 >>7597038 >So you're saying Shiki can ignore distance? >YES Now you're just being retarded.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:46:06 2011 No.7597074

>>7597062
You missed this reply >>7597061

>>7597056
He's NOT walking through spacetime. Like the fucking anime showed, Shirou's body is still visible on the normal plane.

Shiki can reach Shirou's projection. Avalon is a mere external factor in front of the Root's MEoDP.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:47:06 2011 No.7597079 >>7597069 You missed this reply >>7597074

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:48:06 2011 No.7597086

>>7597061
... Let me explain.

Let's say the target is able to regenerate/is made out of diamond/can reincarnate. Stuff like THOSE are what is meant by "external influences." Avalon is vastly different from petty defenses like those. MEoDP doesn't make Shiki's body any different, and Avalon doesn't make Shirou's body any different. It displaces him from reality. Therefore, the nullification of external influences you're talking about applies to Shirou's physical form. But to get there, Shiki has to bypass Avalon. How does he do that? He DOESN'T. End of argument.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:48:06 2011 No.7597088 >>7597074 The anime is NOT CANON.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:49:06 2011 No.7597090 >>7597079 He posted before that one was even made! I mean what the fuck...

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:49:06 2011 No.7597095 >>7597047 >not canon That's what you want to say. But it's there. All it says in the VN is a bright light. Well it's probably just a bright light in front of them, JUST LIKE IN THE ANIME.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:50:06 2011 No.7597099 >>7597074 Even assuming he can see Shirou, SHIROU IS NOT ACTUALLY THERE. It's just an image of him. See >>7597037

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:51:06 2011 No.7597103 >>7597086 Dude, that's just cherrypicking things. Avalon IS an external influence over a target. By mere canon, MEoDP ignores that. >>7597088 Go here >>7597095

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:52:06 2011 No.7597111 >>7597099 Over here >>7597103 Avalon works like a plastic wrap. That's why that image is not in fucking Venezuela when Avalon is used and it's in Japan.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:54:19 2011 No.7597123 >>7597111 >Avalon works like a plastic wrap You can't be serious.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:55:19 2011 No.7597131 >>7597123 Well it does. It's another fucking dimension wrapping around Saber. The body is still visible in the fight, they just can't fight back but are afforded supreme defense.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:55:19 2011 No.7597132 >>7597103 Avalon doesn't affect Shirou himself. It affects his location (maybe even existence). MEoDP won't work because Shiki cannot reach him to begin with.

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 17:57:19 2011 No.7597147

"I attack Mt. Fuji!"
"Mt. Fuji is another country. Your weapon has insufficient range."
"I attack a picture of Mt. Fuji!"
"You destroy the picture of Mt. Fuji."
"Awesome, I destroyed Mt. Fuji!"
"What? No."
"Yes I did!"

Ad nauseum.

Even if there were an image to be seen, it would be a placeholder for the person that is in another place entirely. It's like saying Shiki can attack a t.v. and kill the person in it.

You're either incredibly stupid, or incredibly stupid and "trolling." Neither is a good option.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:57:19 2011 No.7597148 >>7597132 No, it does affect Shirou himself. That's why it's a single unit targeting NP.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:57:19 2011 No.7597150 I feel like I've been repeating myself for a long time now.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:57:19 2011 No.7597151

>>7597074
>Avalon is a mere external factor in front of the Root's MEoDP.
But it messes with time and space and even reality itself. He might be standing within Avalon, but it's not as if they are even there. It is a seperate world and nothing can pass through it.

Why do you take the side of the Eyes of Death Perception who can pass through any external factor rather than the side of Avalon that no external factor can pass through?
It's the irresistible force meets an immovable object, but you take the side of the irresistible force because you are a bigger fan of it. Even if there are no grounds for why it would win.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:57:19 2011 No.7597153 ITT Shiki can kill Avalon, discuss.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:57:19 2011 No.7597155 >>7597131 No. Avalon is not some barrier around them, they are physically moved somewhere else. Even assuming they're visible, they are not longer in that spot.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:58:19 2011 No.7597159

>>7597148
No, it does not affect his physical form. Shirou is still Shirou. If you were able to enter Avalon and shot him with a .45 in the head, he dies. Similarly, if you used MEoDP and stabbed his dot, he dies. But that's the thing, you can't fucking get past Avalon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 17:59:19 2011 No.7597166 >>7597153 If it were that simple, this argument would have ended long ago. The guy's saying he can physically bypass it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:00:19 2011 No.7597167

>>7597147
No, that's wrong. Again, their projections are still there. Avalon is another reality to other people. But there is NO SUCH THING AS ANOTHER ROOT.

Because the projections of their image are still there, by usiing the Root, you're STILL there. Because it doesn't matter where you are, the Root is the Root. Shiki can still see your projection and to the Root, you're still there since you're just overlapping dimensional realities. If you're just overlapping, you're still at that fucking place you disappeared from. You're still there. And you're still liable to getting your ass stabbed with MEoDP because it ignores all external factors.

Avalon IS an external factor.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:02:19 2011 No.7597178

>>7597159
>>7597155

Over here >>7597167

No MATTER what you say about transporting Shirou somewhere, Shirou is STILL in that intersection between Avalon and where he was previously. And under the Root, it does not matter if you were in another dimension, you're still in that same intersecting point, Shiki can fucking see you, Root doesn't give a shit, Shirou will get stabbed.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:03:19 2011 No.7597190
File: 168 KB, 1024x768, Hellsing.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

This thread is just becoming ridiculous. It is just like comparing to Arcuid vs Alucard and they both are not in same series. Same goes with Shiki vs Shirou they are not in same series and shouldn't do argument about that.

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 18:03:19 2011 No.7597191

>>7597167
Shiki confirmed for being able to kill people through televisions.

I assume that if he has characters in his dreams from his memories appear, killing them will kill the real person. Watch out Freddy: Shiki is here, and when HE dreams, other people die!

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:04:19 2011 No.7597192

>>7597151
That is because for one thing:

MEoDP connected to the Root
Avalon invincible due to its own reality

Root > some reality created by faeries and Saber's wishes

IF you really think that the latter is greater in precedence to something ingrained with the Root's influence, then I lose the argument. But it's NOT.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:04:19 2011 No.7597198 >>7597167 >you're STILL there For what seems like the millionth time, no you're not. Even if there's an image of them, they are not there. >>7597178 Except all that "intersection" shit is just your made up bullshit.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:05:24 2011 No.7597200

>>7597178
1. You can't get past Avalon to begin with. MEoDP will only take effect if the target's attacked using it. However, Shiki can't reach Shirou. It's useless.
2. Even if you can see them, they're not there. Once again, it's like trying to kill someone through a screen.

No matter what YOU say, it's canon. They're displaced from reality.

That's the last post I'm making about this shit. I'm done. You can think you've won if you want, I guess.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:08:24 2011 No.7597223

>>7597191
No, that is a wrong analogy, White Ren. Look here, TVs are images sent from far away to a certain area to make a projection. And by far away, it means the distance from one area to another measured by human distances.

The distance of Avalon from Earth in their interdimensional intersection is 0 in human distances (which the TV and photo and net analogy is based on) because Avalon just intersects the Earth at that exact point. Shirou is both there and not there at the same time.

Human distances provided by a webcam do not work by the same measurements because while there is a video image of one person in Japan, he's not in Japan, he's in Venezuela.

Shirou while in Avalon, is still on his position on Earth, except he's also at Avalon, by virtue of interdimensional interweaving at a single spot. So he's far away, yet he's still at the same point.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:10:24 2011 No.7597236 >>7597223 Again, this is just made up bullshit.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:10:24 2011 No.7597237

>>7597167
>Shiki can still see your projection and to the Root,
This goes back to your assumption that Shiki himself is the one that possesses powers of ignoring the universe. How many times have you made this claim, and how many times have we said you were wrong?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:10:24 2011 No.7597239 >>7597198 >>7597200 Over here >>7597223 The projection image of Shirou on Earth is not the same as a fucking webcam image aired from Colombia. Shirou becomes somewhat like an astral projection. He's there, and he's not there.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:11:24 2011 No.7597248

>>7597237
Shiki's powers has the potential to ignore the universe and every other multiverse because the fucking Root takes precedence over every reality that ever existed.

So yeah. Shiki DOES have that potential. It's the fucking description for his fucking OP ability.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:12:24 2011 No.7597252

>>7597192
This is why we go back to here, which you have conveniently ignored >>7596937.

It's been pointed out over and over, and you ignore it everytime. Your argument has devolved to
>Shiki has crazy powers that can see through alternate realities and cancel effects because of his body and he can also reverse casuality too!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:12:24 2011 No.7597254 >>7597236 It sure as heck makes more sense than shitty analogies about pictures from abroad.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:13:24 2011 No.7597256

>>7597248
See:
>>7597252
This is the LAST time I'm pointing this out. By this point, I'm convinced that you're just plain stupid AND blinded by fanboyism. No, you aren't trolling, you're just a kid that when presented with facts, ignores them unless it helps him.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:15:24 2011 No.7597260

>>7597252
Dude, why aren't you getting it? Alternate reality doesn't matter to Shiki's MEoDP. The Root takes precedence over any reality. Shirou still has his protected self on Earth. Shiki can still see him. Normal weapons can't touch Shirou, but Shiki can, because alternate realities means nothing to the Root to which Shiki is connected to.

Now, don't confuse this with Shiki being able to target Zelretch moving in and out of dimensions. Zelretch is actually moving through dimensions along with changing his actual human distance measurements. He can do that.

Avalon, as a defense ability, does not do that.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:15:24 2011 No.7597262

>>7597254
That doesn't make it any less bullshit. What we know for sure about Avalon is that it takes you from where you were and puts you somewhere else. By that definition, Shiki cannot kill Shirou. If you want to make things up about how Avalon does that in a way that would let Shiki bypass it, then go ahead. But it's still bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:16:24 2011 No.7597268 File: 5 KB, 243x190, 1308058380526.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7597260 You didn't even read the quoted post at all. Have a reaction image before I head out to dinner.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:16:24 2011 No.7597269 >>7597256 Go here >>7597260 I am NOT blinded by fanboyism. Root just takes precedence over alternate dimensions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:18:29 2011 No.7597275 >>7597268 No, you're the guy who didn't read anything. Almost every post I made countered that fucking post.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:19:29 2011 No.7597278

SHIROU'S NOT THERE. HE'S DISPLACED FROM FUCKING REALITY. I DOUBT YOU COULD SEE HIM, BUT EVEN IF YOU COULD, IT'S JUST AN IMAGE. HE ISN'T WHERE IT LOOKS LIKE HE IS. THAT'S WHAT WE MEAN BY "IT'S LIKE A TV, YOU SEE THE PERSON BUT IS HE ACTUALLY IN THE BOX? HELL NO!

MEODP DOESN'T MAKE SHIKI HIMSELF IMMUNE TO EXTERNAL INFLUENCES. IT MAKES THE DEATH HE INFLICTS IMMUNE TO EXTERNAL INFLUENCES. AS IN, HE COULD KILL SHIROU WITH ONE STAB FROM A BUTTER KNIFE EVEN IF HE WERE MADE OUT OF OSMIUM. BUT AVALON DISPLACES SHIROU FROM REALITY, AND SHIKI CAN'T GET PAST IT UNLESS HE TRIES TO KILL THE SHEATH ITSELF. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU'RE ARGUING, YOU DUMBFUCK.

All caps so that you can't ignore it.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Sat Jul 9 18:20:29 2011 No.7597280 >>7597223 Targets of the effects of Avalon aren't "there and not there," they're simply not there. They are in another place. They have spatial folded to another place. If you can't understand that, it's your fault and not mine~

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:20:29 2011 No.7597284

>>7597275
>he has to stab first for that to take effect and we all know he's not stabbing through Avalon into a reality that has no physical concept.
And you're referring to this, right? THIS has already been countered in every fucking post I made.

The reality of Avalon < The Root's perception

The image of Shirou is still on Earth, so Avalon is just like a fucking blanket on Shirou because of the MEoDP and its connection to the Root which ignores all external factors.

And I've been trying to make that damn point since that post came up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:20:29 2011 No.7597285 >>7597268 It's funny, that image is like what this guy's saying Shiki could do. Also, enjoy your meal.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:22:29 2011 No.7597289 >>7597167 >Shiki can still see your projection and to the Root Here, I will just say this. The MeoDP is not the Death Note.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:23:29 2011 No.7597299

>>7597284
Now you're blatantly saying that killing an image kills the original. I ripped up an image of Obama, he must be dead. I used a hammer on my TV, the anchorman must be dead.

And why do you keep saying Shiki himself's immune? He's not. You pretend like you're reading the posts, but you sure as hell aren't.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:24:29 2011 No.7597303

>>7597278
>>7597280
Go to >>7597260 and >>7597223

Seriously, you guys are just forcing the entire thing to go into circles. Your analogies are also failures.

Because in terms of measurements, Shirou's still in the same spot he is on Earth and on Avalon, even if dimensionally speaking, he isn't there anymore.

Alternate realities count for shit in front of the Root.

Avalon is an external factor.

Shiki's MEoDP ignores ANY and ALL external factors in the way of his target.

MEoDP's Root based origins > Avalon's alternate reality because all reality are part of the Root

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:25:29 2011 No.7597307 >>7597303 >Because in terms of measurements, Shirou's still in the same spot he is on Earth and on Avalon, even if dimensionally speaking, he isn't there anymore. MADE UP BULL SHIT

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:25:29 2011 No.7597311

>>7597299
Read >>7597303

You're confusing dimensional measurements with human measurements. You could be in the same place in terms of location while being in different dimensions. But you probably can't understand that because you keep using shitty analogies.

It's like a 10 story building. EXCEPT ALL 10 FLOORS ARE ON THE SAME FLOOR.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:26:29 2011 No.7597314 >>7597303 So if ORT was in the way of Shirou, it wouldn't matter?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:27:29 2011 No.7597319 >>7597307 Read >>7597311 That's why Shirou's image is still in the same damn place. If what you said is true, then why isn't Shirou's image in Argentina instead of Japan? That's the side you're arguing for.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:29:34 2011 No.7597327

>>7597314
No, ORT is a different case altogether. Types are beings that cannot die unless you kill their connection to their planets. Shiki has to kill the closest part of Mercury for that to happen.

Shiki has no way of getting to Mars.

Also
>It's like a 10 story building. EXCEPT ALL 10 FLOORS ARE ON THE SAME FLOOR.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:29:34 2011 No.7597329

>>7597319
You keep misunderstanding the ability. MEoDP doesn't let Shiki himself get past Avalon. It only works on the death he inflicts. Why won't you understand that? The knife thrust doesn't suddenly become unblockable. The thing that's stabbed with it dies regardless of its personal advantages. That's the power of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. It's PERCEPTION. Jesus Christ.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:30:34 2011 No.7597332 >>7597303 >Shiki's MEoDP ignores ANY and ALL external factors in the way of his target. Saber's Avalon ignores ANY and ALL external factors in between her and everything else.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:30:34 2011 No.7597333 >>7597327 Oh, and ORT is a physical presence that's actually in front of Shirou. It's not the same as an external factor like Avalon that can coat one unit.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:31:34 2011 No.7597336

>>7597319
>That's why Shirou's image is still in the same damn place.
Made up bullshit. How many times will I have to say that? Just because you say it works in a way doesn't mean it does.

Why would Shirou's image still be there? I don't know! NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS. That does not mean you can make up a reason and treat it as canon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:31:34 2011 No.7597340 >>7597332 His fundamental understanding of MEoDP is wrong. He keeps saying Shiki is immune. The death is immune to the victim's bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:32:34 2011 No.7597345 >>7597333 >Shiki's MEoDP ignores ANY and ALL external factors in the way of his target. I'm just going on what you said~

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:33:34 2011 No.7597347

>>7597332
Root > Fairy and girl made alternate universe

>>7597329
The barrier does NOT exist between Shiki's target and Shiki himself.

THAT is the reason why the death of beings can be seen overlapping through clothes, armor, skin-close barriers, etc. THAT is why it is said it ignores all external factors.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:33:34 2011 No.7597349 File: 24 KB, 492x720, 900_hours_in_paint.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Just because his eyes allow him to see the image of Shirou being protected by Avalon doesnt mean his completely human arm can reach him.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:34:34 2011 No.7597355

>>7597327
>Types are beings that cannot die unless you kill their connection to their planets.
And Avalon is an artifact that happens to be a sorcery mystery with no recorded end.
>Shiki has to kill the closest part of Mercury for that to happen.
And with Avalon he would have to jump dimensions.

He can't hit whoever is inside avalon the same way he can't look at ORT and throw his knife straight up inte the air and expecting it to kill all of Mercury.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:35:34 2011 No.7597359

>>7597349
Read >>7597347
>>It's like a 10 story building. EXCEPT ALL 10 FLOORS ARE ON THE SAME FLOOR.
>>7597345
Well obviously that only counts for external factors. NOT another huge physical body in front of the target. Avalon is NOT a huge physical body in front of the target because he literally can't see Shirou's projection due to the fact that ORT IS FUCKHUGE.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:39:34 2011 No.7597372 >>7597359 >It's like a 10 story building. EXCEPT ALL 10 FLOORS ARE ON THE SAME FLOOR. Made up bullshit. Seriously, stop it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:39:34 2011 No.7597374 Shiki can't kill things without being present, or without touching their very concept of existence. Why do you say he can kill that of which is not there, simply due to it being connected to the root?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:40:34 2011 No.7597376

>>7597355
>And Avalon is an artifact that happens to be a sorcery mystery with no recorded end.
That has no bearing on whether Shirou is killable. Shirou's fucking human. An alternate reality is NOTHING compared to the Root. And Shiki can still kill Types, mind you. He just has to sever their damn connections.

>And with Avalon he would have to jump dimensions.
DIMENSIONAL DISTANCE ISN'T THE SAME AS THE DISTANCE IN THE SAME PLANE.

AGAIN
>>It's like a 10 story building. EXCEPT ALL 10 FLOORS ARE ON THE SAME FLOOR
Shirou is ON THE FIRST FLOOR.
Shiki is ON THE SECOND FLOOR.
But all the floors are on the same fucking floor. Shirou and Shiki didn't fucking move.

THAT is what dimensional intersections are. Shirou never fucking changed distances. He's still in the same fucking place. You don't need to jump dimensions. He's still in the same fucking floor because the Root said "It's all the same shit to me"

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:40:34 2011 No.7597377

>>7597347
Ah, now I see what you're trying to say. You're saying the death of Shirou will show up past Avalon where Shiki could stab it, right?

However, you're still wrong. You're essentially saying that distance doesn't matter to Shiki. The real person has to be within Shiki's vision for him to see death. Can Shiki see the death of someone show up through a screen? Same thing. Even if he could see Shirou, the real person isn't there. Therefore, there isn't a thing he could do.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:42:39 2011 No.7597381

>>7597377
Read >>7597376
>>7597372
Asspained because you keep using the wrong analogy while I used the right one, yes I know. Now fuck off.

Dimensions don't exist 200000 miles away from another dimension. Dimensions don't work that way even in shitty science fiction. They overlap each other.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:43:39 2011 No.7597385 >>7597376 >He's still in the same fucking place Here you contradicted yourself. It's as if you are assuming them to be taking superpositions, but you have no ground for such a statement..

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:44:39 2011 No.7597388

>>7597376
Oh, I think I know what you're trying to say. Becuase Shiki can see the death of things means that he can see the death of things through dimensions.

But that's so fucking retarded, that would mean he would see death from anyone everywhere since in some dimension, someone killable should stand right in front of him.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:44:39 2011 No.7597390 >>7597385 THEY ARE SUPERPOSITIONS. SHIROU'S FUCKING IMAGE IS IN THE SAME FUCKING PLACE I'd believe you if Shirou's image was in Italy, BUT IT AIN'T.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:45:39 2011 No.7597392
File: 53 KB, 762x524, theanalogymakescompletesense.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7597381
He's not teleported to a different dimension. He's displaced from reality altogether. You keep nitpicking about that analogy and not targeting the main argument. You've lost a LONG time ago. Just stop it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:46:39 2011 No.7597393 File: 322 KB, 640x480, 1306912782414.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Can a gundam defeat shiki?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:46:39 2011 No.7597394

>>7597388
>But that's so fucking retarded, that would mean he would see death from anyone everywhere since in some dimension, someone killable should stand right in front of him.
But it's not retarded. Because the Root (which the MEoDP is connected to) is not limited to one dimension. ALL dimensions belong to the Root.

Avalon is just like putting a glass pane in front of Shiki and he's seeing someone sticking his face on that glass pane, asking to get stabbed in the dot on his face, Which Shiki can see through the glass pane.

Or plastic wrap, whichever suits you best.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:47:39 2011 No.7597396 >>7597381 If you would, please tell me where it has ever been stated (officially) that Avalon is a different dimension and not a different place.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:47:39 2011 No.7597399 >>7597392 >>>It's like a 10 story building. EXCEPT ALL 10 FLOORS ARE ON THE SAME FLOOR IF WHAT YOU SAID IS TRUE, then WHY is Shirou's projection not in the Marianas Trench instead of Japan?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:48:39 2011 No.7597405

>>7597394
Are you telling me that Shiki can see the death of some guy in another dimension just because that person is connected to the root? I... I have a loss of words.

Then why havent we as a reader been informed that he saw people trough dimensions when he walked the streets without his glasses on?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:49:39 2011 No.7597406

>>7597381
>They overlap each other.
This doesn't mean they are close. Even if they overlap, and said coordinates exists on all planes of existance, they aren't "close" due to how they are seperated.
With this line of reasoning you might as well argue that Shiki can kill things from the past/future due the many theories of non-linear concept of time and realities.
They overlap, so surely it works, right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:51:39 2011 No.7597414 >>7597399 We don;t know. Maybe it's just a fucking golf ball marker so Avalon knows where to take him back later. That doesn't mean you can make up how it works.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:51:39 2011 No.7597419

>>7597399
Why should he show up in Italy, the Mariana Trench, etc. when he doesn't exist in reality anymore? He's not teleported to a different country. It's like stepping out of reality. Christ. As for why he still shows up in Japan? Who knows? He shouldn't be visible at all.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:51:39 2011 No.7597420

ITT: One idiot trying to argue that

1] The MEoDP let Shiki automatically walk through dimensions and negate Avalon if he wants because he can apparently warp universal laws.
2] He no longer needs to stab someone to achieve the effect of negating external influences, if he wants to stab someone, everything is negated even if he didn't move.

It's a troll claiming that he's reading posts, but he's just strawmanning and avoiding the point. Why is /jp/ sinking so low and feeding trolls now?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:52:39 2011 No.7597421

>>7597396
It does not fucking matter what the fuck it is. It's a bounded field. It works the same way as a superimposed dimension. It's a place. THEY ARE ALL CONNECTED TO THE FUCKING ROOT.

And Shirou's image is STILL IN THE FUCKING SAME PLACE HE IS ON EARTH.

Again, If Avalon worked just like you're saying, then it why is the fucking image of Shirou not in Mongolia instead of Japan!?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:53:39 2011 No.7597425 >>7597420 TM-thread, lack of things to do, autism etc.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:53:39 2011 No.7597426 >>7597420 I think he's genuinely retarded. Moreover I'm extremely stubborn and can't back down from an argument where the other person is clearly wrong.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:54:44 2011 No.7597431

>>7597390
>THEY ARE SUPERPOSITIONS.
Why? Your basis being?
>I'd believe you if Shirou's image was in Italy, BUT IT AIN'T.
I am saying he would be in Avalon, like the actual place Avalon. The all so distant utopia that she yearned for, as explained in the novel itself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:54:44 2011 No.7597432 >>7597420 Also forgot to add that 3] He's claiming that people can see Shirou's image through Avalon, when this has never been shown. All we know is that from Shirou's point of view, he's still 'there', but it isn't even clear where there is.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:55:44 2011 No.7597440 >>7597421 See >>7597414

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:56:44 2011 No.7597445

>>7597420
>1] The MEoDP let Shiki automatically walk through dimensions and negate Avalon if he wants because he can apparently warp universal laws.
I never once said this. Shiki can't walk to Avalon. He can just stab Shirou's overlay projection on Earth and kill Shirou because MEoDP ignores the protection Avalon provides.
>2] He no longer needs to stab someone to achieve the effect of negating external influences, if he wants to stab someone, everything is negated even if he didn't move.
I never claimed this. Read above. Stab is still required.

DAMN, all you retards have shit reading comprehension.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:57:44 2011 No.7597449 >>>>It's like a 10 story building. EXCEPT ALL 10 FLOORS ARE ON THE SAME FLOOR THIS a thousand times. And: >>7597445 PLUS Root > some reality made by faeries and a 15 year old kinglady

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:57:44 2011 No.7597451 >>7597445 >He can just stab Shirou's overlay projection on Earth Shielded behind Avalon, right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:58:44 2011 No.7597454 >>7597445 >He can just stab Shirou's overlay projection on Earth 4] Shiki can now stab thin air and destroy concepts. He can probably also destroy the concept of him losing so he always wins in fights and Lotto 649.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:59:44 2011 No.7597456

>>7597445
First of all I'm pretty sure Avalon creates an area of effect around Shirou so Shiki can't walk to him in the first place. Refer to the picture with the TV up there. And even if there was no AoE-esque dome, how does stabbing an image kill the real thing? That's why people keep talking about televisions, you dense fucker. Does that mean he can look at the photograph of SHIKI from eight years ago, stab him and cause his death? No.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:59:44 2011 No.7597459 The problem is that you keep saying things like "dimensions" and "overlay" and "intersection" when you have no actually idea if that's how it works.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 18:59:44 2011 No.7597460

>>7597451
The overlay projection is a projection BECAUSE of Avalon, you numbskull. Shirou is basically in another reality ON THE SAME AREA ON EARTH. That's ALL that Avalon fucking does for Shirou.

And the Root's MEoDP ignores all external factors, which Avalon is considered as. It's an external factor that shields Shirou. That overlay self of Shirou is still there. In front of the Root, Avalon is just like a fucking plastic wrap you can pierce with a steak knife.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:00:44 2011 No.7597465 >>7597460 Shirou is basically in another reality ON THE SAME AREA ON EARTH. That's ALL that Avalon fucking does for Shirou. Made up bullshit #136814

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:01:44 2011 No.7597466 >>7597456 B.. b. But if the photo and SHIKI were at the same position, albeit on two different planes of existance, one being outside of reality! T.. t... Then! He would be able to do so!!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:01:44 2011 No.7597467 This thread proves why the Shikifags are the worst when it comes to powerlevel devates. They just go full retard with their fanwank.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:02:44 2011 No.7597474

>>7597460
Reality =/= dimensions. It means Shirou isn't there in ANY of the dimensions. 10 floors? If Shiki and Shirou were on the same floor until Shirou used Avalon, Shirou's not on the 1st floor, the 2nd, the 3rd, or ANY OF THEM. He's GONE. That's why the image shouldn't appear. But it does. Why? Really, who the fuck knows?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:02:44 2011 No.7597476 >>7597465 >>7597459 BUT IT'S THERE. AGAIN, IF you guys don't think it works like how I described it as, then WHY the fuck does Shirou have a fucking projection in Japan and not in Canada?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:02:44 2011 No.7597480 >>7597467 I think you're forgetting fans of Gil and Arc. >Gil can destroy entire worlds with Ea! >Arc teleported once, so she can warp reality on the level of Zeltretch!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:03:44 2011 No.7597483 >>7597460 What's your thought about >>7597405 Or can Shiki choose to just see those he wants to kill?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:05:44 2011 No.7597493

>>7597466
Refer to >>7597474
Moreover, even if they were in the same spacetime what the fuck makes you think Shiki could bypass that infinite distance? The original target must be in his vision, otherwise it won't work. If it did he could kill people who appear on TVs, magazine covers, photographs, whatever.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:06:57 2011 No.7597496

No, you fucking moron. That's not how it works. One of the 10 floors is Avalon. That's the point of that analogy, you fucking retard.

The 10 floors symbolize all the different dimensions in the building known as the ROOT.

And Avalon cannot disappear from the Root.

You fucking moron.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:06:57 2011 No.7597497

>>7597476
WE DON'T FUCKING KNOW. It might be a placeholder, an afterimage or maybe a fucking illusion for the purpose of tricking you into thinking Shiki can kill through it. There may be an image there, but that doesn't imply any of the bullshit you're spouting.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:06:57 2011 No.7597499 >>7597480 >Gil can destroy entire worlds with Ea! This always comes up. >Arc teleported once, so she can warp reality on the level of Zeltretch! I really don't remember this one.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:07:57 2011 No.7597500 >>7597476 Refer to >>7597419 Fucking retard. No one said he went to another place. Is another continent the same as OUT OF REALITY to you?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:08:52 2011 No.7597507
File: 156 KB, 800x600, 1310252897308.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7597460
>Shirou is basically in another reality ON THE SAME AREA ON EARTH. That's ALL that Avalon fucking does for Shirou.
Once again ignoring just how shirou uses Avalon.
But here
>>Avalon
"the unreachable utopia that Arthur dreamed of and was said to have gone to after her death. It is the greatest protection in the world that goes beyond defending or reflecting, completely isolating its user in another world. The scabbard dissipates into countless tiny particles in the air and immerses the user to become a "portable fortress" that shuts out all interference and allows nothing to harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon. Once in the Bounded Field of the tranquil domain of the fairies, the individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional and multiplanar contact up to the sixth. It is on the level of true magic, an actual true magic in itself, that transcends all magecraft"
>the unreachable utopia that Arthur dreamed of and was said to have gone to after her death. It is the greatest protection in the world that goes beyond defending or reflecting, completely isolating its user in another world
>completely isolating its user in another world
>that shuts out all interference and allows nothing to harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon
>that stands in the land of Avalon
>>completely isolating its user in another world
>>that stands in the land of Avalon
Land of Avalon, in another world. Alright?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:09:52 2011 No.7597513

>>7597499
>I really don't remember this one.
The more common one you see is the claim that ARc is always +1, ignoring the Earth's backup.

That one came up a year or ago on /a/ when someone was trying to prove that Arc could warp reality greater than Ryougi to prove another point that Ryougi could warp the entire universe by being connected to the route to justify Nasu saying that Arc > Ryougi.
Confused?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:10:53 2011 No.7597515

>>7597483
>Or can Shiki choose to just see those he wants to kill?
First of all, Avalon is an external factor. It is not the same as a dimension and yet it is at the same time.

In the second, in some aspects, Shiki can choose which death he wants to see. While he can see lines in almost everything, the points (death) is something he has to concentrate for and that he can choose.

Third, your example isn't the same as Avalon's overlay projection that IS an external defense factor compared to just a complete interdimensional collapse on one another.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:11:53 2011 No.7597518 >>7597507 Watch him claim that Avalon is still directly connected to the route despite it being a manifestation of Saber's ideals in a theoretical physical plane.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:12:53 2011 No.7597524 >>7597515 >It is not the same as a dimension and yet it is at the same time. Made up bullshit

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:13:21 2011 No.7597529

>>7597507
His fucking image is still there. He never went anywhere, Avalon just covered him for a bit.
>>7597500
Interdimensional intertwining. I wouldn't be arguing with you if Shirou didn't show his ENTIRE BODY in the anime while using Avalon.

DAMMIT, I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO STAY HERE ANYMORE.

You're all confusing measurements.

It's a 10 storey tall The Root building with all them Reality Floors ON THE SAME DAMN FLOOR.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:14:21 2011 No.7597531 "Can MEoDP kill/bypass Avalon" is the new "Can Shiki kill servants".

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:14:21 2011 No.7597535 File: 52 KB, 539x522, 1282328930471.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Another 200 post just from my one throwaway comment about Avalon. /jp/, I have underestimated you this day.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:15:21 2011 No.7597538 >It's a 10 storey tall The Root building with all them Reality Floors ON THE SAME DAMN FLOOR. [Citation needed]

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:15:21 2011 No.7597540

You're saying that since death can be perceived through clothes, armor, immortality, body composition, etc., the death should show up through Avalon because Shiki can see Shirou's image through it.

Shiki can't kill through an image alone. And more importantly, there shouldn't be an image to begin with because Shirou isn't there anymore. He's in Avalon, another world. We don't know why Shirou can be seen. Maybe it's a fuckup, maybe there's another reason. Shirou isn't there. Even if there was an image, which there shouldn't be, the death cannot be perceived. I don't see how this argument can keep going on.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:16:21 2011 No.7597544 >>7597531 Better yet to combine them! Like a scenario where Saber, a Servant, is using Avalon! Can Shiki kill a -Servant- in -Avalon-??

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:16:21 2011 No.7597545 >>7597535 /jp/ confirmed for most tenacious board.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:16:21 2011 No.7597546 >>7597529 Everything in this post is bullshit. Please stop making things up to support your argument. It's getting very tedious to point this out in all of your posts.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:16:21 2011 No.7597548 >>7597529 >His fucking image is still there. You've made this claim how many times? I have yet to see a single proof to back this up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:18:21 2011 No.7597552 >>7597529 >His fucking image is still there. Look mama! Why is there is a little man dancing inside that box?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:18:21 2011 No.7597554 >>7597545 In other words, autistic. >>7597529 >>7597507 >He never went anywhere, Avalon just covered him for a bit. Now you're arguing against canon. You've lost.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:18:21 2011 No.7597555 >>7597545 >/jp/ confirmed for most autistic board

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:19:21 2011 No.7597556 >>7597548 see >>7597529 >in the anime while using Avalon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:20:21 2011 No.7597563 >>7597529 >His fucking image is still there. No, it is inside Avalon, another world placed outside of reality. It's worse than if Shiki were to kill spirits placed in the throne of heroes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:20:21 2011 No.7597564 >>7597556 Except the anime never showed Shirou from Kotomine's point of view, there was just a light in that area. From Shirou's point of view, there was also nothing except a bright light.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:21:21 2011 No.7597567

>>7597556
And even if there is an image, what good does it do? Answer me that.

Many people have already told you that an image alone won't let Shiki kill the target. You want me to use the TV analogy again? Your "same spacetime different dimension" theory also doesn't work because that's canonically incorrect. You. Are. Wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:21:21 2011 No.7597569 I don't understand why you guys keep arguing powerlevels when Nasu couldn't give a shit about them and always just gives unbeatable plot-armor to whomever he likes more.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:21:21 2011 No.7597570

>>7597529
>I wouldn't be arguing with you if Shirou didn't show his ENTIRE BODY in the anime while using Avalon.
Nasu confirmed this to be inaccurate. In the exact same way in how Avalon can't reflect attacks. It's also why he explictly didn't want it to be like that in Unlimited Codes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:22:21 2011 No.7597573 >>7597564 Not that guy, I'm just pointing it out since you didnt seem to catch where he got his source-material from.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:22:21 2011 No.7597576 >>7597569 We are bored. At least I am.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:24:21 2011 No.7597581 451 posts and counting, folks.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:26:28 2011 No.7597590 File: 10 KB, 240x250, hmm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7597578 >Can Shiki kill a Servant in Avalon while having sex with Shirou? Hurr.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:26:28 2011 No.7597591 >>7597581 The power of T-M power level threads.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:28:28 2011 No.7597594 >>7597513 Actually, those points you mentioned are arguable, so you can't really put it on the same level as Ryougi and Tohnofags.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:29:28 2011 No.7597599
File: 70 KB, 600x550, shiki_pair_of_pants.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7597529
>DAMMIT, I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO STAY HERE ANYMORE.
It was fun while it lasted (not really, but no need to be an asshole), hafe fun with whatever business you have to take care of.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:29:28 2011 No.7597600 >>7597599 Your mercy is stunning.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:38:34 2011 No.7597632

>>7597594
Oh it is, trust me.

Also, I just back from my run so let me summarize this thread since the one guy being an idiot left.

>Shiki can kill Shirou because Nasu said so
But only without factoring in his brain exploding

>Nope, Shiki can activate Nanaya mode and kill Shirou before he blinks, no need to destroy NPs
But it's not fair, so Shirou should be at 100%: his UBW spamming self

This is where it all went to shit when someone brought up Avalon, to which the thread became

>Shiki can kill Shirou with Avalon because it only heals minor wounds
But Shirou can project it and lock Shiki out

>But Shiki can cut Avalon, it's just an NP
But the physical Avalon isn't there, you can't cut reality

>Nope, Shiki can see through and disregard Avalon because the MEoDP ignores external factors
Yes, but Shirou is no longer there. There's only a distorted space in where he was before, Shiki can't slice the field either

>Yes he can slice the field, the MEoDP ignores everything! He'll just go through it and stab Shirou like there's only a plastic wrap between them
That's not true, EVEN IF he can get through the field, it's not a portal. It's a literal displacement of reality that one simply cannot pass unless one is it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:39:34 2011 No.7597637
File: 194 KB, 800x600, 0087.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7597632
>Lies, Shiki can cut through it
But he can't activate it unless he does the cutting first. This isn't Gae Bolg where simply wanting to stab someone is enough to remove the field, much less him being able to see through it

>MEoDP = Root >>> Avalon
But there's nothing to cut...

>There's an image, if he can see the image he can cut the real Shirou through it
That's wrong, Shirou is not 'there' anymore.

>The anime says otherwise
The anime is inaccurate and you never actually saw Shirou's image

>Then why does the field show up where Shirou activates Avalon and not in Italy
What? He goes to a different dimension, not a portal to somewhere else on Earth

>Insert bullshit analogies about parallel planes and floors
>Repeat ad infinitum

/jp/ you suck for falling for the troll.
And me for reading through all of it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:40:34 2011 No.7597640 >>7597637 For some reason /jp/ never ignore trolls.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:41:34 2011 No.7597643 >>7597637 It was a good mental workout. And it's not like I had anything better to do anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:42:34 2011 No.7597649 >>7597637 >>7597545 >>7597554 >>7597555

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:44:34 2011 No.7597659 File: 57 KB, 320x262, zdooku.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Can a dark lord defeat shiki?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:47:34 2011 No.7597675 File: 26 KB, 400x384, AlucardOVA2_3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I have even better question, Can Shiki kill Alucard?

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:48:34 2011 No.7597687

>>7597632
>Oh it is, trust me

Please. How can you put "Arc is + 1 stronger than her opponent (even though we don't know how a large chunk of the Earth's energy would be if it's translated into power)" on the same level as "Tohno Shiki can kill dimensions and Avalon!" or "Ryougi can kill TTGL and Demonbane!"? Also it's arguable why Arc is above Ryougi, one of the reasons could quite possibly be because Ryougi's reality altering abilities don't match up to Arc's world altering ones.

Anonymous Sat Jul 9 19:50:40 2011 No.7597693

You know what this thread reminds me of?
There was a thread with Kuzuki Souichirou a year ago or so possibly, with someone who in no way could grasp the idea of enhancement magic, and why he could do the stuff he could do despite being magically enhanced.
Anyone remembers that? It went on for days I belive.

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