/jp/ - Otaku Culture

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Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:10:47 2011 No.7587048 [Reply] [Original]

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:12:15 2011 No.7587062 Definitely revoke it. Getting involved when you have no idea what you're doing is just silly.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Thu Jul 7 21:12:46 2011 No.7587060 3. Invite Kotomine out for mapo dofu.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:13:15 2011 No.7587064 I revoked the seal first time through and got pissed when the game killed me. I wanted a normal life route, Nasu.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:15:17 2011 No.7587072 Obviously, getting into a war with 6 other magicians who are going to be far more skilled than you and want you dead by any means necessary, is obviously the best choice that one could make to live a long life.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:15:47 2011 No.7587073 >>7587064 [ ] BE SMART AND SAFE [ ] CHARGE IN LIKE A RETARDED MOTHERFUCKER First choice is always death.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:22:20 2011 No.7587099 >>7587073 >Stay in hotel room with all-powerful vampire >Leave and fight hordes of monsters on your own

>>	Necrobrotent Thu Jul 7 21:26:20 2011 No.7587112 >>7587073 >>7587099 I died both times. The type moon universe would murder me.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:29:51 2011 No.7587122 >>7587072 Actually, thinking it's safe to walk in the dead of night after hearing about the war is stupid no matter what.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:30:51 2011 No.7587124 >>7587073 What about the first choice with the shrine in Fate route? Charging in like a retarded motherfucker actually leads to a bad end.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:31:51 2011 No.7587127 I have nothing to lose, might as well go out with a bang.

>>	Necrobrotent Thu Jul 7 21:32:51 2011 No.7587136 >>7587122 >Even with a murderer prowling the streets and draining people of blood I think a moonlit stroll would be a wonderful Idea. Nasu confirmed for night owl.

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:38:51 2011 No.7587151

Playing heavens feel actually , so far its better than story 1 but one the same level as story 2, the mystery is better though, i have no idea what anything is in heavens feel, unlike ubw were everybody was spoiling shit everywhere. Im gonna feel sad once i finish it, i started FSN around 2008.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:42:22 2011 No.7587163 So when is type moons next game coming out,how many more years,did he say? Do you guys think it will be translated fast? I man it doesn't seem that long.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:46:52 2011 No.7587179 >>7587163 The way things are going, expect to be waiting for a while, I'd say. Either they're being totally lazy or they're spending too much time on it, but either way I doubt it'll be soon.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:47:52 2011 No.7587185 >>7587163 >how many more years When Nasu runs out of people willing to jump through hoops to give him money for licensing fees. i.e. Check back 5 years from now.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:48:53 2011 No.7587188 I have a question, when do you see Zelretch in heavens feel?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:48:53 2011 No.7587190 I got really pissed off when I HAD to choose Protect Sakura to move on with the storyline. But the action scenes were amazing. >>7587151 Where are you in the story right now?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:51:24 2011 No.7587203 [X] Genuflect Is the only logical answer.

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 21:54:56 2011 No.7587214

>>7587190
I like Sakura, i have nothing against her and i was never with that "lolSakuraisaslutXD" nonsense, she has her reasons, she also has more depth of a character than rin or saber in my opinon. I do like all the characters equally though. Even shinji had his reasons, it was a war and he was going about it in the best way and the right way. Its just that he was fighting with kids who didn't understand war and were moralfags. if he was in a earlier war,he would of maybe had a chance and nobody would of teamed up just because of the way he was going about things .

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:01:24 2011 No.7587232 >>7587214 Hell I even like zouken, in a way i agree with him,fuck i dont want to die and if i had a chance, i would kill to live forever.

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:02:25 2011 No.7587241

>>7587214
The hatred toward Sakura is understandable.
I mean damsel in distress archetype, jealous, possessive and being a generically whiny bitch. All quality possessed by real 3D girl.
On top of that, she is the cause of many cooking scenes.
If only she had like half of Kohaku good points, she would probably trump Seiba in popularity. Her character design is actually good.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:02:55 2011 No.7587239 >>7587214 Hell I even like zouken, in a way i agree with him,fuck i dont want to die and if i had a chance, i would kill to live forever. Also don't cruse me for this but, he kind of remind me of voldemort.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:05:26 2011 No.7587262 >>7587214 Getting raped until you start enjoying it doesn't make you deep.

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:08:26 2011 No.7587277

>>7587241
but i dont mind that, the "3dness" as you say or just difference in character is nice for a change, im actually starting to get tried of watching and reading tsundere and all those cliches over and over again( besides yandere,needs to be done more), thats why i went back and started watching 1970-1990 anime when characters had more depth and weren't bound by these cliches .

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:10:56 2011 No.7587286 >>7587277 tired*

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:32:00 2011 No.7587344 >>7587262 I wasn't under the impression that she ever started enjoying it. Then again I actively ignored anything sexual, such high quality writing is simply too deep to be wasted on my simple mind.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:44:32 2011 No.7587382 Which main character does /jp/ like more shirou or shiki? I like shiki more because he felt more indepth, plus since he wears glasses i think thats a nice change of pace, most mcs dont wear glasses.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:48:02 2011 No.7587390 >>7587344 Clearly, only Nasu understands the depth of erotic mollusk similies.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:50:03 2011 No.7587397 >>7587382 It's like I'm really on /jp/ 2 years ago!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:50:03 2011 No.7587398 >>7587382 Doubt I can pick, both were great.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:53:05 2011 No.7587410 File: 74 KB, 300x300, 1310093615070.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7587382 Shiki easily. He was smooth.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 22:56:34 2011 No.7587418 File: 29 KB, 550x412, 1310093766722.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] kill the bitch to save countless of lives and become Superman or let the bitch live knowing that she might kill you when you are sleeping.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:02:06 2011 No.7587432 File: 75 KB, 480x272, Hero EMIYA.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>758741 Not quite superman, thought...

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:03:33 2011 No.7587434
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>>7587382
I like Shirou better overall, but I'd be lying if I said that Shiki wasn't more interesting to watch (?).

Also, why is Nanaya so fucking smooth and handsome? He pisses me off.

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:06:02 2011 No.7587443

>>7587418
1. Kill the girl by defying the very core values of your ideals. Proceed to decieve yourself forever, feeling empty while crying on the inside.
2. Try with all your might to save with the girl, with all likelyhood fail to protect the surrounding people, people you sworn to protect.

3. Save the girl, stop further accidents, preventing other victims. Save the world, become Superman.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:10:07 2011 No.7587459 >>7587434 when do you see him anyway, in Kagetsu Tohya? I still have to read that, does anybody have a decent and not to complex walk through for it?

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:15:06 2011 No.7587474

>>7587459
Melty Blood and Kagetsu Tohya, though I don't think the two are the same.

I'm usually against using walkthroughs for VNs, but yeah, I think you really need one for Kagetsu Tohya. http://kiserai.net/kt.html

But seriously, that took me less than 3 seconds to find. Certainly you could have done so?

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Thu Jul 7 23:16:07 2011 No.7587482 >>7587459 You see him in places where the world loses coherence and the delusion becomes apparent. Just like all the other nightmares in your head. You can also find him at night, where all the shadows meet.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:16:36 2011 No.7587477 File: 134 KB, 820x660, 1310094976184.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7587048

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:17:35 2011 No.7587484 >>7587382 Shirou.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:18:35 2011 No.7587490 >>7587474 So would you say Kagetsu Tohya is better than tuskhime? does it have a decent plot/ending per story?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:20:37 2011 No.7587502 >>7587490 Well... You can't really compare the two. Kagetsu Tohya is a different experience altogether. You also shouldn't take it too seriously. If you enjoyed Tsukihime you should check it out. That's all I can say.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:21:07 2011 No.7587506 >>7587490 its not better than tsukihime but its still good, its like bioshock 2 more of an expansion pack than a new game. Also don't forget tsukihime's plus disk.

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:23:07 2011 No.7587518

>>7587418
The choice of saving Sakura was a choice trying to save everyone, but if not possible, placing priority on those he loves.

Other than the quantity in terms of lives lost, both ends are unarguably wrong, and both ends in death where there should be none.

At that point, things had already gone past the point of no return. The ideal would be broken no matter what actions he were to take, and he could at that point in no way plausibly save everyone.

Shirou always stood close to his morals, ideals and ethics, but in this scenario, there were only unacceptable options.
With all options being equal in being unacceptable, the scenario finally introduced an element of personal preference, something that was in many ways completely void before outside of the ideal/moral code.

When he chose to save Sakura, he still hoped with all his heart that as few others as possible were to fall. But in this scenario, he didn't need to directly defy his own ideal personally, and he also didn't need to lose his loved ones. But both cases would break his ideal.
All Shirou wanted first and foremost was for no one to die, not for as few as possible to die.

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:33:05 2011 No.7587554

>>7587518
Honestly, even though the game mainly hammers home that
>HURR BEING LIKE KIRITSUGU IS WRONG

it's not entirely true either. I mean, being like Kiritsugu and killing Sakura would mean that Shirou has become disillusioned, but at least it would guarantee the safety of the world instead of trying to protect her. What if he fails? The CGs come in and half of Japan gets nuked in the process due to the fighting between them and the Shadow. Those bad ends that make up 99% of HF also indicate that Shirou managing to get a 'happy' ending in HF True is literally pure luck.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:33:35 2011 No.7587550 >>7587502 >>7587506 Alright sounds good, Also akiha is my favorite girl, dose she get a better ending or some love/her own route? Oh when dose this take place anyway,or is it in a different universe?

Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:34:36 2011 No.7587557

>>7587241
>The hatred toward Sakura is understandable.
Yeah, the T-M fanbase is pretty retarded in general (babbys first VN, etc.), so it's no surprise that lots of people hate the best girl. Doesn't make it justified, though.
Also, if anyone has a 3DPD personality, it's Rin. As Ilya says, she's oppressive, greedy and loud-mouthed.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:39:35 2011 No.7587577 >>7587554 Yeah, I agree. Isn't persisting to become a hero the logical choice to make? After all, 100 > 1. I believe it to be the lesser of two evils.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 7 23:40:35 2011 No.7587583 >>7587550 Can't tell you too much without spoiling things. Everyone gets their time in the limelight.

None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 8 07:22:14 2011 No.7589187

>>7587214
Shinji is the worst master. He has no ability but still has a ridiculously high opinion of himself and it incapable of realizing his limitations. Plus, he's a sadist that wants to make others suffer which means he orders Rider to kill e.g. Saber slowly in Fate despite that being tactically disadvantageous for her and then blames her when she predictably dies.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 07:29:17 2011 No.7589201 >>7587554 >the game mainly hammers home that >HURR BEING LIKE KIRITSUGU IS WRONG I think it mainly hammers home that Shirou trying to be Kiritsugu is wrong, not that Kiritsugu's philosophy itself is "wrong".

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 8 07:36:46 2011 No.7589224 >>7589201 And the fact that if Shirou follows Kiritsugu's footsteps he'll be miserable his whole life, just like his foster father.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 07:38:46 2011 No.7589227

>>7589201

Which is explained in Fate/Zero as being pretty wrong too.

Basically the entire point of the Fate route and the moral of the Holy Grail War is that "trying for a miracle is pointless, therefore things that can only be accomplished by miracles [e.g. dat ideal] are also pointless".

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 07:43:47 2011 No.7589233

>>7589227
>Which is explained in Fate/Zero as being pretty wrong too.
I don't know, I don't think you're supposed to think of it as "wrong" in a moral sense.
When you choose to sacrifice 1 to save 10, of course the catch is that you'll feel like shit, but you still saved 10.
I think F/Z point was that Kiritsugu couldn't go through with his own choice once the really serious shit started going down, but the choice itself is not "wrong" since how you interpret justice is ultimately up to the individual. Shirou's mistake was in taking another man's interpretation and trying to make it his own in an ideal way.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 13:06:37 2011 No.7590140

>>7589187
No, that is a normal thought,anybody could say that, if you haven't noticed he had no fucking magic,all his life he just wanted magic and to be recognized by his family, he actually planed out his shit nicely,it was the only way, he didn't go full retard and went"lolletsteamup!" because he was the only one who really saw it as a war. He had to deal with total moralfags and people who had no place in war. If it was a earlier war,no body would have a problem with what he was doing, and it would of made sense too most. He was not wrong or wasn't doing the right thing, he just had to deal with ignorant asshole noobs.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 13:11:08 2011 No.7590154

>>7589233
Fate/zero has nothing to do with fsn, its just showing you how terrible the war was in fsn. Im sure the 3rd,2nd,and 1st war were even more like a war. Fsn was just a bunch of kids and wannabes trying to play war. You had a fucking teacher with no magic at all being a master, the people in the earlier wars would go full rage if they saw that war.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 13:17:37 2011 No.7590174 >>7590154 To be fair, Kuzuki didn't summon anything or anything. Caster just picked him after she killed her previous Master. Now, Caster summoning Assassin, THAT would make everyone rage.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 8 13:21:08 2011 No.7590191 >>7590154 The first was was barely a war since the masters hardly knew what was going on. The second was probably the most destructive one since the Church actually stepped in to supervise them after that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 13:26:09 2011 No.7590232 >>7590191 Well im sure they were all mages at least, im sure it was at least more bloody than fsn.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 13:32:40 2011 No.7590259 I was wondering if tsukihime and FSN are in the same universe, why dont vampires and other creatures try to get the holy grail? Would their servants be popular demons in history or something?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 13:39:41 2011 No.7590304

>>7590259

Vampires don't bother with Japan much. Roa happened to reincarnate there, which brought Arcueid, which brought Nrvnqsr, which caused enough trouble to attract the TATARI, but that's an unimaginably rare sequence.

Information about the Heaven's Feel War is probably heavily regulated by the Association AND the Church. It may also be considered a hoax [totally justified as every war has been a catastrophe], considering that only one Association member decided to personally involve himself for the fourth war.
If it was well known and well believed, I imagine a small army of magi would've stormed the town trying to be Masters.

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Fri Jul 8 13:48:11 2011 No.7590325 >>7590304 Even Waver, who was just an apprentice knew about the Grail War. The reason you don't see more magi trying to participate is probably the fact that all but one of the Masters are likely to end up dead.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 13:51:13 2011 No.7590328

>>7590325

[But... while living these infinitely frustrating days, Waver heard a rumor.

The rumor is that the reputed Lord El-Melloi, for the sake of adding an entry to his resume which grants him vanity, has decided to join the nearby thaumaturgical competition in the far east region.

Waver began researching about the details of this 'Heaven's Feel' overnight, and was deeply mesmerized by the horrific details.

With the wish-granting "Holy Grail" that has hidden a huge amount of prana as the stake, summoning Heroic Spirits into the present world, and commanding them as familiars, initiating a death match.

Title, authority, everything loses its value; it relies purely on real skill.

It truly is a bit barbaric, but it's a simple yet fair method of judging superiority. For an unrecognized genius, this is an excellent opportunity, an idealistic stage to exhibit himself.]

He had to research it, and this was right before it even began, and only after hearing a rumor of what it even was.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 13:55:43 2011 No.7590339

>>7590259
Getting into something the Church regulates and keeps eyes on isn't smart for vampires.
And the Grail system itself is linked to the Throne of Heroes, it doesn't change according to what race the summoner is. Demons are also quite different entities in the universe.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 14:02:15 2011 No.7590358

>>7590304
Well was it ever explained why most of the creatures,demons,vampires,etc arent in japan? Your saying theres tons of them outside japan but not in japan? What happened to all the yokai in japan? aren't there also Japanese vampires? Another question, where did the creatures,demons,vampires,etc even come from? were they there before humans?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 14:11:48 2011 No.7590386

>>7590358

You realize that Japan is the place with the Nanaya clan, right?

Also, the oni blooded don't seem to take fond of vampires either.

>Another question, where did the creatures,demons,vampires,etc even come from? were they there before humans?

Depends on them. All Vampires ultimately have a common root in Brunestud of the Crimson Moon.
There are multiple sorts of "demons", Devils are made up by people's thoughts, and are frail existences that are sort of the negative of a god, existences that humans made.
Primordial demons such as Oni, however, seem to have existed before humanity. They exist apart from humans and the Phantasm races.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 14:19:48 2011 No.7590431

>>7590386
oh alright, wasn't thinking of the Nanaya clan and forgot. Also you would think a thing that grants wishes would be heard of all over he place, i guess the church has a tight hold over japan? I mean you see Kirei but you dont see anybody else from the church/Association.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 14:23:48 2011 No.7590447 Oh and which takes place first fsn or Tsukihime? just want to know how far apart shiki lived from shirou and why they weren't part of it. I mean they could most likely sense it right? If Tsukihime took place at the same time or before it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 14:32:19 2011 No.7590482 >>7590447 Nasu stated in CM3 that the end of Tsukihime is the start of Fate.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 14:32:19 2011 No.7590488 I guess I should stop fanboying solely on F/SN and get to finishing Tsukihime. Might as well.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 14:34:48 2011 No.7590498

>>7590431

It's said several times in Tsukihime that the Church's influence is hardly felt in the far east, where the oni-blooded hold most of the power.

>>7590447

Nasu flip-flops on this several times, which year they're in. The current final word has been they are both set in the year 2000, with "the end of Tsukihime being the beginning of Fate/Stay Night".

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 14:38:19 2011 No.7590516

>>7590431
>Also you would think a thing that grants wishes would be heard of all over he place

It is, at least in the right cicles. It's just that you have to jump on it really fast in order to get in. And even then, you kind of have to be "chosen" in a sense (which requires you to be a pretty decent mage) or be damned lucky. And even then, you're betting with your life. And that's assuming the grail even works right. It only worked properly once out of the 5 times they've tried to set up a grail war. And there were a shitload of false positives on the start of it. It's a safe bet that a lot of mages simply gave up on the grail. Assuming at least some of them aren't well aware of it's true nature anyway and consequently want nothing to do with it.

Aside from that, the people who started the whole grail system happen to be pretty powerful. They can definitely control the flow of information. Especially when it comes to the Eizbern clan who are pretty much spawn camping the grail constantly and even go so far as to hire mercs and breed people specifically to win.

In summary, the grail is a lot more trouble than it's worth. And there's kind of a sweet spot for how much you can know about the grail before it stops looking like it's worthwhile.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 14:47:49 2011 No.7590555

>>7590516
you know now that most of the mages living there,The mari clan is done,every other mage living there doesn't want anything to do with the grail, wouldn't that mean the higher ups would try to get the grail for themselves or maybe more people from the west will have to come to start it?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 15:10:50 2011 No.7590661

>>7590555

I doubt most of the higher ups would care that much. You can't swing a dead Len around in the nasuverse without hitting either a super powerful artifact or a person of equal power. Those higher ups involved with the grail creation? Some of the names dropped were the Aozaki family and Zelretch. I doubt either would have any interest in a useless trinket like the grail.

Which says nothing of the fact that getting the wish granted tends to cause some seriously nasty shit. Anyone powerful enough to be in control of anything has much better options than the grail war. Except the Eizbern family, but the grail (and the concept by which it functions) was always their gimmick so why change that now?

As for foreigners, that's already happening. The fourth war had mages from all over. The fifth had only 6 real masters, one of whom was definitely a foreigner (and it seems likely in my opinion that caster's original master wasn't from around there). Pretty impressive considering 3 master slots were filled by families with old ties to the grail leaving only 3 to be occupied. One of which was pretty much a guaranteed thing in Shirou's case. So yeah, the foreigners are doing a good job of filling the positions that aren't reserved or otherwise unobtainable without the right plot coupon.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 15:48:00 2011 No.7590817

>>7590661
Just how big is the Eizbern family family anyway, they live in like russia right? How are they able to keep such a control over the grail, are most of the mages in the family powerful and just haven't shown themselves? why didn't they all go to japan with Illyasviel and just rape everything and make sure they win? Wasn't everybody in the 5th war super weak by mage standards?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:06:03 2011 No.7590871

>>7590817

>Just how big is the Eizbern family family anyway, they live in like russia right?

Decently big, but they're in a bit of a decline and have been for a while. But such is the nature of all the old families. And yes, it's most likely in Russia or some similar area. Eastern Europe would also be a good guess.

>How are they able to keep such a control over the grail, are most of the mages in the family powerful and just haven't shown themselves?

Because they pretty much made it and happen to know more about it than anyone else. It is their magic after all. Doesn't hurt any that they can also physically be the grail itself and the original creator of the grail has been reincarnating herself constantly.

And they do have a lot of really powerful mages. However...

>why didn't they all go to japan with Illyasviel and just rape everything and make sure they win?

There's a very simple reason for this:

THEY'RE WHITE MAGES.

You may commence your laughter.

And because of this, they suck massive ass in an actual fight. Notice how some of the servants happen to be a good "fit" for their master? Well Berserker (the most powerful warrior) is helping the white mage loli. And this is the whole reason why they cheat so much, because they can't win in a fair fight.

>Wasn't everybody in the 5th war super weak by mage standards?

Yes, but since that whole war was pretty much a setup since before most of them were old enough to read it's not like it matters too much. And since they're all young and there's plenty of orphans, it's not like a lot of them had much training. There's plenty of potential in some, but they haven't really reached a point where it's useful. Generally speaking, the older the mage, the more powerful they are.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:09:59 2011 No.7590889 >>7590871 WHITE MAGES decided it was a good battle tactic to try to summon Satan himself?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:20:30 2011 No.7590941

>>7590871
Wait a minute, So your saying the only way to defeat or get rid of the holy grail is to defeat the Eizbern family, the holy grail might even be a powerful Eizbern mage to begin with? Also why cant the white mages just learn how to use other magic? or maybe teach thier younger children a different magic? Wait why the fuck did Eizbern want to use the holy grail anyway, also wouldn't a ton of other familys in Europe try to kill or take hold of them? If they are white mages, couldn't Zelretch just say fuck it and make them stop it? If they are such a powerful family why send in Illyasviel? Also now that i think about it.., i dont remember Illyasviel even using magic at all.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:37:03 2011 No.7591023

>>7590941

>the holy grail might even be a powerful Eizbern mage to begin with?

It was for the fourth and fifth wars, but the consciousness of the magus herself gets burnt away once enough Servants are killed.

>Also why cant the white mages just learn how to use other magic? or maybe teach thier younger children a different magic?

This is a problem of how magi families work in the Nasuverse.
Basically, they excel in one kind of magecraft only, the type that the family built their Magic Crest and personal magecraft upon. While they can be varied magi learning varied spells, only their Crest (for example Tohsaka's is specialized in Gandr curses) or their personal craft (Tohsaka's jewel magic) are basically all they get to use intimately.

>Wait why the fuck did Eizbern want to use the holy grail anyway, also wouldn't a ton of other familys in Europe try to kill or take hold of them?

It is to re-attain the Third Sorcery, "Heaven's Feel". The family used to hold the Third True Magic, but lost it. The Holy Grail War is simply the culmination of 1000 years of effort in attempt to get it back.

>If they are white mages, couldn't Zelretch just say fuck it and make them stop it?

If that old bastard gave a damn.

>If they are such a powerful family why send in Illyasviel? Also now that i think about it.., i dont remember Illyasviel even using magic at all.

She has Mystic Eyes that she used to paralyze Shirou, but other than that, all of her circuits are purely dedicated to maintaining Berserker.
Illya is just the grail they had prepared. I honestly don't think they expected to win at all.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:41:02 2011 No.7591043

>>7590889

I'm sure if asked they'd state that it seemed like a good idea at the time. I'm sure there's probably some sort of NV equivalent of Holy they could use. If nothing else, it's just a good example of how fucking desperate they happen to be.

>>7590941

>So your saying the only way to defeat or get rid of the holy grail is to defeat the Eizbern family

Not really. The grail is separate from the Eizberns. In theory, they could always make more if you destroy it, but in practice it'd prove difficult since they'd need to go crawling off to several very powerful mages (some of whom may not want a retread of this whole ordeal).

>the holy grail might even be a powerful Eizbern mage to begin with?

It always is. Every Eizbern master is the grail. They're all clones of the Eizbern who made the grail. The only exception to this is Sakura, and Ilya was evidently pissed about this whole mess. It seems likely Zouken was trying to troll the Eizberns hard by using a fairly dirty trick right back.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:42:02 2011 No.7591048

>Also why cant the white mages just learn how to use other magic? or maybe teach thier younger children a different magic?

One word: Crests. Magic is fucking hard. The only reason most mages are capable of doing it is because they've either A.) spent a shitload of time studying it or B.) they have the built-up knowledge and power of several generations grafted onto them. Simply trying to do other stuff won't immediately have effect. It can take centuries.

And then there's the whole "alignment" thing. Everybody has their own special genetic class that happens to be somewhat hereditary. Trying to use magic against what your alignment is takes a lot of work. As a somewhat poor example: Shirou can't do shit unless it involves projection of some form. He can handle the similar magic of enhancement, but if he tried to start pulling off Rin-style laser blasts he'd probably explode.

As for the children or pulling an alignment change, well there is a way. Sakura did it after all. I mean, if you want to go that route it can kind of work I guess. But oh boy, does it ever come with some fucked up baggage.

>Wait why the fuck did Eizbern want to use the holy grail anyway, also wouldn't a ton of other familys in Europe try to kill or take hold of them?

Because it happens to be a true magic. Mages hold true magic in extremely high regard. This magic happens to allow for a form of immortality and soul manipulation. Picture what Sakura did in HF, now multiply that by a million and then allow her to do things like, say, bringing Shirou back from the dead in the style of HF's True End. Complete mastery over death itself seems like a worthwhile pursuit, no?

Keeping enemies at bay happens to be pretty easy when you have a horde of undead souls protecting you, unlimited mp, the ability to fuck with souls, and assuming you die you can probably just hop to a new body.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:44:33 2011 No.7591058 File: 76 KB, 640x480, 1310157845018.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Have you read your SICP today, /jp/?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:44:33 2011 No.7591059

Damnable text limits

>If they are white mages, couldn't Zelretch just say fuck it and make them stop it?

Probably. But he was in on the whole thing. Plus he doesn't really care about much anymore. He's rather eccentric like that.

>If they are such a powerful family why send in Illyasviel?

Who better to fight the grail war than the grail itself fused with the descendant slash clone of the most powerful magi ever to come out of the Eizbern family who was groomed from birth for this war?

>Also now that i think about it.., i dont remember Illyasviel even using magic at all.

Very rarely. She did some slight healing work and a little sorcery in HF's ending. When the protagonist has a permanent Regen spell, the white mage seems less useful.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 16:45:03 2011 No.7591066 [ ] Save Sakura [ ] Beecome a Hero of Justice

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:47:03 2011 No.7591077 File: 110 KB, 850x758, 1310158064801.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:52:35 2011 No.7591098

>>7591043

>It always is. Every Eizbern master is the grail. They're all clones of the Eizbern who made the grail

Slight issue: I'm pretty sure the Grail was a literal inanimate cup the first few times, and then they decided to make a homunculus of Justica instead when they realized a flaw with it.

At least, I remember something like that... I may be mistaken.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 16:56:36 2011 No.7591116 File: 89 KB, 400x468, 1310158565996.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7591077

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 17:04:10 2011 No.7591145 >>7591098 You're probably right. Information on the earliest grail wars isn't as easy to come by, so it falls into my blind spot for the most part. It'd certainly explain why the earliest grails imploded.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 17:09:41 2011 No.7591157

>>7591048
>Shirou can't do shit unless it involves projection of some form.
But Shirou's alignment and root are both "Sword".
And the only reason he can use the RAG trio is because they're intrinsically connected, and his ability to use Gradation Air stems from UBW.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 17:14:11 2011 No.7591178 File: 330 KB, 2362x2362, 1310159687115.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7591116

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 17:17:12 2011 No.7591191

>>7591023
If they weren't meaning to win, what were they waiting for, How will they take place in the next war? will they have to send in another clone of Eizbern, you know what it just doesn't seem smart or desperate enough , if they were smart wouldn't the whole family all move to japan? I mean the other mages(even though white mages) must still be strong enough to help the master, also cant more than one family member have a servant? If there is nobody fucking left for the 6th war in japan, couldnt they just claim it and get it over with? If the holy grail is a Eizbern to begin with, dont they already have the fucking magic? wait im fucking confused now.. Why is the ritual of the holy grail in fucking japan anyway and not in their home country.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 17:19:12 2011 No.7591198 >>7591098 The lesser grail has always been a human vessel. The original source of the homunculi, Justica, was the first vessel, a sacrifice that Zouken Matou deeply regretted.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 17:23:42 2011 No.7591211

>>7591191

>If they weren't meaning to win, what were they waiting for, How will they take place in the next war?

That's what I'd think. Ilyasviel would just be the token effort they had to do for the fifth war, and they intended to gear up entirely for the sixth war.

>will they have to send in another clone of Eizbern, you know what it just doesn't seem smart or desperate enough , if they were smart wouldn't the whole family all move to japan?

That risks all of them getting blown the fuck up by one Servant with an anti-fortress NP.

>I mean the other mages(even though white mages) must still be strong enough to help the master, also cant more than one family member have a servant?

The chances of the grail choosing more of them seems unlikely.

>If there is nobody fucking left for the 6th war in japan, couldnt they just claim it and get it over with?

There has to be 7 participants for the miracle to succeed. Minimum.

>If the holy grail is a Eizbern to begin with, dont they already have the fucking magic?

They lost it.

>Why is the ritual of the holy grail in fucking japan anyway and not in their home country.

It's suitable territory. Fuyuki is powerful spiritual ground with three leylines running through it (powerful enough to sprout a fourth leyline once the Grail attracted all the energy to it).

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 17:37:12 2011 No.7591285

>>7591191

>If they weren't meaning to win, what were they waiting for,

They're meaning to win. They just can't. It's physically impossible. By the time the war ends they turn into something akin to that huge blob from Shirou's flashback or Shinji from UBW. Ilya started to change at the end of Fate. But then a second grail comes along and simplifies things.

>How will they take place in the next war? will they have to send in another clone of Eizbern,

They won't. Mission accomplished. They got what they wanted. See: HF ending. In the other endings, yeah, they probably have more homunculi lined up somewhere just waiting to be activated. Assuming the grail getting taken apart doesn't somehow move across continuities.

>you know what it just doesn't seem smart or desperate enough , if they were smart wouldn't the whole family all move to japan?

And let the whole family be killed off? Preservation is important. And we're talking about mages here. They're perfectly content to lock themselves away and let someone else do all the work. A preference for a hands-on approach in a mage is a horrible character flaw and often leads to said mage not living long. As a KnK example, look at how Touko handles herself. Sure, she could go out and do stuff. But instead she just likes to sit back and watch it happen. That's the mage mindset to a tee.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 17:38:12 2011 No.7591289

>I mean the other mages(even though white mages) must still be strong enough to help the master, also cant more than one family member have a servant?

Yes, but rules are rules and all that. They don't seem to be completely without honor. They just have a bit of a funny interpretation of things. Also, maybe they can't spare that many mages. Or they don't have the proper artifacts to summon that many. The grail does have the ability to choose its masters, after all. Could be some sort of built in failsafe. It'd explain why there's consistently mages from each of the houses tied to the original grail.

>If there is nobody fucking left for the 6th war in japan, couldnt they just claim it and get it over with?

The grail demands a sacrifice. Without that, it's nothing but a container.

>If the holy grail is a Eizbern to begin with, dont they already have the fucking magic?

They have the potential to "call it", but the actual magic is carried out by the grail itself. Think of the grail as a familiar on steroids. Just because you can summon the familiar doesn't mean you can just use the familiar's abilities yourself. Especially when said abilities tend to require an absurd amount of magical energy. Without the right equipment or support, most people can't wield it.

>Why is the ritual of the holy grail in fucking japan anyway and not in their home country.

Holy ground. You need a metric fuckton of magical power to kickstart the process. The Eizberns happened to know a family of mages that had access to an appropriate area....in Japan. So it was chosen as the location for the Grail War. The time gap between wars is just the land accumulating enough energy to reactivate the grail. Refilling the gas tank, if you will. Since the tank was still mostly full from how the last one ended, it didn't take long.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 17:48:15 2011 No.7591340 File: 11 KB, 190x194, 1310161731236.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] It's amassing how little I know about F/SN considering it's one of my favorite VN

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 18:12:22 2011 No.7591436 >>7591340 To enjoy a story does not mean you have to consort with every level of lore. Especially with pointless tomfoolery such as Nasu.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 18:26:55 2011 No.7591532 So why were rins sex scenes in UBW so misplaced.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 18:27:56 2011 No.7591542 >>7591532 Type-Moon sex is there for the sake of having sex in the game.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 18:33:22 2011 No.7591581 >>7591542 yeah but i mean it was done a bit weird, like one sex scene was used with shirou dreaming. All the others got more of a lovey dovey type sex scene.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 18:37:27 2011 No.7591608 >>7591581 That's HF, not UBW. Also the dream scene, I've heard, was there because Nasu felt sorry for the Rin fans who were disappointed by the sloppy UBW sex scene.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 18:53:56 2011 No.7591743 >>7591532 Play Yakety sax while reading the sex scenes. Itll make the experience 100% better. I guarantee it.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 18:55:56 2011 No.7591761

>>7591608

Close.

It was a sex scene that was originally going to be more romantic, and would've been the closing for UBW's True End (note the same "place" and lighting for UBW-TE's CG and those), but Nasu wisely decided that it didn't really fit, but wanted to give the fans more Rin sexings anyway, so he made a really creepy scene that nobody could enjoy instead.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 18:59:29 2011 No.7591790 >>7591761 If rin was the favorite girl, whjy did she have a shitty sex scene, Also that dream sex scene really meant nothing? I was like wtf what is a rin sex scene doing in HF and what the hell is going on.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 19:00:29 2011 No.7591805 >>7591761 Hmm, you learn something new every day.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 19:19:26 2011 No.7591978 >>7591790 > Also that dream sex scene really meant nothing? I was like wtf what is a rin sex scene doing in HF and what the hell is going on. Check Rin's eyes. It was Rider acquiring energy from Shirou through wet dreams.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 19:20:26 2011 No.7591981 >>7591790 Rider gave Shirou a sex dream while she sucked out his prana to ease the magical load (hurr) on Sakura.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 19:28:27 2011 No.7592038 >He doesn't need to ssh.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 19:38:59 2011 No.7592127 File: 175 KB, 800x1800, 1310168319840.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7591981

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 19:38:59 2011 No.7592129 Why didn't archer try to kill Shirou in Fate route?

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 19:42:29 2011 No.7592159 >>7592129 2 busy fending off Berserker

>>	Necrobrotent Fri Jul 8 19:44:00 2011 No.7592171 >>7592129 He was too busy making tea for rin.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 19:46:59 2011 No.7592186 >>7591790 You are forgetting about the threesome in Fate, so she technically is involved in all three of the routes.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:00:02 2011 No.7592275 >>7592127 So Sakura really is a slut. Nothing new.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:06:34 2011 No.7592296 File: 100 KB, 762x524, 1310169962137.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7592275 She's a little bitch, that's what she is. Purity comes second. Her personality is what really puts me off.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:07:34 2011 No.7592306

>>7587577
>Isn't persisting to become a hero the logical choice to make?
"Hero" is in many ways something that needs to be defined. One can also ask the question of whether or not the end justifies the means. Failing to save people isn't heroic, but in what way is giving up on a life heroic? Doing such a thing might in the end give you the title of a hero by the surrounding people, but could it really be considered truly heroic?

>After all, 100 > 1.
To meassure lives against eachother is in practically all cases, a moral danger zone. Such things can't easily be said, one could say that numbers means everything, but peoples' lives are for most part worth what can't exactly be measures in numbers.

>I believe it to be the lesser of two evils.
Evil is very much so something that needs to be defined. As is "right" or "wrong".
Archer/Shirou would have chosen to give up and sacrifice Sakura, most of all, out of fear for not being able to carry on with the ideal, in order to protect people. But by doing it that way, they were to go against a core aspect of themselves, and practically kill a part of themselves, disposing of a life that should have been saved.
A compromise of the ideal, in hope of never having to do so ever again, in hope of being able to carry on ideal. But it doesn't change the fact how that act went fully against the ideal to begin with.
Neither Shirou nor Archer were ever built for making sacrifices, they really do seem to be far from cut for it.

In HF though, Shirou in a sense got the concept of preference, something he due to his person, never had much of in most other cases.
With all options being unacceptable, the question of what end, he, personally might prefer, as wrong as it might be to chose something unacceptable over somerhing other unacceptable.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:08:04 2011 No.7592320

>>7592306
One way to see it is basically that Shirou did, what Archer likely was too afraid of doing, in fear of losing the ability to carry on the ideal. But in fear of losing that ability, he went against it, as he was incapable of saving everyone.
Likewise, Shirou too was incapable of saving everyone, but can you really deem the guy who was never cut out to sacrifice a life, being stubborn in not going against his ideal even when having struck the gound, evil, or wrong?

Even when chosing to not save Sakura, he didn't exactly give up on the others, he merely gave up on the only option at the time within the capability of his powers he had, which is merely the result of not being able to give up on Sakura either. He still yearned with all of his heart for everyone to be saved, but in the end chose to try to do whatever in his might, to save what he can without giving up on anyone, despite being too powerless to save everyone.

But is it really that easy to brand any of it "wrong"? It's essentially a huge gray mess.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:25:41 2011 No.7592383

>>7592306
That's right. Morality isn't mathematics; there is no defined set of rules, and even if there were, I certainly don't know of it. Is there even such a thing as right and wrong? Aren't these all subjective? One could argue that, but it'd certainly get nowhere in the long run. However, I believe that there are shared beliefs that most people agree upon.

Shirou's ideal is to have EVERYONE happy. But the situation that he faced as he pondered his dilemma in the park was not one that allowed for such a happy ending. Sakura or many more strangers? It's an either or question. Certainly, Shirou's preferences begin to sprout forth. But does the fact that Sakura means more to Shirou as a person justify his saving her over many others? No, I don't think so. Also, it is also questionable whether or not the value of a life can be increased by the achievements of the person whom said life belongs to. But that's another matter altogether; furthermore when there are just so many more people that are on the line, I think the answer is clear. Yes, if I were in the same position I'd be extremely hesitant as well. Even though I say the answer is clear, it is no easy matter to take the life of someone you love. But in the end, I think I'd harden my resolve and sacrifice one to save many. Both are unacceptable, but one is preferable.

I'm just arguing for myself here, for what I think is the logical choice to make. If this all sounds like bullshit to you I apologize in advance.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:27:08 2011 No.7592393 >>7592383 sounds right to me

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:32:54 2011 No.7592412 >>7592383 Why choose what you don't want to do over what you want to do? Why should the irrelevant numbers have anything to do with it?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:34:08 2011 No.7592419

>>7592412
Different measures of morality for different folks.

For me, I just wouldn't be able to live with the guilt of not having tried my best for all those other people. How could I explain to a child that his or her parent is dead because I wasn't banging them?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:36:08 2011 No.7592426 >>7592412 Those numbers have everything to do with it. What I want to do isn't the same as what I should do. I've lived my life according to the latter, and that's something I don't think will change.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:36:08 2011 No.7592427 >>7592419 Simple. You don't.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:38:08 2011 No.7592433 >>7592427 That really wouldn't make any difference.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:39:08 2011 No.7592440

I got a question, how dose magic die out in a family? How did shinji wind up with no magic? Also was shirou just a normal human but becayse of the hrash training made a circuit? was it ever explained were shirou came from and who his parents were? Why couldnt shinji just make a magic circuit like shirou? I kind of understood and felt for shinji by the time HF, he fucking was lied to by his own father and family and nobody gave a shit about him from the moment he was born. They could of at least helped him get a magic circuit. he wasn't lazy either in HF he said he read every book and remembered tons of info and spells. I would be butt mad if i was shinji, if his family just fucking helped him maybe he could of got a good start on getting a magic circuit.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Fri Jul 8 20:41:39 2011 No.7592442 >>7592412 That's in a way like asking someone why they exercise when it's troublesome to do so.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 20:42:09 2011 No.7592448 >>7592440 Generations of copulating with Japanese people eventually thinned out the Makiri Blood. This is why Nanaya Shiki was a product of incest

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:46:39 2011 No.7592457 >>7592448 Shit, why am I still here in this thread? I need to finish Ciel's route.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:48:09 2011 No.7592463 >>7592442 No, the difference is that there's no consequence to you.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 20:49:39 2011 No.7592464 Kiritsugu wanted Shirou to live a happy and unmagical life. Thats why he didnt train his magical abilities

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:50:39 2011 No.7592468

>>7592448
Why did they do that though knowing it would happen? why not have sex with a women form another mage family? why didn't the mari family just ask for a older mage of the opposite sex instead of sakura? why didnt they do that a while ago before shinji was born?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:51:39 2011 No.7592471 >>7592468 Cause Tohsaka family got all the hot bitches

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Fri Jul 8 20:51:39 2011 No.7592472 >>7592463 Consequences aren't always physical.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:53:10 2011 No.7592476

>>7592464

That, and Kiritsugu didn't seem to understand Shirou's abilities.

In fact, nobody really did until Tohsaka realized exactly WHAT he was doing with his freakish Projection.

Remember that most magi disregard Gradation Air as a viable spell, since to a normal magus it is disgustingly wasteful and ephemeral to the point of uselessness.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:54:42 2011 No.7592479

>>7592464
then why did he show him how to make magic circuits? Also was that training so rare that shinji or the mari family couldn't of know about it? My main question is if shirou was a normal human before training,why couldn't they train shinji in the same way? Was it ever stated where shirou came from or what family oustside of fsn?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:55:12 2011 No.7592482 >>7592471 yeah but then why didnt they just ask for a older women at the time, to save the blood quickly? why would shinjis father mate with a human anyway?

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 20:55:12 2011 No.7592483 >>7592468 Zouken wanted Sakura because the was A grade magus. He pretty much admit that his bloodline was going downhill the moment they moved to Japan

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:55:43 2011 No.7592481 >>7592476 what was that scene where tohsaka was all freaked out (?) about the things in the shed about anyway? i never really understood, what was the problem

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:56:43 2011 No.7592486 >>7592472 If that's the case, then clearly you want to save more than save one, in which case there's no reason not to kill the girl.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:56:43 2011 No.7592488 >>7592464 Kiritsugu was basically in no position to be teaching anyone any magic after the 4th war being basically unable to use thaumaturgy anymore himself, but lolretcons.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:57:12 2011 No.7592492

>>7592479

Shirou's lineage is totally unknown. He has a wealth of 27 magic circuits, but how or why is unknown.

And the method to make an artificial circuit out of one's nervous system is both
1. temporary, it does not give you a permanent circuit
2. painful and stressing, requiring extreme concentration
and 3. highly damaging if you get it wrong

No magi even bother with it unless they really need to use a circuit of a type they do not have. No magi at all would rely on one in a combat situation.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 20:57:12 2011 No.7592495 >>7592476 She wasn't even in the same ballpark though. She thought he was doing some weird shit involving a decayed Denial of Nothingness, not Gradation Air + Reality Marble.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 20:58:12 2011 No.7592496 I dont think Kiritsugu could even teach Shirou because he was suffering from Grail AIDS

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 20:59:43 2011 No.7592501 >He has a wealth of 27 magic circuits That's only archer

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:00:12 2011 No.7592502 >>7592501 But that's wrong.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:00:16 2011 No.7592509 >>7592483 Wait so was it going down because they were having sex with normal humans or because of something else?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:01:12 2011 No.7592511 >>7592509 They were just incompatible with the land. Thaumaturgy and people are closely tied with the land they're on.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Fri Jul 8 21:01:12 2011 No.7592513 >>7592486 Obviously. That was the premise I was trying to support from the beginning.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:02:12 2011 No.7592517 >>7592471 Where is Tohsakas family during everything anyway.

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Fri Jul 8 21:02:12 2011 No.7592518 >>7592513 >>7592442 >>7592472 Like these. I most certainly didn't make these posts, but they're somewhat interesting, so I'd take credit for them.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 21:05:12 2011 No.7592529 >>7592517 Tohsaka family participated in all grail wars. Actually, they were one of the 3 families that planned the Holy Grail Ritual before it become a "war"

>>	White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Fri Jul 8 21:05:41 2011 No.7592526 >>7592518 Aah, I've been caught~

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:08:43 2011 No.7592538

>>>7591098
>I'm pretty sure the Grail was a literal inanimate cup the first few times, and then they decided to make a homunculus of Justica instead when they realized a flaw with it.
Time for a little TM history lesson.

The whole "grail war/heavens feel" thing basically have its roots back with the Einzberns. The grail, is in essence, and always was, their thing anyway.
As for the actual grail itself? That's a whole other thing altogether. But they might have had a hard time coming up with a proper name for this thing powers unimaginable, other than what is in their world practically the most powerful relic ever.

The grail of the grail-wars/heavens feel, isn't the actual grail, it never was even in the beginning.
This grail is basically the embodiment and system of the Einzbern family's Sorcery Trait; Wish Granting.
>Wish-Granting
"– Spellcasting without possessing the knowledge of the spell itself; to skip the thaumaturgical process altogether and recreate miracles just through the use of prana. Still bound to the limitations of the Magic Circuits. "
This is the Einzberns' power, and what they used to be able to do. And with it, they mastered the third sorcery, among other things.

The whole grail idea, is the result of their efforts to regain this capability.
The Einzberns made the actual grail, and modelled it after their sorcery trait. The idea of the grail is basically to get around the limitations of their sorcery trait, that is limited by "bandwidth" and "resources", and with this regain their now long lost power.
But when they finally realized that they couldn't do it alone, they took the help of the Makiri family, who made the Command Spells, and the Tohsaka family who made the system summoning the Servants who were to fuel the grail with the necessary energy needed to break the fourth wall necessary in order for it to fuel itself, and provided a spiritually rich land

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:09:13 2011 No.7592542

>>7592538
The first war was sudden, and blatant failure. They initiated the ritual, and they didn't have enough enough power.
This forced them (and the Einzberns who initially didn't want to share this with anyone) to include a select few further third parties, such as the Mage Association and even complete outsiders, inviting them with an invitation of a chance to gain/win the "Holy Grail", and who wouldn't want such an artifact?

The second "Grail War" was much bigger, and bloodier, but presumebly, it failed and no one gained the grail.
The third war, with their experience of the war before it, the original three families who actually knew the inner workings of the war, started to cheat. The Einzberns summoned Avenger, which ended up being a terrible mistake, managed to corrupt the grail.
In the fourth war (Fate/Zero) it became all the more apparent how much this corruption had affected their little project, and in the end this war too, failed to complete their lost power.
And in the fifth war, people (with knowledge of the war's true nature) have already started to think of alternate uses of the war, which have affected their goals/pursuits to some extents. Hence why Kirei doesn't merely kill off everyone with Lancer/Gilgamesh at the very beginning of everything winning. Also the reason why Zouken doesn't even lift a finger in most of the scenarios.
Zouken, Kirei, and Archer, all knew the true nature of the war, and while these three had the best odds of winning, none of them wanted to win, normally, due to this knowledge. Oh, and Iliya, who to be honest also stood a good chance, but all in all, being what she is, and with the inclusion of Emiya, her being a construct/grail vessel and others who knows of her powers/situation, she is in a rather pushed situation, as all the Einzberns seems to be in regards to their grail.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 21:09:13 2011 No.7592544 The so called "Grail" is a gate that leads to an Infinite amount of Prana which makes anything possible. And the "anything possible" is the wish itself Heaven's Feel is a different thing though,

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:10:14 2011 No.7592548

>>7592538
>>7592542
But the Einzberns do consider the grail theirs, because for most part, it basically is theirs. They got the idea, they built the prototype, its based on their sorcery, and the core of the grail is even their old family's head. From their perspective, the others have merely been invited because of sheer necessity, and despite their contribution to this project, they don't exactly consider the grail theirs. In a way, you could say that the Einzberns are the founders of, and the majority "stock holders" of the "grail project 'company' ".

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:15:16 2011 No.7592562 >>7592538 You know, I was referring to the Lesser Grail with the whole "cup" thing. The conduit that links to the Greater Grail to grant a wish, that is.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:16:16 2011 No.7592565 >>7592548 I see. That's interesting. But I can say this much for sure: T-M is fucking convoluted.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:18:45 2011 No.7592569 >>7592544 What is prana again? I forgot, also if the grail is a mage, why doesn't it try to take over the world or something, is it considered one of the most powerful things in the world?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:19:45 2011 No.7592573

>>7592479
>My main question is if shirou was a normal human before training,why couldn't they train shinji in the same way?
1. He more so than likely wouldn't be able to. That shirou survived was a wonder in itself, but the much so weaker in both mind/body/magical potential that would be Shinji, more so than likely would be even less fit for it.
2. Whether or not the circuits are long term or not are disputable. But certainly not an argument suitable here because it tends to go around in circle of people quoting stuff and without sucessfully convincing eachother.
3. Even if they are long term, they are supposedly shit. Circuits aren't all about numbers. Aoko for instance, only have one, but it might very well be the best circuit in magi history, so she does fine.
But a magi family most likely don't care for shit quality circuits like this, especially a prestiged family such as them.

So the long answer short.
It would most likely kill them. It may very well be futile due to being temporary. Even if not, magi don't want circuits of such low quality.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:19:45 2011 No.7592576

>>7592569

>What is prana again?

If you read Mirror-Moon's translation of Fate/Stay Night, "prana" is the term whenever they use the phrase "magical energy".

Prana is the fuel of all magic, and it comes in the form of mana (prana of the external world) and od (prana of the internal worlds).

Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 21:21:15 2011 No.7592580

>>7592569
Prana = Mana(Humans) + Od(Environment)

Basically all magic power

>also if the grail is a mage, why doesn't it try to take over the world or something

Ilya was literally in a comatose state when she became the grail

Sakura on the other hand almost destroyed the world with Avenger

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:23:46 2011 No.7592588 >>7592580 >>7592576 Why are you guys saying the opposite?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:24:17 2011 No.7592595

>>7592580

>Ilya was literally in a comatose state when she became the grail

Speaking of this, it is unknown how Justica von Einsbern spends her time. If she is conscious and operating the Great Grail at all hours, or is unconscious and only operating as the core circuit like Illya was for the Lesser Grail.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:25:48 2011 No.7592604

>>7592588

Freezing-kun is mistaken.
Mana is repeatedly said to be the prana of the air and earth and water around you, while od is the prana within you. It most comes into play in HF's climax, where Rin was able to abuse the property of the Gem Sword to take in the mana of the cave over and over and over, despite having no od to wield.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:26:47 2011 No.7592606 >>7592595 >or is unconscious and only operating as the core circuit like Illya was for the Lesser Grail. Most likely this. Hence why Zouken seems to regard her as "dead".

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 21:28:48 2011 No.7592621 oh thanks for the correction ~

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:28:48 2011 No.7592623

>>7592595
Justicia is a shut-in who tricked all three founding families in order to get herself a room where she can stay forever, all she does now is playing otome games she downloads at infinite speed thanks to the wish engine of the Grail. Servant souls are used as energy source to keep her hardware running.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:34:20 2011 No.7592642 >>7592623 Now that was a much more pleasant view of things. And makes Justicia sound somewhat adorable in some regards, if you take all the unnecessary bloodshed as an unwanted mistake.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 21:36:20 2011 No.7592646 >>7592623 >Servant souls are used as energy source to keep her hardware running. poor Archer...

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:36:50 2011 No.7592644

>>7592623
So do we ever see Justicia? what was she like and if she became the grail, why didnt see just grant the wish to the Einzberns? Also how are the Einzberns even gonna do another war without Zouken and Tohsaka family? Also how did the Einzberns lose there wish granting power to begin with? did they just wake up one day and they found out they couldn't use it?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:37:49 2011 No.7592650

>>7592642
Obviously Anon, the command seals she give to people are something she believes due to thaumaturgical brain washing will give others the opportunity to become like her. So she give them out to people who happen to catch her fancy, or who have interests like hers.
I mean, Bazzett? Totally the same type of interests as her.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:40:20 2011 No.7592655 What the fuck is heavens feel and what is the difference between it and the holy grail, also why did avenger corrupt the grail and why is it never used again.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:43:51 2011 No.7592667 >>7590140 Kiritsugu performed inception on Shirou and gave him his dream. Each of the routes in FS/N are going one level deeper into Shirou's subconscious, until he ultimately destroys the weed in his mind. Discuss.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:44:22 2011 No.7592677

>>7592655

>What the fuck is heavens feel and what is the difference between it and the holy grail,

Heaven's Feel is the Third Sorcery, the Cup of Heaven, the ability to fuck with souls, including but not limited to the revival of the dead.
The Holy Grail is an artifact of Christian lore blah blah blah, in this context, it refers to the Great Grail and Lesser Grail circuits, which are designed to create RIDICULOUS amounts of prana and be a conduit for them, respectively.

>also why did avenger corrupt the grail and why is it never used again.

Because the Grail can only grant one wish. It makes a gargantuan amount of colorless magical energy. When a single drop of color enters the grail, the entire mass of power is converted.
Avenger's very existence is a wish for Angra Mainyu to be real. When his soul entered the Grail, it was perpetually stained the darkest black.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:46:21 2011 No.7592690

>>7592644
>Also how did the Einzberns lose there wish granting power to begin with? did they just wake up one day and they found out they couldn't use it?
I don't think we can really say.
But it is greatly implied/possibly outright stated, that the Einzbern family have grave trouble with keeping their generations of homunculi in as good condition as they used to be made.

I guess you could throw it off as how homunculi come with many complications in itself, and to be able to do homunculi at the grade the Einzberns makes themselves is practically unheard disregarding the Einzberns themselves, or soemthing like that.
I suppose they need great power in order to make great homunculi. One could assume they merely lost the necessary power needed to maintain their own current conditions required for utalizing their unique abilities. It might have caught them off guard and no matter the case we can't really know.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:47:21 2011 No.7592691 >>7592677 Sorry but what is Avengers class and Angra Mainyu considered in real lore? like what is Angra Mainyu.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:47:21 2011 No.7592693

>>7592655
Heaven's Feel is the name of the whole ritual.
Avenger tainted the grail by the very nature of his existence.
Avenger was nothing more than pure evil. And as he was a human, not a god or what have you, after getting axed and absorbed by the grail, the grail was first tainted by his soul, and secondly, granted him a wish of sorts.
If I remember right.

Grail is never used again because it's either destroyed at the end because cave in, Tohsaka and mother fucking Waver Velvet go and blow it up, and finally, in some sort of bizarre causality where neither of those happen, Kiritsugu had planted a trap to destroy the greater grail 30-40 years after the 4th grail war.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:48:21 2011 No.7592706 >>7592691 The very name itself basically means "All evils".

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:48:51 2011 No.7592701 >>7592691 Avenger is the class for true anti-heroes. Though, Angra Mainyu was the only true one we know of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angra_Mainyu

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:53:22 2011 No.7592728 >>7592693 Why would the Einzberns want a hero thats not a god? what was the point in picking Avenger in the first place? Also about >>7592690 homunculi? why did they need homunculi again?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:55:23 2011 No.7592739 >>7592728 >Why would the Einzberns want a hero thats not a god? what was the point in picking Avenger in the first place? You would think something called "All the Evil of the World" would be pretty fucking strong, right?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:56:53 2011 No.7592746

>>7592693
>If I remember right.
As mentioned in >>7592677 Avenger wasn't, in a sense, pure evil himself, as he wasn't actually the real "Angra Mainyu".
But the people of that time/place wished him to be just that.

What basically happened was that the Einzberns got fooled.
What they possibly wanted was to summon the most powerful spirit, control it with the commandspell and their own innate incredible energy, and win the war with no chances of loss.

But Avenger, not actually being Angra Mainyu, was supposedly incredibly weak, closer to a human than a Servant/Ghost Liner class spirit. So the Einzberns lost brutally.

But when Avenger died/got absorbed by the grail, he still carried with him the wish of the people who placed Avenger as the scapegoat to be the actual Angra Mainyu. The core of this Avenger was basically their wish, and could in a sense I guess be considered this version of Avenger's one and only actual Noble Phantasm, a wish, of all evils.
But a wish isn't exactly enough to win the war if it can't be granted, hence the whole dilemma of the war to begin with. So Avenger didn't do much more use than anyone else.
Upon death the wish inside him was still recognized by the grail though, and was granted prematurely, made him Angra Mainyu and tainted their grail with pure evil.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:58:23 2011 No.7592758 >>7592746 Yeah, I remember all of that, could have phrased it a bit better.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:58:53 2011 No.7592756 >>7592728 Einzberns thought he was one, they were in for a nasty surprise. They need homuculi to materialize the Grail and work the Third Magic, normal humans apparently turn to gold when trying to pull it off the Einzbern way.

Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 21:59:52 2011 No.7592763

The einzbern's wanted to summon a hero that was strong as 6 billion people's curses, turned out that hero was just a human(angra mainyu). He died pretty early, turned into a wish and got sucked into grail BAAAAM the grail became an instrument of destruction thanks to those 6 billion curses

Angra Mainyu is considered a "Hero" because he excused every person's sins

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 21:59:52 2011 No.7592764

>>7592728
>Also about >>7592690 homunculi? why did they need homunculi again?
Well, they don't exactly have much of a choice.
All of the Einzbern family, is in fact, homunculi.
Their lineage started somehow with a homunculi with gained independence who somehow managed to create an incredibly great and powerful magi lineage.
Whether or not they now have the knowledge/power to create actual/functional reproductive systems is not certains. But even if they could, its not sure whether or not they would want that as opposed to making themselves the "old fashioned way".

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Fri Jul 8 22:01:23 2011 No.7592773

>>7592746
Avenger wasn't even evil. He was just a smarmy asshole. The Avenger wraiths that became wolves after the end of a cycle were just manifestations.

Avenger was just some poor negro that got sacrificed as "all evils of the world" by a village, in order to fulfill a ritual. He doesn't even care about it all by the time he's mistakenly summoned.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:04:52 2011 No.7592789

>>7592773
>Avenger was just some poor negro that got sacrificed as "all evils of the world" by a village, in order to fulfill a ritual. He doesn't even care about it all by the time he's mistakenly summoned

Avenger always has been and always will be the most moe type moon.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 22:07:23 2011 No.7592798 >>7592773 >Avenger was just some poor negro I see. FSN in general is about Racism

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:08:54 2011 No.7592802

>>7592764
wait so they are a family of fake humans? how did they get magic and how do they continue the family if they cant have sex? dose that mean llya is also not real? Or im a understanding this all wrong. Who made the first Einzbern homunculi? how the fuck do you make one? how long do they live?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:10:23 2011 No.7592808 >>7592746 >Upon death the wish inside him was still recognized by the grail though, and was granted prematurely I don't understand this. How can it even be granted?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:11:55 2011 No.7592812

>>7592773
Wait what was Avengers real name anyway and what is his story? He was some African man who was like jesus and was sacrificed for sins? how can he be evil anyway? and if he wasnt the real avenger,who is?
>>7592808
I was thinking this also, how could his wish be granted if he didnt win.

Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 22:12:55 2011 No.7592815

>>7592802
Einzbern is a family of humans. It's just that they had to make test tube babies because they had far more magic potential than humans.

Justizia was the first Homunculus

>how the fuck do you make one?

MAGIC

>how long do they live?

Ilya's mom lived pretty long

But Ilya herself hinted that she will die within the next year(thats why she is still sad even if Shirou wanted to quit the Grail war with her.)

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:13:55 2011 No.7592822

>>7592802
>How did they get magic and how do they continue the family if they cant have sex?
They make more homunculi and implant their magic crest on them. You don't need blood ties to inherit magic, it just makes it easier because you have higher compability when you're related to the donor.

>Does that mean llya is also not real?
Yes, she's not a normal child, she was constructed used Kiritsugu's sperm.

>Who made the first Einzbern homunculi?
A wizard.

>How the fuck do you make one?
Mix the sperm of a hanged man with mandragora during the first day of the March lunar cycle, put in a pot, wait for a month.

>How long do they live?
Depends, Grail core homunculi like Irisviel and Ilya don't live long but the family head is several hundred years old.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:13:55 2011 No.7592827 What I'm interested in is, where in hell are you people getting all this information?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:16:55 2011 No.7592844 >>7592827 Half of it is fanwank, the other half is from BL and their constant trawling of everything related to TM.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:17:25 2011 No.7592847

>>7592815
>>7592822
Wait how can they be a family of humans if the first Einzbern was a homunculi, unless that homunculi could have sex. your saying two different things, one your saying they are humans but they cant have sex? do they mass produce themselves? or are their humans AND homunculi somehow in the family.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:20:26 2011 No.7592863 >>7592822 Why did Kiritsugu give them his sperm? I always thought he had sex with llyas mother but now with this homunculi stuff im confused.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:22:26 2011 No.7592871 So there is no sex at all in the Einzbern family at all? they are just clones of one another?

White Ren !YLuFFdRcFQ Fri Jul 8 22:23:25 2011 No.7592876

>>7592812
He was an anti-Jesus: they randomly decided that he, a poor, innocent schmuck, should be declared the bearer of all evil in this world, and then be tortured extensively and killed. They believed that by doing this, they would rid the world of evil. It didn't work.

However, his "sacrifice" was viewed as beneficial to everyone, helping a lot of people by easing their terror of the evil around them. He became an anti-hero, like EMIYA: reviled in life, but his actions remembered in death.

The Avenger class is just made up, a bugged class that he fills. He was summoned into the third war as a useless shadow, with no skills, using a book. They were trying to summon the god of evil, which is impossible, since you can't call truly divine entities into the grail war. They got him, instead, and he promptly died.

All the hatred that accompanied him as an anti-hero clogged up the greater grail, completely fucking up the whole experience in the fourth and fifth grail wars, allowing evil heroes to be called out, and wraiths like Kojiro to be given form.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 22:27:26 2011 No.7592895 Most of the Einzbern family is human. Jubstacheit von Einzbern lived long not because he was a homunculus, it's because of lol MAGIC

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:30:28 2011 No.7592907

>>7592812
Once upon a time, a village was asked a question - would you subject a single person to eternal torment for an eternity of bliss of the rest?

"Sure!" said the village. "Why haven't we thought of this before?" Then they got a single person and subjected him to eternal torment so that the rest of them can live happily. Avenger is that person.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:30:57 2011 No.7592910 >>7592895 Then why did they say the first Einzbern was a homunculi? you guys are confusing me man.. >>7592876 Did they say what the book did or who killed him?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:31:57 2011 No.7592916 >>7592907 So hes not a famous person with a real name like all the others? hes just Anonymous?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:33:58 2011 No.7592929 >>7592910 >Did they say what the book did or who killed him? Avesta, holy scripture from Zoroastrianism. He was killed and torn apart by his entire village, including his father.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 22:33:58 2011 No.7592931 The first Einzbern to "become" a Grail was a Homunculi. It's not a family composed of homunculi, rather ; a family that creates them

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:34:57 2011 No.7592936 Avenger no longer has a name because his was erased from the Avesta, was it? The book that's supposed to record everything and all that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:35:58 2011 No.7592941 >>7592931 oh alright, that confused me. How do the Homunculi even see the Einzberns? how are they treated? is there like half of the family are Homunculi and the other the mages?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:35:58 2011 No.7592942

>>7592895
>not because he was a homunculus
Are you sure? Well, I suppose it seems plausible, I just never found anything to assume it.

Iliya, Iris, Leysritt, Sella, Justicia were all homunculi. And wasn't Justicia also top of the family for that generation?
And I mean, they have been described as highly weird and different compared to other magi, but I guess them being on a whole other level of magical potent humans could be the reason for this as well.
But coupled with Justicia, them all being weird, and Jubstacheit being centuries old, I just assumed he and the others were homunculi tool.

But now that I think about this, the Einzberns being humans, who are great at making homunculi might be maing a bit more sense. Also solves the question of who started making them.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 22:35:58 2011 No.7592945 I thought avenger was left to rot at a mountaintop with one of his eyes permanently open.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:36:27 2011 No.7592951

>>7592916
Yeah, basically a bunch of people thought "Let's pile all our sins on this one guy, it'll be great because no matter how much we sin, it all goes to him! So we can do whatever we want and it'll be his fault." So they got this completely random dude and killed him horribly in a ritual that made all grudges in the world redirect to him. Then the rest of the people could do crazy Roman empire shit that would make Slaanesh vomit and they're completely innocent because all the sins go to the scapegoat.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 22:36:58 2011 No.7592954 >>7592941 >How do the Homunculi even see the Einzberns? how are they treated? they are part of the Einzbern family think of them as Servants without free will like Ilya's maids

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:37:58 2011 No.7592958 >>7592929 When i mean "who killed him" i mean who killed him when he was summoned.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 22:38:57 2011 No.7592968 >>7592958 Avenger was killed by other servants for being too weak to fight.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:40:59 2011 No.7592974

>>7592958
We don't know. We just know that that he was summoned, but of his backstory and what the Einzberns had for intentions, and that the grail got corrupted in the end. And that the Edelfelt family was in the war and that no one gained anything from the war.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:41:30 2011 No.7592981 someone answer this >>7592863 and How did avengers wish get granted if he lost.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:42:30 2011 No.7592992 >>7592981 Avenger himself is a wish. His very existence is a desire for Angra Mainyu to be real. Servants go into the grail when they die. He is a servant. And he is a wish. When he died, he went into the grail, and the grail heard a wish.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 22:43:01 2011 No.7593003 >Why did Kiritsugu give them his sperm? Alpha as fuck

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:45:01 2011 No.7593016

>>7593003
But why? its not like he had sex with her right? I thought she didnt have anything down there.
>>7592992
Why did he want to be "all evil" anyway, it wasn't he wish to begin with, he was just forcibly chosen, when he was summoned, is there any info on how he acted?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:48:01 2011 No.7593036

>>7592981

>How did avengers wish get granted if he lost.

Avenger's whole deal was that he died so he could take on everyone's sins. In death he became more than simply a man, he became a great demon (or so the people who carried out the ritual believed). You could say it's the basis for his whole legend.

What happens when a servant is summoned in a grail war? They tend to take on something from their legend as an NP.

Avenger got one that suited him: when he died he took on everyone's sins. And since when a servant dies their soul returns to the grail, guess where all that evil ended up?

Another possibility is that something that was wished for by the population of the entire planet effectively shouted down everyone else in existence for that particular wish.

Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 22:48:01 2011 No.7593039
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>>7593016
>I thought she didnt have anything down there.
Iris was actually pregnant from bearing Ilya
>is there any info on how he acted?
Avenger is pretty much a jerk/troll/bum in Hollow Atraxia

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:49:32 2011 No.7593043

>>7593016
Belief in the Nasuverse has a fuckton of power if you get enough people to believe something hard enough.
All the people around him began to believe it, so it eventually became partway true.
Besides, Avenger was such a bro, that he was okay with all the shit happening to him because it would let everyone else become happy and save everyone else.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:50:32 2011 No.7593046

>>7593016

>Why did he want to be "all evil" anyway, it wasn't he wish to begin with, he was just forcibly chosen,

He didn't.
His very existence is a wish that was forced upon him. He was made into the wish that Angra Mainyu is real.

It is not "his wish". He IS the wish.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:54:03 2011 No.7593082

>>7593039
Wait wtf he reappears in Hollow Atraxia,why?, is that the same one or a different avenger?
>>7593039
How was she fucking pregnant if she was a homunculi.
Also So true Assassin has no true name? He was just a random guy part of the 19 Hassan i Sabbah? And not until the 4th grail war, after avenger was summoned, they could not be summoned because they are not considered heros?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 22:56:04 2011 No.7593097

>>7593082

>So true Assassin has no true name? He was just a random guy part of the 19 Hassan i Sabbah?

He was, but he gave up his name and identity when he took the name Hassan.

>And not until the 4th grail war, after avenger was summoned, they could not be summoned because they are not considered heros?

They are considered heroes. At least, some of them are. Maybe not all of them.
But Hassan was revered as a champion of his people in the crusades, striking fear into the hearts of the "invaders".

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:01:03 2011 No.7593125 >>7593122 there*

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:01:34 2011 No.7593122 So are their any nazi mages during the 2nd or 3rd war? Did hitler know about the holy grail? I heard there were nazis in one of the wars.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:03:04 2011 No.7593136

>>7593122

From Fate Complete Material:

1930s
Third Grail War
Held on the eve of WWII. There were battles over the Lesser Grail with the Imperial Army and the Nazis as well, and the fighting unfolded in the Imperial Capital, but the Lesser Grail was destroyed and the ritual failed. The evocation site of the Grail was at Fuyuki Church. Angra Mainyu was taken in and the Greater Grail was contaminated.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:04:34 2011 No.7593138 >>7587099 That's just how motherfucking Tohno Shiki rolls.

Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 23:04:34 2011 No.7593140
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>>7593082
>Wait wtf he reappears in Hollow Atraxia,why?, is that the same one or a different avenger?
It's the same Avenger(He possesses Shirou's body during the night)

In Hollow Ataraxia, he creates a looping dream world to save a certain girl from dying

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:06:34 2011 No.7593146 >>7593136 oohhh shit, he better make a vn out of this. >>7593140 Why would he want to save her? was that his master in the 3rd war?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:09:04 2011 No.7593163 >>7593146 >Why would he want to save her? Because rather than the sum of all evils, Avenger is really more of a bastard with a heart of gold. >was that his master in the 3rd war? Lancer's from the 5th, actually.

Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 23:10:34 2011 No.7593167
File: 39 KB, 800x600, 1310181008525.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Why would he want to save her? was that his master in the 3rd war?
Avenger needed someone to Soul Search with

Bazett is Lancer's True Master, who Kirei killed before the game's timeline

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:14:04 2011 No.7593195 >>7593193 what does he*

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:14:34 2011 No.7593193 >>7593167 >>7593163 What he he have anything to do with her, wouldn't it really be lancer who would want to care for her? how did avenger even get summoned again and where did his looping dream powers come from if he was just a normal human.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:16:05 2011 No.7593210 So how old is Zelretch,how does he live so long, how much longer can he live? Does he train anybody to use the same magic as him? Does he rule the magic world or something?

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 23:18:34 2011 No.7593215 >>7593210 Zelretch is bitten by a vampire He wants to see if someone could attempt his Kaleidoscope magic

>>	Shark End Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:20:35 2011 No.7593221 Admit it, it happened to you.

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:22:05 2011 No.7593234

>>7593215
So is he considered a mage vampire or just a vampire? when he was bitten, did it make him even more powerful? why don't all mages just get bitten by a vampire? Like Zōken, instead of that thing that fucks with his soul, why didn't he just get bitten by a vampire?

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 23:23:05 2011 No.7593244 >>7593221 I had to pull a flowchart after that

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 23:25:35 2011 No.7593250 No Vampires in Fuyuki

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:28:37 2011 No.7593270 >>7593250 couldn't he just give up and leave then? I mean who gives a fuck about the holy grail if all you want is to live longer, all zoken wanted was to live longer anyway, so why didnt he think of it?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:30:35 2011 No.7593278

>>7593193

Avenger gets summoned all the time now. He's fused with the grail.

>>7593234

>So is he considered a mage vampire or just a vampire?

He's a vampire that works as a mage.

>when he was bitten, did it make him even more powerful?

Less powerful. A lot less powerful.

>why don't all mages just get bitten by a vampire?

Because they can't really use magic when vampirized. Vampirism has its own problems. There's no guarantee you'll be a high level vampire, you could just wind up a zombie. You end up a slave to whoever bit you. And then there's the fact that it doesn't prolong your life permanently. Some have tried. Nrvnqsr is a mage that did so. But he's falling apart and he was exceptionally lucky.

>Like Zōken, instead of that thing that fucks with his soul, why didn't he just get bitten by a vampire?

In his case, turning into a vampire probably would've brought about his problem a lot sooner. And his rate of decay would be pretty quick. In a sense, he is a vampire. He's just a special variety that happens to be better at it than most others. You might not have noticed, but the run of the mill fictional vampire isn't really the norm when it comes to major characters.

>>	Freezing !I8PjSaya5Y Fri Jul 8 23:31:11 2011 No.7593285 Zouken originally had a wish for humankind He lost sight of that wish and wanted to become truly immortal from the grail instead. Also, Zouken's body spoiled faster and faster with each consecutive posession

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:34:37 2011 No.7593299 >>7593278 So vampires cannot use magic, is it just because Zelretch was so powerful as a mage, he kept some of his power? Why do you lose youe magic when you become a vampire? do you lose your magic circuits or something?

Anonymous Fri Jul 8 23:41:38 2011 No.7593329

>>7593299

>is it just because Zelretch was so powerful as a mage, he kept some of his power?

A little of that, a little bit because of how it happened. He was bitten by a True Ancestor. That happens to be a shortcut to bullshit vampire levels. When you're a bullshit vampire, bullshit happens. Just look at Roa.

>Why do you lose youe magic when you become a vampire? do you lose your magic circuits or something?

They're still there, it's just that part of magic involves channeling your "internal life energy".

When you're dead, you don't exactly have a lot of that stuff. So unless you happen to be a special variety of vampire magic doesn't happen. And if it does, it frequently tends to be a different kind of magic since the whole "being undead" thing happens to move you to a different "class" than you were in while alive.

And if you had a crest, that's probably not working anymore. So you just went all the way back to level 1.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 00:15:48 2011 No.7593446 What do all of the mages,vampires,the chruch, the association, etc think of science in the nasuverse?

>>	None !Nipaa0mi0. Sat Jul 9 03:12:29 2011 No.7594049 >>7592863 In Fate/Zero it says he fucked and impregnated Irie and then the Einzberns modified her fetus in utero.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 9 12:38:12 2011 No.7595596 File: 463 KB, 1116x1600, 1310229487984.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

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