/jp/ - Otaku Culture

[Anonymous No.]

I finally read Higurashi Rei. So like Bernkastel is real?

[Anonymous No.]

only if you believe in witches

[wtH !hWtHG71Z1c No.]

test

[wtH !hWtHG71Z1c No.]

erthjfvc ide4rcv uuf4 4erdfcv ucvfre5

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7141750
The Bernkastel in Higurashi is real but the one in Umineko is not.

[Anonymous No.]

No, it is all a hallucination in Rika's head. She never died or went "across worlds", "Bernkastel leaving her" was her schizophrenia lightening up.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7142542
But Higurashi is just a fiction in Umineko universe, just like Bern there.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7142564
And Umineko is fiction in our world. I guess that Batora isn't real either.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7142568
Yes, but it's an entirely different layer of fiction.

[Anonymous No.]

Illusion to Illusions

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7142572
That's irrelevant. She's real within the context of Higurashi.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>7142593
And Bernkastel is real in the context of Umineko meta. So it's your post that's irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7142603

[Anonymous No.]

>>7142608

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7142606
When people say "Umineko" they don't mean the metaworld. By your definition everything in Umineko is real which is meaningless.

Bern is real in Higurashi because she's an actual character in the story as she's the 100 year-old Rika.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143239
>When people say "Umineko" they don't mean the metaworld. By your definition everything in Umineko is real which is meaningless.

So is Bern, she's real if you believe in Meta and stuffs


Btw, Higurashi and Umineko were pretty much officially connected in Tsubasa

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143242
Which contrasts what Ryuukishi said about them being unconnected fictional universi.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143250

He never said that.

He was vague and said Higurashi doesn't help you solving Umineko

[Anonymous No.]

I think Ryuukishi wants us to meditate about that (like with everything), thats why he gives fact for and against it, then we have to make up our minds on our own.

I think whats important is what we feel about it and make a logical structure, either yes or no.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143242
You mean the extra TIPS such as ΛΔ's diary? Battler is a fan of Higurashi so it wouldn't be surprising if he used a similar character in his own stories/delusions. There's no need for an entity that transcends the two worlds.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143250
and ABe said haibane renmei had nothing to do with religion

the way I understood it from umineko was
>featherline has game with lambda
>featherline gets stuck in logic error
>featherline tells rika to figure this shit out
>1000's of years of weeks later
>rika is jaded and broken, and becomes bernkastel
>bernkastel figures the shit out and calls "hanuu" back to fix the shit
>game ends, team featherline and bern "win" over lambda/takano, everyone continues on their way
>bern finds beato/battler "game"
>lambda finds bern
>featherline finds bern

[Anonymous No.]

None of this shit makes any sense

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143321
Rika is only 100 years old. And, if Umineko rules applied, Rika was the detective of Higurashi so why would she be the one stuck in a logic error?

[Anonymous No.]

There was no logic error in Higurashi, these kind of things can only happen in fictions.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143365
>>7143368

[Anonymous No.]

an english patch for higurashi rei somewhere ?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143505
Nothing is in red.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143365
>Rika was the detective of Higurashi

Are you the one that believe Higurashi followed Knox?
>>7143505

I think the GM was probably Hanyuu. She started the whole shit by using her powers, but she ended up doing shit.

[Anonymous No.]

You guys do know that by saying that Rika was the detective and Hanyuu the GM you are saying that Higurashi was simply a fiction in a fiction.
All these detective authority, GM, logic error, red/blue text are only pertinent in fictions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143550

How so? They exist in Umineko

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143565
They exist only in relation with FICTIONAL stories.
All these stuffs only exist in relation with the gameboard that is 100% fictional.
If you think it isn't you mistook half of Umineko.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143530
damn you people. you "its not in red" people. What makes you think that being in red makes it true? because that was said in red? Fine be that way. Enjoy your 50 lines of disjointed text. None of it is true. The whole thing is fiction. Ryukishi07 is the true "game master" and anyone reading umineko is the true murderer.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143577
According to their nature, you could trust some characters, but Lambda is not one of them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143572
>They exist only in relation with FICTIONAL stories.

But they are not, all that stuffs really did happen, since meta- exist

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143592

But why the fuck would she lie about that?
Beside, she loves Bern.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143239
Higurashi is a fiction in Umineko.
The stories with Bern in it, written by Tohya (if you wish) are also fictions in Umineko.
They are on the same layer of fiction.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143606
The gameboard is confirmed fictional in the fucking game itself, it's a fact.
And all these rules and settings only exist in relation with the gameboard.

And the meta-world isn't confirmed.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143625
say you wanted to follow the idea of "rokkenjima prime" where everyone dies except Eva, Eva raises Ange, and Ange goes on a quest to figure out what happend. Then anything dealing with Battler and Beatrice would be part of the "meta world." That would make super-paper and trollkastel (who are expys of Takino and Rika) part of the "macro world" since they extend beyond they're own games, and in a sense, a level above Umineko. To them, Umineko is a meta world.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143625

Ange remember Meta-Events, and there are things Toya and Featherine couldn't know without fucking meta.

If Meta exist, so do Kakera and so do the games.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143539
Only Knox's 4th rule is arguably violated. The mystery in Higurashi is not supernatural in nature nor is it solved via a supernatural agency.

>>7143539
We see Hanyuu's thoughts. The only reason she moved Rika's mind between worlds is because she wanted Rika to live a normal life. There's no reason to think any of the meta concepts from Umineko apply.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143672
>Only Knox's 4th rule is arguably violated. The mystery in Higurashi is not supernatural in nature nor is it solved via a supernatural agency.

I... wat

>We see Hanyuu's thoughts. The only reason she moved Rika's mind between worlds is because she wanted Rika to live a normal life. There's no reason to think any of the meta concepts from Umineko apply.

Yes. She started the game but gave up, losing sign of her goal.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143661
>Ange remember Meta-Events
That's because the real Ange probably jumped from the skyscraper and died. In this case both our endings are fictions too.

>there are things Toya and Featherine couldn't know without fucking meta.
Like what? And who will tell if they just make something up?

[Anonymous No.]

So people still think that it was some sort of multiverse or something?
Were you fags asleep during episode 7.

>>7143661
>Ange remember Meta-Events, and there are things Toya and Featherine couldn't know without fucking meta.
Touya had 30 years to look around for pieces of the truth, Ange is delusional.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143683
>I... wat
Why do you disagree?

>Yes. She started the game but gave up, losing sign of her goal.
Where is the evidence from Higurashi that this is the case? One could argue that all the Higurashi characters are in the Matrix and do so in a way that's non-falcifiable.

[Anonymous No.]

The gameboard being fictional isn't in doubt at all, it's one of the most important rule of Umineko.
That's why it's a "gameboard" and the characters are called "pieces".

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143690
Featherine/Touya think backwards. They start with (-inf<x<inf) and work towards the answer. That's why she already knows the answer, but can't actually tell what it is

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143687
>That's because the real Ange probably jumped from the skyscraper and died. In this case both our endings are fictions too.

Pic related

>Like what? And who will tell if they just make something up?

Because it's stupid
>Hurr hurr let's make a fake Ange past! Let's write the day where Beato became a true witch, even though it didn't and we don't know shit! Let write novels where we reveal the truth even though i want to hide it!

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143690
Well, it COULD be a multiverse. It wasn't explicitly denied.

>Touya had 30 years
Except he wasn't writing these stories for 30 years. If anything most or all of them were out around the time Ange was 18. The Rokkenjima discussion became popular several years after the incident, so he had few years at most.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143708
>It wasn't explicitly denied.
It was. It was directly stated that the gameboard was fiction.
And if you understand how Umineko works, you'd put it in doubt.

>Except he wasn't writing these stories for 30 years. If anything most or all of them were out around the time Ange was 18
You think he sat on his toes for 20 years?
He obviously went around "detectiving" to find his true identity and this way found the truth pieces by pieces during all this time.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143726
>you wouldn't put it in doubt
fixed

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143692
>Why do you disagree?

Yes, the culprit was found by the little girl (who isn't even the most important narrator, in fact she only narrated Rei and half of ep VII) by pure accident and not by working toward the clues and it was revealed to everyone thanks to the magical demigod with her world-jumping power

Also
>Hinamizawa syndrome

>>7143692
>Where is the evidence from Higurashi that this is the case? One could argue that all the Higurashi characters are in the Matrix and do so in a way that's non-falcifiable.

You could, but there isn't a matrix spin-off with a Takano expy telling us Rika expy past. Retcon, do you know it?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143726
>It was. It was directly stated that the gameboard was fiction.

No, it wasn't.

>He obviously went around "detectiving" to find his true identity and this way found the truth pieces by pieces during all this time.

Did also gain mind-reading powers that allowed him to read Ange mind?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143707
>Pic related
That just confirms that she's a character. It's not like Auau never talks to her own characters.


>Let's write the day where Beato became a true witch, even though it didn't and we don't know shit! Let write novels where we reveal the truth even though i want to hide it!
In ep8 GM-Battler says he has no idea of such game. We can interpret it as his real self never writing such story. You can say it was just a revelation, created by the author (or his avatar) himself. In this sense you can say meta exists as a world of concepts, but it doesn't mean magic and shit exists.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143735
>Retcon, do you know it?

That's almost the WHOLE POINT of Umineko. If someone in the future comes up with a better explanation or a more interesting story, it destroys the old one. That's why it's not "Umineko, the story of a psycho maid who kills her employers" but "Umineko, the legend of the golden witch"

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143726
>He obviously went around "detectiving" to find his true identity and this way found the truth pieces by pieces during all this time.
Again, he had no 20 years. 10 at most. And no, he didn't. He discovered his identity rather quickly, but didn't want to accept it. He went not "detectiving", but visiting doctors trying to forget everything.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143735
Rika solved the mystery by talking to Mr. Delicious, who told her that Takano's time of death did not match the time of her disappearance. That combined with the fact she had previously eliminated the Sonozakis as suspects presented her with the solution. Looks like detective work to me. Hanyuu didn't tell her the answer in Minagoroshi-hen.

And Higurashi has a Ciel expy and K1 talks about Irie's reality marble. I guess that means Higurashi is part of the Nasuverse.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143762

She did these things because she had MAGICAL knowledge from her previous MAGICAL experience

>I guess that means Higurashi is part of the Nasuverse.

You are an idiot.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143780
The supernatural is a narrative framing device in Higurashi. It neither caused nor solved the mystery. A supernatural solution would have been for Hanyuu to follow Takano and Tomitake and then report what she saw to Rika.

And how are Higurashi references in Umineko different from Nasuverse references in Higurashi?

[Anonymous No.]

Is Umineko the story of

>Surving Battler writing fanfction

or

>Surviving Meta-Battler writing his memories?

Either answers are fine, since the meta-world and the gameboard support each other. That's the whole point of Umineko.


though, i'd like to know what anti-metafags think of the final scene, and why Toya appears only in the "magic" ending

[Anonymous No.]

I'll just enjoy my Higurashi and pretend that Umineko was never written.

[Anonymous No.]

In an inception sort of way, its kinda like this...

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143790
>The supernatural is a narrative framing device in Higurashi. It neither caused nor solved the mystery. A supernatural solution would have been for Hanyuu to follow Takano and Tomitake and then report what she saw to Rika.

Which it's exactly what he did in the end, Hanyuu reported everything she saw in the previous kakera to Rika

>And how are Higurashi references in Umineko different from Nasuverse references in Higurashi?

Maybe because they are inserted there for the lulz, why Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are "serious" Higurashi characters see>>7143242

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143798
Only after they mystery had already been solved without supernatural means. She didn't provide the solution out of the blue.

>>7143798
The Higurashi Bern is quite different from the Umineko Bern and ΛΔ doesn't even appear in Higurashi.

[Anonymous No.]

>Only after they mystery had already been solved without supernatural means. She didn't provide the solution out of the blue.

You meant "it was solved by Rika using her supernatural knowledge"

>The Higurashi Bern is quite different from the Umineko Bern and ΛΔ doesn't even appear in Higurashi.
>Frederika Bernkastel
>Both like spicy foods
>Both act similar to trollis mode Rika
>Both have been associated with cats
>Both counted the years
>Bern said she was going to do shit with her "friends" at the end of Higurashi
>Bern said Featherine was the one who corrupted her, implying she was a little different before
>All these things for you are irrelevant and you are comparing it to Keiichi giving a F/SN reference

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143824
The information was collected without supernatural means. And in any case, Knox's rules only refer to supernatural agencies, which there aren't any.

Battler is a fan of Higurashi so it wouldn't be surprising if he used a similar character in his own stories/delusions. There's no need for an entity that transcends the two worlds.

Higurashi Bern is the Rika we see. And by "friends" Rika meant Keiichi et al.

[Anonymous No.]

>lambdadelta
>not in higurashi

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143865
Nomura/Takagi is a witch? Prove it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143843
>The information was collected without supernatural means.
The information was impossible to collect without supernatural means. Trial and error over countless repetitions, from different places at the same time, with an understanding of causality that's completely beyond what a normal person could ever hope to achieve.

That's extremely fucking supernatural. No one person with one attempt could ever get such a result under the best of circumstances.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143876
Your saying that- oh sorry

>implying all mysteries must be present day present time present technology and MUST NOT blend into any other genre

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143743
It really was. Reread episode 7.

You can put the existence or nonexistence of Bern/Lambda in doubt if you want but saying that the gameboard isn't fiction is simply denying facts.
It's you vs R07 there

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143876
My point is that the information was obtained via non-supernatural means and then the culprit deduced based on that. Rika didn't talk with the spirits of the dead or consult with a deity to realize that Takano was the culprit in Minagoroshi-hen. In Himatsubushi-hen Hanyuu reveals to Rika what Rika had already previously deduced.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143904

But it did anything but that, it provides us with a kakera with Lion, and even said that Clair games were "dangerous" because she could have been discovered easily. They are treat as real events.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143875

She doesn't have to, she could be just Lambda's piece that helped Takano.

In the novel, she's described like a divine figure "an angel, or a devil", i can see it.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143934
The kakera of Lion is fiction as well, it's fucking stated that kakera mean fiction.
Just how far do you want to go to deny simple shits that were stated in the game itself?
Seriously stop being so delusional.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143916
There's nothing supernatural in that once a loop starts, nothing specifically out of the ordinary occurs.

The fact that a loop can start in the first place, however, is what contributes to the accumulation of information.

Let's try something simple. If I go to a friend's house, I'll know, say, what he's having for dinner, but I won't know what another friend is having for dinner at their house.

If time loops, and I go through the same series of events again, but go to the other friend's house, I now know what both of them had for dinner.

I didn't do anything supernatural to obtain either piece of information, but by obtaining both, I definitely have.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143937
To Takano she seems like either an angel trying to help her or a devil trying to tempt her. That doesn't make her a supernatural entity and there's no evidence she's a pawn of a supernatural being. To me this looks like you are trying to shoehorn Higurashi into Umineko.

[Anonymous No.]

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7143951
Yes, Rika retains information via supernatural means but gathers it through mundane methods. That is my point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143963
Every repetition beyond the first is supernatural.
Every opportunity to gather information beyond a human's normal life is supernatural.
Using information a normal human could never have to obtain even more information... you get the idea.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143949
>The kakera of Lion is fiction as well, it's fucking stated that kakera mean fiction.

Again, it wasn't.

It COULD be a fiction. Or fragment.

Really, i don't understand why people deny meta, when Ange itself has meta-knowledge, the last two games put such a great deal on meta (Shkanon development and Clair reasons) and the game ends with Batora reaching the golden land.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143986
Probably because the metafiction stuff is basically the CORE of Umineko and denying it is simply proving you didn't understand shit?
EVERYTHING point to fiction, the narrative points to fiction, the themes points to fiction
Honestly I can't believe some people can miss such obvious stuffs, grow a brain already.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7144000

Everything is a fiction by R07.

You wasted your time reading Umineko, genius

seriously, i think even R07 can did better than "none happened it was all a dream

[Anonymous No.]

>>7144017
You have the sensibility of a chimpanzee, seriously.
R07 didn't invent meta-fiction, he isn't the first to do the "it was all a dream" shit.
Some of the most famous stories did the same, do this mean they were irrelevant?
Saying "since it was fiction nothing matter" is completely missing the point.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7144045
>R07 didn't invent meta-fiction, he isn't the first to do the "it was all a dream" shit.

No shit.
Btw, no one likes "it was all a dream" ending, because in most of the cases they sucks and tend to nullify everything that happened


>Saying "since it was fiction nothing matter" is completely missing the point.

How so? Nothing happened, these characters are fictional in their own universe. Beato never suffered and Battler never cried screaming once he reached the truth, why should i care?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7141750
>mfw at glance those seemed to be Rika's arms and not legs

[Anonymous No.]

>>7144076
What is important isn't what happened to the characters or what they felt.
What is important is what they conveyed to the "reader" be it the real one or the one in the story itself.
For example in Umineko it would be Ange.

That's how these stories work.
Honestly I think Umineko did it pretty badly, but it did do it.
It's not even something you have to look deeply to find, what R07 tried to do is really obvious.
Once again stop being delusional please

[Anonymous No.]

>>7144089
>What is important isn't what happened to the characters or what they felt.

Are you fucking joking?

>What is important is what they conveyed to the "reader" be it the real one or the one in the story itself.

They conveyed that 90% of the shit they read, a novel like 2x5 time the LotR was a huge wast of time and the characters they spent 8 novels with didn't fucking matters

>For example in Umineko it would be Ange.

Ange is shit


>It's not even something you have to look deeply to find, what R07 tried to do is really obvious.
Once again stop being delusional please


Yeah, that's why he filled Chiru the characters feelings, Yasu and Lion fate, Clair, and was obviously trying to make us feel sorry for all of them.

>Once again stop being delusional please

Please, stop ignoring story segment for "hurr hurr it's all fiction so it doesn't matter if Ange has meta knowledge or it ends with everyone in the golden land"

[Anonymous No.]

>>7144076
>they sucks and tend to nullify everything that happened
So that's it. You just don't like it.

>How so? Nothing happened, these characters are fictional in their own universe. Beato never suffered and Battler never cried screaming once he reached the truth, why should i care?
Why should you care about ANY fictional story, be it the top layer fiction or fiction inside a fiction? It never happened!

[Anonymous No.]

>>7145628
>Why should you care about ANY fictional story, be it the top layer fiction or fiction inside a fiction? It never happened!

Why are you even here?

[Anonymous No.]

>>7145628
There is a difference between fiction and 'fiction within fiction'.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146097
No, not really. Especially if those fictions inside a fiction were presented as general fictions first and you should have felt all there's to feel from reading them.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146232
>No, not really.

YES

You grow attacked to a fictional character in his fictional world, only later to discover this characters was fictional in his own fictional world, and therefor he didn't even matter

It's shit

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146258
He did matter in his own fiction, just like the characters in a bigger fiction.

[Anonymous No.]

I HATE IT THEREFORE IT COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED
Awesome argument there

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7145628
I found it annoying that after trying for years to piece together the underlying truth we are told that what really happened didn't matter. And we have no idea how true to reality either Yasu's or Battler's depictions of the characters and/or events are. Yasu only met most of them once a year and barely interacted with them while Battler had last seen his family when he was 11 and had amnesia on top of that so we can't really rely on the information we were presented to come to conclusions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146399
>ars to piece together the underlying truth we are told that what really happened didn't matter. And we have no idea how true to reality either Yasu's or Battler's depictions of the characters and/or events are. Yasu only met most of them once a year and barely interacted with them while Battler had last seen his family when he was 11 and had amnesia on top of that so we can't really rely on the information we were presented to come t

That, or Meta Exist and everything is true

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146410
>Meta Exist and everything is true
Which would mean going lalala I'm not listening to everything Ryuukishi has said in the past few games.

[Bern !FAGetWqs1I No.]

And here I thought we could have a nice Bern thread without it degenerating into an argument.

Best character gets no love at all...

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146417

I still think we can have a nice Bern thread.

[Bern !FAGetWqs1I No.]

>>7146427

I'm not sure whether or not I should be afraid of her if she looks at me like that while naked.

[None !Nipaa0mi0. No.]

>>7146410
So you think that the underlying Umineko universe is modeled after the interactions between mystery novel authors and readers? That e.g. Heaven has divisions of beings whose job is to enforce the guidelines of early 20th century mystery authors?

[Bern !FAGetWqs1I No.]

>>7146435

SHUT UP AND POST BERN

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146417
>best character
>Bern

you're so silly, nonbeatofag

at least you're not a jessicafag

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146427
>Bern
>nice

Man, how can you use these two words in the same sentence?
Nothing related to Bern will be nice.
Never.
Never, never, never

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146435
>So you think that the underlying Umineko universe is modeled after the interactions between mystery novel authors and readers? That e.g. Heaven has divisions of beings whose job is to enforce the guidelines of early 20th century mystery authors?

Yes

[Bern !FAGetWqs1I No.]

>>7146600

Bullshit. She rapes you with nothing but the best intentions.

[Anonymous No.]

>>7146399
We were trying to solve the mystery fictions. They were solved. Maybe the solution was retarded, but still solved. What lies beneath them is just a subplot for Ange and not really important.

It's like you learned that Higurashi was just a fiction in Umineko universe and therefore doesn't matter, because that never actually happened. Didn't you enjoy it regardless?
Suppose that in that universe there is an actual Hinamizawa and the girl was really killed there, but without any intricate plots and diseases. Does that story really matter and interesting?

[Anonymous No.]

You will never have Bern lay on you after raping your argument and having cats tear off your arm

[Anonymous No.]

>>7143326
Welcome to the club.

[Bern !FAGetWqs1I No.]

>>7147428

Says you.

[Anonymous No.]

[Anonymous No.]